Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 10, 2019, 05:26:48 pm

Title: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 10, 2019, 05:26:48 pm
Looks like long suffering Holden owners/fans are to be dealt another blow with GM about to sell off Holden to Inchcape Australia who are importers of such crap boxes like Peugeot, Citroen and I think they are also the importer for Subaru.
Fair chance the Holden name will disappear and be replaced by the Opel name only and Inchcape's main interest must be to use the Holden distribution network to flog more Subaru's and save some money...cant see why anyone would want Holden on their books.
Inchcape will probably import the Opel range only or even kill off Holden for good........not that killing off Holden for good is such a bad thing, lousy cars, worst customer service along with Ford in Aus......actually Fiat/Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep is slightly worse again... My sympathies if you own any vehicles from those makers......
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on February 10, 2019, 08:49:04 pm
Bathurst will look different
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 11, 2019, 09:00:53 pm
I can see the rationale in a way. The Holden brand was built on cars, esp. family sedans and wagons, actually being made in Australia for Australian conditions. What is the value of that brand if non of its models are to be built here - why bother just putting a Holden badge on an imported model, especially when the source brand may have more cachet in specific model ranges?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 11, 2019, 10:27:09 pm
I can see the rationale in a way. The Holden brand was built on cars, esp. family sedans and wagons, actually being made in Australia for Australian conditions. What is the value of that brand if non of its models are to be built here - why bother just putting a Holden badge on an imported model, especially when the source brand may have more cachet in specific model ranges?

Sales are terrible for Holdens, they are still trying to flog Commodores that are 18 months old in design and calling them new cars, the brand is damaged and has been since they took money off the government when they promised to keep manufacturing in Aus but in fact closed down their operation and sent that money to Detroit....
Ford will be next, a equally woeful company whose customer service and engineering is amongst the worst.....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 12, 2019, 07:09:33 am
Sales are terrible for Holdens, they are still trying to flog Commodores that are 18 months old in design and calling them new cars, the brand is damaged and has been since they took money off the government when they promised to keep manufacturing in Aus but in fact closed down their operation and sent that money to Detroit....
Ford will be next, a equally woeful company whose customer service and engineering is amongst the worst.....

Yes, the great Aussie public has generally moved on from the traditional Holden and Ford family vehicles leaving mainly the die-hards whose patronage does not provide enough demand to support local production. The Ford brand though, unlike Holden, is a global one, so will survive albeit on imported vehicles.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 12, 2019, 08:19:07 am
Yes, the great Aussie public has generally moved on from the traditional Holden and Ford family vehicles leaving mainly the die-hards whose patronage does not provide enough demand to support local production. The Ford brand though, unlike Holden, is a global one, so will survive albeit on imported vehicles.

Most moved on because both brands tried to sell cars for top dollar with B-Grade builds and materials. Ford and Holden were making local plastic versions of BMW and Taurus and trying to charge more for them even though they were full of 70s technology!

The car makers would claim nobody wanted large cars, but at the moment the trend is away from small cars back to family sized vehicles which is ironic given they closed the plants making medium and large sized sedans. The truth was they didn't want to spend on old factories to update old models with modern powertrains and technologies.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the market over the next few years, a friend I have who use to own a Ford dealership tells me the biggest growth area is in light trucks like Twin cabs. Our market is becoming very American, and you can expect to find interesting hybrid or plugin versions appearing in SUVs and traditional muscle cars over the next few years. I was sceptical until he took me for a spin in his Tesla 100D, it cost a lot to buy, stuff all to run as he has a setup at home with solar panels and Tesla batteries that basically charges it off the sun, and pins you to the seat under acceleration like a top end sports car.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: JonHenry on February 12, 2019, 10:33:38 am
Most moved on because both brands tried to sell cars for top dollar with B-Grade builds and materials. Ford and Holden were making local plastic versions of BMW and Taurus and trying to charge more for them even though they were full of 70s technology!

The car makers would claim nobody wanted large cars, but at the moment the trend is away from small cars back to family sized vehicles which is ironic given they closed the plants making medium and large sized sedans. The truth was they didn't want to spend on old factories to update old models with modern powertrains and technologies.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the market over the next few years, a friend I have who use to own a Ford dealership tells me the biggest growth area is in light trucks like Twin cabs. Our market is becoming very American, and you can expect to find interesting hybrid or plugin versions appearing in SUVs and traditional muscle cars over the next few years. I was sceptical until he took me for a spin in his Tesla 100D, it cost a lot to buy, stuff all to run as he has a setup at home with solar panels and Tesla batteries that basically charges it off the sun, and pins you to the seat under acceleration like a top end sports car.

The truth is much simpler, the local manufacturers could not compete.
Labour costs at the low production factories could not compete with the Asian manufacturers for low cost vehicles, and they couldn't compete on quality with European manufacturers for high cost vehicles.
Our cost of living combined with union forces squeezed them out.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 12, 2019, 10:37:37 am
The truth is much simpler, the local manufacturers could not compete.
Labour costs at the low production factories could not compete with the Asian manufacturers for low cost vehicles, and they couldn't compete on quality with European manufacturers for high cost vehicles.
Our cost of living combined with union forces squeezed them out.

Its all swings and roundabouts.

Give it time, things will come back here.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: JonHenry on February 12, 2019, 11:06:32 am
Its all swings and roundabouts.

Give it time, things will come back here.

No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 12, 2019, 11:31:10 am
No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50

Tend to agree. Building mass produced vehicles can be easily done these days in low labour cost countries e.g. Thailand. I guess AI and robotics could eventually virtually eliminate even most of the low cost labour required?

Would Aussies be prepared to work hard for very low pay in order to compete in that environment. Certainly not at the moment although the forces of neo-liberal globalism could beat us into submission eventually?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 12, 2019, 12:16:26 pm
The truth is much simpler, the local manufacturers could not compete.
Labour costs at the low production factories could not compete with the Asian manufacturers for low cost vehicles, and they couldn't compete on quality with European manufacturers for high cost vehicles.
Our cost of living combined with union forces squeezed them out.

In Melbourne all three manufacturers upgraded to almost fully automated robotic production lines which they ran for only 8hrs - 10hrs a day. They then complained the costs of manufacturing locally were too high, this was because they had incorporated 14 - 16hrs of the factory doing nothing into the vehicle cost. The labor cost was irrelevant, but they used the Australian wages debate to maintain / drive down the wages at new plants they were already in plans to build overseas.

When the two locals closed the factories they refused to sell the used equipment to local manufacturers or suppliers so they bulldozed the whole lot, and claimed a depreciated the loss at the expense of the Australian taxpayer, this is after getting hundreds of millions in federal and state government subsidies to buy those upgrades. When the federal government(Tax Dept) knocked back the claim the car makers took the federal government took court and won a settlement and costs, the law has since been changed to ensure nobody games the system like that again. Estimates are the US HQs made about A$500M out of the whole deal!

So what did they do next, they built new plants in Korea and the Philippines heavily subsidized by those governments to build medium to large cars, subsidized to an amount of about US$350M, and set them up exactly the same way the Melbourne plants were setup, if the plants were so inefficient why would you build them the same way? Perhaps because they can almost make more money building subsidized plants and decommissioning plants for tax write-offs than they do making cars! But like Apple, LG, Samsung, Mitsubishi and Sony the gig will soon be up for these global manufacturers.

The problem is the whole build/commission/decommission cycle takes decades or more and they get to pocket funding up front and pay it back very slowly, partially or never. Would the Tax Dept please give me $500M to mind for them for the next decade or so, I promise to pay it back in full! ;)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 12, 2019, 01:15:20 pm
No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50

Maybe.

Its all economics.

An economy that produces little will get overtaken by somebody else and then they will outsource to the cheaper labour.

It might take 100 years, but it will happen.  The only way to stop it is to produce a premium product, or innovate and do things better.  Thats what the Germans and the Japanese do anyway.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 12, 2019, 03:27:29 pm
No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50

No chance ... unless there’s a dramatic change in world trade, treaties and government involvement.  Although advances in sustainable energy powered vehicles could be a game changer.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 08:49:02 am
Thats what the Germans and the Japanese do anyway.

In hindsight a lot of that has been smoke and mirrors.

Both countries have major manufacturers that have been caught out demanding and also claiming tight tolerances and performance levels that they cannot actually meet! They made sure the build quality was high, in other words they put on a nice clean set of clothes, and nobody bothered to ask questions about the other performance or technology claims.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 13, 2019, 10:07:47 am
In hindsight a lot of that has been smoke and mirrors.

Both countries have major manufacturers that have been caught out demanding and also claiming tight tolerances and performance levels that they cannot actually meet! They made sure the build quality was high, in other words they put on a nice clean set of clothes, and nobody bothered to ask questions about the other performance or technology claims.

True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 11:35:13 am
True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.

I recently went from my Jeep Wrangler to a 79 Series Landcruiser.  The difference in build quality is stark.  However, Toyota has got away with building a 4WD with different front and rear track and that’s critical if the vehicle is used off the bitumen.  Dominating the market has allowed Toyota to save money and pass the cost of addressing their issue on to the consumer.

I have owned a Ford, but it was actually a Nissan rebadged under the Button plan.  I have never owned a Holden but I had a long term loan of my brother’s circa 1969 Holden Premier.  It had a 253 cu in V8 and a three speed column shift.  It was long in the tooth then but still went like sh1t out of a shanghai ????
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 11:49:17 am
True, but it still works.  people swear by German and Japanese engineering.

Can they help it, isn't it just a pareidolia or similar cognitive bias effective?

Once they have heard or read the spin they develop a cognitive bias in the absence of contradictory evidence, it's the same mechanism that allows fake news and propaganda to flourish. Whether you read, hear or see such advice you are cognitively prime to believe it. The visual version of this is pareidolia when you cannot unsee some pattern once someone has pointed it out to you. There are audible and written words equivalents of this phenomenon.

Media organisations like newspapers and programs like ACA and 60 Minutes rely on priming your cognition to agree with them, but they are irresponsible and cannot undo what they did. Which is why for example despite being proven to have cheated the system and media heavily reporting that people keep buying VW cars like Golf's, ignoring any number of reports showing those cars are not the quality people believe and that VW cheated the system. Joe Average cannot verify the performance figures, he relies on professional media to do this, but the internet is full of bloggers and now "professional influencers" who profit from product placement and promotion. The same reason people continue to believe climate change is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and the new wave of believers that the world is flat.

It's why I'm so strong on defending our club in the media, if you let people keep bashing us without restraint being submissive and timid becomes part of the club's culture. Insidiously it's creeps into the playing and coaching group psyche.

Like the way our AFLW keeps losing.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 13, 2019, 01:34:00 pm
I have owned a wide range of vehicle brands over the journey, local, Japanese and European,  but from experience and observation, the Toyota products have impressed me most in terms of reliability and build quality. However some of these vehicles have had their issues.

The only Holdens I've owned were Commodores, standard fare which I found were basically OK but had their quality issues such as poor fittings and fixtures. On one I recall in particular was the side of the driver's seat, where it was rubbed  during getting in/out. It wore through in a couple of years. That was quite annoying as it was just  out of warranty and the replacement cover was hard to get, expensive and needed to be fitted by a motor trimmer at my expense

The Lexus, OK more expensive, was light years ahead. This is now getting on a bit but still a good car (fingers crossed!).
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 02:12:43 pm
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 02:43:57 pm
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!

Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combined Mass are the most meaningful measures.  Many vehicles can only legally achieve their towing capacity with absolutely nothing in the vehicle - including the driver  :)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 13, 2019, 03:15:04 pm
Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combined Mass are the most meaningful measures.  Many vehicles can only legally achieve their towing capacity with absolutely nothing in the vehicle - including the driver  :)

Towing can be a trap for the unwary in other ways too DJC. For instance, my old Troopy with the 1HZ motor and 5 speed gearbox was not an ideal towing truck due to the design and construction of it's gearbox. If they are to be used for towing then 5th gear(overdrive) should NOT be used, and a gearbox upgrade would be a wise move - or even avoid this model altogether if you want to tow a larger trailer. This gear, i.e. 5th,  is strictly a highway cruising gear in this model. Later versions (turbo) were OK. Anyway, I digress.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 13, 2019, 04:32:46 pm
I found many failings with different vehicles.

But the main problem I have found as the driver is vehicle stability under extreme breaking, in strong cross winds and on steep descents. Some of the vehicles listing equal or greater towing capacity, than our current Toyota, were relative rubbish under challenging conditions. I can't relate how different it is to have a vehicle you can be confident in when towing 2 or 3 tonnes of float, driving goes from being a stressful fatigue filled chore to an enjoyment.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 13, 2019, 04:42:16 pm
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.

One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!

Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep is about the worst car entity selling in Aus.......no service backup, crap engineering and if you look at the new Wrangler its not fit to drive on the road, I dont know how they can
sell them....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 06:57:12 pm
Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep is about the worst car entity selling in Aus.......no service backup, crap engineering and if you look at the new Wrangler its not fit to drive on the road, I dont know how they can
sell them....

That’s not what my Jeep buddies say; they’re queuing up to test drive the JL Wrangler  :)  All JLs sold in Australia will have AEB, the absence of which was one of the main reasons for the 1 star NCAP rating and the chassis and integrated roll cage makes them a very safe car if you are involved in a collision.

I didn’t really have any issues with Jeep dealers and FCA, after some poor publicity, is actually engaging with Jeep owners.  However, like many 4WDs, trying to squeeze more power out of small diesels leads to reliability problems, particularly when you’re driving in remote areas.  The JL diesel is 2.2l, my JK had a 2.8l diesel.  Cost cutting is also a major problem with vulnerable wiring looms and suspension and drivetrain components that don’t last as long as they should.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 13, 2019, 09:44:08 pm
I found many failings with different vehicles.

But the main problem I have found as the driver is vehicle stability under extreme breaking, in strong cross winds and on steep descents. Some of the vehicles listing equal or greater towing capacity, than our current Toyota, were relative rubbish under challenging conditions. I can't relate how different it is to have a vehicle you can be confident in when towing 2 or 3 tonnes of float, driving goes from being a stressful fatigue filled chore to an enjoyment.
Been a Toyota Landcruiser man for years. Throw the rest away AFAIC.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 13, 2019, 09:50:41 pm
That’s not what my Jeep buddies say; they’re queuing up to test drive the JL Wrangler  :)  All JLs sold in Australia will have AEB, the absence of which was one of the main reasons for the 1 star NCAP rating and the chassis and integrated roll cage makes them a very safe car if you are involved in a collision.

I didn’t really have any issues with Jeep dealers and FCA, after some poor publicity, is actually engaging with Jeep owners.  However, like many 4WDs, trying to squeeze more power out of small diesels leads to reliability problems, particularly when you’re driving in remote areas.  The JL diesel is 2.2l, my JK had a 2.8l diesel.  Cost cutting is also a major problem with vulnerable wiring looms and suspension and drivetrain components that don’t last as long as they should.

New Wrangler Failed Euro Ncap 64kmh crash test into a barrier, driver and front passenger survival marginal....thats disgraceful....N Pillar connection failed with transfascia beam, stairwell structurally failed at 50kmh...
AEB is being used to bump up the Ncap rating.........they didnt even bother with the 32kmh side crash pole test because its such a deathtrap.
Its structural performance in crashing is 50%.......you wouldnt put roadkill in a wrangler....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lusvRULYQ


Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2019, 10:02:52 pm
New Wrangler Failed Euro Ncap 64kmh crash test into a barrier, driver and front passenger survival marginal....thats disgraceful....N Pillar connection failed with transfascia beam, stairwell structurally failed at 50kmh...
AEB is being used to bump up the Ncap rating.........they didnt even bother with the 32kmh side crash pole test because its such a deathtrap.
Its structural performance in crashing is 50%.......you wouldnt put roadkill in a wrangler....

Of course, the NCAP testing isn’t biased towards European cars ... and I’ve seen the footage. 

I know several Jeepers who have survived major collisions because Jeep hasn’t followed the sheep and made vehicles softer.  I was always concerned about my vehicle’s reliability on outback trips but never about survivability in the event that things went ask up.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 14, 2019, 08:19:27 am
If you want indestructible for off-road why not just gets some army surplus!

https://www.australianfrontlinemachinery.com.au

1/2 the price and 3x the value!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on February 14, 2019, 01:48:06 pm
Can they help it, isn't it just a pareidolia or similar cognitive bias effective?

Once they have heard or read the spin they develop a cognitive bias in the absence of contradictory evidence, it's the same mechanism that allows fake news and propaganda to flourish. Whether you read, hear or see such advice you are cognitively prime to believe it. The visual version of this is pareidolia when you cannot unsee some pattern once someone has pointed it out to you. There are audible and written words equivalents of this phenomenon.

Media organisations like newspapers and programs like ACA and 60 Minutes rely on priming your cognition to agree with them, but they are irresponsible and cannot undo what they did. Which is why for example despite being proven to have cheated the system and media heavily reporting that people keep buying VW cars like Golf's, ignoring any number of reports showing those cars are not the quality people believe and that VW cheated the system. Joe Average cannot verify the performance figures, he relies on professional media to do this, but the internet is full of bloggers and now "professional influencers" who profit from product placement and promotion. The same reason people continue to believe climate change is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and the new wave of believers that the world is flat.

It's why I'm so strong on defending our club in the media, if you let people keep bashing us without restraint being submissive and timid becomes part of the club's culture. Insidiously it's creeps into the playing and coaching group psyche.

Like the way our AFLW keeps losing.

I generally think that these are arbitrary claims, originating in old world times.

i.e.  Italian Leather.

All of it comes from different animals, in different countries using the same process to create.

Therefore, why is it only Italian leather that is expensive??

The answer is, that most of this stuff is from ROMAN times when manufacturing and products were different in every country.

These days they take the same raw materials, and manufacture something using the same materials, therefore, the only difference becomes the overheads, and quality control measures.

The only real difference can be where the money is invested as part of the developement process.  This is why your 2nd/3rd series of any car is likely to be the one where all the bugs are ironed out and things just work and work well, the last one will be the cheapest one to manufacture with perhaps the most flaws due to using inferior ingredients to achieve the same build and using slight visual upgrades and a few bonus extras, and your 1st one is the most experimental with varying results.


Long story short, apply that last paragraph in bold to any make, model or manufacturer and you will likely walk away with a good vehicle rather than stating the exact same fallousies we are discussing.

That being said, I think Nissan make the best car for a cross between build quality, service, reliability, aesthetics and price point. 
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 14, 2019, 02:09:14 pm
That being said, I think Nissan make the best car for a cross between build quality, service, reliability, aesthetics and price point.

Yes, I think the Nissan low end and high end are quite good, I've friends with Juke and GT-R and they are very happy. Funnily a friend has the 370z and they are not so happy with that, they think aspects of it are cheapened to fit into the price range.

Recently the new Mazda 6 has also shown some promise, but only the top end Atenza seems to offer good value for money in things the average driver won't notice like thicker glass, lower profile tyres stiffer suspension coupled with the turbocharged engine. A bunch of cosmetic things like leather and sunroof as well.

I have no idea why 5.0L Mustangs and Chevrolet is selling so well, the Kia Stinger is a far superior performance car.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 14, 2019, 04:32:18 pm
Always had cruisers and got an older Prado,  but have only had them for work purposes, which involves a lot of hard off road use,  dust,  creek crossings and rock crawling.  All fwd have issues,  but at least the older Tojos can be repaired in the bush.   The newer V8 ones with the differing front and rear track widths are  dogs in sand.

We're looking at the Merc cruiser wannabes when we upgrade the fleet. If the army have 'em they must be solid.

Rangers are poser Utes for twenty something tradies.  We destroyed a hire one inside a week in the Tanami.

Don't care for electric whiz bang cog swappers... When crawling down a 60 degree slope I feel a lot more comfortable locking it into low range and idling them down.

Missus wants a town car,  been looking at the Stinger,  certainly goes hard.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 14, 2019, 05:51:04 pm

Missus wants a town car,  been looking at the Stinger,  certainly goes hard.
I just bought Mrs G2C a demo model Golf R, if youre after something that goes hard with all the bells and whistles, have a look at one of those. Is a dead set weapon in race mode and drives a granny's car in eco mode.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2019, 06:12:22 pm
re Jeep....

My old man bought one maybe 18 months ago now.

AFAIK, he hasn't had any problems with it.....but it took him an extra 3 months to get it, and when he did, it still wasn't what he asked/signed/paid for. He had to threaten to take it back and leave it at the dealership, multiple phone calls and emails to get it sorted. Customer service was THE worst he's ever experienced, and thats not from the dealership, thats from head office.

The problem? Sat nav. He wanted it, he paid for it, they said he could have it, they didn't give it to him. Blah blah blah....drawn out forever....so yes, he now has sat nav. But he says its very average and just uses his phone most of the time anyway.

Said he would never go through Jeep again.

Both me and my uncle (his brother) tried to word him on them before he coffed up the coin. He doesn't listen.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 14, 2019, 06:32:57 pm
I would not go near Chrysler as I found their dealer attitude and service to be appalling, not that I owned one. I agreed to drop off a company vehicle (Voyager) at the dealers on my way home from work, the dealer having given the undertaking they would take me home, about 5 kms away. When I got there they took the vehicle and then claimed to be too busy to take me home!! I was just left high and dry, and in the end had to phone my wife to come and get me. I've hated Chrysler ever since. Aren't they part of the Jeep group?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: bmaurizio on February 14, 2019, 08:19:45 pm
I just bought Mrs G2C a demo model Golf R, if youre after something that goes hard with all the bells and whistles, have a look at one of those. Is a dead set weapon in race mode and drives a granny's car in eco mode.

 Yup VW Golf goes like the wind if one drives it hard, good traction and comfortable over longer distances.  It’s been huge for years in Europe. Not cheap, though.

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2019, 09:40:21 pm
I would not go near Chrysler as I found their dealer attitude and service to be appalling, not that I owned one. I agreed to drop off a company vehicle (Voyager) at the dealers on my way home from work, the dealer having given the undertaking they would take me home, about 5 kms away. When I got there they took the vehicle and then claimed to be too busy to take me home!! I was just left high and dry, and in the end had to phone my wife to come and get me. I've hated Chrysler ever since. Aren't they part of the Jeep group?

Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge....all together and all shizen.....customer service is appalling and they dont carry enough spares either, mate bought a Dodge Journey and it lived up to its name...Dodgy.....spent more time at the dealers than on the road and they only have a few service technicians fully trained to work between dealerships to diagnose faults. Then the same crapbox was re-badged as a Fiat....just the worst car maker combo on the planet..
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2019, 09:48:11 pm
Always had cruisers and got an older Prado,  but have only had them for work purposes, which involves a lot of hard off road use,  dust,  creek crossings and rock crawling.  All fwd have issues,  but at least the older Tojos can be repaired in the bush.   The newer V8 ones with the differing front and rear track widths are  dogs in sand.

We're looking at the Merc cruiser wannabes when we upgrade the fleet. If the army have 'em they must be solid.

Rangers are poser Utes for twenty something tradies.  We destroyed a hire one inside a week in the Tanami.

Don't care for electric whiz bang cog swappers... When crawling down a 60 degree slope I feel a lot more comfortable locking it into low range and idling them down.

Missus wants a town car,  been looking at the Stinger,  certainly goes hard.

Kia are a reasonable company in terms of backing their cars and looking after customers same with Hyundai, its a pity a lot of the other car makers are not so service/customer care orientated.
Rangers are Fords..which means crap customer care and lie after lie in terms of service.....

When you go into a Toyota dealership. no one bothers you much or hassles you thats because they dont have too beg you to buy their cars and also why they wont bargain much.....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 14, 2019, 10:20:34 pm
Toyota,  like all manufacturers, slug you for spares....it's a bloody racket of epic proportions.  Toyota's spares are so complicated they have a job called "parts interpreter", but that doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to get what you want....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 14, 2019, 10:26:50 pm
Toyota,  like all manufacturers, slug you for spares....it's a bloody racket of epic proportions.  Toyota's spares are so complicated they have a job called "parts interpreter", but that doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to get what you want....

I wasn't impressed when I've had dealings with my local Toyota spares dept. The guys ranged from unhelpful (useless) to downright bloody rude. However I found a good third party spares dealer close by who could get everything I needed, cheaper and with a better customer service ethos.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2019, 07:32:47 am
I wasn't impressed when I've had dealings with my local Toyota spares dept. The guys ranged from unhelpful (useless) to downright bloody rude. However I found a good third party spares dealer close by who could get everything I needed, cheaper and with a better customer service ethos.

Our local Toyota dealer (Mrs DJC has a Toyota C-HR) has been very good so far.  However, that may be more about the laid back and friendly attitude that seems to permeate the population of Sleepy Hollow (aka Geetroit).
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on February 15, 2019, 07:51:14 am
Our local Toyota dealer (Mrs DJC has a Toyota C-HR) has been very good so far.  However, that may be more about the laid back and friendly attitude that seems to permeate the population of Sleepy Hollow (aka Geetroit).

Yes, I think you would get a more friendly approach away from The Big Smoke. Also, customer service probably varies from dealer to dealer, but we mainly have our own experiences to go on.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 15, 2019, 10:57:56 am
Toyota,  like all manufacturers, slug you for spares....it's a bloody racket of epic proportions.  Toyota's spares are so complicated they have a job called "parts interpreter", but that doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to get what you want....
I'll pay that. I damaged the wing mirror on my Prado reversing down the driveway. Replacement cost from Toyota? $1300 plus painting for colour coding! Solution? Off to the wreckers and got one for $400. Meanwhile, I pulled the old one apart, pulled out the broken indicator and damaged fold back motor, sourced new ones on ebay and fixed it for $110. Now I have a spare for next time or can sell it for $510 and make my money back.
Replacement genuine windscreen? $2100. Left the chip in it!!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 15, 2019, 01:31:31 pm
Love Clint in Gran Torino when his son drives off in a GXL cruiser......grrrrrr
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: northernblue on February 16, 2019, 11:15:53 pm
Love Clint in Gran Torino when his son drives off in a GXL cruiser......grrrrrr

That movie made me realise that Clint can’t act... he’s just Clint ! ????
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on February 17, 2019, 02:30:51 pm
Some great lines in that film....

Get that cr@p off my lawn

Sometimes you run across somebody  ya shouldnta f@@@ed with

A man can fix anything with a tin of that (WD40), some tape and pliers.

Those being some pearls of Clint wisdom.
Apparently the Hemsworth blokes and their ilk are "male action heros"..... the man with no name, William Munny,  Harry or Josey Wales would eat their kind for breakfast.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2019, 04:48:00 pm
Some great lines in that film....

Get that cr@p off my lawn

Sometimes you run across somebody  ya shouldnta f@@@ed with

A man can fix anything with a tin of that (WD40), some tape and pliers.

Those being some pearls of Clint wisdom.
Apparently the Hemsworth blokes and their ilk are "male action heros"..... the man with no name, William Munny,  Harry or Josey Wales would eat their kind for breakfast.

Bounty hunter #1:
You're wanted, Wales.

Josey Wales:
Reckon I'm right popular. You a bounty hunter?

Bounty hunter #1:
A man's got to do something for a living these days.

Josey Wales:
Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 17, 2019, 04:56:20 pm
We all have it coming kid!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Tragic on February 19, 2019, 04:45:42 pm
Mister Eastwood's first name says it all when spelled in capitals.

Love him.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2019, 06:12:55 pm
Just revisiting the death trap that is the Jeep Wrangler, ingloriously has achieved a one star Ancap safety rating and those disgraceful officials at Fiat Chrysler couldnt give a rats clacker about you and your loved ones.
At 64Kmh in the frontal impact barrier test with 40% contact on the drivers side the front passenger compartment starts to collapse, so your loved ones are going to be die in agony on the side of the road in an accident that in any other normal car they would be shook up but walk away from.
These structural crapheaps shouldnt be allowed on the road even though they come with AEB and numerous other toy safety devices, the spin from Fiat Chrysler about these cars is also amazing claiming they are engineering upgrades etc etc....they spent a lot of money changing the aero dynamics of the car to reduce the fuel costs but sacrificed structural safety. In the encap tests they didnt even bother with the side pole impact test as it was just assumed these master pieces of engineering wouldnt hold up.
And to think they want to charge you 75K for a Rubicon in Aus....

Good news for Nissan/Mitsubishi buyers too, as if it wasnt bad enough that Renault have allied themselves with them and screwed with their engineering  it appears Renault want to take over Fiat Chrysler too.....I'd be avoiding all those brands...
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2019, 06:19:37 pm
Thanks for that EB. I really need to brush up on this sort of knowledge. We've driven Mazdas for decades, and we simply buy those now by default.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2019, 06:28:25 pm
Thanks for that EB. I really need to brush up on this sort of knowledge. We've driven Mazdas for decades, and we simply buy those now by default.

Paul, good choice ...Mazda's are good well designed vehicles and the after sales service backup is ok too....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2019, 07:11:53 pm
Paul, good choice ...Mazda's are good well designed vehicles and the after sales service backup is ok too....

Thanks EB.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on June 09, 2019, 08:45:54 pm
I'll stick with Subaru outbacks ... very good in all aspects.  Jeeps are just bad news
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2019, 11:35:30 pm
As an ex-Wrangler owner, I have to say that I can’t fault the protection they provide to the occupants.  Not that I needed it myself but several of my Jeep buddies were involved in serious accidents and the integrated roll cage enabled them to walk away.  Indeed, most Wranglers that have rolled can be made roadworthy and have the rollover record deleted from the onboard computer.  In fact, a young friend roiled one on a steep track last month and was able to get it back on its feet, drive home, replace some panels and get a roadworthy for it within a week.

If you want a capable 4WD with a live front axle and ladder chassis, you’re going to run foul of ANCAP ratings.  My 79 Series Landcruiser doesn’t have an ANCAP rating because Toyota couldn’t be bothered (the 2016 single cab model has a 5 star rating).

If I was in the market for a genuine outback touring, boghole ploughing, rockcrawling 4WD, I wouldn’t be too concerned about ANCAP ratings.  However, I would be concerned about reliability and build quality and that’s where I believe that Jeep lets its buyers down.

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: dodge on June 09, 2019, 11:45:50 pm

Good news for Nissan/Mitsubishi buyers too, as if it wasnt bad enough that Renault have allied themselves with them and screwed with their engineering  it appears Renault want to take over Fiat Chrysler too.....I'd be avoiding all those brands...

Issues with Renault - genuinely curious to know them? I understood that the chassis and engines are Nissan incl the CVT, electronics are Samsung, design French.  Nissan hasn't changed not sure about Mitsubishi.  I do have a history of owning Renaults  still going with the 2002 Clio.  Much more fun driving that than some other small cars.   More recently, newer Megane and Koleos made in the new alliance days are solid, comfortable rides - never had an issue with them. 
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on June 10, 2019, 08:29:53 am
An old joke in 4WD circles... It's a Jeep limited.... Very limited.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on June 10, 2019, 10:12:46 am
An old joke in 4WD circles... It's a Jeep limited.... Very limited.

The vast majority of people I know who have purchase one to tow stuff regret it, after their first downhill fright they nearly all end up in Landcruiser, Patrol or Pajero, some end up in Land or Range Rover but that's been for suburban towing of Sweeties Pony Float!

Know a couple of people that have just purchased RAM or F-Series for when they need a bigger boat, and one Hummer owner! No real feedback yet!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on June 10, 2019, 10:51:54 am
The V8 turbo diesel cruisers we use for work are phenomenal.  Pulled an 1800 litre water trailer the other day through sand,  hardly knew it was there.  But I'd hate the fuel bills.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on June 10, 2019, 11:20:27 am
The V8 turbo diesel cruisers we use for work are phenomenal.  Pulled an 1800 litre water trailer the other day through sand,  hardly knew it was there.  But I'd hate the fuel bills.

Yeah, in the end I gave up on various twin cabs and crew cabs and we bought a turbo diesel landcruiser for the girl to tow her trotters around, she says she doesn't even notice when two of them are on the back, and they weight about 600kg a piece plus a 1800kg float! Happy wife happy life!

The mates tell me the fuel bills are the interesting thing for the Ram, F-Series and Hummer. Because the bills don't change that much under load, they've sh1t economy unloaded or fully loaded! ;D But all three have those smart engine management systems, they basically turn off cylinders when you are towing on freeways or holding speed on straight level roads, so they are not as bad as you think for a vehicle rated at +4500kg towing! Pays to have a soft foot!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on June 10, 2019, 11:57:18 am
The V8 turbo diesel cruisers we use for work are phenomenal.  Pulled an 1800 litre water trailer the other day through sand,  hardly knew it was there.  But I'd hate the fuel bills.

I’ve got a 79 Series.  When we did the Madigan Line last year, my fuel consumption was 14l/100km.  The three 200 Series on the trip all got around 28l/100km.  The next best performer was the Grand Cherokee with 17l/100km.  All diesels of course.

It seems that the twin turbos on the 200 Series mean that they are working hard most of the time.  The 79 Series has a single turbo and only works hard when it has to ... a bit like a former Blue running around in the SANFL  ;)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2019, 12:20:40 pm
Dodge RAM....more junk... cracked engine blocks, junk universals...also buy a welder you will need it.

re: Nissans...CVT's are the worst on the planet, what company these day only offers a 3 year warranty...dont buy Nissan.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2019, 12:37:04 pm
As an ex-Wrangler owner, I have to say that I can’t fault the protection they provide to the occupants.  Not that I needed it myself but several of my Jeep buddies were involved in serious accidents and the integrated roll cage enabled them to walk away.  Indeed, most Wranglers that have rolled can be made roadworthy and have the rollover record deleted from the onboard computer.  In fact, a young friend roiled one on a steep track last month and was able to get it back on its feet, drive home, replace some panels and get a roadworthy for it within a week.

If you want a capable 4WD with a live front axle and ladder chassis, you’re going to run foul of ANCAP ratings.  My 79 Series Landcruiser doesn’t have an ANCAP rating because Toyota couldn’t be bothered (the 2016 single cab model has a 5 star rating).

If I was in the market for a genuine outback touring, boghole ploughing, rockcrawling 4WD, I wouldn’t be too concerned about ANCAP ratings.  However, I would be concerned about reliability and build quality and that’s where I believe that Jeep lets its buyers down.

If you are rock hopping and not doing any speed then you may get away with it but on a highway in a moderate front on accident where normal cars would protect you you are going to
be scraping the front passenger out of that crumpled cabin, not much fun in the back either where the protection is equally poor.
The A pillar and trans facia beam connection collapses which is unacceptable in a modern car....you are much more likely to die in a moderate front on accident if you drive a Wrangler.

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on June 29, 2019, 12:04:20 pm
My brother in law's mate is competing in the Beijing to Paris rally in a 1975 Rolls Royce.  The fifth placed vehicle at around the halfway mark is an EH Holden.

The leader is ...





a Leyland P76  :o
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on June 29, 2019, 12:22:32 pm
Dodge RAM....more junk... cracked engine blocks, junk universals...also buy a welder you will need it.

re: Nissans...CVT's are the worst on the planet, what company these day only offers a 3 year warranty...dont buy Nissan.

The last o/back trip I did pretty much included the  most popular 4wd models.  The one that caused problems was a close to new Patrol on which the diff housing cracked.  Luckily there was plenty of diff oil available!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 25, 2019, 05:33:49 pm
Further news on Jeep crape boxes, this poor family having bought their dream car a "a 2013 Jeep Cherokee" 2nd hand in 2015 were toddling down the road when this 7 slot nightmare ground to a halt and refused to start. Those bend over merchants at Jeep initially diagnosed a faulty battery...a new one installed being $600, yep must be lined with gold that battery but it gets worse, they then inform the owner that the fuel pump has also ceased working and has unloaded all its debris into the fuel injection system, can it get worse...yep you bet it can, its a Jeep.....at Jeep they keep the defibrillator in the customer lounge not the workshop and with good reason.
Sorry Mr Lawrence your Jeep Cherokee repair is now $47K...ouch.....these scumbags at Head office Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep were asked for some goodwill but declined, a second hand motor you ask, nope no other mechanics will touch it, Insurance?...no, sorry no claim there either.

Just dont buy a car from Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep....worst car manufacturer on the planet, customer service is non existent and
their vehicles are the biggest lemons on the road .

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/stay-right-away-family-claims-50000-jeep-grand-cherokee-turned-to-dust/news-story/3628effa5aa56404bef536e9e115d994
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on September 25, 2019, 07:23:09 pm
A bit slow with that one EB.  It’s old news that Jeep have offered to fix their Grand Cherokee gratis.  There is also some doubt about whether it’s possible for fuel pump debris to defeat the fuel filter.

Of more concern is the investigation of faulty chassis welds on the JL Wrangler.

Of course, GM’s massive recall of vehicles for faulty brakes is relevant too.

By the way, the Beijing to Paris rally was won by the Leyland P76 and the EH Holden finished in the top ten.  My brother in law’s mate’s big standard Roller finished - with the co-driver pushing it the last 10 metres to the finish line ????

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 25, 2019, 07:46:23 pm
A bit slow with that one EB.  It’s old news that Jeep have offered to fix their Grand Cherokee gratis.  There is also some doubt about whether it’s possible for fuel pump debris to defeat the fuel filter.

Of more concern is the investigation of faulty chassis welds on the JL Wrangler.

Of course, GM’s massive recall of vehicles for faulty brakes is relevant too.

By the way, the Beijing to Paris rally was won by the Leyland P76 and the EH Holden finished in the top ten.  My brother in law’s mate’s big standard Roller finished - with the co-driver pushing it the last 10 metres to the finish line ????

Thanks for the update DJ, reckon those bad press stories forced FCJ to fix the car......Wranglers....you know my opinion on Jeep's ;)
Wouldnt buy a Holden either, more atrocious after sales support, they were good but not anymore, ditto for Ford.
The Roller did well to get close to the line, EH I can believe but the P76??...like to check that car out, cant be original?? :o
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on September 25, 2019, 08:17:27 pm
Thanks for the update DJ, reckon those bad press stories forced FCJ to fix the car......Wranglers....you know my opinion on Jeep's ;)
Wouldnt buy a Holden either, more atrocious after sales support, they were good but not anymore, ditto for Ford.
The Roller did well to get close to the line, EH I can believe but the P76??...like to check that car out, cant be original?? :o

I think that most of the contestants couldn’t believe that the Roller wasn’t modified.  Alan fitted electric cooling fans and they killed the battery 10m from the finish line.

The P76 and EH probably don’t have many original parts ????

BTW, my daughter has just ditched her Jeep for a Prado - and she and her husband are well aware of Prado issues.  Hopefully, they’ve got a good one ????
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: malo on September 26, 2019, 08:49:26 am
Thanks for the update DJ, reckon those bad press stories forced FCJ to fix the car......Wranglers....you know my opinion on Jeep's ;)
Wouldnt buy a Holden either, more atrocious after sales support, they were good but not anymore, ditto for Ford.
The Roller did well to get close to the line, EH I can believe but the P76??...like to check that car out, cant be original?? :o

The P76 is (I reckon) a bit unfairly maligned, was a pretty decent car really....just produced & marketed at completely the wrong time as the world was going through the 70s oil crisis & also British Leyland was in free fall with more strikes than work going on.  Had a decent motor & was enormously roomy !
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on September 26, 2019, 09:21:33 am
BL's major problem in the 70s was quality management although there were plenty of others. The Japanese were just in a different league.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: tonyo on September 26, 2019, 10:29:01 am
BL's major problem in the 70s was quality management although there were plenty of others. The Japanese were just in a different league.

"We love football, meat pies, kangaroos and Hyundai cars".......
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 26, 2019, 10:41:26 am
"We love football, meat pies, kangaroos and Hyundai cars".......

Hyundai's and Kia's were rubbish but not anymore and the customer support is probably the best of all car makers.
Keep them for the 7 year warranty in Kia's case then move them on.

Wish I could say the same for Holdens and Fords, customer support is terrible and so are the vehicles in the main.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on September 26, 2019, 11:31:16 am
Hyundai's and Kia's were rubbish but not anymore and the customer support is probably the best of all car makers.
Keep them for the 7 year warranty in Kia's case then move them on.

Wish I could say the same for Holdens and Fords, customer support is terrible and so are the vehicles in the main.

A mate is the head mechanic at a Hyundai dealership.  They recently had a vehicle suffer a catastrophic engine fail with only 800kms on the clock.  Everyone was scratching their heads until my mate discovered that it had been assembled without a head gasket  :o
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on September 26, 2019, 12:10:03 pm
A mate is the head mechanic at a Hyundai dealership.  They recently had a vehicle suffer a catastrophic engine fail with only 800kms on the clock.  Everyone was scratching their heads until my mate discovered that it had been assembled without a head gasket  :o

They must be well made to make it to 800kms without a head gasket, I doubt an olden days Ford or Holden would even make it 10km, actual they might not even make it out of the driveway!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on September 26, 2019, 12:33:23 pm
A mate is the head mechanic at a Hyundai dealership.  They recently had a vehicle suffer a catastrophic engine fail with only 800kms on the clock.  Everyone was scratching their heads until my mate discovered that it had been assembled without a head gasket  :o

Assembler must have had a big night on the soju??

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on September 26, 2019, 12:44:08 pm
Assembler must have had a big night on the soju??

Have you tried the Naval Rating Soju, there is company marketing it in Japan as an alternative to Scotch, at 57% on the rocks it goes alright and is closer in flavour to a Saké­ than a Scotch, very moreish! ;D
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on September 26, 2019, 01:16:35 pm
Have you tried the Naval Rating Soju, there is company marketing it in Japan as an alternative to Scotch, at 57% on the rocks it goes alright and is closer in flavour to a Saké­ than a Scotch, very moreish! ;D

Unfortunately my drinking is quite restricted these days for health reasons so no I haven't tried it.  Sounds good though.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on September 26, 2019, 02:03:57 pm
Have you tried the Naval Rating Soju, there is company marketing it in Japan as an alternative to Scotch, at 57% on the rocks it goes alright and is closer in flavour to a Saké­ than a Scotch, very moreish! ;D

Damn! Something else to add to the shopping list  :)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on September 26, 2019, 02:39:38 pm
Unfortunately my drinking is quite restricted these days for health reasons so no I haven't tried it.  Sounds good though.

Me too, everything in small doses. :(

I've not seen it here in OZ, oddly I was introduced to it in Jakarta! :o

Japanese whiskey, saké and other spirits have become quite popular in Indonesia, and yes I get the contradiction! btw., If you want to try just about any drink on the planet there is a bar on the mezzanine floor in Dubai's Airport that is a library of both global premium spirits and alcoholic despotic sheikhs! If it's a premium alcohol and made anywhere on the globe, one that isn't as common as muck, they've probably got it. If they haven't it's a sure bet by the next time you are travelling through they've had some flown in! An associate refers to it as the Library of Incongruity!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2019, 04:30:52 pm
I'd be drinking more if I owned a Nissan Leaf, story has come to my attention about a 2012 Leaf Owner who has been having battery problems. Been getting about 25k out of the battery with the heater on, so goes to his local Nissan Dealer who says his 5 year battery warranty has expired and he will need to pay for a new battery.
Ok he says and gets an invoice printed out, rubs his eyes, cleans the glasses but the figures and decimal points dont change, $33,000 installed if you dont mind :o
In the hands of consumer affairs now, original car was $53K new, think I'll be sticking to my petrol guzzling, air polluting vehicle until Nissan, Tesla etc and other EV makers can guarantee their batteries for a bit longer and have reasonably priced replacements..
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on October 01, 2019, 04:50:28 pm
.... and shorten wanted conversion to EVs?  With nightmares like this one, rather convincing evidence they're many years short of practicality.  How the hell do you survive on such a pathetic range? 

Let's all go back to DOS 2.0, no mobiles and the horse and buggy    
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on October 01, 2019, 07:42:33 pm
I'm firing up the old Stanley Steamer as we speak!  :))
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on October 01, 2019, 08:13:08 pm
I'd be drinking more if I owned a Nissan Leaf, story has come to my attention about a 2012 Leaf Owner who has been having battery problems. Been getting about 25k out of the battery with the heater on, so goes to his local Nissan Dealer who says his 5 year battery warranty has expired and he will need to pay for a new battery.
Ok he says and gets an invoice printed out, rubs his eyes, cleans the glasses but the figures and decimal points dont change, $33,000 installed if you dont mind :o
In the hands of consumer affairs now, original car was $53K new, think I'll be sticking to my petrol guzzling, air polluting vehicle until Nissan, Tesla etc and other EV makers can guarantee their batteries for a bit longer and have reasonably priced replacements..

The cost of batteries must have skyrocketed since 2017 -

Quote
If you own a 2011 to 2015 Nissan LEAF, replacing the battery will cost you exactly $5,499, plus installation, which the company estimates will take about 3 hours. Owners of 2011 and 2012 cars must also add $225 for a special adapter kit to retrofit the new battery to their cars. 4 Oct 2017

Or someone is telling porkies  :). In fact, the price of EV batteries has plummeted recently.

Back on Jeeps, a punter was quoted $15,000 for six injectors (plus labour) by a dealer in the western suburbs.  They are available from Mopar for $156 a pop.  That is a sale price, reduced from $237.  I imagine that’s US dollars.

It seems that the dealer took the list price and added some zeroes  ::)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on October 01, 2019, 08:17:45 pm
Maybe he was talking to the wrong kind of dealer about the wrong kind of injection?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2019, 09:23:04 pm
The cost of batteries must have skyrocketed since 2017 -

Or someone is telling porkies  :). In fact, the price of EV batteries has plummeted recently.

Back on Jeeps, a punter was quoted $15,000 for six injectors (plus labour) by a dealer in the western suburbs.  They are available from Mopar for $156 a pop.  That is a sale price, reduced from $237.  I imagine that’s US dollars.

It seems that the dealer took the list price and added some zeroes  ::)

Mate who sent me the story sent me this after I questioned the price.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zdtaJeYmw&t=133s

Think I'll believe the Lennock Motors invoice from the ACT in that video over that price of $5499 which was quoted by a journo from Rhode Island, maybe he drives a Nissan for free... ;)

And this:Data collected by Nissan indicates that a LEAF battery should last as long as 22 years, according to Francisco Carranza, Managing Director of Renault-Nissan Energy Services. Nissan monitors various parameters, including charging patterns and battery degradation, on the over 400,000 LEAFs it has sold in Europe since 2011.

And battery warranty is 5-6 years?.....might last 22 years, doesnt mean it will hold any charge though...
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on October 01, 2019, 09:46:47 pm
Direct from Nissan Australia:

Quote
Dear

Capacity of Lithium-ion batteries decrease with time and usage, which is a normal fact of battery technology. Nissan put in place a battery exchange program on April 1st for any customers of a series 1 LEAF where their Lithium-Ion battery no longer provided the owner with the capacity to support their driving range requirements.

This exchange program is only available to Nissan LEAF owners where:

1. The Nissan LEAF is an Australian delivered vehicle
2. The Lithium-Ion battery pack shows a State of Health of 8 bars or less
3. Only in exchange of a working Lithium-Ion battery pack
4. The replacement of the battery must be undertaken at a LEAF certified Nissan Dealer

As of the 1st of April 2019, the retail price of the Lithium-Ion battery pack is $9,990, plus the cost of fitment for this exchange. The removal and replacement time is capped at 5.8 hours.

Whilst the cost is above $10K after labour, it is a 24Kw battery and when you consider the costs of a home battery storage system of that capacity – it actually compares quite favourably.

Thanks,

Ben Warren
National Manager
Electrification and Mobility
Nissan Motor Co. (Australia) Pty. Ltd.

So, they are charging more for a larger capacity battery.  $10K is a fair whack but a long way off $33K.  Even if the vehicle didn't meet the criteria, it's hard to see how the price could treble unless the dealer is scamming.

By the way, the new Nissan Leaf is priced at $49K plus on road costs.  You would probably want to change over at around 3 years to guard against battery failure, and the environmental footprint of a new EV is massive.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: madbluboy on October 01, 2019, 10:01:26 pm
Spoke to an engineer from Nissan a month or so ago and he said they won't be making petrol engines in 2027. Reckons most other car makers are going the same way.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 01, 2019, 10:11:50 pm
Spoke to an engineer from Nissan a month or so ago and he said they won't be making petrol engines in 2027. Reckons most other car makers are going the same way.

Think I read that about Jaguar going that way even sooner, reckon more hybrids between now and then too...
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on October 02, 2019, 07:24:46 am
The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered, unless the rumours about a breakthrough in hydrogen fuelled engines are realised.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on October 02, 2019, 08:14:04 am
So instead of being beholden to OPEC the battery companies will own us.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2019, 09:04:44 am
Spoke to an engineer from Nissan a month or so ago and he said they won't be making petrol engines in 2027. Reckons most other car makers are going the same way.

Mate of mine has just bought a hybrid and I was given an opportunity to drivr it. A bit different to my car but soon got used to its quirks. A pretty seamless transition really. Not sure what full electric would be like.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on October 02, 2019, 01:31:02 pm
Mate of mine has just bought a hybrid and I was given an opportunity to drivr it. A bit different to my car but soon got used to its quirks. A pretty seamless transition really. Not sure what full electric would be like.

Quiet ????

I would miss the rumble of my turbo diesel V8.

I should add that I have just planted 600 trees ????
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2019, 03:13:49 pm
Quiet ????

I would miss the rumble of my turbo diesel V8.

I should add that I have just planted 600 trees ????

Wow - Nissan Leaf pfffft! ;)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 02, 2019, 04:37:02 pm
Wow - Nissan Leaf pfffft! ;)

If I was going EV it would be Tesla, miles ahead tech wise but still not cheap...
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2019, 07:39:26 pm
If I was going EV it would be Tesla, miles ahead tech wise but still not cheap...

EB I would not buy an EV or a hybrid unless there was no other option. A carefully selected used  Lexus still makes a lot of sense to fill my need.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on October 02, 2019, 08:53:29 pm
If I was going EV it would be Tesla, miles ahead tech wise but still not cheap...

We get gouged on price here, Tesla's have almost 150% mark-up compared to the UK!

My mate in London bought two Model X 100D for his business and spent not much more than we can buy just one!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on October 02, 2019, 11:32:55 pm
We get gouged on price here, Tesla's have almost 150% mark-up compared to the UK!

My mate in London bought two Model X 100D for his business and spent not much more than we can buy just one!

Gouged on price?

But we have a free trade agreement and the government says that’s to our advantage  :-\
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2020, 02:21:29 pm
Holden finally axed in Aus, been a disgraceful car dealer for a while now offering woeful service/backup and their management is about as bad as it gets. Pity anyone who has bought a new Holden recently because its going to be worth peanuts, feel for their workers but their management like I said is terrible and they have been dishing up re-badged rubbish product for years now and its no surprise since I started this thread a while back that they have pulled the plug.
Ford will be next......another shocker for service and backup and like Holden have a large list of complaints with the ACCC every year.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 17, 2020, 02:47:44 pm
Holden finally axed in Aus, been a disgraceful car dealer for a while now offering woeful service/backup and their management is about as bad as it gets. Pity anyone who has bought a new Holden recently because its going to be worth peanuts, feel for their workers but their management like I said is terrible and they have been dishing up re-badged rubbish product for years now and its no surprise since I started this thread a while back that they have pulled the plug.
Ford will be next......another shocker for service and backup and like Holden have a large list of complaints with the ACCC every year.
Yes, I try hard to discourage people considering Ford or Holden, at the office we switched over to the Japanese a few years back, trucks, light commercials and cars, we won't be going back to the GM or Ford rubbish. I use to like them because you could fix-em yourself, a bit of a hobby since the days of EH straight motors, but then I realised you had to keep fixing-em yourself because they were always forken broken!

If you want even worse than GM or Ford buy a RAM or Jeep! I can't believe how shoddy some of their stuff is, God Bless America! I've mates who bought RAM just in recent times, mostly to tow big boats or floats, all have off-loaded them, so many weird electrical problems, like they were designed with a CAN Bus by a guy who knows nothing about CAN Bus! One of them had such a weird problem, his day job is running a small excavator that he tows about behind a truck, had the trailer for years. The truck was being serviced so he hooked it up to the RAM, and the cars indicators and electronics went into backwards overdrive, left was right and right was left! The RAM people blamed the trailer! In the end he discovered some weird wiring loom work, apparently something they had done during the LHD/RHD conversion(Not even required just a feck up), and he thought enough was enough!

My son joked about buying one of the new Corvettes, I had to slap some sense into him! These things rattle themselves to bits on the smooth concrete highways of the Southern USA, they've no forking chance here on a corrugated back-road! It'd be like a scene from Looney Tunes with the car disintegrating around you as you slowly ground to a halt!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2020, 02:57:24 pm
Yes, I try hard to discourage people considering Ford or Holden, at the office we switched over to the Japanese a few years back, trucks, light commercials and cars, we won't be going back to the GM or Ford rubbish.

If you want even worse than GM or Ford buy a RAM or Jeep!
Had my say on Jeep/Dodge/Fiat etc....just a laughable company group......RAM's🤣 a post ww2 trabi would be more reliable and have less bits falling of it due to failed welds etc.
About 10-12 decent car brands in Aus, the rest are rubbish...
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on February 17, 2020, 03:11:06 pm
Had my say on Jeep/Dodge/Fiat etc....just a laughable company group......RAM's🤣 a post ww2 trabi would be more reliable and have less bits falling of it due to failed welds etc.
About 10-12 decent car brands in Aus, the rest are rubbish...
btw., Anyone buying 2nd hand at the moment be very careful, especially in the Southern states. They are flooding the market with what seems to be greats deals, but they are write-offs from Qld/NT floods a year or two back. They look great after dipping and painting, but inside the skin and sub-frame they'll be rusting faster than cheese can grow mold. You won't have to take a colander when you go camping in a year or so, you can just strain the veges through the tray! If you have a side impact collision they'll be able to pile the pieces into a small box and courier them home for you!

Get on the Gov website and check out the VIN history before handing over a single cent, if it states "Write-off - Water" run away, run far away!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: madbluboy on May 08, 2020, 05:49:35 pm
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/motoring/motoring-news/jeep-wrangler-rolls-twice-during-safety-tests/news-story/8578e226261bbbfe679871941e459b7a

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 08, 2020, 06:40:00 pm
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/motoring/motoring-news/jeep-wrangler-rolls-twice-during-safety-tests/news-story/8578e226261bbbfe679871941e459b7a



Glad its the test car rolling with dummies in it and not real people, those deathtraps shouldnt be allowed on the road in Australia and Jeep need to get their act together.
More Jeep comedy gold...
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/jeep-aims-for-50000-aussie-sales-122040/
Jeep sold around 5520 units in Aus in 2019......🤔
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on May 08, 2020, 07:21:58 pm
Glad its the test car rolling with dummies in it and not real people, those deathtraps shouldnt be allowed on the road in Australia and Jeep need to get their act together.
More Jeep comedy gold...
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/jeep-aims-for-50000-aussie-sales-122040/
Jeep sold around 5520 units in Aus in 2019......🤔

Never been a Jeep fan but they do seem quite capable off road as I witnessed on a trip to the Simpson Desert a few years ago. However on a later trip to the Canning Stock Route the sobering sight of a burnt out Wrangler sticks in my mind, a victim of the notorious Spinifex, which is highly flammable.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on May 08, 2020, 10:03:43 pm
Downright dangerous ... very unstable
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 09, 2020, 02:06:02 pm
Never been a Jeep fan but they do seem quite capable off road as I witnessed on a trip to the Simpson Desert a few years ago. However on a later trip to the Canning Stock Route the sobering sight of a burnt out Wrangler sticks in my mind, a victim of the notorious Spinifex, which is highly flammable.

Early Jeeps were tough and great off road , which has been half of their appeal IMO but the quality started slipping and once they became a multi merged entity they have become dangerous and their service appalling.
I get it that long time Jeep owners love the brand but I think that was based on the old Jeeps especially the Grand Cherokees but the new variety are poorly designed and if I was going anywhere off road it would be in a Toyota Landcruiser only.
The SUV craze was probably spawned from the old Jeeps operating as dual function vehicles but IMO its now a brand especially in Aus that will become extinct as its sales just plummet every year.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2020, 05:15:35 pm
Early Jeeps were tough and great off road , which has been half of their appeal IMO but the quality started slipping and once they became a multi merged entity they have become dangerous and their service appalling.
I get it that long time Jeep owners love the brand but I think that was based on the old Jeeps especially the Grand Cherokees but the new variety are poorly designed and if I was going anywhere off road it would be in a Toyota Landcruiser only.
The SUV craze was probably spawned from the old Jeeps operating as dual function vehicles but IMO its now a brand especially in Aus that will become extinct as its sales just plummet every year.
They are the ugliest pieces of junk on the road, wouldn't have one if you paid me to drive to it.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on June 02, 2020, 02:25:33 pm
What are your thoughts on the coming Land Rover Defender 110 P400 HSE?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 02, 2020, 09:43:17 pm
What are your thoughts on the coming Land Rover Defender 110 P400 HSE?
Good vehicles but dear as poison to buy and service. When crap goes wrong, kaching!! Got a mate who has owned them for a while, has plenty of coin but still whinges at the costs. My mechanic had a Disco 4 on the hoist one day and I asked him what it was in for, he said pads and discs, all 4 about $3.5K.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 03, 2020, 11:40:08 am
What are your thoughts on the coming Land Rover Defender 110 P400 HSE?

Expensive, heavy and a few too many option packs IMO ,2k extra if you want anything other than a White one??? Land Rover service and backup isnt exactly anything flash either, is their a manual option or all auto's?....I'd probably go a Lexus if I wanted that end of the market.

Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on June 03, 2020, 11:53:08 am
Expensive, heavy and a few too many option packs IMO ,2k extra if you want anything other than a White one??? Land Rover service and backup isnt exactly anything flash either, is their a manual option or all auto's?....I'd probably go a Lexus if I wanted that end of the market.

My late wife drove a Disco diesel for a few years - quite good but servicing and repairs were very very expensive. Give me a Lexus or Toyota any day if you want that type of vehicle.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Professer E on June 03, 2020, 12:02:34 pm
There's no such thing as cheap 4WD servicing.   Toyota's are OK - still not cheap.   New steering box for the Prado is $5000.

Ever wonder why you can get say M5's for bugger all,  even though they're less than ten years old?   No parts... Or outlandish costs such $16000 for a gearbox temp sensor,  $4000 each for rotors....
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on June 03, 2020, 05:14:34 pm
There's no such thing as cheap 4WD servicing.   Toyota's are OK - still not cheap.   New steering box for the Prado is $5000.

Ever wonder why you can get say M5's for bugger all,  even though they're less than ten years old?   No parts... Or outlandish costs such $16000 for a gearbox temp sensor,  $4000 each for rotors....

Sure but I found Landrover particularly expensive especially anywhere  in the country/bush. Agree also that buying a used prestige vehicle, especially a european one, can be a potential "money pit".
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on June 05, 2020, 10:37:33 am
Perhaps the move to return to Aus manufacturing begins with one negative step?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Baggers on June 05, 2020, 10:51:28 am
Perhaps the move to return to Aus manufacturing begins with one negative step?

Economics is not my strong suit, in fact probably my WAP suit. But it would seem that with the introspection that C-19 has created and rightly or wrongly a definite anti-Chinese sentiment palpable, this may be the ideal time to focus on local production and maybe even a uniquely Aussie car manufacturer which would very likely receive much more support than 6 months ago.

The future problem would no doubt be (in relation to all products) that as any negative Chinese sentiment subsides (maybe it won't? Or maybe China will be so affected by C-19 that it will force a change of govt?), that if China returns to the market place with reasonable products, dirt cheap, history will repeat itself... how can any nation compete with them when their labour is so cheap in comparison to ours and many other Western nations? Just 'spit-balling', as the Yanks would say.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on June 05, 2020, 11:25:51 am
Under the guidance of Scotty from Marketing a return to manufacturing in Australia would be truly antithetical, and I think that idea is being actively supported and confirmed as he tries to replace China with India!

The media report recent efforts as political, it is but that seems to be a very narrow perspective to take in the reporting, the media maybe want to play the anti-China racism card for full ratings effect.

The invitation to India is much more about a wider philosophy, we dig and sell dirt, they make!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on June 05, 2020, 12:52:21 pm
I'm all in favour of lower payroll taxes to (re) emerging industries (i.e. no bailouts) and if the infrastructure exists as well as the talent, I'd have no issue whatsoever with a decent car manufacturer as the filter down economic benefits are indeed considerable.   But NOT electric vehicles save for potential export if the market exists. 

Bit of seize the day logic.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on June 05, 2020, 03:09:34 pm
I'm all in favour of lower payroll taxes to (re) emerging industries (i.e. no bailouts) and if the infrastructure exists as well as the talent, I'd have no issue whatsoever with a decent car manufacturer as the filter down economic benefits are indeed considerable.  But NOT electric vehicles save for potential export if the market exists. 

Bit of seize the day logic.
Many years ago Australia had the opportunity become the SE Asian / Oceania hub for the manufacture of commercial stuff, trains, buses, tractors, trucks, excavators, etc., etc.. It was basically a three way race between Sth Africa, India and Australia. The local push was being supported by Ex.Patriot Sth Africans, they saw a huge opportunity to add value to locally produced steel. Nobody makes buses, trucks, excavators and tractors out of carbon fibre or aluminium, and everybody was starting the process with Australia's iron ore!

The local Pollies turned up their toes and said we can't compete with China, and so they didn't, naturally the others failed,....................not!!!

Sth Africa and India and now thriving hubs for such equipment and we import pretty much the bulk of whatever we need here excluding a few niche items! The Sth African's behind the push here headed home, a couple of them built billion dollar businesses back there doing exactly what they had wanted to do here!

I can't believe how piss-weak we are on the global stage, we are our own worst enemy!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on June 05, 2020, 03:56:11 pm
Egg zackly LP
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 05, 2020, 05:19:28 pm
Many years ago Australia had the opportunity become the SE Asian / Oceania hub for the manufacture of commercial stuff, trains, buses, tractors, trucks, excavators, etc., etc.. It was basically a three way race between Sth Africa, India and Australia. The local push was being supported by Ex.Patriot Sth Africans, they saw a huge opportunity to add value to locally produced steel. Nobody makes buses, trucks, excavators and tractors out of carbon fibre or aluminium, and everybody was starting the process with Australia's iron ore!

The local Pollies turned up their toes and said we can't compete with China, and so they didn't, naturally the others failed,....................not!!!

Sth Africa and India and now thriving hubs for such equipment and we import pretty much the bulk of whatever we need here excluding a few niche items! The Sth African's behind the push here headed home, a couple of them built billion dollar businesses back there doing exactly what they had wanted to do here!

I can't believe how piss-weak we are on the global stage, we are our own worst enemy!
Cant compete when Unions red rag and make factory workers and Labourers earn 100K plus a year.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 05, 2020, 05:29:18 pm
Cant compete when Unions red rag and make factory workers and Labourers earn 100K plus a year.

Coming as I do from a migrant working class background, I've met dozens and dozens of factory workers over the years (my mother was one), and they don't earn 100k, not even half that - not now, and not then.

Don't blame the unions.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 05, 2020, 05:47:15 pm
Coming as I do from a migrant working class background, I've met dozens and dozens of factory workers over the years (my mother was one), and they don't earn 100k, not even half that - not now, and not then.

Don't blame the unions.
I blame the unions 120% for the death of manufacturing in this country.
And as for the construction industry in Victoria in particular, dont get me started as its utterly disgusting. Unions run by thugs, OMG members intimidating everyone on site, driving contractors to the wall. Animals is all they are.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 05, 2020, 05:55:40 pm
I blame the unions 120% for the death of manufacturing in this country.

Dude, that's crazy. You should lay the blame correctly - with the corporate hucksters who worship the false idol of maximum profit above all else. Workers have every right to a safe workplace and to be paid enough to live above the poverty line. Workers aren't the greedy ones, you can be quite certain of that.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 05, 2020, 06:05:22 pm
Dude, that's crazy. You should lay the blame correctly - with the corporate hucksters who worship the false idol of maximum profit above all else. Workers have every right to a safe workplace and to be paid enough to live above the poverty line. Workers aren't the greedy ones, you can be quite certain of that.
Lets just agree to disagree Pauly.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 05, 2020, 06:10:59 pm
Lets just agree to disagree Pauly.

Might be best. You won't find one sensible economist who will say that manufacturers abandon countries because of unions. Not one. You can't have Australian workers on the same wages and conditions as Chinese workers. In fact, not even Chinese workers should work under those circumstances. It's a disgrace.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: kruddler on June 05, 2020, 06:37:52 pm
I blame the unions 120% for the death of manufacturing in this country.
And as for the construction industry in Victoria in particular, dont get me started as its utterly disgusting. Unions run by thugs, OMG members intimidating everyone on site, driving contractors to the wall. Animals is all they are.

Being part of the union is NOT compulsary.

Beware of jumping in bed with the devil.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: PaulP on June 05, 2020, 06:44:52 pm
I blame the unions 120% for the death of manufacturing in this country.
And as for the construction industry in Victoria in particular, dont get me started as its utterly disgusting. Unions run by thugs, OMG members intimidating everyone on site, driving contractors to the wall. Animals is all they are.

You can't use bad examples to invalidate the form. The bad examples should be dealt with by law. Thugs will behave like thugs even in the absence of unions.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 05, 2020, 07:03:44 pm
Chinese workforce loses about 81 workers a day to workplace accidents, thats roughly 30k workers a year.....thats why they manufacture cheaply...they also have plenty of migrant labor as do their neighbor Russia who are happy to also use cheap migrant Labor thats expendable.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 11:57:44 am
I realise this is not of interest to many forums fans, but a few of us like muscle performance cars and car racing, not always modern ones of course!

Interesting to read GM is going ahead with GMSV(General Motors Speciality Vehicles) brand, but will delay the arrival of the RHD Corvette.

Personally, I'd much rather they concentrate on doing a proper RHD version of the Chevy Camero, which I believe at the various dealer levels is a much better formulated and built high performance car than the Mustang pound for pound. I appreciate at the very high end after market there are some impressive Mustang re-spins/upgrades, the cheaper base of the Mustang opens it up to far more after-market interest so the options are numerous.

I'd much rather a proper Camero in RHD than a dodgy conversion, or building a new Corvette as another poor mans Ferrrari.

Mind you, in my youth I was a big Corvette fan, and they'll be a 5th the price and a 10th the maintenance/running cost of Ferrari, Maserati or Astin.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on August 07, 2020, 12:17:25 pm
Post COVID, we might see Aussie brand Holden return.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2020, 12:22:37 pm
I realise this is not of interest to many forums fans, but a few of us like muscle performance cars and car racing, not always modern ones of course!

Interesting to read GM is going ahead with GMSV(General Motors Speciality Vehicles) brand, but will delay the arrival of the RHD Corvette.

Personally, I'd much rather they concentrate on doing a proper RHD version of the Chevy Camero, which I believe at the various dealer levels is a much better formulated and built high performance car than the Mustang pound for pound. I appreciate at the very high end after market there are some impressive Mustang re-spins/upgrades, the cheaper base of the Mustang opens it up to far more after-market interest so the options are numerous.

I'd much rather a proper Camero in RHD than a dodgy conversion, or building a new Corvette as another poor mans Ferrrari.

Mind you, in my youth I was a big Corvette fan, and they'll be a 5th the price and a 10th the maintenance/running cost of Ferrari, Maserati or Astin.
I saw a doc on TV a while about the conversion of the Camaro from Left to RHD being done by HSV at the time. Very impressive, a large % of the dashboard is reusable. Very little by way of "hacking" the body work is required.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 01:10:35 pm
Post COVID, we might see Aussie brand Holden return.
 Yep, heard the same, but I've heard it won't be GM Holden but a new standalone entity using the Holden name.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on August 07, 2020, 04:49:13 pm
Badge engineered Great Wall or similar??
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 07, 2020, 10:32:41 pm
Badge engineered Great Wall or similar??
About the same quality then as a normal Holden?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Swan43 on August 07, 2020, 10:53:12 pm
JFC, car makers? Really? Yankee ones? They taught the Germans everything they should have ignored. As corrupt as oil firms, and there are few of them not up to their armpits in children's blood. Just like the US car firms. Remember, it took Volvo to give the world seat belts. Holden wasn't part of the real horror until GM took it over. Mt Panorma can't hide how revolting 'Detroit' has been.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: cookie2 on August 08, 2020, 08:49:28 am
About the same quality then as a normal Holden?

Ouch! 🤣
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on August 08, 2020, 10:38:52 am
I've heard it might be Isuzu picking up the Holden badge, I think they use to build the bulk of the Rodeo anyway so they probably have all the tooling needed already!

There are also rumors of a new Crewman style ute in development.

Why is this important? Primarily because it gives existing owners a new avenue to buy spare parts and get servicing, the owners of those cars did nothing wrong yet many on the land in particular are effectively left in the lurch, as regional dealerships and supply chains evaporate after our government gave GM a $650M gift to pack up and leave!

We can sit here and discuss the sins of GM, Ford, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagon endlessly, but there are millions of not so wealthy Australians who perhaps bought their first ever new car in the last few years and have been left in the lurch by corporate greed.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Baggers on August 08, 2020, 12:20:24 pm
I've heard it might be Isuzu picking up the Holden badge, I think they use to build the bulk of the Rodeo anyway so they probably have all the tooling needed already!

There are also rumors of a new Crewman style ute in development.

Why is this important? Primarily because it gives existing owners a new avenue to buy spare parts and get servicing, the owners of those cars did nothing wrong yet many on the land in particular are effectively left in the lurch, as regional dealerships and supply chains evaporate after our government gave GM a $650M gift to pack up and leave!

We can sit here and discuss the sins of GM, Ford, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagon endlessly, but there are millions of not so wealthy Australian's who perhaps bought their first ever new car in the last few years and have been left in the lurch by corporate greed.

So true, Spotted One.

Personally I'd love to see an initiative to manufacture a 100% Aussie automotive product... but that's probably pie in the sky stuff and probably demonstrating my economic naivety. But I do reckon that given the choice a lot of Aussie's would support a local product, especially in light of what has happened in recent times (Covid etc).
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: kruddler on August 08, 2020, 12:50:54 pm
So true, Spotted One.

Personally I'd love to see an initiative to manufacture a 100% Aussie automotive product... but that's probably pie in the sky stuff and probably demonstrating my economic naivety. But I do reckon that given the choice a lot of Aussie's would support a local product, especially in light of what has happened in recent times (Covid etc).

Would you pay extra for a sub-standard product?

Not many people would, and thats why we don't have an automotive industry here.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on August 08, 2020, 01:13:56 pm
So true, Spotted One.
It's unconscionable behaviour Baggers.

Firstly, those corporate decisions like GM's departure take years to put into place and effect. They are usually the consequence of many things including foreign investment carrots from the country that they move into. Typically coming after an election cycle, not some overnight shock decision.

Those pricks took $650M off Australian tax payers having already decided to leave, our politicians are pissweak!

Secondly our politicians, at the moment they bitch and moan about spending $100B on keeping people from going COVID insane and having the joint fall into anarchy. Yet that GM decision shows you how little money really means to the politicians.

If they proactively had spent 1/5th of that $100B on local supply chains we'd still have home grown steel, aluminium, pharmaceutical, technologies, automotive, clean energy, water security, etc., etc.., and decent public transport like fast rail for example. We wouldn't just be digging up shizen only to have China add value and profit from it!

Instead they spent years telling us it's all too expensive, but the lie is exposed now!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on August 08, 2020, 01:52:59 pm
The VFT project (been yapped about for 50 years)  Cash for clunkers (Gillard stole that dumb idea from Obama and was a total failure)  French Submarines (only 90 billion and a complete Turnbull FU)  Badgery's creek 2nd SYD airport.  Our politicians are 'effin useless in spending money.

On the car front, at least we're not responsible for the Datsun Sunny.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 08, 2020, 02:26:40 pm
The VFT project (been yapped about for 50 years)  Cash for clunkers (Gillard stole that dumb idea from Obama and was a total failure)  French Submarines (only 90 billion and a complete Turnbull FU)  Badgery's creek 2nd SYD airport.  Our politicians are 'effin useless in spending money.

On the car front, at least we're not responsible for the Datsun Sunny.

Whats wrong with the Datsun Sunny? My mate inherited his mums when we turned 18, he thrashed the living bejesus out of it and it never missed a beat. Never serviced it, just put fuel in it and thrashed it.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on August 08, 2020, 02:49:17 pm
Wouldn't have been caught dead in one when I was 18. "Sunny" ... really? :)

As Effie would say, "how embarassment"

I had a Torana GTR XU1 ... now THAT was a car.  Your first GTC?

 
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 08, 2020, 02:56:44 pm
Wouldn't have been caught dead in one when I was 18. "Sunny" ... really? :)

As Effie would say, "how embarassment"

I had a Torana GTR XU1 ... now THAT was a car.  Your first GTC?

 
Mini Cooper... Got hit by an old red Gilbertsons meat truck.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 08, 2020, 05:17:56 pm
Wouldn't have been caught dead in one when I was 18. "Sunny" ... really? :)

As Effie would say, "how embarassment"

I had a Torana GTR XU1 ... now THAT was a car.  Your first GTC?

 
Mk1 Ford Escort 2 dr. Thumping 1300 hahahaha. I nearly bought a LC GTR (orig) when I was 18, the old man stepped in and told me I'd kill myself in it wouldn't let me buy it. In the lates 70s early 80s, my cousin owned one of the handfull of original Harry Firth built LJ GTR XU1 (red) with a 308 in it. Just imagine what that would be worth today? Priceless. Im actually looking for a for 2dr V8 LJ or LC at the right price (cheap) which I wont find. One day Cap, one day!!
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Baggers on August 08, 2020, 05:25:18 pm
Would you pay extra for a sub-standard product?

Not many people would, and thats why we don't have an automotive industry here.

That would be the proviso... that it was a quality product, but with our labour not cheap and so on, the price would be prohibitive... as I mentioned, I freely admit to economic naivety... but it's nice to dream.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: kruddler on August 08, 2020, 06:40:51 pm
That would be the proviso... that it was a quality product, but with our labour not cheap and so on, the price would be prohibitive... as I mentioned, I freely admit to economic naivety... but it's nice to dream.

I hear you.

I said when the corona virus started that it would be the perfect time to kickstart our own manufacturing industry again.

Even if the governments give tax exemptions to companies down here to keep them afloat, it would be beneficial to the nation. Provide plenty of work for those who can't find any and make us less reliant on those overseas which would help if this happens again in the future (or drags on).
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Baggers on August 08, 2020, 07:23:13 pm
I hear you.

I said when the corona virus started that it would be the perfect time to kickstart our own manufacturing industry again.

Even if the governments give tax exemptions to companies down here to keep them afloat, it would be beneficial to the nation. Provide plenty of work for those who can't find any and make us less reliant on those overseas which would help if this happens again in the future (or drags on).

Totally agree. Local manufacturing makes more sense now considering the world will be different for a while. I suspect many nations will also be considering greater self sufficiency in light of Covid... and the next nasty virus.

As an aside, Mrs Baggers (stuck working from home since March) was telling me that she has spoken with a number (not huge) of corporate heads who are now seriously considering downsizing their premises and having more folks (especially admin) working from home. Many cynical employers have discovered that most folks work well, if not better, from home. The slackers soon reveal themselves through low productivity.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: capcom on August 08, 2020, 07:29:06 pm
Im actually looking for a 2dr V8 LJ or LC at the right price (cheap) which I wont find. One day Cap, one day!!

Keep wishin' GTC ... ya never know.  Always hated the LC grille and their GT steering wheel.  LJ equivs far more attractive.  That 1300 Escort ... oh well, I had one too.  Gutless :)   
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Baggers on August 08, 2020, 07:34:21 pm
Whats wrong with the Datsun Sunny? My mate inherited his mums when we turned 18, he thrashed the living bejesus out of it and it never missed a beat. Never serviced it, just put fuel in it and thrashed it.

Bit like my first car, EH Hydromatic. Thrashed it for a few weeks and successfully killed it... burnt out the electrical system and fckd the transmission. Traded it for a silver XW... it was a ripper, never missed a beat.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 19, 2021, 06:46:17 pm
Honda used to be a revered name in the Aus car Industry, Japanese reliability etc etc...but now have embarked on a ridiculous
campaign to save the brand in Aus after the bean counters in Japan decided the numbers were not adding up.
Of the five models they have in Aus only three are selling at all and the numbers are dropping away quicker than a Great Wall utes value. They boldly claim you can buy a Honda at the same price in any dealership in Aus like they are doing you are a favour...in fact what they really mean is you cant negotiate a best price anymore and they are going to stitch you up for max price anywhere you go. They recently got rid of a few dealers here and in NZ and IMHO are heading down the same path as Holden.
Their shiny flagship is the CRV for about 50k top of the range...for the same money you can get a Mazda CX5 with 70% more power, and a decent 6 speed auto, not that horrible CVT shudder box that comes with the CRV.
In the USA they have the better built Acure which is like their version of Lexus to fall back on but here in Aus its just the CRV, HRV and Civic plus non sellers in the Accord and the Odyssey ...nothing too exciting about any of them and I can see Honda folding up in Aus sooner than later as the sales figures nose dive.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Thryleon on July 19, 2021, 07:11:18 pm
Id rather go Nissan than Honda.  They just make good cars.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 19, 2021, 07:27:58 pm
Id rather go Nissan than Honda.  They just make good cars.
Nissan were better without the Renault partnership IMHO, Honda used to make the best engines but have fallen behind tech wise and are very overpriced. I'd rather Toyota or Mazda but dont expect any special deals or freebies at Toyota either.
The value end of the market are the Korean cars like Kia, Hyundai but I wouldnt be keeping them past their warranty period and the seven year warranties are just a sales gimmick to hook you into 7 years of compulsory service costs which is where car dealers make their real money.
 
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: DJC on July 19, 2021, 07:41:26 pm
I'm thinking that we could re-vamp this thread as a general motor vehicle thread. 

Alternatively, and given the recent digression into reminiscing about favourite cars, would a separate classic/favourite cars thread be worthwhile?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 19, 2021, 08:33:34 pm
I'm thinking that we could re-vamp this thread as a general motor vehicle thread. 

Alternatively, and given the recent digression into reminiscing about favourite cars, would a separate classic/favourite cars thread be worthwhile?
Yeah great idea, separate classic/fave car thread.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on July 07, 2023, 12:14:27 pm
We complained about GM dumping support for Holden, which seems unfair given so many years of trading and so much financial support from local and Federal governments.

Spare a thought for early adopters of Tesla Model S or Model X, Tesla have announced the RHD versions are dead in the water! :o

Cars that are not even a decade old and already consigned to surviving on 2nd hand parts, that's planned obsolescence for you hard at work.

Will they ever obtain break even on carbon credits before they are unrepariable?

At first I thought this was a joke, some sort of weird belated April Fools, but apparently it's true. I've an associate in the UK who's company invested in a whole fleet of Model X to ferry clients and managers around, he is absolutely furious!

Despite this tale of woe, I still regret never being able to buy a Fisker Karma.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Fisker_Karma_EVer_EcoChic_%E2%80%93_Frontansicht_%281%29%2C_6._Juni_2012%2C_D%C3%BCsseldorf.jpg/280px-Fisker_Karma_EVer_EcoChic_%E2%80%93_Frontansicht_%281%29%2C_6._Juni_2012%2C_D%C3%BCsseldorf.jpg)
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2023, 03:22:41 pm
Tesla sales have jumped in Australia.....Model Y is the  2nd best seller in Aus behind Hilux and its sent the Ford Ranger to third.
In fact Tesla sales for June23 have jumped 3900%....EV's overall have gone from 0.1% to around 7% of the market now  and thats down to Albo's generous rebates on novated leasing.
Chinese car sales are now steadily improving across the market across all makers from (MG)Mao's Garage to GWM and its going to be the end of a few car brands in Aus like Honda and Nissan who sales are off a cliff...Honda will be the first to go imho.
Tesla's of course are made in China for anyone who didnt know......even junk car brands like BYD  are getting a foothold with their EV's but buy at your own risk especially when the servicing is carried out by Mycar which is the old Kmart tyre and auto.
The landscape for cars in Aus will be all Chinese in years to come as they will own the EV market or at least be breaking even with Toyota who have had the monopoly but cost of living and high interest rates etc will make more buyers look at cheaper Chinese options.
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: LP on July 07, 2023, 04:12:04 pm
Tesla sales have jumped in Australia.....Model Y is the  2nd best seller in Aus behind Hilux and its sent the Ford Ranger to third.
Yes I read that, but it's bad luck if you bought in early with an S or an X, if you want a new car in the future is downgrading to a Y your only option?
Title: Re: GM to dump Holden
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 07, 2023, 05:06:39 pm
Yes I read that, but it's bad luck if you bought in early with an S or an X, if you want a new car in the future is downgrading to a Y your only option?
Whats a second hand Chinese made EV going to be worth with old batteries? and probably half the km range of the newer versions and twice as slow to recharge?...answer..Not much