Hi Guys.
I want to reach out to you all in order to get more information on personal experiences with the Doberman breed.
My young Family live in an area of western Melbourne that unfortunately is experiencing an increase in crime. Car jackings, car thefts in drive way or in garage, home invasions, you get the picture. Now don't get me wrong, I love my street. Very quiet, no feral bogans having parties in their garages with ac/dc blaring till all hours. Thankfully no. However I am aware hat Crime is way up and it is getting worse.
With all that said and given I am away a fair bit in the City while Mrs.Woodstock and our 8 and 4 years olds are at home, I am making enquiries with a couple pedigree breeders at the moment.
We already have a Labrador at home. As those with dog experience will know, and our girl is old and getting still at 12, Labs are the biggest softies and do not make the ideal family guard dog.
I know what I want and Dobermans appear to have the physical and temperament traits which I am after. Confident, calm, child friendly, yet when push comes to shove, will guard my family and property at a word. I am aware that there are working and non working types out there and there different requirements for each.
Do any of you have experience with this breed and are there any recommendations and insights you wish to pass on. Highly appreciated as this is a big investment for the family, in time, money and of course emotionally.
Thanks
Woody
Woodstock
I dont have experience with Dobes but I do have experience with Rottys and GSPs. The main advice I can offer is is spend the money upfront and buy from a reputable breeder. DONT buy a dog from the Trading Post, Pet Shop or the like for $300 as it could potentially cost you thousands if things like hip displacia, eye lid problems etc come along (and trust me they do). I was give the advice by the Rotty Club of Victoria at the time to buy a dog from one of there recommended breaders as they 100% guarantee their dogs are free from hereditary and "bad breeding" diseases. Try and find out if there is a Doberman Club of Victoria and talk to them (President, members etc) about the breed, known defects to look for and whether they have a list of recommended breeders. Go along to there events.
Then comes training, training and more training. These Clubs (I know the Rotty Club did) run Obedience training nights which I would highly recommend. You get to train your dog amongst people who have the same breed and trainers who know the breed intimately.
Good Luck.
My $800 Rotty cost me upwards of $5K after all the ops as he developed entropion (eye lid problem). In the end, he only lived to 6 yo as he went blind and I had to put him down so research, research, research.
Don't know much about Dobermans but I expect that they would need a lot of training. If you don't have the time or experience, it may not be an easy fit.
A Maremma might fit the bill. That's a livestock-guarding breed which won't take kindly to interlopers. You might have seen the movie Oddball which fictionalised a true story of this breed being used to protect penguins. They are very safe around the people or animals they are supposed to protect but don't like strangers. They are bred to defend against attacking wolves and will do the same against invading humans too. As most of their guarding behaviour is instinctual, the training load would be lighter. I'd imagine most of the training would involve trying to ensure they will allow guests to come in without going to DefCon5.
From your point of view, it's a bonus that they look a bit like a Lab and they get on with other animals. They might not have the immediate visual impact of a Doberman but anyone casing the neighbourhood would cross off your property anyway and a random invader would be impressed by its size and ferocity.
Had a friend that had two, one nice the other not so nice. The outcome is not always about the training, dogs have personalities unrelated to their breed characteristics.
I'd be wary of such breeds around kids, keeping in my you are responsible for your own kids as well as their friends when they visit. But that is of course true of any large dog.
I installed an automatic gate a couple of years ago. Best thing I've ever done.
My missus' family had two Dobermans as a kid. One night coming back from the neighbours' she encountered one in the driveway and it jumped up and bit her on the face - 9 stitches. I wouldn't trust the breed as far as I could spit one.
Rhodesian ridgeback we had was great with kids (if you were there), slept all day... he was a pure bred and a damn good dog but a real handful as a pup. Chewed everything including the AC piping, clothes on the line etc. They are wary with strangers unless you are there with them, they are a true guard dog. Only time Phil ever moved fast was when a burglar kicked in the back door and woke him up (he was sleeping in the cat basket). Blood trail went from the laundry to the back fence.
Like all dogs it comes down to training and socialisation. All I can say is that I wouldn't want a ridgeback hanging off your leg. Very tough breed.
I don't know if a dog can truly be a guard dog and a family pet as the two roles are kind of contradictory, particularly in some breeds, but ridgeys can do this in my experience. Be aware that they do eat a lot and the breed has a few issues, particularly a genetic defect called a dorsal sinus. Pups with the condition should be euthanized but not all breeders are reputable.
A good place to check out prospective dogs is the Melbourne show, which is on soon.
I installed an automatic gate a couple of years ago. Best thing I've ever done.
Yes good gates, locks, a loud alarm system that you actually bother to use and movement sensors lights are the best deterrents. I have a friend who is in Vic Pol and he tells me the one thing crims hate is attention. You don't need to scare the sh1te out of everyone, blind them with lumens or try to kill them, just draw attention to their activities. Even simple stuff like low voltage path lights and side lights that come on with movement will help deter them. He also says it's uncanny how many of the recent crimes are caused by people who have great house security, house doors like draw bridges, but fail to lock up their garage or laundry door.
I've had a lot of dogs, the best guard dogs we have had were a Blue Heeler and a Collie Kelpie Cross. Because they were small enough to sleep inside, smart enough to be suspicious/curious and vocal enough to offer some warning.
Was talking to my best mate who is a detective yesterday. He informed that the dog squad were taken to search a premises where known suspects that had committed house invasions hunting for cars were present. The offenders were VERY concerned about the presence of the dogs.
From stand over merchants to crying babies in seconds was his words.
German Shepherd>>>>>Doberman......so loyal and affectionate they will give their life for you and will take on any man or beast to protect you, smartest breed on the planet....they become family, will sit with you when you are ill, even to the point of laying on a bed with a sick child.
The get a bad rap because they are seen as a dog used by the police and military therefore they have to be savage.....thats wrong, they only behave how they are taught to behave and they do it well because they are smart and want to please you..
Females tend to protect the person, males protect their patch of land ie your house.......buy one from a breeder(will set you back $1200) and you will have a friend and companion for life but be aware they are an inside dog who wants to be with you and they think they are human, dont think you can stick them in a kennel out the back and leave them....
We have a female who is 7 years old and my eldest daughter has a 3 year old female and we couldnt be happier with our choice of dog.....
Hi Guys.
I want to reach out to you all in order to get more information on personal experiences with the Doberman breed.
My young Family live in an area of western Melbourne that unfortunately is experiencing an increase in crime. Car jackings, car thefts in drive way or in garage, home invasions, you get the picture. Now don't get me wrong, I love my street. Very quiet, no feral bogans having parties in their garages with ac/dc blaring till all hours. Thankfully no. However I am aware hat Crime is way up and it is getting worse.
With all that said and given I am away a fair bit in the City while Mrs.Woodstock and our 8 and 4 years olds are at home, I am making enquiries with a couple pedigree breeders at the moment.
We already have a Labrador at home. As those with dog experience will know, and our girl is old and getting still at 12, Labs are the biggest softies and do not make the ideal family guard dog.
I know what I want and Dobermans appear to have the physical and temperament traits which I am after. Confident, calm, child friendly, yet when push comes to shove, will guard my family and property at a word. I am aware that there are working and non working types out there and there different requirements for each.
Do any of you have experience with this breed and are there any recommendations and insights you wish to pass on. Highly appreciated as this is a big investment for the family, in time, money and of course emotionally.
Thanks
Woody
Greetings Woody,
Both my daughters grew up with Dobes looking after them and never had a bad incident (from the ages of 2&3 through to mid teens). Totally trustworthy and gee the girls tormented them at times. Great dogs, great temperaments and, like Ridgeback, really good with kids. BUT...
We got our Dobes and Ridgey from registered / trusted breeders who bred for temperament not show or guard. Wouldn't touch a show bred hound with a barge pole. Too much in-breeding.
Training and discipline are imperative. Most good training organisations will teach obedience and measured protection. Must be socialised from about 12 weeks. And I always only have bitches, better temperaments and more family oriented. Dogs are great for single males but you can have over protective/territorial issues with them in families.
Dobes are really energetic and don't really grow up until they're about 7 years of age! I prefer Ridgey's now as they're not only a great watch dog / family member but easy to look after and are couch potatoes most of the time. Both breeds must have good exercise daily, failure to exercise leads to boredom and frustration and that's when your garden gets dug up, sofa gets eaten, shoes get torn up... etc.
Never get a Dobe or Ridgey from a backyard breeder or farm breeder. If you live in Melbourne I would go to the Royal Melbourne Show next month and chat with the Dobe and Ridgey breeders/exhibitors. Both breeds get an unfair wrap as when properly trained you won't get a better family pet and protector.
The beauty of a Dobe or Ridgey properly trained and looked after is that they become not only a terrific family protector but wonderful family member.
Best tip I could also give you is that the critter has to know that it's at the end of line in terms of family hierarchy - good trainers will teach you and the rest of your family how to behave as the Alpha's in the family home.
When our last Dobe died (Angel), neighbours turned out for her backyard burial and cried with all of us such was her ability to discern between affection and protection. And, damn, she was smart (Dobes and Ridgey's are in the top 10 for dog smarts).
Good luck Woody, they're great breeds if you put in the hard yards for the first few months.
If the dog is dangerous to an intruder they're dangerous to your 4 year old.
If the dog is dangerous to an intruder they're dangerous to your 4 year old.
Not true of a well trained hound. The idea is not to have an attack dog as a family pet but one that firstly seeks to frighten off potential intruders with a good bark.
EB1 threw German Shepherds into the mix and although I've never had one friends who've had them speak really highly of them, but as for what I wrote before, training and good selection apply, which they made sure of.
Personally I worry about the idea of guard dogs in suburbia and would be looking at other forms of security first e.g. fences, automatic gates etc. "If they're well trained" is a term used at times but to train a dog really well needs the kind of expertise all people don't have by any means.
Some random thoughts on dogs.
You don't need a guard dog to deter people who have bad intent. Any dog that barks when it should will do the job. My late brother was a cop for 20 years and he was adamant that households with dogs were rarely targeted by burglars, etc. Neighbours' houses are also less likely to be targeted.
Since adulthood, I've had an Irish Setter, a pig dog (Bull Terrier - Rottweiler mix) and two Staffordshire Bull Terriers. They were all socialised, well-trained, good with people and protective of their family when necessary. The Irish Setter was most likely to go from warning to action and once attacked a cow that was charging me. The cow was t1ts up :)
My daughter has a young Ridgeback and she has had to get a dog whisperer's advice to get the dog to realise that it isn't responsible for protecting the children. It's all about understanding pack behaviour and making sure the dog realises that it comes last in the pecking order.
Whatever breed you decide on, make sure that it is not prone to congenital disorders - and that includes behavioural issues. Some breeds, Staffies and Shepherds are prone to obsessive-compulsive behaviour. The breeder should certify that the dog doesn't have hip displasia, etc.
Socialisation and training are vital as is being able to provide the right amount of exercise and stimulation. A bored dog can be a destructive dog.
Finally, think about getting two dogs.
Not true of a well trained hound.
Every owner of a dog that has hurt or killed a child says it was out of their dog's character. Like DJC said you just need the dog to bark not rip the intruder's throat out.
I have only ever had border collies who are the most intelligent dogs in the world but are high energy so you need to have kids.
Every owner of a dog that has hurt or killed a child says it was out of their dog's character. Like DJC said you just need the dog to bark not rip the intruder's throat out.
I have only ever had border collies who are the most intelligent dogs in the world but are high energy so you need to have kids.
Agreed, any dog that can stand on the ground and look a kid square and fair in the eyes is a risk. Dogs have only one way to express displeasure in something and it involves teeth. Secondly, the best dog in the world can have a bad day, a headache, a bruise, some pain, the sh1ts up! Large dogs should not be left in the custody of small children, full stop!
I had a friend who had two Rotties, raised together under identical circumstances. One developed a personality disorder and had to be put down. Basically as soon as the owner left the house the dog decided it was boss and would growl and snarl at the wife and kids if they tried to get it off the coach or out of the house. Not something you want from a dog that's taller than the rest of your family.
People need to understand that larger Dogs like German Shepherds, Rotties, Dobermans etc are dominant breed dogs and function in a pecking order system within the family and with outsiders. When you train them they have to adopt a position in the family and that has to always be at the bottom of the tree if you want full obedience....a dominant breed dog will assume the No 2 position in the household to the master if left to its own devices..that cant happen when you have children.
When you eyeball a German Shepherd you issue a challenge to its dominance, when my family eyeball our dog, speak firmly she knows whose boss and drops her gaze, wags her tail and looks for a command, when a stranger eyeballs her or another dominant breed does similar she stands her ground and wont tolerate any threatening behaviour...thats how they operate and you cant leave non family members/strangers with dominant breed dogs alone.
Larger Dogs are for adult families....they present a risk for small children. trained or untrained, when in doubt and it doesnt matter how clever they are they will revert to their natural behaviour which wont include many warnings like barking...larger dogs tend to attack first with a throaty growl and save the barking for later and thats why they are more dangerous especially for strangers. small children etc...
All this stuff about pecking order, alphas, and pack hierarchy is a bit passé. It emanated from the 70s when a biologist observed wolves which were in captivity in a wildlife refuge. As wolves made themselves scarce when humans went into the wild, this was a rare opportunity. What this guy saw was that the wolves acted like hardened prisoners. They fought each other to be boss and the boss had to withstand constant challenges. This researcher then theorised that dogs operated in the same way as they were, after all, descended from wolves. Back then, domestic animals such as dogs and cats weren't considered to be worthy of study, so this theory wasn't challenged. Dog trainers were happy with this 'pack leader' theory as it merely validated their way of doing their thing - using harsh discipline to show the dogs who is boss.
In fact, the behaviour of the wolves wasn't reflective of their behaviour in the wild let alone how dogs behave. In the wild, wolves live in family units. Neither the father nor the mother is the 'alpha'. They lead most of the time because they have the experience but the young wolves will take the lead on occasions if they're the best hunters, etc.. There was no 'alpha' in the sense of dominating access to resources (food, shelter, sex) with the others taking turns after the alpha was finished according to the hierarchy. Quite the contrary - the parents provided for their progeny. The wolves in the refuge were males who weren't related but were forced to share limited space and resources.
Researchers have noted that packs of stray dogs just don't form stable hierarchies and there is no domination of resources.
Dogs have been domesticated for millenia. The process of domestication has changed dogs massively. Selective breeding took wolves that were unusually friendly towards humans and reinforced this quality. A Russian researcher showed how this process would have worked by running a breeding program with Silver Foxes over 40 generations. Silver Foxes are extremely avoidant of contact with humans in the wild but he ended up with foxes which had radically changed in looks and behaviour. Not only did the foxes end up craving contact with humans but also they changed physically to appear much cuter and cuddlier while their brains grew smaller.
Dogs love eye contact with humans. Both the dog and it's master experience a release of oxytocin, the bonding drug, when their eyes meet. On the other hand, a wolf, even a pup, will not experience any positive feelings from eye contact. However much a handler tries to habituate a pup to eye contact, it won't improve the situation.
In other words, dogs bond with humans in a way that wolves simply can't. Dogs don't become part of the family because they simply slot into a hierarchical structure that mimics their "natural" structure. They bond with us as they would their own family.
Please ignore dimwits like the self-styled "Dog Whisperer", César Milan, who run with this nonsense about being the alpha or pack leader.
Of course, selective breeding has had a massive impact upon how various breeds act. Breeders have heightened territoriality in some breeds but suppressed it in others. And of course dogs will have different levels of dominance or submission even in the same litter.
My dog is large but breeders have strived for over 2000 years to ensure the breed has little territoriality and is kind to all mankind. In its area of origin, it is commonly used as a living blanket by young children. He's a good watchdog in the sense that he barks loudly if strangers approach and he appears very excited, so couriers and meter-readers refuse to come in. But he's a bad guard dog as he just wants a stroke from them if they do come in. If you want a guard dog, you need a breed with more territoriality. But that trait means they'll jealously guard humans, bones and toys as much as real estate and unwanted attacks are an unfortunate side-effect.
I think this thread basically summarize the situation, having a dog to act as a guard dog is a double edge sword, especially if you have the wrong domestic arrangements, limited time to invest and the wrong breed.
The concern in Woodstock's opening post is the line;
With all that said and given I am away a fair bit in the City while Mrs.Woodstock and our 8 and 4 years olds are at home
If he invests in one of the larger and potentially more timid breeds, note it's timidity leads to aggressive behavior, he'd want to have a lot of time available!
By the way, dominance and aggression aren't necessarily the same thing. My dog is VERY dominant. When he was a pup, I was worried that, if left unchecked, his demands would continue to escalate and he would become uncontrollable. Unfortunately, he transferred his evident love of chomping on his litter mates' back legs to us and no calf was safe. This caused us to worry that he might not have inherited his breed's key trait. But with time and socialisation down the dog park, he soon stopped biting and now appears perturbed if his teeth accidently make contact with me. He still has the same set of demands that he had at the start. His list of demands hasn't grown and he hasn't become more aggressive while claiming his due. He simply barks incessantly when he wants to be fed, insists on being fed by hand, requires full access to all parts of the house (once ripping out the dog door when we blocked it off when he was being naughty), steals socks and underwear and takes them to the front door when he wants to go into the front yard, and growls playfully when we try to retrieve them. But he doesn't get up on any furniture or claim any particular spot in the house and he doesn't steal food or anything else. He's never so much as growled in anger at anyone in the family or the many children who've approached him to pat him. The only thing is he likes to hump big dogs and that tends to result in battles, mostly involving barking and wrestling, when the other dog takes offence or tries to turn the tables. So, he's highly dominant but low in aggression towards humans.
Not sure it is fair or accurate MAV to say that alpha dog / hierarchy etc stuff is passe. Most breeders will tell you that dogs like to know who's boss in the home and to have a well behaved critter, discipline and control are important.
I do agree that domesticated animals have for hundreds of years been stable and good family members and comparisons to the wolf packs is drawing on a very long bow. Not sure who that odd biologist from the 70s was who made those assertions but it varies considerably from the information I've received over the years from breeders.
If any of my dogs barked incessantly until fed, nipped at legs and put family belongings at the front door until he got what he wanted, it'd be off to training asap. Sounds like a nutter! Who's got who trained!!
Our dogs were all trained and loved but knew their place. In fact you could put your hand in the feed bowl when any of them were eating and they'd simply step back. They were also trained to bark on command so if a potential intruder needed to be frightened away you'd just give the hand signal and she'd let rip for a few seconds and that would do the trick. And, really, that is mostly all that is ever needed from a domesticated dog... a good bark and potential evil doers FO to a quieter place, which most cops will confirm.
My son and I have both studied behavioural science some 30 years apart, and understanding of dog behaviour hasn't changed in that time. It is very much based on pack hierarchy and understanding that is the key to a well-adjusted, well-behaved dog.
Of course, domestic dogs aren't as attuned to appropriate candid behaviour as wolves or dingoes but, with a little work, that can be overcome.
There's a great show on TV from time to time in which animal behaviourists from a UK university attempt to address behavioural problems caused mainly by owners who have allowed their dogs to take over the pack.
All this stuff about pecking order, alphas, and pack hierarchy is a bit passé. It emanated from the 70s when a biologist observed wolves which were in captivity in a wildlife refuge. As wolves made themselves scarce when humans went into the wild, this was a rare opportunity. What this guy saw was that the wolves acted like hardened prisoners. They fought each other to be boss and the boss had to withstand constant challenges. This researcher then theorised that dogs operated in the same way as they were, after all, descended from wolves. Back then, domestic animals such as dogs and cats weren't considered to be worthy of study, so this theory wasn't challenged. Dog trainers were happy with this 'pack leader' theory as it merely validated their way of doing their thing - using harsh discipline to show the dogs who is boss.
In fact, the behaviour of the wolves wasn't reflective of their behaviour in the wild let alone how dogs behave. In the wild, wolves live in family units. Neither the father nor the mother is the 'alpha'. They lead most of the time because they have the experience but the young wolves will take the lead on occasions if they're the best hunters, etc.. There was no 'alpha' in the sense of dominating access to resources (food, shelter, sex) with the others taking turns after the alpha was finished according to the hierarchy. Quite the contrary - the parents provided for their progeny. The wolves in the refuge were males who weren't related but were forced to share limited space and resources.
Researchers have noted that packs of stray dogs just don't form stable hierarchies and there is no domination of resources.
Dogs have been domesticated for millenia. The process of domestication has changed dogs massively. Selective breeding took wolves that were unusually friendly towards humans and reinforced this quality. A Russian researcher showed how this process would have worked by running a breeding program with Silver Foxes over 40 generations. Silver Foxes are extremely avoidant of contact with humans in the wild but he ended up with foxes which had radically changed in looks and behaviour. Not only did the foxes end up craving contact with humans but also they changed physically to appear much cuter and cuddlier while their brains grew smaller.
Dogs love eye contact with humans. Both the dog and it's master experience a release of oxytocin, the bonding drug, when their eyes meet. On the other hand, a wolf, even a pup, will not experience any positive feelings from eye contact. However much a handler tries to habituate a pup to eye contact, it won't improve the situation.
In other words, dogs bond with humans in a way that wolves simply can't. Dogs don't become part of the family because they simply slot into a hierarchical structure that mimics their "natural" structure. They bond with us as they would their own family.
Please ignore dimwits like the self-styled "Dog Whisperer", César Milan, who run with this nonsense about being the alpha or pack leader.
Of course, selective breeding has had a massive impact upon how various breeds act. Breeders have heightened territoriality in some breeds but suppressed it in others. And of course dogs will have different levels of dominance or submission even in the same litter.
My dog is large but breeders have strived for over 2000 years to ensure the breed has little territoriality and is kind to all mankind. In its area of origin, it is commonly used as a living blanket by young children. He's a good watchdog in the sense that he barks loudly if strangers approach and he appears very excited, so couriers and meter-readers refuse to come in. But he's a bad guard dog as he just wants a stroke from them if they do come in. If you want a guard dog, you need a breed with more territoriality. But that trait means they'll jealously guard humans, bones and toys as much as real estate and unwanted attacks are an unfortunate side-effect.
Obviously I dont agree with the non hierarchy viewpoint and and my experience with German Shepherds differs from your theories.....I dont watch Cesar Milan but I do know how my dogs behave/have behaved and they have all tried to assert themselves and show dominance over humans and other animals....
I'm not saying that dogs shouldn't be trained or disciplined. Just that the pack leader theory has been discredited. Positive reinforcement is now the preferred model. For instance, clicker training is useful in associating obedience with immediate reward.
I couldn't immediately find the scholarly article that I had in mind but THIS LINK (http://io9.gizmodo.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629) pretty much covers the same territory. As the author says:
Just as, more than six decades ago, Schenkel extrapolated his wolf studies and applied them to domestic dogs, so too have many carried the notion of the "alpha wolf" over to dog training. Certainly, just as parent wolves hold dominance over their cubs and human parents hold dominance over their children, owners hold dominance over their dogs. Until my pup gets himself a credit card and a pair of opposable thumbs (and stops dissolving into delighted wiggles every time I tell him what a good little man he is), I'm pretty much the boss in our relationship. But some trainers take the idea of pack rank to the extreme; dog owners are given a laundry list of rules of how to maintain alpha status in all aspects of their relationship: Don't let your dog walk through the door before you do. Don't let her win a game of tug. Don't let him eat before you do. Some (famous) trainers even encourage acts of physical dominance that can be dangerous for lay people to execute. Much of this is a legacy of those old wolf studies, suggesting that we're in constant competition with our dogs for that pack leader position.
But, you might ask, mightn't domestic dogs behave much like wolves in captivity? Despite being members of the same species, wolves (even human-reared wolves) are behaviorally distinct from domestic dogs, especially when it comes to human beings. Take the famous experiment in which human-socialized wolves and domestic dogs are both presented with a cage with food inside. The food is placed inside a cage in a way that makes it impossible for either wolf or dog to retrieve it. The wolves will inevitably keep working at the cage, trying to puzzle out a way to remove the food. The dogs, after a few seconds of struggle, will look to a human as if to say, "Hey, buddy, a little help here?" Even if the hierarchical ranks were some innate part of lupine psychology, dogs have behaviors all their own.
That experiment that showed that dogs seek help from humans but human-socialised wolves don't has also been replicated with cats and dogs. Cats will try to do it on their own but dogs seek help.
The laundry list of don'ts makes me think of one of my son's school friends. He had a little fox terrier that was trying to play with him. He told him off, wrapped his arms around his chest and turned his back on him. He told me he'd been reading a book written by Martin McKenna, yet another self-styled dog whisperer who also goes by the name 'The Dog Man'. Like César Milan, his main qualification is that he says he realised he was like Dr Doolittle early in life as he just knew instinctively how to talk to dogs. Like Milan, he says everything comes down to dominating dogs like a pack leader. I borrowed the book and found a lengthy list of don'ts which includes not looking at your dog when it looks at you and not stroking your dog when he wants attention. According to him, every time you do, your dog scores another win. This poor kid had been following this idiot's rantings and he was missing out on the fun of having a dog!
César Milan uses physical means to dominate dogs. One of his brilliant tips is to stand beside your dog when it does something wrong and swing your far leg behind the other one so that you drive your heel into your dog's stomach/chest. He says this catches your dog by surprise but doesn't hurt it. He also is a master of the dog roll. If a dog's being naughty, he wrestles it so that it's on its back and holds it in that position until it calms down. He theorises that mother dogs do that but he doesn't have much evidence to suggest that dogs learn if humans do this instead. He does suggest you should leave this technique to professionals like him as dogs tend to bite him because they don't like it.
I have trained my dog pretty well. It's just that Samoyeds are a stubborn and independent breed that some suggest are more like cats than dogs. They have a mischievous nature and love forcing you to repeat your commands as if they have no idea what you're saying. But I went into it with eyes open as I love their spirit. When people ask me whether they can be trained, I tell them that training can go really quickly as long as the human is a good learner. You find out what will work with each individual and adjust. They're definitely not the sort of dog you'd get if you want to impress people with its immediate and unquestioning obedience.
They are smart though. He immediately took to the dog-door when he came in as a 2 month old pup and toilet trained himself in a week. I can walk him off lead on busy streets and he waits for a signal to cross the road. But he knows what he wants. The incessant barking only happens if I ignore "The Look". If I get up and follow him, he'll show me what he wants and I won't hear a peep. I used to try to tell him off when he took off with the laundry and put him into the naughty corner but it didn't change his behaviour. So I learnt to go along with the game and used the fact that he was clamping down on the clothing to stroke him all over his muzzle and face (which I enjoy more than he does). So everybody's happy! That's what you have to do as a dog owner. The bonding process is as much about finding out what they like as it is about getting your dog to do what you want.
Thank you all for your insights, opinions, experiences and recommendations.
We're going to meet an aquaintance of my Wife's, who will bring along her Doberman. This came from a very respected pedigree breeder I.e purebred and free of common genetic defects and bred to maximise the best traits in the dog. I'll let you know how I go.
I do find it interesting that while some people are terrified of dogs, some have experienced a bad encounter or had someone close to them experience one, that I still believe most times the dog owner has an equal if higher responsibility than the dog. Unless you've got a Pitbull, American or otherwise, or perhaps a Rottweiler, who are renown to be very susceptible to high pitched noises that drive them to react badly, I think with correct breeding, good, consistent training and a calm house hold will allow you to have a measured calm dog of almost all breeds. I read somewhere a post that said something like, "some people are suspicious of dogs, but I totally trust a dog that doesn't like a person." That really rings true to me. Personally, I can't stand little yappie dogs like Jack Russells or Yorkshire Terriers or a crapzu - they can be right little bastards and are well known for sourly attitudes and taking a nip at people. Anyway, enough of that. Much to think on.
Thanks again everyone. I was quite surprised by the amount of feedback and passionate discussion. Yet again we prove how awesome this forum is, we can agree to disagree, but we do it with class! 8)
We had a female Doberman for 10 years before she got bone cancer.
A BEAUTIFUL DOG! Loyal, protective and obedient, with basic training, puppy training at a school for 6 weeks and a whole lot of love.
When my daughter was born and my wife and I would leave the lounge room while Jada (my daughter) was in her bassinet, Dixie would get up from her bag that she sat on inside and would lie between the front door and Jada until we came back in the room.
She slept outside and you would hear her get up and run the boundary of the year just "doing her rounds" and if someone would walk up the street in an area that she thought was hers (which was everything she could see) then barking was one the menu for the next couple of minutes. I spoke to my neighbours and neither minded because they knew when she barked there were people around.
Could not recommend a breed more highly, we've have friend who also had a Dobie and he had the same experience as us. Sadly my eldest son is Autistic and has issues with the loud barking and the sheer size or her so until he's bigger we will have to hold off on getting another one, hopefully soon.
Good luck with the search for your new dog(s) Woodstock. I'm sure you'll end up with a loyal companion and years of unwavering devotion.
If anyone is interested in more up to date research into wild candid behaviour, Brad Purcell's "Dingo" is a good read. It even has a photograph of a subordinate female adopting a submissive pose when approached by the dominant female :)
Of course, dogs respond best to reward training but that's very different to ensuring that your dog knows it's place in the world. One simple technique is to ask visitors to ignore your dog for at least 30 minutes.
Did you read the article I linked, DJC? You would have noted that social dominance was covered:
This doesn't mean that wolves don't display social dominance, however. When a recent piece purporting to dispel the "myth" of canine dominance appeared on Psychology Today, ethologist Marc Bekoff quickly stepped in. Wolves (and other animals, including humans), display social dominance, he notes; it just isn't always easy to boil dominant behavior down to simple explanations. Dominant behavior and dominance relationships can be highly situational, and can vary greatly from individual to individual even within the same species. It's not the entire concept of wolves displaying social dominance that was dispelled, just the simple hierarchical pack structure. In response to the same piece, Mech pointed to a 2010 article he published detailing his observance of an adult gray wolf repeatedly pinning and straddling a male pack mate over the course of six and a half minutes. "We interpreted this behavior as an extreme example of an adult wolf harassing a maturing offspring, perhaps in prelude to the offspring's dispersal."
Did you read the article I linked, DJC? You would have noted that social dominance was covered:
Yes, but it's popular internet literature rather than an empirical study.
Purcell's book deals with communal living wild canid social organisation from several viewpoints; biology, communication, learning, territory, territory inheritance, dispersal, social systems, inter and intra pack interactions, etc.
Laurie Corbett's 'The Dingo in Australia and Asia' is another work with a detailed analysis of wild canid behaviour and social organisation. While it dates back to 1995, the behavioural observations are still valid and agree with those of Purcell.
Social organisation, characterised by dominant and subordinate behaviour, is a key to minimising conflict, facilitating successful communal hunting and communal care of pups, as well as the formation and maintenance of territories. Failing to appreciate the importance of ensuring that your dog understands its place its social group is asking for trouble.
Even though it was published over 60 years ago, Konrad Lorenz's 'Man Meets Dog' provides a fascinating series of observations of domestic dog (and wolf) behaviour that can still help dog owners understand why their pets behave the way they do.
Dr John Bradshaw, a biologist who started the anthrozoology department at Bristol University, has published a fair bit of work on the dominance theory regarding dogs.
In 2011, his book
In Defence of Dogs was published. You can glean the thrust of it from
this review in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/8637612/In-Defence-of-Dogs-Why-Dogs-Need-Our-Understanding-by-John-Bradshaw.html).In 2014, he co-wrote Dominance in domestic dogs: A response to Schilder et al. (2014) (http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(15)00198-7/pdf). As the title indicates, it responded to Dominance in domestic dogs revisited: Useful habit and useful construct? (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Claudia_Vinke2/publication/261716288_Dominance_in_domestic_dogs_revisited_Useful_habit_and_useful_construct/links/0c96053b6636180e55000000.pdf), Schilder et al., both published in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour. They set out 2 sides of the debate. Dr Bradshaw concluded that:
Similarly, although it is clear that dogs have retained many of the individual patterns of intraspecific communicative behavior from the wolf, we urge caution in extrapolating the function of these behaviors from free-ranging dogs, or indeed wolves, to the behavior of companion dogs, for 2 reasons. Not only has the significance of the various displays almost certainly been altered during the pro- cess of domestication, but also the lifetime experiences of companion dogs are very different from those of their free-ranging counterparts. We particularly urge against the extrapolation of conclusions drawn from the intraspecific behavior of free-ranging dogs to the interpretation of interspecific behavior directed by companion dogs toward humans. Put simply, we do not believe that the fact that human observers can measure consistent relationships between some pairs of dogs, and can define these as dominance relationships, should be interpreted as providing evidence for the hypothesis that “dominance” is an inherent (“personality”) characteristic of dogs, nor that their behaviors are driven by the motivation to enhance their relative “status.” Indeed, we argue that at our current state of knowledge of cognitive processes in the Carnivora, it is misleading to presume that domestic dogs have the mental capacity to conceptualize “status.”
We also consider it dangerous to use such extrapolations to support techniques used to alter the behavior of companion dogs, whether that be basic training or the resolution of behavioral disorders. The “dominance” concept has long been used to justify the application of pain and fear in dog training, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that not only are such methods potentially dangerous for the person using them, they are counterproductive in terms of behavioral outcomes, owner-pet bonds, and canine welfare (Rooney and Bradshaw, 2014; Schalke et al., 2007; Schilder and van der Borg, 2004).
The relationship between dogs and their owners has been the subject of much more research recently and older texts and those that extrapolate the behaviour of wolves or wild dogs have to be treated with great caution. The jury's not out yet (as the disagreement between Drs. Bradshaw and Schilder shows) but the notion that humans need to dominate their dogs is shaky at best. Positive reinforcement and rewards-based training rather than continual vigilance to ensure that the dog is seen to submit at all times may be all that's required.
As an example, I'd never ask guests to ignore my dog for 30 minutes. The easiest way to get rid of a Samoyed is to give it some attention. Once they know they've won you over, they're off. Guests who play hard to get build up their excitement and desire for attention. Playing dominance games like this just creates a problem that doesn't need to exist. It certainly doesn't produce any long-term benefit. Of course, other breeds and individual dogs may react differently.
Gee, Woody has a lot of study ahead of him before he gets that pooch!
Gee, Woody has a lot of study ahead of him before he gets that pooch!
:)
Get a black lab woody... at night it will look like a doberman.
Get a black lab woody... at night it will look like a doberman.
Get a Dachshund and put it on box near the front gate. It will look like a Dobe for 1/3 of the price.
My nephew has a Miniature Pinscher. It resembles a Doberman if you look at it through a magnifying glass ;)
Here's an even cheaper and safer option:
[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/kcvrX-w1S6g[/flash]
My nephew has a Miniature Pinscher. It resembles a Doberman if you look at it through a magnifying glass ;)
Ripper dogs apparently. Also got a big voice for a little critter. Think they were bred as ratters.
Get a peacock... nobody will sneak in, they make enough noise to wake the dead and you can eat it for Christmas.
Get a peacock... nobody will sneak in, they make enough noise to wake the dead and you can eat it for Christmas.
Post of the Year contender! ;D
Ripper dogs apparently. Also got a big voice for a little critter. Think they were bred as ratters.
I'd back the rat!
No, you're right about them being ripper dogs although my nephew's dog cost a small fortune in vet bills.
Get a peacock... nobody will sneak in, they make enough noise to wake the dead and you can eat it for Christmas.
Yes, I think that easily takes the cake for the best post in this thread. Well done Prof! :))
Get a peacock... nobody will sneak in, they make enough noise to wake the dead and you can eat it for Christmas.
My friends had a pair of peafowl(cock and hen), and after two or three months they pissed off and lived at their neighbours never to return! :D After several attempts to get them home they gave up!
Cock was a vicious bastard in spring though, no going in that backyard when the heat was on!
Apparently a flock of geese also makes for a good set of guards. They quickly raise the alarm when strangers come near. You can also eat them.
Had Bull Terriers, English Staffies and now own a beautiful family loving large male American Staffy. Wouldn't have another breed - absolutely love the bully breeds but I understand the power they have, and the amount of damage they can inflict in a very short amount of time.
Only my current one did i ever have any sort of concern with. He showed me as a pup signs of dog aggression and dominance which I quickly knew needed to be attended to. I called the breeder and I was advised to take him to a specialised dog training company called 'Alpha Dog Training'. They took him full time to their premises for extensive training for 4 weeks - wasn't cheap but considering I had youngish children at the time, it was the best money i could have spent. He returned a stable calm loving and obedient dog and is now 5 years old and is exactly the same. We were educated by professionals on what to look for and how to deal with situations. They key is constant training so the animal is very clear on his position as last in the household.
Having the animal understand he is last in the peeking order is vital with any powerful breed. Any large breed requires time, attention, strict training and ALWAYS constant attention where near young kids and/or any person or animal outside their pack. I don't care whether its a Doberman, German Shepherd, Rottie, whatever - none are worth taking a risk with a small child or infant and any responsible owner knows this.
My dog scares the crap out of anyone that doesn't know him (and even some that do) - however he is a wonderful companion, protector and friend of my direct family including my children who adore him BUT we are very responsible owners and always use caution even when we are 99.9% sure he can be trusted.
Lots of things in life are dangerous in the wrong hands - Powerful breeds are no different. If you don't want to professionally train if needed, not allow the animal to spend any time with infants or very young children (if not part of his pack), as well as strict supervision of the dog with young children even if in his pack....then get an alarm system and forget any of the powerful or large breeds.
@Shawny
Excellent advice mate!
Had Bull Terriers, English Staffies and now own a beautiful family loving large male American Staffy. Wouldn't have another breed - absolutely love the bully breeds but I understand the power they have, and the amount of damage they can inflict in a very short amount of time.
Only my current one did i ever have any sort of concern with. He showed me as a pup signs of dog aggression and dominance which I quickly knew needed to be attended to. I called the breeder and I was advised to take him to a specialised dog training company called 'Alpha Dog Training'. They took him full time to their premises for extensive training for 4 weeks - wasn't cheap but considering I had youngish children at the time, it was the best money i could have spent. He returned a stable calm loving and obedient dog and is now 5 years old and is exactly the same. We were educated by professionals on what to look for and how to deal with situations. They key is constant training so the animal is very clear on his position as last in the household.
Having the animal understand he is last in the peeking order is vital with any powerful breed. Any large breed requires time, attention, strict training and ALWAYS constant attention where near young kids and/or any person or animal outside their pack. I don't care whether its a Doberman, German Shepherd, Rottie, whatever - none are worth taking a risk with a small child or infant and any responsible owner knows this.
My dog scares the crap out of anyone that doesn't know him (and even some that do) - however he is a wonderful companion, protector and friend of my direct family including my children who adore him BUT we are very responsible owners and always use caution even when we are 99.9% sure he can be trusted.
Lots of things in life are dangerous in the wrong hands - Powerful breeds are no different. If you don't want to professionally train if needed, not allow the animal to spend any time with infants or very young children (if not part of his pack), as well as strict supervision of the dog with young children even if in his pack....then get an alarm system and forget any of the powerful or large breeds.
Exactamondo. Good stuff, Shawny. Our Dobes and the Ridgey always knew they were last in the pecking order, this was established from the get-go. And if you let up for a while they'll test you, and it really is just so the hierarchy is clear. Dogs love clear boundaries.
My nephew has an American Staffy, thoroughly trained and just a brilliant dog. He's got a 3yo and newborn and the critter is totally trustworthy... but that is only due to that proper and thorough training - imperative for large breeds and the only responsible thing to do.
@Shawny
Excellent advice mate!
x10000
Sometimes things can be out of your control too.
We have a largish breed dog, and a neighbor who has no responsibility for the behavior of their small breed dog. They are allowed to roam free, bark and harass anyone in the immediate vicinity. Our large breed was always well trained and socialized, but the neighbors allowed their small breed to stand at our fence and bark at our dog continuously all day long. The net result is we can no longer socialize our large breed with small dogs, he hates them through no fault of our own, his training and personality have nothing to do with it!
If our dog got hold of their feather duster breed, they and the council would probably blame us for having a badly behaved dog!
Get a peacock... nobody will sneak in, they make enough noise to wake the dead and you can eat it for Christmas.
Classic!
@Shawny
Excellent advice mate!
Excellent advice indeed!
One final observation from me.
My daughter has crate trained her Ridgeback. It's not something I have ever done but I will definitely do it when we acquire our next dog(s).
I was supervising my 11 month old grandson while he was playing with the Ridgeback on Monday and I noticed that he was paying too much attention to one of her dew claws. She simply stood up, walked over to her crate and waited for me to open it. Not only does the crate provide a means of confining the dog when required, it gives her a secure refuge from the little bloke and his boisterous older brothers.
Shawny, it may be that your pup was just in a phase. I posted previously that I had a pup which enjoyed biting. One night, I remember coming home and finding my partner and our son hugging each other against a wall with our cute little pup standing in front of them and looking up expectantly. They were both upset and said they couldn't move or he'd bite them. That wasn't an isolated occasion. At one stage, my partner told me we should consider returning our pup to the breeder. The thing is that pups bite because it's fun. It's their way of playing. Watch a litter of pups and you'll see a lot of biting of rear legs. If they stayed in the litter, they'd eventually realise from their siblings' reactions that it wasn't fun for them or the mother would sort them out. But humans aren't able to simulate dog-on-dog discipline. Even worse, the biting hurts us much more than other dogs. We have thinner skin and bites which would only annoy another dog may well draw blood from us.
The biting, however, pretty much stopped within a month. There wasn't any silver bullet. We did try to let the pup know he was causing pain by squealing, as his litter mates would have done. And bigger dogs down the dog park would periodically make it clear that they wouldn't tolerate that behaviour. But the biggest factor in solving the problem was time and maturation. A month in the life of a pup is an eternity. He soon lost any desire to bite. If his teeth accidentally touched me, he would act as if he'd come into contact with an electric fence. He shows absolutely no aggression towards people. And all that happened without professional intervention or dominance training.
Could it be that your pup's aggression wasn't a sign that he had his eyes on the top job? Might it have been boisterous rough play or mere bad behaviour which needed correction? Pups aren't really like Mafiosi looking for an opportunity to whack the boss so they can take over. The very fact that the previous dogs you had didn't need dominance training should be proof of that.
By the way, I've assumed that your dog was a new pup. But trainers such as Victoria Stillwell have repeatedly shown that older "power breed" dogs with aggression problems can be turned around with positive reinforcement and by addressing the causes of the aggression. The idea they have to be dominated by a strong pack leader has been discredited.
I hope Woodstock won't believe that he has to buy into that old wive's tale if he buys a "power breed".
Still reading Mav :D
We spoke at length last night about it. That's code for Mrs.W talks and I listen - and we decided to wait for our current Labrador to pass away before we bring a new canine into the family. Why? Because she is twelve years old, her hearing is mostly gone and the old girl has struggles lately with her rear legs, standing up and jumping into the car. We are going to make her as comfortable as possible and spoil the old girl rotten. As everyone knows, Labs have the sweetest nature. How long will she last? As long as we can ensure she has a good life. I don't like the thought of making to call when it is "time". Gonna be a hard, hard day.
So we will wait for her to pass on and do our griving. Then we'll speak to these two breeders in particular, take up the offer to visit them and talk to them and make a decision then. Make no mistake though, the dog will be professionally trained and we will make damn sure that we reinforce the rules and know what to look out for.
Professional training and reinforcing the rules are all good. Just avoid trainers who base their training on dominance theory and seek out one who uses positive reinforcement.
This is the RSPCA's position:
What is the RSPCA's view on dominance dog training?
The ‘dominance’ model for dog behaviour poses serious dog welfare problems. Dominance models may use aversive training techniques such as “alpha rolls”, staring the dog down or other confrontational methods and punishment which can cause fear, pain and distress to dogs. In addition, these methods generally do not address the underlying cause of the unwanted behaviour which is why they are often unsuccessful. In fact, dominance training methods are not scientifically proven to be effective.
Aversive methods may also increase the dog’s underlying fear and anxiety which can actually make the unwanted behaviour much worse. Aversive methods can also reduce the quality of the relationship between the owner and the dog and they can place the owner at serious risk of physical injury.
When trying to change behaviour, try to think about the behaviours you would like your dog to perform and reward only for the responses that lead to those outcomes. This might include sitting rather than jumping on guests or chewing on a toy rather than your favourite pair of shoes. This approach revolves around positive reinforcement- i.e. rewarding behaviour that we like. Rewards can be food, toys or verbal praise. Basically, anything your dog will ‘work’ for.
Conversely, we also need to ensure that rewards for unwanted behaviour are removed. So, keep those shoes out of reach and try wherever possible to avoid any situations or triggers for unwanted behaviours.
The RSPCA’s position is that dogs should be trained using programs that are designed to facilitate the development and maintenance of acceptable behaviours using natural instincts and positive reinforcement. Aversion therapy and physical punishment procedures must not be used in training programs because of the potential for cruelty. Please see AVA Reward-based training for more information.
http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-the-RSPCAs-view-on-dominance-dog-training_475.html (http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-the-RSPCAs-view-on-dominance-dog-training_475.html)
Try to avoid being sucked in by myths such as certain breeds needing to be dominated or that positive reinforcement training lets dogs do what they want. Those and other myths are busted by many expert dog trainers, such as: https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/myth-vs-fact/ (https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/myth-vs-fact/).
Or this:
Far too many times dog owners have been given advice to "show the dog who's boss" and "be the alpha." The unfortunate side effect of this thinking is that it creates an adversarial relationship between the owner and their dog with the belief that the dog is somehow trying to control the home and the owner's life. Such misinformation damages the owner-dog relationship, and may lead to fear, anxiety and /or aggressive behaviors from the dog. Dogs cannot speak our language and they can find themselves thrust into situations in our homes that they find difficult to comprehend, by owners trying to behave as they mistakenly believe "alpha" wolves do.
Rather than dominance, it is most often a lack of clear interspecies communication that leads to behaviors we find troubling. It is the human's responsibility to teach our dogs the behaviors that we find appropriate, and reward them when they do the things we like. Just as importantly, it is our role to show them which behaviors are not appropriate in a constructive and compassionate manner that does not lead to further anxiety on the dog's part.
If Not Dominance, Then What Do We Use?
Fortunately, many trainers and behavior professionals now present concepts that focus on building a caring and happy relationship with your dog, instead of relying on dominance. Some trainers refer to the term "leadership" or other similar terms that are less adversarial than "dominance" or "Alpha." What these trainers have in common is a desire to explain effective, non-confrontational and humane ways of living successfully with dogs. These educated approaches aim to strengthen the bond between the owner and the dog and teach owners more effective ways of communicating with another species. For dogs with behavior problems, trainers employ programs such as "Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF)" which works along the principal that the dog must "do" something to earn what he wants (i.e. sit to get dinner, walk on a loose leash to move forward, etc.) These programs are effective because the dog is issued a structured set of rules that are consistently reinforced and the dog learns what he needs to do in order to get the things that he wants such as food, petting, playtime, etc. Because dogs do not have the power of human speech and language, behavior problems and anxiety can result when they are left to fend for themselves in deciding how to live in our world without guidance that makes sense. Just like with people, we behave better and thrive in a world that "makes sense" to us and has a clear structure.
The myths that resonate in "dominance theory," such as not allowing the dog to sleep on the bed, or eat first, or go through doorways first, have no bearing on whether or not the dog will look to the owner for guidance. The specific rules of the relationship are up to the owner and are based on what they want in their household. Humane, educated trainers should strive to teach owners to positively and gently influence and motivate their dogs to act in a manner that befits their own home and tailor the "rules" to each individual. There is no scientifically validated data to uphold the belief that you must eat before your dog, or keep them from sleeping on your bed, or walking in front of you, and owners should not be led to believe this and live in a state of fear and anxiety over their dog's possible takeover of their home. In fact, the vast majority of dogs and owners have wonderful, mutually-rewarding relationships—even if the dog is allowed to sleep on the bed, eats alongside the owner, and does many other things erroneously labeled "dominance."
https://apdt.com/pet-owners/choosing-a-trainer/dominance/ (https://apdt.com/pet-owners/choosing-a-trainer/dominance/), The Association of Professional Dog Trainers.
Still reading Mav :D
We spoke at length last night about it. That's code for Mrs.W talks and I listen - and we decided to wait for our current Labrador to pass away before we bring a new canine into the family. Why? Because she is twelve years old, her hearing is mostly gone and the old girl has struggles lately with her rear legs, standing up and jumping into the car. We are going to make her as comfortable as possible and spoil the old girl rotten. As everyone knows, Labs have the sweetest nature. How long will she last? As long as we can ensure she has a good life. I don't like the thought of making to call when it is "time". Gonna be a hard, hard day.
So we will wait for her to pass on and do our griving. Then we'll speak to these two breeders in particular, take up the offer to visit them and talk to them and make a decision then. Make no mistake though, the dog will be professionally trained and we will make damn sure that we reinforce the rules and know what to look out for.
That is always a difficult decision Woody but you know your dog better than anyone else does.
It's two years since the second of our pair of Staffies had to be put down (she was 14) and we're just starting to think about replacements. Not that you can really replace one dog with another; it's a whole new experience.
While Mav and I seem to have a difference of opinion on the relevance of wild canid and domestic dog behaviour, we're actually on the same page when it comes to dog training; there's no place for pain and/or stressing dogs by acting out a parody of imagined dog behaviour. The social organisation of dog packs actually serves to minimise aggressive behaviour and physical attacks.
My daughter's Ridgeback wanted to protect the family and acted aggressively to other dogs (she was a rescue dog who came to them at about 12 months of age). She learnt that wasn't her role in the pack/family through being encouraged to relax when other dogs approached. My daughter's family (and the dog) is fortunate to have kilometres of off lead dog beach and the Ridgeback now shows no aggression towards other dogs. If the dog feels threatened (usually by little yappy dogs), she retreats to her adults/pack leaders for protection.
That is always a difficult decision Woody but you know your dog better than anyone else does.
It's two years since the second of our pair of Staffies had to be put down (she was 14) and we're just starting to think about replacements. Not that you can really replace one dog with another; it's a whole new experience.
While Mav and I seem to have a difference of opinion on the relevance of wild canid and domestic dog behaviour, we're actually on the same page when it comes to dog training; there's no place for pain and/or stressing dogs by acting out a parody of imagined dog behaviour. The social organisation of dog packs actually serves to minimise aggressive behaviour and physical attacks.
My daughter's Ridgeback wanted to protect the family and acted aggressively to other dogs (she was a rescue dog who came to them at about 12 months of age). She learnt that wasn't her role in the pack/family through being encouraged to relax when other dogs approached. My daughter's family (and the dog) is fortunate to have kilometres of off lead dog beach and the Ridgeback now shows no aggression towards other dogs. If the dog feels threatened (usually by little yappy dogs), she retreats to her adults/pack leaders for protection.
We have always had German Shepherds and all have displayed the same behaviour and all have been trained, if challenged by another dominant breed they will react and they are picky and choosy about who they accept as human friends, under command they withdraw but their first instinct is to react in a defensive manner if they dont like what they see or smell...small yappy dogs just get ignored unless they persist.
There is ignorance in understanding the breed, they are not aggressive they are protective and only react when provoked...when walked they are on guard because that is their nature especially the females, they dont sniff trees, eat rubbish, they concentrate as they are on duty.
Our Dog responds well to command but she also has her own mind as she comes from a clever breed, she has saved my wife twice from attacks initiated by a Malamute and a Pit Bull Staffie cross and this after my wife crossed the road to avoid these other breeds...I'm not about over training her and taking away her ability to think for herself...if you want a clever dog that does tricks then get a poodle, but if you want a clever dog that is smart enough to know when to react at the right time then I recommend a GS....
We had a Ridgeback as a Neighbour and you would think there would be trouble but they got along fine...no barking, no squabbling at the fence, both Dogs minded there own business and led a peaceful existance...was very impressed with the Ridgeback's peaceful manner after initially thinking the worst..
There is ignorance in understanding the breed, they are not aggressive they are protective and only react when provoked...
When I was a teenager I witnessed a German Shep attack my brother and he required stitches, totally unprovoked.
When I was a teenager I witnessed a German Shep attack my brother and he required stitches, totally unprovoked.
German Shepherds can have a mental condition, I cannot remember what it is called but it is a result of the breeding which causes them to be timid. That generates fear in them. It's the reason so very many of them are rejected by the military and police as service dogs, they come across as aggressive basically because they are scared and react defensively unpredictably in unexpected circumstances.
When the forces get a dog they put it through of series of special tests to determine if they are suitable for training, most are not. I have heard the success rate is as low as 1 in 40!
Subjectively I have been told it is the same condition that causes those little dogs to tremble all the time. So in reality, if that is true, it's the fault of breeders.
Sad but true, Spotted One.
Whenever a breed becomes popular you can bet a small but influential group of unscrupulous people, who see dollar signs, start in-breeding and subjecting bitches to being almost constantly pregnant for years.
Whenever buying a pure-bred / popular breed the imperative is getting the reputable/right breeder, might cost a little more but will be well worth it.
There is a legitimate argument for getting a mongrel though, as, oddly, they tend to be healthier than purebreds, though there are some purebreds that are naturally hardy (provided they come from a good breeder).
We're about to get new critters and decided on a Ridgey and a mongrel from the pound who deserves a second chance.
Another avenue is 'rescue'. We had a rescue Dobe and she was just fantastic. Had an awful upbringing so she was really timid for a while (hand shy, so she was obviously belted - I never hit my critters, a deep disapproving voice is sufficient when they misbehave) but with loads of love, affection, encouragement and positive reinforcement she blossomed into a beautiful critter.
German Shepherds can have a mental condition, I cannot remember what it is called but it is a result of the breeding which causes them to be timid. That generates fear in them. It's the reason so very many of them are rejected by the military and police as service dogs, they come across as aggressive basically because they are scared and react defensively unpredictably in unexpected circumstances.
When the forces get a dog they put it through of series of special tests to determine if they are suitable for training, most are not. I have heard the success rate is as low as 1 in 40!
Subjectively I have been told it is the same condition that causes those little dogs to tremble all the time. So in reality, if that is true, it's the fault of breeders.
All the Sheps we have had were the opposite, no fear at all, protective yes but never timid....but they are not a dog you walk up to in the street and try and pat or get friendly with if they dont know or trust you.
We had a older Gentleman hit our dog with an umbrella for no reason other than he had a bad experience with the breed as a younger person, his family who were walking with him apologised saying that German Shepherds scared him..problem is now anyone carrying an umbrella is viewed as a potential assailant and the hair goes up on the back of her neck and she adopts an aggressive posture which makes other walkers etc think she is savage which isnt the case.
I'm not saying you dont get poorly behaved Sheps and in MBB's brothers case I'm sorry that happened and understand he wouldnt view the breed favourably...IMO though they are a maligned breed due to the profile they have as military/ police/guard dog where every film you see them they are portrayed as vicious...the reality is more attacks on humans are committed by Labradors but they dont have the aggressive image profile of Sheps and are seen as the ideal family dog...
Nothing annoys me more than people saying you have a German Shepherd just as a guard dog and thats all they are good for...
Apparently Labradors have one of the worst records of all dogs in Australia for biting people? However, they tend to bite arms or legs. Other breeds are different, such as bull breeds tend to go more for the face/neck which is potentially a lot more dangerous. Having said that my Staffie is very friendly to people and makes a totally useless guard dog as he would welcome people into the house with great enthusiasm. May be a bit different if a possum tried to call in though! :D
There is a legitimate argument for getting a mongrel though, as, oddly, they tend to be healthier than purebreds, though there are some purebreds that are naturally hardy (provided they come from a good breeder).
Yes the mongrel/hybrid debate is an interesting one. I think the two healthiest dogs we have had have been cross breeds/hybrids. We have had a few of pedigree as well but they have always had some little issues despite allegedly coming from good stock and at high cost.
Apparently Labradors have one of the worst records of all dogs in Australia for biting people? However, they tend to bite arms or legs. Other breeds are different, such as bull breeds tend to go more for the face/neck which is potentially a lot more dangerous. Having said that my Staffie is very friendly to people and makes a totally useless guard dog as he would welcome people into the house with great enthusiasm. May be a bit different if a possum tried to call in though! :D
I think the statistics can be distorted by the popularity of certain breeds, but it just highlights the need for care with children around large dogs.
I think having a pet/dog is vitally important for children, the parents are probably the biggest problem not the pet/dog.
The problem isn't just puppy factories. Pedigree breeders can be a real problem too. Many believe in "line breeding" - using related breeding pairs every 2nd generation or so. You don't have to be a geneticist to see the problem with that.
In some breeds, breeders have fixated on certain features and exaggerated them to unhealthy proportions. For instance, Bulldogs' noses have become ever flatter and breathing problems have been exacerbated. Less attention is given by those Frankenstein breeders to general health and demeanour.
The breeder of my dog imported sires from Norway to expand the genetic base and that was encouraging.
The breeder of my dog imported sires from Norway to expand the genetic base and that was encouraging.
I to think that importing a breeder from Norway would be very encouraging.
Mrs DJC agreed to visit and feed her friend's two aged, smelly little fur balls while she's away and I have to accompany her to manage the tricky locks. They are not dogs that I could warm to but they are friendly enough and appreciate being fed and having some company.
This morning we discovered that the friend's daughter had visited and left George the Bulldog there. We don't know George and he wasn't happy that there were strangers trying to get into the house. I didn't want to force the issue and end up with George latched on to my leg so we beat a retreat and left the dogs to fend for themselves until their owner gets back later today.
Seeing George reminded me of the stuffed Bulldog I used to walk past when I worked in the Museum. He was a champion show dog from the late 19th or early 20th century and looked nothing like today's Bulldogs being larger with longer legs and better developed hindquarters.
There's an interesting website that shows how dog breeds have been compromised by breeders wishing to emphasise particular features:
https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/
Bull Terriers' heads have become egg-shaped and German Shepherds' hindquarters have become unnaturally sloped. The latter "desirable attribute" has affected the gait, mobility and health of dogs bred to that standard. My nephew (not the one with the Miniature Pinscher) has a black German Shepherd with normal hindquarters and it is a wonderfully athletic dog. The people who are breeding for exaggerated features should be booted out of the industry.
Mrs DJC agreed to visit and feed her friend's two aged, smelly little fur balls while she's away and I have to accompany her to manage the tricky locks. They are not dogs that I could warm to but they are friendly enough and appreciate being fed and having some company.
This morning we discovered that the friend's daughter had visited and left George the Bulldog there. We don't know George and he wasn't happy that there were strangers trying to get into the house. I didn't want to force the issue and end up with George latched on to my leg so we beat a retreat and left the dogs to fend for themselves until their owner gets back later today.
Seeing George reminded me of the stuffed Bulldog I used to walk past when I worked in the Museum. He was a champion show dog from the late 19th or early 20th century and looked nothing like today's Bulldogs being larger with longer legs and better developed hindquarters.
There's an interesting website that shows how dog breeds have been compromised by breeders wishing to emphasise particular features:
https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/
Bull Terriers' heads have become egg-shaped and German Shepherds' hindquarters have become unnaturally sloped. The latter "desirable attribute" has affected the gait, mobility and health of dogs bred to that standard. My nephew (not the one with the Miniature Pinscher) has a black German Shepherd with normal hindquarters and it is a wonderfully athletic dog. The people who are breeding for exaggerated features should be booted out of the industry.
Thank you, DJC, really interesting reading.