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Author Topic: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane  (Read 1217 times)

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Offline crashlander

  • Starship Captain and hyperspatial tourist
  • Global Moderator
  • Brownlow Medallist
  • Live Long and Prosper!
Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« on: July 16, 2017, 09:37:21 PM »
This is probably our best chance to win another game this year. Injuries have hot us badly. However, we have lost a couple of unlosable games against this mob in recent times. They also have injury problems and a young, developing list.
If we play like we did today against the Dogs we will not win it. However, if we play with the intensity we have done in recent weeks, we should win comfortably.
I wonder which Carlton will turn up? It probably won't be the one with Buckley, Alex Silvagni, Thomas or Ciaran Byrne in it.
Live Long and Prosper!

Offline PaulP

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 12:55:14 PM »
Would you prefer your ugliness served with a Navy sauce, or the hometown chef's recommendation, yellow/blue/maroon pewk ?

Unless we try and play more attacking, we're just marking time this season.

The "park the bus" style gives the impression that "we're in the contest", and numerically that's probably fair enough. But in real footy terms, when we're down by three goals, the opposition knows that's almost a winnable lead, because scoring three goals for us (especially late in the game) is like 5 or 6 goals for other teams.

I'm hoping that the evolution in our game style happens sooner rather than later.

As to this game, Brisbane by 2 goals.
2010, 2011 HAPPENED !
2014, 2015 HAPPENED !
2013 WAS NOT MERIT BASED !

Offline kruddler

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 06:09:18 PM »
Would you prefer your ugliness served with a Navy sauce, or the hometown chef's recommendation, yellow/blue/maroon pewk ?

Unless we try and play more attacking, we're just marking time this season.

The "park the bus" style gives the impression that "we're in the contest", and numerically that's probably fair enough. But in real footy terms, when we're down by three goals, the opposition knows that's almost a winnable lead, because scoring three goals for us (especially late in the game) is like 5 or 6 goals for other teams.

I'm hoping that the evolution in our game style happens sooner rather than later.

As to this game, Brisbane by 2 goals.

...and i was criticised for my negativity?!

We can't kick a winning score.
so
We try and stop the opposition from kicking one.

Its not rocket science, we don't have the cattle to play all out attack.

Offline PaulP

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 06:13:20 PM »
...and i was criticised for my negativity?!

We can't kick a winning score.
so
We try and stop the opposition from kicking one.

Its not rocket science, we don't have the cattle to play all out attack.

I'm not asking for all out attack - an occasional change of gears might be nice. The 1st q of the Doggies game gave me hope :
- down the corridor - check
- move the ball quickly - check
- scoring a few goals early - check

How hard can it be ? Is Bolton assessing the list properly, or is he simply operating within his own comfort zone ?
2010, 2011 HAPPENED !
2014, 2015 HAPPENED !
2013 WAS NOT MERIT BASED !

Online laj

  • Captain
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 06:22:20 PM »
Would you prefer your ugliness served with a Navy sauce, or the hometown chef's recommendation, yellow/blue/maroon pewk ?

Unless we try and play more attacking, we're just marking time this season.

The "park the bus" style gives the impression that "we're in the contest", and numerically that's probably fair enough. But in real footy terms, when we're down by three goals, the opposition knows that's almost a winnable lead, because scoring three goals for us (especially late in the game) is like 5 or 6 goals for other teams.

I'm hoping that the evolution in our game style happens sooner rather than later.

As to this game, Brisbane by 2 goals.

That won't start changing until next year. It's the way Clarko did it when he first started at Hawthorn and Roos at Melbourne. Eventually offence was blended in. Patience is a virtue.

We've been more than just in contests, we have been in front 5 times in the last qtr and lost. That's more than numerical. In the unlikely event we were theoretically able to win all 5 then we'd be equal 4th. Not as far off as we think but with our injuries, as well as the young bloke getting tired, we might struggle the rest of the year. Reckon we can have a second win in Qld this year though.

Offline kruddler

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2017, 06:37:25 PM »
I'm not asking for all out attack - an occasional change of gears might be nice. The 1st q of the Doggies game gave me hope :
- down the corridor - check
- move the ball quickly - check
- scoring a few goals early - check

How hard can it be ? Is Bolton assessing the list properly, or is he simply operating within his own comfort zone ?

If the opposition is sitting in the corridor, it doesn't matter how quick you move it, it is not beneficial to go through it.

If you can catch a team unaware, then you can use the corridor.

Why do you think we couldn't use the corridor after the 1st quarter?
Did we change our game plan?
or
Did the doggies change theirs?

I'll think you'll find it was out of our control. ;)

Offline PaulP

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2017, 07:48:17 PM »
If the opposition is sitting in the corridor, it doesn't matter how quick you move it, it is not beneficial to go through it.

If you can catch a team unaware, then you can use the corridor.

Why do you think we couldn't use the corridor after the 1st quarter?
Did we change our game plan?
or
Did the doggies change theirs?

I'll think you'll find it was out of our control. ;)

AFL footy, like most sports, is a territorial battle. The battle for territory isn't just up and down, it's lateral as well. The Doggies clogged up the corridor when we were in attack, yet paradoxically seemed to use the corridor when they were in attack.

SOS did an interview with Mike Sheahan a few years back. I don't like the interview - I thought SOS came across as cagey and evasive, but that's by the bye. One of the points he made is that as a defender, he was determined to stake out some territory on his opponent, and under no circumstances would he ever give up that territory, come hell or high water. I like this attitude very much.

The great Cats teams from a few seasons back all made a habit of owning the corridor.

I'm not suggesting we have the personnel to do it, but to at least make an effort to not surrender valuable territory so meekly might be nice.
2010, 2011 HAPPENED !
2014, 2015 HAPPENED !
2013 WAS NOT MERIT BASED !

Offline townsendcalling

  • Top Shelf Player
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 08:08:12 PM »
Selection hypothetical:  You have the choice between a 'seasoned' player who gives 110%, follows team rules and structures but can lack in the ability stakes at times or a young colt with noted potential but hasn't totally come to terms with team rules, game plans and structures. Who do you select?

Any kid who has been drafted has been elite in their local competition and exceptional at state level....and probably not used to being given a specific (sometimes minor) role to fulfill. It's a bit like the GWS situation, everyone wants to be a star and few want to be the blue collar workers.

What is the most important thing we want our kids to achieve prior to being elevated?

Offline PaulP

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 08:17:17 PM »
Selection hypothetical:  You have the choice between a 'seasoned' player who gives 110%, follows team rules and structures but can lack in the ability stakes at times or a young colt with noted potential but hasn't totally come to terms with team rules, game plans and structures. Who do you select?
...................................

Pick whichever one helps you to win the game on any given day, taking into consideration team balance and the other 21 selections.
2010, 2011 HAPPENED !
2014, 2015 HAPPENED !
2013 WAS NOT MERIT BASED !

Offline mateinone

  • AFL Player
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 08:28:53 PM »
Selection hypothetical:  You have the choice between a 'seasoned' player who gives 110%, follows team rules and structures but can lack in the ability stakes at times or a young colt with noted potential but hasn't totally come to terms with team rules, game plans and structures. Who do you select?

Any kid who has been drafted has been elite in their local competition and exceptional at state level....and probably not used to being given a specific (sometimes minor) role to fulfill. It's a bit like the GWS situation, everyone wants to be a star and few want to be the blue collar workers.

What is the most important thing we want our kids to achieve prior to being elevated?

I think you pick the player that plays to team instructions, if they both do you pick the one that has more potential.
But no player should get a game if they are not playing to team instructions, that should not be negotiable.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Offline flyboy77

  • Deputy-Vice Captain
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 08:38:14 PM »
That won't start changing until next year. It's the way Clarko did it when he first started at Hawthorn and Roos at Melbourne. Eventually offence was blended in. Patience is a virtue.

We've been more than just in contests, we have been in front 5 times in the last qtr and lost. That's more than numerical. In the unlikely event we were theoretically able to win all 5 then we'd be equal 4th. Not as far off as we think but with our injuries, as well as the young bloke getting tired, we might struggle the rest of the year. Reckon we can have a second win in Qld this year though.

A voice of reason? Surely not!
GF in 2017, then 3 flags back to back!

Offline kruddler

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2017, 06:53:08 PM »
AFL footy, like most sports, is a territorial battle. The battle for territory isn't just up and down, it's lateral as well. The Doggies clogged up the corridor when we were in attack, yet paradoxically seemed to use the corridor when they were in attack.

SOS did an interview with Mike Sheahan a few years back. I don't like the interview - I thought SOS came across as cagey and evasive, but that's by the bye. One of the points he made is that as a defender, he was determined to stake out some territory on his opponent, and under no circumstances would he ever give up that territory, come hell or high water. I like this attitude very much.

The great Cats teams from a few seasons back all made a habit of owning the corridor.

I'm not suggesting we have the personnel to do it, but to at least make an effort to not surrender valuable territory so meekly might be nice.

You have 2 options as an afl club.

1. As you suggest, play the territorial game: They can't score if they can't get into their forwardline.
or
2. Play the keepings off game: They can't score if they don't have the ball.

End game is to play the keepings off game in your forwardline until you can kick a goal.

How quickly it gets there and what direction it takes to get there is an ever-changing landscape based on trends of the day. Most opinions on which is best is usually a personal preference, based on what makes the better spectacle for them.


Offline PaulP

  • Assistant Coach
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2017, 07:19:04 PM »
The keepings off game is doomed to failure - we aren't skillful or strong enough to hold possession for long periods, and not skillful or strong enough to win it back repeatedly after we cough it up. If we can only hold onto the ball for 1 minute before we lose it, why not move the ball quickly forward and at least put ourselves in better field position, both to kick a goal, and also to make it harder for the opposition, because they are further from goal ?

I would argue moving the ball forward quickly works better with a limited skill set, because playing keepings off in our back half requires understanding and skills that I don't think we have, and also allows the opposition to set up far too easily.
2010, 2011 HAPPENED !
2014, 2015 HAPPENED !
2013 WAS NOT MERIT BASED !

Online ElwoodBlues1

  • Team Of The Century
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2017, 07:20:17 PM »
You have 2 options as an afl club.

1. As you suggest, play the territorial game: They can't score if they can't get into their forwardline.
or
2. Play the keepings off game: They can't score if they don't have the ball.

End game is to play the keepings off game in your forwardline until you can kick a goal.

How quickly it gets there and what direction it takes to get there is an ever-changing landscape based on trends of the day. Most opinions on which is best is usually a personal preference, based on what makes the better spectacle for them.

Keepings off at either end requires a level of skill, we have too many poor decision makers/kickers to get cute with the ball....Weitering kicking short across goal being an example.

Online ElwoodBlues1

  • Team Of The Century
Re: Rd 18: Pre Game Premonitions: Carlton vs Brisbane
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2017, 07:29:53 PM »
The keepings off game is doomed to failure - we aren't skillful or strong enough to hold possession for long periods, and not skillful or strong enough to win it back repeatedly after we cough it up. If we can only hold onto the ball for 1 minute before we lose it, why not move the ball quickly forward and at least put ourselves in better field position, both to kick a goal, and also to make it harder for the opposition, because they are further from goal ?

I would argue moving the ball forward quickly works better with a limited skill set, because playing keepings off in our back half requires understanding and skills that I don't think we have, and also allows the opposition to set up far too easily.

I agree... but Bolton would argue he is teaching defensive basics and that he wants his defense to operate as a team and his midfielders also to get back, occupy space and complete the zone.
When he is satisfied that the playing group have mastered the basics I would expect him to go to a more hybrid model and then when he has the list he wants he would adopt a more attacking philosophy.
Dont think we will ever get to the GWS full on running attack down the corridor model as Bolton strikes me as a more conservative old school coach who values a disciplined defensive unit as his best weapon..

 

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