Carlton Supporters Club

Some of us are beginning to seriously doubt that BB is the man to take this group forward, to the next step, if you like.

Some of us are happy to trust BB with our future (those words made me shudder!). I guess this thread is to give voice to those who believe change is worth considering.

I'll put my two bobs worth forward. I have grave concerns that BB is not the man from here on. He seems to lack imagination and creativity with his coaching, no 'brand' if you will. And opposition coaches seem to out coach him week in, week out.

I believe BB was the right person to 'sweet talk' us through the rebuild but now we need someone with strong experience. When I hear BB is BBQing and driving home with players, and falling in love with the players I just shake my head... reactive stuff (heard about Buckley and Co and decided to emulate... )

But who? Well, for those of us believing change at the top of the coaching tree should be considered and discussed.. who springs to mind? I'd probably put Teague in the top job soon, see how he does, and consider who takes over from next year.

Walls.   Toughen them up.

Baggers if you're going to start this kind thread, at least put down who you believe is the right choice. Listing Teague as the caretaker is non-commital.

Personally I think we need to stick it out with Bolts. Richmond supporters wanted Hardwick’s head on a plate only 3 seasons ago, ditto Collingwood supporters and Buckley. Coaches learn from mistakes and Bolts will do the same. If we went with someone new, it would be a rookie coach, time has shown the recycled coaches don’t seem to measure up these days, so i’d rather stick with the rookie we have.

Personally I think we need to stick it out with Bolts. Richmond supporters wanted Hardwick’s head on a plate only 3 seasons ago, ditto Collingwood supporters and Buckley. Coaches learn from mistakes and Bolts will do the same. If we went with someone new, it would be a rookie coach, time has shown the recycled coaches don’t seem to measure up these days, so i’d rather stick with the rookie we have.

Yes, that's the conclusion I came to as well. If there was an instant fix then great, but that simply isn't reality.

Personally I think we need to stick it out with Bolts. Richmond supporters wanted Hardwick’s head on a plate only 3 seasons ago, ditto Collingwood supporters and Buckley. Coaches learn from mistakes and Bolts will do the same. If we went with someone new, it would be a rookie coach, time has shown the recycled coaches don’t seem to measure up these days, so i’d rather stick with the rookie we have.

Yes, great post as usual Miss Maven. I have no idea whether Bolts will work out or not, but it's crazy to change now, on what appears to be speculation and supposition and very little else.

Baggers if you're going to start this kind thread, at least put down who you believe is the right choice. Listing Teague as the caretaker is non-commital.

Longmire or Clarkson or Simpson or ... I'm not attached to who, simply someone with experience and some measure of success behind them. I suspect there are others who are aware of potential suitors.

Personally I think we need to stick it out with Bolts. Richmond supporters wanted Hardwick’s head on a plate only 3 seasons ago, ditto Collingwood supporters and Buckley. Coaches learn from mistakes and Bolts will do the same. If we went with someone new, it would be a rookie coach, time has shown the recycled coaches don’t seem to measure up these days, so i’d rather stick with the rookie we have.

Totally understand your point and have thought the same thing, but, the blokes you mentioned did have success in their early years, not earth shattering but enough to tell you that they could handle the job. They needed to make only minor changes to their styles to take the next step to premiership contention. We're a thousand miles from a step into finals contention.

I would love for BB to be the man, but sheesh, there's nothing to suggest or encourage optimism. I might be way off beam and the only person who believes we're deeper in sh1te than people believe but I can only express my heartfelt belief. Like all of us here, I love the place. The CFC is a part of my family, an important part... but sadly, I've not seen enough to suggest the bloke can Captain our ship, perfect for the first couple of years... yep.

Longmire or Clarkson or Simpson or ... I'm not attached to who, simply someone with experience and some measure of success behind them. I suspect there are others who are aware of potential suitors.

Knowing our influential supporters we will end up with Loss Ryon.

I'm not sure of the message,  but whatever message it is, it ain't getting through to the troops.  The blame lies with both parties.

Don't think we'll be changing coaches yet - BB is safe until the end of the year imo. Beyond that - not sure, depends on how things pan out.

Longmire or Clarkson or Simpson or ... I'm not attached to who, simply someone with experience and some measure of success behind them. I suspect there are others who are aware of potential suitors.

Come on Shano, this is page 1 of the John Elliott, Old Carlton playbook. Which has been tried and failed, not once (Pagan) but twice (Malthouse).

Knowing our influential supporters we will end up with Loss Ryon.

Well he'd want to show more re developing his young squad at Freo. But yes, there is connection between Ross and the Judge and SOS.

No obvious replacement for Bolton unless you want the Judge and SOS getting their mate Ross Lyon over from Freo.... :o

If we don't stick with Bolton it has to be an 'opposite'.
Someone who has tasted success as a coach  at a pretty high level....at least finals.

Look, This thread has been coming...I'm surprised it's taken this long.
But before we sink this experiment, and it will be a dramatic and traumatic sinking, I'd like to see us get a win and see what happens from there.

Folks are right
We're in a rut, where winning has become this foreign thing, and it's feeding on itself.
If we were to pull off a win and then follow it up it may be just the tonic we need to kick start this rebuild.
The fear is that it will only take a really bad loss or two and the move towards change will be irreversible.

Agree, Principal LODS. I think I said before the first game that this group needs a big win, a real 'kill', and you're right, it might be the tonic that gets the ball rolling. Man I hope so.

What little confidence we have is so brittle, easily broken. Longmire dismantled us quite easily today, and too many who coach against BB are able to do the same. This is one of my main wants for a more experienced senior coach... someone who can immediately identify the opposition coach's moves and be able to counteract, or believe holding course will do the trick or ...whatever.

If we don't stick with Bolton it has to be an 'opposite'.
Someone who has tasted success as a coach  at a pretty high level....at least finals.

Look, This thread has been coming...I'm surprised it's taken this long.
But before we sink this experiment, and it will be a dramatic and traumatic sinking, I'd like to see us get a win and see what happens from there.

Folks are right
We're in a rut, where winning has become this foreign thing, and it's feeding on itself.
If we were to pull off a win and then follow it up it may be just the tonic we need to kick start this rebuild.
The fear is that it will only take a really bad loss or two and the move towards change will be irreversible.

One win vs a struggling team we are meant to beat in GC wont change much...Bolton needs some big scalps and needs to score some victories of his own in the coaching box
where tactically he has proven to be lacking hence we have this farcical arrangement with Walls as a silent mentor.
I'd be changing the support crew...its obvious that Brett Ratten has been a real plus for Richo at the Saints and we need a class assistant to take over some of the main tasks especially planning and tactics.

I guess the problem is

We've tried transitioning an assistant into the senior role. (Brittain)
We've tried the supercoach (Pagan)
We've given the job to a passionate favourite son (Ratten)
Back to the supercoach to take us that final step (Malthouse)….and then levelled the joint and rebuilt it with a promising youngster with a good assistant reputation. (Bolton)

Now if this doesn't work...
Where do we go from here...and more importantly how do we take the members and supporters with us....because their faith will be severely dented, and trust gone.
A coach will never get the same latitude to rebuild again.

One win vs a struggling team we are meant to beat in GC wont change much...Bolton needs some big scalps and needs to score some victories of his own in the coaching box
where tactically he has proven to be lacking hence we have this farcical arrangement with Walls as a silent mentor.
I'd be changing the support crew...its obvious that Brett Ratten has been a real plus for Richo at the Saints and we need a class assistant to take over some of the main tasks especially planning and tactics.

No one win won't...it would have to be a win that triggered a series of wins.

Personally I think we need to stick it out with Bolts. Richmond supporters wanted Hardwick’s head on a plate only 3 seasons ago, ditto Collingwood supporters and Buckley. Coaches learn from mistakes and Bolts will do the same. If we went with someone new, it would be a rookie coach, time has shown the recycled coaches don’t seem to measure up these days, so i’d rather stick with the rookie we have.

Spot on, people are simply running out of patience and as Pauly said pulling out the John Elliott Play Book. Sure, the losses are patience sapping, but we need to stay the course. The signs are there, we just need to do it for longer periods. If our board jumps at the shadows and gets Ross Lyon, that will be the end for me.

I guess the problem is

We've tried transitioning an assistant into the senior role. (Brittain)
We've tried the supercoach (Pagan)
We've given the job to a passionate favourite son (Ratten)
Back to the supercoach to take us that final step (Malthouse)….and then levelled the joint and rebuilt it with a promising youngster with a good assistant reputation. (Bolton)

Now if this doesn't work...
Where do we go from here...and more importantly how do we take the members and supporters with us....because their faith will be severely dented, and trust gone.
A coach will never get the same latitude to rebuild again.

Starting with Parkin, the pattern has been : experienced / rookie / experienced / rookie / experienced / rookie. I guess after Bolton we need an old geezer to keep the streak alive. But this time, we should do it properly. Get Barassi. He's old enough, successful enough, and I believe can deliver a good spray. To quote the title of a Fauves album, The Young Need Discipline !

Starting with Parkin, the pattern has been : experienced / rookie / experienced / rookie / experienced / rookie. I guess after Bolton we need an old geezer to keep the streak alive. But this time, we should do it properly. Get Barassi. He's old enough, successful enough, and I believe can deliver a good spray. To quote the title of a Fauves album, The Young Need Discipline !

To go further, it was two stubborn dinosaurs well past their best and two coaches that had played the same amount of AFL footy as all of us on here............none! The one younger rookie coach who had played did a good job and for the only time in the last 18 years.

There's a bit more to the pattern.

Spot on, people are simply running out of patience and as Pauly said pulling out the John Elliott Play Book. Sure, the losses are patience sapping, but we need to stay the course. The signs are there, we just need to do it for longer periods. If our board jumps at the shadows and gets Ross Lyon, that will be the end for me.

No signs. It's the same as it was at the start of the rebuild. Lots of honorables losses and not much else. Nothing's changed. Just not winning 4th year in.

Doubt we get Ross Lyon.

No signs. It's the same as it was at the start of the rebuild. Lots of honorables losses and not much else. Nothing's changed. Just not winning 4th year in.

Doubt we get Ross Lyon.

Wrong. A lot has changed.

The personnel have changed. What we have now has a lot more scope to improve over what we had before.

To come at it from a different point of view..
Its like we have a sore leg, are options are to take some drugs that will most likely fix it.
or
Have it amputated and never have to worry about it again.

We took the drugs 5 minutes ago and it hasn't worked immediately so we wanna switch and get our leg amputated.  Slight overreaction don't you think? Perhaps we should give it some time to let the drugs work?

Keep in mind Bolton is working with at least a 25% new least each year.

Yeah Ratten did okay, having one of the greatest players of all time helped.

SOS needs to recruit a gun next year, it's the right time.

Wrong. A lot has changed.

The personnel have changed. What we have now has a lot more scope to improve over what we had before.

To come at it from a different point of view..
Its like we have a sore leg, are options are to take some drugs that will most likely fix it.
or
Have it amputated and never have to worry about it again.

We took the drugs 5 minutes ago and it hasn't worked immediately so we wanna switch and get our leg amputated.  Slight overreaction don't you think? Perhaps we should give it some time to let the drugs work?

Keep in mind Bolton is working with at least a 25% new least each year.

This is the 4th year in. 3 wins in 35, non discernible game plan, poorly drilled is simply not good enough. 4th year in you should at least have the building blocks of that. Not even close. We haven't improved at all. 4th year you should be looking at top 10, no ifs or buts.

Yeah Ratten did okay, having one of the greatest players of all time helped.

SOS needs to recruit a gun next year, it's the right time.

One player isn't going to change things to that extent no matter how good they are. Ratten did very well. Compared to everyone else he stands out like  beacon this century. Can't beat the scoreboard.

Anyway, I agree...gun time!!!!

This is the 4th year in. 3 wins in 35, non discernible game plan, poorly drilled is simply not good enough. 4th year in you should at least have the building blocks of that. Not even close. We haven't improved at all. 4th year you should be looking at top 10, no ifs or buts.

Well we've established that you can count years he's been in the job.

Now lets see if you can count players on the list that Bolton hasn't coached before this season.

It is a DIFFERENT list to what we had 3 years ago, 2 years ago.....last year!

We are a much younger, much different side to what we had 3 years ago.


As for the game plan. What is it?

People always point to 'the game plan' when a team is losing. Only time anyone has had any idea about what the game plan is was when Mick was coach and it was highly publicised in the media re going along the boundary line. People hung onto that fact and kept rolling it out ad nauseum, despite the fact he changed the game plan after round 3.

So, you want to complain about it, define what it is. Or better yet, tell us how you know it is not working.

As i said, we lost because we missed the big sticks. I'm sure its not in his game plan  to kick behinds instead of goals, so maybe the game plan isn't the problem?

Let’s say we do swing the axe.

Who are the options to take over next year?

Apart from Ross Lyon it’s hard to see any established coach coming over. And I think there is consensus that we don’t want Lyon.

Whoever we get as senior coach I’m hoping we hire Luke Hodge as ‘conditioning’ coach if he retires. Mental conditioning that is. We need to harden up.

If we sack the coach I'll cancel my membership.

The organisation needs to take a good hard look at itself before looking for a scapegoat.

If we sack the coach I'll cancel my membership.

The organisation needs to take a good hard look at itself before looking for a scapegoat.

Cats nearly sacked Bomber after we belted them at Optus back in the day. Set up a dynasty starting from the next season.

Hardwick and the entire board at Tigerland was nearly thrown out the door, but less than 12 months later they had a flag.

Buckley was all but sacked this time last year but pies were 1 kick away from ultimate glory.


If you are going to go down the rebuild path, don't jump at shadows. It takes time. Stay the course, its a long game we are playing.

Cats nearly sacked Bomber after we belted them at Optus back in the day. Set up a dynasty starting from the next season.

Hardwick and the entire board at Tigerland was nearly thrown out the door, but less than 12 months later they had a flag.

Buckley was all but sacked this time last year but pies were 1 kick away from ultimate glory.


If you are going to go down the rebuild path, don't jump at shadows. It takes time. Stay the course, its a long game we are playing.

Bolton is safe as there are no standout alternatives......

Cats nearly sacked Bomber after we belted them at Optus back in the day. Set up a dynasty starting from the next season.

Hardwick and the entire board at Tigerland was nearly thrown out the door, but less than 12 months later they had a flag.

Buckley was all but sacked this time last year but pies were 1 kick away from ultimate glory.


If you are going to go down the rebuild path, don't jump at shadows. It takes time. Stay the course, its a long game we are playing.

Yep.  Sacking coaches achieves nothing but masking problems.  New coach comes in, everyone gets a shot in the arm, things improve temporarily until it gets hard and reality hits, and that's all she wrote.  Then we start sacking players again until the new coach loses the group and everyone calls it a giant waste of their time and wants to leave.

Where have I heard this story again???

Yep.  Sacking coaches achieves nothing but masking problems.  New coach comes in, everyone gets a shot in the arm, things improve temporarily until it gets hard and reality hits, and that's all she wrote.  Then we start sacking players again until the new coach loses the group and everyone calls it a giant waste of their time and wants to leave.

Where have I heard this story again???

That's rubbish.  There are many examples on elite sport where sacking the coach gets an immediate result, and along term one at that.  The key is picking a good replacement.  Bolton is a goose and should go right now.

Knowing our influential supporters we will end up with Loss Ryon.

YEP we will.

Looking at our coaching staff I may concede its not all Bolton, but we really need to upgrade some of our assistants.

Consider the midfield coaches of some of the best performing teams in recent years:
Collingwood - Rob Harvey
GWS - Lenny Hayes
West Coast - Nathan Van Berlo (with Hickmott)
Geelong - Nigel Lappin
Hawthorn - Scott Burns last year, Sam Mitchell this year.

We seem to have a more complicated structure of Barker as stoppages coach, Cameron Bruce as midfield coach and Brent Stanton as midfield development coach.

I really wish we had managed to coax Sam Mitchell to Carlton when he announced he was moving back to Melbourne. We need some better mentors for the young brigade we are bringing through.

For all his faults and short comings, I’d much rather have Bolton speaking on behalf of my club than the perpetual whinger Hardwick. How dumb is he!! Complain about treatment to your pinup boy when you’re winning, not when you lose because you look like a mega sook. ‘Protect the playmakers!’ Great Dimma, just include ALL playmakers like Danger, Cripps, Fyffe, Sloane etc not just Mr Precious who can’t handle a strong tag!! Bolton never uses those excuses (eg yesterday’s presser and the Jones question). He has every right to complain especially about the Cripps treatment, but he doesn’t. He throws the onus back on the players. Pi55 off Dimma, you are nothing more than a front runner coach who had a dream run and can’t handle it when the temperature is turned up in the kitchen!!!

For all his faults and short comings, I’d much rather have Bolton speaking on behalf of my club than the perpetual whinger Hardwick. How dumb is he!! Complain about treatment to your pinup boy when you’re winning, not when you lose because you look like a mega sook. ‘Protect the playmakers!’ Great Dimma, just include ALL playmakers like Danger, Cripps, Fyffe, Sloane etc not just Mr Precious who can’t handle a strong tag!! Bolton never uses those excuses (eg yesterday’s presser and the Jones question). He has every right to complain especially about the Cripps treatment, but he doesn’t. He throws the onus back on the players. Pi55 off Dimma, you are nothing more than a front runner coach who had a dream run and can’t handle it when the temperature is turned up in the kitchen!!!

Agree. Now that the green shoots etc. are out of the way (maybe for good), I like the new Bolts and the way he conducts his pressers. Hopefully the umps are paying close attention and will give us the rub of the green on 50/50 decisions.  :D

Agree. Now that the green shoots etc. are out of the way (maybe for good), I like the new Bolts and the way he conducts his pressers. Hopefully the umps are paying close attention and will give us the rub of the green on 50/50 decisions.  :D

Bolton's pressers like his coaching lack imagination and are full of well worn cliches that frankly most off us are sick of hearing.
Working hard on Tuesday and Thursday is what I expect after any game not just a loss....
Even the questions posed to Bolton are just Dorothy Dix nuffy stuff that most of us could answer......are we that bad that even journo's cant be bothered asking anything that
might get a negative reaction?....
Give the fans something, some hope...not we are working hard on the track, not we are challenging ourselves etc etc.......

Bolton's pressers like his coaching lack imagination and are full of well worn cliches that frankly most off us are sick of hearing.
Working hard on Tuesday and Thursday is what I expect after any game not just a loss....
Even the questions posed to Bolton are just Dorothy Dix nuffy stuff that most of us could answer......are we that bad that even journo's cant be bothered asking anything that
might get a negative reaction?....
Give the fans something, some hope...not we are working hard on the track, not we are challenging ourselves etc etc.......

Are you basing this on the latest presser, after the Swans game ? If so, what I heard was very different to what you write.

Yep.  Sacking coaches achieves nothing but masking problems.  New coach comes in, everyone gets a shot in the arm, things improve temporarily until it gets hard and reality hits, and that's all she wrote.  Then we start sacking players again until the new coach loses the group and everyone calls it a giant waste of their time and wants to leave.

Where have I heard this story again???

When you've won 3 from 35, 15 from 69, you don't leave things the same. Unless of course, you like losing.

We were in the finals 2 years after sacking Pagan, after being close the first year. Hinkley turned Port around immediately after Primus, miserably failed, Beveridge won a flag 2 years after McCartney struggled badly.

For all his faults and short comings, I’d much rather have Bolton speaking on behalf of my club than the perpetual whinger Hardwick. How dumb is he!! Complain about treatment to your pinup boy when you’re winning, not when you lose because you look like a mega sook. ‘Protect the playmakers!’ Great Dimma, just include ALL playmakers like Danger, Cripps, Fyffe, Sloane etc not just Mr Precious who can’t handle a strong tag!! Bolton never uses those excuses (eg yesterday’s presser and the Jones question). He has every right to complain especially about the Cripps treatment, but he doesn’t. He throws the onus back on the players. Pi55 off Dimma, you are nothing more than a front runner coach who had a dream run and can’t handle it when the temperature is turned up in the kitchen!!!

Give me a whinger who wins.

Wonder what Wallsy's report card on BB is saying? If Wallsy is the authority he is supposed to be, I would expect some real insights to be fed to both BB and upwards to the  board.

Townsend...agree his post-match press conferences are better than Hardwick's and not looking for excuses...but the fact remains that 90% of the them are after a loss and most of us are a bit over hearing the same stuff with just different cliches. I'm concerned at what looks like the stalled development of our kids. Is it the coaching...impossible to say from the outside? But we simply have far too many top end draft pick players to NOT be showing much in the way of improvements. There's glimpses but yesterday was just a repeat of the first two rounds....one or maybe two competitive quarters and then we go missing for big periods and simple skill errors absolutely kill us time and again. Opposition teams just kill us when we haven't got the ball and when we do get it, it's heart in the mouth stuff with the lack of elite ball users in our squad.

All we've heard for the last season and a bit is the need to take the pressure of Patrick Cripps....if not for him in the first three rounds this year, the losing margins would've been double, if not more. He simply cannot do any more on his own and unless someone in the midfield steps up, it's impossible to see where a win comes from.

Walls is a dinosaur and has no business  being there. We as sacked him 30 years ago FFS.

Walls is a dinosaur and has no business  being there. We as sacked him 30 years ago FFS.

Yes, sacked after a GF (86), a flag (87), and a 3rd placing (88). LOL. If only...........

Walls is a dinosaur and has no business  being there. We as sacked him 30 years ago FFS.

Brilliant player and though he was the beneficiary of form fours in 86, still a damned good coach.  Can't believe that comment to be honest.  Agree with Paul 100%.  

To be fair though, he hasn't been in the AFL/VFL system for decades. If you get a chance, watch the Open Mike with him on Youtube. Very honest, candid, and doesn't make excuses.

Are you basing this on the latest presser, after the Swans game ? If so, what I heard was very different to what you write.

Paul..he went the same innerdrive, belief, intensity, driven dribble then said the players will/want to train better on Tuesday and Thursday and will be steely
in their resolve to get a result.
Might sound crazy but shouldnt that be the case every week win lose or draw...I'm cliched out....

Paul..he went the same innerdrive, belief, intensity, driven dribble then said the players will/want to train better on Tuesday and Thursday and will be steely
in their resolve to get a result.
Might sound crazy but shouldnt that be the case every week win lose or draw...I'm cliched out....

Wow, I heard a lot more than that.

That's rubbish.  There are many examples on elite sport where sacking the coach gets an immediate result, and along term one at that.  The key is picking a good replacement.  Bolton is a goose and should go right now.

In fact, Thry is on the money.  Letting Bolton go would be a disaster and would set us back to where we were when Malthouse was sacked.

We have played three teams that will probably make the 8 and we were competitive.  No-one tipped us to win and we were at long odds.  If anything, the astute observers are impressed with how much we’ve improved so far this season.

Paul..he went the same innerdrive, belief, intensity, driven dribble then said the players will/want to train better on Tuesday and Thursday and will be steely
in their resolve to get a result.
Might sound crazy but shouldnt that be the case every week win lose or draw...I'm cliched out....

EB....will you give the press conference thing a rest.

Some were as pleased as they have ever been with that particular press conference. You seem to think its worse than shooting bambi!

It means SFA in the scheme of things.

He's simply talking because the reporters need to hear something. Yes, some of what he said maybe goes without saying....but despite the assault on your eyes, does it do anyone else any harm?

We have played three teams that will probably make the 8 and we were competitive.  No-one tipped us to win and we were at long odds.  If anything, the astute observers are impressed with how much we’ve improved so far this season.

Yes, correct and many of them are journos, ex players etc who owe us nothing and generally aren’t out to do us any favours.

EB....will you give the press conference thing a rest.

Some were as pleased as they have ever been with that particular press conference. You seem to think its worse than shooting bambi!

It means SFA in the scheme of things.

He's simply talking because the reporters need to hear something. Yes, some of what he said maybe goes without saying....but despite the assault on your eyes, does it do anyone else any harm?

Krud.... I'll give it a rest when Comrade Bolton can stop delivering party line Pravda responses and actually answer the questions.....I did enjoy his unprompted rambling where he discussed an awkward silence sitting with the players who are driven to train well next Tuesday and Thursday...is he serious or just taking the piss?

In fact, Thry is on the money.  Letting Bolton go would be a disaster and would set us back to where we were when Malthouse was sacked.

We have played three teams that will probably make the 8 and we were competitive.  No-one tipped us to win and we were at long odds.  If anything, the astute observers are impressed with how much we’ve improved so far this season.

More of a disaster if the 3 from 35, 0-3 keeps going. We've been doing the honorable loss thing forever. Not good enough anymore, not 4th year in. We haven't improved, we've been pushing top sides hard for 4 years. 2 years ago we won 6 and lost 7 others after leading in the last qtr. Haven't improved one iota from that. Might be a bit better than last year but that was never going to be hard. Issue is now we have a decent enough team to do better and we're not.

Doubt he's losing his job midyear, unless we're 1-10 maybe, but he won't see next year. Should be looking top 10 4th year in.

More of a disaster if the 3 from 35, 0-3 keeps going. We've been doing the honorable loss thing forever. Not good enough anymore, not 4th year in. We haven't improved, we've been pushing top sides hard for 4 years. 2 years ago we won 6 and lost 7 others after leading in the last qtr. Haven't improved one iota from that. Might be a bit better than last year but that was never going to be hard. Issue is now we have a decent enough team to do better and we're not.

Doubt he's losing his job midyear, unless we're 1-10 maybe, but he won't see next year. Should be looking top 10 4th year in.

I thought Saturday's effort was one of the best I've seen in recent years, particularly since we are playing depth players (and a couple who are out of their depth) and eight of our 22 have played less than 25 games.  Of course they are going to make mistakes and succumb to pressure and it wouldn't matter if we had Barassi, Clarkson, Roos, and Pagan all in the coach's box. 

I think we have 11 senior coaches listed on the clubs website.

Anyone know how many of them played in premierships?

We all know Bolton hasn’t played AFL so it’s understandable that you would surround him with highly successful ex players that know what it takes to win.

Add to that our senior players that have been very successful in their careers.

I thought Saturday's effort was one of the best I've seen in recent years, particularly since we are playing depth players (and a couple who are out of their depth) and eight of our 22 have played less than 25 games.  Of course they are going to make mistakes and succumb to pressure and it wouldn't matter if we had Barassi, Clarkson, Roos, and Pagan all in the coach's box. 

I agree to a point.

The swans barely have a player in their prime right now. But the most disappointing thing was the predictability of the way we lost.

It was a replay of the last 10 times we lost to them. Lack of effort, lack of closing down exit options. Gifting the midfielders 10m space across the field. When we have the ball they lock everyone down. Nobody has 10cm let alone 10m.

The coach either isn't telling the players the right thing or can't get the players to execute. Either way this loss was an epic failure of the coaching staff.

And I honestly think BB is now running out of chances.

I thought Saturday's effort was one of the best I've seen in recent years, particularly since we are playing depth players (and a couple who are out of their depth) and eight of our 22 have played less than 25 games.  Of course they are going to make mistakes and succumb to pressure and it wouldn't matter if we had Barassi, Clarkson, Roos, and Pagan all in the coach's box.

There wouldn't be alot of competion in that regard.

We were $hit during the 2nd and 3rd qtrs. Barely looked like troubling the scorers until those 2 late 3rd qtr goals. Swans are a shadow of themselves. We lost a winnable game. No more excitement with honorable losses to average teams. Right now these are games we should be winning at home.

I think we have 11 senior coaches listed on the clubs website.

Anyone know how many of them played in premierships?

We all know Bolton hasn’t played AFL so it’s understandable that you would surround him with highly successful ex players that know what it takes to win.

Add to that our senior players that have been very successful in their careers.

You should check out the Lions coaching group. No AFL/VFL flags that I can see. They have 10 coaches, and the only names I recognise are Mitch Hahn, Fagan, Ben Hudson and Jed Adcock. Their senior coach has played no AFL/VFL footy, comes from Tassie, spent a long time at the Hawks, and is a qualified teacher. Now why does that sound familiar ?

Bolton isn't the problem. He may end up being the sacrificial lamb, but that's fairly standard.

I only just watched BB's presser, I don't get all the problems, he basically talked on what happened and the way it is!

There wasn't really much spin, he didn't roll off a chain of clichés, and he wasn't bullied into commentary by the media although they tried their best to get him spinning. In short he's getting better at handling the media.

Given the circumstance, I'd give him a post-match B+ or maybe even better!

From a club perspective, the only media problem we have, and I'm not sure how this happens. But after BB stomping on media spin the club posted a video from Ed in which Ed used the "H" word! The disappointing thing this comes from our own internal media crew, are they working for us or against us?

(http://home.spin.net.au/boristhebeetle/Bolton.png)

I only just watched BB's presser, I don't get all the problems, he basically talked on what happened and the way it is!

I don’t think it would matter what Bolts says or does, some folk won’t be happy until he’s gone ... and I hope they remain unhappy for a very long time  ;)

I wonder how things are going on the Melbourne supporters’ sites  :)

I don’t think it would matter what Bolts says or does, some folk won’t be happy until he’s gone ... and I hope they remain unhappy for a very long time  ;)

You can change Bolts for Mick and 4 years later we're worse.

BB is light-years ahead, MM wouldn't even know the rules had changed!

When we brought MM into the club, it was akin to voting in Bob Hawk for PM in 2020!

BB is light-years ahead, MM wouldn't even know the rules had changed!

Record doesn't show that.

Bolton: 69 games for 15 wins: 21.7%

Malthouse: 54 games for 20 wins + 1 draw: 31.4%

Ratten: 114 games for 60 wins: 52.6%

Pagan: 104 games for 25 wins + 2 draws: 24.1%

Brittain: 46 games for 18 wins at 39.1 %

Note: I removed Ratten's 6 games as caretaker/tanking coach.

Disturbing trend

2016   Carlton    22   7   15   0   31.8%
2017   Carlton    22   6   16   0   27.3%
2018   Carlton    22   2   20   0   9.1%
2019   Carlton     3    0    3    0   0.0%

Bolton: 69 games for 15 wins: 21.7%

Malthouse: 54 games for 20 wins + 1 draw: 31.4%

Pagan: 104 games for 25 wins + 2 draws: 24.1%

Brittain: 46 games for 18 wins at 39.1 %

You left one out, didn't you ?  :D

You left one out, didn't you ?  :D

Fixed.

Fixed.

Sticks out like dog's balls.

IMO, Pagan and Bolton both have mitigating circumstances, and perhaps Brittain as well. Ratts IMO is a decent coach, plus he had Judd and a few other handy players, and i think he also knew the club inside out, and hence knew his way around and could do his thing without causing trouble or being a victim of undue interference. 

Pagan arrived to a club in turmoil, and was white anted by senior players (justifiably or otherwise). Brittain I think had plenty of injuries, and I'm guessing zero support from Elliot. And Bolton has been part of a world record rebuild, so I stand by my previous assertion (however unsatisfactory or unacceptable) that the results from the first 3 years don't count.

Sticks out like dog's balls.

IMO, Pagan and Bolton both have mitigating circumstances, and perhaps Brittain as well. Ratts IMO is a decent coach, plus he had Judd and a few other handy players, and i think he also knew the club inside out, and hence knew his way around and could do his thing without causing trouble or being a victim of undue interference. 

Pagan arrived to a club in turmoil, and was white anted by senior players (justifiably or otherwise). Brittain I think had plenty of injuries, and I'm guessing zero support from Elliot. And Bolton has been part of a world record rebuild, so I stand by my previous assertion (however unsatisfactory or unacceptable) that the results from the first 3 years don't count.

While not defending Pagan I think you'll find the AFL sanctions kiboshed Pagan as much as anything. He arrived to a club with an aging list and was left with only the ability to draft has-beens. In some way, before the AFL sanctions, Pagan was to do the same job with fresh youth that BB is now tasked with doing.

MM was just a huge mistake, not much else to say.

Brittain was the one white-anted more than any other, by the highest levels with our club and along with the AFL those ultimate powers have a lot to answer for! I think it's no accident Brittain is still working behind the scenes at the Lions and in the northern development leagues.

Ratten while undermined within the club and externally, also contributed to his won fate and will tell you as much. He's a much better coach now but he may never get that next opportunity.

Bolton's record sticks out like dog balls.

He has all the draft picks, best player in the comp and full support of the board/club, media have been tame on him and the results are pathetic.

Bolton's record sticks out like dog balls.

He has all the draft picks, best player in the comp and full support of the board/club, media have been tame on him and the results are pathetic.

We have never been in this situation before, having an aging or recycled list of high draft picks is not like have a list full young inexperienced list full of high draft picks.

It's fundamentally a different situation, and our club did this to itself deliberately.

We are like Cortes, we've burned our ships there is no going back! We have to get shagging with the natives and breed up a new culture!

It's either a coaching problem or a list problem.

Bolton or SOS?

Who is at fault here?

It's either a coaching problem or a list problem.

Bolton or SOS?

Who is at fault here?

It's not black and white, the recruiter does what the club and MC demand, the coach and MC work with what the recruiter can deliver. In recent times the demarcation point seems to be the appointment of LoGiudice, prior to that any measures are somewhat irrelevant.

If you identify just one or the other, you are basically just picking a side in a chicken and egg argument. To me that would be a return to the even worse times in the later days Elliott or Malthouse. Men who time had past!

The first part of being a successful AFL footballer is getting the football, we have no problem doing that we already win plenty of contested ball across all lines of the ground. As plain as day our problem is using it once we get it and that problem resolves with experience. Whether those youthful players lack that ability, or are just failing to execute as required is yet to be answered.

Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.

Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.

Later days of Elliott and Malthouse.

I don't see much difference between us and the Dawks of 2004/2005/2006. This is our 2006 right now, a year the Dawks won 4 games in the first half of the season before winning 9 games in total, after seasons of 4 wins and 5 wins, and we are starting from a much much lower base.

fwiw, I think our poor 2018 was anomaly. A rookie administration, a rookie MC and a shell shocked playing list that reacted to AFL and AFL media criticism by changing a game plan due to peer(media) pressure. They won't make that mistake again, we will stick fat now, we won't be Pavlov's Dog again!

I think we are much closer to having an iron clad defense than a dominant forward line, we should be trying to win ugly 50pts to 40pts before we worry about kicking 100pts. We were closer to wins two years ago but we folded under peer pressure to adopt a game style for TV purposes that didn't suit our list!

As for the AFL media now talking up our situation, they have to because we've done what they asked of us. If they bag us now they are bagging themselves!

I think we have folks with strong views on both sides of the debate.
That's good for forum business...I'm not sure it's a position the club would want to see.

But there are also some of us who are sitting squarely in the middle....and I'm totally buggered if I know "Where we are at!"
'Have faith' I'm told.
But bloody faith is the most 'airy fairy' thing in football.
It's totally meaningless and has no influence on what will happen... (unless you're a club director)

The problem this season is the first three weeks have given us a group of results that have only muddied the perception.
Real Jekyll and Hyde stuff.
Some say they can see real improvement but if we look back over the last three years we could find many post game threads where we've talked about 'real' improvement.

I like Bolton. I like his attitude. I think he does generally have a lot of support from the playing group' I think they believe he can make them better players and have embraced what he's trying to achieve.
I'm also sure he's learning and developing in the role and his coaching will only get better.
But there is a time limit.
It's not set, and can happen very quickly if things go completely pear-shaped.
Am I convinced he's the coach that can get the results we want before his time runs out?...
No, I'm not sure, and that's based solely on the fact that the results so far are a decline in both wins and ladder position that hasn't been offset by a real improvement in development and performance.

It's not irreversible.
He has until the end of this season before any real pressure comes on.
What saves him?
For that we need to see wins and a steady rise up the ladder.
Now hopefully that may come...but we can't just wipe the last three years...and go "Starting Now!"

As we've seen in another thread the core of this playing group was there before Bolton.
With the addition of those drafted in his first year he has had a stable group that makes up a large part of his starting 22 players, albeit severely affected by injuries at different stages.

Yet what we've seen is us heading South in terms of ladder position and games won each year.
So until you turn that around you have to cop a bit of flack.

Show us some solid evidence in terms of
-player improvement
-teaming together and structure
-wins
-ladder improvement
….and the criticism will evaporate.

I still think the great majority of Carlton supporters want this to work.
I don't know what we do if it doesn't.

Bolton's record sticks out like dog balls.

He has all the draft picks, best player in the comp and full support of the board/club, media have been tame on him and the results are pathetic.

The draft picks that you refer to have been built up gradually. The club was at a very low point when he arrived. We assume and hope he has the board's full support. The fact that there is no news coming out on that front is a good thing IMO. And yes, the media has been good to him, in large part because he's affable and doesn't inflame situations, unlike Malthouse, who brought a lot of unnecessary heat on himself and the club.

Of course the results are lousy, as previously discussed. The only issue of any import is whether Bolton and the players can turn it around. I remain hopeful.

Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.

Elliot was successful when the system worked on his terms. I don't begrudge him that. But he was a stubborn, arrogant old coot who refused to change and thought he was bigger than the AFL, and could dismiss them and treat them like cr@p. He created a lot of trouble for us in his later years.

It's off topic, but I would not underestimate how important Docherty is on game day. He is IMO the smartest footballer on our list, and a natural conduit for Bolton, who like Clarkson, wants smart players that can think on their feet.

Doc is a big concern of mine. 2 recos on the same knee - there's no guarantee that he won't break down again, there's no guarantee he will play week in week out, and there's no guarantee he can regain his part form.

The club must be at least planning for a Docherty replacement if his future doesn't work out.

It's either a coaching problem or a list problem.

Bolton or SOS?

Who is at fault here?

I don't think a reductionist, binary approach like that will ever get you close to the truth.

With the benefit of hindsight, SOS' approach was kind of obvious. Both he and his dad played in successful teams that were chock full of superstars. His job at GWS was cherry picking the best talent, and the list certainly looks very classy and skilful. I'm guessing that even his time at the Saints coincided with their multitude of high picks, but I haven't checked.

IMO, our list is kind of a low rent version of GWS, mainly because we don't have generous draft concessions. 

It's off topic, but I would not underestimate how important Docherty is on game day. He is IMO the smartest footballer on our list, and a natural conduit for Bolton, who like Clarkson, wants smart players that can think on their feet.

Doc is a big concern of mine. 2 recos on the same knee - there's no guarantee that he won't break down again, there's no guarantee he will play week in week out, and there's no guarantee he can regain his part form.

The club must be at least planning for a Docherty replacement if his future doesn't work out.

Fair post.....its 50/50 always with knees and the future so I'm sure the club will look to bolster the list with a junior Docherty type just in case things dont work out...Dean Rice did multiple knees but came back and was a premiership player so you try and stay positive. I'd like Tom Williamson back sooner than later but he is another who is probably 50/50 given back injuries are not easy fixes....two very important players and we need a change of luck.

Fair post.....its 50/50 always with knees and the future so I'm sure the club will look to bolster the list with a junior Docherty type just in case things dont work out...Dean Rice did multiple knees but came back and was a premiership player so you try and stay positive. I'd like Tom Williamson back sooner than later but he is another who is probably 50/50 given back injuries are not easy fixes....two very important players and we need a change of luck.

Yes agree Elwood.

It's off topic, but I would not underestimate how important Docherty is on game day. He is IMO the smartest footballer on our list, and a natural conduit for Bolton, who like Clarkson, wants smart players that can think on their feet.

Doc is a big concern of mine. 2 recos on the same knee - there's no guarantee that he won't break down again, there's no guarantee he will play week in week out, and there's no guarantee he can regain his part form.

The club must be at least planning for a Docherty replacement if his future doesn't work out.

Absolutely.  In fact, he is more important than Cripps.  Cripps has been this raging bull for a few years now, but only with Docherty on the field did we win games.

Id be playing him anyway, and putting him in a role that makes best use of his ability to provide on field leadership (when his knee is right to go again).

You never know what will or can happen, and its irrelevant.  Docherty is a lock for our team for the next 5 years, because once simpson and Daisy retires our other options in his position are poor or relatively broken if they are good.  Docherty might need a bit more of a kid glove approach from now on, but there is no reason why he cant provide us good service once (if) he recovers.

We’ve been patient and trusting. In fact trusting to a Herculean level. And we’ve made progress, the CFC is now a world leader in how to lose really, really well. It’s not a catastrophe, yet.

From my understanding it was a commitment from the club, based on surveying us, that we wanted no quick fixes and no more blowouts.

Well, the club and senior coach have delivered on that. The ‘old Carlton’ would have sent BB, and others, packing long ago. We stayed the course for the first 2 years, with stoic persistence and moved the club away from way too many massive losses. These high number of blowouts are sure a thing of the past.

But…

We are now faced with a massive problem. We do not know how to win. We’ve got the blokes to win games, of that I am certain. Many sides have achieved a lot more with much less.

The problem is that a mind-set of avoiding huge defeats, is now ingrained in our club. It’s now the culture. Conservative, safe coaching is the norm.

Our players are now delivering exactly what they been trained to do over the past 3 years… avoid a bad loss. That’s their focus. That’s our focus. And it’s rock solid.

But when it came time to change that focus, realising we had to start kicking winning scores, to be more offensive, we seem to have found ourselves stuck in the initial mental conditioning/programming. Remember the start of last year? We announced over the summer of ‘17/’18 that we were adding an ‘offensive layer’. Lasted about 15 minutes into the 2018 season, then as soon as bona fide pressure was applied to our blokes, we ‘reverted to type.’ And we are still to this day, ‘reverting to type’ when pressure is applied. We do not know how to win, but we do know how to avoid a blowout, and this is BBs very obvious strength.

We need someone else to help transition the players to a winning mind-set. Not a Messiah, just someone who understands how to develop a winning mind-set in a sporting club.

To ask BB to suddenly become a very different senior coach/person with a different message is an horrendously difficult transition, not to mention whether the players will buy it. Looks like they’re not (as I assume he’s trying just that, now). And how could they? Some will (looks like Ed bought it big time), but most won’t. Do we want Walsh to have a safe/conservative mind-set?

What makes suggesting the need for strong change in coaching approach/style all the more difficult is that saying anything apparently negative about BB is like shooting Bambi. The bloke is so likeable, affable, bubbly… even sweet, so how dare you, Baggers, suggest he’s not the bloke for 2020 onward!!?? Doe like eyes, a smile that lights up the room… sheesh, even the media is going easy on him, cutting him way more slack than just about anyone else.

We probably made a rod for our backs with the initial brief to BB, which he delivered on, in spades, in the first 2 years… but he couldn’t change the course of the ship… stick to the coast, avoid rough seas (to use my former RAN life speak).

Arguments around ‘too many kids’ don’t cut it. Plenty of sides have an imbalance of kids and still find ways to win, ways to kick more than 100 pts. We definitely looked good enough to win our first 3 games this year, we just don’t know how to win.

Even when this side achieves perfect cohesion, it’ll only deliver brave, spirited, honourable losses week in week out (sound familiar?). Sure we’ll win a few games, but only against opposition in really bad form.

Wonder if anyone in the media will have the macaroons to ask hard questions about where our rebuild sits at this very minute. I bet the club expected us to be way better now than we presently are – equal bottom and with an uncanny ability to get into winning positions then sabotage it. If we stay this course for much longer we will run aground.

I think we have folks with strong views on both sides of the debate.
That's good for forum business...I'm not sure it's a position the club would want to see.

But there are also some of us who are sitting squarely in the middle....and I'm totally buggered if I know "Where we are at!"
'Have faith' I'm told.
But bloody faith is the most 'airy fairy' thing in football.
It's totally meaningless and has no influence on what will happen... (unless you're a club director)

The problem this season is the first three weeks have given us a group of results that have only muddied the perception.
Real Jekyll and Hyde stuff.
Some say they can see real improvement but if we look back over the last three years we could find many post game threads where we've talked about 'real' improvement.

I like Bolton. I like his attitude. I think he does generally have a lot of support from the playing group' I think they believe he can make them better players and have embraced what he's trying to achieve.
I'm also sure he's learning and developing in the role and his coaching will only get better.
But there is a time limit.
It's not set, and can happen very quickly if things go completely pear-shaped.
Am I convinced he's the coach that can get the results we want before his time runs out?...
No, I'm not sure, and that's based solely on the fact that the results so far are a decline in both wins and ladder position that hasn't been offset by a real improvement in development and performance.

It's not irreversible.
He has until the end of this season before any real pressure comes on.
What saves him?
For that we need to see wins and a steady rise up the ladder.
Now hopefully that may come...but we can't just wipe the last three years...and go "Starting Now!"

As we've seen in another thread the core of this playing group was there before Bolton.
With the addition of those drafted in his first year he has had a stable group that makes up a large part of his starting 22 players, albeit severely affected by injuries at different stages.

Yet what we've seen is us heading South in terms of ladder position and games won each year.
So until you turn that around you have to cop a bit of flack.

Show us some solid evidence in terms of
-player improvement
-teaming together and structure
-wins
-ladder improvement
….and the criticism will evaporate.

I still think the great majority of Carlton supporters want this to work.
I don't know what we do if it doesn't.

There are coaching issues, when we have the game on our terms like the first quarter this week, we looked good, but any decent coach can shut down young kids from running with the football, especially a good defensive team like Sydney. What Bolton has failed to do is implement a game plan that counters this. GWS is a running side and when the opposition tries to block things up they keep the opposite wings wide, which enables a release kick when fed out the back.

ATM if we win the ball in congestion we feed the ball back, then kick down the line and any half decent coach knows that, places a defender 30m forward of the stoppage, they get the ball and kick into the middle of the ground as all of their player who were congesting the play run off our guys and this opens the ground up putting our defense under pressure. We were just luck this week that Jones and Weitering were able to play out of their skins.

Imagine the same play where we feed the ball back, but instead of kicking it down the line they run 10m to the middle of the ground and kick to the opposing wing to our player we have there waiting for the release kick, it doesn't have to be on his chest but in his general area, and we are away.

The opposition then have to decide are they going to allow this, if they man him up, then we send another over there and create a two on one, this will then stop the play getting too clogged up and allow our young runners to get some momentum again.

If the opposition win the clearence the wing pushed out can run to the middle and block the players who want to get to the middle.

That is a very simplistic look at it but it works for GWS well, just ask DeLideo who gets many easy kicks by being that release valve.

There are coaching issues, when we have the game on our terms like the first quarter this week, we looked good, but any decent coach can shut down young kids from running with the football, especially a good defensive team like Sydney. What Bolton has failed to do is implement a game plan that counters this. GWS is a running side and when the opposition tries to block things up they keep the opposite wings wide, which enables a release kick when fed out the back.

Yet it's taken GWS almost 5 years to get things working reliably, they are no longer a team of kids! ;)

If GWS remain fit and healthy they will go close to wining the flag this season, if they win one they might well win 3, 4 or 5 and that will mean our list efforts are wasted! GWS are the common enemy of all traditional clubs, SOS is correct in mining their list, and by that very mining effort he is undermining their list depth! But if they stay healthy and intact watch out!

When most of your mids cant hit a target or run at 65% DE, the opposition can back themselves in to get some easy turnovers....we need a simple plan to accommodate our simple skilled players which means you become predictable taking the easy defensive route which means kicking short along the boundaries and getting nowhere...ending in turnovers as your players get cornered.
We dont have enough players who can quickly with precision hit those targets across ground with long kicks and switch play...losing Docherty and Williamson hasnt helped either who are good kicks...

When most of your mids cant hit a target or run at 65% DE, the opposition can back themselves in to get some easy turnovers....we need a simple plan to accommodate our simple skilled players which means you become predictable taking the easy defensive route which means kicking short along the boundaries and getting nowhere...ending in turnovers as your players get cornered.
We dont have enough players who can quickly with precision hit those targets across ground with long kicks and switch play...losing Docherty and Williamson hasnt helped either who are good kicks...

I agree somewhat, but I'd assert the current problem isn't Setterfield, SPS, Fisher, Poulson or any of the other kids. The problem is that our older guys don't really do much better on average and especially when things get tight during the match!

We have a list full of shell shocked individuals, damaged goods! At as any good military commander knows, shell-shock can be contagious! Yet we keep using adversity as a learning tool, it's my biggest concern! Armies did that back in the days of yore, when lives were cheap and The Best of British Military was run by men in luxury tents many miles away! But Carlton has only 45 soldiers, we cannot keep breaking them and expect to win the battle!

Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.

Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.

Like I said, it can be contagious.

Some are damaged from long service, others are youthful but contaminated, you do not need long service to become damaged!

Who is going to break the cycle?

We should take some delight in watching Jones and Weitering, but it can take that long to turn things around, if you can at all! I'm not sure blokes like Simmo, sMurph, Ed, Plowman, Casboult, etc., etc., can turn things around.

Simmo looks tired, and it's only Rnd 3!

History shows - the guys who coach through a complete bottom-out rebuild like the one we're undertaking are rarely still there when the results swing back the other way.

McCartney (3 years in the bottom 3) -> Beveridge: Won it 2 years after taking over
Northey -> Lethal: Won it within 2 years of taking over
Shaw (wooden spoon in 1999) -> Malthouse: Took over in 2000 - runner up 2002
Schwab (10th, 9th, 2nd bottom, sacked) -> Clarkson: 3 years after Clarko took over won the flag.
Eade (8th, 10th, 11th, sacked) -> Roos : won the premiership in his 2nd year.


Bomber Thompson would be an exception given their rebuild really started upon his arrival but he only survived by the slimmest of slim margins.

Hardwick: got the premiership in his 7th year so arguably saw through a fair chunk of the rebuild, however, they got in Cotchin / Rance / Reiwoldt / Martin whilst Wallis was still there so I'd argue he arrived post bottom out rebuild.

Maybe clubs just need that circuit breaker to make a clean break from that losing phase. Or maybe the intense pressure of losing cracks the coaches themselves (see Scott Watters). Or maybe the boards eventually loses patience.

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

If he were to be sacked (which I think is a long way off) who is the next logical replacement?

Sam Mitchell?
I'd love to see Ratts back but can't see that happening.

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

Before us no club has done to it's list what we are doing, it's unprecedented.

History shows - the guys who coach through a complete bottom-out rebuild like the one we're undertaking are rarely still there when the results swing back the other way.

McCartney (3 years in the bottom 3) -> Beveridge: Won it 2 years after taking over
Northey -> Lethal: Won it within 2 years of taking over
Shaw (wooden spoon in 1999) -> Malthouse: Took over in 2000 - runner up 2002
Schwab (10th, 9th, 2nd bottom, sacked) -> Clarkson: 3 years after Clarko took over won the flag.
Eade (8th, 10th, 11th, sacked) -> Roos : won the premiership in his 2nd year.


Bomber Thompson would be an exception given their rebuild really started upon his arrival but he only survived by the slimmest of slim margins.

Hardwick: got the premiership in his 7th year so arguably saw through a fair chunk of the rebuild, however, they got in Cotchin / Rance / Reiwoldt / Martin whilst Wallis was still there so I'd argue he arrived post bottom out rebuild.

Maybe clubs just need that circuit breaker to make a clean break from that losing phase. Or maybe the intense pressure of losing cracks the coaches themselves (see Scott Watters). Or maybe the boards eventually loses patience.

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

Not really, they already had Buddy, Roughead and Hodge when he took the job.

I think in general that term "rebuild" covers a very wide scope of activities, from "inherit" to "white-ant"! But I think the point stands, there has not been a "rebuild" like our current rebuild, ever!

I suppose the closest analogy in recent times would be the recruiting and list changes during the start up years of the Lions or Swans! To me GWS and GC do not qualify due to the concessions they received, is that fair?

Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

Yes but he was only really there for 2 years of bottom out part. They made finals in his second or third year I think and won the premiership in 2008. My post was about coaches who survive a lengthy bottom out rebuild phase vs. those who come in and pick up a club already several years into that rebuild which Clarko definitely did.

Having said that - as much as I hate him - Clarkson is an undeniably brilliant coach and has impacted the modern game more than any other coach. To have taken the Hawks so quickly out of that rebuild phase to premiership is his most brilliant achievement I would have thought.

It hurts so much to write that because I genuinely hate that arrogant little sniping poison dwarf.

Not really, they already had Buddy, Roughead and Hodge when he took the job.

I think in general that term "rebuild" covers a very wide scope of activities, from "inherit" to "white-ant"! But I think the point stands, there has not been a "rebuild" like our current rebuild, ever!

I suppose the closest analogy in recent times would be the recruiting and list changes during the start up years of the Lions or Swans! To me GWS and GC do not qualify due to the concessions they received, is that fair?

GWS would be the best analogy to our list. They had a smattering of older guys (equivalent to Murphy/Kreuzer/Simmo/Thomas) on the books but around them was a team of basically first round draft picks (if you count their 17y.o. concessions as first rounders).

Imagine GWS without the go-home factor. That is Carlton's current list.

GWS would be the best analogy to our list. They had a smattering of older guys (equivalent to Murphy/Kreuzer/Simmo/Thomas) on the books but around them was a team of basically first round draft picks (if you count their 17y.o. concessions as first rounders).

Imagine GWS without the go-home factor. That is Carlton's current list.

I think our experienced heads aren't really good enough to be compared to the GWS leaders.  Think, Phil Davis, Shane Mumford, Callan Ward.


Where we are struggling is that we have a few key experienced players, that we cannot get on the park.  I.e.  Kreuzer and Docherty would have been the difference between winning and losing on Saturday, arguably they would have been the difference vs Port, and who knows how different the Richmond result could have been with them playing.

We are just putting all our eggs in the basket of broken players, and are having to wear losses until the wheel turns.

GWS would be the best analogy to our list. They had a smattering of older guys (equivalent to Murphy/Kreuzer/Simmo/Thomas) on the books but around them was a team of basically first round draft picks (if you count their 17y.o. concessions as first rounders).

Imagine GWS without the go-home factor. That is Carlton's current list.

The way GWS was built was not the same as our scorched earth rebuild

GWS built a palace full of riches, some new and some stolen, and are fighting like hell to defend it from the thieves for long enough until they come good.

Carlton burned down it's remaining hovel and is frantically trying to build a new palace using a mixture of remnants and new materials. In some respects we can probably be accused of throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The way GWS was built was not the same as our scorched earth rebuild

GWS built a palace full of riches, some new and some stolen, and are fighting like hell to defend it from the thieves for long enough until they come good.

Carlton burned down it's remaining hovel and is frantically trying to build a new palace using a mixture of remnants and new materials. In some respects we can probably be accused of throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

GWS had the highest number of former first round draft picks on their list ever - but they were all 18-20. Then a smattering of older hands in the 28+ bracket.

Carlton now has the most former first round draft picks on any list ever - excluding that GWS list.

There is no exact like for like but GWS was the most similar to where we're at now I reckon. Their problem has been keeping the list together with the go home factor and a ridiculous injury plague. If it weren't for that I think they'd have won a premiership - probably 2 - by now.

Add the best of Adams, Treloar, Shiel, Scully, Boyd, Bruce, Marchbank, etc. back into that team and they'd be absolutely dominant.

Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.

You are either a good kick or not when you are a kid and that doesnt change....Pendlebury was a good kick from day 1, Williamson is a good kick...age, games has nothing to do with it...
Dow was a average kick at TAC level and nothing has changed...on the run he is 50/50 to hit a target, Walsh kicking short is ok but his balldrop means when he kicks in a hurry he can mistime them.
Weitering is a good kick who lost his mojo but has regained it and his kicking is back ok again..
Chris Judd wasnt an accomplished user by foot either and got worse as he got older, thats all ok if you have enough good kicking players in the team to compensate...at the moment SPS is probably our most reliable kick from our midfield group. Setterfield is another who needs to improve his kicking....Murphy can be unreliable as can Simpson. Cripps also uneliable.....
Obrien is meant to be a good kick but doesnt get enough ball to impact.
Fisher is normally good but of late has been under more pressure...Newman looks a good kick but went at 50% vs the Swans...

You will not kick enough goals if the majority of your major ballwinners cant hit targets in the big moments of the game.....

GWS had the highest number of former first round draft picks on their list ever - but they were all 18-20. Then a smattering of older hands in the 28+ bracket.

Carlton now has the most former first round draft picks on any list ever - excluding that GWS list.

There is no exact like for like but GWS was the most similar to where we're at now I reckon. Their problem has been keeping the list together with the go home factor and a ridiculous injury plague. If it weren't for that I think they'd have won a premiership - probably 2 - by now.

Add the best of Adams, Treloar, Shiel, Scully, Boyd, Bruce, Marchbank, etc. back into that team and they'd be absolutely dominant.

GWS would have won a flag with Clarkson coaching.......Clarko would have toughened them up and given them a more killer instinct, they dont have enough mongrel in the team.
Mumford back makes them so much better.

GWS had the highest number of former first round draft picks on their list ever - but they were all 18-20. Then a smattering of older hands in the 28+ bracket.

Carlton now has the most former first round draft picks on any list ever - excluding that GWS list.

There is no exact like for like but GWS was the most similar to where we're at now I reckon. Their problem has been keeping the list together with the go home factor and a ridiculous injury plague. If it weren't for that I think they'd have won a premiership - probably 2 - by now.

Add the best of Adams, Treloar, Shiel, Scully, Boyd, Bruce, Marchbank, etc. back into that team and they'd be absolutely dominant.

Are not some of our former 1st Rnd picks GWS discards, or in other words the GWS Palace building remnants?

GWS would have won a flag with Clarkson coaching.......Clarko would have toughened them up and given them a more killer instinct, they dont have enough mongrel in the team.
Mumford back makes them so much better.

Hard to argue with that.

Although a fit again Jeremy Cameron is a pretty handy addition this year.

Hard to argue with that.

Although a fit again Jeremy Cameron is a pretty handy addition this year.

Cameron is a gun player and probably works better without Patton IMO.....Finlayson who I know you were keen on, Himmelberg and Greene probably are
a better support crew who can work with Cameron as the main man.

Krud.... I'll give it a rest when Comrade Bolton can stop delivering party line Pravda responses and actually answer the questions.....I did enjoy his unprompted rambling where he discussed an awkward silence sitting with the players who are driven to train well next Tuesday and Thursday...is he serious or just taking the piss?

Paul beat me to it, but...

(http://home.spin.net.au/boristhebeetle/Bolton.png)

Is Clarkson responsible for the success of his subordinates, or are they responsible for Clarkson's success?

You are either a good kick or not when you are a kid and that doesnt change....Pendlebury was a good kick from day 1, Williamson is a good kick...age, games has nothing to do with it...
Dow was a average kick at TAC level and nothing has changed...on the run he is 50/50 to hit a target, Walsh kicking short is ok but his balldrop means when he kicks in a hurry he can mistime them.
Weitering is a good kick who lost his mojo but has regained it and his kicking is back ok again..
Chris Judd wasnt an accomplished user by foot either and got worse as he got older, thats all ok if you have enough good kicking players in the team to compensate...at the moment SPS is probably our most reliable kick from our midfield group. Setterfield is another who needs to improve his kicking....Murphy can be unreliable as can Simpson. Cripps also uneliable.....
Obrien is meant to be a good kick but doesnt get enough ball to impact.
Fisher is normally good but of late has been under more pressure...Newman looks a good kick but went at 50% vs the Swans...

You will not kick enough goals if the majority of your major ballwinners cant hit targets in the big moments of the game.....

I don't disagree, but there is such a thing as composure.  A lack of it, will see even the best user by foot stuff up the kick, and I am seeing a young and inexperienced team not all that comfortable being uncomfortable to coin a phrase.

Finlayson who I know you were keen on

He was available for a bag of potato chips last trade period... price heading north at the minute.

Is Clarkson responsible for the success of his subordinates, or are they responsible for Clarkson's success?

Many, many.... many subordinates continue to come and go at the Hawks - success is pretty consistent.... unfortunately.

He was available for a bag of potato chips last trade period... price heading north at the minute.

True...I guess its all about opportunity.....Patton out injured, Lobb traded and he gets his chance down forward
and finds his niche. Maybe Paddy Kerr can do same if he gets an opportunity with Charlie and McGovern out?

Paul beat me to it, but...

Give it a rest Krud...dont know why you are so hung up on Boltons presser's ;)

True...I guess its all about opportunity.....Patton out injured, Lobb traded and he gets his chance down forward
and finds his niche. Maybe Paddy Kerr can do same if he gets an opportunity with Charlie and McGovern out?

Let's hope so. The thing Findlayson has is he's a phenomenal kick.
Not exactly our strong suit.

Give it a rest Krud...dont know why you are so hung up on Boltons presser's ;)

That quote from Marc McGowan was basically a complaint that Bolton was making it hard for him to write a story because he wasn't answering the questions in the way McGowan wanted. Honestly - who could care less.

Give it a rest Krud...dont know why you are so hung up on Boltons presser's ;)

You are the only one who has something negative to say about it, and are trying to use it to oust him from the club.

Just pointing out how out of whack your take and/or timing on the whole issue is.

That quote from Marc McGowan was basically a complaint that Bolton was making it hard for him to write a story because he wasn't answering the questions in the way McGowan wanted. Honestly - who could care less.

That may be true, but I'm not a journo, and the difference between the last 3 seasons and now is very palpable in his interviews. He actually discusses the same things as the other coaches, and sounds like a real AFL coach, and opposed to the whole life coach thing we had to endure previously. I don't believe it's because "he's improved as a media performer". I think it's because he's now coaching for wins, and not just marking time.

You are the only one who has something negative to say about it, and are trying to use it to oust him from the club.

Just pointing out how out of whack your take and/or timing on the whole issue is.

Oust him from the club????...can you show me the text where I said that?
My mine grip with Bolton is that he is tactically clueless and allows opposition star players to run around unmanned....thats why he should be ousted, not because he is a serial robotic cliche churner....
3 wins from 35 games isnt it...how about I time it when its 6 from 70.......
You like his pressers and I dont ...get over it....

That quote from Marc McGowan was basically a complaint that Bolton was making it hard for him to write a story because he wasn't answering the questions in the way McGowan wanted. Honestly - who could care less.

I couldn't care about his pressers. I'm just trying to point out that of all times for EB to start complaining about them, he chooses the one time where people (paulp started it i think, Mcgoawan continued it) have started praising him for his change of attitude.

EB pushing a barrow, and nobody else is buying it. He's hung up on one line about him saying the blokes will train hard tuesday and thursday.
His implication is that it suggests they don't train hard otherwise.

Anyone who has ever played footy knows there are times you get absolutely flogged on the training track compared to other weeks and it doesn't mean you are not training hard otherwise.

Also there is the fact that players and fitness staff are aware of 'heavy weeks' and 'light weeks' on the track. Perhaps the week coming up is a scheduled heavy week.

All that i'm certain of is that those comments from Bolton mean SFA in the scheme of things, and EB flogging that dead horse is getting tiresome.

Oust him from the club????...can you show me the text where I said that?
My mine grip with Bolton is that he is tactically clueless and allows opposition star players to run around unmanned....thats why he should be ousted, not because he is a serial robotic cliche churner....
3 wins from 35 games isnt it...how about I time it when its 6 from 70.......
You like his pressers and I dont ...get over it....

It’s interesting that opposition coaches tend not to worry too much about our star players and it was good to see Cripps and Kennedy going head to head.  Of course, Cripps had an edge because Samo, Ed and others kept putting blocks on Kennedy.  That’s coaching  :)

If BB goes - who replaces him?

It’s interesting that opposition coaches tend not to worry too much about our star players and it was good to see Cripps and Kennedy going head to head.  Of course, Cripps had an edge because Samo, Ed and others kept putting blocks on Kennedy.  That’s coaching  :)

Kennedy was tagging Cripps....

Kennedy was tagging Cripps....

Didnt look like it to me. I thought they went head to head, even in the first, Kennedy gave Crippa a bath in the second, Crippa got the choccies in the 3rd and 4th.

My faith in Bolts is being tested, if he can't get us out of the bottom 4 this year he has lost me.

The big issue for me is there is no obvious stand out candidate to replace him.

The Judge and SOS's links to Ross Lyon worry me, I would stop following AFL if he came to Carlton.
I wouldn't be against giving Ratts a 2nd chance, although not sure how realistic this option might be.

I'd be interested in Adam Simpson, and both Fagan and Dew seem to be doing ok up north, so there are options, but no one is screaming 'pick me' right at this moment, to me anyway...

With the list SOS has built, you would think we would have a pretty exciting list to coach, and shouldn't have much trouble attracting anyone if necessary.

Didnt look like it to me. I thought they went head to head, even in the first, Kennedy gave Crippa a bath in the second, Crippa got the choccies in the 3rd and 4th.

Commentators on Fox mentioned it...said it was strange to see Kennedy tagging when it was usually him being the tagged player....
Be interesting this week with our old friend Nick Holman a candidate to do the tagging....

Kennedy was tagging Cripps....

Absolutely not!  As Longmire said before the game, Cripps and Kennedy went head to head most of the game and their focus was on winning the ball, not stopping their opponent.

Didnt look like it to me. I thought they went head to head, even in the first, Kennedy gave Crippa a bath in the second, Crippa got the choccies in the 3rd and 4th.

Yes, that’s pretty much how I saw it.  I first noticed Samo’s work in blocking Kennedy’s run at the ball in the 3rd and I assumed that he was working to instructions.  It certainly seemed to help Cripps win clearances.  What I particularly liked about Samo’s tactics is that he would bump Kennedy, then roll off into space for a handball receive.

Commentators on Fox mentioned it...said it was strange to see Kennedy tagging when it was usually him being the tagged player....
Be interesting this week with our old friend Nick Holman a candidate to do the tagging....

Really?  It certainly wasn’t evident watching live, unless two blokes coming together to contest the ball is called tagging these days  ;)

Didnt look like it to me. I thought they went head to head, even in the first, Kennedy gave Crippa a bath in the second, Crippa got the choccies in the 3rd and 4th.

The Swans got away giving Cripps a fair bit of scragging early in that game, it's only after the umpires started "noticing the indiscretions" that Cripps became dominant.

Yes, that’s pretty much how I saw it.  I first noticed Samo’s work in blocking Kennedy’s run at the ball in the 3rd and I assumed that he was working to instructions.  It certainly seemed to help Cripps win clearances.  What I particularly liked about Samo’s tactics is that he would bump Kennedy, then roll off into space for a handball receive.

You know I am not an SPS fan however Ill be the first to admit that his performances of the last 2 weeks have been solid. I saw him put his body on the line quite a few times on Sat and tackled very well also. He has definitely upped his physicality towards the contest, whether that is due to instruction or not I don't care, he may well make me look like an absolute dill yet.

So paying attention to your opponent, instead of just ignoring them,  is what is "tagging" these days?

You know I am not an SPS fan however Ill be the first to admit that his performances of the last 2 weeks have been solid. I saw him put his body on the line quite a few times on Sat and tackled very well also. He has definitely upped his physicality towards the contest, whether that is due to instruction or not I don't care, he may well make me look like an absolute dill yet.

I agree but 18 pos. just isn't enough. Zak Jones had 31.

Jones is 24, in his sixth season with 76 games under his belt. SPS is 21, in his third season. Patience grasshopper, SPS is coming along very nicely IMO

Jones is 24, in his sixth season with 76 games under his belt. SPS is 21, in his third season. Patience grasshopper, SPS is coming along very nicely IMO

Agree, SPS has made some big strides forward this year so far and seems to be playing a much more prominent role. I am optimistic about him.

As has Liam. Lovely fella!

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2019-04-09/jones-relishing-opportunities

As has Liam. Lovely fella!

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2019-04-09/jones-relishing-opportunities

No doubt!

As has Liam. Lovely fella!

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2019-04-09/jones-relishing-opportunities

That last piece was genuine, off script and says a lot about the guy and how he approaches his football. Happy to have him in my team!

Jones was good last year, full back is difficult position when you lose by 10 goals every couple of weeks.

I was mocked for this last year but go back and have a look at SOS's record when we got pumped.

As has Liam. Lovely fella!

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2019-04-09/jones-relishing-opportunities

Agree. He interviews much the same way as he plays football. Decent, humble, ethical and just plain old nice.

Agree. He interviews much the same way as he plays football. Decent, humble, ethical and just plain old nice.

Is that a veiled swipe? ;D

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/carlton-defender-liam-jones-has-leaked-just-three-goals-this-season/news-story/1a5c170eb7a180a9d9416ff7c3658c76

Carlton defender Liam Jones has leaked just three goals this season
SAM LANDSBERGER, Herald Sun
April 9, 2019 6:28pm
Subscriber only
Liam Jones’ obsession with studying vision and researching opponents has emerged as the key to his rebirth as one of the game’s stingiest defenders.

The Carlton full-back has conceded just three goals this season after extended duels with Richmond’s Jack Riewoldt, Port Adelaide’s Paddy Ryder and Sydney’s Lance Franklin.

Jones polled two coaches votes for his negating performance on Franklin, where he mixed sharp closing speed, smart body contact and desperation to beat the eight-time All-Australian in several one-on-ones.

Is that a veiled swipe? ;D...........................

No. Good on him for trying to beat his man fair and square, rather than resorting to short cuts. I see him as a poor man's Southby, and that's a very good thing IMO. And I hope his good start to the season continues for the rest of his career. The sort of player you really root for and really wish for a fairytale career, because we all like to see nice guys win.

Having said that, he does drive me crazy at times.

Having said that, he does drive me crazy at times.

When is that PaulP, when he launches clear of all opponents free of any obstructive contact and double fists the football directly to the opposition small forwards?

When is that PaulP, when he launches clear of all opponents and double fists the ball free of any obstructive contact?

When he kamikazes team mates in the back of the head etc.,

When he kamikazes team mates in the back of the head etc.,

I have to admit, I did like Jones and Casboult doing some heavy hitting of opponents last game, but I realise it comes at a risk! Let's just say they are not so clinical as Sandilands or Hodge!

Please Mr AFL, please please keep Liam and Levi well away from Cripps marking a football?

(https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/sad-cat-gif-5.gif)

I have to admit, I did like Jones and Casboult doing some heavy hitting of opponents last game, but I realise it comes at a risk!

Please Mr AFL, please please keep Liam and Levi well away from Cripps marking a football?

(https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/sad-cat-gif-5.gif)

It seems to me that this has been a real area of improvement in his game, i.e reduction of cannoning into his mates. Long may it continue. Again I say, good on him.

No. Good on him for trying to beat his man fair and square, rather than resorting to short cuts. I see him as a poor man's Southby, and that's a very good thing IMO. And I hope his good start to the season continues for the rest of his career. The sort of player you really root for and really wish for a fairytale career, because we all like to see nice guys win.

Having said that, he does drive me crazy at times.

Fair enough, dont underestimate the confidence Buddy's scalp will give him.

Be interesting with Jones this week, will probably get 2 metre Peter as an opponent or Chris Burgess.....the latter is a good mark for a 191cm smaller key forward and can play at both ends of the ground but has been used a bit as a decoy/stopper so far and might take Jones or Weitering in a negative role and try and drag them away from play and leave room for players like Sexton to do his thing.

Be interesting with Jones this week, will probably get 2 metre Peter as an opponent or Chris Burgess.....the latter is a good mark for a 191cm smaller key forward and can play at both ends of the ground but has been used a bit as a decoy/stopper so far and might take Jones or Weitering in a negative role and try and drag them away from play and leave room for players like Sexton to do his thing.

Jones -> Wright
Weitering -> Burgess
Marchbank -> Sexton

Should have them covered. Should.

Think Plowman will get first crack on Sexton, they want Marchbank and Newman rebounding more tha lock down defending

If BB goes - who replaces him?

For starters, no matter how badly we do this year, a new senior coach appointment probably wouldn't be made until the end of the season, or near the end. However, that doesn't prevent an interim coach from being appointed. Teague would be the obvious choice, and if it happened, he'd have xyz number of games to prove himself/throw his hat into the ring.

Jones -> Wright
Weitering -> Burgess
Marchbank -> Sexton

Should have them covered. Should.

Fair enough...I'd have Newman as my backup for Marchbank on Sexton.....the latter is very elusive and maybe a bit slippery in that 25 degree heat.
Another player I would tag is Fiorini, a very underated leftie but a real cog in their midfield and uses the ball as well as anyone in the comp.....maybe use Fisher on him.

No. Good on him for trying to beat his man fair and square, rather than resorting to short cuts. I see him as a poor man's Southby, and that's a very good thing IMO. And I hope his good start to the season continues for the rest of his career. The sort of player you really root for and really wish for a fairytale career, because we all like to see nice guys win.

Having said that, he does drive me crazy at times.

And obviously being of a similar vintage I can recall the great GS, very, very well. He and Dench pioneered the attacking/running full back. Beautiful foot skills and sublime judgement but LJ is very, very different. Agility and speed that GS could've only dreamt of.

With GS you knew what you were getting, week in, week out. Capt Dependable personified. LJ is certainly unpredictable, but gets to contests that others only dream of being able to get to. Superior second, third efforts. I'm a fan of LJ, for his ability, attitude and for the romance of the story of his 'rescued career' since moving to defence. I bet he just keeps improving.

We're just drifting off topic a bit here....a lot actually

Seems we've run out of BB replacements after a few suggestions which is why he's probably safe, at least until the end of the year.

If folk could bring discussion back to the thread title ….and maybe repost their matchups and player comments in the pre game thread or last weeks post game (both apply)... it will save us some cleaning up time.

Think Plowman will get first crack on Sexton, they want Marchbank and Newman rebounding more tha lock down defending

Maybe...Sexton isnt a big possie winner, more the sneaky, cunning type who gets on the end of play....been a real average player IMO till last season where he
kicked around 30 goals. I dont think he will be a big problem unless we are guarding grass again rather than players......


er sorry for being off topic....

Replacement for Bolton......Brett Ratten......

And obviously being of a similar vintage I can recall the great GS, very, very well. He and Dench pioneered the attacking/running full back. Beautiful foot skills and sublime judgement but LJ is very, very different. Agility and speed that GS could've only dreamt of.

With GS you knew what you were getting, week in, week out. Capt Dependable personified. LJ is certainly unpredictable, but gets to contests that others only dream of being able to get to. Superior second, third efforts. I'm a fan of LJ, for his ability, attitude and for the romance of the story of his 'rescued career' since moving to defence. I bet he just keeps improving.

Sorry, perhaps I was too brief in my other post. My comparison was more about them being scrupulously fair, honourable defenders. Unfortunately I've only seen Southby on Youtube and old TV footage, which I don't think really captures all that he was capable of. I envy you - I would love to have seen all those CFC greats from the 70's, live and in their prime, playing in terrific, successful teams. I'm sure you treasure those memories.

Sorry, perhaps I was too brief in my other post. My comparison was more about them being scrupulously fair, honourable defenders. Unfortunately I've only seen Southby on Youtube and old TV footage, which I don't think really captures all that he was capable of. I envy you - I would love to have seen all those CFC greats from the 70's, live and in their prime, playing in terrific, successful teams. I'm sure you treasure those memories.

Sorry PP, wrong assumption on my part. GS was something to see, and, as you mention, scrupulously fair... like Liam.

Believe me, often it's those memories that keep me going (my interest in footy). Ah, watching Ragsy Goold sweep across half back, Swan McKay dominate the contested marking duels, Jezz, Wallsy, but my fave of that era was (yes, I know I've posted it before) Brent Crosswell... sublime skills and plenty of attitude/mongrel. My avatar will tell you who my faves were from our next successful era. Mm, wondering off topic... sorry about that. But if we're going to mention sublime talents, Peter Motley was another instant fave when he arrived...

Um, just to stay on topic, Brad Scott might be a name to consider re a potential future coach. I know he polarises people but he does have the ability to get the best out of what he has. That'll heat up the topic again!!! Okay, go your hardest!!

We're just drifting off topic a bit here....a lot actually

Seems we've run out of BB replacements after a few suggestions which is why he's probably safe, at least until the end of the year.

If folk could bring discussion back to the thread title ….and maybe repost their matchups and player comments in the pre game thread or last weeks post game (both apply)... it will save us some cleaning up time.

Teague would be a terrific caretaker.

Brad Scott....?  Captain Baggers,  you've neglected your medication again.

God dam Vulcan's.

The club has bet the farm on this rebuild, and I believe it is one of those "failure is not an option" scenarios. We have, IMO, backed ourselves into a corner, so in a very real sense, we have to make it work. If we finish bottom 4, as seems likely, and then we sack Bolton, what person in their right mind will want to come and coach us ? Only insiders like Teague or Barker will want the job. We have to see it through IMO.

Even as things stand now, I can't see either of the Scott twins having any interest and Ratten certainly won't come back. Lyon keeps getting mentioned, because of connection to SOS, but it's a long bow to draw IMO.

The club has bet the farm on this rebuild, and I believe it is one of those "failure is not an option" scenarios. We have, IMO, backed ourselves into a corner, so in a very real sense, we have to make it work. If we finish bottom 4, as seems likely, and then we sack Bolton, what person in their right mind will want to come and coach us ? Only insiders like Teague or Barker will want the job. We have to see it through IMO.

Even as things stand now, I can't see either of the Scott twins having any interest and Ratten certainly won't come back. Lyon keeps getting mentioned, because of connection to SOS, but it's a long bow to draw IMO.

Pauly make no mistake, candidates would queue up just as they did after MM's ugly departure. Having said that, I agree with you in that they will see it through.

The club has bet the farm on this rebuild, and I believe it is one of those "failure is not an option" scenarios. We have, IMO, backed ourselves into a corner, so in a very real sense, we have to make it work. If we finish bottom 4, as seems likely, and then we sack Bolton, what person in their right mind will want to come and coach us ? Only insiders like Teague or Barker will want the job. We have to see it through IMO.

Even as things stand now, I can't see either of the Scott twins having any interest and Ratten certainly won't come back. Lyon keeps getting mentioned, because of connection to SOS, but it's a long bow to draw IMO.

In some respects it's not the club that's bet the farm on the rebuild  but certain individuals within the club.
Some of those have already departed.
A new power group could easily distance themselves from that strategy.

Bolton is pretty well safe for the rest of this year.
But if things don't improve the pressure will only increase.

What would we do if it was a 'no signs of improvement' situation at the end of this year.
If replacing him is a bad option...surely sticking with him and the angst and damage in terms of division would be an equally poor option.
Hopefully the move upwards begins soon but...
At some stage the bullet would have to be bit.

As Paul suggests though  "Who would want the poison chalice?"
The likely scenario in that situation is that Bolton would not be the only casualty....rather a board challenge and a clean sweep of many positions would occur.
That challenge would bring with it a "new" probably "high profile" coach.

Pauly make no mistake, candidates would queue up just as they did after MM's ugly departure. Having said that, I agree with you in that they will see it through.

IMO, if we sack Bolton this season, we will look like a joke and a rabble. If I was a coaching candidate, I would avoid us like the plague. I'd be wanting to land a job at places like Geelong or the Pies, who do proper reviews, make sensible plans and stick to those plans, not just take the easy option and sack the coach when the going gets tough. 

In some respects it's not the club that's bet the farm on the rebuild  but certain individuals within the club.
Some of those have already departed.
A new power group could easily distance themselves from that strategy.

Bolton is pretty well safe for the rest of this year.
But if things don't improve the pressure will only increase.

What would we do if it was a 'no signs of improvement' situation at the end of this year.
If replacing him is a bad option...surely sticking with him and the angst and damage in terms of division would be an equally poor option.
Hopefully the move upwards begins soon but...
At some stage the bullet would have to be bit.

As Paul suggests though  "Who would want the poison chalice?"
The likely scenario in that situation is that Bolton would not be the only casualty....rather a board challenge and a clean sweep of many positions would occur.
That challenge would bring with it a "new" probably "high profile" coach.

Bomber Thompson at Geelong, and Buckley at the Pies have already been mentioned, so no need to do it again. The end of the 2020 season is when any real discussions about Bolton should occur. Anything before that is too early IMO.

Bomber Thompson at Geelong, and Buckley at the Pies have already been mentioned, so no need to do it again. The end of the 2020 season is when any real discussions about Bolton should occur. Anything before that is too early IMO.

I don't think we control the time frame.
That's a bit above our pay grade.
Results will largely decide when and if the axe falls....and change becomes easier to sell with each loss.
On the other hand a few wins have an amazingly stabilizing effect.

Bomber Thompson at Geelong, and Buckley at the Pies have already been mentioned, so no need to do it again. The end of the 2020 season is when any real discussions about Bolton should occur. Anything before that is too early IMO.

I very much doubt Bomber will be available....

I very much doubt Bomber will be available....

I think he means that their history points to not sacking Bolton until we can call the rebuild a failure.

FWIW I'm making a call, we'll start another rebuild at the end of 2021.  Either our experienced players will pull the pin leaving us with big holes to fill, or our kids wont be stepping up by then leaving us with holes to fill.

Either way there will be holes to fill.

I don't think we control the time frame.
That's a bit above our pay grade.
Results will largely decide when and if the axe falls....and change becomes easier to sell with each loss.
On the other hand a few wins have an amazingly stabilizing effect.

I think failing to see the rebuild to the end of the 2020 season will be a disaster. That will compounded by your previous idea that a rival group could make a power play at board level, which will simply destabilise the club further. The main architects of the current rebuild (SOS, Bolton, MLG, Judd), will in all likelihood be pushed out. Zero chance of attracting any decent coach under such circumstances.

http://bit.ly/2VHgv5y

“Why Carlton’s Green Shoots Aren’t Sprouting”

Interesting reading....

http://bit.ly/2VHgv5y

Interesting reading....

Comparing 3 games vs 22 games is folly. At any rate, the first half of that story gives the "what", the 2nd half gives the "why." Nothing that hasn't been noted on here already. 

Zero chance of attracting any decent coach under such circumstances.

I think right about now the trophy hunters get interested in the spoils, before things start to look up but after the bulk of the hard work is done.

Something to always remember as they grow louder!

I think right about now the trophy hunters get interested in the spoils, before things start to look up but after the bulk of the hard work is done.

Something to always remember as they grow louder!

Except that the current trophy hunters will end up like their predecessors, stuffed and mounted on a wall in the CFC trophy room, by which time, it will be too late.

Except that the current trophy hunters will end up like their predecessors, stuffed and mounted on a wall in the CFC trophy room, by which time, it will be too late.

There are few if any trophy hunters in place at the moment, they are never around when things look tough long term. By nature they are ambush predators, hiding under a rock somewhere throughout the winter waiting for spring to arrive!

Above it was stated that the club should have run a proper process when taking on the coach.   Didn't the club undertake  "thorough assessment and review process" when Bolton was hired? Even got in some soccer bloke.

Comparing 3 games vs 22 games is folly. At any rate, the first half of that story gives the "what", the 2nd half gives the "why." Nothing that hasn't been noted on here already.

I think it goes deeper than just 3 games, PP. Although only a whisker over a 10% sample (of season 2019 - and many surveys use less of a sample to draw incisive conclusions) it is, however (to be micro, even pedantic), more than 300 minutes divided into 12 blocks. And from this sample size much is gleaned and much is disappointing, even damning.

The article makes solid, indisputable conclusion / statements about our club. We are now, clearly, the worst club in the competition.

The footy world knows that the Dees and Kangabies will come good as what they are dishing up is out of character (what we're dishing up is in character). For the Kangabies it's more difficult as their talent stocks are thinner this year, much thinner than ours. With us, the footy world is just seeing more of the same... more talent (fewer non-hackers) but still the same, which makes our present predicament even worse.

http://bit.ly/2VHgv5y

“Why Carlton’s Green Shoots Aren’t Sprouting”

Interesting reading....

Interesting indeed. Our endurance and strength of character as a club are being stress tested for sure and the lack of wins tests everyone's belief in ultimate success. I really do not know for how long this can be sustained but if we end up with the same number of wins, or God forbid fewer wins, or even only a couple more than last year then I suspect further dramatic events at the club could well unfold. Fasten your seat belts.

I think it goes deeper than just 3 games, PP. Although only a whisker over a 10% sample (of season 2019 - and many surveys use less of a sample to draw incisive conclusions) it is, however (to be micro, even pedantic), more than 300 minutes divided into 12 blocks. And from this sample size much is gleaned and much is disappointing, even damning.

The article makes solid, indisputable conclusion / statements about our club. We are now, clearly, the worst club in the competition.

The footy world knows that the Dees and Kangabies will come good as what they are dishing up is out of character (what we're dishing up is in character). For the Kangabies it's more difficult as their talent stocks are thinner this year, much thinner than ours. With us, the footy world is just seeing more of the same... more talent (fewer non-hackers) but still the same, which makes our present predicament even worse.

The article starts off given very selective stats, then goes on to qualify those numbers by commenting on the relative youth of the players, particularly the mids, and goes on to mention that the club stated at the outset that they were embarking on a 3 year rebuild, that Bolton now has the list he wants, and now has the task of growing the team into a competitive, winning unit.

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/26475885/why-blues-green-shoots-spouting

Comparing 3 games vs 22 games is folly. At any rate, the first half of that story gives the "what", the 2nd half gives the "why." Nothing that hasn't been noted on here already.

It's more the 3 wins from 35. In 2017 we won 6 games and led 7 other times in last qtrs before losing. 13 times we led in the last qtr. Since then we have gone along way backwards. That's the issue. We've won 15 games from 69, 12 in the first half of Bolton's tenure, 6 of those wins in 7 games. So outside of that burst we've won 9 whole games. Irrespective of where you're at as a club that is diabolical.

All facts need to be seen in context, facts used to win arguments are simply bullets being fired to prove a point are just being used to reinforce an already held preconception. Facts should be used to enlighten not prove. The reality is that we have played a top 4 side, a top 8 side and a top 12 side in the first three weeks. We played Richmond with there whole fab 4 and haven't been anywhere near as good without them, we played Port away and we played Sydney at Etihad which actually suits them, I would have liked to have got them on the bigger MCG. Gold Coast on the other hand have played 3 bottom six sides. Clearly we have played better than last year but we still haven't won anything. This will be our second interstate trip and travel is more difficult for Victorian sides than non-Victorian sides because interstate travel would be built into a non-Victorian sides normal processes. Gold Coast will be our first bottom six side whereas we will be there fourth. Clearly the Membership and the supporters are backing the Club at the moment which is demonstrated by the attendance and the Membership numbers, however we really need to win.

It's more the 3 wins from 35. In 2017 we won 6 games and led 7 other times in last qtrs before losing. 13 times we led in the last qtr. Since then we have gone along way backwards. That's the issue. We've won 15 games from 69, 12 in the first half of Bolton's tenure, 6 of those wins in 7 games. So outside of that burst we've won 9 whole games. Irrespective of where you're at as a club that is diabolical.

But Bolton was the coach in 2017 ! Doesn't that tell you something ? Do you think he's forgotten how to coach ? Don't tell me you think "he's lost the players" ?

All facts need to be seen in context, facts used to win arguments are simply bullets being fired to prove a point are just being used to reinforce an already held preconception. Facts should be used to enlighten not prove. The reality is that we have played a top 4 side, a top 8 side and a top 12 side in the first three weeks. We played Richmond with there whole fab 4 and haven't been anywhere near as good without them, we played Port away and we played Sydney at Etihad which actually suits them, I would have liked to have got them on the bigger MCG. Gold Coast on the other hand have played 3 bottom six sides. Clearly we have played better than last year but we still haven't won anything. This will be our second interstate trip and travel is more difficult for Victorian sides than non-Victorian sides because interstate travel would be built into a non-Victorian sides normal processes. Gold Coast will be our first bottom six side whereas we will be there fourth. Clearly the Membership and the supporters are backing the Club at the moment which is demonstrated by the attendance and the Membership numbers, however we really need to win.

Nice post BM. I'm one of the few who's not fussed about winning at this point. My hope is that we stay injury and trouble free and can get our best 22 out there most weeks. We need to see if the team can gel and if this rebuild is legit or not. My hope is that we can jag a few wins after the bye with our best 22 playing regularly.

How are you judging how strong teams are?

Are Melbourne a top 4 side?

But Bolton was the coach in 2017 ! Doesn't that tell you something ? Do you think he's forgotten how to coach ? Don't tell me you think "he's lost the players" ?

Simple thinking.

Tells you he's not taking the next step and we're heading backwards. Once he had to get out of our defensive way we were playing early on he was lost. Ceased to get the best out of the players. That's been obvious. Game plan we have no idea of, we are very poorly drilled. 3 wins out of 35, what does that tell you. There's no argument there. That is diabolical. Fact is he's sent us backwards in 2 years. You point to what you want, I'll put to the scoreboard.

All facts need to be seen in context, facts used to win arguments are simply bullets being fired to prove a point are just being used to reinforce an already held preconception. Facts should be used to enlighten not prove. The reality is that we have played a top 4 side, a top 8 side and a top 12 side in the first three weeks. We played Richmond with there whole fab 4 and haven't been anywhere near as good without them, we played Port away and we played Sydney at Etihad which actually suits them, I would have liked to have got them on the bigger MCG. Gold Coast on the other hand have played 3 bottom six sides. Clearly we have played better than last year but we still haven't won anything. This will be our second interstate trip and travel is more difficult for Victorian sides than non-Victorian sides because interstate travel would be built into a non-Victorian sides normal processes. Gold Coast will be our first bottom six side whereas we will be there fourth. Clearly the Membership and the supporters are backing the Club at the moment which is demonstrated by the attendance and the Membership numbers, however we really need to win.

Facts are 3 wins out of 35. Goes beyond this year. We've been full of honorable losses since the start with no progression.

Simple thinking.

Tells you he's not taking the next step and we're heading backwards. Once he had to get out of our defensive way we were playing early on he was lost. Ceased to get the best out of the players. That's been obvious. Game plan we have no idea of, we are very poorly drilled. 3 wins out of 35, what does that tell you. There's no argument there. That is diabolical. Fact is he's sent us backwards in 2 years. You point to what you want, I'll put to the scoreboard.

Right - so you're the one calling to sack the coach, yet I'm the one accused of "simple thinking."

What his record tells you is that in 3 years of a very deep rebuild, he's had little to work with. Even Clarkson would have struggled to do better. You won't turn the Mullet's and O'Shea's of this world into good footballers and good users of the footy by terrorising them. All the sprays from Clarko, Barassi etc. won't make a difference. Up until now, we cannot, at least IMO, say the problem is the coach. The fun starts now.

I'm definitely no fan or honorable losses. I remember thinking during the last game "I am so sick of losing"
I want to be able to start watching games with my son. At the moment Im shielding him from games as I know he wont continue supporting if we are losing every week, and at 6 years old, why would he.
BUT..
Seriously, this is the 4th coach we have had since we were last successful.
When does it become something other than the coach that is causing our losses?
When does it become a folly to keep sacking coaches for lack of results?
4 coaches who have struggled to get the team working properly. That tells me more about the team than it does about just the coach.
We are turning over around 25% of our list each year. That may be one reason we seem to lack cohesion, and why we are struggling to get with a game plan consistently.

A couple of seasons back we had a period of ugly wins and losses interspersed with hidings but people complained even louder!

I didn't notice the Swans changing their game plan under Roos when everyone accused them of winning ugly! They basically won ugly for almost a decade, and can attribute a flag to winning ugly 58 - 54! It's probably still one of the best GFs ever, after finishing the season 3rd with the lowest points For out of the top 13 teams!

What would Carlton fans give for an ugly win now?

We've failed because we have let the media set our club's agenda, at least that his how it appears, clearly after being bullied our club changed emphasis in the game plan if not a radical change in total. Since then we've heard some faint praise from the media which leaves me cynical, because I can't say we look closer to a genuine win although cursory appearance is better.

Until we start pissing on the media instead of letting them piss in our pockets we'll not improve. There is a reason they are just media and not AFL players, coaches or administrators. They'd be NFG!

I'm definitely no fan or honorable losses. I remember thinking during the last game "I am so sick of losing"
I want to be able to start watching games with my son. At the moment Im shielding him from games as I know he wont continue supporting if we are losing every week, and at 6 years old, why would he.
BUT..
Seriously, this is the 4th coach we have had since we were last successful.
When does it become something other than the coach that is causing our losses?
When does it become a folly to keep sacking coaches for lack of results?
4 coaches who have struggled to get the team working properly. That tells me more about the team than it does about just the coach.
We are turning over around 25% of our list each year. That may be one reason we seem to lack cohesion, and why we are struggling to get with a game plan consistently.

I agree. If you start counting from Pagan, it's 5 including Barker as caretaker, whose results were not great either.

As for your son, my 2 cents is to let him enjoy watching GWS play. He'll come around soon enough.

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember we were a finals side, or close to it, from about 2009 to 20013

This has been a deliberate gutting rather than a more moderate transition
That's fair enough but folk have to start taking some ownership of that,

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember we were a finals side, or close to it, from about 2009 to 20013

This has been a deliberate gutting rather than a more moderate transition
That's fair enough but folk have to start taking some ownership of that,

Everything done so far we've done to ourselves, nobody can tell me BB changed the game plan due to external media pressure, the pressure to change the game plan came from pressure high up within the club!

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember we were a finals side, or close to it, from about 2009 to 20013

This has been a deliberate gutting rather than a more moderate transition
That's fair enough but folk have to start taking some ownership of that,

I agree. And that IMO, starts to happen from here on in.

But Bolton was the coach in 2017 ! Doesn't that tell you something ? Do you think he's forgotten how to coach ? Don't tell me you think "he's lost the players" ?

7 wins in a season is hardly something to suggest great coaching ability. BB, sadly, at this stage, seems to be a one-dimensional coach... defensive & conservative. He does that well. And as that rootin' tootin' Magnum 45 tot'n dude once said... 'Man's got to know his limitations.'

7 wins in a season is hardly something to suggest great coaching ability. BB, sadly, at this stage, seems to be a one-dimensional coach... defensive & conservative. He does that well. And as that rootin' tootin' Magnum 45 tot'n dude once said... 'Man's got to know his limitations.'

You and others are firmly wedded to the fact that the coach is the problem. I am firmly wedded to the idea that he isn't. I'm not going to budge at this point, and neither are you. Perhaps we should just leave it there for now.

It's more the 3 wins from 35. In 2017 we won 6 games and led 7 other times in last qtrs before losing. 13 times we led in the last qtr. Since then we have gone along way backwards. That's the issue. We've won 15 games from 69, 12 in the first half of Bolton's tenure, 6 of those wins in 7 games. So outside of that burst we've won 9 whole games. Irrespective of where you're at as a club that is diabolical.

Let me simplify this argument for you.

Record of Carlton Games played with Sam Docherty:  6 wins from 22 matches in 2017

Record of Carlton Games played without Sam Docherty:  2 wins from 25 matches ever since.

If you expand that out to Matty Kreuzer, we have managed to win 1 game with either of them missing since the start of 2017 (it was against the Gold Coast in QLD last year).


It speaks for how reliant we are on our better players to perform.

Let me simplify this argument for you.

Record of Carlton Games played with Sam Docherty:  6 wins from 22 matches in 2017

Record of Carlton Games played without Sam Docherty:  2 wins from 25 matches ever since.

If you expand that out to Matty Kreuzer, we have managed to win 1 game with either of them missing since the start of 2017 (it was against the Gold Coast in QLD last year).


It speaks for how reliant we are on our better players to perform.

….and therin lies one of our major problems.

Contrary to popular belief the consistent core of this team is not it's youth.
Apart from one or two they're just fringe players for the present accumulating game time
No,the majority of our core starting 22 is an aging group, an injury affected group and a player with the shoulders of Atlas.
Some will depart within a year or two, others may never fully break free of the injury curse...…. and heaven help us if Atlas gets a "shoulder injury"

….and therin lies one of our major problems.

Contrary to popular belief the consistent core of this team is not it's youth.
Apart from one or two they're just fringe players for the present accumulating game time
No,the majority of our core starting 22 is an aging group, an injury affected group and a player with the shoulders of Atlas.
Some will depart within a year or two, others may never fully break free of the injury curse...…. and heaven help us if Atlas gets a "shoulder injury"

x2 it's a huge worry.

By now you would have expected some of "the others" to have moments of brilliance or games of significance, but they just haven't! :o

It would be nice before the end of the season to see one or two of "the others" take a game by the throat and delivery a win on a platter!

….and therin lies one of our major problems.

Contrary to popular belief the consistent core of this team is not it's youth.
Apart from one or two they're just fringe players for the present accumulating game time
No,the majority of our core starting 22 is an aging group, an injury affected group and a player with the shoulders of Atlas.
Some will depart within a year or two, others may never fully break free of the injury curse...…. and heaven help us if Atlas gets a "shoulder injury"

Might get a shoulder injury carrying all that money that WC and Freo will throw at him in a couple of years...

You and others are firmly wedded to the fact that the coach is the problem. I am firmly wedded to the idea that he isn't. I'm not going to budge at this point, and neither are you. Perhaps we should just leave it there for now.

Wo, wo, wo... not so quick  ;)

I don't see the senior coach as the single problem. Nuh. He's doing the best he can with what he knows. He comes out with shallow, ambiguous, psychobabble phrases and cliches but who's to know whether or not he's being fed these to keep the gullible supporters at bay by someone else at the club? It's just that when your team is consistently and persistently losing, the buck has to stop somewhere. And not to replace someone just so it doesn't seem like the 'old Carlton' has returned is absolute bullshizen.

Just for the record I think we have a few problems, from the outside looking in.

Over the past few seasons we've tried to nail some quality players only to be out done by others on every occasion. Just a couple of A graders, mid 20s going around would have helped. We apparently set up a philanthropic organisation some years ago to help relieve GWS of their non-hackers and chronically injured. So SOS hasn't performed well enough in my view - holy cr@p, I've had a go at another Bambi! Sheesh, talk about keyboard masochism!!!

I suspect that Barker is deadwood and should have moved on years ago.

A divided Board. One of them, a key player, makes piles of loot from human suffering and illness (gambling). Yeah, I can just hear some say, "Well no-one is forcing them to gamble... and it's legal." A fool's response. A response devoid of emotional intelligence and common decency. Not to mention psychological ignorance... convenient ignorance.

Comfortable assistant coaches. Most have coached in their own right. Why didn't they progress? Why did they fall back into assistant coaching? Huge cleanout needed there. Get some mongrel, uncompromising, razor blade eating, ambitious folks into key assistant roles... that includes women, there are some ripper female brains -- who've not been snapped up by the AFLW -- out there deserving a serious opportunity at the highest level.

The head of football, Juddy, has one single love and one single love only (outside his family, presumably) - money. Seems to be his real passion, lights up like Julian Clary on tour when the subject of investment and money comes up. He likes to rub shoulders with wealthy influential people to further his own 'portfolio'... and there is nothing wrong with that, some just love money. Juddy would be a great investment banker, and have no doubts had the Pratt Family been at Rottingwood, he'd have gone there. As for head of footy at PP, jury is out. Sh1te, I've done it again... I've taken aim at another Bambi!

So, who knows, maybe BB is holding the can / taking the heat for a measure of incompetence right through the place. But the buck stops somewhere.

Time will tell, and many aboard the good ship CFC should notice that there's not only a senior coach gang plank being put in place. If this rebuild doesn't work (looking like it) then many should be 'walking the plank.'

Of course we need a win but the three teams we've lost to are good teams, noting Port at home are usually very tough.

Arguably our best player after Cripps - Charlie - hasn't fired a shot yet. He needs too, injury notwithstanding.

We need Kreuzer on the park and we need to look for a long term replacement for him - Phillips - not seeing it (yet) tbh.

The GWS curse - yep, many seem injury cursed but ALL are capable of being very good players if the cards fall their way.

Some elite eg Setterfield, Marchbank and Pickett.

Pickett - who does appear cursed - is still only 22, a baby in AFL terms. Plow (Phillips aside) is the eldest of the ex GWS clique - he's only 24.5 ffs.

The rest are 21 or 22.

I'm not over whelmed by Bolts either but he needs time for the cake to rise surely?

I'm not over whelmed by Bolts either but he needs time for the cake to rise surely?

I think we starting to see evidence of this now. Each week they seem to be improving, each week the start to take the step forward. So far we have been more than competitive in our games, and our best players have been some of the younger generation next.

x2 it's a huge worry.

By now you would have expected some of "the others" to have moments of brilliance or games of significance, but they just haven't! :o

It would be nice before the end of the season to see one or two of "the others" take a game by the throat and delivery a win on a platter!

The thing is we actually are improving.

Jones and weitering are putting in game winning performances, as are little Zac Fisher and SPS.   The problem is we cant seem to get them firing together, and we are still carrying far too many others that aren't even playing cameos.

It's why Ed's not in the guts and playing forward.

The cliff seems to have come for Simpson (was bound to) and Murphy might have run out of time too.  I noted he warmed up in runners again for round 1 and suspect he hasn't got long left.

Kreuzer and Docherty are two we have gambled on getting fit and out there performing but unfortunately it hasn't worked.

We simply need more time.

The thing is we actually are improving.

Jones and weitering are putting in game winning performances, as are little Zac Fisher and SPS.   The problem is we cant seem to get them firing together, and we are still carrying far too many others that aren't even playing cameos.

It's why Ed's not in the guts and playing forward.

The cliff seems to have come for Simpson (was bound to) and Murphy might have run out of time too.  I noted he warmed up in runners again for round 1 and suspect he hasn't got long left.

Kreuzer and Docherty are two we have gambled on getting fit and out there performing but unfortunately it hasn't worked.

We simply need more time.

I've been underwhelmed by Fisher this year tbh. Perhaps, like Charlie,he's caught up in his own press?

I expected a lot more.

I've been underwhelmed by Fisher this year tbh. Perhaps, like Charlie,he's caught up in his own press?

I expected a lot more.

I'm beginning to wonder what effect the new rules may be having on some players and the roles they play? I have a fantasy team and many players, not only mine, seem significantly down on form and stats so far this year.

He is coming back from a broken leg.

He is coming back from a broken leg.

But completed a full pre season without incident?

Zac Fisher is playing as well as he ever has.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/Z/Zac_Fisher.html


The expectations on him have gone up, but his performances haven't improved (not that he needed to that much more to continue contributing) in line with that.  He is less flashy, and more consistent at the moment, and I am ok with that for a kid entering his 3rd year of senior footy after breaking his leg last year.

His contested posessions are actually higher this season than they were last season.  His uncontested lower, but not a far cry.

Its only a small sample size, but I was worried he would go into his shell this season, and thus far, he hasnt.  If anything he is wearing a bit more attention than he did last season, and is still contributing which is a big tick.  His 6 tackles in round 1 (particularly on Dusty) is a real highlight.



The reality is our senior players have dropped off, and our kids are not stepping up as much as we would have liked but the trend is still that the kids are stepping up, and so long as that continues, we should be ok.  The underlying worry and major concern is that our seniors have gone really far backwards which is why the kids are under huge pressure to stand up.  Ideally (and at most other AFL clubs) they would still be giving us bits and pieces on the fringes whilst our senior players do the heavy lifting which isnt the case.

Zac Fisher is playing as well as he ever has.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/Z/Zac_Fisher.html


The expectations on him have gone up, but his performances haven't improved (not that he needed to that much more to continue contributing) in line with that.  He is less flashy, and more consistent at the moment, and I am ok with that for a kid entering his 3rd year of senior footy after breaking his leg last year.

His contested posessions are actually higher this season than they were last season.  His uncontested lower, but not a far cry.

Its only a small sample size, but I was worried he would go into his shell this season, and thus far, he hasnt.  If anything he is wearing a bit more attention than he did last season, and is still contributing which is a big tick.  His 6 tackles in round 1 (particularly on Dusty) is a real highlight.



The reality is our senior players have dropped off, and our kids are not stepping up as much as we would have liked but the trend is still that the kids are stepping up, and so long as that continues, we should be ok.  The underlying worry and major concern is that our seniors have gone really far backwards which is why the kids are under huge pressure to stand up.  Ideally (and at most other AFL clubs) they would still be giving us bits and pieces on the fringes whilst our senior players do the heavy lifting which isnt the case.

Fisher has been getting more attention and even been tagged at stoppages..Powell Pepper had him in the Port game, he along with SPS is one of the few you would trust with
the ball to hit a target and i think other teams are doing their homework a lot more on us.
I mentioned Josh Kennedy from the Swans was tagging Cripps at the stoppages but some didnt agree, did the same with Clayton Oliver last night....more and more as our kids develop they will have to cope with more attention from better players and its the teams who can spread the load across more players who do the best.
Players like Murphy who dont do much damage with the ball will be the ones who will get less attention but need to lift and pick up the slack when kids like Fisher are being covered....

Zac Fisher is playing as well as he ever has.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/Z/Zac_Fisher.html


The expectations on him have gone up, but his performances haven't improved (not that he needed to that much more to continue contributing) in line with that.  He is less flashy, and more consistent at the moment, and I am ok with that for a kid entering his 3rd year of senior footy after breaking his leg last year.

His contested posessions are actually higher this season than they were last season.  His uncontested lower, but not a far cry.

Its only a small sample size, but I was worried he would go into his shell this season, and thus far, he hasnt.  If anything he is wearing a bit more attention than he did last season, and is still contributing which is a big tick.  His 6 tackles in round 1 (particularly on Dusty) is a real highlight.



The reality is our senior players have dropped off, and our kids are not stepping up as much as we would have liked but the trend is still that the kids are stepping up, and so long as that continues, we should be ok.  The underlying worry and major concern is that our seniors have gone really far backwards which is why the kids are under huge pressure to stand up.  Ideally (and at most other AFL clubs) they would still be giving us bits and pieces on the fringes whilst our senior players do the heavy lifting which isnt the case.

Zac, Samo, Dow, LOB, etc. current progressions dictates where we are at more than anything else.

Until these guys make that leap up to collecting 30odd possessions per week we won't be any sort of decent team.

Is Fisher achieving the same efficiency in addition to the same number of possessions?

If I made a subject assessment I'd think he's getting the footy as much as ever but he's not using it as well as last season, he's under more pressure this year. At least that is how it appears to me! :o

I think we starting to see evidence of this now. Each week they seem to be improving, each week the start to take the step forward. So far we have been more than competitive in our games, and our best players have been some of the younger generation next.

We play well in patches because we seem to do the team thing, playing the roles each player has been given. Then for some reason the team goes into shock or sleep and goes through the motions only to snap out of it to play well again to unluckily fall short.
Like Harford said with the girls, if they all follow the team plan for 4q then the reults will come and they did (except for the last game).
Play your role, follow the team game.
This is all being said hoping BB knows the Team's Plan first.  :o

Is Fisher achieving the same efficiency in addition to the same number of possessions?

If I made a subject assessment I'd think he's getting the footy as much as ever but he's not using it as well as last season, he's under more pressure this year. At least that is how it appears to me! :o

Accurate.  The stats show his clangers are up, but by the same token last season he was getting it more uncontested and this year he is more contested.

It shows he is working more inside than outside as well as wearing more pressure whilst in the process of taking posession.

Hence the decrease in efficiency.

Its all anecdotal anyway.  He is not as bad as advertised, and is playing as well as he can.

We play well in patches because we seem to do the team thing, playing the roles each player has been given. Then for some reason the team goes into shock or sleep and goes through the motions only to snap out of it to play well again to unluckily fall short.
Like Harford said with the girls, if they all follow the team plan for 4q then the reults will come and they did (except for the last game).
Play your role, follow the team game.
This is all being said hoping BB knows the Team's Plan first.  :o

I think this is a symptom of what our opposition are doing too. We are on top when we have our more experienced players doing the heavy lifting (Say Cripps and Murphy with SPS in tow) whilst in other rotations, (where its walsh, dow and Cripps) we might be facing our oppositions strongest on ball division.  Hence why our competitiveness drops off.  Its that transition.  When we can start taking one out, and bringing one in, with little effect our competitiveness will remarkably improve.

This is one way you know our issues are not coaching related.  Under Malthouse, by his third year, it was glaringly apparent that the only time we were competitive was when our opposition wasnt.  At the moment, our opposition is competitive, but we are simply being outgunned by more experienced players because we field a team who are simply less battle hardened and rely on older players that simply cannot stand up week in and week out.

Its also why Brisbane are "further ahead".  Their youth isnt as young and inexperienced as ours and their older players are 24/7 contributers as opposed to our lot that dont show up every week.

Its all anecdotal anyway.  He is not as bad as advertised, and is playing as well as he can.

Yep, plus we have to expect anyway that his role has changed with Setterfield and Walsh in there, ignoring the rule changes as well!

Wo, wo, wo... not so quick  ;)

I don't see the senior coach as the single problem. Nuh. He's doing the best he can with what he knows. He comes out with shallow, ambiguous, psychobabble phrases and cliches but who's to know whether or not he's being fed these to keep the gullible supporters at bay by someone else at the club? It's just that when your team is consistently and persistently losing, the buck has to stop somewhere. And not to replace someone just so it doesn't seem like the 'old Carlton' has returned is absolute bullshizen.

Just for the record I think we have a few problems, from the outside looking in.

Over the past few seasons we've tried to nail some quality players only to be out done by others on every occasion. Just a couple of A graders, mid 20s going around would have helped. We apparently set up a philanthropic organisation some years ago to help relieve GWS of their non-hackers and chronically injured. So SOS hasn't performed well enough in my view - holy cr@p, I've had a go at another Bambi! Sheesh, talk about keyboard masochism!!!

I suspect that Barker is deadwood and should have moved on years ago.

A divided Board. One of them, a key player, makes piles of loot from human suffering and illness (gambling). Yeah, I can just hear some say, "Well no-one is forcing them to gamble... and it's legal." A fool's response. A response devoid of emotional intelligence and common decency. Not to mention psychological ignorance... convenient ignorance.

Comfortable assistant coaches. Most have coached in their own right. Why didn't they progress? Why did they fall back into assistant coaching? Huge cleanout needed there. Get some mongrel, uncompromising, razor blade eating, ambitious folks into key assistant roles... that includes women, there are some ripper female brains -- who've not been snapped up by the AFLW -- out there deserving a serious opportunity at the highest level.

The head of football, Juddy, has one single love and one single love only (outside his family, presumably) - money. Seems to be his real passion, lights up like Julian Clary on tour when the subject of investment and money comes up. He likes to rub shoulders with wealthy influential people to further his own 'portfolio'... and there is nothing wrong with that, some just love money. Juddy would be a great investment banker, and have no doubts had the Pratt Family been at Rottingwood, he'd have gone there. As for head of footy at PP, jury is out. Sh1te, I've done it again... I've taken aim at another Bambi!

So, who knows, maybe BB is holding the can / taking the heat for a measure of incompetence right through the place. But the buck stops somewhere.

Time will tell, and many aboard the good ship CFC should notice that there's not only a senior coach gang plank being put in place. If this rebuild doesn't work (looking like it) then many should be 'walking the plank.'

So Bolton is no good because of his cliches, SOS is no good because he recruits injured discards and won't sell the farm for the likes of Shiel, Barker is deadwood, Mathieson profits from people's misery, assistant coaches are too comfy, and Judd is money grubby. Then you say " the buck stops somewhere", but thereafter many should be walking the plank, so there's a bucks and a few somewheres ?

I think I understand.

We started a ground up rebuild from rock bottom - couldn't have been much lower. This would have to be the absolute worst place to have to start such a fundamental rebuild from, as there was little foundation to build on - we had to reconstruct the even the foundations. The original sin was that the club was allowed to sink that low in the first place. Unfortunately we have a long way to go yet and frustrations will continue to get worse - much worse possibly. BB is under the pump as far as many supporters go - I don't know how deep this runs within the club itself or how long the powers that be are willing to suffer our winless state of affairs. However, if this rebuild is abandoned or fails then not only BB will be in danger but also the architects of the rebuild, including all those that hired BB to be a part of it.

Bolton....jury out but the prosecution case getting stronger.
SOS...Jury out still and you have to factor in development(which he has no control of) before you can judge his finished products.....the GWS component of his recruiting probably under more scrutiny than his overall recruiting at this stage.
Barker...guilty as charged, tactically we are not real flash and not providing the support Bolton IMHO needs hence Walls part time involvement.......
Mathieson.....yep does profit from others misery and we should dump him and his poker machines....he is a neanderthal and been a constant during our dark years....
Judd....does like his coin and is business orientated but that is his business and I'm more interested in what he contributes to the club than his cash management account.
           What was he doing mentoring Zac Merrett in 2016...that probably wouldnt qualify you for head of my football dept, we paid and looked after him well via the Pratts
           and I value loyalty to the cause.

Assistant coaches.....I'd review their positions every year as due course of business anyway.......those in charge of pre planning, scouting the opposition would be scouting their local Centrelink and I would make those roles a priority to fill with the best available as its been a weak area for years...

What most non Carlton people don't understand, or conveniently overlook, is that we virtually rebuilt the whole Club from the ground up. It started with Trigg came in and identified the embarrassingly old way the Club was set up and run.
Reckon Bolts was the right candidate to get us through the rebuild stage, as he's a good communicator with the players and was exactly what we needed following the out of date methods of Mick.
Whether he's the guy to take us that next step is up for debate. So far, looks like his match day tactics are a massive area of weakness. Could ve done with a senior assistant like Caracella this year.
Happy with the job SOS has done. My only complaint with him is we used to always find some great diamonds in the rough from our Rookie List like Jamo, Tuohy, Thornton etc. That has pretty much stopped under SOS. Also not factoring the plethora of 'steak knives' players like Sumner, Kerridge, Smedts etc who've come and gone from the club (the media is obsessed with them every time they try to debate our recruiting under SOS), but was Kennedy worth a Pick 16 and O Brien worth a Top 10er ?

For people wondering where the improvement will come from, lets look at our B+F from last year.

1st - Patrick Cripps (166 votes) - Still rock solid, probably even improved!

2nd - Kade Simpson (108 votes) - Struggling a bit

3rd - Ed Curnow, Charlie Curnow (98 votes) - Ed would be down on his efforts last year, Charlie definitely down

5th - Dale Thomas (71 votes) - Maybe not as good as last year, but not terrible this year.

6th - Liam Jones (48 votes) - Possibly lifted his game this year. Was a bit up and down last year.

7th - Zac Fisher (47 votes) - Tracking about the same as last year

8th - Sam Rowe (43 votes) - GONE

9th - Matthew Wright (39 votes) - GONE

10th - Marc Murphy (39 votes) - Injured for a lot of last year, but down on form this season

What does it mean?
Plenty of old heads in that bunch. 2 are gone. Murphy, Simpson, IMO Ed and down on last years effort and some might argue Daisy as well. That is 5 or 6 of last years top 10, being the OLD GUARD.

From the others...
Jones (although 28) has probably improved.
Fisher coming back from injury is probably about the same
Cripps has probably gone to a category ABOVE elite.
Charlie has been struggling.

So 3 from the 4 younger group have been solid or better....with Charlie still lacking.

Who have been our best players this year?
Cripps
Walsh (obviously not around last year)
Weitering
SPS
McKay

....insert kids name here.

Conclusion....
Results show little improvement on the win/loss sheet. However, looking at individuals, its pretty clear that the younger brigade are starting to pull their weight now and the older brigade are struggling to match previous efforts.

Basically, we are in a transition stage. You need to look at the individuals to see what our results mean, not look at the results in isolation.

End result...
Back off Bolts, its all going to plan...

So Bolton is no good because of his cliches, SOS is no good because he recruits injured discards and won't sell the farm for the likes of Shiel, Barker is deadwood, Mathieson profits from people's misery, assistant coaches are too comfy, and Judd is money grubby. Then you say " the buck stops somewhere", but thereafter many should be walking the plank, so there's a bucks and a few somewheres ?

I think I understand.

I don't think you do, your conclusions are way too simplistic, look a little deeper and try some more objective, critical thinking. But if blind faith and simplicity work for you, knock yourself out.

For people wondering where the improvement will come from, lets look at our B+F from last year.

1st - Patrick Cripps (166 votes) - Still rock solid, probably even improved!

2nd - Kade Simpson (108 votes) - Struggling a bit

3rd - Ed Curnow, Charlie Curnow (98 votes) - Ed would be down on his efforts last year, Charlie definitely down

5th - Dale Thomas (71 votes) - Maybe not as good as last year, but not terrible this year.

6th - Liam Jones (48 votes) - Possibly lifted his game this year. Was a bit up and down last year.

7th - Zac Fisher (47 votes) - Tracking about the same as last year

8th - Sam Rowe (43 votes) - GONE

9th - Matthew Wright (39 votes) - GONE

10th - Marc Murphy (39 votes) - Injured for a lot of last year, but down on form this season

What does it mean?
Plenty of old heads in that bunch. 2 are gone. Murphy, Simpson, IMO Ed and down on last years effort and some might argue Daisy as well. That is 5 or 6 of last years top 10, being the OLD GUARD.

From the others...
Jones (although 28) has probably improved.
Fisher coming back from injury is probably about the same
Cripps has probably gone to a category ABOVE elite.
Charlie has been struggling.

So 3 from the 4 younger group have been solid or better....with Charlie still lacking.

Who have been our best players this year?
Cripps
Walsh (obviously not around last year)
Weitering
SPS
McKay

....insert kids name here.

Conclusion....
Results show little improvement on the win/loss sheet. However, looking at individuals, its pretty clear that the younger brigade are starting to pull their weight now and the older brigade are struggling to match previous efforts.

Basically, we are in a transition stage. You need to look at the individuals to see what our results mean, not look at the results in isolation.

End result...
Back off Bolts, its all going to plan...

Yep.  Hence why we wont become a force until 2021.

I don't think you do, your conclusions are way too simplistic, look a little deeper and try some more objective, critical thinking. But if blind faith and simplicity work for you, knock yourself out.

Funny.

For people wondering where the improvement will come from, lets look at our B+F from last year.

1st - Patrick Cripps (166 votes) - Still rock solid, probably even improved!

2nd - Kade Simpson (108 votes) - Struggling a bit

3rd - Ed Curnow, Charlie Curnow (98 votes) - Ed would be down on his efforts last year, Charlie definitely down

5th - Dale Thomas (71 votes) - Maybe not as good as last year, but not terrible this year.

6th - Liam Jones (48 votes) - Possibly lifted his game this year. Was a bit up and down last year.

7th - Zac Fisher (47 votes) - Tracking about the same as last year

8th - Sam Rowe (43 votes) - GONE

9th - Matthew Wright (39 votes) - GONE

10th - Marc Murphy (39 votes) - Injured for a lot of last year, but down on form this season

What does it mean?
Plenty of old heads in that bunch. 2 are gone. Murphy, Simpson, IMO Ed and down on last years effort and some might argue Daisy as well. That is 5 or 6 of last years top 10, being the OLD GUARD.

From the others...
Jones (although 28) has probably improved.
Fisher coming back from injury is probably about the same
Cripps has probably gone to a category ABOVE elite.
Charlie has been struggling.

So 3 from the 4 younger group have been solid or better....with Charlie still lacking.

Who have been our best players this year?
Cripps
Walsh (obviously not around last year)
Weitering
SPS
McKay

....insert kids name here.

Conclusion....
Results show little improvement on the win/loss sheet. However, looking at individuals, its pretty clear that the younger brigade are starting to pull their weight now and the older brigade are struggling to match previous efforts.

Basically, we are in a transition stage. You need to look at the individuals to see what our results mean, not look at the results in isolation.

End result...
Back off Bolts, its all going to plan...

So abject failure is the plan.  ???

Funny.

Glad I amuse you. I think you're a cheeky little possum too...  ;D

So abject failure is the plan.  ???

Push the senior players to the periphery and let the kids start to take over. Its working.

All we need now is for our kids to grow out of being kids....and with that comes the rise to the top.


....if, of course, you don't have a hissy fit and sack the coach first.

Push the senior players to the periphery and let the kids start to take over. Its working.

All we need now is for our kids to grow out of being kids....and with that comes the rise to the top.


....if, of course, you don't have a hissy fit and sack the coach first.

I don't think anyone is thinking hissy fit. The reality is that all the odds are stacked against Bolton though.

I don't think anyone is thinking hissy fit. The reality is that all the odds are stacked against Bolton though.

Are they though? All stacked against him??

Yes, he has been copping some heat of late, most of which i'm failing to see why. 10 goal loss, sure. More scoring shots and lose, not the time to be going after him.

Anywho...
Just because some people are coming for him, does that make them right? The vocal minority is a big worry.

Ask the US about voting in Trump.
Ask the UK about voting for Brexit.

Vocal minorities can do dangerous things, and in many cases its best we ignore them and keep on our merry way.

Lot of vocal minorities in this country as well.

I don't think anyone is thinking hissy fit. The reality is that all the odds are stacked against Bolton though.

No hissy fits?  You haven’t been paying attention to the efforts of other posters  :)

I’m not sure that the odds are stacked against Bolton.  The club has embarked on a process that we have never attempted before and the board must have been fully aware that it was a long term process.  Bolton must have this season and next, at a minimum, to demonstrate that his way will get us our next flag.

The club selected a rookie coach for the long term...in effect to grow and develop with the young players.
The experience is no doubt teaching Bolton some valuable lessons and as a result of that you would expect that his coaching will improve.

At the same time folks are quite entitled to look at the results and question the merits of both the coaching and development.
Maybe things are on the improve, but the results don't yet indicate that the course on which we've embarked will be successful in the long term.
The real goal is a sustained period of success.

We can't keep moving the goal posts....and keep saying "well maybe another year."
That would be acceptable if the number of wins and ladder position were improving each year....but they're heading in the other direction.

Individual player improvement is fine but unless it's across board and the individuals are also combining as a team it's pretty meaningless.

Results can turn quickly....no doubt.
But they can also stagnate, and the years in the wilderness can be long.

We need more than "little signs" just at the moment.
We need a period of a couple of games that indicate we've turned the corner, the players are developing and this bloke Bolton knows a thing or two about coaching.
Hopefully that starts this weekend.

The odds may not be stacked against Bolton but....
It's a fluctuating market and like it or not, like any market, it's governed by results

The club selected a rookie coach for the long term...in effect to grow and develop with the young players.
The experience is no doubt teaching Bolton some valuable lessons and as a result of that you would expect that his coaching will improve.

At the same time folks are quite entitled to look at the results and question the merits of both the coaching and development.
Maybe things are on the improve, but the results don't yet indicate that the course on which we've embarked will be successful in the long term.
The real goal is a sustained period of success.

We can't keep moving the goal posts....and keep saying "well maybe another year."
That would be acceptable if the number of wins and ladder position were improving each year....but they're heading in the other direction.

Individual player improvement is fine but unless it's across board and the individuals are also combining as a team it's pretty meaningless.

Results can turn quickly....no doubt.
But they can also stagnate, and the years in the wilderness can be long.

We need more than "little signs" just at the moment.
We need a period of a couple of games that indicate we've turned the corner, the players are developing and this bloke Bolton knows a thing or two about coaching.
Hopefully that starts this weekend.

The odds may not be stacked against Bolton but....
It's a fluctuating market and like it or not, like any market, it's governed by results

I don't think the goal posts have moved lods. People just didn't know where they were and took an ill-informed guess.
From blokes like flyboy who thought we were basically finals bound last year, to blokes now who think we are so far off that we need to sack the coach.

The club always said, 3 years of hitting the draft hard, then we'll have the core group to start climbing up the ladder to ultimate glory.

Now we start the climb. It'll take a little bit to get our feet, but once we get our eye in, improvement will be exponential.

The club selected a rookie coach for the long term...in effect to grow and develop with the young players.
The experience is no doubt teaching Bolton some valuable lessons and as a result of that you would expect that his coaching will improve.

At the same time folks are quite entitled to look at the results and question the merits of both the coaching and development.
Maybe things are on the improve, but the results don't yet indicate that the course on which we've embarked will be successful in the long term.
The real goal is a sustained period of success.

We can't keep moving the goal posts....and keep saying "well maybe another year."
That would be acceptable if the number of wins and ladder position were improving each year....but they're heading in the other direction.

Individual player improvement is fine but unless it's across board and the individuals are also combining as a team it's pretty meaningless.

Results can turn quickly....no doubt.
But they can also stagnate, and the years in the wilderness can be long.

We need more than "little signs" just at the moment.
We need a period of a couple of games that indicate we've turned the corner, the players are developing and this bloke Bolton knows a thing or two about coaching.
Hopefully that starts this weekend.

The odds may not be stacked against Bolton but....
It's a fluctuating market and like it or not, like any market, it's governed by results

Actually lods, we have to maintain the status quo.

This is a bit like driving around Australia.  You can head east, or you can head west before it turns north.  Both will end up at the exact same destination eventually unless you keep changing direction.

That's the only way to ensure you never get anywhere.

Our club has continuously embarked on a plan only to abandon it before it could bear fruit.

This time we need to be bloody minded and continue our current methodology for the next ten years with minimal deviation.  Half the reason we can't attract a decent player is because the blokes who come to us end up finalizing their careers with us unless they jump ship.

@ Kruddler and Thry

While I accept the sentiments that by staying the course we are attempting something completely different I don't think we can maintain it for too much longer.

Firstly we cant just ignore the last three years and pretend that was all about compiling the list and nothing further.
Bolton's starting point of judgement isn't now.
It's a compilation of all that's gone before, but yes more importantly what he does in the next 12-24 months.

However Bolton as coach is not the major issue for me...
I like him and I have a feeling that with a different set of criteria his results to this point may have been different.

Nope....I'm more concerned with the architects than the builder.

Can we continue on the same path indefinitely.
That would be fine and I'd even accept it if the decision was just ours.
But it's not.
It's a whole club interest that's also affected by external pressures (media, sponsors)and competing interests amongst our more influential supporters.

How the current position is playing out amongst our everyday supporters is not able to be determined.
I'd guess there is still majority support...but I think most folk fear the result of not staying the course rather than being confident it will succeed.

If someone had said to you at the end of round 2 2015....

"We're rebuilding. It will take time. We may drop to the bottom of the ladder at the end of this year but that will mean some strong draft positions." Your response would probably have been.... "Bring it on!"

Had they added …

"Oh, by the way.... we'll also be last at the end of 2018 and  it will probably take several years after that before we're back in the finals....if at all, no guarantees!...and a couple of us won't be here to see it through"
... would you still have bought what they were selling.

Nicely summized, Principal LODS.

In the words of Bertrand Russell, “In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted.”

Not questioning the present administration, and just trusting them with blind faith year after year, has an air of lemmings off a cliff about it.

A lot of questioning and even second guessing starts when the club does not communicate clearly exactly what is going on when there are continued and consistent poor results. There was good communication early on and we knew what was coming and accepted that. And the first two years, although gutting the side (and still many non-hackers taking the field for us) there were sporadic wins and much to be encouraged about in terms of effort. There were few signs of surrender, in any game. Now, we look good when our opposition is not switched on, then fold when real heat is applied.

I, like most, was relieved and wrapped that the club chose a rebuild. And, I repeat, the first two years, although the W & L was ordinary it was not unexpected and there were, just about every week, encouraging signs. Reasonable to expect that would flow into year 3. Nuh.

Year three did not follow, as I believe the club expected, the first two. The club announced an offensive layer (acknowledgment that the biggest problem was being addressed)... which says pretty clearly, we intend to score more/higher. Flop. Bad flop.

Year 4 arrives and thus far seems an extension of year 3 even though we are now fielding a much, much better side. Better side, worse results... mmm...

Wouldn't it be ironic if the very time we 'stick the course' it turns out to be the wrong course, being administered by the wrong people.

My hope is that it all magically clicks into place, starting tomorrow and we win the next 5 games, by handsome margins and in 4 of those games kick more than 100 pts. What was that Supertramp hit from 1974/5? It was from the Crime of the Century album?

@ Kruddler and Thry

While I accept the sentiments that by staying the course we are attempting something completely different I don't think we can maintain it for too much longer.

Firstly we cant just ignore the last three years and pretend that was all about compiling the list and nothing further.
Bolton's starting point of judgement isn't now.
It's a compilation of all that's gone before, but yes more importantly what he does in the next 12-24 months.

However Bolton as coach is not the major issue for me...
I like him and I have a feeling that with a different set of criteria his results to this point may have been different.

Nope....I'm more concerned with the architects than the builder.

Can we continue on the same path indefinitely.
That would be fine and I'd even accept it if the decision was just ours.
But it's not.
It's a whole club interest that's also affected by external pressures (media, sponsors)and competing interests amongst our more influential supporters.

How the current position is playing out amongst our everyday supporters is not able to be determined.
I'd guess there is still majority support...but I think most folk fear the result of not staying the course rather than being confident it will succeed.

If someone had said to you at the end of round 2 2015....

"We're rebuilding. It will take time. We may drop to the bottom of the ladder at the end of this year but that will mean some strong draft positions." Your response would probably have been.... "Bring it on!"

Had they added …

"Oh, by the way.... we'll also be last at the end of 2018 and  it will probably take several years after that before we're back in the finals....if at all, no guarantees!...and a couple of us won't be here to see it through"
... would you still have bought what they were selling.

That's the thing though lods. 

I didn't need them to tell me that it would take more than 3 years for the tide to turn.  If everything was going perfectly we might have been a finals side this season.

It hasn't and so we aren't.

Logic told me it was going to take longer.

Why?  Rewind 3 years.  How was Dustin Martin looking as a footballer?

Answer, talented peanut destined not to achieve anything.

Our youngsters are on schedule more or less.  The reason we are struggling is our senior players.  Docherty out for two seasons running, jreuzer breaking down all the time, Murphy not at his best, ed curnow not making an impact,  and Simpson waning is why we are not winning games.  The kids are doing what kids do.  Cripps and daisy are the only two senior bodies standing up every week.

That's why we're struggling.   In 2 years time we will be a force to contend with irrespective of how our elder players go.

I don't think the goal posts have moved lods. People just didn't know where they were and took an ill-informed guess.
From blokes like flyboy who thought we were basically finals bound last year, to blokes now who think we are so far off that we need to sack the coach.

The club always said, 3 years of hitting the draft hard, then we'll have the core group to start climbing up the ladder to ultimate glory.

Now we start the climb. It'll take a little bit to get our feet, but once we get our eye in, improvement will be exponential.

Yes, I'll put my hand up to being just a tad too optimistic.  With the benefit of hindsight - and a decent reality check - it's plain to see that the hard part is just beginning.

All I hear are excuses. Tigers just beat port over there without the big 4.

Our youngsters are on schedule more or less.  The reason we are struggling is our senior players.  Docherty out for two seasons running, jreuzer breaking down all the time, Murphy not at his best, ed curnow not making an impact,  and Simpson waning is why we are not winning games.  The kids are doing what kids do.  Cripps and daisy are the only two senior bodies standing up every week.

Ed being played out of position. Murphy, sadly, should retire imo. He doesn't look remotely hungry...

Simmo - well who knows - he looks ordinary right now but has bounced before....

Lobbe - needs to play out of his skin tomorrow.

Daisy - soli, wise head but a $350k a year player not $700k or the like.

That's the thing though lods. 

I didn't need them to tell me that it would take more than 3 years for the tide to turn.  If everything was going perfectly we might have been a finals side this season.

It hasn't and so we aren't.

Logic told me it was going to take longer.

Why?  Rewind 3 years.  How was Dustin Martin looking as a footballer?

Answer, talented peanut destined not to achieve anything.

Our youngsters are on schedule more or less.  The reason we are struggling is our senior players.  Docherty out for two seasons running, jreuzer breaking down all the time, Murphy not at his best, ed curnow not making an impact,  and Simpson waning is why we are not winning games.  The kids are doing what kids do.  Cripps and daisy are the only two senior bodies standing up every week.

That's why we're struggling.   In 2 years time we will be a force to contend with irrespective of how our elder players go.

I think we all expected a bit of pain but....

Did anyone think we'd be last 3 years after the start of the rebuild?
With our worst percentage in over a hundred years and an equal worst ever win/ loss record for the season.
And the least number of goals kicked in a season since the competition moved to a 22 game season.


Selling that in 2015 would have been a "hard sell"

I think we all expected a bit of pain but....

Did anyone think we'd be last 3 years after the start of the rebuild?
With our worst percentage in over a hundred years and an equal worst ever win/ loss record for the season.
And the least number of goals kicked in a season since the competition moved to a 22 game season.


Selling that in 2015 would have been a "hard sell"

Probably why we've heard nary a peep out of anyone from CFC these last 3 years - there's not much to say. "We said 3 years, so we'll see y'all in 2019."

Quick question....Did the club put a time frame on it.

Somewhere along the way I remember there was talk about it being a 66 game rebuild.
From memory it was a comment attributed to Stephen Silvagni but.....
I don't think that was ever a timeline.
Can anyone produce a 'direct quote' from any club source saying 3 yrs/66 games.

Quick question....Did the club put a time frame on it.

Somewhere along the way I remember there was talk about it being a 66 game rebuild.
From memory it was a comment attributed to Stephen Silvagni but.....
I don't think that was ever a timeline.
Can anyone produce a 'direct quote' from any club source saying 3 yrs/66 games.

I'm pretty sure that this was discussed in another thread, and somebody produced a quote. Not sure though. The talk in the media was that it was an "internal" limit, not sure if the club ever confirmed. Bolton has mentioned once or twice in his 3 pressers this season that he now has the list he wants, so i guess by inference the rebuild is over.

Quick question....Did the club put a time frame on it.

Somewhere along the way I remember there was talk about it being a 66 game rebuild.
From memory it was a comment attributed to Stephen Silvagni but.....
I don't think that was ever a timeline.
Can anyone produce a 'direct quote' from any club source saying 3 yrs/66 games.

No, the 66 game rebuild was the creation of a footy reporter who used it after interviewing SOS.  The club has always used the term “multiple drafts”.

However, Bolton has now declared that he has the list he wants to develop into a premiership contender so it’s unlikely that we’ll see major list changes at the end of the season - unless SOS and co have missed the mark.

So given that he now has the list to develop we should (barring significant injury) expect to see improvement in both players and team as this season progresses.

So given that he now has the list to develop we should (barring significant injury) expect to see improvement in both players and team as this season progresses.

If we lose to the Suns and sit on the bottom of the ladder as the only side with no wins, it will put great pressure on the entire coaching group and playing group to develop talent quickly. We can’t end this season with as few wins for the year as we did last season. Things need to improve sooner, rather than later. As other sides develop genuine self belief and confidence winning games, it will make it so much more difficult for us to be competitive and win games. The next few weeks will be a real testing period for the entire club.

If we lose to the Suns and sit on the bottom of the ladder as the only side with no wins, it will put great pressure on the entire coaching group and playing group to develop talent quickly. We can’t end this season with as few wins for the year as we did last season. Things need to improve sooner, rather than later. As other sides develop genuine self belief and confidence winning games, it will make it so much more difficult for us to be competitive and win games. The next few weeks will be a real testing period for the entire club.

Yes Mantis, you're on the money!

We need a win to engender self-belief but, once that happens, I expect inconsistent performances with wins when we should lose and losses when we should win.  A frustrating, as well as testing period, but it should set us up - provided Bolton knows what he's doing, and I think he does.

Win, lose or draw vs the Suns doesnt change much IMO.....its more about where we sit mid season and how we go vs teams who we normally struggle against and can we
beat some better quality teams. I'm not going to hang Bolton out to dry if we lose vs the Suns unless its by plenty and I'm not going to get too excited either unless we kick 100 points and have a big win. I'm more interested in seeing improvement vs teams like the Dogs and Hawks in the next few weeks ....wins vs those teams will tell more us more than losing or winning vs the Suns who are not very good but have fluked a few wins early and have a decent home ground advantage with conditions that can be hard for visiting teams.
Given most poorly performed teams now have a win I expect us to join them and beat GC by 5 goals.....but the real test is after that.....

I think we all expected a bit of pain but....

Did anyone think we'd be last 3 years after the start of the rebuild?
With our worst percentage in over a hundred years and an equal worst ever win/ loss record for the season.
And the least number of goals kicked in a season since the competition moved to a 22 game season.


Selling that in 2015 would have been a "hard sell"

Like i said lods.  Unless everything went perfectly, it's not surprising.   The only reason we weren't going to finish last was if the wheels fell off somewhere else.

Our best case scenarios are still to finish in the 12-14 range at the start of the season.  Our worst case scenarios are 15-18.  All it takes for our worst case scenarios is for the cliff to come for a team like Sydney, gold coast, Brisbane, st kilda and we go from worst to best case winning 5 games for the year.

It's really simple to look at and see and some of us called it based on our injury list in January.

Like i said lods.  Unless everything went perfectly, it's not surprising.   The only reason we weren't going to finish last was if the wheels fell off somewhere else.

Our best case scenarios are still to finish in the 12-14 range at the start of the season.  Our worst case scenarios are 15-18.  All it takes for our worst case scenarios is for the cliff to come for a team like Sydney, gold coast, Brisbane, st kilda and we go from worst to best case winning 5 games for the year.

It's really simple to look at and see and some of us called it based on our injury list in January.

I certainly didn't envisage our worst season ever three years into a rebuild.
But what's done is done.

I guess the point I'm making is that how we feel about a 15-18 finish is not that important in isolation.
It's how it's playing out in the wider club supporter/member base and public environment (media sponsors etc).

How impatient are the board.
How impatient are the movers and shakers.

We've had some significant movement with two of the main advocates of the rebuild in Trigg and Mckay having moved on.
They began a process and for whatever reason didn't see it through.

I've mentioned before that the faith in a direction is a leakage process.
Continued losses slowly eats away at the support until a bigger, unfixable hole appears.
Finish 17-18th and the hole is entering the "Evacuation zone"

The bottom line is that few Carlton supporters want to see this process fail and all it really needs is some turnarounds.
Player improvement and development is fine, but unless it's accompanied by results it's not effective in the eyes of supporters and members.
Truth is we don't remember the years of development.
We only remember the outcomes.
Ten years from now the last three years will just be a blur.
All that will matter is what happens next...and that has to be improvement. 

No, the 66 game rebuild was the creation of a footy reporter who used it after interviewing SOS.  The club has always used the term “multiple drafts”.

However, Bolton has now declared that he has the list he wants to develop into a premiership contender so it’s unlikely that we’ll see major list changes at the end of the season - unless SOS and co have missed the mark.

Not entirely true.

The club has certainly used the multiple drafts line most, but its also said 3 years as well. Pretty sure Bolton has referenced it in press conferences on at least 2 occassions. Club has kinda backed up the 3 years (with or without the definitive number) in club emails.

In any event, its clear that the hitting the draft stage is over and the rise up the ladder stage is expected to start kicking into gear.

Not entirely true.

The club has certainly used the multiple drafts line most, but its also said 3 years as well. Pretty sure Bolton has referenced it in press conferences on at least 2 occassions. Club has kinda backed up the 3 years (with or without the definitive number) in club emails.

In any event, its clear that the hitting the draft stage is over and the rise up the ladder stage is expected to start kicking into gear.

Can you point to one of those Kruds
I can't recall the 66/3year ever being used directly by a club official.
It's why I asked for a direct reference.
Multiple drafts could mean any number.

While it's not of great importance the 3 year timeline is often used as gospel

How the current position is playing out amongst our everyday supporters is not able to be determined.
I'd guess there is still majority support...but I think most folk fear the result of not staying the course rather than being confident it will succeed.

If someone had said to you at the end of round 2 2015....

"We're rebuilding. It will take time. We may drop to the bottom of the ladder at the end of this year but that will mean some strong draft positions." Your response would probably have been.... "Bring it on!"

Had they added …

"Oh, by the way.... we'll also be last at the end of 2018 and  it will probably take several years after that before we're back in the finals....if at all, no guarantees!...and a couple of us won't be here to see it through"
... would you still have bought what they were selling.

This goes back to what i was saying earlier. Vocal minority

TBH, f*** them.

I don't need the club to pander to supporters who think we should have won a flag yesterday. I just want the club to get it right.

I understand that the club 'sold' the idea in the way they did. Playing it out warts and all would do nothing for the confidence of players, supporters and sponsors and served very little purpose apart from to reign in expectations for this 'vocal minority'

Not only does it dissuade potential sponsors. But it allows the players to think its ok to be losing as it was 'expected'.

Nope. Screw that. I'm happy the club did what it did.

Can you point to one of those Kruds
I can't recall the 66/3year ever being used directly by a club official.
It's why I asked for a direct reference.
Multiple drafts could mean any number.

Nah, i've searched before for no luck. Not everything is in the written form, and wading through hours worth of press conferences is not something i care to take the time to do.

This goes back to what i was saying earlier. Vocal minority

TBH, f*** them.

I don't need the club to pander to supporters who think we should have won a flag yesterday. I just want the club to get it right.

I understand that the club 'sold' the idea in the way they did. Playing it out warts and all would do nothing for the confidence of players, supporters and sponsors and served very little purpose apart from to reign in expectations for this 'vocal minority'

Not only does it dissuade potential sponsors. But it allows the players to think its ok to be losing as it was 'expected'.

Nope. Screw that. I'm happy the club did what it did.

I'm not happy.
I've thought from the start it was an exercise to buy time without consequence.
There may also have been a hidden agenda there to force out a coach who was never going to have his record damaged by going through a rebuilding process.

We had a side that finished 9th (actually ended up 6th due to the Essendon scandal)
The next year was an injury savaged year that saw us drop down then ladder.

Then two games into the 2015 season they sucked the absolute life out of the playing group by announcing a rebuild....two games!!
Since then we've dived to the bottom.

Would we be in a worse position if we hadn't followed the total rebuild path.
Well we could hardly be, could we.
To say we would be worse off assumes we would have been totally inactive during trades and draft .
We may not have had the currency but we would still have had options.
It may not have been Weitering, Dow and Walsh but there would still have been decent players there with mid first round picks.

Ah, "But the youth...the future you say."
Lets see how that develops before we call it.

But there is little point dwelling on the past.
What all of us want to see is a successful club.
A club winning games on a regular basis
We've been too long in the wilderness.

Nah, i've searched before for no luck. Not everything is in the written form, and wading through hours worth of press conferences is not something i care to take the time to do.

Then failing that we have to assume no official ever put a deadline on the rebuild publicly.

I'm not happy.
I've thought from the start it was an exercise to buy time without consequence.
There may also have been a hidden agenda there to force out a coach who was never going to have his record damaged by going through a rebuilding process.

We had a side that finished 9th (actually ended up 6th due to the Essendon scandal)
The next year was an injury savaged year that saw us drop down then ladder.

Then two games into the 2015 season they sucked the absolute life out of the playing group by announcing a rebuild....two games!!
Since then we've dived to the bottom.

Would we be in a worse position if we hadn't followed the total rebuild path.
Well we could hardly be, could we.
To say we would be worse off assumes we would have been totally inactive during trades and draft .
We may not have had the currency but we would still have had options.
It may not have been Weitering, Dow and Walsh but there would still have been decent players there with mid first round picks.

Ah, "But the youth...the future you say."
Lets see how that develops before we call it.

But there is little point dwelling on the past.
What all of us want to see is a successful club.
A club winning games on a regular basis
We've been too long in the wilderness.

You may remember that my thoughts on Rattens sacking alingned with yours at the time. Probably a bit harsh, but with all the external pressure, it had to happen.
You would be aware that my thoughts on Malthouse seems contrary to public opinion. In the end, with all the external pressure, it had to happen.
Now....we are starting to get some external pressure on Bolton.
Connect the dots.

Basically we cannot undo what was done in the past. I've been very strong on the fact that the problem has NOT been with the coaches, but with the club as a whole. Partly due to the way it implodes when external pressure starts getting applied....by that vocal minority.

I wish the club had balls to back Ratten in.
I with the club had balls to let Malthouse do what he wanted and actually supported him rather than hang him out to dry.
I hope the club does NOT go through this same knee jerk reaction now.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it

So with that in mind, and knowing that the club expected a 3-year draft top up, doing anything other than back Bolton (and a rebuilt club i might add) in, would be absolute madness.

Sacking him now isn't going to happen
And when and if he does go he should have some company.

Anyway I'm off to the footy to hopefully watch him coach a winning game.

Sacking him now isn't going to happen
And when and if he does go he should have some company.

Anyway I'm off to the footy to hopefully watch him coach a winning game.

Enjoy the game Lods - I hope your team wins  :)

You may remember that my thoughts on Rattens sacking alingned with yours at the time. Probably a bit harsh, but with all the external pressure, it had to happen.
You would be aware that my thoughts on Malthouse seems contrary to public opinion. In the end, with all the external pressure, it had to happen.
Now....we are starting to get some external pressure on Bolton.
Connect the dots.

Basically we cannot undo what was done in the past. I've been very strong on the fact that the problem has NOT been with the coaches, but with the club as a whole. Partly due to the way it implodes when external pressure starts getting applied....by that vocal minority.

I wish the club had balls to back Ratten in.
I with the club had balls to let Malthouse do what he wanted and actually supported him rather than hang him out to dry.
I hope the club does NOT go through this same knee jerk reaction now.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it

So with that in mind, and knowing that the club expected a 3-year draft top up, doing anything other than back Bolton (and a rebuilt club i might add) in, would be absolute madness.

But what if we've finally changed our ways only to, ironically, stay the course with the wrong people on the wrong course?

But what if we've finally changed our ways only to, ironically, stay the course with the wrong people on the wrong course?

I'm not saying he has lifetime immunity. But what i'm saying is that now its too soon to change.

Sacking him now isn't going to happen
And when and if he does go he should have some company.

Anyway I'm off to the footy to hopefully watch him coach a winning game.

You might be the lucky omen, Principal LODS.

If by the second half of the year we're producing the same, or worse, then he's gone and as you so rightly state, so should a few others.

fifth season, many haven't got that many, need to show something now to keep the faith

But what if we've finally changed our ways only to, ironically, stay the course with the wrong people on the wrong course?

So long as we aren't leaking talent you stay the course.

If we become too impatient then we'll prematurely cause failure irrespective of whether or not it can succeed.

We did the same with ratten which sparked a mass exodus and a rebuild anyway. 

We'll only do the same if we sack Bolton.

fifth season, many haven't got that many, need to show something now to keep the faith

I think you should count the seasons hes been coaching again.  Last I checked he took over towards the end of 2015. 

Footy Classified tonight  had Chris Judd in the hot seat talking about the clubs woes, Caro and Damian Ferret tried to bait him with Bolton has to go at years end if the present
form line continues but Judd held his ground and played the party line tune that he expects BB to be the coach next year and there after.
Theme was we are all in this together and he knows its a results based business etc etc....his workmates took it easy on him and didnt ask him too many difficult questions but
Caro was the one who probably got the only arrow through the defense when she questioned the development of players like SPS, Harry etc but there want much damage inflicted on C.Judd who plays a very straight media bat...

He actually defended our player development, saying he’s happy with where the kids are, particularly the 4th year players from 2015 draft. Best part was when the development of Harry was brought up, he ripped ‘What, the 2nd best contested marks total ever in the first 3 rounds isn’t good enough for you ?’ LOL!!!

Footy Classified tonight  had Chris Judd in the hot seat talking about the clubs woes, Caro and Damian Ferret tried to bait him with Bolton has to go at years end if the present
form line continues but Judd held his ground and played the party line tune that he expects BB to be the coach next year and there after.
Theme was we are all in this together and he knows its a results based business etc etc....his workmates took it easy on him and didnt ask him too many difficult questions but
Caro was the one who probably got the only arrow through the defense when she questioned the development of players like SPS, Harry etc but there want much damage inflicted on C.Judd who plays a very straight media bat...

Judd is a good person to have in our corner, because he's smart and won't ever get caught out by peanuts asking supposedly "probing" questions. He's also one of the very few CFC people who have a genuine media presence, with his appearances on FC, regular columns in print media etc.

https://www.bay13sports.com.au/latest-sports-news/2019/4/15/the-blues-0-4-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly?fbclid=IwAR3mIfhr5H93ICyOsMn2jCMijgv3ri6Z9IiJ5D4DsT_0cy-NWLjxHbt75l4

What works

defence - Liam Jones, Jacob Weitering and Lachie Plowman can hardly be faulted.  These guys are rock solid and supported by Dale Thomas, Kade Simpson and Caleb Marchbank

running, effort, contest, intensity and pressure:

contested marks - 2nd in the competition

rebound 50s - 2nd in the competition

centre clearances - 4th in the competition

contested possessions - 6th in the competition

clearances - 6th in the competition

tackles - 6th in the competition

1 percenters - 7th in the competition

Judging by the images of a distraught BB being consoled in the rooms by Liddle, and what he said about BB when door stopped today,  I wouldnt have thought so.

You really think Liddle has a say? Once the pokie king has had enough he's gone.

Judd is a good person to have in our corner, because he's smart and won't ever get caught out by peanuts asking supposedly "probing" questions. He's also one of the very few CFC people who have a genuine media presence, with his appearances on FC, regular columns in print media etc.

Nah, Judd handled Caro with aplomb.

You really think Liddle has a say? Once the pokie king has had enough he's gone.

Surely those days are over.

Surely those days are over.

Think we are still about 8 million in debt so not by a long shot.

Judd is a good person to have in our corner, because he's smart and won't ever get caught out by peanuts asking supposedly "probing" questions. He's also one of the very few CFC people who have a genuine media presence, with his appearances on FC, regular columns in print media etc.

Yep absolutely.  The thing is he has credibility of being the games best player (at least for a while), and isn't your typical footballer as he speaks eloquently as well as not getting caught up in sensationalism.

I would love to hear what he would have to say about the Ratten situation back then when he was playing.

Surely those days are over.

I'm not so sure.
Power rests in the hands of just a few influential folks.
It's certainly not with the general membership.
Those people pretty much control who is on the board...and have added structures that makes it difficult for anyone outside 'the circle' to gain a place.

Mathieson knows jack crap about football and should be guided by folks who know more than he does, not just throw his weight around when he has the grumps.

...............

I would love to hear what he would have to say about the Ratten situation back then when he was playing.

I think he said something about this in his book. From memory, he was either equivocal or somewhat less than complimentary. Someone who is familiar with the book would know more. 

The bay13 article by you Flyboy was a very interesting read. It does sell some positive data. How to fix these issues is up to BB, his coaching staff and the playing group. The next 6 to 8 games will show whether we can move in the right direction.

A win somewhere down the line would be a great start. Nothing like confidence and belief to get the ball rolling. I just hope we don’t load up too much pressure and expectations on the return of special K. He shouldn’t be the one to carry the side. It is a team effort and players need to all be accountable.

Mathieson knows jack crap about football and should be guided by folks who know more than he does, not just throw his weight around when he has the grumps.

At a guess I'd say he had a big influence in setting up the current group in charge.

The bay13 article by you Flyboy was a very interesting read. It does sell some positive data. How to fix these issues is up to BB, his coaching staff and the playing group. The next 6 to 8 games will show whether we can move in the right direction.

A win somewhere down the line would be a great start. Nothing like confidence and belief to get the ball rolling. I just hope we don’t load up too much pressure and expectations on the return of special K. He shouldn’t be the one to carry the side. It is a team effort and players need to all be accountable.

That said, Special K back is massive for us. It helps Crippa no end too.

How would the Dees go without Gawn? The Pies without Grundy?

Matt is light years ahead of Philips and Lobbe in outright ability and the ability to affect the outcome of a game....!!

Drop Lobbe, keep Levi as back up and play Charlie on a wing or HFF.

At a guess I'd say he had a big influence in setting up the current group in charge.

It's naive to think otherwise, money well and truly talks!

Whether it's Game of Thrones, local politics or football club administration, the faceless men are the ones to fear!

I'm not so sure.
Power rests in the hands of just a few influential folks.
It's certainly not with the general membership.
Those people pretty much control who is on the board...and have added structures that makes it difficult for anyone outside 'the circle' to gain a place.

Ill hazard a guess and say that one of Liddle's charters is to rid the club of a reliance on stupid old gits with lots of money.

Ill hazard a guess and say that one of Liddle's charters is to rid the club of a reliance on stupid old gits with lots of money.

Probably not... seeing he serves at their pleasure.

Probably not... seeing he serves at their pleasure.

x2

Liddle is more likely to be courting them than disrespecting them, he knows who butters his bread!

A million infant fans isn't worth one billionaire!

The club does want the children to grow up as fans, but that is the long long game, not part of the immediate survival concern! It's why I call bullsh1t when the Dawks pump themselves up as the family club, the only thing Jeff Kennett would worry about in regard to families is if they can serve as a carpet to stop his boots getting dirty!

At a guess I'd say he had a big influence in setting up the current group in charge.

If i were to hazard a guess, he was probably a lot keener on landing a big fish / coach / star player etc - the Old Carlton way. He doesn't strike me as one of those "the ox is slow but the earth is patient" types.

If i were to hazard a guess, he was probably a lot keener on landing a big fish / coach / star player etc - the Old Carlton way. He doesn't strike me as one of those "the ox is slow but the earth is patient" types.

Mathieson is close to Loguidice and Silvagni. His nephew is a director.
He would have been right behind the rebuild strategy and with them in his ear probably maintains the general thrust of the approach.

I'm thinking it's a strong reason why we've continued to hold the line.
While there is that unity of approach at the top we'll probably continue with that...but that doesn't mean they wont think of changing personnel if things get super hard.
Ask Trigg...and maybe Andrew McKay.

Mathieson is close to Loguidice and Silvagni.
He would have been right behind the rebuild strategy and with them in his ear probably maintains the general thrust of the approach.

I'm thinking it's a strong reason why we've continued to hold the line.
While there is that unity of approach at the top we'll probably continue with that...but that doesn't mean they wont think of changing personnel if things get super hard.
Ask Trigg...and maybe Andrew McKay.

It's interesting speculating on the dynamics. My feeling is that Silvagni convinced (maybe browbeat) the Judge about the correct path, then both of them ganged up on Mathieson and forced / convinced him that he needs to be on board as well. Of course, it's pure guesswork on my part.

It's interesting speculating on the dynamics. My feeling is that Silvagni convinced (maybe browbeat) the Judge about the correct path, then both of them ganged up on Mathieson and forced / convinced him that he needs to be on board as well. Of course, it's pure guesswork on my part.

Of course we're only guessing but....
We'd have to know the dynamics of the Silvagni appointment to determine his influence
When was he approached?
What were his demands if he took up the position?

He was appointed in December 2014....but there was already moves towards a rebuild in April of that year.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/teams/carlton/carlton-power-figures-push-for-radical-club-rebuild-after-embarrassing-04-start-to-season/news-story/3029beeaac666f568dd75453b2cf9433

Someone will write a book about what actually went on and some of the agendas in play during the 2014-15 years someday.
It will be a fascinating read.

You'd think those covert meetings in Queensland are the tell, the ones we got fined for when we flew the attendees up their in a private jet! ;)

It's hard to see that as Liddle and the club working around or displacing Mathieson, or am I wrong?

Bolton will get the flick when attention and heat falls on SOS and MLG......those two will stick together and knife the rest until their turn comes.

Given how we've just gone with the anti-gambling thing, you'd think the next step would be to get rid of the pokies....and that means mathieson too.

*fingers crossed*

Of course we're only guessing but....
We'd have to know the dynamics of the Silvagni appointment to determine his influence
When was he approached?
What were his demands if he took up the position?

He was appointed in December 2014....but there was already moves towards a rebuild in April of that year.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/teams/carlton/carlton-power-figures-push-for-radical-club-rebuild-after-embarrassing-04-start-to-season/news-story/3029beeaac666f568dd75453b2cf9433

Someone will write a book about what actually went on and some of the agendas in play during the 2014-15 years someday.
It will be a fascinating read.

Yes, agree.

You'd think those covert meetings in Queensland are the tell, the ones we got fined for when we flew the attendees up their in a private jet! ;)

It's hard to see that as Liddle and the club working around or displacing Mathieson, or am I wrong?

Whilst we have Mathiesons and Pratts pulling the strings, we will be a basket case. How long have they been involved at our club? How many coaches and CEOs have they sacked? Where has it got us? Common denominator?

Whilst we have Mathiesons and Pratts pulling the strings, we will be a basket case. How long have they been involved at our club? How many coaches and CEOs have they sacked? Where has it got us? Common denominator?

The club cannot take their money and ignore their influence, it's a package deal.

All clubs exist this way, Nthmond had a hot line to two or three multimillionaires/billionaires, you will recall the turmoil just before they came good. I believe at one moment one of Nthmond's angels even threatened to withdraw funding/sponsorship, yet they didn't and the club still took their money!

If we can’t move on Bolton, can we at least replace an assistant or two? Barker (stoppages), Cameron Bruce (midfield) and Brent Stanton are my suggestions. Do we really need all three?

Can’t say I’m overly impressed with MacIntosh as ruck coach either.

There must be one or two retirees from the last year or two who wouldn’t mind a coaching gig?

As much as I didn’t want Goddard playing for us I wouldn’t be opposed to him taking a role to help harden us up a bit. And work on our skills.

Could also consider Griffen or Barlow. Maybe Le Cras?

The club cannot take their money and ignore their influence, it's a package deal.

All clubs exist this way, Nthmond had a hot line to two or three multimillionaires/billionaires, you will recall the turmoil just before they came good. I believe at one moment one of Nthmond's angels even threatened to withdraw funding/sponsorship, yet they didn't and the club still took their money!

I never suggested take their money, quite the opposite. Don't take their money and tell em to fark off. I'm sick of them.

Whilst we have Mathiesons and Pratts pulling the strings, we will be a basket case. How long have they been involved at our club? How many coaches and CEOs have they sacked? Where has it got us? Common denominator?

Every Club has similar benefactors....

I never suggested take their money, quite the opposite. Don't take their money and tell em to fark off. I'm sick of them.

The problem with that is..."Who is going to tell them?"
No-one will.
You would lose your job.
As members we have little to no say.
The club is controlled by a few different groups of powerful folk.
They make rules to maintain that power.
They may change places every now and then as one group gains ascendency but the power rests with these few.

I'd love to see some new people on the scene but no-one ever puts their hands up.
And the battle to take control would be an almost impossible challenge.

The problem with that is..."Who is going to tell them?"
No-one will.
You would lose your job.
As members we have little to no say.
The club is controlled by a few different groups of powerful folk.
They make rules to maintain that power.
They may change places every now and then as one group gains ascendency but the power rests with these few.

I'd love to see some new people on the scene but no-one ever puts their hands up.
And the battle to take control would be an almost impossible challenge.

Sounds like the classic oligarchy.

Footy Classified tonight  had Chris Judd in the hot seat talking about the clubs woes, Caro and Damian Ferret tried to bait him with Bolton has to go at years end if the present
form line continues but Judd held his ground and played the party line tune that he expects BB to be the coach next year and there after.
Theme was we are all in this together and he knows its a results based business etc etc....his workmates took it easy on him and didnt ask him too many difficult questions but
Caro was the one who probably got the only arrow through the defense when she questioned the development of players like SPS, Harry etc but there want much damage inflicted on C.Judd who plays a very straight media bat...

Pretty damn good summation there, EB1 old cock. I recorded it and watched it today. Nothing startling. Of course Judd will back BB, he was a part of the committee that appointed him!!

When asked about BB's tenure, Juddy said, "I fully expect ...(then followed with BB for next year and many years after that." I reckon the management team sat down yesterday and came up with the "I fully expect..." in response to BBs job, it's a good, though meaningless, reassurance. And will silence the questioner.

I like the solidarity and consistency of message from BB, Cain, Juddy etc. It's good and important.

Sick and tired of hearing, "We'll just have to work harder..." BULLSH*T. Smarter, FFS, smarter. Will someone please start saying WE HAVE TO BE SMARTER with the aggott in hand. It's painfully obvious that the boys are giving their all, just cocking it up way, way, way, way to often.

The players seem to be working very hard, just making dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb decisions with the ball... then we have a half dozen blokes with shizen foot disposal.

I also watched the game again, in a more 'objective' mindset. Should have won by at least 5 goals. Really encouraged by what I saw, the ability is there and it's palpable. Remove the cock-ups and you remove a good few 12 point turnarounds. A positive was the more sustained effort. Saw things from Setterfield ad Gibbons which gave me confidence in those two... FFS give Gibbons more midfield time and give Murphy more small forward time.

This group needs:

1. Play fckn smarter!!!!!

2. Here's the bleeding obvious... improve disposal by foot >:( >:( >:( >:(

3. A big win. I reckon this group is capable (when smarts and skills improve) of absolutely belting the shizen out of an opposition... they just need more ruthlessness (there were 4 or 5 blokes out there on Sunday who were set in cruise control... a couple of them, senior players). Wallsy might just be the bloke to instill in the coaches what it takes to pass on fair-dinkum, real McCoy, blood-boiling ruthlessness to the players. They need it as does BB.

A big win, not a scrape home, but a win where these boys kick dot will be the tonic to click them over, and they look so close.

BB, turn the hurt into rage. You're fighting for your job, Knackers. Forget this 'not too high, not too low' crap (how beige/moderate). Rip the crap out of the assistants for not having the players working smarter and tear a new one for whoever is responsible to you for disposal skills (especially by foot).

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/amid-concerns-about-his-coaching-style-carltons-brendon-bolton-must-embrace-his-inner-nathan-buckley-writes-tom-morris/news-story/ca370d5d7e7883c47726e677d8b0e76e?fbclid=IwAR0TXNZGc-RTlJoFA4xy8urZNOobd027juMYMNh9xpk_YYWkZvIdGCxHnxs

 Great post naggers.   We Bolton:  don't think,  DO!

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/amid-concerns-about-his-coaching-style-carltons-brendon-bolton-must-embrace-his-inner-nathan-buckley-writes-tom-morris/news-story/ca370d5d7e7883c47726e677d8b0e76e?fbclid=IwAR0TXNZGc-RTlJoFA4xy8urZNOobd027juMYMNh9xpk_YYWkZvIdGCxHnxs

It could be true, but it all sounds like a fishing expedition. So his biggest problems are that he's trying too hard and doing too much ? That's very different to saying he can't coach, there's no game plan etc.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/amid-concerns-about-his-coaching-style-carltons-brendon-bolton-must-embrace-his-inner-nathan-buckley-writes-tom-morris/news-story/ca370d5d7e7883c47726e677d8b0e76e?fbclid=IwAR0TXNZGc-RTlJoFA4xy8urZNOobd027juMYMNh9xpk_YYWkZvIdGCxHnxs

How the f... would the journo know this:

At his worst, Bolton can over-coach, over-deliver seemingly simple messages, and struggles to prioritise key messages in a succinct way that resonates with players and colleagues.

Sounds like he's being lined up for the axe to swing...

This Morris individual has been privy to inside stuff before.   It's either being deliberately leaked  or we have a mole. 

This Morris individual has been privy to inside stuff before.   It's either being deliberately leaked  or we have a mole.

With an obvious agenda Prof!

How the f... would the journo know this:

Sounds like he's being lined up for the axe to swing...

Yep, the jungle drums have started. Ratten /Malthouse MKII. Let's see what the club is made of this time.

Also, I don't think it's uncommon for rookie coaches to over coach.

How the f... would the journo know this:

Sounds like he's being lined up for the axe to swing...

Yep if thats all true and correct then BB is just waiting for the timber to arrive for the gallows to be built.

Yep if thats all true and correct then BB is just waiting for the timber to arrive for the gallows to be built.

Yes EB, given the sad events re Notre Dame today, perhaps the best term is guillotine?  :(

Yet another to have drunk from the poisoned chalice perhaps?

It could be true, but it all sounds like a fishing expedition. So his biggest problems are that he's trying too hard and doing too much ? That's very different to saying he can't coach, there's no game plan etc.

Bullshyte made up by a regular offender.

I'm not averse to sacking  Bolton,  but not during the season.  I don't see how a measured decision can be made while the season is on. Any time after the coach is sacked is dead time,  might as well pack up for the Year. Why front up?

Change is possible. You just need a club with balls and common sense.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/buckley-s-self-discovery-takes-him-within-sight-of-the-holy-grail-20180928-p506po.html

Bullshyte made up by a regular offender.

Well, I'd be curious to know the % of fact to fantasy. Bolton mentioned in his last presser that he wants to avoid over coaching Walsh, so it seems as though on some level he understands the concept.

Whilst we have Mathiesons and Pratts pulling the strings, we will be a basket case. How long have they been involved at our club? How many coaches and CEOs have they sacked? Where has it got us? Common denominator?

Amen brother. Amen. Time to chisel off these barnacles. But how?

We’ve all heard the story of how George Harris became so fed up with an underperforming Carlton in 1964 that he turned to his mate and said he’d had enough. Premiership 3 years later in ‘68.

Is anyone here cashed up enough to replicate this scenario? Can we, as mere members, storm the Bastille (condolences to our French comrades in this difficult time. Rest assured, my dear cheese eating surrender monkeys, that the good lady will be rebuilt quicker than the Carlton Football Club!)?

Isn’t there an American club wholly owned by its members? Green Bay Packers?

Well, I'd be curious to know the % of fact to fantasy. Bolton mentioned in his last presser that he wants to avoid over coaching Walsh, so it seems as though on some level he understands the concept.

Maybe he tried to over coach a few other kids initially and its didnt go down well especially if one kids name was Silvagni?
Take your point on Buckley but his defense lawyer Eddie McGuire was the right man to have in your corner at the right time, not sure BB has that type of heavyweight support.
I'm with Prof that I dont see the point of sacking Bolton mid season and I'm more of a fan of a overall club review rather than just the usual sack the coach routine.

I'm not averse to sacking  Bolton,  but not during the season.  I don't see how a measured decision can be made while the season is on. Any time after the coach is sacked is dead time,  might as well pack up for the Year. Why front up?

I think even among the Bolton doubters most would see a mid-season sacking as a bit pointless.

If he were to be sacked now it would split the club.
I suspect the number who still maintain the faith still retains the majority.
And to abandon it would leave us in a "What the F*** now!" situation
There's no obvious replacement and any new coach would only be there in a caretaker role.
Much more sensible to see it through until the end of the year and then make the call.

It's delicately poised.
We're not playing for draft picks.
So winning is on the agenda.
If we can snag a few wins without any catastrophic losses he can survive.

I think even among the Bolton doubters most would see a mid-season sacking as a bit pointless.

If he were to be sacked now it would split the club.
I suspect the number who still maintain the faith still retains the majority.
And to abandon it would leave us in a "What the F*** now!" situation
There's no obvious replacement and any new coach would only be there in a caretaker role.
Much more sensible to see it through until the end of the year and then make the call.

It's delicately poised.
We're not playing for draft picks.
So winning is on the agenda.
If we can snag a few wins without any catastrophic losses he can survive.

We cant afford to sack Bolton after our strategy of the last 4 years.


We would look absolutely rudderless,  reactive and like we have gone through a process only to get it so badly wrong it could only have been faked.

I'd be calling a review of everything at end of season and doing nothing else aside from signaling the beginning of it now.

4 more losses and he is cooked.
And so he should be.

He has displayed nothing at this stage that suggests he can do the job.
Yes he’s a teacher blah blah
There is no point teaching someone stuff when they should be focusing on other things although that is probably what our education system has done for a hundred years

He is either the right man for the job or he’s not.
The best thing for young players is success and these guys are starting to look mentally shot after all these losses

For those that say wait, what if he leaves and we win 5 of the next 10 games? Is it worth it then?

Will that help the kids more than continuing to lose?

We cant afford to sack Bolton after our strategy of the last 4 years.


We would look absolutely rudderless,  reactive and like we have gone through a process only to get it so badly wrong it could only have been faked.

I'd be calling a review of everything at end of season and doing nothing else aside from signaling the beginning of it now.

We already look absolutely rudderless....

People have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, and so look for public, visible signs that the club is taking action. Sacking the coach is one such visible sign, because then the club looks like it's doing something ? Turn it up.

We've been down this road numerous times. As Elwood says, do a proper review / audit like the Pies and Tigers, use the same mob they used, and I'll bet they find that the problem isn't the senior coach. But no, we're Carlton, so behaving professionally and wearing some heat simply isn't possible.

Quite apart from that, what decent prospective coach will actually want the job ? They'll have no time to settle in, because the board and dumb fans are tired of waiting, and want success right now. They'll have two club legends breathing down their necks, with one of those legends having two sons on the list, possibly a third by the time the new coach settles in etc.

Crazy.

People have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, and so look for public, visible signs that the club is taking action. Sacking the coach is one such visible sign, because then the club looks like it's doing something ? Turn it up.

We've been down this road numerous times. As Elwood says, do a proper review / audit like the Pies and Tigers, use the same mob they used, and I'll bet they find that the problem isn't the senior coach. But no, we're Carlton, so behaving professionally and wearing some heat simply isn't possible.

What makes you so sure it’s not the senior coach?
What has he done so well?

Quite apart from that, what decent prospective coach will actually want the job ?

Ratten would take the job.

Ratten would take the job.

No chance in hell.

What makes you so sure it’s not the senior coach?
What has he done so well?

Look at the Pies and Tigers, and look at our last 20 years, and then get back to me.

No chance in hell.

Do you know him?

Do you know him?

Nope, but you're very confident that he would take the job, so I guess you do.

Look at the Pies and Tigers, and look at our last 20 years, and then get back to me.

No similarity at all with pies and tigers.
They were winning games, we don’t look like it.
Look at our results and look at the lions.
Changed coaches and change of direction.

You need more evidence than that

No similarity at all with pies and tigers.
They were winning games, we don’t look like it.
Look at our results and look at the lions.
Changed coaches and change of direction.

You need more evidence than that

The staring point is not relevant. Both Tigers and Pies were either stagnating or going backwards under Dimma and Buckley. Hence their respective reviews, and the conclusion that the coaches had to stay, but needed to modify their methods, or get additional and more appropriate support.

The Lions have won a handful of games more than us, and just got smashed by Essendon. Hardly a persuasive case.

In fact, since 2016, the Lions have won 16 games, and we've won 15.

In fact, since 2016, the Lions have won 16 games, and we've won 15.

A few on here have touted the lack of a Hodge type, ACoS provided glimpses of what that sort of aggression can bring to he team, it's not about who is leader or role model but an attitude.

To many it's obvious what we lack, yet we seem disinterested in that type of player.

In fact, since 2016, the Lions have won 16 games, and we've won 15.

Yet now make us look like amateurs

We can go on like this all day.

Simple answer is, BB has done nothing at all to show he can coach.
Some like him because he is a teacher and has a softer side than most coaches.

I don't believe that will cut it, he needs a lot of ability and he isn't showing any of it.

Coaches need to be tough and ruthless, not in a cruel way, but non negotiable's on the basics cannot be brushed over.
We saw on Sunday that Bolton does not have that stuff sorted after 3 years.

People have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, and so look for public, visible signs that the club is taking action. Sacking the coach is one such visible sign, because then the club looks like it's doing something ? Turn it up.

We've been down this road numerous times. As Elwood says, do a proper review / audit like the Pies and Tigers, use the same mob they used, and I'll bet they find that the problem isn't the senior coach. But no, we're Carlton, so behaving professionally and wearing some heat simply isn't possible.

I think that Liddle’s comments provide the best summary.  He basically said that blaming Bolton was wrong as the situation the club is in is the responsibility of everyone involved. 

If Bolton was to be sacked (and I doubt that will happen unless we don’t climb the ladder in 2020), the players, the board, administration, assistant coaches, list managers, fitness staff and the bootstudder must be sacked too.

Yet now make us look like amateurs

We can go on like this all day.

Simple answer is, BB has done nothing at all to show he can coach.
Some like him because he is a teacher and has a softer side than most coaches.

I don't believe that will cut it, he needs a lot of ability and he isn't showing any of it.

Coaches need to be tough and ruthless, not in a cruel way, but non negotiable s on the basics cannot be brushed over.
We saw on Sunday that Bolton does not have that stuff sorted after 3 years.

And yet, the media was glowing in its praise of Bolton in 2016.

If you watch the pressers and other media pieces, Fagan looks softer than Bolton to me.

A few on here have touted the lack of a Hodge type, ACoS provided glimpses of what that sort of aggression can bring to he team, it's not about who is leader or role model but an attitude.

To many it's obvious what we lack, yet we seem disinterested in that type of player.

No doubt such a player would be a valuable addition, but because we're lacking in this department we should sack Bolton ?

No doubt such a player would be a valuable addition, but because we're lacking in this department we should sack Bolton ?

No not at all, but I think it's clearly a reason for the lack of success in close games.

It's like we try to win the war without advancing, we've no offensive troups! Which is fine, starve them out or bore them to death, but we should be happy with ugly wins and ignore the critics! We can't have it both ways!

No doubt such a player would be a valuable addition, but because we're lacking in this department we should sack Bolton ?

When you've won 3 out of 36 4th year into a rebuild, yes, I probably would as would every other club. Keeping going with the same thing likely gives you the same results. Let's face it, those results are nothing short of diabolical. The very reason we swapped our first picks with Adelaide is they thought there'd be significant improvement up the ladder, which is what they said. There is none.

When you've won 3 out of 36 4th year into a rebuild, yes, I probably would as would every other club. Keeping going with the same thing likely gives you the same results. Let's face it, those results are nothing short of diabolical. The very reason we swapped our first picks with Adelaide is they thought there'd be significant improvement up the ladder, which is what they said. There is none.

No coach could have done much better when you are turning over 1/3 of the list and bringing in kids for 3 seasons straight.

No coach could have done much better when you are turning over 1/3 of the list and bringing in kids for 3 seasons straight.

People don't care about that certain fact, they just want wins.

My worry is the white-ants, this is the opportunistic moment for them to enter the structure and take over all that has been built! I hope the head of the household is being very vigilant! If I were LoGuidice, I'd use that frame of reference to publicly stigmatise anyone who undermines BB by suggesting he is replaced or suggesting a replacement. You can bet there are elements in the AFL media trying to stir the pot publicly and behind the scenes as we type!

The timing is almost perfect for a show some loyalty from those who must be obeyed! You know what Brittain said and what we didn't do, "Stick Fat!" The off-field equivalent of a Hodge on-field!

We've been paying for that historical lack of character for almost two decades! It's clearly been as big of a deficiency as anything that happens on match day!

I think that Liddle’s comments provide the best summary.  He basically said that blaming Bolton was wrong as the situation the club is in is the responsibility of everyone involved. 

If Bolton was to be sacked (and I doubt that will happen unless we don’t climb the ladder in 2020), the players, the board, administration, assistant coaches, list managers, fitness staff and the bootstudder must be sacked too.

Ok, great post right there

People don't care about that certain fact, they just want wins.

What fact?

Paul's "opinion" that no other coach could have done better?

I know we like to stretch the truth a bit here, but FACT?

No coach could have done much better when you are turning over 1/3 of the list and bringing in kids for 3 seasons straight.

Absolute crap. That's just an excuse to reinforce your argument. Our side has always been better than that. Even if a side is really bad they do better than 3 from 36.

All sides that rebuild have big list changes. Sides like Richmond under Hardwick, Melbourne under Roos/Goodwin, were finals or close to it after 4 years. Dogs under McCartney, no good, under Beverige, premiers. A good coach gets the most out of their players. people said the same thing when Pagan coached us then within 2 years they played finals. Port played finals the year after they were hopeless under Primus. Swans were so bad they lost 22 games straight in the early 90s. Come Barassi, they went close to finals within two years then under Eade Grand Finalists the next year. So don't give me the crap that that no one would've done any better. Good coaches do make improvements out of any player. Same in any sport, which I can testify to first hand. No decent coach goes 3 from 36.

Absolute crap. That's just an excuse to reinforce your argument. Our side has always been better than that. Even if a side is really bad they do better than 3 from 36.

All sides that rebuild have big list changes. Sides like Richmond under Hardwick, Melbourne under Roos/Goodwin, were finals or close to it after 4 years. Dogs under McCartney, no good, under Beverige, premiers. A good coach gets the most out of their players. people said the same thing when Pagan coached us then within 2 years they played finals. Port played finals the year after they were hopeless under Primus. Swans were so bad they lost 22 games straight in the early 90s. Come Barassi, they went close to finals within two years then under Eade Grand Finalists the next year. So don't give me the crap that that no one would've done any better. Good coaches do make improvements out of any player. Same in any sport, which I can testify to first hand. No decent coach goes 3 from 36.

None of them, that is none of them, did that by turning over 30% of their senior list each pre-season, that's the ignored fact!

There is zero historical predicents for what we have done, we cannot even use newbies like GWS or GC as an example because they had advantages in academies and lots of AFL help we didn't get!

The strategy that was put in place with Bolton, SOS et al was for long term success. This was made very clear at the beginning. What was hidden from view (for obvious reasons) was that by extension, this meant short term pain. The strategy may succeed brilliantly, or it may be an epic fail. We simply don't know. We need to see it through. Stage 1, which is the 3 year rebuild, is now done. Stage 2 has to be allowed to play out first.

None of them, that is none of them, did that by turning over 30% of their senior list each pre-season, that's the ignored fact!

There is zero historical predicents for what we have done, we cannot even use newbies like GWS or GC as an example because they had advantages in academies and lots of AFL help we didn't get!

Correct, we only have four number 1 picks, plus a pick 2, 2 x pick 3 and a pick 5, 2 x pick 10's and a pick 12.
Plus a guy called Cripps.

The strategy that was put in place with Bolton, SOS et al was for long term success. This was made very clear at the beginning. What was hidden from view (for obvious reasons) was that by extension, this meant short term pain. The strategy may succeed brilliantly, or it may be an epic fail. We simply don't know. We need to see it through. Stage 1, which is the 3 year rebuild, is now done. Stage 2 has to be allowed to play out first.

Agreed.

We can post our various beliefs or doubts, but they do not make a good argument for changing direction! ;)

Correct, we only have four number 1 picks, plus a pick 2, 2 x pick 3 and a pick 5, 2 x pick 10's and a pick 12.
Plus a guy called Cripps.

So you think our young top end talent is the problem?

Those other teams Laj refers to as precedents, all retained their core group of very senior and very experienced players, we have kept three or four! GWS actively recruits similar players because they knew they needed them in the mix to accelerate the progress of others, only recently have we been able to trade in McGovern and he's really not that experienced either yet he seems so on our list! Further to do that we had to let an experienced A-Grade AFL player go!

Absolute crap. That's just an excuse to reinforce your argument. Our side has always been better than that. Even if a side is really bad they do better than 3 from 36.

All sides that rebuild have big list changes. Sides like Richmond under Hardwick, Melbourne under Roos/Goodwin, were finals or close to it after 4 years. Dogs under McCartney, no good, under Beverige, premiers. A good coach gets the most out of their players. people said the same thing when Pagan coached us then within 2 years they played finals. Port played finals the year after they were hopeless under Primus. Swans were so bad they lost 22 games straight in the early 90s. Come Barassi, they went close to finals within two years then under Eade Grand Finalists the next year. So don't give me the crap that that no one would've done any better. Good coaches do make improvements out of any player. Same in any sport, which I can testify to first hand. No decent coach goes 3 from 36.

No Jim. It's not crap. Hardwick wasn't sacked, and neither was Buckely, even though many lunk heads thought they should be.

Agreed.

We can post our various beliefs or doubts, but they do not make a good argument for changing direction! ;)

So you think our young top end talent is the problem?

No, I think we have had plenty of draft picks.
We have not developed them well because they play a confused game plan.

There is one person responsible, and he should be held accountable.

If we wait another two years we will waste a whole generation of players and Cripps, Weitering and Walsh will move on looking for a decent coach at a decent club

The list changes are not unprecedented.

Actually Malthouse chopped a heap of players in his short time with us and it wasn't allowed to be used as an excuse.

The strategy that was put in place with Bolton, SOS et al was for long term success. This was made very clear at the beginning. What was hidden from view (for obvious reasons) was that by extension, this meant short term pain. The strategy may succeed brilliantly, or it may be an epic fail. We simply don't know. We need to see it through. Stage 1, which is the 3 year rebuild, is now done. Stage 2 has to be allowed to play out first.

I would have thought we should get the best coach available.
If they review Bolton's position and think he is not up to it, are you suggesting we should keep him, simply because we are in a rebuild?

I would have thought we should get the best coach available.
If they review Bolton's position and think he is not up to it, are you suggesting we should keep him, simply because we are in a rebuild?

Sacking the coach now or this season is the soft option, weak as piss.

If they do have have a proper review, they will find Bolton is fine. Nothing surer.

Sacking the coach now or this season is the soft option, weak as piss.

If they do have have a proper review, they will find Bolton is fine. Nothing surer.

Paul, that is a massive call.
How would you know that?
It is simply your opinion.

He is either the best person for the job or he isn't.

I would have thought we should get the best coach available.
If they review Bolton's position and think he is not up to it, are you suggesting we should keep him, simply because we are in a rebuild?

Ol' mate Dick Pratt used to say "if they are available, they aren't the best".

We should closely scrutinise what future BB may have with us but after season's end. Do we really want to completely write off another year by installing a caretaker again?

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/amid-concerns-about-his-coaching-style-carltons-brendon-bolton-must-embrace-his-inner-nathan-buckley-writes-tom-morris/news-story/ca370d5d7e7883c47726e677d8b0e76e?fbclid=IwAR0TXNZGc-RTlJoFA4xy8urZNOobd027juMYMNh9xpk_YYWkZvIdGCxHnxs

I actually think it is a very good article.

I made the point some time ago that I thought BB was a control freak which is characterized by micromanagement and over explaining/teaching (comes from fear rather than trust). I actually think it's pretty damn obvious. But we cut him (BB) slack because he's lovable, which I've attempted to also point out, much to the disdain of some. If BB was a cantankerous character like, say MM, then many who are defending BB would be calling for his head.

Our blokes play confused and when you do that you see dumb, dumb decisions. Too many thoughts and instructions whizzing through the cranium.

A good example is John Worsfold, whose style is the antithesis of BB. He puts it on the players so everything on field is player driven. The BB style -- over coaching -- creates dependence on the senior coach which is good for the senior coach's ego but bad for the development of said player/team.

Rottingwood's success doesn't come on the back of 'sticking fat' with the senior coach... nuh, it comes on the back of a thorough and objective analysis and appraisal of Buckley's style... another intense control freak. Ditto Dimma. The senior coach's changed their styles... showed more trust in those around them and apportioned more responsibility to those around them.

We should closely scrutinise what future BB may have with us but after season's end. Do we really want to completely write off another year by installing a caretaker again?

These are my thoughts too.

I saw a collective group slump to the ground at the end of the Gold Coast match.
They were hurting.
If they weren't buying what the coach was selling and wanted him gone the result wouldn't have mattered
I haven't seen  signs that Bolton has lost this group.
I'm not even sure he has lost majority support among  members and supporters.

Sacking Bolton mid-season is futile.
The caretaker route hasn't worked for us in the recent past.
I know in previous games winning the matches after a coach replacement was not a priority, but the worst thing would be to install a caretaker who had a bit of success at the end of the year as things started to come together...and than appointing that person on a permanent basis.
We've passed the playing players for development stage.
We're not playing for Pick 1....
winning games is now a priority

Let Bolton see the season out and give him the chance to get some evidence to support his case.
Then if changes are to be made, let them be made at the end of the year when options for replacements open up.

The list changes are not unprecedented.

Actually Malthouse chopped a heap of players in his short time with us and it wasn't allowed to be used as an excuse.

Firstly, he didn't do it three seasons running.

Secondly, he didn't do it as a newbie coach with a newbie assistant coaching department, newbie MC and a newbie administration. He brought in some older experienced heads, on-field(like Thomas and Everitt) and off-field(His various assistants), then cut a bunch of blokes(other than Laidler) who were not getting a game anyway, yet he did no better than BB!

In MMs 2nd season he cut/retired/traded seven including, Waite, Robinson, Scotland and Garlett to bring in four which were Dick, Jaksch, Whiley and Jones, if not for Jones that's almost a 100% bust!

It's hard if not impossible to claim the list MM built had a better long term finals outlook than the current list, it might even be laughable to make that claim. Fans could almost claim some of those changes have contributed to our short term pain, they were certainly not positives!

It's was nothing like what we have done recently!

It's pretty clear the recruiting during the Ratten era is how we got in this mess. Malthouse was coaching in finals and grand finals while we were picking up dud after dud while thinking we were contenders.

It's pretty clear the recruiting during the Ratten era is how we got in this mess. Malthouse was coaching in finals and grand finals while we were picking up dud after dud while thinking we were contenders.

You can't pick and chose who to blame if you are using recruitment as a measure of coaching, it's all or none.

MM's era was as bad if not worse than any others, and he doesn't get to use the excuse of inexperience, which suggests his time was even worse! :o

Wayne Brittain   46   18   28   0   39.13   2001–2002
Denis Pagan   104   25   77   2   24.04   2003–2007
Brett Ratten   120   60   59   1   50.00   2007–2012
Mick Malthouse   54   20   33   1   37.04   2013–2015
John Barker   13   3   10   0   23.08   2015
Brendon Bolton   44   13   31   0   29.55   2016–

Coaches since Parkin in 2000. Games, wins, losses, draws.
Ratten 50%- not good enough, sack the coach.
Malthouse 37% sack the coach
Barker (caretaker)
Bolton 29%- ???

Can we see a common theme here?
We are changing coaches like we should be changing underwear and it's getting us worse as a result.
But, by all means, lets sack another coach...

Paul, that is a massive call.
How would you know that?
It is simply your opinion.

He is either the best person for the job or he isn't.

So what's wrong with a massive call ? The whole rebuild is a massive call. Is a strong opinion less valid than a weak one ?

Supporters of all clubs are very jumpy and very reactionary, and whatever expertise they bring to discussions occurs after the fact. And I include myself in this. One week Buckley and Dimma were both gone, now they're the bees knees. One week Bevo is the ants pants - now after 2 ordinary seasons, the Dogs are mid table battlers, and Bevo looks like a mid table battler. This week, Fagan is the greatest, Bolton is the worst. If we win our next 5, and the Lions lose the next 5, then the coaches swap status. And on it goes. The past is only partly relevant, because any opinions based on that are too late.

We need some real expertise to see the future, based on successful clubs, based on precedents, based on analysis etc. Not just black one week, white the next.

We need some real expertise to see the future, based on successful clubs, based on precedents, based on analysis etc. Not just black one week, white the next.

The problem looking at history is that the game is changing dynamically, leaving only parts of history with any relevance!

---

What about Pagan's comments, is his JSoS opinion correct even if his heart is not pure?

I would say Pagan's suggestion JSoS should move is possibly valid purely from a football perspective. But I'm not sure about Pagan's motives, he could just be sticking it to a few who stuck it to him! Pagan knows what it would do to the likes of Mathieson and Elliott, let alone the Silvagni family, to see a Silvagni running around at the Filth, Ferals or Cheats! No doubt about that!

PS; I don't think Liddle and LoGuidice are that gullible, it would cost the club 10k members, so the Silvagni experiment is an exercise in boom or bust we must see through!

Paul I don't think you can accuse our fans of being "jumpy" after our last 17 years.

Wayne Brittain   46   18   28   0   39.13   2001–2002
Denis Pagan   104   25   77   2   24.04   2003–2007
Brett Ratten   120   60   59   1   50.00   2007–2012
Mick Malthouse   54   20   33   1   37.04   2013–2015
John Barker   13   3   10   0   23.08   2015
Brendon Bolton   44   13   31   0   29.55   2016–

Coaches since Parkin in 2000. Games, wins, losses, draws.
Ratten 50%- not good enough, sack the coach.
Malthouse 37% sack the coach
Barker (caretaker)
Bolton 29%- ???

Can we see a common theme here?
We are changing coaches like we should be changing underwear and it's getting us worse as a result.
But, by all means, lets sack another coach...

this.

It is 100% the reason why Bolton shouldn't be sacked.  If we wait until the end of next season and we are in the same boat then maybe you could sack him then, but any movement before the end of 2020 is far too soon.

So what's wrong with a massive call ? The whole rebuild is a massive call. Is a strong opinion less valid than a weak one ?

"If they do have have a proper review, they will find Bolton is fine. Nothing surer."

That is what's wrong.
You said they will find Bolton is fine, nothing surer.

No one can suggest such a thing, after his record during this last 3 and a bit years.

Paul I don't think you can accuse our fans of being "jumpy" after our last 17 years.

I don't think Bolton should have to carry the can for anything before his time. If the fans' attitude is something like "we're fed up with the last 17 years of mostly poor performances, therefore Bolton has to go", that IMO, is appalling logic.

And my "jumpy" comment is more related to the fact that fans can't see the future, only the past, and that's not always a reliable indicator, as I've previously discussed.

"If they do have have a proper review, they will find Bolton is fine. Nothing surer."

That is what's wrong.
You said they will find Bolton is fine, nothing surer.

No one can suggest such a thing, after his record during this last 3 and a bit years.

It's my strong opinion that will be the case. I certainly can suggest that in the context of a footy forum. If you think it's laughable or ridiculous or untenable, or foolhardy, stupid, etc. I have no problem with that. And if he turns out to be a spud, I will have no problem saying my opinion was wrong.

this.

It is 100% the reason why Bolton shouldn't be sacked.  If we wait until the end of next season and we are in the same boat then maybe you could sack him then, but any movement before the end of 2020 is far too soon.

You can add to that.

If the trend continues we become less and less attractive to senior players and their managers, and with the small list sizes, combined with increased player fatigue, successful trading for senior players is far more important than it has ever been before!

We need durable senior heads that can lift the young keepers in the short term, give them time to develop which takes several years not several games!

You can add to that.

If the trend continues we become less and less attractive to senior players and their managers, and with the small list sizes, combined with increased player fatigue, successful trading for senior players is far more important than it has ever been before!

We need durable senior heads that can lift the young keepers in the short term, give them time to develop which takes several years not several games!

Agree, if we keep losing games this will happen

Wayne Brittain   46   18   28   0   39.13   2001–2002
Denis Pagan   104   25   77   2   24.04   2003–2007
Brett Ratten   120   60   59   1   50.00   2007–2012
Mick Malthouse   54   20   33   1   37.04   2013–2015
John Barker   13   3   10   0   23.08   2015
Brendon Bolton   44   13   31   0   29.55   2016–

...................

Lol. Has anyone emerged from the Carlton Coach Killer Vortex with even a shred of their good coaching record intact ? Pagan, Malthouse, maybe Bolton to follow suit. Whatever they've done before, at whatever level, their record is pretty good (check out Bolton's teenage and later record - not too shabby). Then they come to us........Surely only real talent, craft and dedication from someone(s) at the club can kill one coach after another, and not get caught.

All that matters is right now and the circumstances that got us here and the strategies to improve things.

Buckley changed and success followed, nothing to do with sticking with him.

Dimma changed and success followed, nothing to do with sticking with him.

Even Bomber had to change and success followed, nothing to do with sticking with him.

Even when their sides were not doing well, Buckley, Dimma and Bomber were all very good coaches. But, prior to change, they were hellbent on doing everything themselves... micromanaging everyone, drowning people in theories and instructions, finger in every pie. P1sses people off and creates confusion when the boss in an intense control freak.

The biggest question for BB, and his coaching career hinges on it, can he change? Can he learn to delegate and trust and let 'the cobblers, cobble?' Can he give fellow coaches and players, clear, succinct, BRIEF, instructions, then STFU? According to Wallsy the bloke can coach, so it's down to communication/management style.

If Buckley the uber perfectionist can let go, I'm sure Bolton can, especially if that's what it takes to keep his job. He's young enough, he's smart enough........

And if that's his biggest problem, then we're sweet.

Yes, it's a tough situation, because the MC will be trying to judge Lang's head-space more than anything else!

The worry is that he was a reluctant resident to start with!

---

Not wanting to taint any players, I've a mate who worries about the apparent lack of success of Geelong trades, not just at Carlton but across the AFL in general. Well not really their lack of success, but why they seem to over achieve while at the Handbaggers, like the Handbaggers have some magic potion, it must be the Bellarine air! ;)

This is yet another reason NOT to change things up dramatically at Carlton.

Geelong and Hawthorn are showing us why they have become strong clubs.  They were both struggling at the turn of the century.  Hawthorn were about to go through a merger with Melbourne, and Geelong won wooden spoons in the early 2000's.

What these clubs did back then, was not to change directions because what they implemented didn't yield immediate results.  They set themselves some goals, and conducted proper planning and processes both off and on field to strive to achieve things and continue ticking the boxes off, reviewing what works, what doesnt work, and dont swing wildly from one strategy to another.  Even the transition from Thompson to Scott seems to have been well planned, and paid immediate dividends.

The results were that they ended up with a really stable football club.  Stability off field translates to stability on field.  The thing is, that faces on the footy field do change, but they have a core of players that are there, that have been following the same sort of standards that were established under Bomber Thompson on field, and continue to be adhered to by incumbants.  Tom Harley (premiership captain) relinquished the reigns to Cameron Ling (Premiership captain) who relinquished the reigns to Joel Selwood (who was part of the leadership group under Cameron Ling).

What you see there is a continuity that we at Carlton can only dream about.  Not just the on field success, but the off field strategem.  During this time, we have chopped and changed 4 on field coaches, turned over more players that you can poke a stick at, and could turf our 5th coach and once again swing wildly due to people being worried about not achieving enough wins this season to justify the current course of action.



If you want a reason why you know that Geelong don't have some magic formula down there and simply have a better club culture, its really simple.  Its built on standards and continuity that has seen them go from cellar dwellars to Premierships over the span of 15 years, and when you wonder how they manage it, you only have to look at Zach Tuohy and Lachie Henderson to understand that they arent doing much more there than they did with us, they are simply surrounded by a better formed unit of players and any of our boys would look as good.

What you see there is a continuity that we at Carlton can only dream about.  Not just the on field success, but the off field strategem.  During this time, we have chopped and changed 4 on field coaches, turned over more players that you can poke a stick at, and could turf our 5th coach and once again swing wildly due to people being worried about not achieving enough wins this season to justify the current course of action.

I'm guessing the only people wanting to swing an axe are people on this site and some media types. I'm also guessing (well hoping really) that those that count are rock solid in their strategy and approach to this rebuild. If those at the top and in charge waiver from the plan, we are screwed.

I'm guessing the only people wanting to swing an axe are people on this site and some media types. I'm also guessing (well hoping really) that those that count are rock solid in their strategy and approach to this rebuild. If those at the top and in charge waiver from the plan, we are screwed.

Sit in the stands at games and hear what the supporter base say about Bolton....you wouldnt want to have a poll of supporters because it wouldnt be pretty reading.
Most have had enough.....I agree sacking Bolton now wont achieve anything but joe average public supporter wants action, not more cliches and the same tired old answers.

Sit in the stands at games and hear what the supporter base say about Bolton....you wouldnt want to have a poll of supporters because it wouldnt be pretty reading.
Most have had enough.....I agree sacking Bolton now wont achieve anything but joe average public supporter wants action, not more cliches and the same tired old answers.

Really EB? Supporters in the crowd? I'll just leave it at that.

Really EB? Supporters in the crowd? I'll just leave it at that.

Members/Supporters are like shareholders, they want a return on their time and money....yep you can leave it but thats
what the Elliott years were about, ignoring joe average and getting them to swallow every line of BS that came out of
Princes Park. The difference with us and the big clubs like a Geelong is that they stop, think and reset, we just keep doing the same thing
waiting for it to turn around, waiting for other clubs to drop off, waiting for Godot to turn up.

Members/Supporters are like shareholders, they want a return on their time and money....yep you can leave it but thats
what the Elliott years were about, ignoring joe average and getting them to swallow every line of BS that came out of
Princes Park. The difference with us and the big clubs like a Geelong is that they stop, think and reset, we just keep doing the same thing
waiting for it to turn around, waiting for other clubs to drop off, waiting for Godot to turn up.

I thought this rebuild was all about doing things differently ?

I thought this rebuild was all about doing things differently ?

We did do things differently in terms of not getting an established coach or favourite son... we took a punt on an untried bloke after a (supposed) rigorous interview process (which means little if the questions were ordinary asked by inexperienced individuals). (Though in 1965 we broke many, many molds recruiting this gun Captain from the Dees to be our senior coach - we were about 3rd bottom when he came, he had us playing finals footy 2 years later and winning a premiership the year after).

As far as hanging in there with a bloke, well we hung in with Pagan for 5 years... so, to break that mold we have to keep BB, regardless of continued failure, for at least 6 or 7 years.

If Buckley the uber perfectionist can let go, I'm sure Bolton can, especially if that's what it takes to keep his job. He's young enough, he's smart enough........

And if that's his biggest problem, then we're sweet.

I sincerely hope you're right. He'd better move quickly, very quickly... those drums we can hear aint coming from Gilligan's Island.

I sincerely hope you're right. He'd better move quickly, very quickly... those drums we can hear aint coming from Gilligan's Island.

I sincerely hope I'm right as well, and not because of ego.

I still maintain that the end of the 2020 season is the time to start a proper discussion, not before.

Members/Supporters are like shareholders, they want a return on their time and money....yep you can leave it but thats
what the Elliott years were about, ignoring joe average and getting them to swallow every line of BS that came out of
Princes Park. The difference with us and the big clubs like a Geelong is that they stop, think and reset, we just keep doing the same thing
waiting for it to turn around, waiting for other clubs to drop off, waiting for Godot to turn up.

Nope. We did, and are doing, exactly that (ie stop, think and reset, probably for the first time in our history). Those in charge now have gone through a due process with every appointment, trade and draft pick. Unlike the scatter gun approach and male appendage comparing of days gone by. Things will go wrong, they always do but it wont be for a lack of planning, research and hard work. That is what has given me the absolute s h i t s pre this regime.

Well I reckon Godot's got till the end of this season to turn up and show that he knows the right road to the promised land or we 'll be calling another uber.

Nope. We did, and are doing, exactly that (ie stop, think and reset, probably for the first time in our history). Those in charge now have gone through a due process with every appointment, trade and draft pick. Unlike the scatter gun approach and male appendage comparing of days gone by. Things will go wrong, they always do but it wont be for a lack of planning, research and hard work. That is what has given me the absolute s h i t s pre this regime.

My point is when things did go wrong the Cats did a review on the whole operation not just the coach and reset what they were doing, we need similar IMO. It isnt working and after 4 years we shouldnt be
bottom 4 as it seems to be panning out As Geelong showed its doesnt mean sacking the coach just changing the course and doing things different, changing roles, delegating different jobs etc etc the club seem to have trouble admitting its not working. This is my problem with where we are...admit failure and reset the business, happens every day in the business world and turn arounds are common place.
Or do we keep drifting along the same way for the rest of the season?

My point is when things did go wrong the Cats did a review on the whole operation not just the coach and reset what they were doing, we need similar IMO. It isnt working and after 4 years we shouldnt be
bottom 4 as it seems to be panning out As Geelong showed its doesnt mean sacking the coach just changing the course and doing things different, changing roles, delegating different jobs etc etc the club seem to have trouble admitting its not working. This is my problem with where we are...admit failure and reset the business, happens every day in the business world and turn arounds are common place.
Or do we keep drifting along the same way for the rest of the season?

I think the review wouldn't reveal much though at the moment.

I think that they knew this was a likely outcome, with a bit of luck we would see more improvement by now (i.e. Kreuzer and Docherty playing 5 games between them from last year to this year is not an anticipated outcome and probably has a bigger impace on the W/L column than anything else).

If at the end of next year, things are samish, then I think you would rightly find where its fallen over in a much better fashion.

I think the review wouldn't reveal much though at the moment.

I think that they knew this was a likely outcome, with a bit of luck we would see more improvement by now (i.e. Kreuzer and Docherty playing 5 games between them from last year to this year is not an anticipated outcome and probably has a bigger impace on the W/L column than anything else).

If at the end of next year, things are samish, then I think you would rightly find where its fallen over in a much better fashion.

I agree. There's not many on here who think the end of 2020 is the "right" time to do such a review - you, me, kruddler, maybe a couple of others. Most everyone else thinks it's crazy and way too generous.

I agree. There's not many on here who think the end of 2020 is the "right" time to do such a review - you, me, kruddler, maybe a couple of others. Most everyone else thinks it's crazy and way too generous.

When we first went down this road, I thought to myself, with a bit of luck we might play finals this season.

Kreuzer and Docherty out made me write off our chances this year.

I still had 2020 as the year we went from making up the numbers to being truly competitive and earning a finals berth on the back of our strategy, and I see no reason to think that wont be the case (losses included).

Come end of season, we will likely recruit a better than average target (not a Setterfield, more the Shiel variety) and will really start to kick on next year.

You start to think of Dow with 50 games under his belt, Walsh in his second season, Weitering on the back of career best year heading into year 5, Mckay on the back of his 5th and career best season, Fisher in year 3.

IMHO, we might throw a future 1st rounder, and our 1st rounder from Adelaide to GWS to land Coniglio and they might go for that.  You bring him to us next year, and add another year of the forwardline working together then we are simply missing a small forward and games played together to really kick on, and history tells us that small forwards with goal sense are probably the easiest cherry to find to add to your cake.

Thry, that's a similar scenario to what I was hoping for, but it does require a few things falling our way, the two most important being the right coach and minimal injuries.

I agree. There's not many on here who think the end of 2020 is the "right" time to do such a review - you, me, kruddler, maybe a couple of others. Most everyone else thinks it's crazy and way too generous.

I don't think it's crazy or generous....I do think it's unrealistic.
But I've been surprised at the level of support up until now.
That's a credit to the salesmen.
Whether they eventually prove to be snake oil salesmen or true visionaries will be known down the track.

I don't think it's crazy or generous....I do think it's unrealistic.
But I've been surprised at the level of support up until now.
That's a credit to the salesmen.
Whether they eventually prove to be snake oil salesmen or true visionaries will be known down the track.

Also Lods, bear in mind that a detailed and top to bottom review could conclude that we need to continue with BB! A review should not be a foregone conclusion if done properly and honestly, rather than with a particular outcome in mind.

Also Lods, bear in mind that a detailed and top to bottom review could conclude that we need to continue with BB! A review should not be a foregone conclusion if done properly and honestly, rather than with a particular outcome in mind.

Quite right
...and surely we shouldn't leave that until the end of next season.

The end of this year would be a more than appropriate time.

We should be having these reviews every year during a "rebuild".
Thats not to say sack him. I think we should stay the course until end of next year as well, but surely constant review is needed in any profession so changes can be made to correct any problems

for what it's worth, even though I think we should wait until end 2020 before deciding whether or not to get rid of BB, I think if we dont win any games in the next 8-10 he may find himself gone.

We should be having these reviews every year during a "rebuild".
Thats not to say sack him. I think we should stay the course until end of next year as well, but surely constant review is needed in any profession so changes can be made to correct any problems

for what it's worth, even though I think we should wait until end 2020 before deciding whether or not to get rid of BB, I think if we dont win any games in the next 8-10 he may find himself gone.

That's kind of the point.
As individuals we all have our own ideas about time frames, and they vary from supporter to supporter.
But in effect there are a whole combination of forces that impact on a decision to replace personnel.

While we might want to wait until the end 2020 is that a feeling that's held by all those in positions of power.
Already there have been replacements for Trigg and McKay, two of the driving forces in the early stages of the rebuild.
Do the new folk share their enthusiasm?
Are all the directors holding firm?
Support is also not fixed in stone and can erode quickly if some of these folk feel (believe) that things aren't really working.

You know what though....
One thing that is pretty well set in stone is that whatever their views, all of them and us supporters and members want what's best for the Carlton Football Club.
Even those acting with a fair bit of self interest want that.
People on here suggesting changes only do so because they believe that's what's best for the club.

It's been a long time since we've all had something we can get behind with most of the doubts about the direction we're taking being erased.
It would be nice to think we could be on that path by the end of the season.

Probably wishful thinking.

I'm wondering what this proposed "review" encompasses?   Who does the querying, what questions really need to be asked? What are we trying to ascertain?

It would nice if we could borrow somebody like Cook or Frank Costa who actually underwent this  process to find out what Geelong actually did,  although I suspect that Stephen  Wells and some quality FS picks probably counted just as much.

The worry is if the wrong people conduct a review you may find yourself spend less and less time doing what you are actually paid for!

Is there any chance we could have confidence in such a process?

I'm wondering what this proposed "review" encompasses?   Who does the querying, what questions really need to be asked? What are we trying to ascertain?

It would nice if we could borrow somebody like Cook or Frank Costa who actually underwent this  process to find out what Geelong actually did,  although I suspect that Stephen  Wells and some quality FS picks probably counted just as much.

At a guess, I'd say the review would mainly focus on how the club is performing relative to the original rebuild aims and objectives, and if we're failing, what is required to address that, i.e change of personnel, change of process etc. 

I would use the same mob that the Pies and Tigers used, as I've suggested before.

Also Lods, bear in mind that a detailed and top to bottom review could conclude that we need to continue with BB! A review should not be a foregone conclusion if done properly and honestly, rather than with a particular outcome in mind.

This is my point, a proper review is unlikely to mean sacking the coach but just adjusting how he goes about  his role as well as others......I think we are at the crossroads now, not in 2020.
Walls has been appointed as a babysitter and its not working, we are 3 wins from 36 games, the so called easybeats Gold Coast have three wins and have just beaten us.
Kreuzer and Docherty as saviours?.....both have been missed greatly but look at the future, Kreuzer is nearing the end and our backups cant cut it. Docherty is coming off a 2nd knee reco and
we need an insurance plan if he doesnt come up.
The other problem I have is the level of improvement, we might be improving but this year other so called poor performers have lifted their game and looking more advanced than we are.
The game plan is undefined and we rely purely on individual efforts rather than team work. We are horrible at the basics, kicking, decision making, fundamental errors are par for the course and accepted.
What other sporting organisation would tolerate this level of performance without making changes....?

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/06/05/review-healthy-but-do-it-right-says-williams/

2 bobs worth from Choc Williams.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/06/05/review-healthy-but-do-it-right-says-williams/

2 bobs worth from Choc Williams.

Fair enough comments and as the article says the precedent to that review from previous reviews at Geelong and Richmond was not to sack the coach.
The club should be happy to have a transparent open review to help Bolton and the team perform better.

Fair enough comments and as the article says the precedent to that review from previous reviews at Geelong and Richmond was not to sack the coach.
The club should be happy to have a transparent open review to help Bolton and the team perform better.

In most corporate environments a review is not intended to be transparent and open, a review won't be approved until it's phrased to deliver the preferred outcome! It's usually a smokescreen for doing something that would otherwise be seen as uncomfortably cruel or morally questionable!

In most corporate environments a review is not intended to be transparent and open, a review won't be approved until it's phrased to deliver the preferred outcome! It's usually a smokescreen for doing something that would otherwise be seen as uncomfortably cruel or morally questionable!

Agree, but this isnt BHP, Wesfarmers or Myer we are talking about this a football club in trouble who should be genuine in its attempts to improve a failing business.
If we feel there are likely smokescreens, contrived outcomes or political games then its start at the top and weed out those individuals who wont embrace a transparent or open review, those types are part of the problem. eg MLG, Board members, Judd, Mathieson etc etc......

Agree, but this isnt BHP, Wesfarmers or Myer we are talking about this a football club in trouble who should be genuine in its attempts to improve a failing business.
If we feel there are likely smokescreens, contrived outcomes or political games then its start at the top and weed out those individuals who wont embrace a transparent or open review, those types are part of the problem.
MLG, Board members, Judd, Mathieson etc etc......

Yep, they're either fair dinkum about putting the club first or they're not. It's easy to be cynical, but I'd rather be benign and let cynicism rule down the line if required.

Quite right
...and surely we shouldn't leave that until the end of next season.

The end of this year would be a more than appropriate time.

I think people are getting themselves worked up in a frenzy here.

At the end of this season there will be a review, for sure. You know what, i'm pretty sure every club does a review at the end of every season. It's expected.

You review the playing list every year as you need to cut/sign/trade/draft players.
You review the coaching group as its almost unheard of for 1 group to be unchanged from 1 year to the next.
You review all areas of the club.

Given we've only recently come up with our 5 year plan, you'd consider those goals and expectations were come up with based on a review of where we are, and where we want to be and what needs to happen to achieve them. You'd think that each and every year we'd review our current position to see how we are tracking with our goals.

You'd also like to think that you would review all previous reviews to work out what went right and what went wrong in your past review, to make your future reviews more accurate.

Review, review, review.


Bit of a buzzword at the moment don't you think?

Not sure it's aa frenzy.

If it were a frenzy we'd be demanding something immediately.

I think most supporters are prepared to wait until the end of the season for a transparent evaluation.

Not sure it's aa frenzy.

If it were a frenzy we'd be demanding some thing immediately.

Looks that way from where i'm sitting.

Vocal minority is getting mighty loud.

This is my point, a proper review is unlikely to mean sacking the coach but just adjusting how he goes about  his role as well as others......I think we are at the crossroads now, not in 2020.
Walls has been appointed as a babysitter and its not working, we are 3 wins from 36 games, the so called easybeats Gold Coast have three wins and have just beaten us.
Kreuzer and Docherty as saviours?.....both have been missed greatly but look at the future, Kreuzer is nearing the end and our backups cant cut it. Docherty is coming off a 2nd knee reco and
we need an insurance plan if he doesnt come up.
The other problem I have is the level of improvement, we might be improving but this year other so called poor performers have lifted their game and looking more advanced than we are.
The game plan is undefined and we rely purely on individual efforts rather than team work. We are horrible at the basics, kicking, decision making, fundamental errors are par for the course and accepted.
What other sporting organisation would tolerate this level of performance without making changes....?

Ripper stuff, EB1. Nothing missed. Your... "The game plan is undefined and we rely purely on individual efforts rather than team work." ...so nails our side.

Looks that way from where i'm sitting.

Vocal minority is getting mighty loud.

I'm not seeing it the same way.
Questions are being asked....but there is still a fair bit of "wait and see"

Perceptions a funny thing and we tend to overestimate  the  resistance to our point of view.
It seems 'louder' because we concentrate on the vocal opposition

Maybe we should run a poll.

I'm not seeing it the same way.
Questions are being asked....but there is still a fair bit of "wait and see"

Perceptions a funny thing and we tend to overestimate  the  resistance to our point of view.
It seems 'louder' because we concentrate on the vocal opposition

Maybe we should run a poll.

Hence why i keep bringing up the 'vocal MINORITY'.

I reckon most people are in favour of Bolton staying for now, and its ok for questions to be asked, but what is going on now reminds me of the start of the Pagan 'hall of shame' era.
That is...
We got done by the premiers today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
We got done by 10 goals today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
We couldn't kick straight today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
Play x was a late out today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
We lost the toss today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.

Every post that is made in where someone is critical of something that happened, the answer is inevitably, Boltons fault.

I'm not seeing it the same way.
Questions are being asked....but there is still a fair bit of "wait and see"

Perceptions a funny thing and we tend to overestimate  the  resistance to our point of view.
It seems 'louder' because we concentrate on the vocal opposition

Maybe we should run a poll.

You'd get a small sample space. Only the regular posters and some others. This site has 826 members, and you might get 50, maybe 100 votes. And there's 56000? CFC members. It certainly costs nothing and doesn't take any time to set up a poll. Just not sure what it would prove.

You'd get a small sample space. Only the regular posters and some others. This site has 826 members, and you might get 50, maybe 100 votes. And there's 56000? CFC members. It certainly costs nothing and doesn't take any time to set up a poll. Just not sure what it would prove.

You'd struggle to get much past 50 voters.

Even then, would it matter if 90% of them wanted Bolton gone?
12 months ago, 90% wanted Buckley gone.
24 months ago, 90% wanted Hardwick gone.
....

You'd struggle to get much past 50 voters.

Even then, would it matter if 90% of them wanted Bolton gone?
12 months ago, 90% wanted Buckley gone.
24 months ago, 90% wanted Hardwick gone.
....

Yes, too true. Points that I made in another post about supporters seeing the past without having a sense of the future.

I think people are getting themselves worked up in a frenzy here.

At the end of this season there will be a review, for sure. You know what, i'm pretty sure every club does a review at the end of every season. It's expected.

You review the playing list every year as you need to cut/sign/trade/draft players.
You review the coaching group as its almost unheard of for 1 group to be unchanged from 1 year to the next.
You review all areas of the club.

Given we've only recently come up with our 5 year plan, you'd consider those goals and expectations were come up with based on a review of where we are, and where we want to be and what needs to happen to achieve them. You'd think that each and every year we'd review our current position to see how we are tracking with our goals.

You'd also like to think that you would review all previous reviews to work out what went right and what went wrong in your past review, to make your future reviews more accurate.

Review, review, review.


Bit of a buzzword at the moment don't you think?

Bee is also a buzzword. Bee Bee are two buzzwords?

Hence why i keep bringing up the 'vocal MINORITY'.

I reckon most people are in favour of Bolton staying for now, and its ok for questions to be asked, but what is going on now reminds me of the start of the Pagan 'hall of shame' era.
That is...
We got done by the premiers today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
We got done by 10 goals today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
We couldn't kick straight today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
Play x was a late out today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.
We lost the toss today - because Pagan doesn't have a game plan and has lost the players.

Every post that is made in where someone is critical of something that happened, the answer is inevitably, Boltons fault.

Funnily enough these are some of the reactions I expected a year ago.
It comes with the coaching territory to a large extent
The longer you go without success the greater it becomes.
Initially it's just one or two voices, then a few more join the chorus....it's only a matter of time before the 'vocal minority' becomes the 'vocal majority'
That's when it's over.
There's only one way to stop that ride down the slippery slope.

You can't sack and replace an entire  list (although we've given it a good try)
Assistants ,who should bear a large part of the blame, get overlooked because the buck stops with the head coach.
Bolton's longevity is largely dependent on his alliances in the club.

Again though I'm not seeing your last sentence as correct.
Folks don't all believe everything that's wrong is Bolton's fault
I'd also expect any poll we undertook wouldn't advocate his replacement in the short term.

I think people are getting themselves worked up in a frenzy here.

At the end of this season there will be a review, for sure. You know what, i'm pretty sure every club does a review at the end of every season. It's expected.

You review the playing list every year as you need to cut/sign/trade/draft players.
You review the coaching group as its almost unheard of for 1 group to be unchanged from 1 year to the next.
You review all areas of the club.

Given we've only recently come up with our 5 year plan, you'd consider those goals and expectations were come up with based on a review of where we are, and where we want to be and what needs to happen to achieve them. You'd think that each and every year we'd review our current position to see how we are tracking with our goals.

You'd also like to think that you would review all previous reviews to work out what went right and what went wrong in your past review, to make your future reviews more accurate.

Review, review, review.


Bit of a buzzword at the moment don't you think?

We have been a loser club for so long doing things right is an accident rather than planning, we need a independent review anyway not some amateur hour biased internal review run by Judd, Brad Lloyd etc etc....
Sure you review every year but we need an in depth review, our version of a Royal Commission where every detail is looked at and where targets are set, the only reason the club wouldnt do a proper independent review is if they were scared of the results and dont want any open transparency about the operations on and off the field.

Funnily enough these are some of the reactions I expected a year ago.
It comes with the coaching territory to a large extent
The longer you go without success the greater it becomes.
Initially it's just one or two voices, then a few more join the chorus....it's only a matter of time before the 'vocal minority' becomes the 'vocal majority'
That's when it's over.
There's only one way to stop that ride down the slippery slope.

You can't sack and replace an entire  list (although we've given it a good try)
Assistants ,who should bear a large part of the blame, get overlooked because the buck stops with the head coach.
Bolton's longevity is largely dependent on his alliances in the club.

Again though I'm not seeing your last sentence as correct.
Folks don't all believe everything that's wrong is Bolton's fault
I'd also expect any poll we undertook wouldn't advocate his replacement in the short term.

re bold...
Its not there yet, but its a lot closer than i'd expected based on the teams efforts this year.

Yes, you thought this would happen sooner, and i think you were the first one to have that thought that i can recall.

That doesn't mean it should happen.
That doesn't mean that the fact it is happening now makes it right
That doesn't mean that even if more people jump on board that it somehow becomes right.

Look, i think this line is what i'm most worried about.

...it's only a matter of time before the 'vocal minority' becomes the 'vocal majority'
That's when it's over.

Thats essentially what happened with Ratten sacking, you and i basically had to 'admit defeat' after the gold coast game and jumped from 'the majority' to the 'new majority'.
I don't want that to happen, because as a group, Carlton fans are far from patient. Yes, we've been more patient (in a way) now more than ever before, but that doesn't mean we are being patient enough. I think we are very much on the turning point right here and now. So much so that it could be this week. I think we'll beat the dogs. I don't think we'll fall over the line, i think we'll make a few within the AFL take note. 'Sleeping giant starts to stir'.
Alternatively, if we do get done, and by plenty, the opposite seems more likely.

Now that is my opinion based on trends/performances from us. It could go that way, or it could be a perfect storm against us with the dogs having a day out, us copping injuries and the ball bouncing in another direction - thats the beauty of football. But if its not this week, it could be next week....etc. I'm worried that we make a rash decision and bite the bullet a week, a month or even a year TOO SOON, like it appears we did with Ratten.

We have been a loser club for so long doing things right is an accident rather than planning, we need a independent review anyway not some amateur hour biased internal review run by Judd, Brad Lloyd etc etc....
Sure you review every year but we need an in depth review, our version of a Royal Commission where every detail is looked at and where targets are set, the only reason the club wouldnt do a proper independent review is if they were scared of the results and dont want any open transparency about the operations on and off the field.

Ah, not just a review, but a PROPER review. Thats the difference.  ::)

So who does the review? Who follows up on the findings of the review? Who has ultimate say on who/what should change from the review?

You cited both the cats and hawks in terms of their 'reviews'. What you seem to be missing/ignoring is that in both cases they have had a largely stable figurehead at the club for a long period of time. Cook has been at the cats since we were last in the grand final. Kennett is now in his 2nd stint at the hawks in that time. Alternatively, we've had 5 presidents since the Elliot days, including a reluctant Kernahan who took the role through lack of other options.

..and that doesn't take into account the 'benefactors' like Mathison who have their 2 bobs worth as well.

Do you trust MLG to make the right calls under any reveiw recommendations that is put forth? Has he not been in charge over all the decisions that have been made at the club currently? Taking any alternative action would be admitting that the initial action was wrong. Doing that is not a strong suit of Carlton folk, ask big jack, collo......

Ah, not just a review, but a PROPER review. Thats the difference.  ::)

So who does the review? Who follows up on the findings of the review? Who has ultimate say on who/what should change from the review?

You cited both the cats and hawks in terms of their 'reviews'. What you seem to be missing/ignoring is that in both cases they have had a largely stable figurehead at the club for a long period of time. Cook has been at the cats since we were last in the grand final. Kennett is now in his 2nd stint at the hawks in that time. Alternatively, we've had 5 presidents since the Elliot days, including a reluctant Kernahan who took the role through lack of other options.

..and that doesn't take into account the 'benefactors' like Mathison who have their 2 bobs worth as well.

Do you trust MLG to make the right calls under any reveiw recommendations that is put forth? Has he not been in charge over all the decisions that have been made at the club currently? Taking any alternative action would be admitting that the initial action was wrong. Doing that is not a strong suit of Carlton folk, ask big jack, collo......

You have just indicted you dont have faith/trust in MLG, indicated you dont want Mathieson/benefactors involved, and indicated the club are not to be trusted on acting on the recommendations of a serious review.
On that basis how can you trust any type of decision making that the club make now or in the future? Surely a Independent review is the only way to go and a figure like Brian Cook wouldnt be a bad candidate to be part of or lead that review? as we both seem to agree he has credibility and experience.

You have just indicted you dont have faith/trust in MLG, indicated you dont want Mathieson/benefactors involved, and indicated the club are not to be trusted on acting on the recommendations of a serious review.
On that basis how can you trust any type of decision making that the club make now or in the future? Surely a Independent review is the only way to go and a figure like Brian Cook wouldnt be a bad candidate to be part of or lead that review? as we both seem to agree he has credibility and experience.

No, what i have said is not a personal opinion. I am asking the question of you.

Basically, those in charge believe they are doing the right thing because they are the ones that have done it.
Based on that, what makes you think that they will change tact, and go AGAINST what they believe to be true, because some 'random' tells them too?

Hey, they might swallow their pride and take it all on board and make some changes that ultimately leads to a flag or 6. But they might stay the course too and ignore any or all recommendations....and that might lead to a flag or 6 too.

So the question i ask is....
Who does the review?
Who decides whether to follow through with the recommendations of the review?
Who decides what action to take against those who initiated the plan in contrast to the reviews recommendations?

....and further to the above and something i've meant to post a few times now.

Could the act of going through a review actually destabilise the club?
Could fingers start to be pointed at others both prior and post review period to the point where every man is looking after themselves first and team second?
Could peoples focus be taken off the prize of making Carlton better, and go into self preservation mode instead?


Point is, as good of a concept a magical 'review' is, its not without its issues.

You'd struggle to get much past 50 voters.

Even then, would it matter if 90% of them wanted Bolton gone?
12 months ago, 90% wanted Buckley gone.
24 months ago, 90% wanted Hardwick gone.
....

They were hanging around the bottom with 3 wins from 36. Pies were roundabout and Richmond have been in the finals 3 years straight. Not sure the comparison is the same. For every Buckley there is 50 Mark Neelds.

They were hanging around the bottom with 3 wins from 36. Pies were roundabout and Richmond have been in the finals 3 years straight. Not sure the comparison is the same. For every Buckley there is 50 Mark Neelds.

....and maybe for every Buckley there is 50 Brett Rattens?

Point is, we don't know either way.

Our list makeup (including injuries to Doc etc) suggests we should be where we are.
Our list makeup suggests we should be skyrocketing up the ladder in the not too distant future too.

They were hanging around the bottom with 3 wins from 36. Pies were roundabout and Richmond have been in the finals 3 years straight. Not sure the comparison is the same. For every Buckley there is 50 Mark Neelds.

And yet, both Buckley and Hardwick came close to being sacked. It's not about W/L or ladder position. It's about lack of progress, and what is required for that progress to occur. Tigers were plateauing, and the Pies were going backwards, which is why they were folks who wanted the coaches gone. 

Who does the review?
Who decides whether to follow through with the recommendations of the review?
Who decides what action to take against those who initiated the plan in contrast to the reviews recommendations?

1: Independent review panel headed by a Brian Cook or similar.
2: The club/board are paying for a review, I expect the board and president to follow through and I would
have a member of the review panel attached to the board to monitor progression and the club to have regular follow ups.
3: Those who initiated the plan who were still in office after the review along with any new staff employed would initiate
the new recommendations. This isnt the Waffen SS we are conducting a review not a purge.

Could the act of going through a review actually destabilise the club?
Could fingers start to be pointed at others both prior and post review period to the point where every man is looking after themselves first and team second?
Could peoples focus be taken off the prize of making Carlton better, and go into self preservation mode instead?

(a) I would see a review as a Catalyst not destabilization ...turnarounds in a business usually require a bit of blood on the floor according to Warren Buffet
(b) Possibly....but if you are doing your job you have nothing to fear.
(c) We are a long way from any prize apart from a spoon, the review will determine if we are getting better and see(b)

Who does the review?
Who decides whether to follow through with the recommendations of the review?
Who decides what action to take against those who initiated the plan in contrast to the reviews recommendations?

1: Independent review panel headed by a Brian Cook or similar.
2: The club/board are paying for a review, I expect the board and president to follow through and I would
have a member of the review panel attached to the board to monitor progression and the club to have regular follow ups.
3: Those who initiated the plan who were still in office after the review along with any new staff employed would initiate
the new recommendations. This isnt the Waffen SS we are conducting a review not a purge.

Thats a very PG rated disney movie wrapped up with a nice little bow.

Reality is much different.

A review will find that someone, somewhere made the wrong call on something. Be that anyone from the president, to the ceo, to the board as a whole, to the coach or coaching assistants, recruiters and list managers, fitness staff etc.
Someone somewhere was responsible for giving the above person that role/responsibility that ultimately f***ed up. Are they now held accountable too? What about the person that hired that person?

eg. Lets say review shows our football department is not functioning correctly. Perhaps its suggested that we have too many people controlling the midfield area which is leading to confusion. What do we do?
1. Do we sack/fire the weakest link in that midfield coaching group?
2. Do we move that person into a different role at the club?
3. Do we blame Bolton for structuring the staff in that manner and realise he is in above his head?
4. Do we blame the bloke who OK'd the structure of the football department and ultimately allowed this problem to occur?
5. Do we blame the guy who hired the guy to oversee the football department as he hired someone who was unfit to do that role?
etc

In the process of doing this, someones nose will get out of joint (if not multiple peoples). Perhaps a player might lose his favourite coach. Perhaps that coach jumps ship next year. Perhaps that player follows suit. Perhaps the overall gains expected from this reshuffling does not yield any improvement in results/functioning. Perhaps it ultimately has a negative effect.

You can play the 'what if' game and go through millions of permutations of what could and could not happen one way or another....and all of that is based on someones opinion, that may not be any more correct than you, I, or the people in charge currently.

Desired result:  I just want us to win some bloody games.

Q.   How do we accomplish this?

A.  .......

Thats a very PG rated disney movie wrapped up with a nice little bow.

Reality is much different.

A review will find that someone, somewhere made the wrong call on something. Be that anyone from the president, to the ceo, to the board as a whole, to the coach or coaching assistants, recruiters and list managers, fitness staff etc.
Someone somewhere was responsible for giving the above person that role/responsibility that ultimately f***ed up. Are they now held accountable too? What about the person that hired that person?

eg. Lets say review shows our football department is not functioning correctly. Perhaps its suggested that we have too many people controlling the midfield area which is leading to confusion. What do we do?
1. Do we sack/fire the weakest link in that midfield coaching group?
2. Do we move that person into a different role at the club?
3. Do we blame Bolton for structuring the staff in that manner and realise he is in above his head?
4. Do we blame the bloke who OK'd the structure of the football department and ultimately allowed this problem to occur?
5. Do we blame the guy who hired the guy to oversee the football department as he hired someone who was unfit to do that role?
etc

In the process of doing this, someones nose will get out of joint (if not multiple peoples). Perhaps a player might lose his favourite coach. Perhaps that coach jumps ship next year. Perhaps that player follows suit. Perhaps the overall gains expected from this reshuffling does not yield any improvement in results/functioning. Perhaps it ultimately has a negative effect.

You can play the 'what if' game and go through millions of permutations of what could and could not happen one way or another....and all of that is based on someones opinion, that may not be any more correct than you, I, or the people in charge currently.

So you dont want to do anything just in case some one gets their nose out of joint or offended.....?

Desired result:  I just want us to win some bloody games.

Q.   How do we accomplish this?

A.  .......

When in doubt swap the forwards and the backs. ;D

When in doubt swap the forwards and the backs. ;D

It's amazing lods.

This is a joke, but prior to euro 2004, the Greek national team coach otto rehagel started off as a new coach.

His first move was to play the defenders forward, and the forwards back.

The next result was a 5-1 loss to Finland.

After that game, certain players who wouldn't do what was asked were told to leave the national team.

From that day forwards the Greek national team was the most committed I've ever seen and lifted the most unlikely European championship ever seen and will ever see again.

Some of these methods are not there for the reasons people think they are.

It's amazing lods.

This is a joke, but prior to euro 2004, the Greek national team coach otto rehagel started off as a new coach.

His first move was to play the defenders forward, and the forwards back.

The next result was a 5-1 loss to Finland.

After that game, certain players who wouldn't do what was asked were told to leave the national team.

From that day forwards the Greek national team was the most committed I've ever seen and lifted the most unlikely European championship ever seen and will ever see again.

Some of these methods are not there for the reasons people think they are.

Didn't work so well with Fev and Pagan. Gehrig kicked 4 goals in the first quarter on Fev.  :-[

So you dont want to do anything just in case some one gets their nose out of joint or offended.....?

No, again, this is not my personal opinion.

What i'm saying is people need to be careful what they wish for.

People generally fear change. That is, unless something bad is happening then any change is good by comparison. However, the emotional state that people are in when they want change generally overlooks even the possibility that a change could be worse.

Ultimately, what we are doing now doesn't work, so do something else.
vs
Will us doing what we are doing now, work for us later on?

I said this earlier. People were all for a rebuild. Everybody's idea of what that meant was different. IMO, the fine print never needed to be communicated to the public as any variation (forward or back) from that would lead to headaches. However, now it seems your average joe believes that results from said rebuild should be more advanced than what they currently are. Does the club bend to average joe? Does the club stick fat with what they are doing, knowing that being a challenger at this stage is not within our reach?

Basically, anyone who says "its simple, all we need to do is...." has no idea. Its not simple.

We can play the what if game until the saints win their next flag, but sometimes the best thing to do is hurry up and wait.

Didn't work so well with Fev and Pagan. Gehrig kicked 4 goals in the first quarter on Fev.  :-[

That was a learning experience.
Fev kicked 7 and was BOG the next week ;D

That was a learning experience.
Fev kicked 7 and was BOG the next week ;D

To me it's a difference between how Pagan disciplined and educated players while BB plays them under repeated adversity, of course Fev wasn't a beginner like McKay or Charlie.

But I think BB could learn from Pagan in this regard, as I'm not sure long ongoing adversity does much for players. I think they just need some exposure to the pressure of adversity to make them appreciate what they're missing! Especially when our defence falters under a lack of assisting pressure from our midfield or forwards, if they are not going to work for the team let them experience the pain!

That was a learning experience.
Fev kicked 7 and was BOG the next week ;D

A learning experience, perhaps, but one you'd not want to repeat anytime soon.

Fun fact of the day. In that Saints game they kicked 31.10.196

That 196 points is the largest ever score we've conceeded.

Another fun fact. Not only did fev get 7 goals and BOG from the next match, the match after that he kicked 6, and the one after he kicked 8. 3 weeks in a row he got 6 or more goals and 3 brownlow votes in each game.

BTW....I don't really think we should swap our forwards and backs. ;D

A learning experience, perhaps, but one you'd not want to repeat anytime soon.

Fun fact of the day. In that Saints game they kicked 31.10.196

That 196 points is the largest ever score we've conceeded.

Another fun fact. Not only did fev get 7 goals and BOG from the next match, the match after that he kicked 6, and the one after he kicked 8. 3 weeks in a row he got 6 or more goals and 3 brownlow votes in each game.

Ahh the good old days when results didn't matter and it was all about learning. :D

BTW....I don't really think we should swap our forwards and backs. ;D

Ahh the good old days when results didn't matter and it was all about learning. :D

Ziiinnnnnggggg.

A review must be done by someone / organisation that is 100% objective and nothing to do with the CFC (whoever did Tiggers and Rottingwood would be the obvious choice). My concern is that we'd get Juddy's buddy (who's now on the Board) to do the review.

Ross Lyon has the Dockers back up the ladder.

Ross Lyon has the Dockers back up the ladder.

Yep. Not sure why he gets a bad rap here. We support the worst side in the comp for the last 20 years. We shouldn't be paying out on anyone.

Yep. Not sure why he gets a bad rap here. We support the worst side in the comp for the last 20 years. We shouldn't be paying out on anyone.

I'll pay out on Melbourne. 

They're worse than we are over the last twenty years although ask me again in two years and it will likely be us.

Yep. Not sure why he gets a bad rap here. We support the worst side in the comp for the last 20 years. We shouldn't be paying out on anyone.

Yeah for a guy that’s got some pretty average sides to play off in GFs, it is a little odd.
It’s like some on here want to languish at the bottom.
Don’t change a thing it will all come good one day  ::)

Yeah for a guy that’s got some pretty average sides to play off in GFs, it is a little odd.
It’s like some on here want to languish at the bottom.
Don’t change a thing it will all come good one day  ::)

Ugly style of football, questionable character, and a knob head in his pressers. And his GF teams were not ordinary.

Ugly style of football, questionable character, and a knob head in his pressers. And his GF teams were not ordinary.

If it came to a choice between a nice bloke with a beautiful smile who can't win more than a few games a year, and, "Ugly style of football, questionable character, and a knob head in his pressers," I'll take the knob who delivers wins.

Besides I don't mind his media contributions and wry sense of humour; seems to me to be the sort of bloke who has a low tolerance for fools.

Doesn't seem to be coaching 'ugly' any more, reckon Ross has changed his coaching style to suite the modern game, and it's turning out very effective - with a so so side, talent wise.

As for questionable character (guess you're referring to how he left the Aints and his alleged inappropriate comments to a woman at a party) I think that's harsh and over-the-top, who hasn't stuffed up?

Is he for us? Dunno. Maybe, maybe not. Point is, the bloke can coach and coach well.

Ugly style of football, questionable character, and a knob head in his pressers. And his GF teams were not ordinary.

Should have won one at St Kilda and set them up for a few years, but coached for his record and refused to play or develop the kids..... plus he walked out on them when he realized that he had played his ‘tried and trues’ until they had nothing in the tank, and there were none coming through. (Tom Lynch got sick of waiting and they were happy to see him go)

All about Lyon. 

If it came to a choice between a nice bloke with a beautiful smile who can't win more than a few games a year, and, "Ugly style of football, questionable character, and a knob head in his pressers," I'll take the knob who delivers wins.

Besides I don't mind his media contributions and wry sense of humour; seems to me to be the sort of bloke who has a low tolerance for fools.

Doesn't seem to be coaching 'ugly' any more, reckon Ross has changed his coaching style to suite the modern game, and it's turning out very effective - with a so so side, talent wise.

As for questionable character (guess you're referring to how he left the Aints and his alleged inappropriate comments to a woman at a party) I think that's harsh and over-the-top, who hasn't stuffed up?

Is he for us? Dunno. Maybe, maybe not. Point is, the bloke can coach and coach well.

His media moments are cringeworthy, and his coaching prowess is over stated IMO. As for coaching ugly, I guess you missed R2 and R3, which prompted Matt Lloyd to say "gee, you'd hate to be a forward under Ross Lyon", or words to that effect.

As for stuffing up, maybe, just maybe, the incident at the Xmas party counts as that (he didn't handle the aftermath of that too well IMO), but the swapping clubs was simply calculated deceit, not accidental stuffing up.

Sorry, big no from me. If the club insists on a new Messiah, we have to do better than him.

Ugly style of football, questionable character, and a knob head in his pressers. And his GF teams were not ordinary.

Lyon has had some good success.
He's also had some bad years.

If he were to replace BB at this stage I suspect he would also be a polarising and divisive figure largely due to some of the factors above, but also due to the fact that most have not exhausted their patience with Bolton just yet.
Some of the negatives regarding Lyon are based on little more than our own bias and perceptions but...
Folks would have pretty set opinions from the get-go
He'd want to put results on the board pretty quickly to turn the negative opinions around.

Your length of time as a Carlton coach seems to have an interesting element to it.

If you come into the job with half hearted supporter approval you are under the pump much earlier and your time in the job is limited unless you deliver immediate success.
If you come into the job with greater support, a clean slate even, people are infinitely more patient...

Any new coach needs to belong to the second group.
If Bolton is replaced it will be if and when the majority's patience has run out... and his replacement will need to be seen as someone with strong, even universal approval, as the right man/woman for the job.

Lyon has had some good success.
He's also had some bad years.

If he were to replace BB at this stage I suspect he would also be a polarising and divisive figure largely due to some of the factors above, but also due to the fact that most have not exhausted their patience with Bolton just yet.
Some of the negatives regarding Lyon are based on little more than our own bias and perceptions but...
Folks would have pretty set opinions from the get-go
He'd want to put results on the board pretty quickly to turn the negative opinions around.

Your length of time as a Carlton coach seems to have an interesting element to it.

If you come into the job with half hearted supporter approval you are under the pump much earlier and your time in the job is limited unless you deliver immediate success.
If you come into the job with greater support, a clean slate even, people are infinitely more patient...

Any new coach needs to belong to the second group.
If Bolton is replaced it will be if and when the majority's patience has run out... and his replacement will need to be seen as someone with strong, even universal approval, as the right man/woman for the job.

We could have Norm Smith, Ron Barrassi, David Parkin, Vince Lombardi and John Madden combine for our coaching group, and we still wouldn't have the patience to allow them to undertake the type of rebuild we have gone through now.

Which is why i'm preaching patience with Bolton.

The astute observer will no doubt realise that a Lyon appointment is simply jobs for the boys.

His media moments are cringeworthy, and his coaching prowess is over stated IMO. As for coaching ugly, I guess you missed R2 and R3, which prompted Matt Lloyd to say "gee, you'd hate to be a forward under Ross Lyon", or words to that effect.

As for stuffing up, maybe, just maybe, the incident at the Xmas party counts as that (he didn't handle the aftermath of that too well IMO), but the swapping clubs was simply calculated deceit, not accidental stuffing up.

Sorry, big no from me. If the club insists on a new Messiah, we have to do better than him.

Holy mackerel, you really do despise the bloke. Sounds like you want him put in the stocks and thrashed for crimes against coaching, media and his former employer!

Holy mackerel, you really do despise the bloke. Sounds like you want him put in the stocks and thrashed for crimes against coaching, media and his former employer!

I don't hate anyone. I just think if we're going to go through yet another premature sacking, then it should be for someone better than him.

The astute observer will no doubt realise that a Lyon appointment is simply jobs for the boys.

Perhaps you mean, 'people who see things as I do...'

You don't think SOS's appointment isn't 'jobs for the boys?'

You don't think Juddy's appointment isn't 'jobs for the boys?'

You don't think David Campbell's appointment isn't 'jobs for the boys?'

I can name more.

I don't hate anyone. I just think if we're going to go through yet another premature sacking, then it should be for someone better than him.

Now that I understand. We might have something to discuss re 'premature', as that is purely subjective and you're obviously a far more patient person than I.

Perhaps you mean, 'people who see things as I do...'

You don't think SOS's appointment isn't 'jobs for the boys?'

You don't think Juddy's appointment isn't 'jobs for the boys?'

You don't think David Campbell's appointment isn't 'jobs for the boys?'

I can name more.

SOS' appointment probably was. I don't know who Judd's friends are at the club - I'd say his appointment was 50/50 wrt jobs for the boys. Lloyd (as in Brad) and Bolton were not.

SOS' appointment probably was. I don't know who Judd's friends are at the club - I'd say his appointment was 50/50 wrt jobs for the boys. Lloyd (as in Brad) and Bolton were not.

Just curious, how do you know this?

Just curious, how do you know this?

I think it's fair to assert this.

Neither figure had a previous relationship with our club.

I'm with you Paul,  massive no from me.   Lyon has a stench emanating from him that is not good... Whatever happened with that woman at the Christmas party sets a very poor example.  Can't have a coach expecting players to adhere to codes of behaviour when he didn't. 

I spend a lot of time in WA and the dockers are treated as a running joke over there.   They're irrelevant ..... Like a pesky and silly little brother by the Eagles' legion of fans.   For good reason because they are the complete antithesis of the Eagles Megacorp.   It's a shame because the Fremantles at WAFL level are solid clubs with long histories and very loyal,  engaged supporters.

I can;t recall if it was this thread or not, but we were talking about % as a guide of development and people were complaining our % was akin to our wooden spoon years (after a premature 3 rounds).

It went up after a narrow loss last week.

Obviously, it went up again today.....to quite the respectable 92.6%

It hasn't been that high since round 21....2014!

I'd say there is a fair bit of development occurring.

I can;t recall if it was this thread or not, but we were talking about % as a guide of development and people were complaining our % was akin to our wooden spoon years (after a premature 3 rounds).

It went up after a narrow loss last week.

Obviously, it went up again today.....to quite the respectable 92.6%

It hasn't been that high since round 21....2014!

I'd say there is a fair bit of development occurring.

Yep,
It's a measurable improvement.

We just have to be a little careful.
In the early games it can fluctuate wildly because there isn't a great margin between your 'for' and 'against' especially if you've been involved in a few close matches.
After Round 1 it was 66%
A good win or a bad loss can boost it...or damage it significantly because your dealing with small numbers.

A large part of our percentage progress this year has been on the back of an  excellent defence.

You can compare it on a week to week basis...but that's also a bit meaningless because you play different sides in different conditions each year.
I might do it in that goal tracker thread just for a comparison but don't put a lot of weight on it.

As the season progresses it will give us a more significant picture and a better measure of improvement

Yep,
It's a measurable improvement.

We just have to be a little careful.
In the early games it can fluctuate wildly because there isn't a great margin between your 'for' and 'against' especially if you've been involved in a few close matches.
After Round 1 it was 66%
A good win or a bad loss can boost it...or damage it significantly.

A large part of our percentage progress this year has been on the back of an  excellent defence.

You can compare it on a week to week basis...but that's also a bit meaningless because you play different sides in different conditions each year.
I might do it in that goal tracker thread just for a comparison but don't put a lot of weight on it.

As the season progresses it will give us a more significant picture and a better measure of improvement

And that my friends is where this rebuild began. In defense.
Now that line has consolidated, it's time for the others to follow. Won't happen this year but it will happen  :)

And that my friends is where this rebuild began. In defense.
Now that line has consolidated, it's time for the others to follow. Won't happen this year but it will happen  :)

Actually we might start firing in about ten weeks.

If I were a betting man, I might consider 2020 a possible premiership year.

The right combination of ingredients are there, and all we need is an injury free run for the next 18 months to be a chance.