Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: crashlander on March 23, 2023, 10:13:30 am

Title: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: crashlander on March 23, 2023, 10:13:30 am
I probably won't get to look at this thread until Saturday; life is busy at the moment.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Mav on March 23, 2023, 10:12:37 pm
Extrapolating Charlie’s scoring so far gives him 92 goals. Maybe a ton this year?

Man, does Jeremy Cameron ever miss? You wouldn’t bet on it no matter where he marks in F50.

Acres much better this week and Hollands justifying his selection. Ed good again. McGovern still rusty but you can see  what he’ll add to the team when his marking comes back and his decision-making settles down. Lewis Young would have gained a lot of confidence out of that game, especially with the contested mark at the end of the game to ice it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: spf on March 23, 2023, 10:14:57 pm
Can we swap Jeremy for Mitch?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: townsendcalling on March 23, 2023, 10:16:34 pm
In the last 2 minutes, the leaders led.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: laj on March 23, 2023, 10:17:16 pm
Two contenders, I'll take the 6pts and run.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: laj on March 23, 2023, 10:19:15 pm
I was worried throughout as Geelong always fight back from tough positions no matter who they play. Holding on in a tight one will be immense for the players.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2023, 10:19:55 pm
Two contenders, I'll take the 6pts and run.

A contender and a pretender for me....always love a beaten Coach Scotts presser.. cant wait for the excuses...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: townsendcalling on March 23, 2023, 10:20:07 pm
Thank you to Jack Martin and his calf....   Pittonet was very influential!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2023, 10:20:54 pm
I was worried throughout as Geelong always fight back from tough positions no matter who they play. Holding on in a tight one will be immense for the players.
No Joel Selwood starting to bite....
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2023, 10:21:45 pm
Thank you to Jack Martin and his calf....   Pittonet was very influential!
I'll pay that...Pittonet should have played last week too...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 23, 2023, 10:35:54 pm
It's only one game but.... the ability to hold on after letting the last few slip was outstanding.
Congratulations to the coaches and the leaders 👏🏼
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 23, 2023, 10:36:38 pm
Well, that’s going to take the wind out of some sails; expect not many posts in this thread 😇
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Mav on March 23, 2023, 10:36:54 pm
Time to bank a few wins in the next few games: Giants (A), North, Crows (A), Saints, WCE (A). We should win most of them and could win all. The Giants and Crows are the tough ones. The problem for the Giants is they’ve lost half their centre square starters and it’ll take them time to adjust.

We should have between 4.5 and 6.5 wins by round 7. Not a bad start. Unfortunately, we only play the Hawks once, so we’re a game behind those teams that play them twice.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: bratblue on March 23, 2023, 10:38:44 pm
Having a strong Pitt taking on Hawkins and beating him in those boundary line throwins in the last quarter helped us enormously.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 23, 2023, 10:38:59 pm
Pitto and TDK, every week, that is all.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2023, 10:41:59 pm
It's only one game but.... the ability to hold on after letting the last few slip was outstanding.
Congratulations to the coaches and the leaders 👏🏼
Leadership was important, thought Cripps was very good and Ed really surprised with his game.
As I said I thought Geelong missed Selwood in this area and they dont look like as assured without him to me..
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: shawny on March 23, 2023, 10:47:19 pm
I admit I was not confident and even while leading in the last it felt like it was the same mistakes occurring again. But reckon we got an ounce of luck when Bowes missed from 15 out which would have made it under a goal with 5 plus minutes left we could have easily wobbled with that much pressure but that miss allowed us to reset and from then on we looked more settled.
Still tons to improve on but a win is a win and without Walsh and hewitt it’s even better. I hate the cats so any win against them is a good one.

Another positive is I dont believe we are anywhere near our best in what we can do yet even at this standard against decent opposition in the first 2 rounds we are still very tough to beat which is a good sign.

We are a still building and if we can slowly chalk up enough wins to make finals we could be a very dangerous team if we all click at the right time of the year.

Off to have my celebratory scotch.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: pinot on March 23, 2023, 10:47:41 pm
Having a view on the wing all game I thought Ed Curnow was BOG
he was in every contest you expect Walshy to be in.
Cant wait to get Walshy and George back.
What a great Win.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: spf on March 23, 2023, 10:51:16 pm
Just finished the ladder predictor. I have us making the Prelim.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: bratblue on March 23, 2023, 10:54:40 pm
Just finished the ladder predictor. I have us making the Prelim.

That all
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: spf on March 23, 2023, 11:08:51 pm
That all

Yes, so far.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 23, 2023, 11:10:30 pm
Just finished the ladder predictor. I have us making the Prelim.

Lid off then? 😄
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2023, 11:13:44 pm
Just finished the ladder predictor. I have us making the Prelim.
I'll be happy if we can back up and beat GWS and make this win count.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 23, 2023, 11:16:33 pm
Our 3rd was quality. Being at the ground, you could feel their confidence grow and you could tell they smelt blood. Nearly farked it again in the last but held on for a good win against quality (dont care what people say, Geel will be there abouts when the whips and cracking).
How many farken;
- smoothered kicks
- dropped sitters (thats you Gov). The bloke is blind, Im convinced.

I apologise unreservedly for the crap I have said about Cameron. Watching him live, his workrate and accuracy is off the charts.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 23, 2023, 11:19:44 pm
Crippa fired this week and his leadership really stood out. I was impressed with the mids in general play. Particularly as we didn't dominate the clearances.

The Ed Charlie gig is really fun to watch. Speaking of Ed. He turned back the clock. Most impressed 👏🏼

The backs were rock solid again with some great defensive efforts from the wingers. Acres played like we hoped he would and Dutchy is a ripper. He had more ks than anyone at one stage.

Charlie was Charlie while his H brother played a game winning role in the last 5m. The smalls were on point. The pressure was great all over the ground.
I love Adam Saad - thanks drugcheats.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 23, 2023, 11:21:18 pm
I'll be happy if we can back up and beat GWS and make this win count.

That's more like it. Lid on.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Micky0 on March 23, 2023, 11:29:31 pm
I'll be happy if we can back up and beat GWS and make this win count.
This.
All the hard work of the past two weeks needs to be solidified with a strong win against teams we should beat. No excuses. The Adelaide game from last year still hurts me.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Macca37 on March 23, 2023, 11:32:00 pm
That win will give the players a real boost in self confidence.   I was impressed with Acres.  He showed a cool head under pressure and his disposal was very good.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 23, 2023, 11:41:18 pm
That win will give the players a real boost in self confidence.   I was impressed with Acres.  He showed a cool head under pressure and his disposal was very good.

Re: Acres
Yes he was. Let's put last week down to debutante nerves
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: northernblue on March 23, 2023, 11:47:47 pm
TDK getting more expensive by the week…
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2023, 11:51:08 pm
That win will give the players a real boost in self confidence.   I was impressed with Acres.  He showed a cool head under pressure and his disposal was very good.
Acres went at 88% Disposal Efficiency....thats elite and had 11 contested possessions, cant ask much more and and vs high class opposition.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: laj on March 23, 2023, 11:52:55 pm
This looks good while it lasts. On top of the ladder!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Thryleon on March 23, 2023, 11:53:12 pm
Small durdin was very important and is quickly becoming my favourite unappreciated player.

Fisher needs to do more.  I think playing him forward doesn't suit him.

Memo to MC.  never, ever sub jsos off if he's fine.  We looked a different forward line without him, and LOB added nothing in his absence.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 23, 2023, 11:56:36 pm
Small durdin was very important and is quickly becoming my favourite unappreciated player.

Fisher needs to do more.  I think playing him forward doesn't suit him.

Memo to MC.  never, ever sub jsos off if he's fine.  We looked a different forward line without him, and LOB added nothing in his absence.
Good call Thry...Durdin only had the 8 touches but for some reason we look a lot better with him in the team and I reckon Owies, Motlop all work better together when he is in the 23. I wouldnt go back to Martin......
Fisher got a bit of ball but I thought his disposal was just so so and he needs to impact more when he gets the ball.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 24, 2023, 12:18:12 am
Chris Scott in denial as usual when they lose and just talked carp for about 10 mins, listening to him we didnt really win the game it was more about Geelong losing it and the players they have banged up and injured. Was asked how his midfield went but glossed over that even though we have Hewett and Walsh both out.
When asked was he concerned about two losses in similar fashion where teams ran the ball into their forward line with high possession numbers he just said that depends on whether you rate Collingwood and Carlton...
Not once did he really credit us for the win and say they lost to the better team on the night....
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 24, 2023, 12:47:05 am
Chris Scott in denial as usual when they lose and just talked carp for about 10 mins, listening to him we didnt really win the game it was more about Geelong losing it and the players they have banged up and injured. Was asked how his midfield went but glossed over that even though we have Hewett and Walsh both out.
When asked was he concerned about two losses in similar fashion where teams ran the ball into their forward line with high possession numbers he just said that depends on whether you rate Collingwood and Carlton...
Not once did he really credit us for the win and say they lost to the better team on the night....


I didn't expect anything else from him. It was all about me... As usual. He's a sore loser and would never credit the novice coach and his players. After all they won by accident 😳
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: RiverRat on March 24, 2023, 01:07:07 am
Good call Thry...Durdin only had the 8 touches but for some reason we look a lot better with him in the team and I reckon Owies, Motlop all work better together when he is in the 23. I wouldn't go back to Martin......

Durdin had a much bigger impact than the 8 touches suggest - his acceleration is much more explosive than the other smalls and he creates much more pressure on man and ball - the three mentioned provide a varied and effective combination.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: PaulP on March 24, 2023, 06:18:13 am
How good is Adam Saad ?

Thank you to :
- Charlie Curnow - 5.2 in a 12 goal game.
- Harry McKay for those last minute marks.
- Jack Bowes for missing.
- Tyson Stengle for the 50M penalty.
- the umpires for a well officiated game
- the football gods for the 4 points and no injuries.

A super effort by the boys.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: BluePhantom on March 24, 2023, 07:18:16 am
Don't mind close games but hate winning close games due to giving up a bigger margin due to silly mistakes.
Gov is taking Jones' role of being that frustrating player. Great one moment then WTF the next.
Great win by the club. Hate the Pussys.
Still need to work on goal kicking. Has been an issue for a loooong time.
Don't like this continually bombing it into the forward line. Yes it has its moments but not ALL the time. Especially when the small forwards are not setup around the contest, many a time the ball came to ground and there was not a Blue jumper in sight.
Lots to work on but I love the fight.
Finally our team has a ticker.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 07:20:17 am
Finally our team has a ticker.
Particularly in the third, they really beat Geel up, one of the best qtrs I have seen in a long time.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 24, 2023, 07:58:23 am
I'll be happy if we can back up and beat GWS and make this win count.
Although back to back would be nice, I think there will be a few sore lads coming out of last nights game and I'd prefer we look after them than take a risk, it's a long season.

Let's get back to making home games a fortress and throw in the odd away win.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 24, 2023, 08:04:08 am
Compared to Rnd 1 last nights game was at another level, skills were better, the opposition was better, we were better.

You can see why we will look back on Rnd 1 and feel it was a lost opportunity.

I feel Pitto coming in has shown the way for the ruck situation, his mix-n-match with TDK just works better in my opinion, you can clearly see the value Pitto brings when you need some heavy duty grunt work to put the brakes on the opposition.

Durdin coming in made a difference for Owies, Fisher and Motlop, that little bit extra run matters, Motlop getting up the field further also worked well, all were better this week.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 08:09:57 am
Chris Scott in denial as usual when they lose and just talked carp for about 10 mins, listening to him we didnt really win the game it was more about Geelong losing it and the players they have banged up and injured. Was asked how his midfield went but glossed over that even though we have Hewett and Walsh both out.
When asked was he concerned about two losses in similar fashion where teams ran the ball into their forward line with high possession numbers he just said that depends on whether you rate Collingwood and Carlton...
Not once did he really credit us for the win and say they lost to the better team on the night....

I always find his pressers very measured and insightful. I didn't get the feeling he was sooking or anything like that, he was asked a lot of specific questions about his players and he answered them. They are a good, confident side who is well coached and will be around the mark at the pointy end.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 24, 2023, 08:26:11 am
I always find his pressers very measured and insightful. I didn't get the feeling he was sooking or anything like that, he was asked a lot of specific questions about his players and he answered them. They are a good, confident side who is well coached and will be around the mark at the pointy end.
I see him different, won't admit when the other team were better and refuses to accept reality when they are in trouble.
Imo they are struggling and lack leadership and have a tired midfield  which consists of oldies and then kids but not much in the middle.
Both us and Collingwood have knocked them over with the same game plan and he hadn't been able to find the answers apart from saying it's all ok.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: blueday on March 24, 2023, 08:57:25 am
Compared to Rnd 1 last nights game was at another level, skills were better, the opposition was better, we were better.

You can see why we will look back on Rnd 1 and feel it was a lost opportunity.

I feel Pitto coming in has shown the way for the ruck situation, his mix-n-match with TDK just works better in my opinion, you can clearly see the value Pitto brings when you need some heavy duty grunt work to put the brakes on the opposition.

Durdin coming in made a difference for Owies, Fisher and Motlop, that little bit extra run matters, Motlop getting up the field further also worked well, all were better this week.

We must play the two rucks but what does that mean for SOS? Are McGovern and SOS a direct swap, SOS down back as the third tall interceptor and McGovern out?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: pinot on March 24, 2023, 08:59:32 am
We must play the two rucks but what does that mean for SOS? Are McGovern and SOS a direct swap, SOS down back as the third tall interceptor and McGovern out?

Yes, very interesting what happens in this space as the season progresses
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Wet Willie on March 24, 2023, 09:22:42 am
Richmond clearly dragged us down to their level last week...

(Head explodes)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 24, 2023, 09:53:07 am
We must play the two rucks but what does that mean for SOS? Are McGovern and SOS a direct swap, SOS down back as the third tall interceptor and McGovern out?

I don't think Jack is in great form at the moment. McGovern needs more game time as his touch is just a bit off . He's missed a fair bit of football, but I think he potentially offers more value if he gets that right.
We understand Jack's been pushed from pillar to post filling multiple roles and we need to cut him some slack.
But I don't think it would hurt to send him back to he VFL for a couple of weeks to get a bit of confidence and form back.
We need to keep both tall rucks.
Not sure about Jack in defence but it's worth a try, maybe first at the lower level.
His strength is probably his versatility and it might add another string to the bow.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 09:57:15 am

Both us and Collingwood have knocked them over with the same game plan and he hadn't been able to find the answers apart from saying it's all ok.
he acknowledged that and said they will look different in 4 weeks time and again at the end of the year. I heard him talk about the coming season during the PS and he stated they would need to be different to 22 otherwise they will get knocked over. They do have some fair key personnel missing so they can't play structurally they way they would have planned for in the PS, the two losses show that. Apart from his coaches box antics/theatrics, he is one of the football people I like listening to when interviewed. Astute, measured but ruthless (just like he played).
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 24, 2023, 10:02:41 am
Compared to Rnd 1 last nights game was at another level, skills were better, the opposition was better, we were better.

You can see why we will look back on Rnd 1 and feel it was a lost opportunity.

I feel Pitto coming in has shown the way for the ruck situation, his mix-n-match with TDK just works better in my opinion, you can clearly see the value Pitto brings when you need some heavy duty grunt work to put the brakes on the opposition.

Durdin coming in made a difference for Owies, Fisher and Motlop, that little bit extra run matters, Motlop getting up the field further also worked well, all were better this week.

The Tigers put more pressure on us and were better than Geelong.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Baggers on March 24, 2023, 10:03:55 am
Important win. Feeds belief. Tested by great system, especially in the final qtr, but responded well. Kids learning important attitudes.

How critical is that terrific forward pressure. Suspect they were challenged during the week to up their work rate, and responded in the best way... especially Owies. Thrilled to see small Durds back. The more games that small Durds, Motlop and Owies can play together the better.

Edward C silenced his critics.

Fisher improved, but is still a concern. JSOS is a worry also (yes, I know... Bambi and all that, but failed marks and a whisker too selfish at times).

Pitto and TDK ...great. Let's not split this duo.

Acres & Hollands... loved their games.

Sheesh, H is quick for a bloke 30ft tall!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LordLucifer on March 24, 2023, 10:09:23 am
Very pleased with the win but I still kept thinking we were going to throw it away in the last. They don't fill me with confidence when it gets tough & tight, thank god McKay took those strong telling marks to slow things down.

I'm not a fan of Pittonet (having said that, he was okay last nite) but how the match committee can actually think we go into a game with TDK as the sole ruck deeply concerns me too. Playing two rucks, regardless of how good they are, gives the team some flexibility and protection for the little guys.

Motlop needs to be taught the 'Stand' rule, time & time again he stood the mark and when the umpire called play on he still stood flat-footed in the belief that he was going to give away a 50m penalty. He let the Cats players just stroll around him when he should have been rushing them to lay a ferocious tackle.

The Durdin-Owies-Motlop plan doesn't work and I doubt it ever will, only play two small fowards in the future please.

Ed Curnow was a surprise, maybe it was just a one-off cameo but it was much needed.

I still feel we are not "there' yet from a playing list perspective. The defence is not too bad, the midfield needs another 1 or 2 solid bodies whilst the forward-line needs another option. The smalls are hit & miss, we don't have any notable mid-sized forwards thus meaning we are relying purely on the two big guys. I am concerned that this makes us two predictable and vulnerable if one of them gets injured.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LordLucifer on March 24, 2023, 10:10:39 am
By the way, Cowan & Hollands are two of the best pick-ups we have made in some years.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Baggers on March 24, 2023, 10:11:20 am
he acknowledged that and said they will look different in 4 weeks time and again at the end of the year. I heard him talk about the coming season during the PS and he stated they would need to be different to 22 otherwise they will get knocked over. They do have some fair key personnel missing so they can't play structurally they way they would have planned for in the PS, the two losses show that. Apart from his coaches box antics/theatrics, he is one of the football people I like listening to when interviewed. Astute, measured but ruthless (just like he played).

Likewise, I thought Chris Scott's post match was fair and measured, though I do think he's far from pleased with their situation... kept criticisms for behind closed doors and went with the longer view approach for the media.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: townsendcalling on March 24, 2023, 10:19:14 am
How good is Adam Saad ?

Thank you to :
- Charlie Curnow - 5.2 in a 12 goal game.
- Harry McKay for those last minute marks.
- Jack Bowes for missing.
- Tyson Stengle for the 50M penalty.
- the umpires for a well officiated game
- the football gods for the 4 points and no injuries.


You forgot one....Thank you to Jack Martin's calf......and welcome Pitto!!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Baggers on March 24, 2023, 10:19:23 am
Motlop needs to be taught the 'Stand' rule, time & time again he stood the mark and when the umpire called play on he still stood flat-footed in the belief that he was going to give away a 50m penalty. He let the Cats players just stroll around him when he should have been rushing them to lay a ferocious tackle.

The Durdin-Owies-Motlop plan doesn't work and I doubt it ever will, only play two small fowards in the future please.

Now Cloven-Hooved One... what I saw from Motlop on the mark was first rate... stands there like a caged tiger ready to pounce and once the umps calls play on... he's off and running.

And as for small Durds, Owies and Motlop together... each offers terrific points of difference in a small forward, all offer (when they're 'on') great pressure. Keep them thar 3 amigos together.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Mav on March 24, 2023, 10:25:58 am
Gov was a major reason behind our success in the first half of season 2022. He has a rare combination of intercept marking, run and adventurous kicking which can open up opposition forward presses. Sure, his marking is rusty at the moment and his decision-making is questionable at times, but both will improve with games under the belt after having little match practice in the preseason. Getting high quality exits out of D50 against a pressure team like the Tigers is pretty much down to Saad and Gov.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 10:33:55 am
Likewise, I thought Chris Scott's post match was fair and measured, though I do think he's far from pleased with their situation... kept criticisms for behind closed doors and went with the longer view approach for the media.
Measured
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 10:36:59 am
Now Cloven-Hooved One... what I saw from Motlop on the mark was first rate... stands there like a caged tiger ready to pounce and once the umps calls play on... he's off and running.

And as for small Durds, Owies and Motlop together... each offers terrific points of difference in a small forward, all offer (when they're 'on') great pressure. Keep them thar 3 amigos together.
My one minor criticism of Mots ATM is he seems to slow down to make his decision on what to do next. He is just a kid granted but he needs to make decisions at whilst moving at full tilt (like Durds does).
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Micky0 on March 24, 2023, 11:09:05 am
Watching the replay of second half Fish was better than how I saw him at the game. Lots of pressure play, yes some silly errors - how TF do we kick into the man on the mark!? - but overall better.

JSOS looked a little sore at one stage - he is important to us and needs to be given some slack. Kid does not stop and keeps at it.

Was concerned we’d run out of legs in the last but they rallied. Was nervous until final 30 seconds, not good for the heart, these games.

With disappointment and close losses, comes learning, resilience and hardened resolve. There was a difference last night and even last week, to end of last year - slight but it’s there 💪🏼
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: bratblue on March 24, 2023, 11:19:09 am
By the way, Cowan & Hollands are two of the best pick-ups we have made in some years.

Since Dow and O'brien. ( Roll eyes)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 24, 2023, 11:47:02 am
Fans tend to focus on only certain aspects of the creative stuff and the finishing. But the other side to the creative stuff is what we see Ed and Ollie doing over the first couple of weeks, especially Ed last night.

When you see those turnovers it's easy to focus on the tackler or the one who spoils, but the truth is the Cats got disrupted because blokes like Ed and Hollands did the hard running to close off exit avenues. This type of creative defence can't be under-estimated in value.

Further, the return of Durdin allowed more run across the full game time from Owies, Motlop and Fisher, so we get a compounding effect. Ed and Hollands prepared to work, and the others remaining fresh enough to genuinely assist.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Thryleon on March 24, 2023, 12:37:12 pm
Fans tend to focus on only certain aspects of the creative stuff and the finishing. But the other side to the creative stuff is what we see Ed and Ollie doing over the first couple of weeks, especially Ed last night.

When you see those turnovers it's easy to focus on the tackler or the one who spoils, but the truth is the Cats got disrupted because blokes like Ed and Hollands did the hard running to close of exit avenues. This type of creative defence can't be under-estimated in value.

Further, the return of Durdin allowed more run across the full game time from Owies, Motlop and Fisher, so we get a compounding effect. Ed and Hollands prepared to work, and the others remaining fresh enough to genuinely assist.
Acres pushed back really hard, and he had a VERY good game last night.

Owies and Durdin work really hard.  Owies the better finisher, but very vanilla (nothing wrong with that).  Durdin way more mercurial, faster and capable of applying more panic pressure. 

They are the better two small forwards at the moment, but it was telling how the forward line lost organisation without JSOS out there speaking of intangibles. 

Also, plus 1 to the coaches for finally dropping Curnow behind the ball in the last few minutes.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 24, 2023, 12:44:47 pm
he acknowledged that and said they will look different in 4 weeks time and again at the end of the year. I heard him talk about the coming season during the PS and he stated they would need to be different to 22 otherwise they will get knocked over. They do have some fair key personnel missing so they can't play structurally they way they would have planned for in the PS, the two losses show that. Apart from his coaches box antics/theatrics, he is one of the football people I like listening to when interviewed. Astute, measured but ruthless (just like he played).
Dirty, arrogant and without humility are the words that come to my mind when talking the Kray brothers...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 24, 2023, 12:46:18 pm
Also, plus 1 to the coaches for finally dropping Curnow behind the ball in the last few minutes.
Probably, but in reality it was Scott's moves that freed up Charlie and McKay to become better options. The Cats rolled the dice and it allowed Charlie and McKay some more freedom.

As bizarre as this may seem, I think Ratugolea was perhaps the best defender on the ground last night, I was a bit shocked to see he only took three marks.

Agree about SoJ, his fate is not as cut and dry as many want to think, but he is in that zone. It will be interesting to see what balance Voss can strike, because last night's setup took a much bigger toll on our Mids than Rnd 1, we are lucky we have the extended break. I suspect we will find one of Durdin, Owies or Motlop out to make way for the return of Walsh and Hewett, with one other player and Pitto likely to become part of the starting 22 which might impact SoJ.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 24, 2023, 12:52:11 pm
Both us and Collingwood have knocked them over with the same game plan and he hadn't been able to find the answers apart from saying it's all ok.
Well we've said before, age does weary them, no matter how long you think you can get away with it age will eventually catch up.

The few they have lost and have out make a huge difference, at the moment they are significantly different to last season.

But at this stage I'm not so bullish about their future, I can't see some of the younger ones bridging the skills / strength gap, they have talent but the physicality the Cats are losing through natural attrition isn't something you can learn. Tuohy, Rowan, Smith, Figjam, Hawkins, Stanley, C.Guthrie, they are all looking a bit old and weary. As I stated last year, they relied on superior skills to retain the footy, and I doubted they could do it long enough to win a flag, but they proved me wrong, this year they are less skilled and older, it's an even bigger problem for them!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 01:36:16 pm
Watching the replay of second half Fish was better than how I saw him at the game. Lots of pressure play, yes some silly errors - how TF do we kick into the man on the mark!? - but overall better.

JSOS looked a little sore at one stage - he is important to us and needs to be given some slack. Kid does not stop and keeps at it.

Was concerned we’d run out of legs in the last but they rallied. Was nervous until final 30 seconds, not good for the heart, these games.

With disappointment and close losses, comes learning, resilience and hardened resolve. There was a difference last night and even last week, to end of last year - slight but it’s there 💪🏼
So SOS stays in, Fishers stays in? Who goes out for Walsh and George then? Difficult isn't it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: PaulP on March 24, 2023, 01:39:45 pm
Since Dow and O'brien. ( Roll eyes)

bratblue, you've been a little quiet these past few months. Tutto bene ?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 24, 2023, 01:48:11 pm
Gov was a major reason behind our success in the first half of season 2022. He has a rare combination of intercept marking, run and adventurous kicking which can open up opposition forward presses. Sure, his marking is rusty at the moment and his decision-making is questionable at times, but both will improve with games under the belt after having little match practice in the preseason. Getting high quality exits out of D50 against a pressure team like the Tigers is pretty much down to Saad and Gov.

Saad was superb. Gov was solid and as you say provided quality d50 exits.

IIRC around a year ago Gov was similar in that he "missed it by that much" (best Maxwell Smart voice). Some of us questioned his eyesight. Eyesight, timing, reaction speed, match/fitness, form. I know not. If that resolves and he can stay fit. He's an important piece of the puzzle.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: bratblue on March 24, 2023, 04:31:52 pm
bratblue, you've been a little quiet these past few months. Tutto bene ?

I hibernate during the off season, generally don't come back here until winter. Nice to see my sparing partner is still around.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: PaulP on March 24, 2023, 04:39:36 pm
I hibernate during the off season, generally don't come back here until winter. Nice to see my sparing partner is still around.

Lol. We only sparred for a short while. Good to have you back.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 05:16:49 pm
The only problem with a good win like that on a Thursday night is that it's too long until our next game; the anticipation is killing me!

It was interesting to hear several players talk about the sessions where they analysed what didn't work against the Tigers and set about addressing those areas.

I thought that Cameron was Geelong's only clear winner.  With the exception of his opponents, all of our players won or equalised their positions.  It was an excellent team performance, with several players capping consistent performances with outstanding periods; such as Saad's first half, Crippa's third quarter and Harry's last ten minutes.  Ed turned the clock back with the job he did on Guthrie while having an impact in our forward half.  I loved Charlie's response when he goaled after Ed's pass.  The response to Ed's goal was pretty special too.  He is a heart and soul player and the decision to keep him on for another season looks like paying dividends.

I guess we've answered the question about whether we can play Charlie, Harry, Jack, Tom, Pitto, Crippa, Weiters and Young in the same team ... and why wouldn't you  :)

Jack did take a couple ruck contests, as did Cripps, but I thought that we got much better value from him focusing on his tall  forward role.  He is a smart footballer who can create opportunities for those around him with his positioning and good use of the footy. 

The Owies/Motlop/Durdin combination worked really well and created headaches for the Geelong defence while assisting our defence as required.  Having three small forwards with different bags of tricks is a positive.  I was surprised to see that Motlop wasn't credited with any tackles.  He laid several, including one where Tuohy gave him a forearm to the face.  Perhaps I need to look up the CD definition of tackle  :-\

Weitering was very good on Hawkins and Pitto and De Koning both rucked very well against him.  I imagine that Matty K put a lot of thought into stopping Hawkins getting shots at goal from ruck contests.

Vossy's pressers are always good value, even when we lose.  Scott is always surly when the Cats lose and he seems to go out of his way to find excuses for him and his team.  That said, I thought that he did try to provide relevant responses to some well-directed questions.

Scott's decision to sub Stanley out didn't help their cause.  Pitto and De Koning went to work on Blicavs, Cripps was freed up and Whyte didn't fire a shot.  O'Brien had more impact but I would have preferred Silvagni to have stayed on the ground.

Note to G2C: You can officially add Hollands to the top of our 2-way running power ladder  :)

Go Blues!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 05:36:31 pm
.

Note to G2C: You can officially add Hollands to the top of our 2-way running power ladder  :)

Roger that, I noted at one point he had the highest distance covered out of all players on the field. Dunno if he finished up with the highest but he is an impressive lad.
Watching the replay today, I figured out he reminds my of ol mate Hoops in the way he runs and his kicking action.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 24, 2023, 05:55:10 pm
I thought that Cameron was Geelong's only clear winner.  With the exception of his opponents, all of our players won or equalised their positions. 

Much as it pains me to say it ...but credit where it's due, Cameron was outstanding, and not just with his goalkicking. He worked both ends of the field with his run and picked up a lazy 25 disposals. One passage where he started the play on one side of the ground and ran to the other side to receive was an example of his work ethic.
We probably  would have won easily if he hadn't been there.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 24, 2023, 05:59:08 pm
Cameron is probably the best player in the comp.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 24, 2023, 06:17:40 pm
Roger that, I noted at one point he had the highest distance covered out of all players on the field. Dunno if he finished up with the highest but he is an impressive lad.
Watching the replay today, I figured out he reminds my of ol mate Hoops in the way he runs and his kicking action.

I was beginning to like Hollands too and then you had to mention the Houlihan comparison......😒
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 06:28:36 pm
Much as it pains me to say it ...but credit where it's due, Cameron was outstanding, and not just with his goalkicking. He worked both ends of the field with his run and picked up a lazy 25 disposals. One passage where he started the play on one side of the ground and ran to the other side to receive was an example of his work ethic.
We probably  would have won easily if he hadn't been there.

I recall him being quite upset when outmarked by Charlie when he drifted back to create a two on one at CHB.  His work ethic is outstanding.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 06:31:45 pm
Roger that, I noted at one point he had the highest distance covered out of all players on the field. Dunno if he finished up with the highest but he is an impressive lad.
Watching the replay today, I figured out he reminds my of ol mate Hoops in the way he runs and his kicking action.

Hollands’ disposal isn’t as silky as Hoops’ was and Hoops wouldn’t have run half that distance 🙂
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: RiverRat on March 24, 2023, 06:40:26 pm
Saad was superb.

Very much so - also impressed by the times that he dribbled the ball at his feet, rather than having a wild kick off the ground
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 06:44:36 pm
Tommy D charged by the MRO with kneeing Stanley in a ruck contest. Thats too funny. $3000 fine reduced to $2000 with an early plea. Since farken when?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Mav on March 24, 2023, 06:58:39 pm
My son and I disagreed on this when we saw it last night. He thought there was nothing stopping a ruckman raising a knee to his opponent even if he doesn’t jump. I told him that the umpire missed it and should have given Stanley a free. My son has done a fair amount of rucking and I haven’t but surely you can’t do a Muay Thai knee strike to put your opponent out of the contest.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2023, 07:00:51 pm
Rank these in order....
  PLAYER
 A - B - C
11 - 13 - 10 - Disposals
2 - 4 - 3 - Marks
217 - 204 - 97 - metres gained
1 - 2 - 0 - Goal assists
72 - 66 - 53 - TOG%
2 - 3 - 1 - I50's
4 - 6 - 2 - Score involvements
72 - 69 - 50 - DE%
6 - 1 - 2 - Tackles
3 - 0 - 1 - Clearances



FWIW.....








TDK - SOS - PItto
22 - 0 - 14 - Hitouts

Not sure how TDK/PITTO are getting so much love and Jack is the immediate out.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 24, 2023, 07:05:06 pm
My son and I disagreed on this when we saw it last night. He thought there was nothing stopping a ruckman raising a knee to his opponent even if he doesn’t jump. I told him that the umpire missed it and should have given Stanley a free. My son has done a fair amount of rucking and I haven’t but surely you can’t do a Muay Thai knee strike to put your opponent out of the contest.

At 5 foot 10 I have never rucked but what is the line for if you are allowed to cross it to take away the opponent's run?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 24, 2023, 07:06:43 pm
At 5 foot 10 I have never rucked but what is the line for if you are allowed to cross it to take away the opponent's run?
I pointed that out at the time, Should've been a free kick every day of the week and for whatever reason it was completely missed.
Not only that but he took his eyes off the ball to find his opponent, which should also be a free.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 24, 2023, 07:06:49 pm
Rank these in order....
  PLAYER
 A - B - C
11 - 13 - 10 - Disposals
2 - 4 - 3 - Marks
217 - 204 - 97 - metres gained
1 - 2 - 0 - Goal assists
72 - 66 - 53 - TOG%
2 - 3 - 1 - I50's
4 - 6 - 2 - Score involvements
72 - 69 - 50 - DE%
6 - 1 - 2 - Tackles
3 - 0 - 1 - Clearances



FWIW.....








TDK - SOS - PItto
22 - 0 - 14 - Hitouts

Not sure how TDK/PITTO are getting so much love and Jack is the immediate out.

They all played their role. I wouldn't be dropping Jack.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 24, 2023, 07:08:47 pm
I pointed that out at the time, Should've been a free kick every day of the week and for whatever reason it was completely missed.
Not only that but he took his eyes off the ball to find his opponent, which should also be a free.

I'm not sure if it is a free anymore, I see it all the time. I know it was a free in 1999 as I have watched a particular game about 300 times.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 07:09:10 pm
Tommy D charged by the MRO with kneeing Stanley in a ruck contest. Thats too funny. $3000 fine reduced to $2000 with an early plea. Since farken when?

Tom should have got a free for blocking; Stanley ran straight into his knee.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 07:13:49 pm
Rank these in order....
  PLAYER
 A - B - C
11 - 13 - 10 - Disposals
2 - 4 - 3 - Marks
217 - 204 - 97 - metres gained
1 - 2 - 0 - Goal assists
72 - 66 - 53 - TOG%
2 - 3 - 1 - I50's
4 - 6 - 2 - Score involvements
72 - 69 - 50 - DE%
6 - 1 - 2 - Tackles
3 - 0 - 1 - Clearances



FWIW.....








TDK - SOS - PItto
22 - 0 - 14 - Hitouts

Not sure how TDK/PITTO are getting so much love and Jack is the immediate out.

Jack’s role was tall forward, not ruck.  Compare him with Charlie and Harry, not Pitto and Tom.

I wouldn’t be dropping him.  Our forward line worked better when he was playing.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 24, 2023, 07:16:08 pm
Rank these in order....
  PLAYER
 A - B - C
11 - 13 - 10 - Disposals
2 - 4 - 3 - Marks
217 - 204 - 97 - metres gained
1 - 2 - 0 - Goal assists
72 - 66 - 53 - TOG%
2 - 3 - 1 - I50's
4 - 6 - 2 - Score involvements
72 - 69 - 50 - DE%
6 - 1 - 2 - Tackles
3 - 0 - 1 - Clearances



FWIW.....








TDK - SOS - PItto
22 - 0 - 14 - Hitouts

Not sure how TDK/PITTO are getting so much love and Jack is the immediate out.
Silvagni also missed the last quarter...so his stats would have been better.
I just feel watching him that he's a bit out of sorts.
His touch seems a bit off and he's missing marks he normally takes.
I don't know whether he was injured, if he was subbed off without injury that's probably a bit of an indicator he's on the fringe.
Pittonet needs game time more than anything else at the moment.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 07:16:22 pm
I pointed that out at the time, Should've been a free kick every day of the week and for whatever reason it was completely missed.
Not only that but he took his eyes off the ball to find his opponent, which should also be a free.

Most ruckmen look at their opponent.  That was a feature of Matty K’s ruckwork and he will be passing that on to his ruck team.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Mav on March 24, 2023, 07:25:59 pm
Remember, centre bounces are still the go even if there are quite a few centre ball-ups. Only rarely would the ball go up directly over the centre line (and that also applies to a degree to ball-ups). Requiring a ruckman to stay on his own side of the line would make no sense if the ball drops in his opponent’s side of the larger centre circle.

The centre line really tells a ruckman that he has to stay on his half of the centre circle until the ball leaves the umpire’s hands.

The rules relating to ruck contests are a bit mysterious. But it appears that a guiding principle is that both ruckmen have to have a chance to contest the bounce or ball-up. For instance, you’d think it would be fair game to hold the opposing ruck at bay with a stiff arm to the chest but that’s a red flag. At the centre bounce, one ruckman can’t run past the ball drop to body out the opposing ruck, unlike a forward or defender in a marking contest. That would be regarded as blocking. And yet a ruckman can jump with a knee into his opponent’s chest and that’s kosher, even though that puts the opponent out of the contest. When a whistle goes in a rucking duel, I hold my breath as I usually have no idea which way it will go.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 07:29:10 pm
I neglected to mention Lewis Young.  Although soundly beaten by Cameron earlier in the game, Lewis held his nerve at the end and went for the mark against Cameron, coming out on top.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Baggers on March 24, 2023, 07:38:16 pm
I neglected to mention Lewis Young.  Although soundly beaten by Cameron earlier in the game, Lewis held his nerve at the end and went for the mark against Cameron, coming out on top.

Great education for Lewis, unlikely to find himself up against a better opponent. Credit given where due... Cameron was brilliant, and considering he was in considerable discomfort late in the game, he still impacted the contest significantly.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 24, 2023, 10:50:11 pm
I neglected to mention Lewis Young.  Although soundly beaten by Cameron earlier in the game, Lewis held his nerve at the end and went for the mark against Cameron, coming out on top.
When he kicked his 3 goals he kicked in the last qtr, he wasn't opposed to Young.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 24, 2023, 10:57:17 pm
When he kicked his 3 goals he kicked in the last qtr, he wasn't opposed to Young.

That's right.  Young was moved off him earlier in the game but went back to him late in the last quarter.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Mav on March 25, 2023, 01:19:59 am
It seems to me that the Blues (perhaps more specifically Weitering) are keen to expose Young to the opposition’s best tall forward but if he starts wilting he switches to a more manageable opponent. That was particularly so against the Tigers. He started on Lynch but was as nervous as a junior player who had been given a game in the seniors. He played with no confidence and was completely reactive. Lynch was well on top. He quickly switched to Riewoldt and he soon acted like a veteran star defender against a junior forward. When he switched back to Lynch, he continued to play with confidence and did well.

If this is how Young’s being handled (and I might be imagining it) then bravo. The last thing we need is to see him destroyed by an AFL star. Weiters is good enough and confident enough to take all comers and is selfless enough to give his team mates a chop out when required.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: tonyo on March 25, 2023, 05:09:27 am
It seems to me that the Blues (perhaps more specifically Weitering) are keen to expose Young to the opposition’s best tall forward but if he starts wilting he switches to a more manageable opponent. That was particularly so against the Tigers. He started on Lynch but was as nervous as a junior player who had been given a game in the seniors. He played with no confidence and was completely reactive. Lynch was well on top. He quickly switched to Riewoldt and he soon acted like a veteran star defender against a junior forward. When he switched back to Lynch, he continued to play with confidence and did well.

If this is how Young’s being handled (and I might be imagining it) then bravo. The last thing we need is to see him destroyed by an AFL star. Weiters is good enough and confident enough to take all comers and is selfless enough to give his team mates a chop out when required.
Every backman has a tough night (even SOS had 10+ kicked on him a couple of times), it's all part of the learning experience.  Cameron is a very different beast from most of the forward line gorillas - he is extremely mobile, and can drill them from 60, a tall defender's nightmare.  The secret to making his life hard is to limit easy supply from the midfield, and to jam the leading lanes in the forward line. 

We need to do a lot more work on having the midfielders fill holes during defensive set plays - have a look at the set play where Henry took a chest mark on the lead 30m out from goal - that should just not happen.  

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 08:27:56 am
Remember, centre bounces are still the go even if there are quite a few centre ball-ups. Only rarely would the ball go up directly over the centre line (and that also applies to a degree to ball-ups). Requiring a ruckman to stay on his own side of the line would make no sense if the ball drops in his opponent’s side of the larger centre circle.

The centre line really tells a ruckman that he has to stay on his half of the centre circle until the ball leaves the umpire’s hands.

The rules relating to ruck contests are a bit mysterious. But it appears that a guiding principle is that both ruckmen have to have a chance to contest the bounce or ball-up. For instance, you’d think it would be fair game to hold the opposing ruck at bay with a stiff arm to the chest but that’s a red flag. At the centre bounce, one ruckman can’t run past the ball drop to body out the opposing ruck, unlike a forward or defender in a marking contest. That would be regarded as blocking. And yet a ruckman can jump with a knee into his opponent’s chest and that’s kosher, even though that puts the opponent out of the contest. When a whistle goes in a rucking duel, I hold my breath as I usually have no idea which way it will go.
Iirc, me and mbb are remembering the same contest.

Ball was bounced, Geelong ruckman right over the centre line, then stopped and looked up to find the ball which had been bounced directly up.

Essentially, he had no eyes for the ball until he was in a position to shepherd his opponent from the ball.

The whole push from the afl and introducing the circle line is to keep the rucks separate so they can contest the ball, what he did was exactly what that line/rule was introduced to stop.

So as you said, a ruck can't run past the drop of the ball to body out an opponent, but that is exactly what happened.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: BluePhantom on March 25, 2023, 10:25:54 am
Finally watched the replay and my, Harry the Heart breaker became Harry the Heart saver in those last 5mins.
He was absolutely awesome, Jezza Cameron like, just without the goals. Well done Harry.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 11:21:26 am
Jack’s role was tall forward, not ruck.  Compare him with Charlie and Harry, not Pitto and Tom.

I wouldn’t be dropping him.  Our forward line worked better when he was playing.

Silvagni also missed the last quarter...so his stats would have been better.
I just feel watching him that he's a bit out of sorts.
His touch seems a bit off and he's missing marks he normally takes.
I don't know whether he was injured, if he was subbed off without injury that's probably a bit of an indicator he's on the fringe.
Pittonet needs game time more than anything else at the moment.
I have TOG there and he actually spent more time on the ground than Pittonet.

The reason i stacked him up against TDK + Pittonet is because everybody is raving about how well our 2 rucks did, and (some) people are calling for Jack to be dropped off the back of that effort.

Sure, stats aren't everything but but its seems they offered very similar output (all 3) and i'm not sure you could isolate 1 over another.

FWIW, Jack had team high 2 marks on lead
Jack had team high 2 goal assists
Team high tackles inside 50.

To go with 0.2, so far from the worse on the ground.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: rocky on March 25, 2023, 11:27:10 am
And yet a ruckman can jump with a knee into his opponent’s chest and that’s kosher, even though that puts the opponent out of the contest. When a whistle goes in a rucking duel, I hold my breath as I usually have no idea which way it will go.
UNLESS  you are a Carlton Ruckmen. Perplexed that TDK was fined $3000 for putting his knee into Stanley at a ruck contest,  WTF? Someone remind me what penalty Freo's Darcy got for going at Pitto (no eyes on the ball) with his knee and effectively putting him out for the year??
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Mav on March 25, 2023, 11:51:49 am
To be fair, though, TdK didn’t jump into Stanley. He was like a martial artist executing a knee strike while keeping his back foot grounded. That’s a different beast.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2023, 12:08:08 pm
UNLESS  you are a Carlton Ruckmen. Perplexed that TDK was fined $3000 for putting his knee into Stanley at a ruck contest,  WTF? Someone remind me what penalty Freo's Darcy got for going at Pitto (no eyes on the ball) with his knee and effectively putting him out for the year??

Looking at it a few times it was a clumsy act that resulted in Stanley going off the ground and subbed. A fine is about right.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 25, 2023, 12:22:36 pm
I have TOG there and he actually spent more time on the ground than Pittonet.

The reason i stacked him up against TDK + Pittonet is because everybody is raving about how well our 2 rucks did, and (some) people are calling for Jack to be dropped off the back of that effort.

Sure, stats aren't everything but but its seems they offered very similar output (all 3) and i'm not sure you could isolate 1 over another.

FWIW, Jack had team high 2 marks on lead
Jack had team high 2 goal assists
Team high tackles inside 50.

To go with 0.2, so far from the worse on the ground.

That's probably where it gets a bit confusing.
If we only play one of our main ruckmen  Jack takes the position of second ruck.
But Jack's not a ruckman. That's not his position.
But he can play multiple roles.
In some respects his versatility counts against him.

We have taller bigger players at both ends who would probably provide a better ruck contest than Jack but we can't afford that luxury for specialist players.
So Jack's the sacrificial lamb when we play one ruck.

When Pittonet played I thought ,good...Jack can play more his natural role. But he didn't really shine.
 
Jack's one of my favourite players, because he always gives 100%
I'd have him in my team most weeks.

I said before he seems a bit out of sorts, but that's only speculation on my part.
He may have a bit on his mind. His dad copped a hammering in the press last week. It's hard for a son to ignore that criticism especially when his 100th game was at the core of the issue.

So it boils down to this.
If we play two rucks, and we probably should (Pittonet ,especially needs game time), it's not TDK or Pitto that Jack's competing with...it's other players.
Was he injured on Thursday?
The match report suggests not.
If not,then it was decided that he offered the least in value at that point of the game, with that opposition.
With others pushing for selection that puts him in the danger zone.
If not Jack, then who goes out?
We may not make any changes.
There may be a specific role for Jack against GWS.
Selection this week will be interesting.




Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 25, 2023, 12:29:33 pm
Watching the replay, I noticed:

Ed was everywhere. Not necessarily directly impacting but applying pressure in some form

The small fwds looked to be on a pressure mission. Fisher laid a couple of important tackle. He was joined by the ferocious Jack russell-like small  Durds. They acknowledged each others efforts as if it was set play.
Along with H roming far and wide to mark everything near the centreline, it was like a perfect execution of a well drilled fwd line for those exact conditions

The gut running and well executed defensive acts of Acres and Hollands were important

Young's mark against Jezza was enormous. He had composure to burn

Perhaps we're finally learning how to close out the close ones

It's been said many times. It's about doing the ordinary things well. Not the extraordinary. We did the ordinary things perfectly to get the 4pts against a terrific opponent
Although that depends how you rate the Cats 😜
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: PaulP on March 25, 2023, 12:31:15 pm
Jeremy Cameron has touched up plenty of defenders with more experience, more fame and a bigger pay packet than Young.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 25, 2023, 01:49:50 pm
I said before he seems a bit out of sorts, but that's only speculation on my part.
He may have a bit on his mind. His dad copped a hammering in the press last week. It's hard for a son to ignore that criticism especially when his 100th game was at the core of the issue.

So it boils down to this.
If we play two rucks, and we probably should (Pittonet ,especially needs game time), it's not TDK or Pitto that Jack's competing with...it's other players.
Was he injured on Thursday?
The match report suggests not.
If not,then it was decided that he offered the least in value at that point of the game, with that opposition.
With others pushing for selection that puts him in the danger zone.
If not Jack, then who goes out?
We may not make any changes.
There may be a specific role for Jack against GWS.
Selection this week will be interesting.

I agree about Jack. He's seemed a bit down. He wears his heart on his sleeve and appears a bit ..... hurt, for want of a better word.

Maybe he's burdened emotionally, or is carrying an injury. I think he's out of contract this year. He recently got engaged. Competition for spots is heating up, and his dad is back in the recruitment game! That's a fair bit going on. I hope Jack finds his place and his mojo.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 04:22:36 pm
That's probably where it gets a bit confusing.
If we only play one of our main ruckmen  Jack takes the position of second ruck.
But Jack's not a ruckman. That's not his position.
But he can play multiple roles.
In some respects his versatility counts against him.

We have taller bigger players at both ends who would probably provide a better ruck contest than Jack but we can't afford that luxury for specialist players.
So Jack's the sacrificial lamb when we play one ruck.

When Pittonet played I thought ,good...Jack can play more his natural role. But he didn't really shine.
 
Jack's one of my favourite players, because he always gives 100%
I'd have him in my team most weeks.

I said before he seems a bit out of sorts, but that's only speculation on my part.
He may have a bit on his mind. His dad copped a hammering in the press last week. It's hard for a son to ignore that criticism especially when his 100th game was at the core of the issue.

So it boils down to this.
If we play two rucks, and we probably should (Pittonet ,especially needs game time), it's not TDK or Pitto that Jack's competing with...it's other players.
Was he injured on Thursday?
The match report suggests not.
If not,then it was decided that he offered the least in value at that point of the game, with that opposition.
With others pushing for selection that puts him in the danger zone.
If not Jack, then who goes out?
We may not make any changes.
There may be a specific role for Jack against GWS.
Selection this week will be interesting.





I've gone on about the 2 rucks plenty of times, so i'll give my short version.

Play 2 rucks and Silvagni and we see the TOG% we saw on Thursday - 1 of them take up a spot on the bench for the entire game
Play 1 ruck + Silvagni and it allows us to play an extra small, more rotations for all.
Play 2 rucks and no silvagni and you lose a bit of firepower/pressure up forward....resting ruck forward is a good theory, but we don't get much out of those 2.

My preference....
Pitto and SOS. Pitto play 80% of the ruck. SOS gives him a chop out but plays mainly down forward. It simply gives us more run through the middle, while not sacrificing up forward.

As for who should come out.....i'd prefer a ruck.
I think Cowan could be up for a rest.
Also think we might want to potentially lose a small forward as we are carrying 3, plus fisher.

In short, nobody DESERVES to be dropped, so you pick a team that helps you win the game. Don't go too tall, too small, too injured etc.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 25, 2023, 04:34:25 pm
Jack is not a ruckman. If he rucks we lose.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 25, 2023, 04:37:14 pm
I've gone on about the 2 rucks plenty of times, so i'll give my short version.

Play 2 rucks and Silvagni and we see the TOG% we saw on Thursday - 1 of them take up a spot on the bench for the entire game
Play 1 ruck + Silvagni and it allows us to play an extra small, more rotations for all.
Play 2 rucks and no silvagni and you lose a bit of firepower/pressure up forward....resting ruck forward is a good theory, but we don't get much out of those 2.

My preference....
Pitto and SOS. Pitto play 80% of the ruck. SOS gives him a chop out but plays mainly down forward. It simply gives us more run through the middle, while not sacrificing up forward.

As for who should come out.....i'd prefer a ruck.
I think Cowan could be up for a rest.
Also think we might want to potentially lose a small forward as we are carrying 3, plus fisher.

In short, nobody DESERVES to be dropped, so you pick a team that helps you win the game. Don't go too tall, too small, too injured etc.

So essentially Kruds you don't see TDK as part of our future.
That's fair enough, no doubt some good compensation for us, but...
It will be a rather bizarre situation where clubs come with big money for a player who can't make the best 23.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: PaulP on March 25, 2023, 04:41:59 pm
Jack is not a ruckman. If he rucks we lose.

I agree.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 25, 2023, 05:12:31 pm
SoJ is given extra credits by fans for having his surname, it's always going to be that way.

But AFL is a brutal business, and perhaps some fans would be shocked to learn his surname means nothing to the MC or list managers.

If SoJ is selected he has to be selected on merit, and he has to retain his spot on merit, we can't be inventing roles just to give him a game, that is not how AFL works. Really, as much as it may disappoint fans, it's the way he'd want it!

At the moment I don't see a problem, for me if it's SoJ or Martin then SoJ gets a tick, but I think the problem for fans is that the MC is not likely to a regular spot for either player in that 3rd marking forward role. As forwards they are probably filling the last spot, as Mids they are at the bottom end of a long queue, neither are AFL defenders of note, and they aren't overly quick.

TDK and Pitto are miles ahead as a ruck combo, I feel fans dismissing TDK are being somewhat disingenuous simply because they know what it means for someone named Silvagni.

Pitto alone is not the answer, he is a good stoppage ruckmen and zoning defender but he's too one dimensional, TDK alone is not the answer, he is great floating forward but he is still developing as a ruck. SoJ isn't a great ruck option relieving either.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 25, 2023, 05:46:46 pm
JSOS can be the third marking forward and retain his spot....Fritsch and Rohan are different players to JSOS but having that third established forward target helped Melbourne and Geelong win premierships. They dont have to kick big bags but just be part of the structure and know their role that makes the other more key players better, and I reckon Jack knows his role and is happy to sacrifice for the good of the team where ever he plays on the field.
For me he is an automatic selection given his attitude and ability to play multiple roles and I dont get why people want to give him the Khyber after one win vs a premiership hung over Geelong team and think we can now can get experimental and extravagant with selection.
The reality is if we lose to GWS this week then we are right back in the midpack crape again with just one win from three and Id be sticking with players who I can rely on to turn up and you know will play for the jumper...
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 25, 2023, 06:21:56 pm
Jack is not a ruckman. If he rucks we lose.

X2
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 25, 2023, 06:52:38 pm
I sometimes wonder if other folk are watching the same games of footy 🙂

Jack plays most of his footy as a tall forward.  When Charlie or Harry have a spell, Jack takes a key forward role.  If all three are on the field together, Jack plays as the third tall.  His lead up marking is very good and I believe that he takes more marks on the lead than our other forwards.  He is also a good contested mark and he reads the play well and can find space away from his defender.  Jack had a period when his goal kicking wasn’t that reliable.  He’s addressed that and his ability to find a teammate inside 50 is very good.  He also works hard on his defensive game and can play in defence if required.

Jack’s not a ruckman and, at best, he’s looking to neutralise the opposition rucks.  When he does pinch hit in the ruck, our forward line is less potent and our midfielders less effective.  Pitto and Tom can both clunk a mark in the forward line but they don’t have Jack’s forward craft.

Our best ruck combination is Pitto and Tom (with Mirkov waiting in the wings).  It shouldn’t be too hard to work out a rotation that keeps pressure on the opposition rucks and defenders and makes life difficult for the opposition forwards.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 07:50:54 pm
Jack is not a ruckman. If he rucks we lose.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

When we played 1 ruck + Jack
R4 - LOSS vs Gold Coast - Cripps got injured/subbed out
R5 - WIN vs Port
R7 - WIN vs North
R8 - WIN vs Crows
R9 - WIN vs GWS
R10 - WIN vs Syd
R11 - LOSS vs Coll - 4 point loss, Weiters subbed out in the 1st quarter
R13 - WIN vs Ess
R14 - LOSS vs Rich
R15 - WIN vs Freo
R16 - LOSS vs Saints
R17 - WIN vs WCE
R18 - LOSS vs Geel
R19 - WIN vs GWS
R21 - LOSS vs Bris
R22 - LOSS vs Mel - 5 point loss
R23 - LOSS vs Coll - 1 point loss

2 rucks and Jack
R1 - WIN vs Tigers
R2 - WIN vs Dogs
R3 - WIN vs Hawks
R20 - LOSS vs Crows

1 ruck only, no Jack
R6 - LOSS vs Freo

1 ruck + Jack = 53% win ratio (including 3 losses by under 1 goal)
2 rucks + jack = 75% win ratio
1 ruck, no jack = 0% win ratio

1 ruck + Jack in 2023 - 1 draw.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: pinot on March 25, 2023, 07:59:09 pm
Yeah but Jack gets beaten up in the ruck loses confidence and gets sent to VFL like late last season.

He is one hell of a competitor in there for sure. But I don't think that should be the issue. I think we need to keep a core 30-35 players and Jack is in there for sure but best 22 will come down to fitness, form and team balance imo.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 08:00:09 pm
So essentially Kruds you don't see TDK as part of our future.
That's fair enough, no doubt some good compensation for us, but...
It will be a rather bizarre situation where clubs come with big money for a player who can't make the best 23.

re TDK...
Not necessarily.

Up to this point in time.....
I don't think he can play #1 ruck for 80%-90% of the game like Pitto can.
I don't think he can be as effective up forward as Jack can.
So if we play TDK, we basically take up a spot on the bench for half a game as a result.

Now, he has the potential to dominate games.....but its unrealised potential at this stage.
Pittonet for all his athletic shortcomings by comparison to TDK makes up for it with pure aggression and elite ruckwork.
Its not always the ones he wins either. A few took note how he was able to resist the classic Hawkins push-off from boundary throw-ins that has netted Hawkins numerous shots on goal. I reckon he scored one against TDK last year with that very move!

So for team balance, i think 1 ruck for 80-90% of the game, with short bursts of Jack in the middle allows us to play another midfielder (instead of a 2nd ruck) and that extra midfielder will give us more benefit than that 2nd ruck.

Thats not saying anything against TDK, its simply how i think we can win more games.

We almost got ran over by the cats for that exact reason. Essentially our team changed (Durdin <-> Martin, and Pittonet <-> Hewitt)
We played the extra ruck, instead of a midfielder, and ran out of legs and almost lost. That is exactly what i've been trying to avoid!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 08:01:18 pm
Yeah but Jack gets beaten up in the ruck loses confidence and gets sent to VFL like late last season.

He is one hell of a competitor in there for sure. But I don't think that should be the issue. I think we need to keep a core 30-35 players and Jack is in there for sure but best 22 will come down to fitness, form and team balance imo.
Jack missed 1 game, and it was R6.


TEAM BALANCE, is exactly why i favour him over a 2nd pure ruckman.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 25, 2023, 08:20:43 pm
2 rucks + jack = 75% win ratio

Well, there you go!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 25, 2023, 08:30:24 pm
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

When we played 1 ruck + Jack
R4 - LOSS vs Gold Coast - Cripps got injured/subbed out
R5 - WIN vs Port
R7 - WIN vs North
R8 - WIN vs Crows
R9 - WIN vs GWS
R10 - WIN vs Syd
R11 - LOSS vs Coll - 4 point loss, Weiters subbed out in the 1st quarter
R13 - WIN vs Ess
R14 - LOSS vs Rich
R15 - WIN vs Freo
R16 - LOSS vs Saints
R17 - WIN vs WCE
R18 - LOSS vs Geel
R19 - WIN vs GWS
R21 - LOSS vs Bris
R22 - LOSS vs Mel - 5 point loss
R23 - LOSS vs Coll - 1 point loss

2 rucks and Jack
R1 - WIN vs Tigers
R2 - WIN vs Dogs
R3 - WIN vs Hawks
R20 - LOSS vs Crows

1 ruck only, no Jack
R6 - LOSS vs Freo

1 ruck + Jack = 53% win ratio (including 3 losses by under 1 goal)
2 rucks + jack = 75% win ratio
1 ruck, no jack = 0% win ratio

1 ruck + Jack in 2023 - 1 draw.

You just proved my point.

PS: The rd 6 game against Freo that Jack missed we played 2 rucks but Pittonet was injured in the first term which saw Darcy go rampant.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Thryleon on March 25, 2023, 09:51:15 pm
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

When we played 1 ruck + Jack
R4 - LOSS vs Gold Coast - Cripps got injured/subbed out
R5 - WIN vs Port
R7 - WIN vs North
R8 - WIN vs Crows
R9 - WIN vs GWS
R10 - WIN vs Syd
R11 - LOSS vs Coll - 4 point loss, Weiters subbed out in the 1st quarter
R13 - WIN vs Ess
R14 - LOSS vs Rich
R15 - WIN vs Freo
R16 - LOSS vs Saints
R17 - WIN vs WCE
R18 - LOSS vs Geel
R19 - WIN vs GWS
R21 - LOSS vs Bris
R22 - LOSS vs Mel - 5 point loss
R23 - LOSS vs Coll - 1 point loss

2 rucks and Jack
R1 - WIN vs Tigers
R2 - WIN vs Dogs
R3 - WIN vs Hawks
R20 - LOSS vs Crows

1 ruck only, no Jack
R6 - LOSS vs Freo

1 ruck + Jack = 53% win ratio (including 3 losses by under 1 goal)
2 rucks + jack = 75% win ratio
1 ruck, no jack = 0% win ratio

1 ruck + Jack in 2023 - 1 draw.
this is where stats adopt help an argument.

It worked early on as shock factor but there have been some really bad beats when jsos rucked and some of his early second ruck jobs came when Levi was still around and able to chop out.

The more we do it the less good it looks with him playing as a second ruckman.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 25, 2023, 09:55:20 pm
re TDK...
Not necessarily.

Up to this point in time.....
I don't think he can play #1 ruck for 80%-90% of the game like Pitto can.
I don't think he can be as effective up forward as Jack can.
So if we play TDK, we basically take up a spot on the bench for half a game as a result.

Now, he has the potential to dominate games.....but its unrealised potential at this stage.

I guess the question that comes from that is "If not now,  then when" do we go to the two ruckmen.
If Tom's to realise that potential it's not likely to do us much good if he's playing VFL.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 10:11:49 pm
You just proved my point.

PS: The rd 6 game against Freo that Jack missed we played 2 rucks but Pittonet was injured in the first term which saw Darcy go rampant.
No it didn't prove your point. You said Jack = loss.....clearly that is incorrect.

If you wanted to say 2 rucks plus Jack gives us a better chance of winning, then you should've said that.

On that point, I'd point out that the quality of the opposition we faced with Jack as 2nd ruck is far superior than those other games....which throws serious shade on your new assertion.


Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 10:15:47 pm
I guess the question that comes from that is "If not now,  then when" do we go to the two ruckmen.
If Tom's to realise that potential it's not likely to do us much good if he's playing VFL.


That's up to Tom as much as anyone....or if we get injuries.

Through this whole saga, I have NOT been against TDK at all. I've simply been for the best interests of the club and what gives us best chance of winning games. If TDK ends up being a footnote in that, so be it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 10:18:14 pm
this is where stats adopt help an argument.

It worked early on as shock factor but there have been some really bad beats when jsos rucked and some of his early second ruck jobs came when Levi was still around and able to chop out.

The more we do it the less good it looks with him playing as a second ruckman.


All those stat's are post casboult.

Really bad beats?
3 of the losses was by less than a goal. Another one was because we lost cripps early.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 25, 2023, 10:22:38 pm
Well, there you go!

1 point away from 50%
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 25, 2023, 10:48:51 pm
1 point away from 50%

Blind Freddy could see that we’re more competitive with two genuine rucks and Jack playing as a tall forward.

Jack did a good job pinch hitting in the ruck but it gave us nothing in terms of clearances, marks around the ground and forward line effectiveness.

The better teams go with two ruckmen or one ruckman and a key forward who is big enough to be a genuine ruck.

Playing Jack as a ruckman isn’t going to get us to play finals.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 25, 2023, 11:03:57 pm
I get that this is sad for some fans, I'm sure it's sad for the Silvagni's as well, it's sad for me because I feel SoJ is heart and soul.

But all the best intentions aren't going to make up for the brutality of AFL football.

This isn't a little scribble on the corner of a cafe table, it's a massive neon freeway sign and many have seen it coming from some distance away!

Fans need to be very prepared for the media barrage that is going to come when this situation finally naturally evolves.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: pinot on March 25, 2023, 11:06:55 pm
Jack missed 1 game, and it was R6.


TEAM BALANCE, is exactly why i favour him over a 2nd pure ruckman.

I actually thought we looked better Thursday with two rucks - one tall rucking forward taking arguable tallest player and one ruck behind the ball covering the exit kick. Not to mention we did better alot better around the clearances.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 25, 2023, 11:11:50 pm
I actually thought we looked better Thursday with two rucks - one tall rucking forward taking arguable tallest player and one ruck behind the ball covering the exit kick. Not to mention we did better a lot better around the clearances.
I feel it was painfully obvious, TDK and Pitto have very different strengths and weaknesses, they seem to be able to combined well without getting in each others way!

I thought Pitto floating into D50 allowed Young, Gov and Weiters some freedom, the structure looked better.

TDK floating into F50 helped us become less predictable, it is a situation that will only get better if the three talls can work together.

When we have TDK and Pitto rotating in the ruck, the opposition don't seem to gain as much momentum, and / or we actually seem capable to flipping the momentum. Life was much harder for the opposition, people fans/media credited Cripps in the 3rd Qtr, but wasn't there also a component of TDK and Pitto, would Cripps have had that impact if our 1st ruck was rested by SoJ?

I think part of this is playing fit players, I would never take a unfit Pitto or TDK ahead of a fit SoJ, we have seen in the past the folly of taking questionably fit players into games.

I've thought in the past SoJ had the most impact being the marking option on the wing, but I can't say he's offered anything better than Acres did Thursday night. Acres needs to string a few games together, but I have to presume if that's his level he's a lock for that role.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 25, 2023, 11:19:18 pm
PS: We are having this debate on the evening after the demise of Gawn as a component of the Dees ruck duo, something that brought them undone, well worth consideration!

A week ago the Dees ruck duo had teams panicking!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: bricky on March 26, 2023, 06:20:21 am
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how-the-cats-stalked-charlie-curnow-before-he-stayed-true-blue-20230324-p5cv5d.html
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 26, 2023, 06:21:24 am
Rd 23 last year we lost to the Pies by a point.

Pittonet:  60 ruck contests for 17 hit outs
Silvagni: 33 ruck contests for 5 hit outs

Cameron: 48 ruck contests for 19 hit outs
M. Cox:  53 ruck contests for 24 hit outs

Pittonet can't do it on his own and that was taking 60% of the contests. 80% is not realistic or sustainable.



Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: laj on March 26, 2023, 06:26:02 am
One thing with Pittonet, qhe  he plays, his hit outs to advantage faf out weigh any other players. Think he has been at 41% the last couple of years. Pretty high.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 26, 2023, 07:00:49 am
Playing Jack as a ruckman isn’t going to get us to play finals.

It got us 1 point away from playing them last year.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 26, 2023, 07:03:57 am
Rd 23 last year we lost to the Pies by a point.

Pittonet:  60 ruck contests for 17 hit outs
Silvagni: 33 ruck contests for 5 hit outs

Cameron: 48 ruck contests for 19 hit outs
M. Cox:  53 ruck contests for 24 hit outs

Pittonet can't do it on his own and that was taking 60% of the contests. 80% is not realistic or sustainable.





Should have clarified better, 80%-90% of centre bounces.

Ruck contests deep forward will always be Jack (or Harry) and it skews the numbers a bit.

Pitto takes middle and back
Jack takes forward.
Essentially 2/3's - 1/3...which is exactly what your numbers show.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 26, 2023, 08:45:51 am
Pitto has problems exposed to all, TDK in tandem is the cure.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 26, 2023, 08:47:20 am
It got us 1 point away from playing them last year.
or it made us fall 1pt short
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 26, 2023, 08:51:44 am
One thing with Pittonet, qhe  he plays, his hit outs to advantage faf out weigh any other players. Think he has been at 41% the last couple of years. Pretty high.
If he has to ruck solo it'll be 41% of an ever dwindling number, against the Pies it was 6 out of 70 , it's a fools errand.

How many of the taps opponents win against SoJ are to advantage, do we want to know, not the percentage but the count?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: blueboys_1 on March 26, 2023, 10:37:12 am
Rank these in order....
  PLAYER
 A - B - C
11 - 13 - 10 - Disposals
2 - 4 - 3 - Marks
217 - 204 - 97 - metres gained
1 - 2 - 0 - Goal assists
72 - 66 - 53 - TOG%
2 - 3 - 1 - I50's
4 - 6 - 2 - Score involvements
72 - 69 - 50 - DE%
6 - 1 - 2 - Tackles
3 - 0 - 1 - Clearances



FWIW.....








TDK - SOS - PItto
22 - 0 - 14 - Hitouts

Not sure how TDK/PITTO are getting so much love and Jack is the immediate out.

And he missed 2 sitters as well!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Thryleon on March 26, 2023, 06:42:53 pm
All those stat's are post casboult.

Really bad beats?
3 of the losses was by less than a goal. Another one was because we lost cripps early.


Kruddler, there have been games where Jack has rucked minimally because of how bad he was being beaten and opposition were wise to it, and just thumped the ball clear of the contest to the outside of the pack where our wingers got smashed.

Im a fan of playing all 3 in the team, and using one as a sub as fine, but jsos as second ruck is going to work less frequently the more he does it.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2023, 07:03:42 pm
Kruddler, there have been games where Jack has rucked minimally because of how bad he was being beaten and opposition were wise to it, and just thumped the ball clear of the contest to the outside of the pack where our wingers got smashed.

Im a fan of playing all 3 in the team, and using one as a sub as fine, but jsos as second ruck is going to work less frequently the more he does it.

Absolutely!

Richmond got away with Grigg in the ruck until opposition coaches worked out how to exploit his lack of size.

The worst aspect of using Jack as a pinch hitting ruckman is that it impacts his work as a forward and makes it harder for our other forwards.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 26, 2023, 07:12:29 pm
Absolutely!

Richmond got away with Grigg in the ruck until opposition coaches worked out how to exploit his lack of size.

The worst aspect of using Jack as a pinch hitting ruckman is that it impacts his work as a forward and makes it harder for our other forwards.
Got worked out real well.....after they won a flag with the tactic.

I'll take that.

People fixate on the difference in output between Jack and a genuine 2nd ruck, but they are completely ignoring the fact that we get an extra midfielder as part of that balancing act.
That (lack of) an extra midfielder against the cats almost cost us the game.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 26, 2023, 08:00:16 pm
How did that work last year against Geelong? Blicavs destroyed us.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2023, 11:11:04 pm
Got worked out real well.....after they won a flag with the tactic.

I'll take that.

People fixate on the difference in output between Jack and a genuine 2nd ruck, but they are completely ignoring the fact that we get an extra midfielder as part of that balancing act.
That (lack of) an extra midfielder against the cats almost cost us the game.

It only took a couple of games for opposition coaches to work out how to exploit Jack in the ruck.  For example, in Round 14 last year, Hardwick had Balta play on Jack both when he was a forward and in the ruck.  Balta was simply too strong for Jack and the latter had no influence at all ... and we lost.  Against Collingwood the following week, Cox and cameron were simply too tall and exploited Jack in the ruck and around the ground ... and we lost again.

Jack isn't an extra midfielder when he goes into the ruck.  He has to try to negate the opposition rucks and they work on dragging him to both ends of the ground to create a marking advantage in attack or defence, as well as providing a taller marking option during their transition or to disrupt our transition.

As for the Geelong game, Blicavs - when he wasn't rucking - started in the square on Cripps, then drifted forward to create another marking target and/or drag Cripps out of the midfield.  Cripps didn't go with him, giving us an extra number around the ball.

What almost cost us the game was our inability to transition out of defence.  That wasn't helped by Pitto's lack of match fitness/ managed minutes, but he did give us the ability to compete in the air.  Silvagni does that when he plays as a forward and doesn't have to compete against taller, stronger opponents.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: laj on March 27, 2023, 12:01:54 am
All this discussion about rucks, type of ruck combo we should use etc, did show the value of Levi in his time here as a "professional 2nd ruck" and forward. JSOS can't do his ruck job and we're certainly not going to risk a big forward there. Pittonet and De Koning are a nice combo though. More than capable of doing more than just simply rucking.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2023, 07:18:42 am
How did that work last year against Geelong? Blicavs destroyed us.
Blicavs destroyed cripps......which destroyed us.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 27, 2023, 07:48:21 am
By what measure do you actually think Silvagni is performing well in the ruck?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 27, 2023, 08:17:19 am
Didn't Blicavs 2nd Ruck against us last year, I also recall Hawkins doing a ruck number on us inside F50 as well?

Actually, that game was a great example supporting my argument that taps are pretty much over-rated and 2nd efforts dominate.

Taps to Advantage is a bogus stat because it's hybrid, the stat depends 50/50 on the actions of the Ruck and the actions of the Mids.

The 2nd Efforts like Tackles and 1%ers are pure stats from which all the Ruckmen can be evaluated.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 27, 2023, 08:35:25 am
TDK was great in that aspect on Thursday, reminded me a bit of Kreuzer.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: WASurfer on March 27, 2023, 01:19:17 pm
Late to the party but was over there last week and at the game on Thursday night! Wow....the noise was deafening from a very pro-Carlton crowd. Cameron nearly got them over the line and we couldn't get a match up for him in the end....but everyone else lifted in that last quarter when we were under the hammer. Our 3rd quarter was as exciting as some of those early games last year...and against quality opposition too.

A few observations...apologies if covered elsewhere in this thread:

1. The TDK/Pittonet combination needs to stay, barring injury. They worked well together and TDK going forward at times will test a lot of backlines. It also frees up Silvagni to roam the forward line as a mobile 3rd forward without the added pressure of then having to ruck at times.
2. I was sceptical about playing the 4 smalls....Durdin, Motlop, Fisher and Owies....but they all chipped in and hit the scoreboard. Motlop was really good early on and goes in hard. Great to have Durdin back and Owies was clinical in front of goals. They combined for 6 goals.
3. Like most, wasn't sure about Ed getting games this year but his last quarter was huge when the pressure was on.
4. Acres was average at best last week, but geez he played well and took some good contested marks. The combination of him and Hollands looks really promising. I was sitting on the wing about 20 rows from the fence and Holland's running was impressive....he was everywhere in the first quarter.
5. In 2 games, Cowan looks more reliable by foot and more composed than Plowman already. Hard to see Plowman coming back in any time soon.
6. Our backline is really building nicely. Saad is elite and has proved that first round pick was well worth giving up to get him.

Hypothetical question.....if both Hewett AND Walsh were fit this week, who would be the unlucky 2 players going out? McGovern was ordinary again at times on Thursday night, but structurally he's important down back so I doubt he'd go out for one of them unless they think Docherty can play as the third tall defender and not go through the midfield. And I wouldn't be rushing Jack Martin back anytime soon either.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: PaulP on March 27, 2023, 04:14:39 pm
Coaches' votes :

9 - Jeremy Cameron (GEEL)
9 - Charlie Curnow (CARL)
6 - Adam Saad (CARL)
2 - Ed Curnow (CARL)
2 - Jacob Weitering (CARL)
1 - Blake Acres (CARL)
1 - Isaac Smith (GEEL)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2023, 04:57:35 pm
By what measure do you actually think Silvagni is performing well in the ruck?
Not sure i ever said he was performing well.

He is adequate.

In such a specialist position it hurts you if you can't 'hide' extra rucks in other positions, he solves that problem.

I'm happy to sacrifice a handful of hitouts to advantage (if its even that much) for the benefits an extra midfielder gives us for team balance.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 27, 2023, 05:12:01 pm
I just genuinely think he's a bit flat, and not at his best at the moment....so that's why I'm thinking his spot may be in danger.
Not to say he can't turn that around.
It will depend on the roles he's given... and it could turn around very quickly.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2023, 05:50:34 pm
I just genuinely think he's a bit flat, and not at his best at the moment....so that's why I'm thinking his spot may be in danger.
Not to say he can't turn that around.
It will depend on the roles he's given... and it could turn around very quickly.

He is not at his best....but there are plenty in that boat.

Across 2 games....
-------- Dsp-M-M50-I50-T-G.B.-GA-1%- Clg-TOG
Player A - 18 - 6 - 2 - 4 - 3 - 1.2 - 2 - 4- 4 - 75.5%
Player B - 23 -16 - 3 - 7 - 2 - 2.3 - 1 - 5 - 5 - 93.5%
Player C - 23 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 4 - 4.1 - 1 - 0 - 8 - 72%
Player D - 22 - 7 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 1.0 - 1 - 1 - 4 - 76.5%

Who deserves to be dropped?
Who deserves to be persisted with?
Who is borderline?

FWIW, all 4 players are forwards.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2023, 05:53:39 pm
For those playing at home....

A: Silvagni
B: McKay
C: Owies
D: Motlop
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 27, 2023, 06:31:01 pm
Not sure i ever said he was performing well.

He is adequate.

In such a specialist position it hurts you if you can't 'hide' extra rucks in other positions, he solves that problem.

I'm happy to sacrifice a handful of hitouts to advantage (if its even that much) for the benefits an extra midfielder gives us for team balance.

He's not an extra midfielder
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 27, 2023, 06:31:11 pm
Not sure i ever said he was performing well.

He is adequate.

In such a specialist position it hurts you if you can't 'hide' extra rucks in other positions, he solves that problem.

I'm happy to sacrifice a handful of hitouts to advantage (if its even that much) for the benefits an extra midfielder gives us for team balance.

He's not an extra midfielder
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 27, 2023, 06:45:58 pm
He is not at his best....but there are plenty in that boat.

Across 2 games....
-------- Dsp-M-M50-I50-T-G.B.-GA-1%- Clg-TOG
Player A - 18 - 6 - 2 - 4 - 3 - 1.2 - 2 - 4- 4 - 75.5%
Player B - 23 -16 - 3 - 7 - 2 - 2.3 - 1 - 5 - 5 - 93.5%
Player C - 23 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 4 - 4.1 - 1 - 0 - 8 - 72%
Player D - 22 - 7 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 1.0 - 1 - 1 - 4 - 76.5%

Who deserves to be dropped?
Who deserves to be persisted with?
Who is borderline?

FWIW, all 4 players are forwards.

Yep, but all have different roles and responsibilities.
So the stats are just a part of the story.
It will be interesting to see who, if any, does go out.
If Hewett doesn't come up, it may be no change.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2023, 07:00:15 pm
He's not an extra midfielder
Cmon mate, follow along.

2 rucks + Jack + 21 others
1 ruck + jack + extra midfielder + 21 others.

Using Jack as the second ruckman allows us to play an extra midfielder.

Look at the ins/outs from last game

As far as team balance went it was....
Durdin in for Martin
Pittonet in for Hewitt.

The second ruck took the spot of the extra midfielder.
We tired in the last quarter because we lost that extra midfielder.
We almost lost the game because we didn't have that extra midfielder.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 27, 2023, 07:11:03 pm
We tired in the last quarter because we lost that extra midfielder.
We almost lost the game because we didn't have that extra midfielder.

We lost Jack, a forward, who had little impact at three quarter time and gained O'Brien with a bit of run (but still not a great impact).
An extra midfielder may have been handy (who!!), but there were probably a few factors in the Geelong surge, some mental (I expected them to come at us, and the players probably had a few doubts when it got close.)
Anyway in the end we won, so it worked OK.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2023, 07:19:34 pm
Yep, but all have different roles and responsibilities.
So the stats are just a part of the story.
It will be interesting to see who, if any, does go out.
If Hewett doesn't come up, it may be no change.


Also, it should be noted that Jack only had 5 possessions in week 1 as 2nd ruck.
His 13 disposals this week was =most from that group....yet people are criticising his output.
If his 2 behinds ended up being 2 goals, he'd get in the votes!

Stats are part of it.
Other part is peoples perception.....thats what i'm questioning....their perception.

In terms of output....it was comparable to the other 2 rucks (obviously hitouts/clearances aside).
In terms of output....it was comparable to 3 other forwards.

I'm not saying he has been in great form. I'm not saying he is above scrutiny. I'm not saying that its impossible for him to be dropped.
I just think the criticism towards him seems a little bit over the top.

He would probably be one of the front runners to be dropped this week.....and i think it'll be a mistake if he does....but it shouldn't matter against GWS (i hope)

Last time we dropped Jack, we got thumped, we lacked heart and everyone said it was a mistake and he should never be dropped again. Maybe i'm the only one that remembers that.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2023, 07:28:10 pm
We lost Jack, a forward, who had little impact at three quarter time and gained O'Brien with a bit of run (but still not a great impact).
An extra midfielder may have been handy (who!!), but there were probably a few factors in the Geelong surge, some mental (I expected them to come at us, and the players probably had a few doubts when it got close.)
Anyway in the end we won, so it worked OK.

Maybe we should've played Dow?
Maybe we should've played a back and let Docherty play midfield?

Little impact? Possibly, but same impact as a few others who played the whole game. As i said, if his 2 behinds were 2 goals, he'd be a hero.

Obrien could've had the same impact (albeit not much) when we swapped out some other alternative.
BUT....the rest of our midfielders would've been fresher as the load would've been spread across another body prior to all of that.

So because we won, we don't need to review what went right and what went wrong?
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 27, 2023, 07:28:41 pm
Stats are part of it.
Other part is peoples perception.....thats what i'm questioning....their perception.

That's probably the heart of the disagreement
You're questioning the perception.
Others are questioning the importance you're assigning to the stats.
Both are part of the story.
How we see the game is often different to the statistical output and equally as valid (running to position, manning up, contesting, missing marks they'd normally take, applying pressure).

The reality is Jack's probably in the frame to be missing if we have another option.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 27, 2023, 07:45:44 pm
For the record Kruddler I am not suggesting dropping Jack. He is my first picked HFF.

I value him as much as anyone here except you as I think he $ucks as a ruckman.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 27, 2023, 07:46:42 pm
Cmon mate, follow along.

2 rucks + Jack + 21 others
1 ruck + jack + extra midfielder + 21 others.

Using Jack as the second ruckman allows us to play an extra midfielder.

Look at the ins/outs from last game

As far as team balance went it was....
Durdin in for Martin
Pittonet in for Hewitt.

The second ruck took the spot of the extra midfielder.
We tired in the last quarter because we lost that extra midfielder.
We almost lost the game because we didn't have that extra midfielder.

As I understand it now, your argument is that having Pittonet, De Koning  and Silvagni in the 22 means that we have one less midfielder.  In fact, our midfield rotations were reduced by Corey Durdin replacing Hewett.  Pittonet replaced Martin who rarely goes into the midfield.  Ed Curnow spent part of the Richmond game as a midfielder and most of the Geelong game in that role (with Durdin filling the vacant half forward spot).  In effect, we were around 0.5 of a midfielder down for the Geelong game but Docherty probably covered that.  Bringing O'Brien on actually meant that we had an extra midfielder in the last quarter for both games.

I couldn't see any evidence that we tired in the last quarter.  If anything, our energy levels across the board were superior to Geelong's in the last quarter.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 27, 2023, 08:25:57 pm
Chris Scott not happy with TDK's knee in the ruck.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 27, 2023, 09:28:37 pm
Chris Scott not happy with TDK's knee in the ruck.

Is Chris Scott ever happy with anything that doesn’t give his team an advantage?

I’ve watched it several times and it was clumsy at best on Tom’s part.  If Tom had leapt for the ball, Stanley would have taken his legs out and possibly caused serious injury.  Matty K must be teaching his charges how to look after themselves.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 27, 2023, 09:35:50 pm
Chris Scott not happy with TDK's knee in the ruck.
Coming from one of the tunnel twins we should be offended.

It's just a comment to gain advantage next time.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 27, 2023, 09:41:10 pm
Coming from one of the tunnel twins we should be offended.

It's just a comment to gain advantage next time.

He consistently makes public comments to advantage the Cats. Regardless of whether completely accurate or under investigation. Manipulative, entitled - comes to mind.

Who can forget his hysterics in the coaches box. He looked outraged when his boys are caught infringing as if it's an impossibility..
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: cookie2 on March 27, 2023, 10:42:58 pm
Not a lot of comment when Darcy took out Pitto with a very cynical piece of work. Did not even look at the ball from memory.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: blueday on March 27, 2023, 10:56:55 pm
Bearly a word about the Blues across the footy shows. We did just knock off the Premiers. The hate is strong.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: pinot on March 28, 2023, 12:16:08 am
Bearly a word about the Blues across the footy shows. We did just knock off the Premiers. The hate is strong.

Let them hate us providing they fear us.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Lods on March 28, 2023, 12:29:29 am
It's one of the problems with being the first game of the round on a Thursday night.
By the time the footy shows come around the memory has already faded. ::)
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Thryleon on March 28, 2023, 06:53:35 am
Bearly a word about the Blues across the footy shows. We did just knock off the Premiers. The hate is strong.
best way to get anywhere is flying under the radar.  Let others wear the premiership favourite monikers.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2023, 08:23:55 am
Bearly a word about the Blues across the footy shows. We did just knock off the Premiers. The hate is strong.

Good. Let our performances do the talking.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 28, 2023, 09:23:43 am
We were underdogs for both games and we walked away with 6 points with plenty of room for improvement. I'm happy with that.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 29, 2023, 10:45:17 am
Interesting to read that Scott The Tunnel King's attempt to stitch up TDK was dismissed by the tribunal just based on a written submission, segments of the media wanted TDK to lose games, and many chose to side with Scott.

Is the Scott career light fading so soon and quickly after a flag?

The whole saga again shows the weakness of the current MRP/Tribunal situation in particular the MRP. Defenders of the system will claim it has worked, but the reality is it should never have been a charge.

Accidents happen, players lose footing unexpectedly and suddenly end up in positions that are not natural with collisions occurring. It's bizarre the MRP thinks these events are sanctionable.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: DJC on March 29, 2023, 10:54:15 am
Interesting to read that Scott The Tunnel King's attempt to stitch up TDK was dismissed by the tribunal just based on a written submission, segments of the media wanted TDK to lose games, and many chose to side with Scott.

Is the Scott career light fading so soon and quickly after a flag?

The whole saga again shows the weakness of the current MRP/Tribunal situation in particular the MRP. Defenders of the system will claim it has worked, but the reality is it should never have been a charge.

Accidents happen, players lose footing unexpectedly and suddenly end up in positions that are not natural with collisions occurring. It's bizarre the MRP thinks these events are sanctionable.

A sound and logical outcome for once.

One may ask why the Pudden Head wasn't sanctioned for commenting on a MRP/Tribunal matter.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LoveNavy on March 29, 2023, 12:56:14 pm
A sound and logical outcome for once.

One may ask why the Pudden Head wasn't sanctioned for commenting on a MRP/Tribunal matter.

Great work by the club writing a successful submission. No doubt it'll get up the nose of the Carlton haters.

As for pudding face keeping it shut. That's never going to happen. He, and Danger for that matter, are serial offenders shooting off their mouths when others respect due process. Their behaviour confounds me.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: LP on March 29, 2023, 03:18:04 pm
Scott the Tunnel King shooting his mouth off is probably a sign the Handbaggers have given up hope of securing TDK for themselves, perhaps Dangerflog staying mum is a sign he still thinks they are in with a chance to unite Tom and Sam!
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2023, 11:40:06 am
Carlton v Geelong​
9 - Jeremy Cameron (GEEL)
9 - Charlie Curnow (CARL)
6 - Adam Saad (CARL)
2 - Ed Curnow (CARL)
2 - Jacob Weitering (CARL)
1 - Blake Acres (CARL)
1 - Isaac Smith (GEEL)

Cameron was BOG by a mile not sure what one of the coaches was thinking.

Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: Thryleon on March 31, 2023, 11:53:36 am
Carlton v Geelong​
9 - Jeremy Cameron (GEEL)
9 - Charlie Curnow (CARL)
6 - Adam Saad (CARL)
2 - Ed Curnow (CARL)
2 - Jacob Weitering (CARL)
1 - Blake Acres (CARL)
1 - Isaac Smith (GEEL)

Cameron was BOG by a mile not sure what one of the coaches was thinking.



Pretty hard to look past his performance as being dominant.  Without him, Geelong would have been creamed.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2023, 12:01:35 pm
Interesting stat.

McGovern and Pittonet had less game time than Silvagni who was subbed out. Pitt came as no surprise but didn't realize McGovern was on the bench that long.
Title: Re: AFL Rd 2 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Geelong
Post by: kruddler on March 31, 2023, 02:53:08 pm
Interesting stat.

McGovern and Pittonet had less game time than Silvagni who was subbed out. Pitt came as no surprise but didn't realize McGovern was on the bench that long.
Because we went too tall and they copped injuries to tall blokes.