We know how these things end. ::)
Thank you for your service Daniel.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1258230?fbclid=IwAR39uwpP82skUnIZuk45KAjEYlgCHWe_LMizVQqmLZtbUIgz-bFhby-e5YQ
We know how these things end. ::)
Thank you for your service Daniel.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1258230?fbclid=IwAR39uwpP82skUnIZuk45KAjEYlgCHWe_LMizVQqmLZtbUIgz-bFhby-e5YQ
Nice guy but...
We know how these things end. ::)
Thank you for your service Daniel.
I came to the same conclusion after about 0.05 seconds reading the title.
I'd be gobsmacked if anything else happened.
Reality should point the finger at why Bri Davey felt the need to leave....and more than a few since. If all they find is Harford is the issue, they are NOT doing a proper review.
Harford is not the problem, he has pretty much been constrained in what he can achieve off the back of toxic events earlier in the club's AFLW / VFLW history.
But that won't necessarily stop Harford wearing the blame, there is a lot of "bitchiness" in AFLW surpassed only by the "cliques", as a club we failed to manage that aspect of AFLW early on and I feel it cost us several key players. "AFLW cliques" are not like a bunch of mates in a footy team.
In men's footy we often say you don't have to be best mates with the bloke next to you but when the siren sounds it's game on and business as usual and you play for those around you like your own life depends on it, ..................... it's not like that at all in AFLW! ;)
Because the AFL permitted other clubs to throw buckets of cash at expansion clubs, and one in particular, and we couldn't do anything about it? Morale must have been sweet when your guns leave for cash, throw your former club under the bus and the guts get ripped from your list....with hardly any chance to rebuild by recruitment or the draft. A horrible, unbalanced competition. Harford had no chance this year - none.
There is an interesting juxtaposition coming for AFLW, at the moment it's dominated by recruits who want to play the men's game style. But it's only a temporary phenomenon.
The feature of AFLW that made it successful early is likely to massively and rapidly diminish within a generation or two of players.
At that time, the game style will evolve to suit the girls, it won't be a bunch of girls running around pretending to play like the men. They will have a completely separate set of match day team tactics, and if not subject to external interference the rules are also likely to evolve away from the men's game. It'll take a concerted effort from individuals to keep it looking similar to the men's game, but those individuals will rapidly become the minority.
Once the corporates wake up to this and take it seriously they will realise the massive earnings potential, and when the club Administrations get on board it's all over for girls playing footy in man suits.
You can't build an enduring robust national or state level competition based on minority interests, you need the majority on board as supporters and participants.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that when the Federal or State funding dries up some club's withdraw from the competition unless they are to receive ongoing subsidises from the AFL.
Sorry for the cynicism.
It's funny LP, my daughter is on the fringes of the AFLW system (she has very close friends involved) and what you talk about is what I see and it's an issue. I'm not sure what to call it, it comes across as what you called "bitchiness" (I hate that term) but there's clearly a me me me aspect of selfishness to many players and "closed shop" player cliques within the clubs. This doesn't make for an environment whereby all players pull equally hard on the rope at the same time. It's really divisive. Many of these players have fought bloody hard to get where they are, I get the feeling some of them lose sight of the fact that it's teams that win, that individual success is inextricably related to team success.
There is an interesting juxtaposition coming for AFLW, at the moment it's dominated by recruits who want to play the men's game style. But it's only a temporary phenomenon.
Its not only the mens game the try and replicated, its the lingo, the mannerisms, its very noticeable the change from the humble beginnings to now. Be yourselves ladies, create your own thing.
It's funny LP, my daughter is on the fringes of the AFLW system (she has very close friends involved) and what you talk about is what I see and it's an issue.
In recent years our club has tried to be more inclusive, more balanced, after a less than salubrious start.
Other club's that tend towards a less global/moral approach have actively pursued this minority aspect of AFLW, generating cliques and divides as they go, but they can't survive that way because it's a minority perspective. They are going to burn their social capital very quickly if they don't have almost immediate success.
In the short term it has cost us dearly, but in the long term we should be better off.
Now the other thing to remember at the moment, in the short term, these cliques are not just restricted to on-field! ;)
It's quite bizarre to see AFLW teams and club's shooting themselves in the foot, but they do and will continue to do so in the short term.
A common theme here seems to be 'evolution'.
As others allude to, it's probably a little unfair to look at a fledgling competition and expect it to mirror a fully professional league with around a 170 years of development (VFA, VFL, AFL)
I'm also on board with the theory that it may be better to modify aspects of the game as time goes by that will see it similar to, but not identical to, the mens competition.
I was half listening to the wireless recently when a comment from a national women’s sport administrator (cricket I think) caught my attention. It was along the lines “not women playing men’s sport but women playing their version of the sport.”
I have mixed feelings when I see an AFLW player bump an opponent when the ball is out of play. It’s mildly amusing to see the girls aping an unnecessary part on the men’s game but it’s sad that they think that they have to.
As for the review, it will be disappointing if player retention is not highlighted as a key factor in our failure to consistently feature in the finals. I don’t know if Harf is the best coach for us but he seems to get the most out of a list that has its share of issues.
Just on the player retention aspect...
It is an important issue, and to be honest one that has affected my interest in the side's progression.
But until we had a full complement of sides this movement was always going to occur as new teams entered the competition.
It's something the review should address, but it will be more of a concern if it's still occurring in three to four years time.
Just on the player retention aspect...
It is an important issue, and to be honest one that has affected my interest in the side's progression.
But until we had a full complement of sides this movement was always going to occur as new teams entered the competition.
It's something the review should address, but it will be more of a concern if it's still occurring in three to four years time.
Player retention is for the most part on the AFL. They made it open slather instead of a controlled, slow burn for the new clubs. They allowed 3 of our best players to be pilfered in the one year (two to the same club). They should have put a rule in place that only one or two players from each club could be pilfered in any say 3 year block, first in best dressed. Coaching aside, by allowing this to happen, they set us back years.
We lost (to name a few):
Harris (good riddance)
Twin 1
Twin 2
Egan
Prespakis
GG
Thats akin to loosing from the mens side say:
H or Charlie
Walsh
Cripps
Kennedy
Fisher
SOS
There are others but do that to any side and they are cactus. This is another large reason why I completely lost interest.
It's funny LP, my daughter is on the fringes of the AFLW system (she has very close friends involved) and what you talk about is what I see and it's an issue. I'm not sure what to call it, it comes across as what you called "bitchiness" (I hate that term) but there's clearly a me me me aspect of selfishness to many players and "closed shop" player cliques within the clubs. This doesn't make for an environment whereby all players pull equally hard on the rope at the same time. It's really divisive. Many of these players have fought bloody hard to get where they are, I get the feeling some of them lose sight of the fact that it's teams that win, that individual success is inextricably related to team success.
This is not an unusual phenomenon in sports.
It is not unique to the women's game.
Our current batch of men have a couple in the team as an example. They're good players too, and it only becomes an issue if they're not or if they start seeing off competitors for their role.
This idea that the girls are only like this is the real issue regarding how we treat men and women.
Player retention is for the most part on the AFL. They made it open slather instead of a controlled, slow burn for the new clubs. They allowed 3 of our best players to be pilfered in the one year (two to the same club). They should have put a rule in place that only one or two players from each club could be pilfered in any say 3 year block, first in best dressed. Coaching aside, by allowing this to happen, they set us back years.
We lost (to name a few):
Harris (good riddance)
Twin 1
Twin 2
Egan
Prespakis
GG
Thats akin to loosing from the mens side say:
H or Charlie
Walsh
Cripps
Kennedy
Fisher
SOS
There are others but do that to any side and they are cactus. This is another large reason why I completely lost interest.
You missed Stevens, Jones and Brazzale over that same period.
Which is probably Jack, McGovern and Cottrell equivalents. (Take SOS out of your other list and include Cerra)
This is not an unusual phenomenon in sports.
This idea that the girls are only like this is the real issue regarding how we treat men and women.
I have not had enough to do with girls in team sport outside of footy or cricket to know the global answer to that question. I think it may be different for team events that are built on individual efforts like swimming, tennis or golf, etc., etc.. Even cricket seemed to suffer it less, but it's a much smaller tighter squad and the on field comes down to bat versus ball.
But I can say I've never seen anything in male footy teams like what goes on around and about the female footy teams, and changing a pronoun or two in the female squad makes bugger all difference.
In the men you get individual blokes that outright hate each other off the pitch for a variety of reasons, but it rarely persists and I've never seen it form a clique or seen blokes made a persona non grata like you find in a girls team. Of course you can see certain trouble players kicked out of any squad, like Carey at Norp, but this is not what we are talking about.
Which is why I chose the term clique.
I have not had enough to do with girls in team sport outside of footy or cricket to know the global answer to that question. I think it may be different for team events that are built on individual efforts like swimming, tennis or golf, etc., etc.. Even cricket seemed to suffer it less, but it's a much smaller tighter squad and the on field comes down to bat versus ball.
But I can say I've never seen anything in male footy teams like what goes on around and about the female footy teams, and changing a pronoun or two in the female squad makes bugger all difference.
In the men you get individual blokes that outright hate each other off the pitch for a variety of reasons, but it rarely persists and I've never seen it form a clique or seen blokes made a persona non grata like you find in a girls team. Of course you can see certain trouble players kicked out of any squad, like Carey at Norp, but this is not what we are talking about.
Which is why I chose the term clique.
Nth was a clique when Carey was at its peak, he ran the playing group with his henchman and everyone knew their place and it strangely worked and was sanctioned by the coach and admin. I dont follow the womens comp that closely but if you rip the heart out of the list like has what happened at Carlton and lose experience/talent then you quickly get the remaining players looking after their own survival and forgetting about the team.
Harford will be the fall guy but he hasnt done much wrong apart from being in the job at the wrong time of the clubs journey and being left with no star players to do the job with. Very hard to draft a team at this embryonic stage of the womens comp and you need to buy the best players like back when the mens team were successful and we used form fours to grab the best talent along with brown paper bags of cash.
I'd be really suprised if cliques weren't a major issue for our men's side in the last twenty years.
I'd say they also played a part in the demise of a coach or two.
And that may go a long way to explaining our lack of success.
I'd be really suprised if cliques weren't a major issue for our men's side in the last twenty years.
I'd say they also played a part in the demise of a coach or two.
And that may go a long way to explaining our lack of success.
I eluded to it before when i mentioned Bri Daveys name and non-halford issues.
Story goes she was promised a car (Sponsored by Hyundai) but that promise was not fulfilled for whatever reason, she got dirty because of it and put her offside. Then we basically sacked her girlfriend, supposedly in a manner that was deemed harsh and/or unfairly and that was the final straw.
The other players leaving are for a variety of reasons, expansion and $$$'s a big one, but not fitting within the team and/or losing the trust of the team being causing the demise of one of our highest profile departures.
Harford may or may (or may not) have been responsible for pissing a few players off and them wanting out, but IMO if a player doesn't want to do what the coach is required, we are better off moving them on. We don't need white ants.
But yes, Bri Davey leaving was separate to the others.
re cliques, happens in the mens game too. Think about the story about why Malthouse chose Maxwell as the captain of Collingwood - to unite the cliques.
re cliques, happens in the mens game too. Think about the story about why Malthouse chose Maxwell as the captain of Collingwood - to unite the cliques.
Same at Geelong with Harley....results show you can still have success with cliques if you know how to manage them.
Cliques are everywhere. Jack Martin is straight back into the team every time for a reason. Fisher, Martin and Cripps have a little tight nit group going on, and Id wager they play more than not.
It happens everywhere. Usually you got to be good as well as in the clique, but if not it can help you get a game.
Cliques are everywhere. Jack Martin is straight back into the team every time for a reason. Fisher, Martin and Cripps have a little tight nit group going on, and Id wager they play more than not.
Not sure fans disagreeing with MC decisions is hard evidence of a clique! ;D
Not sure fans disagreeing with MC decisions is hard evidence of a clique! ;D
True...the MC have provided plenty of evidence over the journey that just plain stupidity at times in selections is more of a natural occurrence than anything suspicious. However Zac Fisher went through a period where he couldnt get near the footy but was persisted with and Id be tempted to suggest having the Captain as your best buddy at the club didnt do him any harm in terms of keeping his place in the 22.
re: Martin...test will be when his contract expires, no way he should get a new deal given his erratic form and the fact he only plays 2/3 of the season due to injury if his career continues like it has over the years. If he got a 2-3 year deal then fans would be asking questions....
Not sure fans disagreeing with MC decisions is hard evidence of a clique! ;D
No, it isn't but they aren't all the same either.
Eddie, Jeff and yarran had a little clique going with mitch Robinson too back then.
Ive seen them at every team ive ever been involved in across my sporting life and the one thing ill tell you is that whilst they don't dictate who plays they can influence it, and they aren't necessarily bad things either.
The best teams are simply one giant clique.
This circles me back to my original point. Women are no more or less capable of this caniving behaviour than males are.
I think that males are less likely to flip flop surrounding it.
When Lods asked me if I’d take on a moderator role, he didn’t mention that it was very like trying to herd cats 🙄
How does a thread about the review of our AFLW program take in Jack Martin’s contract and imaginary cliques going back to the days of the three amigos? 🤔
We have one board for AFLW topics. Let’s try to limit the discussion here to women’s footy … or should that be non-male footy?
I hope I haven’t sent this thread off on another tangent 🙂
When Lods asked me if I’d take on a moderator role, he didn’t mention that it was very like trying to herd cats 🙄
How does a thread about the review of our AFLW program take in Jack Martin’s contract and imaginary cliques going back to the days of the three amigos? 🤔
We have one board for AFLW topics. Let’s try to limit the discussion here to women’s footy … or should that be non-male footy?
I hope I haven’t sent this thread off on another tangent 🙂
👍🏼🤣🤣
When Lods asked me if I’d take on a moderator role, he didn’t mention that it was very like trying to herd cats 🙄
How does a thread about the review of our AFLW program take in Jack Martin’s contract and imaginary cliques going back to the days of the three amigos? 🤔
We have one board for AFLW topics. Let’s try to limit the discussion here to women’s footy … or should that be non-male footy?
I hope I haven’t sent this thread off on another tangent 🙂
here i was making a case for females not being treated like inferior backstabbers because the men do it too, and using tangible examples from our own sordid past to do so, and then seeing it become a moderation point.
This is how you fight for women not to be denigrated and being treated with the respect they deserve.
Am I from a different planet or something? Or has the world gone politically correctly stupid?
Am I from a different planet or something? Or has the world gone politically correctly stupid?
Obviously not, obviously so!
You've read too much into the commentary, and then built an argument that is somehow trying to justify one wrong with another!
Obviously not, obviously so!
You've read too much into the commentary, and then built an argument that is somehow trying to justify one wrong with another!
no the stereotype of catty females form bitchy circles is what im challenging. Guys can be bitches (and are) too.
here i was making a case for females not being treated like inferior backstabbers because the men do it too, and using tangible examples from our own sordid past to do so, and then seeing it become a moderation point.
This is how you fight for women not to be denigrated and being treated with the respect they deserve.
Am I from a different planet or something? Or has the world gone politically correctly stupid?
I'm not sure whether your contribution helps or hinders the feminist cause, but it's got nothing to do with our AFLW review. Start a new thread if you like :)
I'm probably as responsible for setting the thread off on a bit of a tangent as anyone with my mention of cliques affecting our men's team as well.
I can see some relevance because the women will be judged by the same standards as apply with the men's side, with some allowance made for the semi-professional nature of the women's team at present, but to bring us back on track....
The review will no doubt look at a lot of aspects.
We know the main focus will no doubt be on the coaching.
You wouldn't have to be Nostradamus to predict that there will be changes at the coaching level.
Other areas that will be looked at will be skill development, recruiting, player retention...and the developing culture.
From the outside this looks a bit half-cocked, premature and a bit of a smoke screen for the old coach-sacking chestnut.
If you're going to sack the coach just do it.
But as far as other aspects go, unless there has been some genuine disquiet and complaints from certain team members regarding 'culture' then let the bloody thing settle down.
In many respects this is 'Year One.'
Now that all sides are established we should see a settling of player movement in the coming years.
That in itself should give some stability to the team.
I think that it’s the right time for a review, provided it’s not just looking for reasons to part ways with Harf.
We have had a couple of competitive seasons but we’re really off the pace in comparison to the successful clubs. The review should examine every aspect of our AFLW program including list management, fitness and conditioning, training, gameplan, team selection, culture and coaching. I would be reaching out to former players to find out why they left.
The review should set out a strategy for success and it should then be a matter of determining what personnel are best able to implement the strategy. That may or may not include Harf and it should also identify deficiencies in our list.
I think that it’s the right time for a review, provided it’s not just looking for reasons to part ways with Harf.
We have had a couple of competitive seasons but we’re really off the pace in comparison to the successful clubs. The review should examine every aspect of our AFLW program including list management, fitness and conditioning, training, gameplan, team selection, culture and coaching. I would be reaching out to former players to find out why they left.
The review should set out a strategy for success and it should then be a matter of determining what personnel are best able to implement the strategy. That may or may not include Harf and it should also identify deficiencies in our list.
I highlighted some of the things that stood out to me.
Our fitness as a group does not appear to be close to some of the 'stronger' clubs. That has been the case for the last couple of seasons.
Our game plan worked very well when we had the personnel to run it, not so great these last couple of years. It definitely needs some work.
Other clubs have had their players knock back large offers to play at a successful club. That needs to be us. I want to hear again that 'nobody leaves Carlton by choice'.
Other clubs have had their players knock back large offers to play at a successful club. That needs to be us. I want to hear again that 'nobody leaves Carlton by choice'.
But there is a reason why that is happening / has happened, and as a club it's a path we have chosen not to participate in as it's very very short term.
When it goes sour at those club's, and they basically have to compromise their football for it to not go sour, it'll go sour big time!
@LP I don’t think that we’ve been as thorough with our AFLW player vetting as we could have been … and that’s understandable given the infancy of the competition. However, we should be moving closer to the exhaustive process of the men’s recruitment. Hopefully, the review will address that.
Harf is about to be announced as the new lead broadcaster on RSN, I suspect that is a sign of change at Carlton.
They want a full time coach, Harf wasnt able to do it.
The report, as summarised by Sayers, is critical of the coaching and I suspect that Harf would have been moved on even if he was able to give a full time commitment.
Sayers' summary seems to gel with our results over the last couple of seasons and, although I liked Harf as a coach, it's time for a change.
Let's get a woman coach.
What's Daisy Pearce up to...she has some coaching credentials. ;)
We know how these things end. ::)
Thank you for your service Daniel.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1258230?fbclid=IwAR39uwpP82skUnIZuk45KAjEYlgCHWe_LMizVQqmLZtbUIgz-bFhby-e5YQ
It's taken the club 6 weeks to work out a way to word their press release to announce what we all knew. Coach is gone.
In this instance, citing that he cannot perform the role in a full time manner that is required from a senior coach going forward.
Long press release that cites no additional changes.....but it at least looks like they have upped their PR game.
Harf is about to be announced as the new lead broadcaster on RSN, I suspect that is a sign of change at Carlton.
What are this Saturday's Tattslotto numbers?
It's taken the club 6 weeks to work out a way to word their press release to announce what we all knew. Coach is gone.
In this instance, citing that he cannot perform the role in a full time manner that is required from a senior coach going forward.
Long press release that cites no additional changes.....but it at least looks like they have upped their PR game.
I don't see anything sinister in this outcome (of the review) and resultant change.
I think Harf gave his best with what he had, but with increased professionalism required in the W competition it's pretty logical that a full-time senior coach is required. Balancing 2 demanding careers can only see 1 suffer (or both!).
Harf is a very good media performer and I wish him loadsa luck... A career choice with a better future than as a senior coach!
Now to find a senior coach for the gals with strong leadership credentials.
The report, as summarised by Sayers, is critical of the coaching and I suspect that Harf would have been moved on even if he was able to give a full time commitment.
Sayers' summary seems to gel with our results over the last couple of seasons and, although I liked Harf as a coach, it's time for a change.
I was being polite
Let's get a woman coach.
What's Daisy Pearce up to...she has some coaching credentials. ;)
I would chase Choco Williams, brilliant developer, the girls would seriously benefit from his famous "kicking classes".
I don't see anything sinister in this outcome (of the review) and resultant change.
I think Harf gave his best with what he had, but with increased professionalism required in the W competition it's pretty logical that a full-time senior coach is required. Balancing 2 demanding careers can only see 1 suffer (or both!).
Harf is a very good media performer and I wish him loadsa luck... A career choice with a better future than as a senior coach!
Now to find a senior coach for the gals with strong leadership credentials.
Choco Williams for mine.
Choco Williams for mine.
An interesting selection. I wonder if he'd be interested?
Let's get a woman coach.
What's Daisy Pearce up to...she has some coaching credentials. ;)
Signed on as an assistant at Geelong for 2 years.
An interesting selection. I wonder if he'd be interested?
One can only ask.
Signed on as an assistant at Geelong for 2 years.
Mens or womens?
(Can we perhaps merge the two threads relating to this)
Mens or womens?
(Can we perhaps merge the two threads relating to this)
Sorted. ;)
Options....
Get Lauren Arnell back? She is currently PA coach.
I'd be looking at Peta Searle. She was an assistant at AFL (mens) level before becoming St. Kilda AFLW head coach for 7 years. She departed to join the bombers in a part time coaching development role (some kind of Robert Walls/Brendan Bolton thing??)
She has credibility, passion for the game and plenty of experience.
I'd be looking at Kara Antonio from Freo. She's just retired and was a playing coach at Freo last season (forwards). Freo captain since they've been in the comp, AA, leading goalkicker, B+F etc etc.
I doubt you'd pry Daisy Pearce away from Geelongs coaching ranks, but i'd certainly be asking the question there too.
Options....
Get Lauren Arnell back? She is currently PA coach.
I'd be looking at Peta Searle. She was an assistant at AFL (mens) level before becoming St. Kilda AFLW head coach for 7 years. She departed to join the bombers in a part time coaching development role (some kind of Robert Walls/Brendan Bolton thing??)
She has credibility, passion for the game and plenty of experience.
I'd be looking at Kara Antonio from Freo. She's just retired and was a playing coach at Freo last season (forwards). Freo captain since they've been in the comp, AA, leading goalkicker, B+F etc etc.
I doubt you'd pry Daisy Pearce away from Geelongs coaching ranks, but i'd certainly be asking the question there too.
It'd be interesting to know the money that's being offered.
If it's to be a full time position you would think it would be more than Harford was making.
Just using Pearce as an example.
I see it's the Geelong men's side she's assisting with.
A part of that apparently has to do with the AFL accelerated coaching accreditation which allows for a bit of cap relief and guarantees the 'would be' coach some tenure.
In Pearce's case she would probably prefer that option.
I guess the unknowns are these...
Would a full time senior WAFL coach earn more than an assistant coach at AFL level?
The tenure would certainly be guaranteed, the new coach would get at least two years, probably more.
We're after a full timer...Does Daisy plan to continue with her media commitments...an assistants job would probably allow that, not so much the full time coach.
Searle sounds like a reasonably good option with that experience with AFL sides.
It's early day for these roles.
In ten years time we'll have a good bit more experience to choose from.
It doesn't have to be a woman, but it would be good to see more of them gaining the experience, doing their time and getting good results.
I had a woman coach in my sporty days. She was probably the best in the business in her time, especially with the females she coached.
Maybe Harf was only offered part time money ?
Not much point if the club tried to spin a version, the bloke they kyboshed works in the media fulltime, he's now front row for RSN, so the club can't hope to compete on airtime or focus.
Hopefully Harf accepts the fulltime coaching gig was mandatory and he goes quietly, we don't want to shoot what girls we have left in the foot with a badly managed exit.
Unfortunately, Harf had to go. Over the last couple of years we've started the season very slowly, only being really competitive after losing two or three games. Our fitness levels have not been good enough and our game style required players we no longer had.
That said, he wasn't a bad coach when we had the cattle. In his 1st 2 seasons we were challengers.
Our new coach, whoever it might be, at least will have the full year to get the players he/she wants and the time to develop them. Harf didn't have any time to develop the last for the last season and it showed. Having a full timer will probably help that.
I'm not sure whose fault our lack of fitness was, but we really have to work on that. We can't run out of juice in last quarters like we did in the last couple of seasons.
Unfortunately, Harf had to go. Over the last couple of years we've started the season very slowly, only being really competitive after losing two or three games. Our fitness levels have not been good enough and our game style required players we no longer had.
That said, he wasn't a bad coach when we had the cattle. In his 1st 2 seasons we were challengers.
Our new coach, whoever it might be, at least will have the full year to get the players he/she wants and the time to develop them. Harf didn't have any time to develop the last for the last season and it showed. Having a full timer will probably help that.
I'm not sure whose fault our lack of fitness was, but we really have to work on that. We can't run out of juice in last quarters like we did in the last couple of seasons.
Fitness thing comes down to a couple of simple things that are both out of his control.
1. Injuries.
2. List size.
With only 30 on the list and 21 playing each week, you don't have much leeway on who to select. You either play injured players, or play 18yo kids fresh of the draft. Either way, you are playing a player that is not up to AFLW fitness standard. If you lose a few battle hardened bodies every year, which we we doing year on year, you can't simply replace them......especially when one happens to be AFLW MVP, or AFLW leading goalkicker etc.
I feel for Half. He could clearly coach as he got us into a GF. But he's been pushing **it up hill since.
Given we don't have a CBA, a season length, season start, draft date or anything, perhaps its in his best interests to go now and we try and use this 'dead' time to set up the AFLW side of things for the long term.
Unfortunately, Harf had to go. Over the last couple of years we've started the season very slowly, only being really competitive after losing two or three games. Our fitness levels have not been good enough and our game style required players we no longer had.
That said, he wasn't a bad coach when we had the cattle. In his 1st 2 seasons we were challengers.
Our new coach, whoever it might be, at least will have the full year to get the players he/she wants and the time to develop them. Harf didn't have any time to develop the last for the last season and it showed. Having a full timer will probably help that.
I'm not sure whose fault our lack of fitness was, but we really have to work on that. We can't run out of juice in last quarters like we did in the last couple of seasons.
Crash of the few games I saw, our girls looked clueless. They would hand ball or kick to team mates meters away in a worse position or under more pressure. Skills wise I reckon our mob is the worst in the comp, that's all on Harf I'm afraid.
Harf had to go purely on the departing talent.
Half the job is keeping everyone invested.
If they don't want to be here year in and year out thats an issue at coach level and it might very well be about being available for his players.
Harf had to go purely on the departing talent.
Nah, I blame that on the half ass rules the AFL set up which allowed the new clubs to pilfer the crap out of the established club like ours. Given the pittance the girls are paid (again an AFL park up), big offers from the new clubs were impossible to refuse.
Nah, I blame that on the half ass rules the AFL set up which allowed the new clubs to pilfer the crap out of the established club like ours. Given the pittance the girls are paid (again an AFL park up), big offers from the new clubs were impossible to refuse.
Shorter careers is another factor that encourages AFLW players to chase dollars a little more than their AFL counterparts.
That said, I think Harf probably was instrumental in some players leaving. He tried to impose some standards; if you're not sure you want to be here, don't let the door hit your butt on the way out.
Fans seem to be really struggling with how different AFLW is in regards to professionalism or the lack of it. Very few girls will stray when they have a chance to play with mates or for the club they supported as children. It's having your cake and eating, which seems to be a perennial problem with professional women's team sports.
Sure I'll get lambasted as sexist, misogynous, etc., etc.., whatever!
It wouldn't be a normal Carlton season without a coach sacking.
I'm glad to see Harford is prepared (at least in part) to call a spade a spade.
It wouldn't be a normal Carlton season without a coach sacking.
I'm glad to see Harford is prepared (at least in part) to call a spade a spade.
A little "unclassy" if you ask me. Despite our long list of coaching casualties over the years, none have gone out swinging, they have all stayed classy despite how they may have been treated. Can't say the same for Harf, having said that he is in the media so it was to be expected I guess.
Now Brett Munro has been kyboshed, will there be anybody left standing?
A little "unclassy" if you ask me. Despite our long list of coaching casualties over the years, none have gone out swinging, they have all stayed classy despite how they may have been treated. Can't say the same for Harf, having said that he is in the media so it was to be expected I guess.
I think that Harf's criticism of the program has some merit and shows that he was invested in the players. His comment, "I'm still not 100 per cent convinced of what high performance in a part-time program actually is." strikes at the crux of the matter. The AFL limits the amount of training AFLW players can do but they are expected to be high performance athletes and fitness and coaching staff are expected to have their players ready to go at the drop of a hat. I agree with Harf that a review of the AFLW is due.
The bottom line is that our performances have been disappointing over the last couple of seasons. The predations of expansion clubs, failure to retain players and poor recruitment choices have all played a part. At times, our ball movement and execution was outstanding, and then we'd lose momentum and crash and burn. It was reminiscent of our AFL team under Teague. Harf had to go, particularly with his other commitments.
Patricia Kinnersly needs to lift her game and drive the AFLW program with the same vigor that's now applied to the AFL program.
We were probably unlucky not to win the flag a couple of seasons ago. However our game style didn't improve, we seemed to lack pace and our ball use and overall skills seemed to be sub-par. We became a very young side and our intent was often up and down, both week to week and within games. AFLW really should be a 17 Game season with a few more players on the list if they want the professionalism they are talking about. Also the Club needs to invest in the VFLW side as well. The Club has very good resources and training facilities but needs to develop a culture where Carlton is a Club of destination.
Having a senior player have a stinking season and **** off, giving the club a clip at every opportunity didn't help unity. Then blue-chip senior players get ripped from the side by parasitic clubs without compensation. Hard to win games when you simply don't have the cattle. He was never going to survive the review but he was on a hiding to nothing, he had zero chance.
Harf had to go purely on the departing talent.
Half the job is keeping everyone invested.
If they don't want to be here year in and year out thats an issue at coach level and it might very well be about being available for his players.
Clearly something wasn't right there.
Having a senior player have a stinking season and **** off, giving the club a clip at every opportunity didn't help unity. Then blue-chip senior players get ripped from the side by parasitic clubs without compensation. Hard to win games when you simply don't have the cattle. He was never going to survive the review but he was on a hiding to nothing, he had zero chance.
Which player are you talking about. There is a few that could fit that bill.
I'm not sure Half going will solve any problems at the club. The only hope is they realise (which they seem to have already) that they need to take the comp more seriously, and that should highlight that the coach (now gone) was not the problem to begin with.
I think that in their review they concluded that “there was confusion and lack of understanding of the gameplan”
On the face of it, that’s on the coach.
Problem was there were few old hands and too many kids so you’d sort of expect that game knowledge would be down, or you should expect that.
I think that in their review they concluded that “there was confusion and lack of understanding of the gameplan”
On the face of it, that’s on the coach.
Problem was there were few old hands and too many kids so you’d sort of expect that game knowledge would be down, or you should expect that.
Yep, and as Abe often quoted from Matthew (Bible), 'No man can serve two masters.' And when both masters are particularly demanding in terms of time and commitment, you're on a hiding to nothing.
The new regime at the good ship PP, has only been at the helm for a year and change, and they inherited a cot-case on many levels. The first priority was to fix the blokes comp, now to fix the gals comp.
The problem is that up until now it's been a bit like trying to make a jigsaw when people keep stealing your pieces.
The task should be a bit less difficult with a full set of teams and a reduction in movement (although that may still continue for a year ot two).
A full time coach will further add to that stability.
In some respects we're at 'Year One', so give it a bit of time.
The problem is that up until now it's been a bit like trying to make a jigsaw when people keep stealing your pieces.
The task should be a bit less difficult with a full set of teams and a reduction in movement (although that may still continue for a year ot two).
A full time coach will further add to that stability.
In some respects we're at 'Year One', so give it a bit of time.
Its worse than that though. The puzzle itself keeps changing!
The fact you can only contract players for MAX 2 years means you can't plan a team or build around a player or players, because 2 years later they could all be gone! We have been leaking players for a while because we were good at picking them and developing them and its come back to bite us.
Its worse than that though. The puzzle itself keeps changing!
The fact you can only contract players for MAX 2 years means you can't plan a team or build around a player or players, because 2 years later they could all be gone! We have been leaking players for a while because we were good at picking them and developing them and its come back to bite us.
Yep, rather than being penalised for adopting AFLW late, rock spiders like the Cheats have been rewarded, coming in late and picking the eyes out of developed talent.
Our club, in partnership with the Feds and State poured money in developing Princes Park as the developing headquarters of AFLW. Then years later the Cheats who ignored AFLW cry poor and get funding to bring a new facility up to gender neutral scratch!
Of course this is added to the already more complex environment that is evident in managing AFLW lists, because many of the girls seem incapable of checking personal relationships or conflicts at the door, this will always leave them in a semi-professional state. You can't have your cake and eat it, you either get the big dollars and work with who you are told to work with, or you pick and choose and accept less.
The lesson is next time the AFL float a new project, run away, let the others do the hard work first!
I don't know how much noise we make about it at an official level.
Do we just sit back and take it.
We had a review.
From a quick reading of the of the findings it seems as though the club is wearing all the repsonsibility for the position and laying no blame at all on the structures and restrictions put in place by the expanding WAFL competition.
As a result of that it then became a matter of which personnel at the club wore the blame and needed to be replaced.
But we always knew that was the objective. ;)
Funny, normally early adopters are 'first in best dressed', but in the AfLW universe normal rules don't apply. Come on late and get concessions appears to be a strategy as well.
Funny, normally early adopters are 'first in best dressed', but in the AfLW universe normal rules don't apply. Come on late and get concessions appears to be a strategy as well.
I don't know if you are commenting on the recent announcements or if your timing is just a coincidence.
In any event, the AFLW have announced that the 4 new teams that raped and pillaged everyone last year get further concessions.
You may remember we lost Prespakis and Gee to the Bombers and as compensation we got to KEEP our first round pick.
Well it appears that those same teams can steal more players from teams. This time the amount of players depends on your finishing position. Due to us coming in the lower ladder region, we can only lose 1 additional player.
The 14 remaining clubs have limits on the number of players they can lose via PSP:
Clubs that finished 1-4 post-finals (Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, North Melbourne): no more than five players
Clubs that finished 5th-8th post-finals (Collingwood, Richmond, Western Bulldogs, Geelong): no more than two players
Clubs that finished 9th-18th (Gold Coast, GWS, Fremantle, St Kilda, Carlton, West Coast); no more than one player
Nothing of note coming from our camp as yet, but Chloe Molloy has jumped ship to Sydney under these rules.
Talk of Jamie Lambert and Steph Chiocci heading to the Saints in a trade for Tarni White as well.
I don't know if you are commenting on the recent announcements or if your timing is just a coincidence.
In any event, the AFLW have announced that the 4 new teams that raped and pillaged everyone last year get further concessions.
You may remember we lost Prespakis and Gee to the Bombers and as compensation we got to KEEP our first round pick.
Well it appears that those same teams can steal more players from teams. This time the amount of players depends on your finishing position. Due to us coming in the lower ladder region, we can only lose 1 additional player.
Nothing of note coming from our camp as yet, but Chloe Molloy has jumped ship to Sydney under these rules.
Talk of Jamie Lambert and Steph Chiocci heading to the Saints in a trade for Tarni White as well.
Steph should come to Carlton...or at least to the forum :D
Steph should come to Carlton...or at least to the forum :D
......again
Reckon there was more fans watching a workday pre season mens practice match then the AFLW crowds in finals!
Think about that for a second.
Tells how well AFLW is going.
Reckon there was more fans watching a workday pre season mens practice match then the AFLW crowds in finals!
Think about that for a second.
Tells how well AFLW is going.
Reckon you are wrong.
Reckon there was more fans watching a workday pre season mens practice match then the AFLW crowds in finals!
Think about that for a second.
Tells how well AFLW is going.
AFLW is unwatchable for me at present, especially our mob.
Anyone who watches AFLW hoping to see an AFL contest is going to be disappointed. It’s a different game and it’s still evolving its own gamestyle.
I occasionally watch netball and I’m always impressed by the athleticism and skill of the netballers. It’s a nuanced game and I don’t think blokes could play it as well as women do. The same goes for women’s basketball and hockey; the rules are the same but the way women play is different but no less skilful or entertaining.
LP has been banging on about this for a while and he’s right; AFLW coaches need to build their game plans around the attributes and limitations of their players, not impose a version of AFL footy.
Harf was almost there, but we need a coach who understands women’s footy from personal experience and can come up with a winning formula for our list.
I enjoyed watching our AFLW team over the first couple of seasons but our games became increasingly difficult to watch. In part that’s down to the way the competition has grown and the bias towards the newbies at the expense of the foundation clubs. It’s also down to strange list management decisions, unrealistic expectations and limited talent.
It’s an evolutionary competition and it should only get better … provided the newer clubs have to fend for themselves.
Well said DJC.
I’ve watched a handful of womens cricket games and that’s not a bad contest.
Certainly better than what our AFLW team dished up in 2022.
Hopefully we can get some development going on in 2023.
But it begs the question why watch and comment on a sport that you’re plainly not interested in ?
I don’t like tennis, I don’t watch it and I (rarely 😎) bother telling people how much I dislike it 🤣
I get the feeling that some who don’t like womens sport also don’t like them in politics and often in any other pursuit other than a “traditional” role at home… I am not saying that I think that’s the case in this thread, but it’s crossed my mind whilst listening to real world people discussing it.
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But it begs the question why watch and comment on a sport that you’re plainly not interested in ?
I don’t like tennis, I don’t watch it and I (rarely 😎) bother telling people how much I dislike it 🤣
I get the feeling that some who don’t like womens sport also don’t like them in politics and often in any other pursuit other than a “traditional” role at home… I am not saying that I think that’s the case in this thread, but it’s crossed my mind whilst listening to real world people discussing it.
Social media has amplified the opinionated and reactionary aspects of contemporary culture.
The reasons could be as you say, or it could simply be that they find it boring. There are plenty of AFL men's games (not Carlton, but in general) that I switch off well before half time.
Well said DJC.
I’ve watched a handful of womens cricket games and that’s not a bad contest.
Certainly better than what our AFLW team dished up in 2022.
Hopefully we can get some development going on in 2023.
But it begs the question why watch and comment on a sport that you’re plainly not interested in ?
I don’t like tennis, I don’t watch it and I (rarely 😎) bother telling people how much I dislike it 🤣
I get the feeling that some who don’t like womens sport also don’t like them in politics and often in any other pursuit other than a “traditional” role at home… I am not saying that I think that’s the case in this thread, but it’s crossed my mind whilst listening to real world people discussing it.
I watched it at the start, I didn't mind it, I thought the players went very hard, skills were rusty but would get better.
I think the issues I have with it (ie I find it unwatchable) is purely due to the way the game is administrated. The players are remunerated nowhere near well enough, they are not professional (ie they have to hold normal jobs to live) and IMO it shows on the field (to me at least). When Livingstone and her cronies get fair dinkum with it, it will be reflected on field.
Interesting to here comments from Cook at our AGM, he stated that they are going to do exactly what they have done with AFL program, best people possible, he talked about world class facilities and people. So as a club, we are getting fair dinkum and investing money in our AFLW program which is great. That needs to be matched (at the very least) by the AFL (to give the comp and a boost or shot in the arm no pun intended). To be 110% crystal clear, my gripe with it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there is a W at the end of AFL.
The problems with AFLW are with the way the competition is run as much as anything.
There seems to be 2 steps forward, 1 step back.....every year.
The fact we don't have a season length, start or anything else right now is nothing short of laughable.
Money is increasing for players.
Coaches are being forced to become full time.
Players are now able to nominate for the national draft, rather than just their own state (which is still an option if they choose) but its getting closer to the way it should be.
However, until there can be some kind of long term certainty, we will suffer through more of the same.
As an example....
- Player can only be contracted for max 2 years.
- Season length is unknown
- Rules are still able to be changed for the upcoming season.
- New clubs are able to poach players from opposition clubs without any compensation.
So....how is a coach able to get a game plan built around players when they don't know who those players are, if the existing players will even be there come the start of the season and no long term certainty that they will be there 2 years from now.
On top of that, the season is so short that there is no time to tweak a game plan and turn a season around if you get it wrong (or even just injuries) early on in the year.
What needs to happen is...
1. Truly national draft like the mens, no more zones.
2. No cap on length of contracts to players and coaches
3. No more poaching of players at all.......or at the very least, get some adequate compensation.
4. Increased pay to the point that players don't NEED employment elsewhere.
5. Certainty around the length of the seasons in coming years
6. An even draw/fixture of the back of the length of the season decided - go back to conferences to make it fair if required.
7. Certainty around the rules for the coming years.
THEN and only then, can you actually have a competition that is deemed a professional competition.
Until then, we are simply impersonating one.
https://www.womens.afl/news/118923/
New coach. All the best Bucks.
https://www.womens.afl/news/118923/
New coach. All the best Bucks.
I can't say I know much about him, for someone that has been around so long he almost invisible to me!
I can't say I know much about him, for someone that has been around so long he almost invisible to me!
I hope i'm wrong, but this wreaks of desperation to me.
It looks like we spent months searching for a new coach and in the end have gone, hey that bloke under our nose....guess we'll give it to him.
So why now?
Well, you wouldn't know it, but its the AFLW draft tonight. Probably should have a coach around to call the players and say welcome to the club.
You look at his history, and apart from moving the cones around at training a couple of times, it appears he has had very little to do with womens football. How can you build a game plan around a game that is (somewhat) foreign to you?
How do you fix/build a good culture with a group of girls if you've never dealt with them before?
I wish him well, but i think he is destined to fail and has been thrown in the deep end.
This could very well be an inspired appointment.
Matthew Buck may not be well known in coaching circles but he has a decent CV without being too enmeshed in men’s footy.
Understanding that the game is different and requires different structures and plans is the key to AFLW coaching. We were never going to shake an established AFLW coach loose so appointing someone who gets the AFLW, albeit only recently, is the next best.
Buck’s skills work with the AFLW was fortuitous but it also began a rapport, and that is so important. Harf had a strong rapport with the playing group and any new coach could struggle to get the team on board. Buck has already made significant progress there.
I’m pleased about his focus on skills. We have a lot of raw talent and honing that talent has to be a positive.
Buck spoke about being part of a team and I hope that the club goes all out to give him the support he will need.
A “rebuild” in the AFLW is new territory but that’s effectively what Buck has ahead of him. It’s certainly going to be a challenge. Let’s hope he’s up for it.
He was an appointment that came from within right? If so my only criticism of that is the report on the AFLW program was scathing and if he was part of it, he was part of the problem (even in a small way). That doesn't sit right with me,
I reckon there is probably a real desire from the club to see this project successful.
They've had a review so they will have to be seen to having achieved some progress from this exercise
Buck will be the face of this. but you can bet he'll be given heaps of support.