After that disappointing loss to Collingwood on Friday night, we are still two games out of the 8 with only eight more games to be played. Thankfully, Port were not able to get over Essendon today otherwise we would be three games out of the 8 instead of two.
Games to come are :
Saints @ Etihad
Kangas @ Etihad
GoldCoast @ Metricon
Freo @ Etihad
Bulldogs @ Etihad
Tigers @ MCG
Essendon @ MCG
Port @ AAMI
Based on the way we are playing and have been for the major part of the season, there are no guaranteed wins in that lot apart from possibly the Bulldogs.
The question I'm putting to you all is quite simple, should Malthouse put the 'cue in the rack' now and play whoever he needs to from right across the list to have a good look at them or should he just 'soldier on' regardless ??
The benefit of packing up is that any player who needs surgery or whatever can get it whilst players like Mitchell, Duigan & Laidler can be given a thorough oppprtunity to stake their claim to be retained on the list.
The benefit of 'soldiering on' is that the players will be kept under the pump for the remainder of the season and we are driven to fight out all games with our best side in at all times.
There really is no right or wrong answer here, it's probably going to be based on whether you think we can make finals or not. One thing I'd really hate is to finish 9th and then see the Asadendon get their points pulled and we were to go into 8th position for the finals.
If it was Freo fro example it'd be taking 8th from 9th on false pretences. Seeing it's Essendon though taking a finals spot at their expense because they cheated, that would be an absolute pleasure.
Finals are on the cards. Port should lose to Hawthorn, hopefully putting us just one game, plus we play Port last match. Season would be in our own hands then.
Refresh the 22 and game style with Menzel, Graham, Buckley and get rid of nearly all the tagging and taggers. Kills our run and by extensions kills our forward line. Bring Watson in and see what he has, especially after a brilliant game today, and play Henderson forward. Run a 3 pronged forward line with Henderson, Waite, who may well come up, and Casboult. Waite as 3rd marking, and running, tall. Might save him a few injuries. Yarran back at half back and Walker right in the guts, same with Gibbs and Simpson
If it was Freo fro example it'd be taking 8th from 9th on false pretences. Seeing it's Essendon though taking a finals spot at their expense because they cheated, that would be an absolute pleasure.
Finals are on the cards. Port should lose to Hawthorn, hopefully putting us just one game, plus we play Port last match. Season would be in our own hands then.
Refresh the 22 and game style with Menzel, Graham, Buckley and get rid of nearly all the tagging and taggers. Kills our run and by extensions kills our forward line. Bring Watson in and see what he has, especially after a brilliant game today, and play Henderson forward. Run a 3 pronged forward line with Henderson, Waite, who may well come up, and Casboult. Waite as 3rd marking, and running, tall. Might save him a few injuries. Yarran back at half back and Walker right in the guts, same with Gibbs and Simpson
You just made me smile. Thank you. Made me think we still have the years destiny in our hands.
Maybe just maybe by the end of the year we will all look back at this period and laugh at all the negative posts and thoughts as we are thru to the second week of the finals.
Oh well I can dream!
None of the queue in the rack business.
I expect Malthouse to get the side playing competitive structured football where the expectation is to play to win, and players earn their opportunities to play in the roles as set out by "the game plan".
The results become what they become with the season being pretty much cooked it will actually give us something to work towards.
For too long if you were good enough you got a game, and its about time it became all about who wants it most.
The smart thing to do is to get games into Menzel, Buckley, Graham and Bell if he's available to set those players up for next season, we could do that and still be picking competitive teams.
We made the mistake with Yarran of not playing him enough in his first season then dropping him after one bad game in his second.
Talented players are hard to find and we should make the most of the ones we've got.
Early call Sheik. Either way we are just on that balancing edge. I think we are better playing some of the younger guys, but still enough experience to try to beat the Saints. Once we drop that game our season is completely finished because of our draw. Its hard to say though. Mathematically we are a chance to get into the top 8, by reality shows we won't. Too little given by the players too late. Or should I say they have given nothing of late. >:(
The smart thing to do is to get games into Menzel, Buckley, Graham and Bell if he's available to set those players up for next season, we could do that and still be picking competitive teams.
We made the mistake with Yarran of not playing him enough in his first season then dropping him after one bad game in his second.
Talented players are hard to find and we should make the most of the ones we've got.
This
Even If the Scum lose points and we climb into the 8, we won't trouble Hawthorn, Geelong or Sydney. We'd be better served by preparing for next season and blooding the kids who will make it.
FWIW, we've gone down the tanking route before....not that that is what your alluding to but I'd be getting the boys to give everything they've got for the rest of the year. If you start giving games to guys who dont deserve it, it just sends the wrong message to the rest of the group I reckon.
Pick the best available team every fricken week and "learn" to win again. Learn the process, perfect the process. Teach everything that you want our players to do MM!!!!!.
The smart thing to do is to get games into Menzel, Buckley, Graham and Bell if he's available to set those players up for next season, we could do that and still be picking competitive teams.
We made the mistake with Yarran of not playing him enough in his first season then dropping him after one bad game in his second.
Talented players are hard to find and we should make the most of the ones we've got.
This
Even If the Scum lose points and we climb into the 8, we won't trouble Hawthorn, Geelong or Sydney. We'd be better served by preparing for next season and blooding the kids who will make it.
Agree completely with this. We will not trouble anyone of note in the finals and if we lose to the Saints we're cooked anyway.
.
Games to come are :
Saints @ Etihad
Kangas @ Etihad
GoldCoast @ Metricon
Freo @ Etihad
Bulldogs @ Etihad
Tigers @ MCG
Essendon @ MCG
Port @ AAMI
We could potentially lose every one of those games. That's a scary thought.
Time to play Buckley, Menzel, Laidler, Dugan, Ellard, Warnock, Mitchell and the like.
.
Games to come are :
Saints @ Etihad
Kangas @ Etihad
GoldCoast @ Metricon
Freo @ Etihad
Bulldogs @ Etihad
Tigers @ MCG
Essendon @ MCG
Port @ AAMI
We could potentially lose every one of those games. That's a scary thought.
Time to play Buckley, Menzel, Laidler, Dugan, Ellard, Warnock, Mitchell and the like.
I agree we need to give these guys a run, but I think its important we dont gift players games. Mitchell and Warnock are consistently poor at Northern, and few others have consistently put good games together. MM clearly has no future plans for Duigan and Laidler, so wont play them. We are far to negative playing essentially 3 taggers. In our pursuit of a more defensive gameplan we have lost any offensive drive. Would love to see 2E play in the midfield, maybe Buckley on a wing
.
Games to come are :
Saints @ Etihad
Kangas @ Etihad
GoldCoast @ Metricon
Freo @ Etihad
Bulldogs @ Etihad
Tigers @ MCG
Essendon @ MCG
Port @ AAMI
We could potentially lose every one of those games. That's a scary thought.
Time to play Buckley, Menzel, Laidler, Dugan, Ellard, Warnock, Mitchell and the like.
I agree we need to give these guys a run, but I think its important we dont gift players games. Mitchell and Warnock are consistently poor at Northern, and few others have consistently put good games together. MM clearly has no future plans for Duigan and Laidler, so wont play them. We are far to negative playing essentially 3 taggers. In our pursuit of a more defensive gameplan we have lost any offensive drive. Would love to see 2E play in the midfield, maybe Buckley on a wing
I can see where you are coming from.
I am actually of another mind. Maybe it is not a matter of not giving players in the 2s a game if they have not earned it, but rather, it is a question of not dropping players in the 1s who do not meet high enough standards. Maybe they are living off their possible potentials and maybe the Coaches and MC have got this the wrong way around.
It has been mentioned many times before that players were not being dropped. Not only where they not dropped, but the people in the 2s had probably a less than expected chance to play for a spot - given that it was probably never going to appear bar injuries. As a professional sportsman, that has to hurt.
At this stage and moving forward, we give all the kids a run out and from next year drop anyone not meeting KPIs like any professional. I think that is the way to garner not just a competitive environment, but it encourages a collective will to win. If you loose the game, you could be watching from the stands the next weekend.
I'd drop Gibbs personally.
There's no way I want to see us even consider giving up on this season, no matter how many games we lose or how unlikely it is that we'll play finals.
It simply sends the wrong message to the players and instills a losing mentality. Given we already have so many mental frailties to contend with, the last thing I want to see is us creating more of our own.
We need to be trying to win every game we can regardless of ladder position and we need to finish where we finish in order to get an accurate reflection of where the list is at. If we lose all of those games we'll probably finish about 15th but at least we'll know that we're a bottom four side and rebuild accordingly. If we somehow win all of them, we'll play finals and we'll know that we're not all that far away.
That's the only way we answer the question of whether we need wholesale changes to the list or just some more positional tweaking.
You can't answer that by artificially creating a false environment.
Culture building must be the priority and so we must field our best available and performing 22 for each remaining game. Play guys who show something in the VFL as and when they do e.g. Watson this week. or when injuries open up a spot.
I'm sure that MM has a pretty good idea of who will go/stay by now and doesn't need too much further "experimentation" with team selection.
If we lose any of the next 3 we put the cue in the rack. Speaking to a Richmond fan at work and he reckons they won't make the 8 now lol.
There's no way I want to see us even consider giving up on this season, no matter how many games we lose or how unlikely it is that we'll play finals.
It simply sends the wrong message to the players and instills a losing mentality. Given we already have so many mental frailties to contend with, the last thing I want to see is us creating more of our own.
We need to be trying to win every game we can regardless of ladder position and we need to finish where we finish in order to get an accurate reflection of where the list is at. If we lose all of those games we'll probably finish about 15th but at least we'll know that we're a bottom four side and rebuild accordingly. If we somehow win all of them, we'll play finals and we'll know that we're not all that far away.
That's the only way we answer the question of whether we need wholesale changes to the list or just some more positional tweaking.
You can't answer that by artificially creating a false environment.
True comment that. Every game should be treated as winnable. No tanking.
There are many candidates who played well below their "potential" last week. I suggest it is not just fair but the Coaches and MC's responsibility to drop any under performing players, including the "specials" and let a hungry kid play who will throw his heart and soul into the next game. And yes, I am saying drop players like Gibbs. 150+ games and saunters around the pitch like an aristocrat. if only he showed a fraction of the endeavour and heart of Judd. F$ucking unbelievable waste of talent. I say drop him and scare the crape out of him.
There's no way I want to see us even consider giving up on this season, no matter how many games we lose or how unlikely it is that we'll play finals.
It simply sends the wrong message to the players and instills a losing mentality. Given we already have so many mental frailties to contend with, the last thing I want to see is us creating more of our own.
We need to be trying to win every game we can regardless of ladder position and we need to finish where we finish in order to get an accurate reflection of where the list is at. If we lose all of those games we'll probably finish about 15th but at least we'll know that we're a bottom four side and rebuild accordingly. If we somehow win all of them, we'll play finals and we'll know that we're not all that far away.
That's the only way we answer the question of whether we need wholesale changes to the list or just some more positional tweaking.
You can't answer that by artificially creating a false environment.
True comment that. Every game should be treated as winnable. No tanking.
There are many candidates who played well below their "potential" last week. I suggest it is not just fair but the Coaches and MC's responsibility to drop any under performing players, including the "specials" and let a hungry kid play who will throw his heart and soul into the next game. And yes, I am saying drop players like Gibbs. 150+ games and saunters around the pitch like an aristocrat. if only he showed a fraction of the endeavour and heart of Judd. F$ucking unbelievable waste of talent. I say drop him and scare the crape out of him.
EXACTAMONDO. Regardless of ladder position we MUST set out, in every game from now until year's end (just in relation to this year), give our very best in every way. We must develop a mongrel determination to ruthlessly deliver what the coaches demand... anything short of this commitment from everyone should be viewed as totally and absolutely inadequate and the perpetrator(s) shown the door with great swiftness. (interesting that the word 'perpetrator' has the word 'trator' in it).
I'd drop Gibbs personally.
What is the logic behind dropping Gibbs?
Not best 22?
Poor Attitude?
Not living up the hype?
Secondly, what do you hope to achieve by doing so?
The smart thing to do is to get games into Menzel, Buckley, Graham and Bell if he's available to set those players up for next season, we could do that and still be picking competitive teams.
We made the mistake with Yarran of not playing him enough in his first season then dropping him after one bad game in his second.
Talented players are hard to find and we should make the most of the ones we've got.
Blood the kids ? We only have 2 or 3 good enough to blood. Do we have evidence that by blooding said kids that it actually prepares them better for the next season ?
This
Even If the Scum lose points and we climb into the 8, we won't trouble Hawthorn, Geelong or Sydney. We'd be better served by preparing for next season and blooding the kids who will make it.
How would we tell between cue in the rack and the sh1t we've dished up at different times this year.
How would we tell between cue in the rack and the sh1t we've dished up at different times this year.
Players may well decide when the cue goes in the rack.
How would we tell between cue in the rack and the sh1t we've dished up at different times this year.
Players may well decide when the cue goes in the rack.
Could be the shortest time frame in history of a coach losing the players.
How would we tell between cue in the rack and the sh1t we've dished up at different times this year.
Players may well decide when the cue goes in the rack.
Could be the shortest time frame in history of a coach losing the players.
Not sure apparently Neeld made a fair attempt.
How would we tell between cue in the rack and the sh1t we've dished up at different times this year.
Players may well decide when the cue goes in the rack.
Could be the shortest time frame in history of a coach losing the players.
Not sure apparently Neeld made a fair attempt.
MM taught him everything he knew. :)
Cue in the rack....again. Another wasted year.
Not enough leaders on the park. We won't be any good until this is addressed.
Cue in the rack....again. Another wasted year.
Not enough leaders on the park. We won't be any good until this is addressed.
Agree about leadership on the park but it's a club leadership problem as well. We are still paying for the dark years in many ways. Our development and development 'culture' has been crap.
Our team previously full of X-factor players who could burn up the field is looking very slow, pedestrian and one-paced.
Put in the kids, get some excitement happening.
Put in the kids, get some excitement happening.
If Menzel and Bucks don't get a game this week I will vomit!
I would also throw in Graham at the expense of either Cachia Curnow, Armfield
I would also throw in Graham at the expense of either Cachia Curnow, Armfield
If they play Menzel and Buckley it's unlikely they will also play Graham I think. It's just too bold for them.
Graham deserves gig more than Buckley IMO.
We need to ingest some pace into our midfield.
Graham deserves gig more than Buckley IMO.
We need to ingest some pace into our midfield.
Yeah I wouldn't mind seeing Menzel and Graham come in and then maybe Buckley in a couple of games time. Whatever we do we have to do something - we cannot keep going on like this.
It was interesting that Matty Lodge said on Twitter that Graham was tagged last week against Essendon. That's a sign they obviously rated him.
I think it is cue in the rack time
It is glaringly obvious that we just don’t have the squad to even dream of contending! Our recruiting and lack of player development in the last 10 years has been deplorable and is really hurting us. It leaves us mired in mid-table mediocrity.
Play Graham, Menzel, Buckley for the rest of the year and prepare for next year. Hopefully, now that a dose of reality has hit us and with the blowtorch firmly on us, we can do a proper revitalisation of player list and every footballing position at our club. The current status quo is simply not good enough!
Cue in the rack time....play some kids and maybe give a couple of other players who are fringe dwellars one last chance to show something.
The fact that Menzel, Buckley and Graham represent all that is in the 2's worth having a look at is an indictment on this club.
From a list of what 46, minus say 22 senior players, a few injured, and out of all the rest we can find a sum total of 3 kids worth looking at?
Kind of implies that there are around 10-15 list cloggers stealing oxygen... why are they still there ??? Why weren't they culled last year???
The fact that Menzel, Buckley and Graham represent all that is in the 2's worth having a look at is an indictment on this club.
From a list of what 46, minus say 22 senior players, a few injured, and out of all the rest we can find a sum total of 3 kids worth looking at?
Kind of implies that there are around 10-15 list cloggers stealing oxygen... why are they still there ??? Why weren't they culled last year???
I agree Prof........its slim pickings, I would add Bell to that list.
Watson, Mitchell and McCarthy need looking at in the seniors before a decision is made on their futures as well.
Reckon Temay is another recruiting bust too.
10-15 reads about right in terms of players going nowhere......
The fact that Menzel, Buckley and Graham represent all that is in the 2's worth having a look at is an indictment on this club.
From a list of what 46, minus say 22 senior players, a few injured, and out of all the rest we can find a sum total of 3 kids worth looking at?
Kind of implies that there are around 10-15 list cloggers stealing oxygen... why are they still there ??? Why weren't they culled last year???
You are right. It IS an indictment on this club - it's negligence, just shocking the goings on here.
It is very disheartening! We have an excessive number of players who’s lack of development and years on our list have been of great detriment to the on-field fortunes of our team. We have drafted poorly, developed badly and been below-par with our list management decisions.
I was thinking about adding Watson but he seems to have been lumped by Mick in the “never to play again category” ala Laids and Duigan.
As for McCarthy and Mitchell, if the NB reports are anything to go by, there are a pair of KP selections that will be added to the long list of flops over the last 10+ years!
Our culture cant afford to put the queue in the rack. we have done this every time the finals have been over. Why do you think we fail when it gets hard?
Because we have bred a culture of putting the queue in the rack as soon as it gets hard.
We go hard to win every contest one at a time from here on in, and I dont want to hear talk of draft picks.
It is very disheartening! We have an excessive number of players who’s lack of development and years on our list have been of great detriment to the on-field fortunes of our team. We have drafted poorly, developed badly and been below-par with our list management decisions.
I was thinking about adding Watson but he seems to have been lumped by Mick in the “never to play again category” ala Laids and Duigan.
As for McCarthy and Mitchell, if the NB reports are anything to go by, there are a pair of KP selections that will be added to the long list of flops over the last 10+ years!
This week's team will at least indicate which players such as those you've posted are earmarked to go. Maybe Laidler is not among them having heard about the recent knee pin removal story - he might come back eventually.
why are they still there ??? Why weren't they culled last year???
They're still here because the club thought the list was good enough and all it needed was a better coach. Now the list isn't good enough, so they want different players. Ratten has taken a fall, IMO, until those who believed the list was a premiership winning list just needing a tweakhere or there also need to go. When that happens, then I'll know we're serious.
why are they still there ??? Why weren't they culled last year???
They're still here because the club thought the list was good enough and all it needed was a better coach. Now the list isn't good enough, so they want different players. Ratten has taken a fall, IMO, until those who believed the list was a premiership winning list just needing a tweakhere or there also need to go. When that happens, then I'll know we're serious.
All true. The powers that be did honestly believe we were good enough and the addition of Malthouse was the missing ingredient to take us to top 4 and play a style that would survive the finals.
We were wrong. Now we are faced with the possibility and emerging reality that we are probably Hawthorn circa 2001.
People laugh at Richmonds recruiting, but since Hardwick has got to the club their picks have been great. The worst first pick they have is Conca and he's decent.
Our recruiting has looked too often for all day runners, which are great but they need to get the ball too.
Menzel looks good so far, showed a fair bit of grunt in the limited time he has got at senior level he looks to be a decent size but then you look at who is behind him Graham, Temay and Buckley all slight and short so you have to question the recruiting of Temay when a bigger body would have rounded out the squad a bit more.
Mitchell is someone who needs to be played in the seniors soon. I know RiverRat has a poor opinion of him but I watched the first quarter of the last VFL game on TV and the three times it was kicked towards Mitchell the first he was up against two defenders and the ball was lost, the second the ball was kicked on the wrong side and the third was just booted in his general direction and was given no chance. A FF relies on the mids to get him the ball, he has limitations with speed but when you don't kick the ball to his advantage then what hope does any forward have. Give him a go while Waite is out, especially against St Kilda where they have a smaller backline and start kicking the ball to his advantage.
I worry sometimes that our forward plan is to bomb it long to a contest and bring it to ground for our smalls, all well and good on occasions, but a high ball forward draws cumbers from both teams leaving it hard for our slightly built smalls to get enough room to move. Kick it to a one on one with only one front and centre and chance are our smalls will beat their defenders 70% of the time.
The fact that Menzel, Buckley and Graham represent all that is in the 2's worth having a look at is an indictment on this club.
From a list of what 46, minus say 22 senior players, a few injured, and out of all the rest we can find a sum total of 3 kids worth looking at?
Kind of implies that there are around 10-15 list cloggers stealing oxygen... why are they still there ??? Why weren't they culled last year???
I reckon MM did the right thing. Gave all the list a chance to show their capability, some of these DC's havent taken the opportunity. Too bad so sad, move them on and bring in new blood.
why are they still there ??? Why weren't they culled last year???
They're still here because the club thought the list was good enough and all it needed was a better coach. Now the list isn't good enough, so they want different players. Ratten has taken a fall, IMO, until those who believed the list was a premiership winning list just needing a tweakhere or there also need to go. When that happens, then I'll know we're serious.
This is a great example of 'the fish rots from the head'.