This is where we put out our minimum expectations (wins, ladder position, etc) for next season.
Get to it...
inb4 it doesn't matter
Anything less than top 8 is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.
Injuries, especially in the pre-season hurt us last year.
Hopefully it doesn't impact in 2015..... and if we can play the type of football we played in the last part of the year we should win more than we lose.
I'm looking for top 6 as a passmark. If injuries derail the season, then a minimum benchmark set for effort.
Anything less than top 8 is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.
Injuries, especially in the pre-season hurt us last year.
Hopefully it doesn't impact in 2015..... and if we can play the type of football we played in the last part of the year we should win more than we lose.
ummm waite has gone to norf
Top 12
Anything less than top 8 is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.
Injuries, especially in the pre-season hurt us last year.
Hopefully it doesn't impact in 2015..... and if we can play the type of football we played in the last part of the year we should win more than we lose.
ummm waite has gone to norf
Meaningless....4 goals in his last 3 games
Minimum 13 home and away wins and 2 finals victories.
I am hoping that Thomas would finish at least top 5 in the B&F and for
Henderson & Jamison to play minimum of 18 games each. Not much to ask.
Then the defense/forward structure would be sound and the dash and carry would be present in abundance.
Then a top 8 would be my pass mark. :)
Without significant injuries - top 8, minimum.
If we get a few major injuries, the min is a 100% team effort by the 22 blokes who runout, results irrelevant.
If we have your average, 'every club gets them' kinda injuries then i think we should be top 8. If we have some bad luck, like this year with terrible luck, then i think we should hope to improve on 13th still. With a bit of luck going our way with injuries (both for and against) then going into the second or even 3rd week of finals is certainly not out of the question.
Keys...
Can Hendo return to form.
Can Casboult/Rowe continue with their 2014 form.
Can some of the kids continue to develop (Menzel, Cripps, Buckley) and become best 22 players.
Can we find a #1 ruckman.
Difficult question.
I think shedding all of Garlett, Robinson, Waite and McLean combined with Judd and Carrazzo being another year older, might mean that a finals spot is a tough ask.
8th-10th, being highly competitive is my answer.
A million a year for Malthouse over a three year contract means its finals in 2015 or out IMO.....
I have no doubt he'll be gone with no finals.
Top 8 or sack Mick. No questions regarding injuries. We won't be the only side to experience injuries.
Thomas either comes good or he is a waste of money.
Jones either performs or is a waste of time.
The entire squad get a more aggressive approach to being defencive or we cull deeper again comes seasons end. Sticking tackles, running hard both ways, and coming to win in every game we play. Playing 4 quarters of footy, including the last 5 mins of every quarter.
Top 8 and being very competitive in the finals, winning at least one, would be an absolute minimum IMO. I think MM will be gone if we don't achieve that. (It'll be interesting to see if he can get on with SOS anyway if he does come back).
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
Top 8.
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
Who said I think that it is possible?
Mick was appointed to win a flag and I think I'm setting the bar low with just a top four finish.
Top 8, with at least 2 wins against top 4 teams. I need to see us beat a Hawthorn or Sydney to show that we are truly going places.
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
It's been done before.
It's not impossible. ;)
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
Who said I think that it is possible?
Mick was appointed to win a flag and I think I'm setting the bar low with just a top four finish.
I thought I was being fair saying top 6 but this is definitely Mick's 'put up or shut up' year. I guess one bonus if we do go poorly is not having to see him represent our club in a poor manner once he's gone.
Have to make the top 8 this year..... for a pass.
Top 8 - D
Top 4 - C
Grand Final - B
Premiership - A
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
Who said I think that it is possible?
Mick was appointed to win a flag and I think I'm setting the bar low with just a top four finish.
Mick's job is to rebuild the list now. There's about as much chance of him being accountable to that initial standard as there is of Chris Judd appearing in R1 with an afro.
Reckon staying out of the bottom 6 is where the club is focussed.
@IOT
Agree that MM has been tasked with rebuilding the list but I think there would also be an expectation from the board that we will get into the Top 8 next year. CFC has to offer its long-suffering fans some positive signs of progress IMO.
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
Who said I think that it is possible?
Mick was appointed to win a flag and I think I'm setting the bar low with just a top four finish.
Mick's job is to rebuild the list now. There's about as much chance of him being accountable to that initial standard as there is of Chris Judd appearing in R1 with an afro.
Reckon staying out of the bottom 6 is where the club is focussed.
To be honest, I think we'll be lucky to make the eight. We really have to rely on a couple of teams above us falling away. However, I believe that Mick and the club are aiming for finals this year. That's why we're not rebuilding the list but taking some high risk options to address deficiencies. Hopefully, they'll come off and we'll be more competitive than last season.
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
Who said I think that it is possible?
Mick was appointed to win a flag and I think I'm setting the bar low with just a top four finish.
Mick's job is to rebuild the list now. There's about as much chance of him being accountable to that initial standard as there is of Chris Judd appearing in R1 with an afro.
Reckon staying out of the bottom 6 is where the club is focussed.
To be honest, I think we'll be lucky to make the eight. We really have to rely on a couple of teams above us falling away. However, I believe that Mick and the club are aiming for finals this year. That's why we're not rebuilding the list but taking some high risk options to address deficiencies. Hopefully, they'll come off and we'll be more competitive than last season.
What high risk options are you referring to exactly? I would have thought their insistence of a set age group when trading would make people think they are clearly in the 3 - 5 year plan phase. A high risk option is mirroring the doggies with trading the farm for a kid..or a bonafide star for that matter instead of a good promising kid. I'm happy with our trading so far.
Jaksch and Jones are high risk options in my opinion. Neither has done much to date and we seem to be pinning our hopes on them to solve our key position weaknesses. Hopefully, the stars will align and they'll both be 10 year players for us.
Funnily enough I walked right past MM on Collins St the other day. Pass is making finals so top 8 and that would be a good result I reckon.
Not that I am happy with that or we are only that good but to get any higher than 7-8 would mean that we have hardly any serious injuries, Gibbs, Murph, Hendo, Yarran pretty much have to have AA years and a bunch of the others have to become really solid players i.e Menzel, Cripps etc.
That is where the improvement has to come from, relying on players like Walker etc to have a year like he did a couple years ago helps but in my opinion won't take us where we need to go.
Funnily enough I walked right past MM on Collins St the other day. Pass is making finals so top 8 and that would be a good result I reckon.
Not that I am happy with that or we are only that good but to get any higher than 7-8 would mean that we have hardly any serious injuries, Gibbs, Murph, Hendo, Yarran pretty much have to have AA years and a bunch of the others have to become really solid players i.e Menzel, Cripps etc.
That is where the improvement has to come from, relying on players like Walker etc to have a year like he did a couple years ago helps but in my opinion won't take us where we need to go.
Did you give him a mark as you passed? ;)
Win a final.
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
It's been done before.
It's not impossible. ;)
Never said it was impossible, just wondering what kind of logic was applied when coming to that conclusion.
Based on follow up responses it appears, very little.
People fall into the Mick was hired to win us a premiership way of thinking. They ignore the fact that we were not quite as good as we thought we were, so have hit a little speed hump in the meantime.
Would people prefer that we chased played like Cooney and tried to make a run at the flag and most likely fail.
OR
Would people prefer that we take stock, evaluate our list and make some tough calls to set us up for a better chance at a flag in the next few years.
Personally, i prefer to think the latter.
IMO Mick was hired to get the club into a position to win a flag. Not necessarily in his first 3 years as coach, but set us up for long term success.
You can't buy flags anymore. It takes hard work and everyone pulling in the right direction from el presidente down to the boot studder. Mick is steering the ship the way we need to go and it may take longer than they think, but we've got a better chance of getting there then with someone like Ratten IMO.
Anything less than a top four finish would be a fail.
What makes you think this is possible given we just finished 13th?
It's been done before.
It's not impossible. ;)
Never said it was impossible, just wondering what kind of logic was applied when coming to that conclusion.
Based on follow up responses it appears, very little.
The fact is Kruds that an opinion was offered.
You initial response was dismissive.
So was this one.
If I've learned anything from nearly 50 years of following this game its that you can 'guess' till your blue in the face but most of the time your prediction of a finishing position will be wrong.
We have no idea how injuries will impact on our season.
We have no idea how our older players will come up....and most importantly of all, we have absolutely no idea how our younger players will improve and how our recruits will fit into the side
In reality it has little to do with opinions of Malthouse..... but he's a key element.
If he can get a dramatic improvement out of several younger players,
If our older players can hold their form,
and
If we have a bit of luck with injuries and return from injuries then we're well on the way.
Yep...a lot of "ifs" but none of them totally unrealistic
Is that logical enough?
I agree with what you've said Lods, i said similar. It is dependent on how a lot of things go...including opposition.
My response was dismissive, because he said he didn't think it was possible and it is just a swipe at Malthouse because he was hired to win us a flag. He wont make top 4, so he's failed, thus we fire him.
My post was to point out that whichever way you look at his hiring, the goal posts have changed. Thinking otherwise is naive.
As i said in my post, we could go relatively deep in finals if the stars align for us. But by the other side of the coin, if we get another 'bad luck' season, we'll struggle to get higher than 13th.
Much of this proves to me the evenness of the competition. A little bit of luck either way, good or bad can be the difference between top 4 and 13th !!
A couple of close wins or a Key player going down with injury in the 1st qtr of a game can be enough to completely change the fortune of a whole season.
Much of this proves to me the evenness of the competition. A little bit of luck either way, good or bad can be the difference between top 4 and 13th !!
We're actually closer to a flag now at 13the than we were when we finished 5th :))
Much of this proves to me the evenness of the competition. A little bit of luck either way, good or bad can be the difference between top 4 and 13th !!
We're actually closer to a flag now at 13the than we were when we finished 5th :))
On paper and in theory you would consider this to be the case. Wait to see what else we get in the draft.
I wonder what KPIs have been set for 2015 :-\
I'd be interested to see what the club sees as meaningful indicators and what is acceptable level of performance.
If it was up to me, I would have one KPI; percentage greater than 100. So, I guess that is my considered pass mark.
Much of this proves to me the evenness of the competition. A little bit of luck either way, good or bad can be the difference between top 4 and 13th !!
We're actually closer to a flag now at 13the than we were when we finished 5th :))
OMG that is gold! :))
I wonder what KPIs have been set for 2015 :-\
I'd be interested to see what the club sees as meaningful indicators and what is acceptable level of performance.
If it was up to me, I would have one KPI; percentage greater than 100. So, I guess that is my considered pass mark.
At least with Ratts he was transparent and set the benchmark for the side every year. How about Mick let us know what we're aiming for as well?
6-8 is being generous, i think we'll finish in between 8-12th
Not quite focused on ladder position for the moment.
For me, a pass would be :
- stringing together 4,5, maybe in my wildest dreams even six wins on the trot.
- knocking over two of the sides that will likely finish top 4 - Swans, Hawks Frockers etc.
- 4 quarters of sustained effort, week in, week out
- consolidation of form of players like White, Rowe, Gibbs - no sliding backwards please.
That'll do for now.
Not quite focused on ladder position for the moment.
For me, a pass would be :
- stringing together 4,5, maybe in my wildest dreams even six wins on the trot.
- knocking over two of the sides that will likely finish top 4 - Swans, Hawks Frockers etc.
- 4 quarters of sustained effort, week in, week out
- consolidation of form of players like White, Rowe, Gibbs - no sliding backwards please.
That'll do for now.
That's a top 4 side ;)
Not quite focused on ladder position for the moment.
For me, a pass would be :
- stringing together 4,5, maybe in my wildest dreams even six wins on the trot.
- knocking over two of the sides that will likely finish top 4 - Swans, Hawks Frockers etc.
- 4 quarters of sustained effort, week in, week out
- consolidation of form of players like White, Rowe, Gibbs - no sliding backwards please.
That'll do for now.
That's a top 4 side ;)
Is it ?
How many sides beat half the top 4, win 5/6 games in a row and play 4 quarters each week that don't finish in the top 4?
(I think Richmond last year came close but you wouldn't say they came to play each week, they didn't even turn up for the first half of the year)
How many sides beat half the top 4, win 5/6 games in a row and play 4 quarters each week that don't finish in the top 4?
None of them. Achieve the above and we would be happy as a pig in crap. ;)
In recent years, we've played some ok footy in a fairly inconsistent manner, made finals, even managed to win a final, managed to beat most sides below us, a few on par with us, and hardly any above. This has been a consistent pattern for a while. I'm not suggesting we're the only ones with this pattern, but it does really give me the sh*1s that it's been going on for so long. In a word, stagnation.
I would love to see us achieve things we haven't in ages, hence the references to successive wins and the occasional victory over a top side.
I don't know why, but the idea of us limping into the finals, with the same patchy win loss record, the same early exit etc., doesn't do it for me this time around. No doubt many will disagree.
In recent years, we've played some ok footy in a fairly inconsistent manner, made finals, even managed to win a final, managed to beat most sides below us, a few on par with us, and hardly any above. This has been a consistent pattern for a while. I'm not suggesting we're the only ones with this pattern, but it does really give me the sh*1s that it's been going on for so long. In a word, stagnation.
I would love to see us achieve things we haven't in ages, hence the references to successive wins and the occasional victory over a top side.
I don't know why, but the idea of us limping into the finals, with the same patchy win loss record, the same early exit etc., doesn't do it for me this time around. No doubt many will disagree.
I agree. if we go down the track of incremental improvement - limp in 8, get to 6, then top 4 then a Preliminary etc - it will do my head in...but more importantly, will not take us to a Premiership
I want to see a en entirely new playing list that plays very aggressive footy that takes no prisoners.
I want an entirely new spine
I would not be concerned if we dont make top 8 this year.. I expect improvements in about 2 years.
Finals.
Flag
Top 14
Top 18 :D
Top 18 :D
Let's not get ahead of ourselves!
Top 18 :D
Let's not get ahead of ourselves!
Set the bar low and everyone's happy :D
Beat Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney
Beat Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney
Lose to Melbourne!
Beat Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney
Lose to Melbourne!
This will sound bizzare but if we beat those 3 and lost to Melb, I would take that. Having said that, if we beat Syd, Haw and Geel in 2015, I will bet both my family jewels we wont be losing to Melb.
Take care with what you gamble with GIC. The season we won our last flag, I think we lost to the bottom 2 teams. I can't remember if it was Sydney and St Kilda at the time. Losing to Melbourne and Bulldogs is just too hard to stomach.
Take care with what you gamble with GIC. The season we won our last flag, I think we lost to the bottom 2 teams. I can't remember if it was Sydney and St Kilda at the time. Losing to Melbourne and Bulldogs is just too hard to stomach.
it was Sydney and st Kilda
and they were dubious losses
Mick agrees.....Top 8 ;)
Malthouse said he expected his team to play finals, as he always did. "I believe that my side is capable of winning enough games to put the pressure on to make the eight and then try to do some serious damage."
Plausible Deniability "put the pressure on to make the eight" ;)
There's no way we'll play finals, Malthouse is taking the piss or trying to pump up our memberships.
About 12th, but 14th or 15th wouldn't surprise me if we get a few injuries.
I'll be rocking up again, I haven't got anything better to do.
There's no way we'll play finals, Malthouse is taking the piss or trying to pump up our memberships.
About 12th, but 14th or 15th wouldn't surprise me if we get a few injuries.
I'll be rocking up again, I haven't got anything better to do.
12th, 14th or 15th will do wonders for the 2016 membership campaign.
We can't afford that type of finish.
We're already hemorrhaging members.
12th, 14th or 15th will do wonders for the 2016 membership campaign.
We can't afford that type of finish.
We're already hemorrhaging members.
Ask yourself where the improvement will come from Lods.
Waite is a gun on his day and Robbo was an automatic selection, apart from a fit Kreuzer I can't see us being better than this year anywhere else.
Simmo, Carratts and Juddy all the wrong side of 30, no key forwards, plodding key backs and only one decent ruckman, if he stays fit.
Even if our draft picks all gel, which would be a first, they'll take a few seasons.
I've still got the irrational Carlton optimism but I think it belongs to a time long ago, in my more lucid moments I think I've seen my last Carlton flag.
12th, 14th or 15th will do wonders for the 2016 membership campaign.
We can't afford that type of finish.
We're already hemorrhaging members.
Ask yourself where the improvement will come from Lods.
Waite is a gun on his day and Robbo was an automatic selection, apart from a fit Kreuzer I can't see us being better than this year anywhere else.
Simmo, Carratts and Juddy all the wrong side of 30, no key forwards, plodding key backs and only one decent ruckman, if he stays fit.
Even if our draft picks all gel, which would be a first, they'll take a few seasons.
I've still got the irrational Carlton optimism but I think it belongs to a time long ago, in my more lucid moments I think I've seen my last Carlton flag.
I'm not saying you're wrong B4L
Just that if you're right..... it will be a disaster.
Waite at his best was a gun....but it was all too infrequent.
At best he kept a key a key defender on his toes.
Robbo had little impact on our season last year and only played in three of our winning games.
Where will the improvement come from?.....players like Menzel, Cripps, Buckley and maybe Bell and Graham with another year under their belts should make a significant contribution.
Everitt, Thomas and Docherty should now have established a bit of rapport with the side. They'll feel less like the "new boys" now and better understand the abilities and strengths of their team-mates.
Thomas is the wild card and a fit Daisy would give us a big boost.
We've loaded up with forwards which should compensate for Waite....but the key there is Henderson who had a poor preparation last year and struggled for a large part of the year.
That pre-season debacle didn't just affect Henderson though... and it reflected in our play as we struggled early and then improved through the year
Probably the big concern remains the ruck...and I suspect one (or more) of Kreuzer, Warnock and Wood wont be with us this time next year.
Yep it needs a lot to go right.....but just with the natural improvement of the young players surely we can go better than 13th.
I think Lods hit all the key points there, but i think he undersold one of them.
Less off-season injuries this year compared to last year.
Don't underestimate the importance of a full pre-season. Last year we had too many players that suffered and the team suffered. Fix that alone and we are an improved side.
The older players were not a huge factor in 2014 as many of them were injured/underdone for large periods. So anything we get out of them is a bonus in 2015.
Younger players always improve as a whole, although individual amounts can vary, there will be at least 1 step up ala Menzel, Buckley last year.
Malcolm Blight was quoted in an article recently suggesting there is no such thing as a premiership window. He cited a year at the crows were they finished 12th. He said that traditionally their window would not have been open at the time, however they won the flag next year? That puts a brick right through the premiership window! Where did the improvement come from?? How did they go from 12th to premiers?
You obviously need a bit of luck to win a flag at the best of times and that was true for that flag win as well. However, perhaps they weren't as bad as 12th and perhaps they were better able to get their best side on the park. Makes a huge difference.
Perhaps we are not as bad as 13th? We did push the Hawks, were very unlucky against the catters, twice...
We did win a final the year before we finished 13th...
I'm not saying you're wrong B4L
Just that if you're right..... it will be a disaster.
Waite at his best was a gun....but it was all too infrequent.
His career stats are impressive and don't suggest that he was inconsistent.
I think it's that his best games were pearlers and we wanted him to produce it every week, he didn't play many bad ones.
Robbo had little impact on our season last year and only played in three of our winning games.
Still an automatic selection, averaged 20 touches and 4 tackles.
Where will the improvement come from?.....players like Menzel, Cripps, Buckley and maybe Bell and Graham with another year under their belts should make a significant contribution.
Menzel could be a gunna player, he looks great but slips out of games for long periods, maybe it will come with experience because Yarran was similar when he started.
Cripps hasn't shown much at all, Buckley is made of bubble gum, Bell has flair but lacks skill, Graham is very ordinary if you ask me.
Probably the big concern remains the ruck...and I suspect one (or more) of Kreuzer, Warnock and Wood wont be with us this time next year.
Yep it needs a lot to go right.....but just with the natural improvement of the young players surely we can go better than 13th.
I doubt it, our spine is just too weak.
Buckley is made of bubble gum
???
In the words of Pauline Hanson.
Please explain. :D
I reckon he plays well above his weight.
Maybe I've taken an optimistic view of some players but yours seems a little too pessimistic.
Buckley is made of bubble gum
???
In the words of Pauline Hanson.
Please explain. :D
I reckon he plays well above his weight.
Maybe I've taken an optimistic view of some players but yours seems a little too pessimistic.
I meant that he seems to get injured easily.
It's not hard to become a bit pessimistic after our last decade or more Lods, as of this year we've been back in the draft for ten.
I know we were coming off a low base but ten years is a bloody long time and there still isn't much to get excited about.
I hate to say it but we could catching the Richmond disease, we've got all the symptoms.
Finals are out of the question IMO.
Judd and MM will not see out 2015.
Carlton will finish 16-18th.
It's all joy in Roy World... Come on mate... Cheer up ffs :)
It's all joy in Roy World... Come on mate... Cheer up ffs :)
And what date will the sky actually fall in?? :))
Pass mark = Premiership
Pass mark = Premiership
So 2015 will be a fail then.
Pass mark = Premiership
So 2015 will be a fail then.
So you are assuming we wont win it as at 11 January 2015. If we will the flag however its not a fail. Right this very minute, everyone has zero wins, zero losses and zero draws. IMO we are all even despite what the bookies say.
Why do players put themselves through rigorous pre seasons?
Why do the coaches plan and prepare with an almost fanatical attitude?
Why do the recruiters look for that hidden gem or that trade that will fill another piece in the jig saw puzzle?
Why do the boards try and appoint the best staff possible?
The answer to all the above is to win a flag.
If we don't win the flag in 2015, 2016, 2017 etc, yes its a fail, it always is. To me, this question has only one answer, if you ACCEPT anything less, you will never improve enough to achieve the ultimate goal. The sooner this mindset is adopted, the sooner 17 will be in the cabinet in the foyer at PP. If you don't have this mindset, you are conceding before you even start, then you may as well go and play tiddlywinks. When MM came along, he said "there should be no limits". I think the group was too immature to understand exactly what he meant at the time. I think they are starting to get it though.
I understand your thinking and can't argue with you. I do however think we will fail to win a flag in 2015. Probably get close in 2016 and 2017 might just be the year it happens. Lets hope I am too pessimistic in trying to be a realist. ;)
Pass mark = Premiership
So 2015 will be a fail then.
So you are assuming we wont win it as at 11 January 2015. If we will the flag however its not a fail. Right this very minute, everyone has zero wins, zero losses and zero draws. IMO we are all even despite what the bookies say.
Why do players put themselves through rigorous pre seasons?
Why do the coaches plan and prepare with an almost fanatical attitude?
Why do the recruiters look for that hidden gem or that trade that will fill another piece in the jig saw puzzle?
Why do the boards try and appoint the best staff possible?
The answer to all the above is to win a flag.
If we don't win the flag in 2015, 2016, 2017 etc, yes its a fail, it always is. To me, this question has only one answer, if you ACCEPT anything less, you will never improve enough to achieve the ultimate goal. The sooner this mindset is adopted, the sooner 17 will be in the cabinet in the foyer at PP. If you don't have this mindset, you are conceding before you even start, then you may as well go and play tiddlywinks. When MM came along, he said "there should be no limits". I think the group was too immature to understand exactly what he meant at the time. I think they are starting to get it though.
Hawks were giving away good players for draft picks in the early 00s. They had to think they weren't going to be going well short term as well as accept it. They go okay now.
The club is talking the list up and I've already set my expectations at a Flag, so there is only one way to go.
Undefeated Flag! ;)
The club is talking the list up and I've already set my expectations at a Flag, so there is only one way to go.
Undefeated Flag! ;)
I have lowered my expectations a little bit from you LP,
I want a repeat of '95, I'm happy with a couple of losses ;)
I understand your thinking and can't argue with you. I do however think we will fail to win a flag in 2015. Probably get close in 2016 and 2017 might just be the year it happens. Lets hope I am too pessimistic in trying to be a realist. ;)
We don't have enough top class players to win a flag, it's really that simple.
You can go a long way getting the maximum out of your B Graders but unless you've got a core of four or five genuine A Graders you're pissing into the wind, and we don't have them.
I understand your thinking and can't argue with you. I do however think we will fail to win a flag in 2015. Probably get close in 2016 and 2017 might just be the year it happens. Lets hope I am too pessimistic in trying to be a realist. ;)
We don't have enough top class players to win a flag, it's really that simple.
You can go a long way getting the maximum out of your B Graders but unless you've got a core of four or five genuine A Graders you're pissing into the wind, and we don't have them.
Probably right, so here is my list of possible A-graders in the next 2-3 years;
Gibbs, Murphy, Thomas, Yarran,
That's 4 only and no Key Position players with Henderson the only likely candidate if he can become more consistent and Matthew Kruezer if he stays fit.
You look at the next generation and Menzel is the most likely, and perhaps Cripps who has shown a bit. While I love Buckley I'm not sure he will become an A-grader. After that it's a lottery.
@Blueforlife
Your point is valid. I know it wasn't finals but when the Tiggers strung 9 in a row last year to make finals, did they give a fork about who the opposition was? Did they have enough A graders? Just saying that if you have the right attitude, you can achieve stuff you wouldn't otherwise.
Port Adelaide is a good example of that. They have quite a few good players but not many 'A' graders.
Their coach has them all on the same page. Be interesting to see if he can keep them there ::) ::)
Port Adelaide is a good example of that. They have quite a few good players but not many 'A' graders.
Their coach has them all on the same page. Be interesting to see if he can keep them there ::) ::)
What he said ;)
Port Adelaide is a good example of that. They have quite a few good players but not many 'A' graders.
Their coach has them all on the same page. Be interesting to see if he can keep them there ::) ::)
There are a few players in the Port Adelaide side I would snap up in a heart beat. They are a well balanced group all with the same playing attitude. A few of their players would be regarded as "A" grade added to our list. Be very interesting to see how they manage to hold on to all of them over the next few years for certain.
I reckon the number of A graders in your team changes the higher up the ladder you finish.
Thomas was A grade but not anymore...struggles to kick 40m and has lost pace IMO...
Thomas was A grade but not anymore...struggles to kick 40m and has lost pace IMO...
Judd was great but it's going to be a year to year proposition. Murphy was doing much more blue collar stuff than tearing sides apart. Would love to see him kicking 30 goals again as well as his defensive work.
Others need to stand up (as always)
Murphy was doing much more blue collar stuff than tearing sides apart. Would love to see him kicking 30 goals again as well as his defensive work.
This^^.
I know I've been his biggest critic but I've also always said he has the ability to be as effective as Gary Ablett if he does all the tough stuff as well, such is his skill with ball in hand. Really turned the corner last year, but possibly to the detriment of his attacking play a little. If he can find the right balance lookout.
I reckon the number of A graders in your team changes the higher up the ladder you finish.
Pretty much, rarely do defenders in bottom teams get rated because of the results.
Big test for Murphy and Gibbs when Judd retires and they dont have the big body in the packs to help them out and take the best taggers each week...Malthouse needs to blood Cripps this season to take over from Judd and use Judd to mentor him......Judd has mentored Bell in the hope he could take the mantle but the latter isnt up to playing consistent football every game and remains a spasmodic commodity that hasnt taken the next step.....
Big test for Murphy and Gibbs when Judd retires and they dont have the big body in the packs to help them out and take the best taggers each week...Malthouse needs to blood Cripps this season to take over from Judd and use Judd to mentor him......Judd has mentored Bell in the hope he could take the mantle but the latter isnt up to playing consistent football every game and remains a spasmodic commodity that hasnt taken the next step.....
Perfect summation. ;)
@Blueforlife
Your point is valid. I know it wasn't finals but when the Tiggers strung 9 in a row last year to make finals, did they give a fork about who the opposition was? Did they have enough A graders? Just saying that if you have the right attitude, you can achieve stuff you wouldn't otherwise.
I agree, but the Tigers won't be winning a flag any time soon.
I think Malthouse will get the best out of us and I think we saw a bit of that last year even though our results weren't flash, but we'll pull up short no matter how well we gel as a team because we lack class.
Jamison is our best defender but he wouldn't hold a candle to Matthew Scarlett, Carrazzo is our grunt player but he's well behind Sam Mitchell, with Betts gone we have no mobile forward with flair who kicks goals like Steve Johnson or Rioli, and we have no high class tall forwards at all.
Even with a full list and all firing the only way we'll beat Hawthorn is if they have a spate of injuries or kick a bucket load of points.
@Blueforlife
Your point is valid. I know it wasn't finals but when the Tiggers strung 9 in a row last year to make finals, did they give a fork about who the opposition was? Did they have enough A graders? Just saying that if you have the right attitude, you can achieve stuff you wouldn't otherwise.
I agree, but the Tigers won't be winning a flag any time soon.
I think Malthouse will get the best out of us and I think we saw a bit of that last year even though our results weren't flash, but we'll pull up short no matter how well we gel as a team because we lack class.
Jamison is our best defender but he wouldn't hold a candle to Matthew Scarlett, Carrazzo is our grunt player but he's well behind Sam Mitchell, with Betts gone we have no mobile forward with flair who kicks goals like Steve Johnson or Rioli, and we have no high class tall forwards at all.
Even with a full list and all firing the only way we'll beat Hawthorn is if they have a spate of injuries or kick a bucket load of points.
A grade players come into their own when the stakes are high, e.g. finals. A team may get to the finals via dedication, heroics and bravery but if it lacks the required level of A grade players it will eventually get found out.
A grade players come into their own when the stakes are high, e.g. finals. A team may get to the finals via dedication, heroics and bravery but if it lacks the required level of A grade players it will eventually get found out.
My feelings exactly cookie.
Sydney wasn't a side loaded with talent but they knit together well and are very disciplined and well coached, but when it came down to it they had their pants pulled down, like Port did against Geelong a while back.
To have a better record than Ratten... :P :P :P
Malthouse was hired to win a Premiership... no doubts. He and the club has changed the goalposts these last 18 months, ever so subtlety.
This is no HIS team. This is a rebuilding and growing year, Top 8 would be a bonus. win 10 games should be the mark. If they improve and show signs of growth, Malthouse will get another contract... if the stagnate (and the last 2 years they have gone backwards), then a fresh new coach will have a chance to build with this group.
@Blueforlife
Your point is valid. I know it wasn't finals but when the Tiggers strung 9 in a row last year to make finals, did they give a fork about who the opposition was? Did they have enough A graders? Just saying that if you have the right attitude, you can achieve stuff you wouldn't otherwise.
I agree, but the Tigers won't be winning a flag any time soon.
I think Malthouse will get the best out of us and I think we saw a bit of that last year even though our results weren't flash, but we'll pull up short no matter how well we gel as a team because we lack class.
Jamison is our best defender but he wouldn't hold a candle to Matthew Scarlett, Carrazzo is our grunt player but he's well behind Sam Mitchell, with Betts gone we have no mobile forward with flair who kicks goals like Steve Johnson or Rioli, and we have no high class tall forwards at all.
Even with a full list and all firing the only way we'll beat Hawthorn is if they have a spate of injuries or kick a bucket load of points.
A grade players come into their own when the stakes are high, e.g. finals. A team may get to the finals via dedication, heroics and bravery but if it lacks the required level of A grade players it will eventually get found out.
Fair point Cookie....Brian Lake wasnt A grade at the Bulldogs and looked washed up..next thing you know he is a Norm Smith Medallist, Premiership player and that make him an A grader when it counted...
I don't know EB, Lake certainly looked like an A grader when we played the Scraggers. Remember the game where he played on Setanta and took about a thousand marks?
His form was down and he was playing injured at the end of his time with Footscray but I think his best with them was better than his best with the Hawks.
Cookie's point is certainly valid though; good players are even better when they are in strong teams. That was the point I was trying to make, but in reverse, when I said that Lewis wouldn't be as good if he was playing for us.
I think we thought when he went to the Hawks he was struggling a bit and wasn't the player he used to be.
There's no doubt that at his best at the Bulldogs he was an A grader
I think we thought when he went to the Hawks he was struggling a bit and wasn't the player he used to be.
There's no doubt that at his best at the Bulldogs he was an A grader
I agree. He was on a downward spiral at the dogs, and his best was far behind him. Once he moved to the Hawks he had the support of Gibson, Birchall, Hodge and others to make him look good because he wasn't a one man show in the back 50m. He looked far better, but I think his best was at a younger age at the Dogs.
Playing against us made him look elite because we basically kicked it over our target forwards and straight into his hands. How many uncontested marks did he take in his best games against us ? Way too many, because we just didn't have the skills to hit targets. Its easy to make players look better than they really are, when they don't have to defend. Mind you he is a good defender. Without a doubt an "A" grader, but poor delivery has made him look better than he really is. Scarlett and Silvagni along with Fletcher have been way better defenders in their best days, and they have had far more years of being elite than Lake ever will. IMO. ;)
Lets face it, we were absolute crap for much of last year.
There is no reason we should not sneak into the 8, but I will settle on big performances against big teams.
North Melb are crap, there is no way on earth they should finish ahead of us.
Lets face it, we were absolute crap for much of last year.
There is no reason we should not sneak into the 8, but I will settle on big performances against big teams.
North Melb are crap, there is no way on earth they should finish ahead of us.
That's just it though. We ended up in the bottom half of the ladder so we play all the bottom teams twice as opposed to last year playing all the top 8 teams twice. We have a huge opportunity.
BTW I totally disagree about North.
BTW I totally disagree about North.
When you draft a player like Waite who is on the wrong side of 30 and injury prone, and you are pinning your hopes on him taking you to the next step, I dont think they are headed in the right direction either TBH. Coupled with an aging Harvey, Petrie (slightly older than Waite), not good I reckon. They have the 2nd oldest list in the comp behind Freo just.
I'm talking about this year not the future.
I'm talking about this year not the future.
I'd have Waite in our team any day of the week, as would our coach if his reaction to him leaving is anything to go by. Anyone who says different is kidding themselves.
I'm talking about this year not the future.
I'd have Waite in our team any day of the week, as would our coach if his reaction to him leaving is anything to go by. Anyone who says different is kidding themselves.
Yes, North have added our best forward to their list and that should improve their chances in 2015. Not necessarily beyond that, but they'll definitely be stronger with Waite in their forward line.
We've replaced Waite with a bloke who couldn't quite do the job for Footscray. Unless Jones can play at his best consistently, and we see more improvement from Casboult and Henderson (or Watson), we'll struggle to kick a winning score.
We have to hope Jones is peaking when we are in a position to challenge..Waite would not have been in our next premiership team but hopefully Jones will be...
We have to hope Jones is peaking when we are in a position to challenge..Waite would not have been in our next premiership team but hopefully Jones will be...
I don't think Jones will ever be a star but hopefully if he's not a total potato, the others around him can get the job done for us.
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.
On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.
Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".
Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.
We have to hope Jones is peaking when we are in a position to challenge..Waite would not have been in our next premiership team but hopefully Jones will be...
I don't think Jones will ever be a star but hopefully if he's not a total potato, the others around him can get the job done for us.
God, I hope we don't end up with Meat, Potato plus two Veg in the forward line! Arrrrrgh!
Only joking. 8)
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.
On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.
Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".
Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.
As is his time at CHB; probably where he played his best footy. Waite's three goals in the first half when he was playing CHB on Richo is one of my favourite memories of him.
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.
On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.
Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".
Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.
As is his time at CHB; probably where he played his best footy. Waite's three goals in the first half when he was playing CHB on Richo is one of my favourite memories of him.
Funnily enough I'm not "bitter" at him leaving.
He'll always be a Carlton player to me....but I'm just a bit sad about 'what might have been' if he'd had an injury free run and been a bit less "careless' at times.
Funnily enough I'm not "bitter" at him leaving.
He'll always be a Carlton player to me....but I'm just a bit sad about 'what might have been' if he'd had an injury free run and been a bit less "careless' at times.
I think you've summarized the sentiment of the vast majority of Carlton supporters right there.
Funnily enough I'm not "bitter" at him leaving.
He'll always be a Carlton player to me....but I'm just a bit sad about 'what might have been' if he'd had an injury free run and been a bit less "careless' at times.
I think you've summarized the sentiment of the vast majority of Carlton supporters right there.
Ditto
Aint no bitterness here either. I don't see how any Carlton person could be bitter with him TBH. Has bled blue long enough.
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.
On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.
Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".
Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.
Kicked 42 of his 68 goals at the Docklands has Jones but struggles anywhere else.....max bag he has kicked in a game is 4 goals......doesnt have the X factor of Waite and with an average of only 4 marks a game will need to improve his stats to become the power forward we need....
Averages one goal a game and lets hope Mick can improve him as a player because based on his stats its hard to see him improving his output to the level we need to be a top team..
@ Elwood,
Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.
@ Elwood,
Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.
EB will no doubt add his insights but it seems to me that Jones's marking strength is limited to when he gets a clear run and can take off well before the ball arrives. He is probably the direct opposite of Waite and it would probably be true to say that his strengths don't overlap with those of Henderson and Casboult.
@ Elwood,
Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.
Mants....Fair point on delivery and amount of supply and that no doubt will be the argument from Mick and the recruiters that Jones didnt get the service at the Bulldogs to
fulfil his potential.
Delivery hasnt been our strong point either and I dont think we rate very highly in corridor work in terms of being effective with entry into the forward 50....
Jones is more of a leadup player who can also take the big speccy over the back of the pack but I wouldnt call him a pack marking player like Casboult is.
I think the idea will be to play him as the third tall target and try and get our main bag of goals from Henderson and a couple each from Casboult and Jones...
Jones best games have been vs the Tigers so i reckon you can lock him for rnd1
Fisher was a third forward in the past, so surely Jones will offer more than he was able to. We need to stretch a defensive outfit, and only one key forward is not enough in this modern game. Levi and Henderson will be good up forward and you would think Jones and Everitt could be the third forwards we will use in most of our games. Watson is still a question if he gets used.
@ Elwood,
Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.
Mants....Fair point on delivery and amount of supply and that no doubt will be the argument from Mick and the recruiters that Jones didnt get the service at the Bulldogs to
fulfil his potential.
Unfortunately we are even more indirect than the Doggies.
^^
I dont know if being direct necessary means hitting leading targets though.
I would have thought that would be the result of slower movement of the ball and waiting for the right lead.
Still, we will have to see how it pans out. We have an interesting dynamic in our forwardline, and of the recognised "key forwards" they all seem to offer something different.
Watson seems to be your older style full forward who is strong in the contest.
Jones is a third tall in a key position players body (Given Waite's age, I think we have ended up with a bit of a win here as I dont expect Jones to be as good as Waite, but he will play Waite's role for about 8 years longer that Waite would have continued to).
Henderson is as much a hard working CHF that will get up the ground a lot.
Casboult is the sort of bloke that will smash a pack and pinch hit in the ruck.
I dont think we can play all of them at once, but it means we have varying dynamics at play. FWIW, direct play would probably suit Casboult the most as it relies less on good service, and more on the forward doing something with the ball which seems to be our lowest percentage attack as he wont win contests all day, and he doesnt finish well enough even if he does win them.
I dont think we can play all of them at once, but it means we have varying dynamics at play. FWIW, direct play would probably suit Casboult the most as it relies less on good service, and more on the forward doing something with the ball which seems to be our lowest percentage attack as he wont win contests all day, and he doesnt finish well enough even if he does win them.
How is it low percentage football? Direct play results in forwards getting one on one with their opponents and as the ball usually moves through the middle, there's a wider range of options available.
Will direct mean that we hit targets?
The highest percentage score will probably come from an uncontested mark inside 50 (lead or not).
That might mean getting players to provide seperation, blocks, and decoy targets. Direct play wont help that.
Direct play is suited to a team that has Good targets inside 50 at all times. Last I checked, our forwards are reasonable, but none of them are coleman medalists. There is no right answer here, you might go more direct vs some teams and not others, or if you were chasing a game.
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.
On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.
Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".
Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.
Kicked 42 of his 68 goals at the Docklands has Jones but struggles anywhere else.....max bag he has kicked in a game is 4 goals......doesnt have the X factor of Waite and with an average of only 4 marks a game will need to improve his stats to become the power forward we need....
Averages one goal a game and lets hope Mick can improve him as a player because based on his stats its hard to see him improving his output to the level we need to be a top team..
The first time Liam Jones kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 50 days old. He kicked 4.
The first time Jarrad Waite kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 65 days old. He kicked 3.
People forget how old Jones is, and forget how much future he has in front of him.
It is certainly not beyond Jones to 'outdo' Waite come the end of his career. He may not have the athletic freakishness that Waite possesses, but i reckon he's probably got a bit more consistency ahead of him.
Of course, Waite didn't play as a key forward at the start of his career and it may be more meaningful to compare their careers after they'd spent the same number of years in the system.
After seven years, Jones has played 66 games, taken 269 marks, had 612 disposals and kicked 68 goals. At the same stage of his career, Waite had played 106 games, taken 532 marks, had 1461 disposals and kicked 107 goals. Both didn't crack it for a game in their first season.
Wishful thinking is all well and good, particularly at this time of the year, but Jones has a lot of improvement ahead of him if he is to cement a place in our side, let alone come close to Waite's contribution.
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.
On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.
Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".
Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.
Kicked 42 of his 68 goals at the Docklands has Jones but struggles anywhere else.....max bag he has kicked in a game is 4 goals......doesnt have the X factor of Waite and with an average of only 4 marks a game will need to improve his stats to become the power forward we need....
Averages one goal a game and lets hope Mick can improve him as a player because based on his stats its hard to see him improving his output to the level we need to be a top team..
The first time Liam Jones kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 50 days old. He kicked 4.
The first time Jarrad Waite kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 65 days old. He kicked 3.
People forget how old Jones is, and forget how much future he has in front of him.
It is certainly not beyond Jones to 'outdo' Waite come the end of his career. He may not have the athletic freakishness that Waite possesses, but i reckon he's probably got a bit more consistency ahead of him.
Maybe a fitter Jones with some belief that he is valued will improve....
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/carlton-recruit-liam-jones-take-extra-step-before-new-journey-20141018-1180sp.html
If Jones is doing everything he can to be the best prepared footy player he ever was, he is doing the best he can for the club. We can't ask for anything more than that. I will take a player with an extremely high work ethic any day of the week. He is only 23 and still a kid at 198cm tall. Didn't realise he was that tall to be honest.
If we do better than the 2014 win/loss record of 7 wins and a draw we would of had a good season.
We could be in for a 4 win season
If we do better than the 2014 win/loss record of 7 wins and a draw we would of had a good season.
We could be in for a 4 win season
Mate whatever it is that your taking? I will have 1500 kg of it please.
We could be in for a 4 win season
[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/YBQvt-t6NcA[/flash]
North Melb are crap............................
North are better than us, so what does that make us?
North bat deeper in the midfield than we do, have a genuine marking forward who kicks goals along with a very dangerous small forward, a solid defence and a very good ruckman.
They finished fourth and it wasn't a fluke.
North Melb are crap............................
North are better than us, so what does that make us?
North bat deeper in the midfield than we do, have a genuine marking forward who kicks goals along with a very dangerous small forward, a solid defence and a very good ruckman.
They finished fourth and it wasn't a fluke.
North can do what we can only dream of doing. They take on the best sides in the competition and can more than match it with them. What they did to Hawthorn last year was amazing, the Hawks resorted to sniping and they did not take their eye off the ball and kicked 6 or 7 straight. They move the ball quickly and are very direct. They are entertaining to watch.
I just don't get how anyone that watches them play doesn't rate them. It's got nothing to do with how your list looks on paper and everything to do with the football you play.
I just don't get how anyone that watches them play doesn't rate them. It's got nothing to do with how your list looks on paper and everything to do with the football you play.
Here i am wondering why i've been chastised for saying the same thing. ;)
Yet we still managed to beat them last season.
Don't really care about North - we just need to make the 8 and win a final!
I haven't seen Champion Data's 2015 prospectus and I may be misinterpreting this summary:
While North Melbourne were a preliminary finalist last season, the Kangaroos were rated as having the eighth-best list in terms of quality. They even fell behind West Coast and Adelaide, who did not make the finals last season . . .
The Roos boast three elite players - Brent Harvey, Nick Dal Santo and Todd Goldstein - but have nine in the above-average category.
Carlton boasted two elite players - Kade Simpson and Chris Yarran - but Marc Murphy and Bryce Gibbs, the latter having claimed his maiden best and fairest last season, were deemed only above average.
If I am interpreting that correctly (and I have reservations about the Champion Data criteria and analysis) North have one more elite player than us, and seven more above-average players.
I would take Simpson, Yarran, Murphy and Gibbs ahead of Harvey and Dal Santo without hesitation and I wouldn't class Goldstein as an elite player. However, Champion Data's assessment that North has 12 players who are above average or better compared to our four players is cause for concern.
Some may choose to focus that concern on Champion Data's analysis, others may focus on our list management and player development. Even if Champion Data's analysis is flawed, it would be naïve to think that North's list is not as good as ours.
There's a better way of assessing a player and determining which ones are A graders than relying on Statistical analysis....DJC's hinted at it.
....it's called "watching them play" :D
There's a better way of assessing a player and determining which ones are A graders than relying on Statistical analysis....DJC's hinted at it.
....it's called "watching them play" :D
Basically the only way. Words and text mean nothing. Score on the field in real life lets you see the truth. ;)
There's a better way of assessing a player and determining which ones are A graders than relying on Statistical analysis....DJC's hinted at it.
....it's called "watching them play" :D
Exactly what I was trying to say. I think many on here who don't rate North simply don't watch them, look at their list and go 'yeah they're crap.' I too would've written off someone like Dal Santo but he was enormous last year. Brent Harvey is in playing just as well if not possibly better than he ever has. Put simply, North play to the strengths of their list, they have great runners and like to take the game on. They are very even across the field. That troubles most sides more often than not. The fact that they're lacking possibly one or two stars is probably the only thing holding them back from making the big dance.
Yet we still managed to beat them last season.
I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying we are good enough to beat them and therefore we are underachieving?
FTR that was a milestone 100th game for Yazz, Robbo and Hendo, and Waite tore them a new one (Waite plays for his mates).
Exactly what I was trying to say. I think many on here who don't rate North simply don't watch them, look at their list and go 'yeah they're crap.' I too would've written off someone like Dal Santo but he was enormous last year. Brent Harvey is in playing just as well if not possibly better than he ever has. Put simply, North play to the strengths of their list, they have great runners and like to take the game on. They are very even across the field. That troubles most sides more often than not. The fact that they're lacking possibly one or two stars is probably the only thing holding them back from making the big dance.
Wells, Ziebel and Swallow aren't exactly hacks either.
Now you can add Waite to the mix and they might even get something out of Higgins, and if it came down to a choice between Ben Brown and Levi Casboult I know who I'd pick.
No members, no money and bugger all prime time games, but they keep soldiering on.
North have a lot of people fooled, they also play the media like a piano. Apparently our blokes have a problem Fronting up with 100% effort all the time... North have the same problem but nobody mentions it. Their best player is 38, they drafted an injury prone forward and their other main avenue to goal was FLOGGED by Rowe. And they're better than us?
North have a lot of people fooled, they also play the media like a piano. Apparently our blokes have a problem Fronting up with 100% effort all the time... North have the same problem but nobody mentions it. Their best player is 38, they drafted an injury prone forward and their other main avenue to goal was FLOGGED by Rowe. And they're better than us?
Mate the media were all over North on quite a few occasions last year when they dropped games they should've won. They beat hawthorn and Sydney last year, Sydney was in Sydney. They then knocked off the scum and Cats in the finals. How could you possibly compare us to them? I think we should be doing better no doubt but results say they are light years ahead of us, regardless of who's on their list.
North have a lot of people fooled, they also play the media like a piano. Apparently our blokes have a problem Fronting up with 100% effort all the time... North have the same problem but nobody mentions it. Their best player is 38, they drafted an injury prone forward and their other main avenue to goal was FLOGGED by Rowe. And they're better than us?
Mate the media were all over North on quite a few occasions last year when they dropped games they should've won. They beat hawthorn and Sydney last year, Sydney was in Sydney. They then knocked off the scum and Cats in the finals. How could you possibly compare us to them? I think we should be doing better no doubt but results say they are light years ahead of us, regardless of who's on their list.
North play a very '11 Carlton style of game.
Inconsistent, and when their run gets shut down they are cactus.
Haha funny you know I was just about to compare their 2014 season to ours in 2011! :))
Exactly, and where did our 2011 season get us? They might be better than us but premiership material.... Yea, right, they are where we are - nowheresville, they just don't realise it yet.
Exactly, and where did our 2011 season get us? They might be better than us but premiership material.... Yea, right, they are where we are - nowheresville, they just don't realise it yet.
I said they were a couple of A-graders short of a Premiership but they had important players missing from last year's finals series ans still performed well.
Yet we still managed to beat them last season.
I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying we are good enough to beat them and therefore we are underachieving?
FTR that was a milestone 100th game for Yazz, Robbo and Hendo, and Waite tore them a new one (Waite plays for his mates).
I'm saying we beat them last season. We both have mental yips. Both of us are middle of the road teams who can beat or lose to anyone on any given day.
Yet we still managed to beat them last season.
I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying we are good enough to beat them and therefore we are underachieving?
FTR that was a milestone 100th game for Yazz, Robbo and Hendo, and Waite tore them a new one (Waite plays for his mates).
I'm saying we beat them last season. We both have mental yips. Both of us are middle of the road teams who can beat or lose to anyone on any given day.
No, they can beat Hawthorn and Sydney on any given day, we can't even get close. They also played in a prelim, we finished bottom six. Middle of the road sides don't play in prelims and consistently beat the grand finalists.
I'm going to put you in the assumption category, you haven't watched them enough and assume they are crap because they lack superstars on their list.
um, Carrots, didn't CFC all but people the Hawks?
And Sydney was a disaster thanks to one 'orrible 3rd qtr.
Put me in whatever category you like Carrots, I watched these guys and I must say that their good was bloody good, and their bad was absolutely WOEFUL.
Round 1 vs Essendon lost by 39 points.
Round 5 vs Collingwood lost by 35 points.
Round 7 vs Gold Coast lost by 43 points at Etihad.
Round 13 vs Adelaide lost 36 points
Round 15 vs Brisbane lost by 4 points
Round 18 vs Carlton lost by 23 points
They lost a few other matches as well but those were matches where they were four quarter efforts and were outdone by some poor umpiring and some inspiring play by their opposition (I almost left ours off but I seem to recall a few blokes from their team take some short steps particularly in the 4th quarter when the game was in the balance).
Most of the above were matches where they just were not switched on. They did this for at least a quarter (sometimes a half) in wins vs Richmond, Melbourne (the second time) and GWS too.
Good teams dont have wild mood swings during the season like they did last year. Their good is good, but their bad is downright appalling. Lets not forget that last year they had the benefit of a "soft draw" due to missing the finals in 2013 also.
A few of us are of the opinion that they will get found out this year. We might be wrong, they could very well sort out the inconsistency of EFFORT and do better, but I doubt it.
Thank you for eruditely setting out the point I was attempting to get across. The kangas have games were they don't front up mentally. Some of those losses were to average sides and they were comprehensive as well. Good sides don't lose like that is times in a single year.
Good teams dont have wild mood swings during the season like they did last year. Their good is good, but their bad is downright appalling. Lets not forget that last year they had the benefit of a "soft draw" due to missing the finals in 2013 also.
Middle of the road sides don't play in prelims or beat grand finalists consistently. They don't win two finals. Obviously they put in a few poor performances but that's stock standard for any side. Fact is you said they were middle of the road and compared them to us and that's just so wrong it's not funny. Bordering on delusion really.
Thank you for eruditely setting out the point I was attempting to get across. The kangas have games were they don't front up mentally. Some of those losses were to average sides and they were comprehensive as well. Good sides don't lose like that is times in a single year.
Mate they played in a Prelim, they beat the grand finalists during the year. I really don't see how you can dismiss them as not being a good side. You may dislike them and that's fine but don't let your bias get in the way of rational assessment.
Good teams dont have wild mood swings during the season like they did last year. Their good is good, but their bad is downright appalling. Lets not forget that last year they had the benefit of a "soft draw" due to missing the finals in 2013 also.
Middle of the road sides don't play in prelims or beat grand finalists consistently. They don't win two finals. Obviously they put in a few poor performances but that's stock standard for any side. Fact is you said they were middle of the road and compared them to us and that's just so wrong it's not funny. Bordering on delusion really.
Ill leave the delusions to others thanks. I just proved that I saw more of their footy than you thought I had.
Good teams dont have wild mood swings during the season like they did last year. Their good is good, but their bad is downright appalling. Lets not forget that last year they had the benefit of a "soft draw" due to missing the finals in 2013 also.
Middle of the road sides don't play in prelims or beat grand finalists consistently. They don't win two finals. Obviously they put in a few poor performances but that's stock standard for any side. Fact is you said they were middle of the road and compared them to us and that's just so wrong it's not funny. Bordering on delusion really.
Ill leave the delusions to others thanks. I just proved that I saw more of their footy than you thought I had.
WTF?? You proved nothing LMAO. You should start your own thread, 'the world according to Thry'. A weird and wonderful place full of football fantasy.
Good teams dont have wild mood swings during the season like they did last year. Their good is good, but their bad is downright appalling. Lets not forget that last year they had the benefit of a "soft draw" due to missing the finals in 2013 also.
Middle of the road sides don't play in prelims or beat grand finalists consistently. They don't win two finals. Obviously they put in a few poor performances but that's stock standard for any side. Fact is you said they were middle of the road and compared them to us and that's just so wrong it's not funny. Bordering on delusion really.
Ill leave the delusions to others thanks. I just proved that I saw more of their footy than you thought I had.
WTF?? You proved nothing LMAO. You should start your own thread, 'the world according to Thry'. A weird and wonderful place full of football fantasy.
Gotta agree with Carrots here Thry, how did you prove your point.
Mate they played in a Prelim, they beat the grand finalists during the year.
And they beat Freo and West Coast in Perth.
They aren't a looming Premiership team but they're comfortably ahead of us.
Yeah I agree, like I said, probably a few A graders short of a premiership and it's unlikely they'll get them in time. They are however a very even side.
I think that a large part of the Shinboners' inconsistency is due to the fact that their coach is still learning the caper. If he can lift his game, and Waite can stay on the park, they could be a top four side this season.
According to their coach, they have been very active in replenishing their list and believe that they will remain in contention for some time . . . and all done on the smell of an oily rag ::)
Good teams dont have wild mood swings during the season like they did last year. Their good is good, but their bad is downright appalling. Lets not forget that last year they had the benefit of a "soft draw" due to missing the finals in 2013 also.
Middle of the road sides don't play in prelims or beat grand finalists consistently. They don't win two finals. Obviously they put in a few poor performances but that's stock standard for any side. Fact is you said they were middle of the road and compared them to us and that's just so wrong it's not funny. Bordering on delusion really.
Ill leave the delusions to others thanks. I just proved that I saw more of their footy than you thought I had.
WTF?? You proved nothing LMAO. You should start your own thread, 'the world according to Thry'. A weird and wonderful place full of football fantasy.
Gotta agree with Carrots here Thry, how did you prove your point.
Carrots made an assumption that I hadnt seen enough of them and even formed a reasoning for my opinion and all I am doing is pointing to this point in bold.
Yet we still managed to beat them last season.
I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying we are good enough to beat them and therefore we are underachieving?
FTR that was a milestone 100th game for Yazz, Robbo and Hendo, and Waite tore them a new one (Waite plays for his mates).
I'm saying we beat them last season. We both have mental yips. Both of us are middle of the road teams who can beat or lose to anyone on any given day.
No, they can beat Hawthorn and Sydney on any given day, we can't even get close. They also played in a prelim, we finished bottom six. Middle of the road sides don't play in prelims and consistently beat the grand finalists.
I'm going to put you in the assumption category, you haven't watched them enough and assume they are crap because they lack superstars on their list.
There at least 5 sides they are not better than North. As far as Im concerned that MIGHT put them just in the top 6 or 7. In an 18 team comp, thats about middle of the road as far as Im concerned.
Now he can agree to disagree like a man, or he can attack people, call them delusional, and belittle them for their opinion.
Clearly, he chose the latter.
Even though he has no reasoning for why they are a premiership aspiring side beyond his general vibe or feeling.
Fk me you spk so much BS. I've already put my case forward and I've already said I don't think they can win the premiership. I've said they are well above a middle of the road side AS THEIR RECORD FROM LAST YEAR SHOWS, it is you that is working on general vibe or feeling rather than results. Can I ask you just how many games of theirs you watched last year? I backed them every week they played a good side, so I watched them play at their best quite a few times and am in a great position to make a judgment as opposed to relying on general vibe or feeling. As for you, you have history when it comes to this. Remember when you said Daisy was firming as our next captain? So what's the basis of your argument? Opinion? Fair enough, I'm combining my opinion with facts something you continuously fail to acknowledge, not just in this topic but in every other thing we disagree on. When someone constantly contradicts what you're saying on a forum, all the time, with little basis for their argument other than a few hypotheticals, it gets a little tiresome. You did after all concede last year that Mick was indeed going poorly and the only reason you stuck up for him was to spite me. Doesn't get much more pisstakey than that wouldn't you say?
Re belittling where did I belittle you. My point is no one that has seen enough of them that knows anything about football would have them as a middle of the road side NOR would they compare them to us in terms of where they are at. In essence your comments have proved that you have seen very little of them as opposed to saying they prove you've watched a lot of them. Sht like that brings the worst out in me just ask my missus I cannot stand when someone takes the piss Especially someone complaining about belittlement then questioning my manhood. You really are a hypocrite. I hope that settles things for you.
I think it is time to settle down, boys. No need to raise the blood pressure. Shake hands and turn things down. Think of this as a friendly reminder.
I care not for what you think of me Carrots. You have a barrow to push.
Anyone who doesnt agree with you is delusional and speaks BS.
Anyone who does, seems to be level headed and a speaker of the truth.
At the end of the day, its all a bunch of opinions. What will happen will happen. We shall see where North sit in due course, and vice versa where we sit and likewise the rest of the competition. Things can change quickly.
Regarding me and my opinion, if you dont like it, dont read it. Disagree with it, move on. I stated where I thought North were, and straight away you jumped on it.
Regarding last seasons arguments, opinions can and will change. Deal with it.
Jury is out on North IMO......they are in the bracket below the top shelf teams but their coach has judged they are only a few players away and has rolled the dice with
Waite and Higgins to bridge the gap along with Dal Santo from last season.
They have an even list but lack the big name A graders that the heavyweights do...they are capable of beating anyone but I wouldnt be backing them to say win 3 finals in a row vs high quality opposition as they just lack that consistency IMO.
The fact we can beat North probably proves they are not there yet.......if Waite, Higgins and Dal Santo dont work out then they are back with the mid pack hackers like us and looking at a new coach and mini rebuild.
Regarding me and my opinion, if you dont like it, dont read it. Disagree with it, move on. I stated where I thought North were, and straight away you jumped on it.
You quoted me, stop contradicting me with baseless arguments and I'll leave you alone. ;)
Regarding me and my opinion, if you dont like it, dont read it. Disagree with it, move on. I stated where I thought North were, and straight away you jumped on it.
You quoted me, stop contradicting me with baseless arguments and I'll leave you alone. ;)
Did I? I think I'll find you quoted me and I simply stated one sentence:
Yet we beat North last season.
Last I checked you were not the only one talking them up.
I don't think it's up to you to leave me alone, you will read my comments or go to another forum. I ain't budging.
Then don't be cry baby when you get a response. :)
North Melbourne is getting so much attention here. Even though they are fairly similar to Richmond. beating sides they should never be able to compete with (On paper), and yet choke in games and situations, where they should win with ease. I think our supporters need to see a far better season from our club, to forget comparing our great club to North and/or Richmond type clubs. Clubs that will not see a flag for the next 20 years. I know we haven't seen one for quite some time, but I strongly believe we are closer to a flag than some clubs. The above mentioned being two of them.
North Melbourne is getting so much attention here. Even though they are fairly similar to Richmond. beating sides they should never be able to compete with (On paper), and yet choke in games and situations, where they should win with ease. I think our supporters need to see a far better season from our club, to forget comparing our great club to North and/or Richmond type clubs. Clubs that will not see a flag for the next 20 years. I know we haven't seen one for quite some time, but I strongly believe we are closer to a flag than some clubs. The above mentioned being two of them.
I thought that in 96, 99 and 2000. Here we are 20 yrs down the track North have won 2 since then and we have go donuts. Careful what you say is the lesson.
That's just weak carrots.
GIC. Both sides were different years ago. They both had different work ethics and played for their supporters and the jumper. I just can't see the current North Melbourne getting closer to being a force over the next 10 years. They are adding depth, but Waite isn't the best player in the comp when it comes to being reliable. If he isn't injured, he is getting reported, or when he is on the park, he goes missing in action. How old is he again, 24 ??. Higgins has had more time missing due to injuries than any other player I know. Dal Santo is young right ?? early 20's ??
I can't see how this side of theirs will do way better than they did last season. I think they had a lucky season and played above their abilities, but that is just my opinion. I can't see how they have added depth that will bring them a flag in the next 5 or so years.
North Melbourne is getting so much attention here. Even though they are fairly similar to Richmond. beating sides they should never be able to compete with (On paper), and yet choke in games and situations, where they should win with ease. I think our supporters need to see a far better season from our club, to forget comparing our great club to North and/or Richmond type clubs. Clubs that will not see a flag for the next 20 years. I know we haven't seen one for quite some time, but I strongly believe we are closer to a flag than some clubs. The above mentioned being two of them.
Hope springs eternal Mantis, and good on you.
Me?
Well I'm just about fagged out, we haven't fired a shot for almost 15 years and we don't look like firing a shot in the next 5.
Some of our best players are getting on and we don't have enough young guns coming through to fill their boots, and we're shallow in the midfield and don't have a quality key forward.
I'm not excited about Richmond at all but I think North are a professional outfit who get the best out of their limited resources.
They have no supporters, no money, crap facilities and they've never had a consistent run of high draft picks like some other clubs yet they remain very competitive, I think that we could learn a lot from them in terms of attitude.
Spot on. They have earned my respect, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Of course it helps that I've won plenty of coin off them but that's not the point.
GIC. Both sides were different years ago. They both had different work ethics and played for their supporters and the jumper. I just can't see the current North Melbourne getting closer to being a force over the next 10 years. They are adding depth, but Waite isn't the best player in the comp when it comes to being reliable. If he isn't injured, he is getting reported, or when he is on the park, he goes missing in action. How old is he again, 24 ??. Higgins has had more time missing due to injuries than any other player I know. Dal Santo is young right ?? early 20's ??
I can't see how this side of theirs will do way better than they did last season. I think they had a lucky season and played above their abilities, but that is just my opinion. I can't see how they have added depth that will bring them a flag in the next 5 or so years.
Mate I dont disagree with any of that. Its just that I am so gun shy due to the performances of our mob in the last 20 years that I personally am very wary about comparing us to anyone just at the moment.
North are a professional outfit who get the best out of their limited resources.
And to be honest, this is the one area that has disappointed me about MM since he arrived. I expected him to get more out of more of the blokes with limited talent. I suppose Rowe has turned things around and some others have improved but I expected more. Perhaps its just that some of the blokes we had/have with limited talent just arent up to it (you know the old saying about strawberry jam and pig s#it).
I'm not sure that we can give Malthouse credit for player improvement, or blame him for lack of development. It hasn't been part of our culture and I don't think our coaching panel is set up to get the most out of our list. Even though we're not into 'quick fixes', it seems that we are focussed more on bringing in fringe players than developing those we already have.
At odds with that is our success in getting blokes like Setanta, Tuohy, Sheehan and even Hammer to be at least competitive at AFL level. Whoever has worked with those blokes should be given a bigger role.
Of course, other clubs have structures that enable them to get away with blokes who lack a little polish. Our set up enables other clubs to exploit our skill or decision-making errors.
North are a professional outfit who get the best out of their limited resources.
And to be honest, this is the one area that has disappointed me about MM since he arrived. I expected him to get more out of more of the blokes with limited talent. I suppose Rowe has turned things around and some others have improved but I expected more. Perhaps its just that some of the blokes we had/have with limited talent just arent up to it (you know the old saying about strawberry jam and pig s#it).
He can only work with what he's got, and our abysmal record at the national draft over two decades means he doesn't have much.
Last year he brought in Everitt, Docherty and Thomas who are all walk up starts, and even rookie listing Wood now looks like a good call, but filling a team with quality players isn't a one or two year project.
Unless some of our draft picks start making the grade we'll still be behind the eight ball.
Murphy, Walker, Gibbs, Yarran and Kreuzer are all very good players but they were all high picks, after we get to pick 10 or so we get into Lucas, Bootsma, Watson and Russell territory and you'll never build a Premiership team out of them.
Our second and third round picks have been a litany of failure for longer than I care to remember, Simmo in 2002 was the last good player we got outside the first round and he's no world beater.
I think Malthouse is the right man for the job but he can't work miracles.