One aspect of our game that we used to lament was our accuracy in front of goal, missing key shots at critical times.
Across the season, we have kicked
11.12
9.8
11.18
18.13
6.9
11.9
9.3 (GWS smashed us)
9.9
9.8
Yet the last 2 weeks, when we have played aggressive, creative, entertaining football, we have kicked
14.6 and 17.8
Can a change in gameplan make us more accurate??
Murphy's goal in the 3rd quarter probably would have been a miss 6 weeks ago, but yesterday it was a captain's goal at a critical time!
Moving the ball into space, coming through the middle and allowing an open forward line are all parts of this.
Under Ratten, we kicked a heap of goals from the square and now we are seeing this again. Move it quick and direct and allow players to run onto it. Or hit leading players out in front of goals.
Could it be that we are getting shots at goal in better positions due to our more direct football? Slow movement usually results in being pushed out to the wings. Fast ball movement means it goes through the middle. Pretty sure we could find some sort of graph on that on the AFL website.
@shadesy
Great minds!! :P
I think it is so different because MM was trying to change the way the blues played all together... was a long term plan that few had patience for
Mick had lost the plot mate. He was a stubborn, outdated coach on the way down and determined to bring the club with him.
Because the previous coach was wedded to an obsolete gameplan whereby we moved the ball around the flanks at a snails pace, which allowed the opposition defense to set up and organise themselves. Defense is a total field, total team issue now, which we have failed to grasp.
Control of the corridor and fast ball movement wins games - the opposite is certain failure in modern foortball.
Coupled with zero intensity from the players, an abject lack of confidence which caused players to perform basic skills poorly, playing blokes forward of the ball who either had no idea or will to run dangerous positions, no system in bringing the ball forward... I'm surprised we actually scored at all at times.
The visible difference to me is energy and spontaneity. The guys now are decisive and direct and play with a single purpose.
Under MM they looked confused and tentative a lot of the time, more worried about sticking to instruction and predetermined actions, with the accompanying fear factor of the consequences of not complying or making an error. Those shackles have simply been removed and replaced with much broader-based team plans which allow a lot more creativity and individual freedom but at the same time a single team purpose. We are playing a lot more for each other, but as has been emphasised already, early days and still a long road ahead.
PS. Just found this.......
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-06-20/confident-carlton-has-been-unshackled-barker
Can a change in gameplan make us more accurate??
Of course.
Three weeks ago we slug dragged the ball around the field in complete fear of making a mistake, under a game plan that left us hopelessly exhausted (mentally and physically) and in fear of boundary line or post match abuse or retribution.
Now we are sprinting the ball forward and giving our all our blokes more time, space, opportunities and less predictability. FMD, even Hendo looks fast!
Furthermore, the current arrangement isn't as mind numbingly boring!
In summary, the blokes are permitted to play football again!Even if Port had got that goal late in the last, our team and our game style was still 1000% more watch-able!
FFS people, we defeated a finals touted team that had everything to lose yesterday. Bryce Gibbs became an enforcer. Yet some will still be claiming it wasn't anything to do with the coach! As far as I am concerned they can lock themselves up in a cupboard and dream their dreams, in the meantime I'm happy to keep watching the current lot win, lose or draw! Football is fun again!
I think it is so different because MM was trying to change the way the blues played all together... was a long term plan that few had patience for
Standardisation is a long term losing strategy, it only works for you when all others fail at their innovations!
The first and most significant difference I see is confidence... and that leads to boldness and great care for team mates. We seldom looked confident under MM.
But it is still early days, the challenge for JB and our leadership group is maintaining this high level of aggression at the aggott and the man. Maintaining it so consistently that it becomes the norm. It must become the norm. The early signs, however, are bl00dy great.
And as I long suspected and communicated a few times on this forum of recent times, this list is not quite as bad as people have made out. Gerard Whately had it right when he said, 'ordinary'. But not 'bad' as MM would have had us believe and had me believing in the first year and a bit of his toxic tenure. An 'ordinary' list with confidence can be highly competitive and win plenty of games. Great coaches and leaders have taken 'ordinary' lists deep into September. And the opposite is also true. Shizen leadership and coaching have seen amazing lists fail grandly (Grant Thomas?).
We do need to continue to recruit and develop well over the coming 2 drafts in particular and move our list from okay/ordinary to very good.
Seems to me that our blokes believe that their new Senior Coach believes in them, whereas, it seemed to me that the blokes didn't believe that MM believed in them. In fact it seemed that MM put his own interests ahead of the players as evidenced by his early agitation to get a contract renewal, which he subsequently said caused distraction within the group and justified our failure, if that makes sense. He undermined the players confidence.
And the opposite is also true. Shizen leadership and coaching have seen amazing lists fail grandly (Grant Thomas?).
Yet some refuse to accept the coach has anything to do with it!
So many examples of dud coaches and administrations screwing the team over, Sth Melb/Sydney is littered with a similar history! FFS, they had Edelstein in charge, and we have him back that is a tell!
Let go of those teats Carlton, you are sucking down poison!
What staggers me is that, despite our obvious failings, we are close to the best contested ball and clearance team in the league but we are only just starting to play to that strength. Win the ball and rush it forward and defensive issues get negated.
What staggers me is that, despite our obvious failings, we are close to the best contested ball and clearance team in the league but we are only just starting to play to that strength. Win the ball and rush it forward and defensive issues get negated.
You mean play to your strengths and work slowly on the problems?
Radical!!!
Probably a naive view but it looks like Ratten had them playing a certain way - Mick tried for 2 years to get them to do something else with limited success.
It has taken Barker 3 weeks to get them back to playing how they were under Ratten.
I said during the second quarter when we really got on top - that was the best our team has played in nearly 2 years. Since we beat Port over there in rnd 23 2013 then Richmond in the first final.
All this talk about the gameplan fixing our goal kicking is rather oversimplistic. Sure, the trends match up, but that doesn't make it the cause.
You know what else lines up with our improved goal kicking? The appointment of a goal kicking coach! Sav Rocca could probably take a fair bit of credit for it as well i'd suggest. Levi has been a lot better since Rocca has come on board.
Sav Rocca was appointed April 13th 2016 so says an article i just found.
Levi Casboult from his debut to his last match before Rocca came on board
31.33 @48%
Since Rocca came on board
12.4 @75%
Now i'm not suggested he is the be all and end all, but i am suggesting that there is no one cause that is.
All this talk about the gameplan fixing our goal kicking is rather oversimplistic. Sure, the trends match up, but that doesn't make it the cause.
You know what else lines up with our improved goal kicking? The appointment of a goal kicking coach! Sav Rocca could probably take a fair bit of credit for it as well i'd suggest. Levi has been a lot better since Rocca has come on board.
Sav Rocca was appointed April 13th 2016 so says an article i just found.
Levi Casboult from his debut to his last match before Rocca came on board
31.33 @48%
Since Rocca came on board
12.4 @75%
Now i'm not suggested he is the be all and end all, but i am suggesting that there is no one cause that is.
Just a coincidence that we playing better then? ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Just a coincidence that we playing better then? ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
No, it's a whole range of things....as i suggested.
We have been playing a lot better since Kreuzer came back. (same exact time Barker became coach). Perhaps it is Kreuzer, not Barker not Rocca.
Our injury list is about as short as its been all year. Coincidence?
The shock of a senior coach getting the sack ALWAYS gets some improvement from the team. How long it lasts and how much improvement varies. Thats what we need to work through.
FWIW, i think its all of the above...and probably then some!
No, it's a whole range of things....as i suggested.
We have been playing a lot better since Kreuzer came back. (same exact time Barker became coach). Perhaps it is Kreuzer, not Barker not Rocca.
Our injury list is about as short as its been all year. Coincidence?
The shock of a senior coach getting the sack ALWAYS gets some improvement from the team. How long it lasts and how much improvement varies. Thats what we need to work through.
FWIW, i think its all of the above...and probably then some!
Looks pretty simple to me.
Carlton - Malthouse = Better.
Reading all the previous posts it would be easiest to just cut and paste a line or two from each before and have a detailed reason for our accuracy.
* Confidence and self belief in all players self belief, and trust in their team-mates.
* Working on goal kicking with Levi and others might be working on this too.
* Game plan that gets the ball forward and catches defenders off guard.
* Not coming through the flanks, but through the corridor to eliminate the angles.
* Players belief that the coach trusts their abilities and backs them to give everything a go.
* Its probably all these and more. The main thing is things are on the improve. Nobody can reject that. We are competitive and trying to win games rather than just play in self preservation mode. Not playing for contracts. Although until we sign Henderson, he may be looking to boost his stocks.
Looks pretty simple to me.
Carlton - Malthouse = Better.
What can i say, you're a simple man.
What can i say, you're a simple man.
You don't need to read Sun Tzu to kill a chicken.
You don't need to read Sun Tzu to kill a chicken.
Just because you kill one diseased chicken, doesn't mean you've rid the world of Bird flu.
Just because you kill one diseased chicken, doesn't mean you've rid the world of Bird flu.
I see why you loved Malthouse.
Did you write his material?
I see why you loved Malthouse.
Did you write his material?
I see why you didn't. Travelled about the level of Juddys finger in your avatar.
Looks pretty simple to me.
Carlton - Malthouse = Better.
It's not that simple.
In hindsight, of course... we now know that MM was a toxic fit for our club for many reasons, Swann - you are not blameless. Pig's Arse did the same to us with Pagan.
There is something bigger than coach removal happening here.
This is not CFC - MM = better, this is:
CFC + no more quick fixes + aligned Board + bona fide Presidential leadership + CEO leadership + player leadership group influence + ruthless commitment to success = better.
Well done Baggers. You took a mans simple formula and turned it into the quadratic equation. Way to burst a mans bubble there. ;D
No more quick fixes????
If everything is fine now it's the "quickest bloody fix" in history :D
There is still work to do
Much work ;D
No more quick fixes????
If everything is fine now it's the "quickest bloody fix" in history :D
There is still work to do
Much work ;D
Yes, so much work to do, but our foundation of stock looks better and it means there are less heads to roll at the end of the season. The depth just looks a little better. Lets see how we go in the next 5 to 6 games.
It's not that simple.
In hindsight, of course... we now know that MM was a toxic fit for our club for many reasons, Swann - you are not blameless. Pig's Arse did the same to us with Pagan.
There is something bigger than coach removal happening here.
This is not CFC - MM = better, this is:
CFC + no more quick fixes + aligned Board + bona fide Presidential leadership + CEO leadership + player leadership group influence + ruthless commitment to success = better.
Glad you've got on board finally.
No more quick fixes????
If everything is fine now it's the "quickest bloody fix" in history :D
There is still work to do
Much work ;D
You are dead right of course Lods, but maybe, just maybe, things are not quite as bad as we thought. We will however have to see how things go for the remainder of the year to get an accurate assessment of where we stand and what we need to do.
No more quick fixes????
If everything is fine now it's the "quickest bloody fix" in history :D
There is still work to do
Much work ;D
LOL, well played Lods !! :)
How we handle this Gibbs ban will be a real tell, most of the league is divided but the MRP claims it's a 3 week offense.
Challenge it!
The game is going backwards if we don't.
Challenge it!
The game is going backwards if we don't.
Agree. Little to lose now but a lot to gain. Would be a good test case.
All this talk about the gameplan fixing our goal kicking is rather oversimplistic. Sure, the trends match up, but that doesn't make it the cause.
You know what else lines up with our improved goal kicking? The appointment of a goal kicking coach! Sav Rocca could probably take a fair bit of credit for it as well i'd suggest. Levi has been a lot better since Rocca has come on board.
Sav Rocca was appointed April 13th 2016 so says an article i just found.
Levi Casboult from his debut to his last match before Rocca came on board
31.33 @48%
Since Rocca came on board
12.4 @75%
Now i'm not suggested he is the be all and end all, but i am suggesting that there is no one cause that is.
The main cause is losing Malthouse and getting Barker. Commitment, desire, aggressive running creates space. Easier for forwards to run onto the ball in better positions on the ground to kick goals. Goalkicking coach adds icing to it. Under Mick we struggled to kick any goals this year with his outdated gameplan. Goalkicking coach doesn't help that much if you're kicking crap scores. We might kick 10 goals instead of 8 for example. Now we're kicking lots more because we have a coach with a better gameplan. Now we have a game that allows us to score goals the goalkicking coach can really be off benefit.
I listened to a short discussion about this on the ABC's 'the Huddle' and it was suggested that the players hated Malthouse. Burke said that they were clearly lying when they professed support for Malthouse.
It was a little tongue in cheek but who knows?
I listened to a short discussion about this on the ABC's 'the Huddle' and it was suggested that the players hated Malthouse. Burke said that they were clearly lying when they professed support for Malthouse.
It was a little tongue in cheek but who knows?
The players were clearly scared to make a mistake and played in preservation mode. They now have no fear as they know they need to get back into the contest and win the ball again. Your suggestion could have some value, or it could have just been fear to get the instruction wrong. Now they look like they really like the coach and want to play for him and their supporters. I wonder if our old coach is watching games and shaking his head while rolling his eyes.
If you spoke to anyone in the know they would tell you Barker is a lot harder on the boys than Mick. ;)
Maybe that's what they needed.
Who's "in the know?".
Players?
Track watchers?
Sounds like the opposite from what Dennis Armfield said ie we will no longer be punished if we make an error. I don't know I would've thought Army was in the know what do you guys think?
Who's "in the know?".
Players?
Track watchers?
Players.
Sounds like the opposite from what Dennis Armfield said ie we will no longer be punished if we make an error. I don't know I would've thought Army was in the know what do you guys think?
Ask Chris Yarran what he thinks.
If you spoke to anyone in the know they would tell you Barker is a lot harder on the boys than Mick. ;)
Maybe that's what they needed.
That says more about MM than Barker.
Some "watchers in the know" complain MM turned training into a non-contact sport!
But of course being harder can mean in a physical sense, as a disciplinarian or as outright abuse!
That says more about MM than Barker.
Some "watchers in the know" complain MM turned training into a non-contact sport!
I think you're getting Mick confused with the AFL.
I think you're getting Mick confused with the AFL.
The same complaints were made when he was in charge at Collingwood.
I think you're getting Mick confused with the AFL.
Props for this!! ;D
Ask Chris Yarran what he thinks.
Yarran has worked closely with Barker over the last two or so years, we are talking about the last three weeks.
Props for this!! ;D
The AFL had to get the idea from someone! ;)
Not exactly related to the "game plan", but I wonder whether the new found tough edge as witnessed in the Port game, comes from specific instructions from Barker himself ? He spent most of his playing career at the birthplace of unsociable football, and was also an assistant under Clarkson for a couple of seasons. I wonder if he's passed on to the boys some of the finer points of this, er....... much maligned art ?
I wonder also whether he has a bit of that John Worsfold thing happening ? The iron fist in the velvet glove. Woosha always liked that "mild mannered bespectacled pharmacist " facade, but those who saw him as a player know he was anything but. Barker has a bit of that easy going manner, but I wonder if there's more to him than that..............
Not exactly related to the "game plan", but I wonder whether the new found tough edge as witnessed in the Port game, comes from specific instructions from Barker himself ? He spent most of his playing career at the birthplace of unsociable football, and was also an assistant under Clarkson for a couple of seasons. I wonder if he's passed on to the boys some of the finer points of this, er....... much maligned art ?
I wonder also whether he has a bit of that John Worsfold thing happening ? The iron fist in the velvet glove. Woosha always liked that "mild mannered bespectacled pharmacist " facade, but those who saw him as a player know he was anything but. Barker has a bit of that easy going manner, but I wonder if there's more to him than that..............
Woosha used to be known as "The Smiling Assassin" in his playing days. Barker smiles a lot too! :))
i still think we need to change our playing style,still to many long kicks to a contest from def or to contest on the wings
Not exactly related to the "game plan", but I wonder whether the new found tough edge as witnessed in the Port game, comes from specific instructions from Barker himself ? He spent most of his playing career at the birthplace of unsociable football, and was also an assistant under Clarkson for a couple of seasons. I wonder if he's passed on to the boys some of the finer points of this, er....... much maligned art ?
I wonder also whether he has a bit of that John Worsfold thing happening ? The iron fist in the velvet glove. Woosha always liked that "mild mannered bespectacled pharmacist " facade, but those who saw him as a player know he was anything but. Barker has a bit of that easy going manner, but I wonder if there's more to him than that..............
I'm sure there are meetings and strategies and game plans and all the other stuff, but what Barker has been 100% on is EFFORT.
It's a simple message. I reckon he's been around that group a long time. He'd know every attribute of every player on the list. Which ones work hard, which ones dog it, what other clubs think about individual players.
He's no dummy and, like a lot of guys who are quite relaxed and accommodating as 2IC's, he probably wants to shake the nice guy image a bit when he's in charge.
I think he wants to be firm but fair, everyone knows where they stand and players are treated equally. Unlike MM who treated star player and his pets differently to the workers.
I'm guessing this from Perth, but it seems logical to me that the message is , do the work and you'll get your chance.
You have to be disturbed by the difference between effort.
Should always be playing for the jumper.
You have to be disturbed by the difference between effort.
Should always be playing for the jumper.
Mate you really still don't get it do you? The players had lost confidence and faith to the point where they had nothing left to give. It wasn't an attitude thing. It was a drained thing.
You have to be disturbed by the difference between effort.
Should always be playing for the jumper.
Hard to play with an albatross of a game plan hanging around your neck.
May as well asked them to play in chain mail.
i still think we need to change our playing style,still to many long kicks to a contest from def or to contest on the wings
I think the brains trust will tinker with the game plan when they get 25-30 players doing the basics right.....the players looked mentally damaged from'the Malthouse
era and need a bit of freedom to forget what they have been taught by MM which has proven to be fear of failure and a self survival attitude only.
We are now seeing some teamwork and passion on the field, good players like Henderson who looked in a daze and trance under Malthouse looked excited with the Port win..
A few small steps at a time will see the method improve..you look at a kid like Graham who didnt know where he was in the scheme of things and with a few games in a row
looks comfortable in the seniors and is not just looking on but actually contributing and is the sort of player if you watch him does look for a player rather than bomb it long.
Bombing it long is also a panic manoeuvre from players who fear to take the game on and be creative because they fear making a mistake...another Malthouse legacy that needs eradicating..
Boekhorst is a player who will benefit from Barkers attacking take the game on philosophy IMO and who will add some creative running and look to bring teammates into play rather than just bomb it long..just needs some senior games and to be told its ok to make a mistake and we wont drop you if you do....
Hard to play with an albatross of a game plan hanging around your neck.
May as well asked them to play in chain mail.
Gameplan shouldn't come into the equation. Nor emotions.
Effort is mandatory.
Ignoring the fact that players were not trying because of any factor other than the senior coach is sticking your head in the sand.
@Carrots, I think you'll find I get it, but am not understanding why, effort is conditional. I got taught to compartmentalise my feelings so when the pressure is on, you can deal.with it. Work at work. Family at home and never the twain shall impact each other, and that way performance in either department doesn't suffer.
Nick Graham showed effort. Cripps, Judd. Some of the others though just failed to even try.
Gameplan shouldn't come into the equation. Nor emotions.
Effort is mandatory.
Ignoring the fact that players were not trying because of any factor other than the senior coach is sticking your head in the sand.
@Carrots, I think you'll find I get it, but am not understanding why, effort is conditional. I got taught to compartmentalise my feelings so when the pressure is on, you can deal.with it. Work at work. Family at home and never the twain shall impact each other, and that way performance in either department doesn't suffer.
Nick Graham showed effort. Cripps, Judd. Some of the others though just failed to even try.
It's a condition called Learned Helplessness. Its a condition that's well known, researched, documented and peer reviewed.
Look it up. Basically it's a condition where, when confronted with a task that can't be completed successfully, the effort a person will give gradually diminishes until they give up.
Cork Heads game plan made games unwinnable, particularly with his repeated statements that his list was no good.
Not sure if anyone has written about the phenomenon in soccer so you'll probably have trouble understanding it.
It's a condition called Learned Helplessness. Its a condition that's well known, researched, documented and peer reviewed.
Look it up. Basically it's a condition where, when confronted with a task that can't be completed successfully, the effort a person will give gradually diminishes until they give up.
Cork Heads game plan made games unwinnable, particularly with his repeated statements that his list was no good.
Not sure if anyone has written about the phenomenon in soccer so you'll probably have trouble understanding it.
The Ox is frustrated so the Earth moves on! ;)
It's a condition called Learned Helplessness. Its a condition that's well known, researched, documented and peer reviewed.
Look it up. Basically it's a condition where, when confronted with a task that can't be completed successfully, the effort a person will give gradually diminishes until they give up.
Cork Heads game plan made games unwinnable, particularly with his repeated statements that his list was no good.
Not sure if anyone has written about the phenomenon in soccer so you'll probably have trouble understanding it.
Well, as Mick once famously quipped “Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein.”
small steps is in the right direction ,thats we want to see.
It's a condition called Learned Helplessness. Its a condition that's well known, researched, documented and peer reviewed.
Look it up. Basically it's a condition where, when confronted with a task that can't be completed successfully, the effort a person will give gradually diminishes until they give up.
Cork Heads game plan made games unwinnable, particularly with his repeated statements that his list was no good.
Not sure if anyone has written about the phenomenon in soccer so you'll probably have trouble understanding it.
Learned helplessness....
No wonder we still can't hit targets here I was thinking that tackling blokes and kicking a footy was part of the job description but it all became too hard because the coach hurt their feelings.
Yep can't wait to see what happens next time it gets hard.
Learned helplessness....
No wonder we still can't hit targets here I was thinking that tackling blokes and kicking a footy was part of the job description but it all became too hard because the coach hurt their feelings.
Yep can't wait to see what happens next time it gets hard.
If someone tells you to go get eggs from the neighbours then tells you you have to go via the Hume Hwy, then belittles you for taking too long - you may do it with some enthusiasm. crap, you may do it for a month or two with enthusiasm because dammit, no one gets eggs like you but after a while you're going to think this guy's a screwwit.
It doesn't have to be because your feeligns are hurt :-/
Yep can't wait to see what happens next time it gets hard.
You already did, when Port came at us hard in the last quarter and we had to deal with six stoppages in their forward 50m with less than a goal the difference and just minutes to go. Our boys came through with flying colours.
Thank fork Mick is gone. Man was he awful for this club.
Learned helplessness....
No wonder we still can't hit targets here I was thinking that tackling blokes and kicking a footy was part of the job description but it all became too hard because the coach hurt their feelings.
Yep can't wait to see what happens next time it gets hard.
Obviously couldn't find a soccer link.
Nothing to do with hurt feelings . It the removal of hope from a task .
For example. Right now you defend MM every time you post, but that will fall away as it becomes apparent that he was a complete screwwit and nobody (except Kruds) agrees with you.
Eventually you'll stop trying to make the argument that MM was a genius and (we hope) stop posting crap.
Learned helplessness....
No wonder we still can't hit targets here I was thinking that tackling blokes and kicking a footy was part of the job description but it all became too hard because the coach hurt their feelings.
Yep can't wait to see what happens next time it gets hard.
Time to grow a pair and actually admit you were wrong. People have problems with fragile egos. More important to be "right" than actually be right. You're right up there with MBB and Kruds on that one.
How much harder did you want it Saturday. Port came at us, got within a goal, and without another goal being kicked, we held that from over 10 minutes to win. Now that's hard when you're under the pump.
no 1 more pleased than me that we won BUT we are lucky schultz hits post 9mins to go port hit the front,hendo wasnt a mark,mitchel running through middle stuffed his kick . win a win i suppose,
You guys are one trick ponies. You got it wrong, is a far cry from thinking things through and analysing anything.
I'll give you a clue.
Chris Judd had no issues giving his all.
Why does anyone else? Why is he different?
Forget Malthouse, this isn't about him. Or you can pretend it is and that we didn't let a 29 point lead slip to a 3 point lead and you can also ignore that our first 6 goals were scores from port Adelaide's errors.
Now the game plan is a factor and currently going flat stick seems to be the way to play. Port are showing that unless you are super fit this won't always work.
What if they reduce rotations further? Will it be more open? Or more contested?
Think about it. I'm pleased and worried about a difference in commitment. it's encouraging to see, but worrying that it can return as soon as the emotional highs start to peeter out.
Thry, trust me when I say your feelings are all too transparent. Just let it go. You were wrong and all we are getting from you is your defence mechanism. The only people that aren't happy with the last few weeks are those who wanted Malthouse to stay (surprise surprise). Have not seen you celebrate our win on Saturday at all. Speaks volumes.
You guys are one trick ponies. You got it wrong, is a far cry from thinking things through and analysing anything.
I'll give you a clue.
Chris Judd had no issues giving his all.
Why does anyone else? Why is he different?
Forget Malthouse, this isn't about him. Or you can pretend it is and that we didn't let a 29 point lead slip to a 3 point lead and you can also ignore that our first 6 goals were scores from port Adelaide's errors.
Now the game plan is a factor and currently going flat stick seems to be the way to play. Port are showing that unless you are super fit this won't always work.
What if they reduce rotations further? Will it be more open? Or more contested?
Think about it. I'm pleased and worried about a difference in commitment. it's encouraging to see, but worrying that it can return as soon as the emotional highs start to peeter out.
Mick was never going to back down and admit his methods/game plan were wrong...he became selfish and put his own pride ahead of the club, the media could see it as could the majority of supporters.
Sure the Barker plan is based on going flat chat and fitness will probably limit its effect down the track but at least the players look happy and bonded and thats a starting point to rebuild the club....
Chris Judd is the ultimate professional and was able to battle on through the tough times and that says plenty about the man, less talented players fell by the wayside, kids like Graham nearly had their careers taken away by MM...Graham is now a regular yet would have been good odds to be flicked if Mick had continued on and refused to play or develop him...
Sorry we cant forget about Mick and he deserves his place alongside Denis Pagan as a coaching failure during his tenure who looked after himself first and the club second....
Mick was never going to back down and admit his methods/game plan were wrong...he became selfish and put his own pride ahead of the club, the media could see it as could the majority of supporters.
Sure the Barker plan is based on going flat chat and fitness will probably limit its effect down the track but at least the players look happy and bonded and thats a starting point to rebuild the club....
Chris Judd is the ultimate professional and was able to battle on through the tough times and that says plenty about the man, less talented players fell by the wayside, kids like Graham nearly had their careers taken away by MM...Graham is now a regular yet would have been good odds to be flicked if Mick had continued on and refused to play or develop him...
Sorry we cant forget about Mick and he deserves his place alongside Denis Pagan as a coaching failure during his tenure who looked after himself first and the club second....
X 1,000,000
MM was a cancer to this club. Once it got cut out things started to improve.
Had the support of some players, but it is clear now that he did not have support from the majority of them.
Results over last 2 weeks provides that
Suffice to say, I'm really looking forward to seeing the game this week! :)
no 1 more pleased than me that we won BUT we are lucky schultz hits post 9mins to go port hit the front,hendo wasnt a mark,mitchel running through middle stuffed his kick . win a win i suppose,
Then it would have been a close loss.
Given where we have been and where Port have been, it still would have been an acceptable result.
Suffice to say, I'm really looking forward to seeing the game this week! :)
So am I and that's a big difference to earlier in the season.
....but just a word of caution.
I think we still have a fair bit to learn about this playing group.
The change of coach and a change in the style of play has given us the opportunity to see them operate under different situations. Some we thought may have been struggling to retain a place on the list may blossom.
But we also probably need to consider the fact that somewhere in the remainder of the season we're may suffer a setback or two.
The type of intensity we bought to the Port game was great but can we sustain it?
Will the style of football we play hold up against sides like the Hawks and Freo?
If one or two of these teams do get hold of us it may be a bit of a shock to the system.
Many of us have conditioned ourselves to the belief that the dark days are behind us.
We need to treat a poor result as a bit of a reality check and not get too carried away by those results.
As long as the general trend is an improved effort and performance then we're on the right track.
You guys are one trick ponies. You got it wrong, is a far cry from thinking things through and analysing anything.
I'll give you a clue.
Chris Judd had no issues giving his all.
Why does anyone else? Why is he different?
Forget Malthouse, this isn't about him. Or you can pretend it is and that we didn't let a 29 point lead slip to a 3 point lead and you can also ignore that our first 6 goals were scores from port Adelaide's errors.
Now the game plan is a factor and currently going flat stick seems to be the way to play. Port are showing that unless you are super fit this won't always work.
What if they reduce rotations further? Will it be more open? Or more contested?
Think about it. I'm pleased and worried about a difference in commitment. it's encouraging to see, but worrying that it can return as soon as the emotional highs start to peeter out.
Agree with Thry. We need to have a look at the ladder and remind ourselves that we are really bad. To put it down to a single factor, in the context of a footy club with so many variables, is naive at best. Gameplans are overrated, and nor are players automatons. They are supposed to be professional footballers, so I find it doubful that a few kind or mean words from the head coach could so significantly influence performance without a lot of other factors in play.
I enjoyed the win alot. But we beat 10th place, and a team that is travelling badly to boot, at home, by 4 points, with frankly the rub of the green with umpiring and a bit of luck.
Malthouse clearly was not getting the best out the players, and his departure has been welcomed. There are a great many things that need to be addressed though, on top of a head coach replacement. Specifically, a 'take the game on' style of constant run and carry will not work and must be matched by team defence and tempo control. Flat out attack is easily defended against as PA are learning this year. So we can enjoy a bit of respite now, and watching some spring return is a good thing. But the club has a massive amount of work to do and should be under no illusions about the need for improvement in all areas.
I might add that the best coaches get their teams into a position where the coach no longer matters. Clarkson doesn't have to do much anymore on matchday, as he has half a team of captains out there. Likewise Geelong at their recent peak, and Brisbane in the early 2000s. Carlton right now have a lack of steel that defaults to players not being able to set their own direction very well. Its something to work on, and build, but it has more to do with the character and quality of players than whoever is coaching.
Lots of moving parts indeed.
So am I and that's a big difference to earlier in the season.
....but just a word of caution.
I think we still have a fair bit to learn about this playing group.
The change of coach and a change in the style of play has given us the opportunity to see them operate under different situations. Some we thought may have been struggling to retain a place on the list may blossom.
But we also probably need to consider the fact that somewhere in the remainder of the season we're may suffer a setback or two.
The type of intensity we bought to the Port game was great but can we sustain it?
Will the style of football we play hold up against sides like the Hawks and Freo?
If one or two of these teams do get hold of us it may be a bit of a shock to the system.
Many of us have conditioned ourselves to the belief that the dark days are behind us.
We need to treat a poor result as a bit of a reality check and not get too carried away by those results.
As long as the general trend is an improved effort and performance then we're on the right track.
For sure Lods, but I'm now a lot more confidentvthat we will go out and give it our best. OK there are better teams than us but all we can ask atm is that we take the game up to them.
I have maintained for some time that we have a middle six list that was dragged down to the bottom six by an outdated coach with an outdated approach to the game, fitness and coaching generally.
If I'm right, we should win at least a third of our remaining games.
We are not flat out attacking, not sure where this myth has come from. We are defending stoutly, tackling with intent and when we win the ball we run harder than we ever have before and try to move the ball through the middle. Yes we attack but we attack when the time is right and with purpose. Of course it's easy for one to be fooled into thinking we are flat out attacking when the previous coach had no fluent method of attack to his gameplan. Some have been 'conditioned' into thinking this is the norm over the last two and a bit years. ;)
Time to grow a pair and actually admit you were wrong. People have problems with fragile egos. More important to be "right" than actually be right. You're right up there with MBB and Kruds on that one.
Those in glass houses jimbo....
Care to explain why you lied about your alter ego? Or why an alter ego was required??
All of this talk about being 'right' coming from you of all people.
Thry, trust me when I say your feelings are all too transparent. Just let it go. You were wrong and all we are getting from you is your defence mechanism. The only people that aren't happy with the last few weeks are those who wanted Malthouse to stay (surprise surprise). Have not seen you celebrate our win on Saturday at all. Speaks volumes.
I've actually moved on Carrots.
I learned from the Malthouse experience not to demonise the previous coach (Ratten) the way I did, and to read between the lines a bit more.
You guys have celebrated this pretty hard but there is a long road ahead, and yes it's good to win and see some fight, I am a Carlton supporter who is not placated by a relatively small win in the grand scheme of things hence little celebration but if you dig deeper you'll see that I have been relatively absent in comparison to my usual activities on here.
For me personally, I'm just celebrating the feeling of having my club back. I still understand there's a long way to go but the tide has turned. We are already on the way back up.
Sure let's hope we are, and we don't slip into apathy mode again.
I'm glad we have picked a direction rather than what had been happening this year.
For me personally, I'm just celebrating the feeling of having my club back. I still understand there's a long way to go but the tide has turned. We are already on the way back up.
Everyone seems to suggest this, but not sure everyone actually believes it.
I hope i'm wrong, but i think we are a long long way off some success.
Everyone seems to suggest this, but not sure everyone actually believes it.
I hope i'm wrong, but i think we are a long long way off some success.
As I have said previously, I don't think we're as bad as we were led to believe. However, we are still a long way off a top four spot . . . even if we are a lot closer than we were four weeks ago.
We actually have a foundation upon which to build a competitive footy side.
A couple of things we need to see before we can determine whether any improvement is genuine and sustainable or whether it's just a 'rebound' effect.
The first we can accomplish this week. A good win over a struggling club.
We're on a high and an unexpected loss would be pretty deflating.
The second will be the real test.
We need to challenge sides like Fremantle and Hawthorn.
While wins may be out of reach we need to display an attitude and effort that doesn't see us blown away.
The second will be the real test.
We need to challenge sides like Fremantle and Hawthorn.
While wins may be out of reach we need to display an attitude and effort that doesn't see us blown away.
Sydney blew us away yet the effort was there. What result is acceptable?
Sydney blew us away yet the effort was there. What result is acceptable?
Gibbs, Murphy and Judd didn't play the Sydney game.
Judd's gone now but Kreuzer being back in the side seems to have made a difference.
Others have settled and are playing better.
I'd be happy if we could get within 3or 4 goals of those sides.
I'd be disappointed in a 10 goal loss.
There is a little bit of blind hope going on here. A win was most enjoyable, and a rare thing, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.
The club has only really cleared the decks these past months and started to think about building and setting direction. Of course we are on the way up. Couldn't get much lower.
With the state of our list, and our best player retiring we are in poor shape. At least 2 years away from finals for mine, and that is with good decisions being made at the draft and a good head of coaching appointed.
There is a little bit of blind hope going on here. A win was most enjoyable, and a rare thing, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.
The club has only really cleared the decks these past months and started to think about building and setting direction. Of course we are on the way up. Couldn't get much lower.
With the state of our list, and our best player retiring we are in poor shape. At least 2 years away from finals for mine, and that is with good decisions being made at the draft and a good head of coaching appointed.
Í don't think we have any idea where we're at.
I certainly don't!
That's why I'm being a little cautious in my own optimism..... but at the same time not feeling as pessimistic about our predicament as I was a few weeks back.
I think we'll learn a lot about our strength in the remainder of the season,
I think we'll learn a little bit about some individuals too.... and as we've already seen a couple of them may surprise us with what they're capable of if given a fair run at game time in suitable roles.
There is a little bit of blind hope going on here. A win was most enjoyable, and a rare thing, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.
The club has only really cleared the decks these past months and started to think about building and setting direction. Of course we are on the way up. Couldn't get much lower.
With the state of our list, and our best player retiring we are in poor shape. At least 2 years away from finals for mine, and that is with good decisions being made at the draft and a good head of coaching appointed.
I actually think our list isn't in awful shape. We need another key defender to replace Jamo and a gun small forward.
I would say 2017 would be a very big chance and some hope for next year re finals. Considering we are playing the lower sides twice this year, five more wins is not out of the question. If we can end up with eight wins by year's end with more games into blokes like Crippa and Graham that would be a huge result. With another easy draw and possibly a gun free agency player, finals for 2016 then becomes a real possibility.
As I've said before, change the coach and it can all turn around very quickly. That said we could just as easily get smashed by Gold Coast on Sunday and be back to square one! Each week that goes by will give us a better idea of where we are at.
There is a little bit of blind hope going on here. A win was most enjoyable, and a rare thing, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.
The club has only really cleared the decks these past months and started to think about building and setting direction. Of course we are on the way up. Couldn't get much lower.
With the state of our list, and our best player retiring we are in poor shape. At least 2 years away from finals for mine, and that is with good decisions being made at the draft and a good head of coaching appointed.
Our team is playing aggressive, entertaining football. They are running in waves, hunting in packs. They're rediscovering what they love about the game and it shows.
We have zero expectations on results and personally it's good to just watch the boys enjoying their football and not having to worry about crape performances and slowly getting worse.
We're going in the right direction, first step accomplished.
Maybe my optimism is saddled with the burden of experience.
It was good to see better footy played certainly, but PA were also quite poor, probably their worst game for the year. Their mistakes were dreadful.
We will learn more about the team as the year wears on, but most of last weekend's side have been on the list for a while and we know what they bring. Effort is fine, but this is the AFL. Expectations need to be for a premiership, nothing less, and there are only a handful of players we could, in all honesty, pencil in as premiership potentials.
It is going to be a tough few years, and we shouldn't underestimate the enormity of the task ahead. We need the next 2 drafts to be crackers for us and then some, otherwise cripps is going to get smashed, just like murphy did in his first few years.
There is the argument that clubs can turn it around quickly, but recent history suggest this is erroneous. The premiers of recent years have had long periods of improvement driven by sustained and consistent commitment. I hope we have the patience and pragmatism to do the same.
Go blues.
I think the brains trust will tinker with the game plan when they get 25-30 players doing the basics right.....the players looked mentally damaged from'the Malthouse
era and need a bit of freedom to forget what they have been taught by MM which has proven to be fear of failure and a self survival attitude only.
We are now seeing some teamwork and passion on the field, good players like Henderson who looked in a daze and trance under Malthouse looked excited with the Port win..
A few small steps at a time will see the method improve..you look at a kid like Graham who didnt know where he was in the scheme of things and with a few games in a row
looks comfortable in the seniors and is not just looking on but actually contributing and is the sort of player if you watch him does look for a player rather than bomb it long.
Bombing it long is also a panic manoeuvre from players who fear to take the game on and be creative because they fear making a mistake...another Malthouse legacy that needs eradicating..
Boekhorst is a player who will benefit from Barkers attacking take the game on philosophy IMO and who will add some creative running and look to bring teammates into play rather than just bomb it long..just needs some senior games and to be told its ok to make a mistake and we wont drop you if you do....
EB1, stop making so much sense, its bad for morale ;D
1 Obviously more attack through the corridor
2 Hawthorn style hardness at the man and the aggot
3 Zone defence has once again been employed.
4 Much more attacking and attractive game style
5 Transition from defence into attack has been better imo
6 Confidence up
7 Freedom to play footy as they can all play footy if they are drafted onto an AFL list imo
8 Forward press i've noticed also
9 the last 3 games have been so much more enjoyable than the last 3 years :o
10 Definitely looks akin to the way we played under Ratts, wish he would come back as a senior assistant at the very least
11 The Tractor has made a big difference as he is an extra mid, please god don't let the human bollard Warnock back next year. Harsh i know, sorry 206 :(
12 Murph playing the best footy ive seen him play for a few years
13 Gibbs suspended for hardness :o dont love that he's gonna miss or that Gray was stretchered off but love the hardness of a widely touted 'Vanilla' footballer
14 Bell having a career best season
15
CRIPPSP.s Has anyone seen or posted Cripps first 12 games statistics compared to Judds, J. Selwoods and Fyfe's first 12? early doors :D i know but wowee its hard for one to not pee a little bit with excitment
Malthouse identified it on SEN on Friday - have a game plan that suits the players, which must include allowing them to play footy.
I would think that is what you want to do - coach to your team strengths. Easier to improve strengths as that is where people are happy and confident, rather than working hard on weaknesses, which people don't enjoy at the expense of their strengths.
Pity he couldn't adapt to his own view.
Malthouse identified it on SEN on Friday - have a game plan that suits the players, which must include allowing them to play footy.
I would think that is what you want to do - coach to your team strengths. Easier to improve strengths as that is where people are happy and confident, rather than working hard on weaknesses, which people don't enjoy at the expense of their strengths.
Pity he couldn't adapt to his own view.
See this has me confused, Mick wanted a game plan that demanded precision kicking around the boundary initially to protect the corridor but we never had the list to deliver that style..after a couple of kicks we just would turn the ball over. Running the ball down the middle can bite you when you when you turn it over but its the shortest way home when you dont have great footskills and draws forwards to the footy.
If he knew we needed a gameplan that suited the players why did he persist for a while with one that didnt....???
I just switch the TV/radio to another channel whenever I hear Mick is coming on. JUst a shight talker, was never a great media performer anyway.
See this has me confused, Mick wanted a game plan that demanded precision kicking around the boundary initially to protect the corridor but we never had the list to deliver that style..after a couple of kicks we just would turn the ball over. Running the ball down the middle can bite you when you when you turn it over but its the shortest way home when you dont have great footskills and draws forwards to the footy.
If he knew we needed a gameplan that suited the players why did he persist for a while with one that didnt....???
That is incorrect.
The point of going around the boundary line was IF you can't make a precision kick, you'll get it to a 50-50 contest in which the defender will most likely knock it over the boundary line, then you start again with a throw in, but further into your territory.
In short, it was about territory and suited our lack of kicking skills to go around the boundary. If we turned it over there it was less likely to hurt us!
That is incorrect.
The point of going around the boundary line was IF you can't make a precision kick, you'll get it to a 50-50 contest in which the defender will most likely knock it over the boundary line, then you start again with a throw in, but further into your territory.
In short, it was about territory and suited our lack of kicking skills to go around the boundary. If we turned it over there it was less likely to hurt us!
Watching many of the games on TV lately, there are many teams that go around the boundary. It is the safe option, but it would have the most chance of success if you have strong contested marks at the end of each kick, which minimizes the chance of the ball going OOB, which I would have thought is more a plan B. If it does go OOB, you need a good, strong ruck and follower combination to capitalize. If you are weak in the stoppages, then it doesn't work as well.
I've always believed that contested marking and accurate kicking for goal are the two most valuable assets in AFL footy. If you have a reasonable number of players with these skills, you can beat anyone.
That is incorrect.
The point of going around the boundary line was IF you can't make a precision kick, you'll get it to a 50-50 contest in which the defender will most likely knock it over the boundary line, then you start again with a throw in, but further into your territory.
In short, it was about territory and suited our lack of kicking skills to go around the boundary. If we turned it over there it was less likely to hurt us!
That may be the theory but Blind Freddy could see that it didn't work in practice. Opposition players knew exactly where the ball was going and were able to spoil or intercept. Rather than throw ins, the ball often went straight back down the corridor, giving our defenders no chance.
Given the opportunity, Malthouse would have persevered with his outdated, ineffective gameplan regardless of the playing list and the evolution of the game.
The answer to the question 'why so different?' is blindingly obvious; Malthouse and his archaic approach to coaching is gone!
^^^^ This!!
Watching many of the games on TV lately, there are many teams that go around the boundary. It is the safe option, but it would have the most chance of success if you have strong contested marks at the end of each kick, which minimizes the chance of the ball going OOB, which I would have thought is more a plan B. If it does go OOB, you need a good, strong ruck and follower combination to capitalize. If you are weak in the stoppages, then it doesn't work as well.
I've always believed that contested marking and accurate kicking for goal are the two most valuable assets in AFL footy. If you have a reasonable number of players with these skills, you can beat anyone.
We are #1 in the competition in stoppages, which is one reason why we went with that style gameplan.
I agree accurate kicking and to a lesser extent contested marking are the most valuable.
That may be the theory but Blind Freddy could see that it didn't work in practice. Opposition players knew exactly where the ball was going and we're able to spoil or intercept. Rather than throw ins, the ball often went straight back down the corridor, giving our defenders no chance.
Given the opportunity, Malthouse would have persevered with his outdated, ineffective gameplan regardless of the playing list and the evolution of the game.
The answer to the question 'why so different?' is blindingly obvious; Malthouse and his archaic approach to coaching is gone!
That is all well and good, but you are arguing a point that was not brought up.
EB1 misunderstood the reasons behind our gameplan. I said it suited our players (lack of) kicking ability.
As for the outdated game plan....we were #1 in the pre-season for using the corridor.
Port were #1 for using the corridor and have been 'found out' this year.
Ken Hinkley was lauded by many as the best coach in the AFL last year, this year he is outdated. Malthouse won a flag in 2010, but now is archaic. Simplistic thinking at its finest.
Ultimately, the best game plan is one that involves a bit of everything, thus making it hard to defend against.
Based on my observations last week there was 1 simple instruction on how to play the game.
"Keep the ball moving forward into space at every opportunity."That is, if you can't find a teammate, find space.
In a stoppage, hit the ball into space.
When under pressure, forget about trying to pinpoint a teammate, look for space.
The players all knew this, so when someone had the ball, they were looking for space and ultimately would run onto the loose ball.
There were countless examples of this, but perhaps the most memorable was cripps handball over his head into the path of Bell running into space, goal.
The beauty of such a 'gameplan', the opposition don't know about it prior to the match. Will it work each and every week? No, opposition will work it out eventually like they have with Port.
Bottom line is that playing the way we did under Malthouse may have been designed to compensate for our lack of kicking skills or to maximise the benefits of our advantage at stoppages.....but it didn't work!
LOL "designed". The old man had run out of ideas and was just using what he knew and comfortable with - minus the Nafan additions which made it so successful at Collingwood.
No, it is not simplistic thinking.
In 2010 Malthouse had a team that had been built around his gameplan and could execute it to perfection. Even so, opposition coaches had developed tactics to counter the Collingwood style.
Five years later and the game has changed dramatically and Malthouse is trying to mould a team to a gameplan that has been left behind.
Broadly speaking, there are three factors that will determine the effectiveness of a gameplan; predictability, execution and probability of scoring. The Malthouse gameplan was too predictable (and therefore easy to counter), was poorly executed (creating scoring opportunities for the opposition) and resulted in low percentage scoring opportunities for us. It also created a culture of helplessness among the playing group who must have felt that they were being asked to play with one hand tied behind their back.
I haven't seen the team play under Barker but it seems that one of the main differences is tackling with intent, a facet of the game that was sadly lacking under Malthouse.
I suspect that Barker, now that he has freed the shackles, will tailor the gameplan to counter and exploit opposition strengths and weaknesses. It will be interesting and informative to see how we go about it today.
Under Ratten we had the reputation of being "down hill skiers". I would have got Roos, but he was not interested or available so I think Malthouse was brought in to provide a more defensive mindset. Clearly this didn't work. I think the club misunderstood the problem which is and was that the playing group believed they could pick and choose when they would try and when they would go thru the motions. This was Malthouse's failure just as it was Ratten's, Pagen's and Brittain's failure. The tackling pressure is an indication the players are choosing to have a go at the moment. The real challenge for the next coach is to make this a part of the culture of the team and the club.
Clearly every style of play will have its downside.
Going around the boundary would also involve less manic running than the "take the game on" style of play. It is difficult, as we have seen, for any club to continue with that style of play, week after week, season after season. OTOH, going around the boundary also slows down the play, making it easier for the opposition to structure their defence, flood etc.
If you have the right personnel, the around the boundary plan is a very reasonable option. If we had one forward, a ruck man, a defender, and possibly a wingman with elite contested marking like Levi, we'd be unbeatable. Clearly, this is the stuff of fantasy, but the logic behind it is sound.
Now, we don't have such a team, so we need to try something different. And fair enough too.
Probably belongs in the 'What Does Johnny Have To Do' thread but I thought to myself just a little while ago that if nothing else we need to thank JB for giving us back our football club. Yes, long way to go and much to do, but it sure does seem that the club is once again owned by the players, supporters and all those behind the scenes.
No, it is not simplistic thinking.
In 2010 Malthouse had a team that had been built around his gameplan and could execute it to perfection. Even so, opposition coaches had developed tactics to counter the Collingwood style.
Five years later and the game has changed dramatically and Malthouse is trying to mould a team to a gameplan that has been left behind.
Broadly speaking, there are three factors that will determine the effectiveness of a gameplan; predictability, execution and probability of scoring. The Malthouse gameplan was too predictable (and therefore easy to counter), was poorly executed (creating scoring opportunities for the opposition) and resulted in low percentage scoring opportunities for us. It also created a culture of helplessness among the playing group who must have felt that they were being asked to play with one hand tied behind their back.
I haven't seen the team play under Barker but it seems that one of the main differences is tackling with intent, a facet of the game that was sadly lacking under Malthouse.
I suspect that Barker, now that he has freed the shackles, will tailor the gameplan to counter and exploit opposition strengths and weaknesses. It will be interesting and informative to see how we go about it today.
Was lacking under Ratten too.
This hard hitting business is new as far as I am concerned
Maintain the Rage ;D
Good month ahead for us as we'll suffer losses and probably get beat up a bit. If the players continue playing hard footy during and beyond that, it will make a strong case for Barks.
Such a shame we don't have Judd attacking those stoppages as well...
I'm pretty sure that between now and the end of the year we'll get beat up once or twice, possibly in a bad way.
The main thing is that we learn a little from these results and they serve as a bit of a reality check to not get too far ahead of ourselves....and importantly we bounce back from them.
That's when you know you're on the right track.
Much like Barker says.... he doesn't mind mistakes as long as the second and third efforts are there.