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Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #75
That being said back to the war for a moment.  I believe it's easy for the Russian people to get behind the war in Ukraine because they will feel its their own land been taken off them since whenever.  I state this because I know of people who would be of the same opinion pretty much in a half a dozen countries with a portion who might consider themselves an independent nation.  It would be viewed the same globally, taking back whats rightfully theirs, irrespective of what the rest of the world thinks about it.  When you recognise this factor its easier to understand why this happens.  That doesn't make it right either.  These mentalities are not about right or wrong.  National identity.  Etc.  They are very much an opinion.  China and Taiwan is the same.  An opinion that one nation is separate to the other.  The fact the world recognises it is largely political and a collection of opinions designed to favour an outcome that isn't always clear to the rest of us.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #76
Ukraine war was sold to the Russian people as Putin coming to the aid of ethnic/pro Russian folk in the border regions who he said were being poorly treated and he was going to their rescue.
Hitler used the same marketing 101 tactics when he invaded Poland and that he was looking after/saving ethnic Germans who were being oppressed..

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #77
Ukraine war was sold to the Russian people as Putin coming to the aid of ethnic/pro Russian folk in the border regions who he said were being poorly treated and he was going to their rescue.
Hitler used the same marketing 101 tactics when he invaded Poland and that he was looking after/saving ethnic Germans who were being oppressed..

These all run into a deeper level of ethnic pride and is easy for a nation to get behind until it turns out to be a strategic loser. 

Be it Greece marching onto izmir post world war 1, or if Catalonia broke away from Spain and was then invaded by Spain, there would be enough proponents of ethnic pride that would easily sway the people.

Personally im convinced that just like all these other wars in the region like Syria, Libya etc, where we find out later that the strategic planning of Ukraine's defense and counter offensive has been conducted by third parties and that this has been a war by proxy of other nations and their interests in ensuring Ukraine doesn't slip into Russian hands.  Why is not really a questionfor me, as I dont really have a vested interest.

I'm more curious about what this all means for the future of the region.  I stopped looking at these conflicts in isolation a long time ago because they seem to raise and re raise their heads over and over again and are invariably history repeating.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #78
That being said back to the war for a moment.  I believe it's easy for the Russian people to get behind the war in Ukraine because they will feel its their own land been taken off them since whenever.  I state this because I know of people who would be of the same opinion pretty much in a half a dozen countries with a portion who might consider themselves an independent nation.  It would be viewed the same globally, taking back whats rightfully theirs, irrespective of what the rest of the world thinks about it.  When you recognise this factor its easier to understand why this happens.  That doesn't make it right either.  These mentalities are not about right or wrong.  National identity.  Etc.  They are very much an opinion.  China and Taiwan is the same.  An opinion that one nation is separate to the other.  The fact the world recognises it is largely political and a collection of opinions designed to favour an outcome that isn't always clear to the rest of us.

You are correct that a lot of people consider Ukraine to be Russian land and if you go back to the origins of Russia, Kiev was the 2nd capital (after Novgorod, which was the original capital of Rurik). Of course the Kievan Rus was in fact a different country from what Russia is now and there was no Moscow, but then the 3rd capital of the Kievan Rus was in modern day Romania.
The thing with Russia is, if there is a land they have ever conquered they consider it theirs in perpetuity and it is sold to them that this was stolen from them. Many Russians don't consider that Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia have a right to independence and Russia was robbed of these territories when Gorbachev betrayed the nation. Of course this is all ridiculous, because if they want to go through historical ownership of lands, then all of Eastern Russia should be handed back to the locals such as Dagestan, Circassia, Chechnya etc and of course Kalingrad should not be Russian either.
It really is a completely dystopian world in Russia and yes you are right it is very easy for Russians to get behind whatever the Government tells them, especially when the "scholar" Putin publishes articles such as this
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

Of course it is a distortion of facts and incomplete, but to the average Russian this is a faithful and complete retelling of history.

 
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL


Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #79
Ukraine war was sold to the Russian people as Putin coming to the aid of ethnic/pro Russian folk in the border regions who he said were being poorly treated and he was going to their rescue.
Hitler used the same marketing 101 tactics when he invaded Poland and that he was looking after/saving ethnic Germans who were being oppressed..

Of course he used the same playbook in Sutendland in Czechoslovakia. In Czech these were Austro-Hungarian lands with a large portion in the border regions that spoke German and it was these German speaking people that Hitler wanted to "rescue". Putin of course told lies that Russians could not speak Russian in Ukraine, they were being beaten and murdered just for the use of this language. It is true of course that there was in some areas conflicts over the use of Russian, but it was blown completely out of proportion as is the way with propaganda. It helped the Russian cause as well that Ukraine passed a series of laws that allowed Russia to seize on this "russophobia", I think in hindsight a number of these laws were not very well thought out.

But like all things it is a convenient half truth as Russia has suppressed many languages and cultures over time, including Ukrainians who had their language banned a number of times when under the control of the Russian Empire and again during the USSR. They also suppressed Jews and the Hebrew language, the Tartars, the Caucasians etc etc. Now of course the average Russian knows very little about any of this, because it is not taught in history in the schools, the only thing talked about is the russophobia and how disgusting it is when a culture (change to The Russian Culture) is suppressed. 
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL


Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #80
Why would anyone station troops next to an ammo dump? After the Russians lost somewhere between 63 and 400 troops by doing so, I expected Lavrov to accuse the Ukrainians of war crimes. How dare they bomb military targets? The Russians don’t do that.

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #81
There has been discussion around Putin being ill and who would be his replacement, one person who without any doubt is trying to muscle into a position to take power is Prighozin

Following is his comments around the closure of Youtube in Russia.
If you look at his comments (the website is in Russian, but the using an index like Yandex Translate will give the most accurate translation), it becomes very obvious that Russia is hurtling back towards the days of the USSR. It was already heading steadily in this direction and whilst it won't have any of the benefits of a communist state, it is going to towards total control and make look to end up blocking the borders to stop people leaving.

https://lenta.ru/news/2023/01/18/prigozhin_yout/

The following is an example of the types of prisoners they are released to fight and  will now be released back into society, because if they agreed to kill Ukrainians they deserve to be free.

https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-64178320

Prighozin is quite possibly the most dangerous man in Russia and if he took over Russia after Putin, that would put him as the most dangerous man in the world. The reports that are coming out of Ukraine of the way he is using the prisoners is an example of just how brutal he is. One example is that they are basically sent forward in numbers to be shot and killed, if they take a backwards step or drop to take cover instead of moving forward, the Wagner mercenaries shoot them as a warning to others. The idea is that buy moving forward they can uncover the positions of the Ukrainian shooting at the "bait".

Now I generally don't have a lot of pity for people like the guy mentioned in the article above as I think he deserves to rot in jail, but no one deserves to be used as human bait, it is just barbaric.




Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL


Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #82
That is barbaric.

On a seperate but related topic, is there any real benefit in removing the flags of Russian athletes at the Australian Open?

Whilst I understand that we are doing this to show solidarity, I saw a facebook debate recently where some fans of the Russian players brought flags into the stadium and there was a bit of outrage about it.

Sure the opponent to the Russian player was Ukrainian, and Tennis Australia's official stance has been to remove Russian flags next to the players (they do represent themselves after all and not nations in these tournaments) but when I saw the response re fans not showing respect by carrying the Russian flag in support of the Russian opponent.

Now whilst I can appreciate that this is an inflammatory situation, how do we feel about this?  Should people not be able to support a Russian athlete at the Australian open?

I found myself wondering why the backlash.  There will always be the idea that someone is unhappy to see a flag of another nation somewhere, but provided they arent making a political statement with it, or that flag doesnt represent something like the Nazi flag (without having a better example off the top of my head at the minute) shouldnt this be fair play?

Just curious, and checking what people's thought process is here. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #83
I heard one of the flag wavers on the wireless.  He said that he was opposed to the invasion of Ukraine but waving the Russian flag was meant to represent all of the good things about Russia.  He sounded genuine but what relevance does that have to supporting a tennis player.  I imagine that the Ukrainian player wouldn't have been thrilled to see the invader's flag.

Open Tennis is not a team sport and players' countries of origin aren't really relevant.  I would ban all national flags from the Australian Open and remove all references to players' countries of origin.  The Davis, Hopman and Billie Jean King Cups are a different kettle of worms and supporting national teams is the name of the game.

PS St Kilda changed its colours from red, yellow and black during World War One.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #84
I heard one of the flag wavers on the wireless.  He said that he was opposed to the invasion of Ukraine but waving the Russian flag was meant to represent all of the good things about Russia.  He sounded genuine but what relevance does that have to supporting a tennis player.  I imagine that the Ukrainian player wouldn't have been thrilled to see the invader's flag.

Open Tennis is not a team sport and players' countries of origin aren't really relevant.  I would ban all national flags from the Australian Open and remove all references to players' countries of origin.  The Davis, Hopman and Billie Jean King Cups are a different kettle of worms and supporting national teams is the name of the game.

PS St Kilda changed its colours from red, yellow and black during World War One.
And then Germany changed its colours to black, red and yellow. I always wondered about that.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #85
Have you noticed the Taiwanese players have been forced to play under the Chinese Taipei banner and the flag is a weird squiggle on a white flag? That’s the flag Taiwan is allowed to compete under at the Olympics to keep China happy.

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #86
Now whilst I can appreciate that this is an inflammatory situation, how do we feel about this?  Should people not be able to support a Russian athlete at the Australian open?

I found myself wondering why the backlash.  There will always be the idea that someone is unhappy to see a flag of another nation somewhere, but provided they arent making a political statement with it, or that flag doesnt represent something like the Nazi flag (without having a better example off the top of my head at the minute) shouldnt this be fair play?

Just curious, and checking what people's thought process is here. 

Personally I understand it, but I don't really like it either (banning flags).
I think the problem is that either way there is the potential for one of 2 groups to be ostracized and that the Aus Open (and other events) need to decide which group will be impacted.

It is true that Russians should be able to support Russian athletes with pride, they should be able to show pride in their heritage and their homeland without prejudice and supporting the Russian flag is different to supporting the Z symbol or even the Soviet flag which would be inappropriate as it could be used to insinuate that Moscow should control Kiev.

However what is probable is that a lot of people would use these flags as a symbol of aggression as well towards Ukrainian players and this is unacceptable. Already a number of Ukrainians have indicated they didn't even want to face a Russian athlete and this situation is, of course, understandable, but then seeing the flag of the aggressor that is raising their flag above your cities after killing your citizens, is really intolerable.

Perhaps the Australian Open (and other events) could consider are more measured approach and allow the Russian flag to be displayed only in games with Russian competitors and only when a Ukrainian is not one of the players on the court. Whilst Ukrainians would rather see the flag totally banished, I personally in a nation of free speech (with the exception of hate speech etc), would prefer to see this approach, which respects both the feelings of Ukrainian athletes and the rights of the spectators.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL


Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #87
Mi1, AO has nothing to do with nationalities, they are all individual athletes and they should be supported and demonised on their merits.
Let’s go BIG !

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #88
Absolutely the same as in many sports, but in most sports Russian and Belorussian athletes need to play under a neutral flag, which they are doing in all tennis events.
This doesn't stop patriotic supporters displaying flags to support their countrymen and women.
All of which is quite reasonable, but this conflict creates a most unusual circumstance requiring an unusual response.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL


Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #89
Pride is a deadly sin.

Pride in ones country is something that can be had without forcing it upon others with the introduction of a flag. This is where the issue is.

Support your player, but just like the US and Old Glory, shoving your national flag in peoples faces constantly will lead to issues and it all stems back to pride.

Read the room at least.