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Topic: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 39253 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #60
I agree, but there are plenty of people complaining about his game and how Grundy flogged him etc etc.

One stat......one stat is all that is based on. Looking deeper into that stat shows how ineffective that stat actually is in terms of the game.

Yes, Grundy got A LOT more hitouts.....but most of them went to a 50-50 (at best). Regardless of where they went, we still won the clearances. So you can ignore that stat. You look at the other stats and Pittonet had his measure. Not bad for a retread up against the million dollar man.
Maybe vs Collingwood you have to have a dominant ruckman, given they have a respectable midfield so your mids have it easier.
Cripps 21, Williams 20, Martin 12 possies...you would be struggling to beat most teams with those stats, thats three million dollar men who couldnt get it done for us with a break even ruck. Pendlebury has been a brilliant player but is old now and has slowed up and Adams is very good but wouldnt be AA anytime soon, Sidebottom see Pendlebury and then you get down to Sier and the Brown kids, Daicos etc who probably had a nil all draw with our second tier mids.
Crisp did spend some time in he middle and got a lot of ball but again not a qualified mid who you would back in vs million dollar a year top shelf draft pick mids to get the job done in a big game.

It just points to a big fail from our million dollar mids....

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #61
Maybe vs Collingwood you have to have a dominant ruckman, given they have a respectable midfield so your mids have it easier.
Cripps 21, Williams 20, Martin 12 possies...you would be struggling to beat most teams with those stats, thats three million dollar men who couldnt get it done for us with a break even ruck. Pendlebury has been a brilliant player but is old now and has slowed up and Adams is very good but wouldnt be AA anytime soon, Sidebottom see Pendlebury and then you get down to Sier and the Brown kids, Daicos etc who probably had a nil all draw with our second tier mids.
Crisp did spend some time in he middle and got a lot of ball but again not a qualified mid who you would back in vs million dollar a year top shelf draft pick mids to get the job done in a big game.

It just points to a big fail from our million dollar mids....
All 3 of those mids you mentioned spent time up forward.

Overall, they bat deeper in the midfield too, which was probably our biggest problem.

Either way, it was not Pittonets doing like same have made out.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #62
All 3 of those mids you mentioned spent time up forward.

Overall, they bat deeper in the midfield too, which was probably our biggest problem.

Either way, it was not Pittonets doing like same have made out.
Under the 2021 rules the ruck is critical, so ruck has been a big part of the problem in both our games.

In the past I didn't give much credence to tap work, for me it was all about 2nd efforts, tackles, blocks and smoothers. Pittonet has done OK in the non-tap part of the gig in the past but not at the moment, and now the 2021 rules have made clean taps more critical than ever before for a double whammy!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #63
Under the 2021 rules the ruck is critical, so ruck has been a big part of the problem in both our games.

In the past I didn't give much credence to tap work, for me it was all about 2nd efforts, tackles, blocks and smoothers. Pittonet has done OK in the non-tap part of the gig in the past but not at the moment, and now the 2021 rules have made clean taps more critical than ever before for a double whammy!

Clearly you didn't read the stat breakdown i posted earlier.

One i forgot from that which EB kinda wanted.

Score Launches.
Pittonet - 4
Grundy - 5

Not bad considering 'how soundly he was beaten' by Grundy......or not.  :-[

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #64
The problem is the stats are only as good as the words that define them, I think some of the stats used in AFL are quite rubbery, they aren't black and white like say an injection count or a death.

Some are even ambiguous, like the Contested Marking stat, a Contested Mark is Contested Mark even if there is no physical contact, some of the ruck stats are equally ambiguous. So to me that means they can be taken many ways, in both analysis and assignment, which makes them useless in isolation.

Context is everything, it's no like Moneyball, that's a Hollywood Fantasy.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #65
The problem is the stats are only as good as the words that define them, I think some of the stats used in AFL are quite rubbery, they aren't black and white like say an injection count or a death.

Some are even ambiguous, like the Contested Marking stat, a Contested Mark is Contested Mark even if there is no physical contact, some of the ruck stats are equally ambiguous. So to me that means they can be taken many ways, in both analysis and assignment, which makes them useless in isolation.

Context is everything, it's no like Moneyball, that's a Hollywood Fantasy.

Yep, it's where the words 'effective' or 'to advantage' should be added to further qualify the legitimacy of the 'stat'.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #66
The old saying of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics definitely applies here. It comes down to the eye test and Pitonett was poor at centre bounces, Grundy got a lot of clean ball, which he hit away from the immediate area rather than at his hip.

Why does this matter? Well it takes Cripps out of the game. Cripps like to work in a phone booth, on that 1-2 square meters of space where he can use his size and strength to either get hands on the ball or tackle his opponent. What Grundy did by hitting it to space, gave the quicker and better drilled Collingwood mids space to run on to the ball, making Cripps near redundant as he doesn't have speed or explosiveness off the mark.

On a side note, in out two games we have had two periods where we have been dominant in play around the ground. Against Richmond it was the third quarter where we kicked all the points, but Richmond could barely get their hands on the ball. The other was the third/fourth quarter against Collingwood where we came right back and got to 7 points. Both times Cripps was up forward for most of the times, not in the midfield. This allowed our mids to match the opposition in speed and nullified their rucks hitting the ball out to space.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #67
The old saying of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics definitely applies here. It comes down to the eye test and Pitonett was poor at centre bounces, Grundy got a lot of clean ball, which he hit away from the immediate area rather than at his hip.

Why does this matter? Well it takes Cripps out of the game. Cripps like to work in a phone booth, on that 1-2 square meters of space where he can use his size and strength to either get hands on the ball or tackle his opponent. What Grundy did by hitting it to space, gave the quicker and better drilled Collingwood mids space to run on to the ball, making Cripps near redundant as he doesn't have speed or explosiveness off the mark.

On a side note, in out two games we have had two periods where we have been dominant in play around the ground. Against Richmond it was the third quarter where we kicked all the points, but Richmond could barely get their hands on the ball. The other was the third/fourth quarter against Collingwood where we came right back and got to 7 points. Both times Cripps was up forward for most of the times, not in the midfield. This allowed our mids to match the opposition in speed and nullified their rucks hitting the ball out to space.
Yep, but it's ironic how fans perceive stuff, they see what's going on and blame Cripps, but at least twice I saw Pittonet get free hands to the pill and hit it clear and forward of the stoppage, only to be mopped up by the Filth. While our blokes like Cripps and Walsh and others were at his feet.

I suppose that is a win "tap to advantage" stat for Pittonet, which is sort of the point some are making when you only look at the numbers! :o

But the bigger concern for me is who organised this tactic, who takes responsibility, the ruck or Barker and Stanton?

If mug punters are watching this and going WTF!, where does that leave our coaching panel?
The Force Awakens!

The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #68
There is a lot of discussion around footy circles about how teams don't need dominant ruckmen like they may have a decade ago. We have gone down the path of using undersized Jack Silvagni as a stop-gap measure too. On the flipside, the Dees added Grundy to tag-team with Gawn which gives them a clear advantage at stoppages and around the ground.

A while ago, we had four reasonable big men (Kreuzer, Hampson, Jacobs & Warnock) but traded out the one we should have kept & kept the ones we should have traded.

Given I'm an old coot, I prefer the bigger dominant ruck plan to all other possible options so I'm putting the microscope on what we currently have on the list. To be brutally honest, I'm not convinced we have what it takes right now and it may hold us back from really challenging.

Tom De Koning - is he a forward or is a he ruckman ?? He has some serious limitations in his game and tends to spoil Curnow & McKay in marking contests. Should he be traded ?? I'm leaning towards "yes", I'm not convinced he is going to be any better than what we are seeing right now and he certainly isn't worth the crazy money that is being bandied about in the media. The scuttlebutt suggests we are going to sign him for another two-years though.

Marc Pittonet - doesn't take enough marks around the ground and is a horrible kick, his tap work is 'okay' but nothing startling. In a perfect world, he should be in the VFL all year and only called up in emergencies.

Hudson O'Keefe - a raw beanpole project ruck who will probably take some time to kick on, great that the club has invested in a long-term plan but he will not play seniors unless there is a spate of serious injuries.

Alex Mirkov - another beanpole (210cm) project ruck who apparently is coming on quite well but is still a fair way away from being seniors ready.

Anyone share similiar views or are they content with what we have at present ??
"The Other Teams Can Rot In Hell"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #69
I think Melbounre are pretty much the only team with 2 A grade ruckmen. Gawn has been there since he was a kid, and Grundy was traded in, with the Pies supposedly paying part of his wages, and Grundy also supposedly taking a pay cut.

I think Pittonet + DeKoning is as good a ruck combo as any apart from Melbourne. DeKoning is still raw, but he will be a player IMO. I want to keep him. Pittonet is a bit of a lumbering giant around the ground, but his ruck work is pretty good. If we could get a Sean Darcy type without breaking the bank, I'd be keen, but I'd be trading Pittonet, not De Koning. I don't think it's a good idea to tie up big chunks of the cap on ruckmen.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #70
Problem is though Paulie, we all know De Koning is going to command big money in this upcoming contract renewal.
"The Other Teams Can Rot In Hell"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #71
Problem is though Paulie, we all know De Koning is going to command big money in this upcoming contract renewal.

I guess so, but it's up to him and the club to come up with something that is acceptable to both. If not, then I guess he walks. Bearing in mind the usual caveats about believing the media, the last reports I read (about 7 days ago) states that club and player are "moving closer" to finalising a 2 year deal.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #72
Geelong won a flag with a C grade ruckman who in a previous life was a CHF at Stkilda plus an all-rounder athlete in Blicavs.
Their opponents last year had a journeyman ruckman who filled in for Grundy and exceeded expectation plus a rookie from the USA with eye problems who also doubled as a KP forward.
You don't over pay for ruckman contract wise or waste early picks on them either.
I'f TDK wants two years to establish himself for better offers elsewhere then I'd be testing the trade market and he can use another club for his personal ambitions and we can look for a cheaper alternative that can emulate what Cameron and Stanley have provided...

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #73
@ElwoodBlues1 But the Handbaggers also had as backups Ceglar, Neale, Hawkins and Ratugolea rucking at various times in various zones, all of them stitch up our SoJ who is our backup for Pitto and TDK.
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Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #74
The two years for DeKoning is perfect for both player and club.
We'll know his real worth by then. ;)
Silvagni should never ruck again, we have other jobs for him.