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Re: The Voice

Reply #105 –
Quote from: dodge on
Quote from: Gointocarlton on
I found the whole "silence for a week thing" extremely childish given how much work there is to do, poor leadership IMO. Imagine

I get it. They have put in years of hard work of trying to get a solution, one presents and it is not accepted by the public.  This is a big knock back for them.  They need some time to digest, process and think about 'what next'.



Certainly hasn't stopped Peter Dutton getting straight onto the front foot and whacking it back over the sightscreen. 

His true colours are back on show for all to see.  No new referendum , no treaty, give 'em nothing!
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: The Voice

Reply #106 –
I actually think this whole referendum is showing how people are failing to appreciate how much has already been achieved in the name of indigenous rights in this country, and that some of the arguments put up for the yes vote are actually out dated, and out of touch (like our politicians generally are).

I saw an interesting meme on social media.

It shows an indigenous person stating they are not oppressed, and before they finish speaking, a social justice warrior puts a hand over their mouth to silence them, and states "SHH.  Yes you are.  You just aren't aware and need me to whitesplain your oppression for you.  You are feeble and lower than me, and need me to be your saviour.  You cannot get by without me."

I thought it interesting from a social commentary perspective as with all things, an element of truth to go with the satire.

The public voted no, and the people on here as a small sample size are using the following reasons why no got up.

1.  Fear of change.
2.  Racism
3.  Lack of progressive society.
4.  Lack of education.
5.  Lack of empathy.
6.  Conservatism and the rise of right wing politics in lower social demographic areas.
7.  Our spend on the referendum seems to be an excuse, not a reason to vote no.
8.  The campaign was hijacked for political purposes and the electorate was by and large conned with a barrage of half-truths and fabrications.
9.  When it comes to Indigenous affairs, much of the country is either against it or doesn't want to know (apathetic).
10.   We seem to lack the confidence, ethics and maturity to deal with adult issues in an adult way, so the end result is that we are once again hostage to inertia, ostrich behavior, political opportunism and all the rest.
11.  The No vote was a vote of ignorance, nothing else.

The thing is, is it possible that most of these arguments display simply a rising class division in our society?
Those who are more affluent believe they know better, suffer from myopia, and an inability to appreciate that there are more and greater proportions of people out there with a differing opinion.  Its arguable, that the inner city types are less likely to come across indigenous communities and indigenous people in society purely by token of where they reside and the type of social groups they revolve in, their demographics, their background and have benefited from the systemic racism that they are wanting to show they now regret and oppose, and also, believe that the rest of Australia have an under current of racism that they still practice which is why they want to make ammends and vote yes.  Noble, but out of touch.

Looking at the above arguments, its a laundry list, that are hard to argue against because they actually are undefined but have a basis in a truth that will always be opinion and based on emotion and are subjective not objective.  You will find elements of proof for all of the arguments without that being a reason why people voted No but just another factor that stirs up peoples emotions.  It dismisses that people in our current society, as a majority, actually believe that the progress being made for indigenous communities is varying degrees of deemed to be adequate vs what struggles the every day person contends with.  There is actually a bit of a truth, because the initiatives implemented and the progress being made inst a big bang and its fixed, its only measurable over time.  We could do nothing for 50 years and end up with continued ongoing reform and improvement in indigenous communities without the voice for parliament which inherently seeks to create separation of the indigenous communities embedded in the constitution when we simply already want to include them and have given plenty of initiatives to help close the gap. 

I'm 41.  The change in attitude in our society during my lifetime is palpable in every day life for indigenous Australians.  Its a far cry from where things were when I was a child growing up, and from where they were before I was even born.  The stigma of being indigenous was once to be feared.  Thing is, even at a catholic primary school, we had indigenous speakers come to us, and talk to us of the rainbow serpent, and all the other stories associated with dream time, and the dreaming.  Indigenous culture the use of the didgeridoo, boomerang, and what was important in indigenous ways of life including spirits, the elders, and smoking ceremonies.   People my age who were born here, have seen generations of migrants come, setup a life, struggle to speak the dominant English language, yet still work really hard to forge a life for themselves and their kids without the benefits of Abstudy which is still relevant to ensure that higher education is affordable for young indigenous people.  I remember when I was applying for Austudy, that it was highlighted it was means tested and I wasnt elligible.  I also remember there being information on the form that if selected this wouldnt be a negative for an indigenous person which spoke of their mistrust which comes from a historic place of oppression and understandable.   This helped me understand that whilst I wasnt elligible, I was one of the lucky ones who was deemed not to need it.

Picked up our part time jobs, and then made our way into society and full time work.  Ive been lucky enough to work in government organisations which for the last 20 years have been celebrating NAIDOC week, promoting the work of health care services in indigenous communities.  The council offerings for the indigenous people, and advocating for the protection of local fauna and flora.  The ongoing welcome to country we all participate, and the living in suburbs where traditional indigenous names are used on street signs.  The health care services and their indigenous liaison team, the poppy seed muffins, the indigenous people we speak to and hear from in various walks of life.

Things are continuing to progress for indigenous people.  I work with a guy who is Italian by background and his wife is indigenous.  The shame that would have been there to state this 40 years ago, isn't there anymore and the conversation tends to be more of curiosity.  What does this mean for you, your kids, is it difficult to forge these two cultures together etc.  People are moving on, have moved on, and they are tired of being told how racist they are because relics of a bygone era keep telling us how racist we are.  Things continue to move eb and flow, and the under current of the few yelling and screaming racist jibes doesn't mean they are prevalent everywhere.

Its becoming more racist to continue telling us all how racist we are.  Creating a special category in the constitution to recognise indigenous people when we simply refer to them as Michael, Steve, deadly or what not.  We are doing that in all walks of life already, and arguably the constitution changing is a mere formality and legality that many people don't want to see continue to drive in seperation of the indigenous from everyday Australians via an official government legislation. 

The debate I've referenced once on this forum already had 78 year old Ray Martin, telling us all what he thought needed to happen, Malandirri Barbara McCarthy at age 53 telling us all how things are and how they need to be, yet alternatively we had Lydia Thorpe age 50, and Jacinta Price age 42 telling us about how this isnt necessary and better outcomes can be achieved in different ways.  Is it possible the younger people of my vintage are right, and have bigger fish to fry?

Things are continuing to change.  The next generations have much different challenges.  My cousins children, who are a bit younger than me by about 10 years are now looking at their future of health care being paid for out of pocket, private schooling being necessary, affordability of property and life being at the very edge of their tether, and then looking at something like this where the affluent are spending loads of money to achieve a constitutional reform, without spending the money to give the people better outcomes and are getting really irritated by the complete lack of care that our government seems to continually show.  Particularly on the back of a pandemic that has crippled us financially. 

I even saw a reference to spending money on travel and footy games, yet still voting no.  Its not the point.  Those of us who invest a bit of money in enjoying these things in life, dont do so flippantly.  Its calculated and comes with a cost that will be worn in other ways.  Personally, Id prefer getting less judgement and more understanding, rather than seeing the same old same old toys being thrown out of the cot, because people dont agree.

All that being said (and thankyou for indulging me whilst I write a thesis) I recognise that a lot of good still needs to be done to avoid the needless tragedy that continues to occur in indigenous populations.  To avoid the outcomes for people like Kumanjai Walker (apologies if this is the incorrect spelling) and dieing in custody.  We need to avoid them ending up in custody to begin with, but if they do end up in there prevent these things from happening.  No one should die in jail. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson
 

Re: The Voice

Reply #107 –
I think the majority of people made up their minds many months ago as to how they were going to vote, and spent the rest of the time either not giving it any thought, or looking for reasons to justify their vote.

Re: The Voice

Reply #108 –
@ Thry
I can only speak for myself and in terms of Education and Juvenile Justice in NSW and what you say is correct.
The changes in both those areas from the time I began my career until I finished 40 years later was 'chalk and cheese' in terms of specific programming and educational opportunities for indigenous children.
Just about all of these programs are developed and delivered primarily by or in collaboration with indigenous people. (teachers, aides elders)
For many years schools in Juvenile Justice have had a specific Indigenous teacher's aides/consultants.
Cross curriculum areas have contained an indigenous perspective.

I suspect every state would have documentation similar to this....

https://education.nsw.gov.au/teaching-and-learning/aec

Education is one of the core pathways in progressing the opportunities for young indigenous people.
That's not to say that there isn't still a long way to go in a whole range of areas.
Some problems will take an extra effort and resources.
But to say there has been no progress is not correct.

Re: The Voice

Reply #109 –
A large portion of my extended family is indigenous, mostly aunts, uncles, great-aunts and great-uncles many who are / were part of the stolen generation. Some grew up as orphans of the state, some evolved into and then out of the clergy, it wasn't uncommon for females in the stolen generation to take vows, particularly if they were the offspring of mixed relationships.

Oddly, they are not the ones complaining about their life, yet they are the generation frequently portrayed as abused and bitter and looking for remediation.

Many of the matriarchs in our family will tell you they weren't stolen but saved, saved from a lifetime of abuse under a strongly patriarchal culture that saw women and children as possessions. But their opinion is drowned out but screaming children.

The loudest voices of protest are not the victims but their children or grandchildren, who assert that they are abused or under-privileged in some way by their parents history. It's a constant source of angst between older family members and the youth.

How can this difference in perception exist?

I suspect a lot of the loudest protests and complaints grow out of circumstance, not everybody is guaranteed a happy existence, and much like the abuse by the church there will be those in indigenous society that have suffered at the hands of immigrants. They will always be the loudest voices and rightly so, but the volume of speak is not a proxy for the generalisation of circumstance.

In my opinion this is where the Voice failed, it was built on a generalisation that came from listening to the loudest voices.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Voice

Reply #110 –
@Thry...
The take home point appears to be that by acknowledging their 'differences' is bad because it highlights that they are 'different'.

At the same time you point out how things have changed, NAIDOC week etc. Is that a negative? Is it not acknowleding their 'differences'.

I think they can be celebrated and should be celebrated and should be encouraged to be in all parts of our society as much as possible. I'm aware that the reference of 'they' could deemed inappropriate in itself.

I was in the 'its ok to boo adam goodes camp because the person is a flog and people of a different skin colour can be flogs'. Which ultimately is about treating people as equal and not as 'different'. So i understand that side of the debate.

However, in this instance, the benefits far outweight the negatives from what i can tell in terms of a yes vote.
and
Alternatively, the opposing side of a no vote getting up is far more damaging to us as a country and its optics.


Re: The Voice

Reply #111 –
^^  Thats your opinion Kruddler.  Don't you get it?  Its there for all to see.  There is no right or wrong answer, and not even the indigenous people agree.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The Voice

Reply #112 –
@LP

I think what you describe is not a cultural thing, but a generational thing.
IMO the younger 'millenials/xenialls' etc are very quick to cry foul and put their hand out and expect something for nothing.
Whereas the older gen x's or even boomers are more head down bum up and get the job done without whinging about it.

Re: The Voice

Reply #113 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
^^  Thats your opinion Kruddler.  Don't you get it?  Its there for all to see.  There is no right or wrong answer, and not even the indigenous people agree.

That was half my point, i don't think there is a 'right or wrong' answer that suits everybody. I do think there is a 'better' answer though.

Re: The Voice

Reply #114 –
There's nothing good to come out of the no vote. The architects of the Voice proposal put forward the wussiest, most timid, inoffensive thing possible, and we couldn't even give them that. It reflects poorly on us as a nation. 

Re: The Voice

Reply #115 –
Quote from: kruddler on
@Thry...
The take home point appears to be that by acknowledging their 'differences' is bad because it highlights that they are 'different'.

At the same time you point out how things have changed, NAIDOC week etc. Is that a negative? Is it not acknowleding their 'differences'.

I think they can be celebrated and should be celebrated and should be encouraged to be in all parts of our society as much as possible. I'm aware that the reference of 'they' could deemed inappropriate in itself.

I was in the 'its ok to boo adam goodes camp because the person is a flog and people of a different skin colour can be flogs'. Which ultimately is about treating people as equal and not as 'different'. So i understand that side of the debate.

However, in this instance, the benefits far outweight the negatives from what i can tell in terms of a yes vote.
and
Alternatively, the opposing side of a no vote getting up is far more damaging to us as a country and its optics.




Nice. Love your use of the word, 'celebrate' rather than acknowledge. Massive difference.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: The Voice

Reply #116 –
Do we not celebrate indigenous culture though?

I walk through the gate of my grandson's school here in 'redneck' Queensland and the indigenous symbolism is prominent from the entrance all the way down to the classrooms. Posters, playground art, even some of the designs on classrooms. Enter the rooms and you don't have to look far to see more examples. Throughout the year there have been a couple of cultural performances.
Maybe it's a generational thing from this point.
Maybe it's these kids who will live in a country where race isn't a point of difference in terms of opportunity and living standards , but where they can still appreciate the culture of first Australians.
They're not mutually exclusive.

Re: The Voice

Reply #117 –
Quote from: Lods on
I walk through the gate of my grandson's school here in 'redneck' Queensland and the indigenous symbolism is prominent from the entrance all the way down to the classrooms. Posters, playground art, even some of the designs on classrooms. Enter the rooms and you don't have to look far to see more examples.
It's an interesting observation.

I've had some in education system fully support The Voice but complain that they are already drowning in Indigenous Culture in the workplace. They can barely tick a box without a smoking ceremony being conducted and they grow weary of it day after day, they also grow weary of it being used as an excuse for both students and associates. In one case they have been told on certain issues and activities they must comply, but that Indigenous staff and students have a choice so they do not have to comply. I've been told of similar situations in segments of the public service. At best that seems to be a bet each way! :o
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Voice

Reply #118 –
Quote from: Lods on
Do we not celebrate indigenous culture though?

I walk through the gate of my grandson's school here in 'redneck' Queensland and the indigenous symbolism is prominent from the entrance all the way down to the classrooms. Posters, playground art, even some of the designs on classrooms. Enter the rooms and you don't have to look far to see more examples. Throughout the year there have been a couple of cultural performances.
Maybe it's a generational thing from this point.
Maybe it's these kids who will live in a country where race isn't a point of difference in terms of opportunity and living standards , but where they can still appreciate the culture of first Australians.
They're not mutually exclusive
Quote from: Lods on
Do we not celebrate indigenous culture though?

I walk through the gate of my grandson's school here in 'redneck' Queensland and the indigenous symbolism is prominent from the entrance all the way down to the classrooms. Posters, playground art, even some of the designs on classrooms. Enter the rooms and you don't have to look far to see more examples. Throughout the year there have been a couple of cultural performances.

Maybe it's what the school is expected to do in order to retain their funding levels.....
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: The Voice

Reply #119 –
Quote from: tonyo on
Maybe it's what the school is expected to do in order to retain their funding levels.....

I'm more familiar with the NSW system but with State run schools it would have little to do with being tied to funding levels and more to do with curriculum requirements.
Indigenous perspectives would carry across all areas of the school curriculum.

The extent to which a school is 'decorated', the involvement of outside speakers, performers, elder speakers and additional indigenous teacher's aides would be determined by the Principal, teachers and school community.
They would certainly need to demonstrate that these areas are being covered, but it wouldn't affect their funding.

In my time, schools were given a set budget, but there was also extra money assigned that was to be used on designated targeted areas. Aboriginal education was one such area, but how we used that money was pretty much up to us....artists, performers, speakers etc. If we needed a bit of extra cash for things like NAIDOC week we could use some of the global budget.

Next time you're around a kid's or grandkid's schools have a look The cultural influences are genuine and part of the educational process for indigenous and non-indigenous students as well.