Carlton Supporters Club

It seems that many of the threads end up being rants about our reset, so I thought I’d start one exclusively for the rant!

Here’s my take, for what it’s worth. In the years to come, when we do return to significant competitiveness, have again awoken the sleeping masses who ‘barrack for’ Carlton plus picked up all the newbies, have a cup or two more in the cupboard (thus stretching us away from Essendon who are on the proverbial Road to Nowhere), when Cripps has notched up his 250 in the competition and we are discussing Deisel or Cripps in the center of our all time greatest team, when we are debating which was better Kouta’s last quarter in 99 against Essendon or Charlie when he single handedly torn Adelaide apart in that semi, when we refer to our 200 game superstars (Dow, O’Brien and De Koning) as the Class of 2018.....when I say all that to my grand kids or whoever is listening, I will also be saying that it wasn’t always like this

I will say that I stuck fat when the club took the bold / courageous move of 4 years of pain and sacrifice to ensure that we set ourselves on a course whereby we’ll NEVER have to reset again but simply top up and recruit wisely to stay as a contender.

There were passages on Friday night that frustrated me to the max (mainly from players who will not be part of the major resurgence) but I also saw enough isolated incidents to say ‘Yeh, this could be exciting!’

Rant over and out. 

The starting point in all this is purely and simply whether or not you believe in the current regime and current approach, whatever the short term evidence may tell you. If Bolton is doing exactly what he outlined when he applied for the job, and he was awarded the job based on being able to stay true to the course, then the club should have the guts to back him in, 100%, no ifs or buts.

If you could set out a strategy and say 100% that it will work there wouldn't be any questioning of the direction.

But we can't do that.
There are elements we can control.
There are decisions we can make that seem like a good idea at the time ( a more attacking 2018)...but often circumstances can work to derail them (injuries to key personnel).
And there are elements totally out of our control....e.g We don't know what the future holds for players coming off contract....we've signed some of the young ones to extensions... some before they've even reached double figure games! Others remain a worry...They'll come for Cripps big-time.
....and there's the old coach killer-injuries!

There are key questions that remain over the ability of coach and list manager.
The potential seems there...how will those young players develop. (3 of last years rising stars are really struggling at the moment and a number one draft pick is seemingly out of sorts)

Have we cut too deep into the list leaving us with an extended time frame to turn the corner?

Now a rebuild seemed like a good idea at the time, but the best argument I've heard for it was.... "It's something that we haven't tried before."

I can't have faith in that...I need something more.

So for me there are some uncertainties that require a wait and see.
Now is not the time for a change of direction...but the road needs to smooth out a bit in the months ahead or the wheels will fall off.

We've been given quite a list of good, young players, who alot of coaches would be happy to work with. By the 3rd year we should be seeing some movement up the ladder, playing with some direction, or at least having some idea of what you're supposed to do. Right now, 2 of our gun first round picks, Weitering and SPS look lost when they should be developing into stars. Last year, in about 70% of our games you could say we were right in it pretty late with a chance of winning despite just winning the 6 games. We were a prick of a side to play up until about round 18 when the young ones started to tire. We could well have expected to be top 10 or 11 based on that.

What we have done well is pick alot better beyond the first round. That will help as we develop.

Footy is a business, like any other business you have to deliver to the customers.....Stkildas rebuild has failed, Richardson will probably get the lemon and sars at seasons end, thats the reality.  Our rebuild is faltering, if its not the list then its the football department and we need to make changes to the staff or how we go about it, doesnt mean Bolton has to go but it might mean a shake up and a  few others have to go and my pet hate a Director of coaching gets placed above Bolton to fill in the gaps where he is lacking.
He is a novice coach who came from a successful club but he is still a novice, he looked rattled at his last presser and said we need wins and is hoping to get a few by mid year....he isnt an idiot , while he has downplayed results as a factor in the rebuild he knows every loss is another nail in his coffin and he looks like he is starting to feel the pressure. No one expects a win vs the Crows but if we get hammered by arch rival Essendon its going to test the character of the board...

I wouldnt sack him but like I said I would give him more support and tweak a few things in the footy dept.....

Amazon operated at a loss for about 4 years before it turned a profit, and my simplistic knowledge of the business world leads me to believe they still have years where they lose money.

If the model, methods and personnel are sound, then sometimes you need to sit tight and have faith. I see little value in returning to the "sack coach after 5 minutes" model.

The whole club is invested in this reset or rebuild or whatever word you want to use not just BB. Our reputation as a club is on the line more than  it's ever been before imo. It is a huge investment in that sense and so the club collectively must pull out all stops to make it work. I believe the time for finger pointing at individuals is over.  The time frame I believe, as I have posted before, is that we are turning the corner this year, very competitive next year and climbing the ladder with young talent really starting to impress.

So far this year we have concerns for a number of reasons which are well documented, Some sound like excuses others may be valid but I certainly have my own concerns. I desperately hope that the senior club officials are very closely monitoring things and if BB does need more assistance then he gets provided with it - whatever is deemed appropriate. No more singling out sacrificial lambs - I certainly would not be even considering sacking BB as an option until the reset time frame is completed. If he is sacked then he should have plenty of mates to keep him company and the next reset should be a much more extensive one both on and off field.

Nice post cookie.

Two rounds ago I was ready to revert to "old Carlton" and sack the coach. Now, after so many people with real affinity with the game (Derm, Duck,etc) pleading for us the supporters to be patient, I can see why.
I like Townsend can see the potential this group is brewing, we will get another very early pick this year, and by all accounts this is the best draft in a generation (like the Hawthorn one that set them up for a decade).
Throw in Ben Silvani who is almost a bonus even if someone throws his name up early it would only bite into our second round (which we have two picks from memory), almost like sos thought this might have been how this year may pan out.
Don't forget that we virtually have stripped the playing list back to bare bones, I can't think of any other club to have been this ruthless, virtually taken back to a GWS/GCoast scenario, year zero stuff. It's not a reset or rebuild, it is a re-creation.
Its a completely different sport but Manchester United used to be crape, they recreated their entire list and gave Fergie carte blache and they have never looked back, but it was not over night. Fans brought out a tee shirt that stated
" I barracked for Man U when they were crape!"
I will do the same, design one through Vista Print, date it and put it on mothballs.........
Faith is building as is my club
Hanwell out.

Nice post H.

EDIT : and you should have faith regardless of what media people say - this week it's white, next week it's black..............

I was to see better selections and the look of at least a modern game plan where the players have some idea of what they are doing out there. If the latter doesn't happen, well, that's on the coach. Team selections are totally out of kilter with the modern game.

Don't forget that we virtually have stripped the playing list back to bare bones, I can't think of any other club to have been this ruthless, virtually taken back to a GWS/GCoast scenario, year zero stuff. It's not a reset or rebuild, it is a re-creation.

Isn't the problem with that though, that we're trying to do a duplication of the GWS/ Gold Coast situation without the draft concessions.

(We may pick up Ben Silvagni but at this stage the one he's likely to replace would be his brother.)

Isn't the problem with that though, that we're trying to do a duplication of the GWS/ Gold Coast situation without the draft concessions.

(We may pick up Ben Silvagni but at this stage the one he's likely to replace would be his brother.)

We've only been able to do it by giving players up along the way, so we have got more 1st rounders than the expansion clubs, but clearly it's at a cost.

We've only been able to do it by giving players up along the way, so we have got more 1st rounders than the expansion clubs, but clearly it's at a cost.

It's also in many cases their 'unwanted' first rounders which puts us well behind.

Absolutely agree with the sentiments, well considered thoughts and opinions expressed in this thread.

Well said, Fluffy One. Yes, 'Our reputation as a club is one the line'. Spot on. In corporate speak, our brand is on the line and is wearing some deep wounds already, in fact our club is only being held together by past reputation and past success. Today our club is limping badly due to the wounds delivered by arrogance, ignorance, laziness and jobs for mates.

Enormous credit must go to the Triggster and Judge for stopping the rot and setting a direction that factored in the desires of the Members and supporters - no more quick fixes.

But are we taking it too far? Are we using the sins of the past to excuse and justify present abject failure as inevitable if you're not doing it the 'new way', the 'reset' way? Are we using the sins of the past and what we supporters wanted to justify a slower than necessary 'rebuild', which started out as a 'reset'. Are we throwing out the baby with the bath water? Were there some characteristics of the traditional Carlton way which actually worked? Before Elliott fckd up everything, we had a culture of innovation, rapid change if necessary and pure excellence.

So, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment. Here are mantras we've heard from the club which I personally believe are wrong and counter productive or need further, better explanation:

1.  Not deviating. What does this actually mean? Does this mean not deviating from the path of no saviours or quick fixes? Or does it mean not to deviate from the present game plan/coaching styles/coaching & admin staff and so on? Both? Even Apollo missions, although having a clear destination, knew that constant 'course correction' is a reality.

Is BB willing to question his coaching/direction? There are some basics in coaching which need never be questioned, as they are self-evident realities. Something went horribly wrong and failed dismally when we attempted to alter our game to accommodate a more offensive style. It failed grandly, though it did provide us with, all up, about 20 minutes of attractive footy... not winning footy, but pretty footy. This tells me that our coaching people did NOT think it through. We seem to have dumped this... good, but I repeat, it would seem that we did not think through this strong change in game plan or it wasn't implemented correctly or we don't have the culture to integrate change, or someone was covertly resistent to the change... whatever, it was a colossal c0ckup which only confused everyone, the players, seemingly, most of all.

This early rounds 'offensive layer' flies in the face of the stated 'not deviating'. Good intention though, but obviously poorly done for whatever reason. 'Offensive layer' spanks of pretty speak, seductive corporate cr@p.

2. 'We're not putting a ceiling on...' Bullcrap. Although this sounds like a sexy, motivation 101 kind of statement hinting at not preventing us from amazing progress, it is cr@p. The human brain is a magnificent goal achieving device and needs/demands specific, incremental goals. We can then measure and deal with failure and celebrate successes along the way. I am confident we have these measurements in certain areas within the club, but we need bold, public, accountable declarations of W/L or ladder position goals or whatever... the Tiggers made a bold declaration a few years back re membership nos... they were laughed at, and who is doing the laughing now? There are many other examples. Seems to me that 'we're not putting a ceiling on (whatever)', is a cop out and actually playing safe. Fck safe. (But make sure how you deliver the goal public is simply put, not something that'll open you to mockery -- remember 'what have the 'Blues got cooking' or whatever it was. Dumb.

And that leads me to:

3. 'Not getting too high or too low'. Bullsh1t. That spanks of 'moderate.' Beige. And again, safe. There is nothing to be feared from expressing and acknowledging deep lows (hurt), this can become a great motivator. As can acknowledging and expressing big highs... a significant success deserves and demands celebration - this helps with goal achieving/setting by the way. Maybe BB is like this in his personal life, keeping ceilings (remember 'no ceilings?') on pain and joy... hurt and exhilaration?

Not getting too high or too low minimises loss/hurt/pain, which is not something a healthy person (or organisation) should ever do. Likewise, minimising a big win should never, ever be done. A big win should be celebrated and enjoyed to the fullest (within a certain time frame of course). This helps our brains understand and be super clear about our desired 'goals'.

Maybe moderating feelings is something that comes with 'teaching'. But leadership begs for authenticity, without artificial limits. Great leaders know how to manage extreme highs and lows (in themselves and others) and turn them into motivation and PASSION.

BB is a likeable person who will get more time and be forgiven more sins than more abrasive senior coaches. But where we are at present is totally unacceptable, and by where we are at present, I mean showing no improvement, in fact, we've gone further backwards.

For BB to mention that we'd win a game or two before the bye flies in the face of everything he's said previously and tells me that others may be pulling his strings/he's under pressure to deliver or he'll be marched out of the place... maybe this comment is just to keep the chooks (us) happy for a while, by feeding us a few morsels.

I really hope that BB is the man for the job, but to me 'no ceilings' is very similar to no accountability.

'Not getting too high or too low', minimises... and nothing ever shrank to greatness.

And to me the only things you never deviate from, when wanting sustained success, are ruthlessness, mongrel persistence and passion... and green shoots never grew into trees of ruthlessness, mongrel persistence and passion when grown in a soil of 'not getting too high or too low'.

It's also in many cases their 'unwanted' first rounders which puts us well behind.

Yes, I agree we're not getting the cream of their talent, but we are still getting pretty good players. And don't forget, we have a number of our own "top end" 1st rounders, so we are getting as close as it's possible to get IMO.

Yes, I agree we're not getting the cream of their talent, but we are still getting pretty good players. And don't forget, we have a number of our own "top end" 1st rounders, so we are getting as close as it's possible to get IMO.

We've just about run out of currency now though.
The young good players we want to keep.
The older ones probably wouldn't draw a top 10 pick.

We've just about run out of currency now though.
The young good players we want to keep.
The older ones probably wouldn't draw a top 10 pick.

Yes, that's true, which is partly why we're not planning too many changes in the future.

@Baggers
Interesting post Baggers. From what you are saying, has BB created somewhat of a cosy sheltered workshop where there is not a enough desire and hunger - the kind of hunger that bites and makes you ache to catch a meal i.e. success? BB plays his cards very close to his chest and gives very little away of anything so imo it's a bit hard to guess at what is going on in the inner sanctum.

Baggers, we were able to game the previous pre draft system because we had the means to do so. Elliott was successful in a time when the model suited his monetised, corporatised world view, and I don’t knock him for that. My knock on him is that he couldn’t or wouldn’t change when he needed to, and when the jig was well and truly up.

I must be one of the few who feel they understand Bolton quite clearly. “not deviating” means that we won’t go back to messiahs, singling out individuals etc. I don’t think it means he won’t amend the game plan etc. But coaches have a belief in certain things that work, things that have worked for them in the past, and things they expect will work for them now.

“Not putting a ceiling on” means partly not being able to predict the future, and not wanting to put a limit on what the team can achieve.

“Not getting too high or low” is simply about not letting emotions and rash thoughts / behaviours get in the way of clear rational thought. Not thinking their sh1t is beautifully fragrant when they win, and not jumping off bridges when they lose.

Clearly, you find his manner and phrases irritating or deceptive. I find he’s pretty straight up, but I guess his way of talking isn’t for everyone.

Paul I think BB would indeed irritate some people. He has the air of someone who has total confidence in what he's doing but, for now at least, is not willing to share his inner thoughts with anyone outside his immediate circle. I guess a few of us feel a bit left out of the loop and that can breed a bit of "nose out of joint syndrome". I mean I sometimes feel a little as if here we have this jovial smiling little character who is very happy to talk but at the end you wonder what he really told you. He's very good at only telling you so much, but in the nicest paaarsible way!

Paul I think BB would indeed irritate some people. He has the air of someone who has total confidence in what he's doing but, for now at least, is not willing to share his inner thoughts with anyone outside his immediate circle. I guess a few of us feel a bit left out of the loop and that can breed a bit of "nose out of joint syndrome". I mean I sometimes feel a little as if here we have this jovial smiling little character who is very happy to talk but at the end you wonder what he really told you. He's very good at only telling you so much, but in the nicest paaarsible way!

Yes, I can see that some folks aren't happy with the answers he gives, but I have no problem with them. Hopefully, he's an Honours graduate from the Eddie McGuire "Tell 'Em Nothing" academy. The media are desperate for any morsel, anything firm they can use against you in the future. We only need to recall Malthouse's "I can't see us losing a game" to see how those useless hacks will latch onto any piece of junk to run a "story." I think Bolts slipped up on the weekend when he talked about a win or two before the bye.

Yes, I can see that some folks aren't happy with the answers he gives, but I have no problem with them. Hopefully, he's an Honours graduate from the Eddie McGuire "Tell 'Em Nothing" academy. The media are desperate for any morsel, anything firm they can use against you in the future. We only need to recall Malthouse's "I can't see us losing a game" to see how those useless hacks will latch onto any piece of junk to run a "story." I think Bolts slipped up on the weekend when he talked about a win or two before the bye.

Yes I reckon the sniffing media hounds would hate the way he handles them. I see they're putting clouds over his future now hoping to get him to talk!  :))

Baggers, we were able to game the previous pre draft system because we had the means to do so. Elliott was successful in a time when the model suited his monetised, corporatised world view, and I don’t knock him for that. My knock on him is that he couldn’t or wouldn’t change when he needed to, and when the jig was well and truly up.

I must be one of the few who feel they understand Bolton quite clearly. “not deviating” means that we won’t go back to messiahs, singling out individuals etc. I don’t think it means he won’t amend the game plan etc. But coaches have a belief in certain things that work, things that have worked for them in the past, and things they expect will work for them now.

“Not putting a ceiling on” means partly not being able to predict the future, and not wanting to put a limit on what the team can achieve.

“Not getting too high or low” is simply about not letting emotions and rash thoughts / behaviours get in the way of clear rational thought. Not thinking their sh1t is beautifully fragrant when they win, and not jumping off bridges when they lose.

Clearly, you find his manner and phrases irritating or deceptive. I find he’s pretty straight up, but I guess his way of talking isn’t for everyone.

The invitation was for a rant... I took up the invitation, passionately  ;) :)

Highs and lows are a realistic and authentic part of life, as are emotions. It was one of the factors singled out in the Tiggers success last year, 360 feedback/expression around bona fide emotions (hurts/heroes and I forget the 3rd H). We shouldn't consign emotions to being solely 'irrational', many aren't. To me it's not an either/or thing but rather 'both' scenario. If emotions frighten you (not you personally) and must be controlled/dominated by rational thought then leadership aint for you. Leadership understands how best passion and thought can work together to get the best out of each other.

For me, allowing, even encouraging people to feel deep hurt and deep exhilaration around failure and success is great for development... provided you can provide a safe environment for them to do so - never ignore or deny or invalidate or minimalise emotions - they're friends not foes. Suppressing emotion is a gateway to trouble, big trouble. And believe me, gen y and millennials will use 'not too low' to minimise losing; to not seeing it as too bad thing; to not allowing themselves to hurt.

Of course you don't want people jumping off bridges after a loss, but hurts/disappointments not expressed or validated will far more likely lead to trouble than expressed, authentically expressed, hurts in a safe and validating environment.

The invitation was for a rant... I took up the invitation, passionately  ;) :)

Correct, that’s what we love!

For me, allowing, even encouraging people to feel deep hurt and deep exhilaration around failure and success is great for development... provided you can provide a safe environment for them to do so - never ignore or deny or invalidate or minimalise emotions - they're friends not foes. Suppressing emotion is a gateway to trouble, big trouble. And believe me, gen y and millennials will use 'not too low' to minimise losing; to not seeing it as too bad thing; to not allowing themselves to hurt.

Of course you don't want people jumping off bridges after a loss, but hurts/disappointments not expressed or validated will far more likely lead to trouble than expressed, authentically expressed, hurts in a safe and validating environment.

....so we created the Footy Forum ;D

The invitation was for a rant... I took up the invitation, passionately  ;) :)

Highs and lows are a realistic and authentic part of life, as are emotions. It was one of the factors singled out in the Tiggers success last year, 360 feedback/expression around bona fide emotions (hurts/heroes and I forget the 3rd H). We shouldn't consign emotions to being solely 'irrational', many aren't. To me it's not an either/or thing but rather 'both' scenario. If emotions frighten you (not you personally) and must be controlled/dominated by rational thought then leadership aint for you. Leadership understands how best passion and thought can work together to get the best out of each other.

For me, allowing, even encouraging people to feel deep hurt and deep exhilaration around failure and success is great for development... provided you can provide a safe environment for them to do so - never ignore or deny or invalidate or minimalise emotions - they're friends not foes. Suppressing emotion is a gateway to trouble, big trouble. And believe me, gen y and millennials will use 'not too low' to minimise losing; to not seeing it as too bad thing; to not allowing themselves to hurt.

Of course you don't want people jumping off bridges after a loss, but hurts/disappointments not expressed or validated will far more likely lead to trouble than expressed, authentically expressed, hurts in a safe and validating environment.

In my view, that is exactly the sort of environment Bolton is trying to create. But don't assume what you see in pressers etc. is automatically what happens behind closed doors.

In my view, that is exactly the sort of environment Bolton is trying to create. But don't assume what you see in pressers etc. is automatically what happens behind closed doors.

I have 'high hopes'  ;) ;) that you're right. But, ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating... And if words are the pudding, then our pudding is quite spectacular... but it tastes like cr@p  ;D ;) :)

My rant was just that, a rant. I believe what I wrote but it is just one perspective. Don't worry, there is a big part of me that remains deeply optimistic, especially, on a very realistic level, once we have a full list to pick from, we have more games into kids and we have our own stand alone VFL side -  8)

I'm concerned that there is a lot of faith expected and no guarantees in the rebuild process.   We can all handle a couple more years of shee-it if success will come,  but if we aren't off the bottom by end of 2019 the natives will get very restless.

I'm concerned that there is a lot of faith expected and no guarantees in the rebuild process.   We can all handle a couple more years of shee-it if success will come,  but if we aren't off the bottom by end of 2019 the natives will get very restless.

I suspect that if we're bottom 4 and looking as terrible as we currently do at year's end, then there'll be new faces in the coaching ranks in 2019.

I suspect that if we're bottom 4 and looking as terrible as we currently do at year's end, then there'll be new faces in the coaching ranks in 2019.

You mean senior coach or assistants ?

I'm concerned that there is a lot of faith expected and no guarantees in the rebuild process.   We can all handle a couple more years of shee-it if success will come,  but if we aren't off the bottom by end of 2019 the natives will get very restless.

I agree, but as you can see, I think some of the natives are getting restless now.

Our women's team fell in a heap. Our 2's are ordinary. Our seniors likewise. The whole club is in some kind of malaise. How will sacking Bolton help ? (i'm not saying you endorse such a position btw.)

When Bolton talks about a reset, it's everything - board, women's, 2's, seniors, footy department, marketing etc. It's a massive, massive undertaking.

Make no mistake the reset is underway and already two years old.
Results should be starting to eventuate.
We can't keep saying..."Starting ...NOW!"

Make no mistake the reset is underway and already two years old.
Results should be starting to eventuate.
We can't keep saying..."Starting ...NOW!"

Yes, but lods, they're not eventuating. Not in the seniors, not in the 2's, not in the women's. Where to now ? Sack all coaches ? Tank, delist 20 players then ask for a Priority Pick ? Do we get Barassi out of his nursing home ? Do we try to lure Matthews, Parkin, Pagan out of retirement ? These tough old timers that don't mince words and will give these namby pamby millennials a bit of what for ?

I don't think that sacking Bolton would improve anything.   What we need to sort out is why blokes who can play footy are currently so out of form and why quality kids have stagnated in their development.  I also can't see how we can possibly have a strong senior side when the Northern blues are so awful.

Round six across three formats (men's,  women's etc) and we have collectively lost the last 15 games.   Losing is becoming ingrained and "normal".

Yes, but lods, they're not eventuating. Not in the seniors, not in the 2's, not in the women's. Where to now ? Sack all coaches ? Tank, delist 20 players then ask for a Priority Pick ? Do we get Barassi out of his nursing home ? Do we try to lure Matthews, Parkin, Pagan out of retirement ? These tough old timers that don't mince words and will give these namby pamby millennials a bit of what for ?

We desperately need a circuit breaker...a win or two.
It would make the world of difference.
If we don't get it expect the pressure to build.
It won't be terminal this year but if we don't get it we'll head into 2019 with a coaching group under siege. 

I don't think that sacking Bolton would improve anything.   What we need to sort out is why blokes who can play footy are currently so out of form and why quality kids have stagnated in their development. I also can't see how we can possibly have a strong senior side when the Northern blues are so awful.

Round six across three formats (men's,  women's etc) and we have collectively lost the last 15 games.   Losing is becoming ingrained and "normal".

THIS

I don't think that sacking Bolton would improve anything.   What we need to sort out is why blokes who can play footy are currently so out of form and why quality kids have stagnated in their development.  I also can't see how we can possibly have a strong senior side when the Northern blues are so awful.

Round six across three formats (men's,  women's etc) and we have collectively lost the last 15 games.   Losing is becoming ingrained and "normal".

Precisely why the Bolton Under Pressure thread is nonsense. The whole club (and I mean the whole club) is under pressure.

Precisely why the Bolton Under Pressure thread is nonsense. The whole club (and I mean the whole club) is under pressure.

The thread has a question mark attached to it.
It's valid to argue that he's not....and for the time being you would get a fair bit of agreement, even among the critics.

The thread has a question mark attached to it.
It's valid to argue that he's not....and for the time being you would get a fair bit of agreement, even among the critics.

I have less of an issue if fans get antsy - they can be easily spooked and need constant reassurance. That's fine.

If the club is spooked, then IMO, that's beyond absurd.

I have less of an issue if fans get antsy - they can be easily spooked and need constant reassurance. That's fine.

If the club is spooked, then IMO, that's beyond absurd.

The "old" Carlton would have pulled the trigger by now.

Laj: Team selections are totally out of kilter with the modern game.

The modern game has been happening every year since footy was invented!  What is the modern game?  Depends on the team and opposition of the day.

What if we are in the midst of creating "the modern game" - a different style to everyone else that will win a flag.  IFF we had the full list in form, we are building a pretty good side, and there would probably be a fair bit of excitement and a few more wins on the board.  Our best 22 would still have Cas, Charlie, McKay as forwards with a couple of crumbers to keep the pressure on - Pickett, Garlett, Wright (egs only).

ATM, our worst enemy is our skill - dropped marks, handballs at the feet, fumbling balls in packs etc. and injuries - not making excuses, but we don't have any depth - we need our best 22 out there.

I've ditched the "reset/rebuild" lines for a "recreation", call me pedantic, but have a look at this team I threw together (Mrs Hanwell was being a bit noisey) at 3 am this morning and you should get the true extent of the exodus. As I stated earlier this is a ground up build and by definition will take four to five years.

This team contains one player who chose another team, one player who was under our nose at the Bullants and two who retired last year(*):

Rice*    Gowers    Laidler*
Toohey  Henderson  Lambert*
Buckley Gibbs  Bell
Yarren*  Waite  Betts
Hampson  Kennedy  Garlett
Jacobs  Grigg  Robinson

A little bit depressing at 3.18 am, I pray they know what they are doing because I don't think any other team (except GWS, second on the ladder!!!) could name a similar team. traded, or discarded away. Just look at the goal kickers we have ditched, no wonder we have not crossed the tonne for so long......

Hanwell,

Sauce and Kennedy are very good players, Robbo and Gibbs would be handy around the clinches, and Betts is good goalsneak.

The rest are either on their last legs, or don't offer us anything we don't already have, or are just hacks or one trick ponies. Apart from those players I mentioned above, there's not one other player that I would lose sleep over.

Hanwell,

Sauce and Kennedy are very good players, Robbo and Gibbs would be handy around the clinches, and Betts is good goalsneak.

The rest are either on their last legs, or don't offer us anything we don't already have, or are just hacks or one trick ponies. Apart from those players I mentioned above, there's not one other player that I would lose sleep over.

I think the point Hanwell makes is they seem to be able to hold spots in teams further up the ladder and we had them on our list years earlier, I'll repeat that years earlier! And many currently on our list have shown nothing more or even les than many of those in Hanwell's team.

It's bit hard for fans to buy in when we've offload one bunch of apparently direction-less players, for another bunch of apparently direction-less players!

What you are basically accusing the club of when you make that statement is a form of stasis, we've been going nowhere at a phenomenal rate!

Are we on the rebuild to nowhere?

ATM, our worst enemy is our skill - dropped marks, handballs at the feet, fumbling balls in packs etc. and injuries - not making excuses, but we don't have any depth - we need our best 22 out there.

Our worst enemy ATM is our under age list.
It's also our best asset.

On top of that we have a few injuries to some of our better players.

Add Kruezer, Docherty....... Murphy, Williamson and Pickett and we look a lot better.

We need to play Picket and Garlett in our forward 50.
Our forward line must be the slowest in the comp atm.

We cannot afford to have Silvagni, McKay, Casboult, Curnow, Wright all playing in the forward line.

Surely we'll be able to make a good case for a priority pick at the end of this season !

Which will no doubt be ignored by the AFL.....

A couple of points Paul, Lods has hit the money shot, all these players (not Gibbs,Buckley or Yarran) played games last year, most this year. But also most of them left in the Mick era, Bolton inherited a club who was bereft of mid age leadership. There was no choice but to start again it was inevitable. The ones that really irk me are that Rice didn't choose us, he may well turn out to be a bust but he picked the 'Aints, and we had Lambert under our nose, he has now played in a premiership (as has Grigg!!!). It's no good going down sorry street, because it is what it is, and it aint pretty. But for me it explains why we are here.
By the way Paul, Eddie is so much more than a "good" small forward.....we lost our soul when he left.

Betts was a f... up granted, the rest meh.

Kennedy went as part of the Judd deal. i don't think we can really regret that.

Sauce - hadn't really fired a shot when he left....who knew, he was third in line...! And Warnock was a bust.

Robbo, Garlett - it happens.

Hendo, 2E - would have liked Irish to stay, he took the money and tenure for family security - good on him. Hendo, good riddance.

Waitey - who knew, he was more often than not injured or suspended when in our colours.

Laidler - meh, didn't do much with Sydney either.

Rice or Lambert - the former - neither here nor there. The latter - a fairy tale story good on him but we weren't the only ones to pass....

A couple of points Paul, Lods has hit the money shot, all these players (not Gibbs,Buckley or Yarran) played games last year, most this year. But also most of them left in the Mick era, Bolton inherited a club who was bereft of mid age leadership. There was no choice but to start again it was inevitable. The ones that really irk me are that Rice didn't choose us, he may well turn out to be a bust but he picked the 'Aints, and we had Lambert under our nose, he has now played in a premiership (as has Grigg!!!). It's no good going down sorry street, because it is what it is, and it aint pretty. But for me it explains why we are here.
By the way Paul, Eddie is so much more than a "good" small forward.....we lost our soul when he left.

Hanwell, thanks for the clarification. There is still some conjecture surrounding Betts' departure, and the way it unfolded.

I'll tell you one thing - if Grigg or Lambert were still on our list now, we would be complaining about them much the same as we do about our other players. Guaranteed. They have a premiership medal - good luck to them. Right place right time and all that. But they are ordinary foot soldiers IMO. Anyway, Grigg's contract ends at the end of this season, when I believe he becomes an UFA. Maybe we can lure him back.................not.

Maybe AFL headquarters can quietly intervene to assist us.  Priority picks, soft draw at helpful venues and times, suggestion that player X consider Carlton, just compensation for losing players.   Still beggars belief that Waite,  a central player at North,  resulted in zero compensation.

Maybe AFL headquarters can quietly intervene to assist us.  Priority picks, soft draw at helpful venues and times, suggestion that player X consider Carlton, just compensation for losing players.   Still beggars belief that Waite,  a central player at North,  resulted in zero compensation.

We were well and truly shafted by the system/establishment over Waite. Mind you, God knows what we would have done with it had we gotten anything?

We were well and truly shafted by the system/establishment over Waite. Mind you, God knows what we would have done with it had we gotten anything?

The establishment is the other clubs, they argue very hard not to have priority picks issued when it's not to their own club. If we are guilty of anything, it's probably naivety and weak lobbying.

What are the odds The Aints or Lions get a priority pick at the end of this season?

The establishment is the other clubs, they argue very hard not to have priority picks issued when it's not to their own club. If we are guilty of anything, it's probably naivety and weak lobbying.

What are the odds The Aints or Lions get a priority pick at the end of this season?

Brisbane would be first cab off the rank IMO .....AFL will look after its QLD investment, think we would be next in line...

They can, and will refuse us a PP because we have publicly chosen the rebuild path.
We've deliberately cut our list back starting in 2015.
We played finals two years before that.

It's hard to argue that we're in the position we're in through anything other than our own deliberate decisions and actions.
We've gone backwards to go forward but....
They will say that had we followed a less radical approach we wouldn't have fallen so far.

You get assistance because you're hopeless...you won't get it because you're following a planned strategy to renew your list.

We were well and truly shafted by the system/establishment over Waite. Mind you, God knows what we would have done with it had we gotten anything?

I don't understand why they can't/sholdn't revisit the Waite fiasco now - the AFL was clearly wrong in their determination of Waite's worth....surely they should make good?

The only way we will get a priority pick is if one of our much vaunted youngsters wants out at the end of this season.

They can, and will refuse us a PP because we have publicly chosen the rebuild path.
We've deliberately cut our list back starting in 2015.
We played finals two years before that.

It's hard to argue that we're in the position we're in through anything other than our own deliberate decisions and actions.
We've gone backwards to go forward but....
They will say that had we followed a less radical approach we wouldn't have fallen so far.

You get assistance because you're hopeless...you won't get it because you're following a planned strategy to renew your list.

You might get an argument about being hopeless if Essendon belt us......but I agree our rebuild status is of our own doing and I cant see the AFL giving us charity on that basis.
Also it kind of sells the idea the rebuild has failed if we are asking for charity.....

Bartel on Access All Areas saying that Bolton should not be under any pressure. Said that he hopes the Blues fans are patient and "get their heads around the fact that a rebuild doesn't take 3 years anymore - you pay for past mistakes................" - reckons it's 5-6 years and for players like Charlie to get to 100 games.

Sign up that very sensible man now !

Bartel on Access All Areas saying that Bolton should not be under any pressure. Said that he hopes the Blues fans are patient and "get their heads around the fact that a rebuild doesn't take 3 years anymore - you pay for past mistakes................" - reckons it's 5-6 years and for players like Charlie to get to 100 games.

Sign up that very sensible man now !

There are several pundits I've listened t saying the same thing. I think most of us would accept that a rebuild such as ours takes time but I would think that to see a few signs of progress along the way in terms of improved performance would not be too much to ask? Is progress happening if there are no visible signs of it?

Bartel on Access All Areas saying that Bolton should not be under any pressure. Said that he hopes the Blues fans are patient and "get their heads around the fact that a rebuild doesn't take 3 years anymore - you pay for past mistakes................" - reckons it's 5-6 years and for players like Charlie to get to 100 games.

Sign up that very sensible man now !

I must have missed Geelong on the bottom of the ladder for 5 or 6 years.

There are several pundits I've listened t saying the same thing. I think most of us would accept that a rebuild such as ours takes time but I would think that to see a few signs of progress along the way in terms of improved performance would not be too much to ask? Is progress happening if there are no visible signs of it?

I think the problem with progress and decline is that neither is linear and both can be hard to detect. We finished 11th in 04, won the preseason cup in 05, and I'm sure people thought we were on the up, but clearly we weren't. Tigers finished 13th in 2016 and looked gone for all money. Predicting all this is the stuff of nightmares.

I didn't realise it at the time, but with the benefit of 6 rounds of footy, it seems as though this season is the "recession we had to have", the dip before the rise.

I must have missed Geelong on the bottom of the ladder for 5 or 6 years.

Bolton shouldn't be judged or punished for indiscretions before his time.

Bolton shouldn't be judged or punished for indiscretions before his time.

Bartel says rebuilds take 5 or 6 years, where did he get this from?

It's funny the people here who used to complain about not rebuilding properly and we just want a quick fix are now complaining that Carlton need a quick fix.

So lets bring some facts into the conversation;

1. - We started to rebuild two seasons and 6 games ago.

2. - It is considered that most players don't really find their way until the hit the 60-80 mark.

3. - None of our new players have hit the 50 game mark yet, so realistically they still have a season or two to go before they get it that 60-80 game zone.

4. - We don't have those players who are in the "golden part" (24-28 years old) of their careers. Simpson, Murphy, Daisy and Kruezer are all past it, Doc and Cripps are about to hit it and who ever else is either too young or not good enough to matter.

5 - We have been playing with a big chunk of our first named players out. Put Doc and Williamson in ahead of Mullet and O'Shea and we get and more solid defence as well as better ball use coming off half back. Murphy, Kruezer and Lang through the centre and Pickett up forward would all make this side better. That's not to mention a fit and in form Weitering and Byrne would help significantly. We do not have the depth and or experience to cover these losses. Not to mention McKay, Dow, O'Brien all with 5 or less games. I know the Bulldogs had more in that bracket, but they have a lot of young veterans with 100-150 games experience and the majority of those are their best players.

6 - This year is going to be hard and probably next year too, Carlton is doing something it has never done before, rebuild through the draft. It does take time, it isn't an exact science and we will have some misses with our drafting. See St.Kilda and Melbourne, both were supposed to be better than this yet neither team looks to be ready and they are two years ahead of us. Brisbane started this rebuild the year before us and they are sitting down the bottom too, the difference is their senior players are in that 24-28 bracket, so really they should be better than they are.

7 - SPS has second year blues, we have wrecked Weitering last year and Charlie is carrying a big load by himself, but in contrast Fisher looks like a jet and has just extended his contract, Dow will join the Cripps/Kennedy midfield, making it a nightmare for teams to match up on in the coming years. O'Brien looks to have amazing foot skills and can run all day. Harry looks like he needs breaking in, but in his 4 games is averaging 2 goals an outing.

8 - Our upside is huge, but potential is a dirty word in professional sports, so if you can't stand waiting I would suggest that you follow another sport for a couple of years. Just look at Essendon they went the quick easy path and it will make them look foolish, the media were tipping a top 4 finish, they will be lucky to make the 8 and the mercs they got will ruin the club.

9 - Other than the losses the main thing I've stopped is listening to SEN and watching Fox Footy as I'm sick of the Carlton bashing by guys that really have no idea on how to build a list. You have hypocrite Roos saying we need to score more, yet his Sydney sides often played in 60-55 point games and his Melbourne side couldn't kick any scores for the first couple of seasons. Cornes slags us off without knowing that we have 10 injured players. As I said to a Geelong workmate, take your top 4 b&F winners from last season and a prized recruit, your developing CHB and a promising HBF as well as a small forward with skill and pace plus a willingness to tackle and put them out for a month and see how many games you win, in fact do that to any club and I'm sure they will struggle to win 1. Now look at out scenario again where we were tipped to finish bottom 4, is there any wonder as to why we are struggling?

Bartel says rebuilds take 5 or 6 years, where did he get this from?

I don't know where he pulled that number from.

@raydan.
Top post.

I think the problem with progress and decline is that neither is linear and both can be hard to detect. We finished 11th in 04, won the preseason cup in 05, and I'm sure people thought we were on the up, but clearly we weren't. Tigers finished 13th in 2016 and looked gone for all money. Predicting all this is the stuff of nightmares.

I didn't realise it at the time, but with the benefit of 6 rounds of footy, it seems as though this season is the "recession we had to have", the dip before the rise.

OK so we haven't yet reached that critical "flex" or "click" point yet where we suddenly start showing improvement? The Tigers may be a good example to give us a glimmer of hope as it doesn't seem long ago that we joked about their talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Now, with a cup in their cabinet,  they specialise in just grinding teams down into submission with relentless pressure footy.

OK so we haven't yet reached that critical "flex" or "click" point yet where we suddenly start showing improvement? The Tigers may be a good example to give us a glimmer of hope as it doesn't seem long ago that we joked about their talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Now, with a cup in their cabinet,  they specialise in just grinding teams down into submission with relentless pressure footy.

The future is wildly unpredictable, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do things the right way, or at least a better way.

@ Raydan
Enjoyed reading that post! Makes a lot of sense but calls for a lot of patience. I'm in btw - I don't see any other viable alternative atm.

So, by the looks of it we will be getting Pick 1 or 2 this year again.
Will we go asking the AFL for a priority pick as well?
Would they give it to us, would the media put together s scare campaign?
I think we deserve a PPick!

Why not very publicly pose the question right now, conduct the debate in the media, and get public opinion to the point that apples some pressure to the AFL.

Why not very publicly pose the question right now, conduct the debate in the media, and get public opinion to the point that apples some pressure to the AFL.

You mean get the supporters of other teams to back us?  Might be a bridge to far.

It's funny the people here who used to complain about not rebuilding properly and we just want a quick fix are now complaining that Carlton need a quick fix.

So lets bring some facts into the conversation;

1. - We started to rebuild two seasons and 6 games ago.

2. - It is considered that most players don't really find their way until the hit the 60-80 mark.

3. - None of our new players have hit the 50 game mark yet, so realistically they still have a season or two to go before they get it that 60-80 game zone.

4. - We don't have those players who are in the "golden part" (24-28 years old) of their careers. Simpson, Murphy, Daisy and Kruezer are all past it, Doc and Cripps are about to hit it and who ever else is either too young or not good enough to matter.

5 - We have been playing with a big chunk of our first named players out. Put Doc and Williamson in ahead of Mullet and O'Shea and we get and more solid defence as well as better ball use coming off half back. Murphy, Kruezer and Lang through the centre and Pickett up forward would all make this side better. That's not to mention a fit and in form Weitering and Byrne would help significantly. We do not have the depth and or experience to cover these losses. Not to mention McKay, Dow, O'Brien all with 5 or less games. I know the Bulldogs had more in that bracket, but they have a lot of young veterans with 100-150 games experience and the majority of those are their best players.

6 - This year is going to be hard and probably next year too, Carlton is doing something it has never done before, rebuild through the draft. It does take time, it isn't an exact science and we will have some misses with our drafting. See St.Kilda and Melbourne, both were supposed to be better than this yet neither team looks to be ready and they are two years ahead of us. Brisbane started this rebuild the year before us and they are sitting down the bottom too, the difference is their senior players are in that 24-28 bracket, so really they should be better than they are.

7 - SPS has second year blues, we have wrecked Weitering last year and Charlie is carrying a big load by himself, but in contrast Fisher looks like a jet and has just extended his contract, Dow will join the Cripps/Kennedy midfield, making it a nightmare for teams to match up on in the coming years. O'Brien looks to have amazing foot skills and can run all day. Harry looks like he needs breaking in, but in his 4 games is averaging 2 goals an outing.

8 - Our upside is huge, but potential is a dirty word in professional sports, so if you can't stand waiting I would suggest that you follow another sport for a couple of years. Just look at Essendon they went the quick easy path and it will make them look foolish, the media were tipping a top 4 finish, they will be lucky to make the 8 and the mercs they got will ruin the club.

9 - Other than the losses the main thing I've stopped is listening to SEN and watching Fox Footy as I'm sick of the Carlton bashing by guys that really have no idea on how to build a list. You have hypocrite Roos saying we need to score more, yet his Sydney sides often played in 60-55 point games and his Melbourne side couldn't kick any scores for the first couple of seasons. Cornes slags us off without knowing that we have 10 injured players. As I said to a Geelong workmate, take your top 4 b&F winners from last season and a prized recruit, your developing CHB and a promising HBF as well as a small forward with skill and pace plus a willingness to tackle and put them out for a month and see how many games you win, in fact do that to any club and I'm sure they will struggle to win 1. Now look at out scenario again where we were tipped to finish bottom 4, is there any wonder as to why we are struggling?

Dow and Kennedy are unproven and Byrne is a turnover merchant who doesnt defend that well.....Dows kicking is questionable and Kennedys fitness the same....
Charlie Curnow... tick
Lang could be handy but isnt a proven midfielder yet and no Robbie Gray as a half forward either.
Weitering...who knows?..he is broken and no guarantee to be fixed, he wants it bruise free and will need to harden up to make it...
Docherty and Williamson...agree big losses, both are top players, I really rate Williamson....usually we pick little schoolboys but he is a good size and has a go.
Pickett....very promising but needs a better team to create more opportunities for him....
SPS...see Chris Yarran.....could go either way real talent but real lazy too..
Obrien....nice kick but needs a bigger stronger fram to impact....unproven...

We play a schoolboy brand of football and rely totally on one player do the hard bruising work ie Cripps, how long does he have before he breaks or heads back to WA?
We are seen as a soft team who lack physicality and are easily intimidated, we lack leadership and once again rely on one player to provide it.......deja vu story with Judd and Cripps IMO..

Our coach lacks experience, woeful game day coach who cant think on his feet and continues to have trouble enabling a game plan, basic matchups he cant seem to visualise and both he and the MC have trouble even picking a team that can match the opposition in terms of size and pace.
Bolton would pick Paddy Mills to play on Lebron James if he was a basketball coach.....its that bad..

Womens team.....a mess

VFL team...ditto, uncompetitive most weeks and its time to try a stand alone team and why because the NB"s alliance hasnt worked and  thats why.....

We need a Independent review on the whole clubs operation before we fall off the cliff......1 win in the past 15 games for a team in the 3rd year of a rebuild?.....not goood enough.
Dont need to sack Bolton but get him some help because he needs it...

SOS can sit back and let Bolton cop the heat but the spotlight is on him too......his work cant be judged fully because kids take time and I appreciate  that but the Mullets, Oshea's Lambs etc etc can be judged and we need to start looking at the balance of the list and what we are missing and see if he is hitting or missing the mark in those area's.

You have a brand name and integrity of the club to protect even when you are rebuilding and supporters/fans are entitled to question progress....you tell me 5-6 years and thats fine but I am still entitled to judge progress and want answers to obvious questions...not cliched claptrap answers and being told its a rebuild so no questions allowed..Please....and I dont want to hear from bananas like Rhys Jones about fickle supporters either...Its been 15-20 years of nothing Rhys ...Denis Banks must have hit you harder than I thought...

 :o ??? 8) :D

You mean get the supporters of other teams to back us?  Might be a bridge to far.

Public opinion just has to be a set of media commentators, that is all it takes.

I think you could easily get a bunch of in the media BB sympathisers like Hodge, Gibson, Parkin, etc., etc. and next thing you know it'll be on the agenda.

Dow and Kennedy are unproven and Byrne is a turnover merchant who doesnt defend that well.....Dows kicking is questionable and Kennedys fitness the same....
Charlie Curnow... tick
Lang could be handy but isnt a proven midfielder yet and no Robbie Gray as a half forward either.
Weitering...who knows?..he is broken and no guarantee to be fixed, he wants it bruise free and will need to harden up to make it...
Docherty and Williamson...agree big losses, both are top players, I really rate Williamson....usually we pick little schoolboys but he is a good size and has a go.
Pickett....very promising but needs a better team to create more opportunities for him....
SPS...see Chris Yarran.....could go either way real talent but real lazy too..
Obrien....nice kick but needs a bigger stronger fram to impact....unproven...

"Dow and Kennedy are unproven" Yes, you get that with young players, hence the need to be patient.

"Byrne tries to do too much" Again a player with less than 25 game under his belt, has good size and speed and does kick a long ball but needs time and a consistent go at it before you can really gauge his game.

"Lang could be handy but isnt a proven midfielder yet" Again a young player with not many game under his belt so time is needed.

"Weitering...who knows?..he is broken and no guarantee to be fixed" No guarantee he won't be fixed either. Rance was ordinary for his first 4-5 seasons. It would have been interesting to see if we hadn't of moved him forward, to where he'd be now. Again still only young and is another season and a half away from having enough experience.

"Pickett....very promising but needs a better team to create more opportunities for him" Again with time he will get a better team around him. Pickett is far from a finished product with less than 15 games under his belt. 2-3 seasons.

"SPS...see Chris Yarran.....could go either way real talent but real lazy too.." I agree here to a point, he needs to be dropped and told to go hunt the ball in the 2s get the 25 possessions for a couple of weeks then bring him back.

"Obrien....nice kick but needs a bigger stronger frame to impact....unproven" Again game 3 in his career, he is 3-4 seasons away from having a real impact.

Looking at your replies EB, I wonder if you understand building through a draft. Your comments of unproven are correct but of course they are unproven as they have only just been drafted. You do draft school bpys

Dangerfield, showed glimpses during his first 5 seasons but he was never the league start that he is now. Martin, same deal, it took him several years to get his head straight and attitude right. Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Josh Kennedy, Tom Mitchell, Rory Sloane, Luke Parker....... all took 4-5 seasons plus to get their games right now AFL stars.

I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons. 

"Dows kicking is questionable and Kennedys fitness the same...." Could not disagree more with Dows kicking, his kicking when he's not tired is outstanding and his hands are immaculate, he is not AFL fit but why would he be? Kennedy shouldn't be playing he looks hampered by the ankle. He needs a few weeks off to get right. The game against Richmond, before he hurt his ankle I'd say he was almost best on ground for a quarter and a half. I agree he needs fitness, something that doesn't come easy with an ankle injury.

BTW Charlie is no where near a tick yet, for a tick he needs to grab the marks and kick the easy goals that he missed, but again with a couple more seasons in the gym and kicking practise I'm sure he'll get there.

As for your comment about Mills on LBJ, I reckon Mills would have him, cause he's an Aussie ;)

Bolton is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, he has very little to choose from through injury, so SPS can't get dropped, Plowman can have games off to recover and Marchbank was bought back too early, as he looked underdone. The cupboard is bare of capable bodies so we need to be patient.

I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons.

I agree.

There was never any time-line issued by BB or other footy staff that I know of, it was always it will take as long as it takes to get 100 games into the kids. I know marketing and membership people wanted a date, but that is fanciful.

I think the main gripe supporters have at the moment is not the status of the rebuild, but the lost confidence from the flip flop approach we seem to have taken so far this year.

If they had started 2018 with the same game plan and defensive mindset as last year, scrapped a win or two then went to the overboard attacking option, a lot of this discussion wouldn't be taking place. I could easily have imagined a further 2 goal improvement on last season, and that would have got us some more wins in 2018, but maybe that is not what the club wants!

I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons. 

I guess the problem is we've put the ingredients in and started to heat them up...we're just not getting any of those sweet cooking smells.

The rebuild hasn't 'failed' but what folks are waiting to see is some signs of progress.
We're not seeing that, and yes injuries and the loss of experienced players is a big contributor to that situation.

When we are in the doldrums, as we are now, it's only natural that people start to focus on the 'little' picture (team selections, match tactics, player skills and development) because that "big picture, golden age" is a long way in the future...and there are many rivers to cross.

Perhaps our problem is as LP suggests, we tried to get ahead ourselves by moving forward too quickly? I see the sense of continuing our defensive game for a bit longer to allow for a bit more consolidation. That, plus injuries certainly haven't helped. I'm still anxious though.

"Dow and Kennedy are unproven" Yes, you get that with young players, hence the need to be patient.

"Byrne tries to do too much" Again a player with less than 25 game under his belt, has good size and speed and does kick a long ball but needs time and a consistent go at it before you can really gauge his game.

"Lang could be handy but isnt a proven midfielder yet" Again a young player with not many game under his belt so time is needed.

"Weitering...who knows?..he is broken and no guarantee to be fixed" No guarantee he won't be fixed either. Rance was ordinary for his first 4-5 seasons. It would have been interesting to see if we hadn't of moved him forward, to where he'd be now. Again still only young and is another season and a half away from having enough experience.

"Pickett....very promising but needs a better team to create more opportunities for him" Again with time he will get a better team around him. Pickett is far from a finished product with less than 15 games under his belt. 2-3 seasons.

"SPS...see Chris Yarran.....could go either way real talent but real lazy too.." I agree here to a point, he needs to be dropped and told to go hunt the ball in the 2s get the 25 possessions for a couple of weeks then bring him back.

"Obrien....nice kick but needs a bigger stronger frame to impact....unproven" Again game 3 in his career, he is 3-4 seasons away from having a real impact.

Looking at your replies EB, I wonder if you understand building through a draft. Your comments of unproven are correct but of course they are unproven as they have only just been drafted. You do draft school bpys

Dangerfield, showed glimpses during his first 5 seasons but he was never the league start that he is now. Martin, same deal, it took him several years to get his head straight and attitude right. Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Josh Kennedy, Tom Mitchell, Rory Sloane, Luke Parker....... all took 4-5 seasons plus to get their games right now AFL stars.

I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons. 

"Dows kicking is questionable and Kennedys fitness the same...." Could not disagree more with Dows kicking, his kicking when he's not tired is outstanding and his hands are immaculate, he is not AFL fit but why would he be? Kennedy shouldn't be playing he looks hampered by the ankle. He needs a few weeks off to get right. The game against Richmond, before he hurt his ankle I'd say he was almost best on ground for a quarter and a half. I agree he needs fitness, something that doesn't come easy with an ankle injury.

BTW Charlie is no where near a tick yet, for a tick he needs to grab the marks and kick the easy goals that he missed, but again with a couple more seasons in the gym and kicking practise I'm sure he'll get there.

As for your comment about Mills on LBJ, I reckon Mills would have him, cause he's an Aussie ;)

Bolton is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, he has very little to choose from through injury, so SPS can't get dropped, Plowman can have games off to recover and Marchbank was bought back too early, as he looked underdone. The cupboard is bare of capable bodies so we need to be patient.

Dows kicking is unreliable and was at TAC level.......he has averaged 6 kicks a game, he must get tired real quick, if he gets 12 kicks a game I'd expect him to be asleep at half time... :D

re: Weitering...Rance didnt run around trying to avoid contact or have the coach trying to hide him on the field and find a soft opponent for him either.

Schoolboys yep, we draft a lot of schoolboys ours tend to look like year 9's playing the other teams year 12's thats part of the problem......

Deckchairs, Injuries, sure we have injuries but so do other clubs, Bulldogs have as many of us and had a lot of kids playing too and in important positions..

42 players later its an Ark that SOS and Bolton built thats now turned into a Titanic.... 1 win in 15 for a 3rd year of a rebuild, are you happy with that?

Notice you didnt want to comment on Boltons coaching attributes, game plans or lack of  or SOS's list management?......care to share your thoughts on whats happening in the coaches box and match selection etc...

re: Weitering...Rance didnt run around trying to avoid contact or have the coach trying to hide him on the field and find a soft opponent for him either.

That's not quite true though is it EB1.

My Nthmond friends tell me Rance's early career was actually quite like the way Liam Jones plays at the moment, A-Grade chook runner trying to fly high and spoil marks everywhere was one description I got! He came good towards the end of his 3rd year, and they put that down to the arrival of Martin, Grigg and Houli that year or before, because they pushed back hard to clean up Rance's spoils.

What Nthmond didn't do, was waste trying to turn the kid into a key forward! ;)

My big question over our club this year is the same as Deags, when we switched to attack we deserted the defenders and it made them look very ordinary, we didn't have the players coming off the HBF or Wing pushing back very hard at all! We still don't, watch the weekends game and closely monitor SPS, Marchbank, Dow and Simmo. It's not about top speed, because they seem to run half speed on the return journey. It leaves us looking outnumbered everywhere!

In fairness to Simmo, he must be full up to pussies bow with it, he looks tired and it's only 25% of the way through the season! But that doesn't mean he gets a free pass to butcher the football, he's got to be much better than the kids, not just the equal of them!

That's not quite true though is it EB1.

My Nthmond friends tell me Rance's early career was actually quite like the way Liam Jones plays at the moment, A-Grade chook runner trying to fly high and spoil marks everywhere was one description I got! He came good towards the end of his 3rd year, and they put that down to the arrival of Martin, Grigg and Houli that year or before, because they pushed back hard to clean up Rance's spoils.

What Nthmond didn't do, was waste trying to turn the kid into a key forward! ;)

My big question over our club this year is the same as Deags, when we switched to attack we deserted the defenders and it made them look very ordinary, we didn't have the players coming off the HBF or Wing pushing back very hard at all! We still don't, watch the weekends game and closely monitor SPS, Marchbank, Dow and Simmo. It's not about top speed, because they seem to run half speed on the return journey. It leaves us looking outnumbered everywhere!

LP ..Rance was inconsistent and a turnover merchant early......my point is JW has become timid, hesitant and doesnt want physical contact, he is also trying to disguise it by
not arriving at contests on time usually late or trying to sneak away from where the action is, his last game there was this half ar$ed spoiling attempt in the back pocket where he arrived late and nowhere near the ball...the kid is shell shocked and needs a major intervention....

LP ..Rance was inconsistent and a turnover merchant early......my point is JW has become timid, hesitant and doesnt want physical contact, he is also trying to disguise it by
not arriving at contests on time usually late or trying to sneak away from where the action is, his last game there was this half ar$ed spoiling attempt in the back pocket where he arrived late and nowhere near the ball...the kid is shell shocked and needs a major intervention....

I would definitely like to see Weiters rehabilitated in the NBs for a few weeks under some close guidance from say ASOS. He cost us too much to not be looking after his development a lot more closely.

I would definitely like to see Weiters rehabilitated in the NBs for a few weeks under some close guidance from say ASOS. He cost us too much to not be looking after his development a lot more closely.

Agree....Needs playing where he can get used to contact, I'd ruck him for parts of games in his rehab in the NB's and build his confidence .

LP ..Rance was inconsistent and a turnover merchant early......my point is JW has become timid, hesitant and doesnt want physical contact, he is also trying to disguise it by
not arriving at contests on time usually late or trying to sneak away from where the action is, his last game there was this half ar$ed spoiling attempt in the back pocket where he arrived late and nowhere near the ball...the kid is shell shocked and needs a major intervention....

I don't agree EB1, I've seen plenty of that happening this season and it's happened to Jones, Plowman and Marchbank as well. But Jones and Weitering have copped the brunt of it because they were the stay at home defenders. They get caught outnumbered and then get a clanger stat because if they win the footy they are disposing of it under pressure.

As for that event you refer to against Norp, you know full well Weitering was stuck between two KPFs and had to move late to get to a contest, by then he was already carrying his 2nd corkie for the match! Even with corkies he still kicked it better than any of our other defenders.

I feel you've got a bee in your bonnet about this kid and are looking for things to cook him over fair or otherwise! Put McKay under the same blow torch, he's the same age, been at the club the same amount of time and offered nothing yet when compared to Weitering's record!

As for how the club has manages the kids, McKay or Charlie break a fingernail and get a week off, Weitering gets to play through his injuries because it builds character! Explain how that works for me?

@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.

@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.

You do remember Weitering's first season don't you, or his finish to last season, what is McKay's equivalent?

There is no basis for condemning a 20 year old who led the AFL Intercept marking as an 18 year old.  Have a look at Lever version 2018, chocolates to boiled lollies, nobody is pulling the pin on him as quickly as Carlton fans seem to want to cook Weitering! It's ludicrous, if Weitering were at Geelong or Dawkthorn he probably wouldn't have played a senior game yet!

In the meantime we see fans heartily defending Simmo as he turns over another kick after a brave intercept and a sprint forward! That is excruciating!

@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.

Cookie...Thats a good word on how to describe his mindset.....excruciating, he doesnt want to be out there, I'd be concerned about his long term future and if the game is right for him....

You do remember Weitering's first season don't you, or his finish to last season, what is McKay's equivalent?

There is no basis for condemning a 20 year old who lead the AFL Intercept marking as an 18 year old.  Have a look at Lever version 2018, chocolates to boiled lollies, nobody is pulling the pin on him as quickly as Carlton fans seem to want to cook Weitering!

Agree on his first season then he got hit in the shoulder and hasnt been the same since....dont want to cook him at all, if he was my son I'd be real worried about his enjoyment of the game.
The big bodies worry him and its like being hit by a fast bowler....he looks like Jonathan Trott after Mitch Johnson shook him up and Trott quit the game....

@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.

How much of that though is due to the pressure to perform with injuries in his first few seasons.
We don't know for sure but "I'll stand, kicking to death" if he wasn't asked to keep going despite being injured.
We broke him.
Like we broke Murphy years ago. It's a credit to him to reach the level he did....and yes, it's part of being an AFL player to cope with that....but successful teams don't leave their young-úns to deal with that without some management and protection.

I believe that Jones' revelation in defence began Weiter's demise, as they were basically the same player. The longer Jones stays there, then what do we do with Weiters? We cant have two loose intercept marking players. At this stage Jones has him covered, which raises the inevitable elephant in the room question, do we trade him? He has probably the best currency on the list, there will be collateral damage along the path to sustainable success, he would be a first round pick no worries...

I believe that Jones' revelation in defence began Weiter's demise, as they were basically the same player. The longer Jones stays there, then what do we do with Weiters? We cant have two loose intercept marking players. At this stage Jones has him covered, which raises the inevitable elephant in the room question, do we trade him? He has probably the best currency on the list, there will be collateral damage along the path to sustainable success, he would be a first round pick no worries...

I don't know Hanwell, I think it's the Plowman, Simmo, Marchbank, Dow, SPS types at the moment that are the big problem.

They are off up the field on the attack, but just don't get back consistently enough to defend when they turn it over. I can forgive the kids, sometimes the reason they fail to get back is they are not quite sure of where to go, or they are easily taken out of the play by heavier opponents.

But I cannot cut Plowman, Simmo and Marchbank the same level slack!

Kerridge was good at the weekend, full field running, working hard both ways making the numbers. Along with Daisy and Wright they really set a good example. Daisy has been a revelation the last few weeks, no wonder he remains, he must be close to the first picked!

We are missing Docherty big time, put him at the feet of Jones and Weitering and you get a vastly different result!

You do remember Weitering's first season don't you, or his finish to last season, what is McKay's equivalent?

There is no basis for condemning a 20 year old who led the AFL Intercept marking as an 18 year old.  Have a look at Lever version 2018, chocolates to boiled lollies, nobody is pulling the pin on him as quickly as Carlton fans seem to want to cook Weitering! It's ludicrous, if Weitering were at Geelong or Dawkthorn he probably wouldn't have played a senior game yet!

In the meantime we see fans heartily defending Simmo as he turns over another kick after a brave intercept and a sprint forward! That is excruciating!

Far from attacking him I am concerned that we do the right thing by him and that he goes on to be successful. We can't be in denial with him. Somethjng is wrong and he needs some help and I want to see him get it. As for Simmo, he is nearing the end of his career after many years of selfless service not much of it in the best of circumstances, a completely different situation. And he still shows plenty of spirit despite all the crap years!

Dows kicking is unreliable and was at TAC level.......he has averaged 6 kicks a game, he must get tired real quick, if he gets 12 kicks a game I'd expect him to be asleep at half time... :D

re: Weitering...Rance didnt run around trying to avoid contact or have the coach trying to hide him on the field and find a soft opponent for him either.

Schoolboys yep, we draft a lot of schoolboys ours tend to look like year 9's playing the other teams year 12's thats part of the problem......

Deckchairs, Injuries, sure we have injuries but so do other clubs, Bulldogs have as many of us and had a lot of kids playing too and in important positions..

42 players later its an Ark that SOS and Bolton built thats now turned into a Titanic.... 1 win in 15 for a 3rd year of a rebuild, are you happy with that?

Notice you didnt want to comment on Boltons coaching attributes, game plans or lack of  or SOS's list management?......care to share your thoughts on whats happening in the coaches box and match selection etc...

Rance doesn't have an opponent most games and when he does he's shown up quite often. Grimes and Astbury take the KP forwards and Rance just zones off the majority of the times. Weitering is void of all confidence which is Bolton's doing. He needs time in the twos after his injury to regain his form.

I didn't watch Dow at TAC level, but what I've seen from him at AFL level is a pretty decent kick, some have been superb. So I don't care what he used to be like, all I'm concerned about is what I see now.

So let's have a look at our drafting;

Weitering - hardly looking like a grade 9, Harry McKay bottom age has grow 5+ cms since being drafted and while he was slight at the time of the draft he's not that now. Charlie Curnow, not at all looking like a grade 9, Cunningham, and average looking 18 yo when drafted who has an AFL physique now. Jack again hardly a light weight.

Samo - Typical indigenous frame when drafted and has filled a bit, Fisher - Little, light but has been a revelation this year 27 quality possies against Bulldogs, MacReadie, again tall lanky and will fill out, Poulson little and probably most suits your description. Williamson tall flanker with real size, has grown a couple of cms from reports so could be a pinch hit KP in some circumstances. Kerr KP forward never looked like a grade 9

Dow - Strong hips and big thighs, face may look young but body from waist down not at all. O'Brien - small frame and yes looks young, de Koning again not a developed torso but strong hip and things. Schumacher - 190cms and average frame and last drafted was Garlett who is a typical indigenous framed 21 year old.

I'll give you Poulson, Fisher and O'Brien as younger body types, but what do you expect? These are young 17/18 boys, they are going to have skinny arms and thin chests. So 3 young frames out of 16, hardly a disaster.

Coming into last week Carlton had the most games lost for the season due to injuries, and as I said we don't have the depth to cover them. You cannot possibly compare our list to theirs, they won a flag two seasons ago so and they haven't lost every player since then. We have been out of the finished out of the eight now for the past 7 years including this year hardly apple with apples.

List management we have 15 players on the list under the age of 25 who were taken in the top 25, or roughly one third, how has SOS failed at his task. Please tell me which one won't make 100 games and be willing to put your house on it. I'm sure there will be some but no one knows yet because they are still developing.

Coaching, Bolton does some things well others not so, be he has succeeded at every other level he's coached at, and is starting from a long way back. So like the players I'm willing to support my club and the decisions they have made as we don't know if they will work yet.

Match selection - So who would you have chosen from the players available last week that would have made a difference, maybe Graham or Lamb who have been tried and found wanting many times. Or should have we rushed Lang in? Maybe our saviour lies in Kerr, de Koning or Schumacher or let's pick a rookie for their first game to really tip the scales in our favour. ::) Match committee had no where to turn due to the players missing.

Do I like losing, no I hate it! Am I filthy about it, yes at the time but when I wake up the next day and rationally think about it, I can see why we struggle. This is the first time Carlton has invested properly in the draft, has traded for extra picks and for young players who were drafted high and for reasons like Ablett coming back, wanting to come home or a lack of opportunity we have got them cheap. We haven't mortgaged the club for one player, see Judd or gone after the messiah coach see Pagan / Malthouse. We are building a platform with a young in-experienced coach and we need to get games into our players to give them experience which they are getting.

During Boltons tenure we have beaten, Hawthorn, Sydney, GWS, Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong so he must be doing this right occasionally, or would it be that young sides are inconsistent and take time to come together?     

Rance doesn't have an opponent most games and when he does he's shown up quite often. Grimes and Astbury take the KP forwards and Rance just zones off the majority of the times. Weitering is void of all confidence which is Bolton's doing. He needs time in the twos after his injury to regain his form.

I didn't watch Dow at TAC level, but what I've seen from him at AFL level is a pretty decent kick, some have been superb. So I don't care what he used to be like, all I'm concerned about is what I see now.

So let's have a look at our drafting;

Weitering - hardly looking like a grade 9, Harry McKay bottom age has grow 5+ cms since being drafted and while he was slight at the time of the draft he's not that now. Charlie Curnow, not at all looking like a grade 9, Cunningham, and average looking 18 yo when drafted who has an AFL physique now. Jack again hardly a light weight.

Samo - Typical indigenous frame when drafted and has filled a bit, Fisher - Little, light but has been a revelation this year 27 quality possies against Bulldogs, MacReadie, again tall lanky and will fill out, Poulson little and probably most suits your description. Williamson tall flanker with real size, has grown a couple of cms from reports so could be a pinch hit KP in some circumstances. Kerr KP forward never looked like a grade 9

Dow - Strong hips and big thighs, face may look young but body from waist down not at all. O'Brien - small frame and yes looks young, de Koning again not a developed torso but strong hip and things. Schumacher - 190cms and average frame and last drafted was Garlett who is a typical indigenous framed 21 year old.

I'll give you Poulson, Fisher and O'Brien as younger body types, but what do you expect? These are young 17/18 boys, they are going to have skinny arms and thin chests. So 3 young frames out of 16, hardly a disaster.

Coming into last week Carlton had the most games lost for the season due to injuries, and as I said we don't have the depth to cover them. You cannot possibly compare our list to theirs, they won a flag two seasons ago so and they haven't lost every player since then. We have been out of the finished out of the eight now for the past 7 years including this year hardly apple with apples.

List management we have 15 players on the list under the age of 25 who were taken in the top 25, or roughly one third, how has SOS failed at his task. Please tell me which one won't make 100 games and be willing to put your house on it. I'm sure there will be some but no one knows yet because they are still developing.

Coaching, Bolton does some things well others not so, be he has succeeded at every other level he's coached at, and is starting from a long way back. So like the players I'm willing to support my club and the decisions they have made as we don't know if they will work yet.

Match selection - So who would you have chosen from the players available last week that would have made a difference, maybe Graham or Lamb who have been tried and found wanting many times. Or should have we rushed Lang in? Maybe our saviour lies in Kerr, de Koning or Schumacher or let's pick a rookie for their first game to really tip the scales in our favour. ::) Match committee had no where to turn due to the players missing.

Do I like losing, no I hate it! Am I filthy about it, yes at the time but when I wake up the next day and rationally think about it, I can see why we struggle. This is the first time Carlton has invested properly in the draft, has traded for extra picks and for young players who were drafted high and for reasons like Ablett coming back, wanting to come home or a lack of opportunity we have got them cheap. We haven't mortgaged the club for one player, see Judd or gone after the messiah coach see Pagan / Malthouse. We are building a platform with a young in-experienced coach and we need to get games into our players to give them experience which they are getting.

During Boltons tenure we have beaten, Hawthorn, Sydney, GWS, Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong so he must be doing this right occasionally, or would it be that young sides are inconsistent and take time to come together?    

And therein lies the issue that many are speaking of, Raydan old son. We all supported 100% what was going on years one and two... but this year, which is the major concern being articulated by folks here, we seem to have gone backwards at a rate of knots. Even if we were treading water compared to last year and 2016, we'd see every point you make... but... our skills seem to have deteriorate this year, along with mongrel endeavour. Cripps, Daisy and ZF seem to be the only 3 who've improved on last year...

Yes, only round 6, and things can turn around quickly. We'll know a lot more soon enough and like many I hope the present signs are only growing pains ** cough cough**  ;) :)

Coaching, Bolton does some things well others not so, be he has succeeded at every other level he's coached at, and is starting from a long way back. So like the players I'm willing to support my club and the decisions they have made as we don't know if they will work yet.

Match selection - So who would you have chosen from the players available last week that would have made a difference, maybe Graham or Lamb who have been tried and found wanting many times. Or should have we rushed Lang in? Maybe our saviour lies in Kerr, de Koning or Schumacher or let's pick a rookie for their first game to really tip the scales in our favour. ::) Match committee had no where to turn due to the players missing.

I would have chosen a smaller team to play vs the Bulldogs who are lightning quick and go easy on talls for one thing.....Cunningham was a prime example of a player
who was suited to play a defensive role, he has pace and can play a variety of positions, it was a no brainer IMO.
Like when he picked Polson to play when we lost a tall, Polson having zero form and contributed nothing two weeks in row,
Your super coach picked 2 x busted players who were not fit and in Kennedys case couldnt even walk quickly much less run...thats not even dumb that desperation and stupidity...
Would have played Macreadie and Shaw...the latter has 100 games experience and could have played on Bontempelli who we just allowed to run around all day on his own,
whats his next trick let Matt Crouch get 40 plus possies next week by letting him run around free too...or maybe he might match OShea up on Eddie and let him kick half a dozen and tell us it was all about synergy and thats not what we stand for. I guess playing Cripps for 100 mins on the ball might cover those bases.....

What I wont stand for is a coaching team who cant get the basics right much less anything too complicated.......

Juddy very measured and honest about Carlton on FC tonight. Could listen to the great man speak all day, articulate, intelligent, glad to have him involved in our club at board level.

Coaching, Bolton does some things well others not so, be he has succeeded at every other level he's coached at, and is starting from a long way back. So like the players I'm willing to support my club and the decisions they have made as we don't know if they will work yet.

Match selection - So who would you have chosen from the players available last week that would have made a difference, maybe Graham or Lamb who have been tried and found wanting many times. Or should have we rushed Lang in? Maybe our saviour lies in Kerr, de Koning or Schumacher or let's pick a rookie for their first game to really tip the scales in our favour. ::) Match committee had no where to turn due to the players missing.

I would have chosen a smaller team to play vs the Bulldogs who are lightning quick and go easy on talls for one thing.....Cunningham was a prime example of a player
who was suited to play a defensive role, he has pace and can play a variety of positions, it was a no brainer IMO.
Like when he picked Polson to play when we lost a tall, Polson having zero form and contributed nothing two weeks in row,
Your super coach picked 2 x busted players who were not fit and in Kennedys case couldnt even walk quickly much less run...thats not even dumb that desperation and stupidity...
Would have played Macreadie and Shaw...the latter has 100 games experience and could have played on Bontempelli who we just allowed to run around all day on his own,
whats his next trick let Matt Crouch get 40 plus possies next week by letting him run around free too...or maybe he might match OShea up on Eddie and let him kick half a dozen and tell us it was all about synergy and thats not what we stand for. I guess playing Cripps for 100 mins on the ball might cover those bases.....

What I wont stand for is a coaching team who cant get the basics right much less anything too complicated.......

Yep.

Coaching, Bolton does some things well others not so, be he has succeeded at every other level he's coached at, and is starting from a long way back. So like the players I'm willing to support my club and the decisions they have made as we don't know if they will work yet.

Match selection - So who would you have chosen from the players available last week that would have made a difference, maybe Graham or Lamb who have been tried and found wanting many times. Or should have we rushed Lang in? Maybe our saviour lies in Kerr, de Koning or Schumacher or let's pick a rookie for their first game to really tip the scales in our favour. ::) Match committee had no where to turn due to the players missing.

I would have chosen a smaller team to play vs the Bulldogs who are lightning quick and go easy on talls for one thing.....Cunningham was a prime example of a player
who was suited to play a defensive role, he has pace and can play a variety of positions, it was a no brainer IMO.
Like when he picked Polson to play when we lost a tall, Polson having zero form and contributed nothing two weeks in row,
Your super coach picked 2 x busted players who were not fit and in Kennedys case couldnt even walk quickly much less run...thats not even dumb that desperation and stupidity...
Would have played Macreadie and Shaw...the latter has 100 games experience and could have played on Bontempelli who we just allowed to run around all day on his own,
whats his next trick let Matt Crouch get 40 plus possies next week by letting him run around free too...or maybe he might match OShea up on Eddie and let him kick half a dozen and tell us it was all about synergy and thats not what we stand for. I guess playing Cripps for 100 mins on the ball might cover those bases.....

What I wont stand for is a coaching team who cant get the basics right much less anything too complicated.......

Which of these smaller players who are lightning quick would have you included? Cunningham was omitted for not being defensive when playing HB, Garlett omitted for not playing well. You say you would have played MacReadie and who would you get rid of for him? Rowe, Jones, Plowman or Marchbank?

Shaw could not get a game last season at Gold Coast and was delisted, but he's the answer on Bontempelli?

It's fine to sit back after a crap game and say I would have done this or that, and looking at your suggestions I doubt if they would have helped.

I never said Bolton is a super coach, but thanks for taking the conversation that way ::) But again while they may have had more 10 gamers in their side have a look at their important players,

Suckling 147, Wallis 109, Bontempelli 91, Dalhaus 143, Hunter 89, Wood 131, Macrea 105, McLean 44, Daniel 59, Johannisen 90, Jong 56. That 11 out of their 22 who were their prime ball movers all at or approaching that 60-80 game mark. When your teams quality players are in this zone then you have a really good foundation.

You can't coach experience and our kids coming through have talent they just need the games under their belt. 

I'm a little confused about the argument that we should wait until some of these kids make it to 50+ games before we make a firm judgement about them.


... why then have we made judgements and let go so many players that haven't managed that number.

Which of these smaller players who are lightning quick would have you included? Cunningham was omitted for not being defensive when playing HB, Garlett omitted for not playing well. You say you would have played MacReadie and who would you get rid of for him? Rowe, Jones, Plowman or Marchbank?

Shaw could not get a game last season at Gold Coast and was delisted, but he's the answer on Bontempelli?

It's fine to sit back after a crap game and say I would have done this or that, and looking at your suggestions I doubt if they would have helped.

If you read the pre-game thread half of the forum questioned the selections and why we dropped two small pressure forwards and replaced them with an inside midfielder and another half back flanker.

Just like the suns game when we replaced Kreuzer with a small, that left Casboult in the ruck.

Terrible selections that cost us both games before they even began.

I guess we could settle this once and for all by hosting a "Talking Tactics" session between Bolton and forum members. I give each member 5 minutes before they get shot down in flames.

It's nonsense to think that the MC isn't cognisant of the issues being discussed here wrt team selections. They won't always get it right, and I think there are many occasions when selections are a gamble. You don't have to agree or like their decisions, but they have reasons behind who's in and out, which we may not even know exist.

Our skill errors, poor decision making, youth, and lack of leadership are what kill us, and all the team selection theory in the world can't save you from that.

I guess we could settle this once and for all by hosting a "Talking Tactics" session between Bolton and forum members. I give each member 5 minutes before they get shot down in flames.

The Gold Coast shot us down in flames.

The Gold Coast shot us down in flames.

I'm quite aware of what happened in the various games this season.

I'm a little confused about the argument that we should wait until some of these kids make it to 50+ games before we make a firm judgement about them.


... why then have we made judgements and let go so many players that haven't managed that number.

I think its hard to compare.

Where we are at means its hard to get a read on players and their abilities because of how few experienced heads we have in the team.

In the past, where a Kane Lucas or a Matthew Watson joined a rather settled lineup, they looked like they had no idea what they were doing and didn't display even a snippet of the ability that half of these guys do.

Our kids all have shown something (except Polson who is the only real worry).

Now its about how we develope them as a unit and as individuals.

Our kids all have shown something (except Polson who is the only real worry).

Polson looks OK at VFL level, I think if he was at a club surrounded by the right type of player he is capable of doing a Caleb Daniel type role at AFL level. He's probably easily the smartest of the smalls we have drafted, but he doesn't have any natural physical advantage.

I liked his tackling efforts in the game a couple of weeks ago. He seemed to make a few stick which is unusual for our team.

I liked his tackling efforts in the game a couple of weeks ago. He seemed to make a few stick which is unusual for our team.

Yes, I can easily see him in the Wright role in years to come, the small, reliable, consistent, smart, tackling forward who does the right thing and makes the right decisions. He won't just be on the end of someone else's good work like a couple of the others we have drafted appear to be, he'll be creating opportunities for team mates.

I'm not convinced by small forwards, or forwards in general, who goal from out the back cheapies. I'll be impressed when I see a couple of them doing the Rioli type stuff and creating an opportunity from nothing, either for themselves or for someone else!

I think its hard to compare.

Where we are at means its hard to get a read on players and their abilities because of how few experienced heads we have in the team.

In the past, where a Kane Lucas or a Matthew Watson joined a rather settled lineup, they looked like they had no idea what they were doing and didn't display even a snippet of the ability that half of these guys do.

Our kids all have shown something (except Polson who is the only real worry).

Now its about how we develope them as a unit and as individuals.

If we look back at some of the threads of the past though, you'll find that many of 'our kids' of the past all had games where there was some genuine excitement...where they showed something.

http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1375.0

http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=945.0

...and one of the most insightful comments from the Buckley thread was this one.

No light, no tunnel, just a drop of positivity in an ocean of bullcrap expectations.

One rising star nomination doesnt make a player.  He has effectively been picked as one to watch moving forward as he has a future.

That should be the minimal expectation that we have on our youngsters.  Instead, we seem to have the opposite.  We are so entrenched in failure we have no idea how to recognise success.

You wont see a proper club patting a bloke on the back for a rising star nomination.  They will simply give the guy a pat on the back and on we go.

"Games into kids" isn't as important as "games into kids together" and at the moment circumstances (injuries, selections) are preventing that on many occasions.

"Games into kids" isn't as important as "games into kids together" and at the moment circumstances (injuries, selections) are preventing that on many occasions.

Yes, that together word is usually omitted but it is crucial.

Polson looks OK at VFL level, I think if he was at a club surrounded by the right type of player he is capable of doing a Caleb Daniel type role at AFL level. He's probably easily the smartest of the smalls we have drafted, but he doesn't have any natural physical advantage.

Maybe, and I hope for him he turns it around, but his limitations seem to be plentiful.  Zach Fisher is your Caleb Daniel type.  Polson is more Honeychurch (without the natural ability at the moment).


I cannot say that about any of the other players we have drafted.

Williamson - Good size, good athletic ability, uses the ball well enough.  Currently injured
SPS - A bit small, but has good evasive ability, generally hits targets, and can stick a tackle.  Currently has application issues, and needs some work on game sense.
JSOS - Limited athletically, but seems to have the smarts and work rate to negate this.  Had been scoring reasonably well, but that has dried up a bit this season and been a bit ineffective.
Weitering - Good size, seems a bit sluggish and down on form and confidence, but is still getting to where the footy is but needs to contest harder.
Marchbank - Good size, speed and skills, good over head mark.  No real negatives, played his first poor game on friday.
Harry - Good size, good agility, good skills, needs to work on his application and workrate (fitness??)
Cunningham - Good skills, good size, nous, doesnt want to get his hands dirty, but can really use the ball well (maturity).
Curnow - has all the tools required, just needs to keep working hard and perhaps make better decisions, but even the wrong ones, arent that bad.
Fisher - Is doing everything we can ask of him and just belongs.  The exception to the rule that states draftees need time, because he has a good head on his shoulders and is competing really well.
Macreadie - tall who has shown good competitive ability and AFL standard skills, probably hasnt had the opportunity through simple depth of numbers at the moment, but what we have seen of him looks good.
Paddy Dow - Looks good in the clinches, and could polish up the disposal a little but is doing well for a first year player.
Lochie O Brien - Good kick of the footy, has pace, perhaps not overly physical, but this might come with confidence.
De Koning - His ruck work in VFL level is a standout already.  Needs time before impacting at AFL level.
Schumacher - a relative unknown quantity
Pat Kerr - a speculative late tall who is working hard.  Havent seen what he has to offer yet, but he will get his chance based on VFL form and then we will see.

Put Polson in the above group, and he sticks out like a sore thumb.  It doesn't mean he wont make it, because the ones that are really effective for us are way ahead of schedule (thankfully) but hes the only one I look at that doesnt seem to bring much to the equation.  I think hes probably the only real question mark at the moment.  I'm yet to see why SOS decided to draft him, which is no indicator of anything.

Hence why I state hes my only real concern of our draftees.  If you are a small and you don't have some tricks up your sleeve then you are in all sorts.

If we look back at some of the threads of the past though, you'll find that many of 'our kids' of the past all had games where there was some genuine excitement...where they showed something.

http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1375.0

http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=945.0

...and one of the most insightful comments from the Buckley thread was this one.

"Games into kids" isn't as important as "games into kids together" and at the moment circumstances (injuries, selections) are preventing that on many occasions.

Yep, once again, I should listen to myself a little more.

I'm not convinced of any of our kids, but I have seen they have the tools. 

Maybe, and I hope for him he turns it around, but his limitations seem to be plentiful.  Zach Fisher is your Caleb Daniel type.  Polson is more Honeychurch (without the natural ability at the moment).

No I don't agree about that, in my opinion Fisher is already well beyond anything Daniel has or can deliver, Fisher just doesn't get the recognition Daniel gets.

I think you've pre-judged Polson. If you watched VFL regularly there is no way you could be positive about McKay or Macreadie and also negative about Polson. At VFL level Polson has them comfortably covered on so many levels other than dimensions. His work ethic is equal to Graham, and his ball use is probably better, he just doesn't get as much of the football yet.

I suspect as the years pass, players like Weitering will replace Rowe, and that shift in team balance will create opportunity for players like Polson. But it may depend on how our list looks ignoring Fisher, Kennedy looks slow, Cripps is slow, SPS is not fast, Dow is inside, and O'Brien is outside. Not sure how Polson fits if he wants midfield as a role.

I'm quite aware of what happened in the various games this season.

Paul, what we don't know on here is what exactly the coaching panel is trying to achieve in each game within the reset cycle. And that is the point - we are in a reset cycle - is a normal tactical approach always being applied or are selection and game plan decisions being made based more on list and player management/development considerations? Those not part of the inner sanctum would not really be in a position to know, but can only surmise.

Paul, what we don't know on here is what exactly the coaching panel is trying to achieve in each game within the reset cycle. And that is the point - we are in a reset cycle - is a normal tactical approach always being applied or are selection and game plan decisions being made based more on list and player management/development considerations? Those not part of the inner sanctum would not really be in a position to know, but can only surmise.

We don't know.
The expectation is that we go out each week always to get the win but some of the selections over recent times gives the impression that there is another agenda...experimentation and player development.
If that's the case it's a gutsy strategy because eventually patience wears thin if results aren't forthcoming.
If the club is united and understanding of the approach you're on pretty solid ground even in the face of supporter unrest.
Where it can come unstuck is if the lack of success leads to a group, who think they can do better, taking advantage of any discontent to rest control of the club

No I don't agree about that, in my opinion Fisher is already well beyond anything Daniel has or can deliver, Fisher just doesn't get the recognition Daniel gets.

I think you've pre-judged Polson. If you watched VFL regularly there is no way you could be positive about McKay or Macreadie and also negative about Polson. At VFL level Polson has them comfortably covered on so many levels other than dimensions. His work ethic is equal to Graham, and his ball use is probably better, he just doesn't get as much of the football yet.

I suspect as the years pass, players like Weitering will replace Rowe, and that shift in team balance will create opportunity for players like Polson. But it may depend on how our list looks ignoring Fisher, Kennedy looks slow, Cripps is slow, SPS is not fast, Dow is inside, and O'Brien is outside. Not sure how Polson fits if he wants midfield as a role.

I look at their AFL form and what they have shown.  The VFL is one kettle of fish, the AFL another.  A few have shown not much at VFL level and then gone up a gear at AFL level.


Rather than arguing about Fisher or Daniel, its not the point.  Irrespective of how we rate players, my list shows that Polson is currently one who is the only real question mark about being an AFL capable competitor which is why he is the only one that worries me.  Macreadie could turn out to be a bust, but his AFL form last year was solid enough to show that we have our key position players sorted for a few years.

We don't know.
The expectation is that we go out each week always to get the win but some of the selections over recent times gives the impression that there is another agenda...experimentation and player development.
If that's the case it's a gutsy strategy because eventually patience wears thin if results aren't forthcoming.
If the club is united and understanding of the approach you're on pretty solid ground even in the face of supporter unrest.
Where it can come unstuck is if the lack of success leads to a group, who think they can do better, taking advantage of any discontent to rest control of the club

Lods I'm sure we always go out to win but maybe within the context of a player development/list development agenda.  It is risky and that's why BB would have to have the absolute full support of the club, if this is indeed what is happening. You are dead right about currently outside parties and I'm sure there would be some watching developments very closely!

Irrespective of how we rate players, my list shows that Polson is currently one who is the only real question mark about being an AFL capable competitor which is why he is the only one that worries me.  Macreadie could turn out to be a bust, but his AFL form last year was solid enough to show that we have our key position players sorted for a few years.

I can only judge them as they play relative to each other, and side by side in the VFL, it's Polson that looks closer to AFL than some of the others.

But I no expert, in fact I'll assert based on the McKay / Kerr selection situation I know nothing at all!

One concern I have, is which player does Kerr really compete with for a AFL spot?

Who does Polson really compete with for that matter?

It may not be a level playing field!

I've heard the club and coaches throw around terms like honesty, hard working, good character, reward for effort, but I'm yet to clearly see this in the team selection policy. I appreciate team selection is complex issue, but it must surely follow your ethos. Again I can only judge based on what I see on the fields, it may not be the on field stuff that holds some players back.

I can only judge them as they play relative to each other, and side by side in the VFL, it's Polson that looks closer to AFL than some of the others.

But I no expert, in fact I'll assert based on the McKay / Kerr selection situation I know nothing at all!

One concern I have, is which player does Kerr really compete with for a AFL spot?

Who does Polson really compete with for that matter?

It may not be a level playing field!

I've heard the club and coaches throw around terms like honest, hard working, good character, but I'm yet to see this in the selection policy. I appreciate team selection is complex issue, but it must surely follow your ethos.

Im definitely no expert.

I do know a thing or two about team dynamics, but largely coaches all tend to have the same modus operandi with all their players.  At any given moment some are in favour or not.  When you're not, from the outside looking in, it can look like you are having to do twice the amount of work to make half the headway.

The only other factor is how well people execute the instructions provided to them.

i.e.  JSOS getting the chop in round 1, Cunningham getting Omitted vs North, Lamb getting Omitted on the back of his West Coast game, and Ill go early and state that SPS should get dropped this week, but probably won't.

I was bemused by all of these decisions regarding dropping players, but none of them were overly surprising as they didnt really hurt the opposition enough.

I was bemused by all of these decisions regarding dropping players, but none of them were overly surprising as they didnt really hurt the opposition enough.

I know that I've alluded to this earlier, but is Kerr's Carlton career in trouble because he is competing for the similar role to SoJ?

Similar size, similar speed, similar work ethic, maybe there can be only one in the team, and if that is the case is it then a level playing field?

FWIW, I'd have Kerr comfortably covering SoJ for contested marking and kicking. SoJ probably has Kerr comfortably covered at ground level.

If you read the pre-game thread half of the forum questioned the selections and why we dropped two small pressure forwards and replaced them with an inside midfielder and another half back flanker.

Just like the suns game when we replaced Kreuzer with a small, that left Casboult in the ruck.

Terrible selections that cost us both games before they even began.

What pressure forwards?

Cunningham was playing off the HBF and wouldn't chase nor tackle, Garlett was playing wing HFF and would not chase or tackle. Why do they get a game again?

If there had not been changes then Bolton would of been criticised for not putting players out who won't put in.

I'm a little confused about the argument that we should wait until some of these kids make it to 50+ games before we make a firm judgement about them.


... why then have we made judgements and let go so many players that haven't managed that number.

We have not let any player go that we drafted since the Bolton / SOS regime started and that's all I'm concerned with.

What pressure forwards?

Cunningham was playing off the HBF and wouldn't chase nor tackle, Garlett was playing wing HFF and would not chase or tackle. Why do they get a game again?

If there had not been changes then Bolton would of been criticised for not putting players out who won't put in.

Jed Lamb might have been one of the forwards referred to by mbb. I can't remember exactly what was said in the pre match thread.

Jed Lamb might have been one of the forwards referred to by mbb. I can't remember exactly what was said in the pre match thread.

Sorry, when someone mentions pressure forwards Jed Lamb does not spring to mind at all

Sorry, when someone mentions pressure forwards Jed Lamb does not spring to mind at all

No, perhaps not, but I think he may have been mentioned in the pm thread as a person of interest.

I'm a little confused about the argument that we should wait until some of these kids make it to 50+ games before we make a firm judgement about them.


... why then have we made judgements and let go so many players that haven't managed that number.

You can make judgements on individual players, however the counter argument is that the kids are no good because the group as a collective is gone backward from 2017.

For me it was a given.   Last year our midfield was a major weakness and it batted 3 deep with Cripps, Gibbs and Murphy.   E.Curnow next in line (god bless him) is an endurance beast, but a good honest battler.    With all three in the middle we were competitive.   We just couldn't afford to lose any.

Flash forward to 2018.   No Gibbs and No Doc and blokes like SPS in their 21 game of football are in the centre square.    Are we expecting SPS to replace Gibbs and his 231 games of experience.   Or course not.

So where is the improvement going to come from to replace Gibbs and Doc to at least match last years output?   As Raydan pointed out your real improvement comes from those guys who have had 4-5 pre-seasons and our cupboard is bare in this department.  

Our young kids will struggle to have a impact in a weak side.   Like McCluggage, Ainsworth, Brodie, Bowes etc.    All still have the potential to be very good players, but it ain't going to happen 21 games into a career.   

So I ask everyone given our outs.   What made you think we would be better than 2017?

Sorry, when someone mentions pressure forwards Jed Lamb does not spring to mind at all

Do you think Houli knocked him out for craps and giggles?

With the exception of Fisher Garlett chases more than anyone.

Sorry, when someone mentions pressure forwards Jed Lamb does not spring to mind at all

It does for James Sicily.

You can make judgements on individual players, however the counter argument is that the kids are no good because the group as a collective is gone backward from 2017.

For me it was a given.   Last year our midfield was a major weakness and it batted 3 deep with Cripps, Gibbs and Murphy.   E.Curnow next in line (god bless him) is an endurance beast, but a good honest battler.    With all three in the middle we were competitive.   We just couldn't afford to lose any.

Flash forward to 2018.   No Gibbs and No Doc and blokes like SPS in their 21 game of football are in the centre square.    Are we expecting SPS to replace Gibbs and his 231 games of experience.   Or course not.

So where is the improvement going to come from to replace Gibbs and Doc to at least match last years output?   As Raydan pointed out your real improvement comes from those guys who have had 4-5 pre-seasons and our cupboard is bare in this department.  

Our young kids will struggle to have a impact in a weak side.   Like McCluggage, Ainsworth, Brodie, Bowes etc.    All still have the potential to be very good players, but it ain't going to happen 21 games into a career.   

So I ask everyone given our outs.   What made you think we would be better than 2017?

I still really like Brodie - he's not getting a game at GC as Rischitelli, Miller, Swallow, etc. are playing in his position. I wonder if we could snag him on the cheap at the end of the year - even though he is still under contract?

You can make judgements on individual players, however the counter argument is that the kids are no good because the group as a collective is gone backward from 2017.

For me it was a given.   Last year our midfield was a major weakness and it batted 3 deep with Cripps, Gibbs and Murphy.   E.Curnow next in line (god bless him) is an endurance beast, but a good honest battler.    With all three in the middle we were competitive.   We just couldn't afford to lose any.

Flash forward to 2018.   No Gibbs and No Doc and blokes like SPS in their 21 game of football are in the centre square.    Are we expecting SPS to replace Gibbs and his 231 games of experience.   Or course not.

So where is the improvement going to come from to replace Gibbs and Doc to at least match last years output?   As Raydan pointed out your real improvement comes from those guys who have had 4-5 pre-seasons and our cupboard is bare in this department.  

Our young kids will struggle to have a impact in a weak side.   Like McCluggage, Ainsworth, Brodie, Bowes etc.    All still have the potential to be very good players, but it ain't going to happen 21 games into a career.   

So I ask everyone given our outs.   What made you think we would be better than 2017?

Murphy wasn't supposed to be missing... and the addition of players like Kennedy and Lang and the drafting of Dow plus an expected improvement in SPS  should have given us a close to break even....otherwise Gibbs was some sort of super player.

Now fates have conspired against us...but lets assume down the track, towards the end of the season,  we have all these players fit and available.
We should have a better mid-field.

Docherty's the bigger loss....I suspect he would probably have spent some more time in the mid-field...but what we really miss is his setting up attacks from the half back. It would have been the key to the  more attacking game plan.... and the fact we tried that without his contribution was brave but obviously not very successful.

With the exception of Fisher Garlett chases more than anyone.

Right at the moment Garlett is a bit selective when it comes time to chase.

I still really like Brodie - he's not getting a game at GC as Rischitelli, Miller, Swallow, etc. are playing in his position. I wonder if we could snag him on the cheap at the end of the year - even though he is still under contract?

He's been injured, and they are in no rush to cook the talent!

He's been injured, and they are in no rush to cook the talent!

Hasn't had an injury as far as I know. Into his second year and played all bar 2 AFL games in the NEAFL. Could be vulnerable like Kennedy was.

Hasn't had an injury as far as I know. Into his second year and played all bar 2 AFL games in the NEAFL. Could be vulnerable like Kennedy was.

I thought he missed about a month in total through injury last season, didn't he do a knee during his first full pre-season?

I don't know why he missed earlier this season.

I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons. 

Problem is, this is the 3rd, 4th, 5th? 'rebuild, redevelopment, rennovation, rejuvination...'

This casserole was supposed to be for dinner......last week. By the time its cooked we'll be dead from malnutrition!
;)

Problem is, this is the 3rd, 4th, 5th? 'rebuild, redevelopment, rennovation, rejuvination...'

This casserole was supposed to be for dinner......last week. By the time its cooked we'll be dead from malnutrition!
;)

Hitting the draft and recruiting Daisy Thomas isn't a rebuild, restumping, reanything.

The Daisy Thomas who has been amongst our best this year and is still considered best 22...seems like pretty smart recruiting in hindsight ;)

Hitting the draft and recruiting Daisy Thomas isn't a rebuild, restumping, reanything.

It was an attempted reanimation.

*results may vary*


He is the least of our worries at present.

The Daisy Thomas who has been amongst our best this year and is still considered best 22...seems like pretty smart recruiting in hindsight ;)

Atm Lods Daisy is very very important for us. Maybe a happy accident rather than inspired planning - who knows?

Atm Lods Daisy is very very important for us. Maybe a happy accident rather than inspired planning - who knows?

FWIW, i was in favour of getting daisy for the very reason people are happy with him now.

Effort, encouragement and a role model for the younger kids.

Obviously the injuries he's copped while at the club, in addition to what he already had has dampened his performance on the field somewhat....but his heart is very much still going strong.

People lament his inclusion because it coincided with Betts leaving.....but by his own admission, Betts needed a change of scenery and that change of scenery took his career to a new level. If Betts was still with us, i doubt he'd have improved to the level he has reached and thus, the daisy issue wouldn't be such a great one.

Murphy wasn't supposed to be missing... and the addition of players like Kennedy and Lang and the drafting of Dow plus an expected improvement in SPS  should have given us a close to break even....otherwise Gibbs was some sort of super player.

Now fates have conspired against us...but lets assume down the track, towards the end of the season,  we have all these players fit and available.
We should have a better mid-field.

Docherty's the bigger loss....I suspect he would probably have spent some more time in the mid-field...but what we really miss is his setting up attacks from the half back. It would have been the key to the  more attacking game plan.... and the fact we tried that without his contribution was brave but obviously not very successful.

Gibbs is a seriously good footballer.   Grossly underated by these boards and Carlton Fans in general.   Most likely from frustrations that he hadn't won 4 brownlows and led us to 6 premierships.   Yeah he wasn't hard like Dusty Martin, but he was composed, clean, a great field kick and a bloody good footballer.

He is a player that can have 43 touches, 8 Marks, 10 tackles and kick 2 goals in a game.

You can't replace that with Kennedy (19 games), Lang (44) who couldn't crack the Cats Midfield, Dow (0) and SPS (21).    It's like trying to replace Steve Smith with Renshaw, Burns, Handscomb and Travis Head.   Yeah I know Gibbs isn't Steve Smith

The decison to trade Gibbs was always going to be a step back, to make up better in the long run.    6 months long run?   No.   3-4 years.

The Daisy Thomas who has been amongst our best this year and is still considered best 22...seems like pretty smart recruiting in hindsight ;)

No doubt.    But "IF" you are rebuidling you don't pick him up and lose the Eddie Betts compensation pick we would have got.   IE:   Not a rebuild.

Gibbs is a seriously good footballer.   Grossly underated by these boards and Carlton Fans in general.   Most likely from frustrations that he hadn't won 4 brownlows and led us to 6 premierships.   Yeah he wasn't hard like Dusty Martin, but he was composed, clean, a great field kick and a bloody good footballer.

He is a player that can have 43 touches, 8 Marks, 10 tackles and kick 2 goals in a game.

You can't replace that with Kennedy (19 games), Lang (44) who couldn't crack the Cats Midfield, Dow (0) and SPS (21).    It's like trying to replace Steve Smith with Renshaw, Burns, Handscomb and Travis Head.   Yeah I know Gibbs isn't Steve Smith

The decison to trade Gibbs was always going to be a step back, to make up better in the long run.    6 months long run?   No.   3-4 years.

You are right in what you say about Gibbs. You are never going to replace him with those players.

However, we were never trying to too.

What we were trying to do is get more talent on our list that will still be on our list when Gibbs has long been retired.

So long term, its a gain because we have 'something' when we would've otherwise had nothing when Gibbs hung up his boots.

Anyone who thinks otherwise has missed the point of that trade regardless of their thoughts on Gibbs.

Problem is, this is the 3rd, 4th, 5th? 'rebuild, redevelopment, rennovation, rejuvination...'

This casserole was supposed to be for dinner......last week. By the time its cooked we'll be dead from malnutrition!
;)

You cannot blame Bolton/SOS for the disasters of the past, they were given a crap sandwich and have done a potentially great job in filling the list with young players with upside and talent.

You cannot blame Bolton/SOS for the disasters of the past, they were given a crap sandwich and have done a potentially great job in filling the list with young players with upside and talent.

I'm not blaming them, i'm blaming the club, they just happen to be part of the club.

I'd like to think its different this time, and it appears it is....but you know what, i had the same thought every other time too....so forgive me for not being 'all-in'

I remember when Pagan was coach posters here were saying that was the first time the club has done a full rebuild and embraced the draft.

You are right in what you say about Gibbs. You are never going to replace him with those players.

However, we were never trying to too.

What we were trying to do is get more talent on our list that will still be on our list when Gibbs has long been retired.

So long term, its a gain because we have 'something' when we would've otherwise had nothing when Gibbs hung up his boots.

Anyone who thinks otherwise has missed the point of that trade regardless of their thoughts on Gibbs.

Agree 100%   Some people seem surprised it put us back a step.   But here we are. 

I remember when Pagan was coach posters here were saying that was the first time the club has done a full rebuild and embraced the draft.

Yeah, Nah, Maybe.

Pagan got an old list.   We lost top end draft picks.    We recruited 20 recycled players that other than Scotland all sucked.

As a result we got a lot of early picks that we used rather than trade for Michael Mansfield or Stephen O'Reilly

He is a player that can have 43 touches, 8 Marks, 10 tackles and kick 2 goals in a game.

Yep
He does that every week ::)

The reality is he's a 23 touch 5 mark, 4 tackle, 0.6 goal player...a good, average midfielder often critcicised for high disposal/ lack of impact.
Docherty was a much greater loss

Yep
He does that every week ::)

The reality is he's a 23 touch 5 mark, 4 tackle, 0.6 goal player...a good, average midfielder often critcicised for high disposal/ lack of impact.
Docherty was a much greater loss

"can have"    Key words.

If any of the 4 you mentioned did I hope they don't bump their head when they wake up.

I remember when Pagan was coach posters here were saying that was the first time the club has done a full rebuild and embraced the draft.

Ill stand corrected if you can find the posts but I don't recall anyone saying that. It is nonsense to suggest we have done "rebuilds" before. It has never been done in our clubs history until now. DH's like Jack Elliott openly gloated something like "we dont rebuild at Carlton". Pagan drafted in all the rejects from other clubs due to the salary cap penalties. I recall an article about Pagans Foreign Legion showing all the players he traded in.

No doubt.    But "IF" you are rebuidling you don't pick him up and lose the Eddie Betts compensation pick we would have got.   IE:   Not a rebuild.

When Daisy was signed on, there was no rebuild. Lets be clear about that.

"can have"    Key words.

If any of the 4 you mentioned did I hope they don't bump their head when they wake up.

He had those stats in one game.
None of the individuals mentioned have those stats nor were they likely to have....but a fit "any two" would go close to matching Gibbs output in average terms.
It's yet to be seen... but a fit Kennedy and Lang or some improvement from some of our young midfielders should go a fair way to covering that loss

Yes we've lost Gibbs...but the net result isn't the loss of 43 possessions, or even his average 23.... unless the replacements are getting none at all.

He had those stats in one game.
None of the individuals mentioned have those stats nor were they likely to have....but a fit "any two" would go close to matching Gibbs output in average terms.
It's yet to be seen... but a fit Kennedy and Lang or some improvement from some of our young midfielders should go a fair way to covering that loss

Yes we've lost Gibbs...but the net result isn't the loss of 43 possessions, or even his average 23.... unless the replacements are getting none at all.

Yes.  That's was sort of my point.

You can't replace 1 with 2.   

So it's Gibbs & SPS (Debut Year) vs Kennedy & SPS (Extra Year).  

Look all those guys should improve, but 4 players with 0-40 games experience aren't going to make a great midfield.   Yet

My argument was based on your original point that with the loss of Gibbs we should have seen the difficult season coming.

But using the Gibbs, Kennedy, SPS combinations...we didn't know Kennedy would struggle with injury and there was some expectation that SPS would have an improved year and not suffer from second year blues.

So there was reason to be positive about the season.
Of much greater impact was the loss of Docherty ...then Kreuzer and Murphy.

Anyway.... come the second half of the year if we can get a few back, and  some improved form from some of the strugglers, we may have a better idea of where we stand.

My argument was based on your original point that with the loss of Gibbs we should have seen the difficult season coming.

But using the Gibbs, Kennedy, SPS combinations...we didn't know Kennedy would struggle with injury and there was some expectation that SPS would have an improved year and not suffer from second year blues.

So there was reason to be positive about the season.
Of much greater impact was the loss of Docherty ...then Kreuzer and Murphy.

Anyway.... come the second half of the year if we can get a few back, and  some improved form from some of the strugglers, we may have a better idea of where we stand.

Again I argued that we would be doing well not to go backwards after trading Gibbs.

I'm sorry to say we haven't done well enough to not go backwards.   Docherty or no Docherty.

The Daisy Thomas who has been amongst our best this year and is still considered best 22....

Some are saying that we need to bring in a Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell type elder statesmen to direct the young kids and give them some cover down back.  I'd argue that Thomas is as, if not more, effective than Hodge at the moment, in that role. 

Some are saying that we need to bring in a Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell type elder statesmen to direct the young kids and give them some cover down back.  I'd argue that Thomas is as, if not more, effective than Hodge at the moment, in that role.

x2

It's probably fair to say we need another in that role, but I'd assert if we go that way it should be a KPF type not a utility. I think if they can stay fit and find form, ACoS and Rowe are already viable KPD statesmen.

As much as I've like Levi's last two games, I can't see him as a KPF role model.

I remember when Pagan was coach posters here were saying that was the first time the club has done a full rebuild and embraced the draft.

Very hard to rebuild when the first 2 years we lost 2 first round, 2 second round and a priority pick.

To rebuild through the draft you have to trade away players to get picks, something we have never done in fact we've done the opposite, traded away picks to get players.

This is the first time that Carlton have built their team through the draft while trading in young talent as well.

x2

It's probably fair to say we need another in that role, but I'd assert if we go that way it should be a KPF type not a utility. I think if they can stay fit and find form, ACoS and Rowe are already viable KPD statesmen.

As much as I've like Levi's last two games, I can't see his as a KPF role model.

Yet, according to Matty Wright, Casboult is the leader of the forwards.  As much as I like Levi’s work as a back up ruck and key forward, I’m not sure that having him as the forward line skipper is a good thing.  It would be nice if we had a very experienced forward with a few years of decent form ahead of them to organise our forward line, and particularly when we don’t have the pill.

Yet, according to Matty Wright, Casboult is the leader of the forwards.  As much as I like Levi’s work as a back up ruck and key forward, I’m not sure that having him as the forward line skipper is a good thing.  It would be nice if we had a very experienced forward with a few years of decent form ahead of them to organise our forward line, and particularly when we don’t have the pill.

But is this a new thing for Levi, he's clearly been very different the last couple of games, perhaps it is down to these new responsibilities?

Personally, I like the new Levi, it is such a contrast to the old one! If he keeps playing the way he is currently playing opposition will start taking him seriously, and he'll kick 8 before the season is over!

All I want now is to see him crack on for four quarters, and take out a few more opponents!

Yet, according to Matty Wright, Casboult is the leader of the forwards.  As much as I like Levi’s work as a back up ruck and key forward, I’m not sure that having him as the forward line skipper is a good thing.  It would be nice if we had a very experienced forward with a few years of decent form ahead of them to organise our forward line, and particularly when we don’t have the pill.

Yes I noted that DJC. I think Levi is showing a lot more confidence - not sure if it is due to his new responsibilities?

Very hard to rebuild when the first 2 years we lost 2 first round, 2 second round and a priority pick.

To rebuild through the draft you have to trade away players to get picks, something we have never done in fact we've done the opposite, traded away picks to get players.

This is the first time that Carlton have built their team through the draft while trading in young talent as well.

It was a rebuild, just not through the draft initially....
Pagan moved on the older players and replaced them with 'average' mid-aged players from other clubs.
Probably the thinking was that they were a bit above average which in most cases turned out not to be the case.
That's not completely unlike what we've done with some of the players we've picked up from other clubs.
The difference this time is the youth approach.

While it's easy to look back in hindsight and say what a disaster it was at the time, there was genuine hope a bounce back from the draft penalties would only take a few years.

The mid-age group were merely a stop-gap until we were again able to hit the draft early.
At that point, other than number one picks, it became more about poor choices and poor development.

That's where we need to be better this time.

2004-2008 had numerous top picks. How was that not a rebuild?

There's no clear definition as to what actually constitutes a rebuild/reset etc. My view is that it involves a whole-of-club approach, from top to toe, across all departments, all teams etc. A stated aim wrt culture, belief, values that is hopefully rigorously adhered to and followed through. A very particular way of looking at a footy club as a genuine holistic entity.

If you're just going through the motions, and taking your allotted 1str rounder, 2nd rounder etc. I'm not sure that's a rebuild. And if you happen to be crap for a few years, and get lots of 1st rounders, taking the "best available", I'm not sure that's a rebuild. Changing coaches every 30 seconds IMO resets the rebuild. 

2004-2008 had numerous top picks. How was that not a rebuild?

Of course it was a rebuild...and two coaches later that rebuild resulted in finals appearances.
We started with a mid-aged acquisition, topped it up with early picks and then finished it off by adding a marquee player.
A rebuild. ;)

The real point of difference this time , and something we didn't do that time, is that this time we're trading players for earlier picks in the draft.
It's just a different kind of rebuild

2004-2008 had numerous top picks. How was that not a rebuild?

And we fecked up nearly every one of them

I don't think the issue is should the club be sticking to a rebuild because the answer is an unequivocal yes.

The issue isn't even should we be doing better this year than last because it should be obvious that losing Docherty after trading Gibbs would be a set back.

The issue is whether the rebuild given these set backs is meeting expectation and if not the question must be asked if the brains trust behind it (coaches, selectors and development crew) are taking the playing group on the right path.

IMHO, we are underperforming in this rebuild. Young players seem to be under developed (particularly in comparison to their draft cohort), skills are not improving and our game plan seems to confusing players. That game plan seems to treat defence and attack as two separate things and as a result we either set up so defensively we can't score or try so hard to attack that we can't defend (a big problem when our skill deficiencies let us down so much) Again, it's just my opinion but we need to find the middle ground and do both by getting players to run both ways. I don't see this or steps forwards it.

I don't know if this means a change in the coaching panel. I see everyone's points about the fallout if Bolton is dumped but something has to change to get us back on the right rebuild path. I do think we have the right young players to develop but question how we're doing in that task of developing them.

(Ps I still vote for adding one or two marquee free agents this year. I like the idea of our young group playing with and learning from some players like Sloane and GC's Lynch)

Here endeth my rant.

The impression I get from reading these recent posts is that it's a case of "let's get good players into the men's seniors, start winning games of footy, and the rest will look after itself." I don't think that's the beginning and end point for Bolton and Co.

In my view, a properly reset club would not have had the salary cap saga. A properly reset club would not have had a player revolt under Pagan, with the tail wagging the dog, or at least would have sorted it quickly and behind closed doors. A properly reset club would not have had the same recruiting team in place for far too long, despite delivering poor results. A properly reset club would not have had a situation under Ratten where the GM of Football (Icke) and Ratts had a sh1t relationship, ditto Ratts and Justin Cordy, both of which were allowed to fester when they should have been sorted out quickly. A properly reset club would not have had the Malthouse package deal / lazy rebuild, where you get Mick, plus Daisy, plus Buttifant etc. You do your due diligence and check each individual properly, not just because some senior person e.g the coach wants them.

Ask yourselves this - could you see the Hawks being dragged down by these types of situations ? Could you genuinely see these situations developing at the Swans ?

But that's not the domain of Bolton, Paul.

That's club board dynamics and football boards are political entities.
Change at that level is subject to the whims of members and if members are behind a board they'll stay there.
If however discontent arises, often through continued lack of success, a board becomes vulnerable.
It's not something you can control.
While members are convinced of the direction the club has chosen you'll have stability...when someone pokes his/her head up and says they can do better that's when you'll have a focus for any discontent.
When you have division that's when your trouble will start.

Stability and success are the key components...if either is lacking then you have a problem.

Ask yourselves this - could you see the Hawks being dragged down by these types of situations ? Could you genuinely see these situations developing at the Swans ?

I remember a time when that was Carlton...and I remember a time when the Swans were a basket case.


 

2004-2008 had numerous top picks. How was that not a rebuild?

Traded out a total of 0 players for picks during that period.

But that's not the domain of Bolton, Paul.

That's club board dynamics and football boards are political entities.
Change at that level is subject to the whims of members and if members are behind a board they'll stay there.
If however discontent arises, often through continued lack of success, a board becomes vulnerable.
It's not something you can control.
While members are convinced of the direction the club has chosen you'll have stability...when someone pokes his/her head up and says they can do better that's when you'll have a focus for any discontent.
When you have division that's when your trouble will start.

Stability and success are the key components...if either is lacking then you have a problem.

To me, this is part of the problem, this attitude of "you look after your domain, and I'll like after mine." Every bit of the club has to work together, and all have to be working properly towards a common goal, with a common set of values. Bolton is not responsible for everything, but he is the change agent, and the prime mover behind setting values he's learned at the Hawks.

It's a domino thing. One bit of the club affects all the others in some small or significant way.

To me, this is part of the problem, this attitude of "you look after your domain, and I'll like after mine." Every bit of the club has to work together, and all have to be working properly towards a common goal, with a common set of values. Bolton is not responsible for everything, but he is the change agent, and the prime mover behind setting values he's learned at the Hawks.

It's a domino thing. One bit of the club affects all the others in some small or significant way.

That's the point though isn't it.
It takes a huge personality to effect that kind of culture change.
I reckon Barassi was able to do that at Carlton North Melbourne and the Swans.
He wasn't able to do the same at Melbourne.

Is Bolton a Barassi?...yet to be seen

But a lot still depends on the level of commitment to that culture change and it's not determined at our level.
It happens in the board rooms and the corridors of the club.

...................................

I remember a time when that was Carlton...and I remember a time when the Swans were a basket case.

I'm not saying it's terminal, but it needs to be fixed.

We won't be a successful club if our membership is crap. We won't be a successful club if key senior football people don't get on. We won't be a successful club if the players do as they please. We won't be a successful club if we don't address development, recruiting etc.

SOS told a story when he started as our recruiting manager that player files were kept in manila folders in a filing cabinet in someone's office, in 2014 ! No computers, no database............

It's beyond embarrassing. The top clubs would never in a million years be in this position.

Traded out a total of 0 players for picks during that period.

And?

We didn't need more picks we had 3 straight number 1 selections.

We embraced the draft and it didn't work.

And?

We didn't need more picks we had 3 straight number 1 selections.

We embraced the draft and it didn't work.

And ......................... it's not the same as this rebuild in that this time we have traded out players in our best 22.

You know when you post "we have been rebuilding for 10 years blah blah blah it's not the same.    We didn't trade out a 28 year old Camporeale.   Matty Lappin.   Even Houlihan and Whitnall when Melbourne came stiffing.  

We embraced the draft.   Yeap.    

And ......................... it's not the same as this rebuild in that this time we have traded out players in our best 22.

You know when you post "we have been rebuilding for 10 years blah blah blah it's not the same.    We didn't trade out a 28 year old Camporeale.   Matty Lappin.   Even Houlihan and Whitnall when Melbourne came stiffing.  

We embraced the draft.   Yeap.  

We didn't have much to trade back then.  Remember when hawthorn were hunting Brett Thornton?  Should have traded him.

We didn't have much to trade back then.  Remember when hawthorn were hunting Brett Thornton?  Should have traded him.

2 2nd round draft picks.

Whitnall was close to going ot Melbourne at one stage.   His doing.
Houla the same.   Melbourne again.
Campo left in the pre-season draft

But you are right.    We had very few assests.

The impression I get from reading these recent posts is that it's a case of "let's get good players into the men's seniors, start winning games of footy, and the rest will look after itself." I don't think that's the beginning and end point for Bolton and Co.

In my view, a properly reset club would not have had the salary cap saga. A properly reset club would not have had a player revolt under Pagan, with the tail wagging the dog, or at least would have sorted it quickly and behind closed doors. A properly reset club would not have had the same recruiting team in place for far too long, despite delivering poor results. A properly reset club would not have had a situation under Ratten where the GM of Football (Icke) and Ratts had a sh1t relationship, ditto Ratts and Justin Cordy, both of which were allowed to fester when they should have been sorted out quickly. A properly reset club would not have had the Malthouse package deal / lazy rebuild, where you get Mick, plus Daisy, plus Buttifant etc. You do your due diligence and check each individual properly, not just because some senior person e.g the coach wants them.

Ask yourselves this - could you see the Hawks being dragged down by these types of situations ? Could you genuinely see these situations developing at the Swans ?

What has any of that got to do with Bolton and co?

I don't understand your post at all. To dredge up everything that went wrong in the last decade is pointless.

The point of the  reset is lo leave all that crap behind - surely?

What has any of that got to do with Bolton and co?

I don't understand your post at all. To dredge up everything that went wrong in the last decade is pointless.

The point of the  reset is lo leave all that crap behind - surely?

You don't just "leave problems behind" - they don't fix themselves. Don't you think that he's inherited some of the fall out of those problems ?

My post is crystal clear - you don't just fix the men's senior team. You fix the whole club.

Your post is Bolton is supposed to fix Malthouse and Ratten era issues?

How? You have some specific things that should have been done by now that haven't? 

Your post is Bolton is supposed to fix Malthouse and Ratten era issues?

How? You have some specific things that should have been done by now that haven't?

I think PP is, rightly so, pointing out an ingrained culture, a culture of deep dysfunction, a culture that BB inherited.

I think PP is, rightly so, pointing out an ingrained culture, a culture of deep dysfunction, a culture that BB inherited.

Baggers

(https://media.giphy.com/media/wMY3LjQQMqo5W/giphy.gif)

I think PP is, rightly so, pointing out an ingrained culture, a culture of deep dysfunction, a culture that BB inherited.

Are we asking Bolton to fix that?
I think he has enough on his plate.
He can develop a cohesion in the football side of things that will make it easier for those above him...McKay, Judd, the CEO and the rest of the board to do their jobs.
While that unity remains you'll have a buffer against the external noise.

But ultimately, while the club may be unified, at some point there has to be a turnaround of on-field  fortunes or each and every one of those individuals will start to feel pressure.
That's when the fractures will start.

You don't get ...'As long as it takes.'

I think PP is, rightly so, pointing out an ingrained culture, a culture of deep dysfunction, a culture that BB inherited.

Baggers we have certainly suffered from that culture in the past as evidenced by events. However I believe that the current reset is a genuine attempt to move on from that.

Is it working? Don't know yet.
Are we confident that the current board will continue to support it? I don't think they have any choice, they have publicly committed via statements made by The Judge.
Are others, the "old Carlton" style vultures, looking on for an opportunity for a putsch in the meantime? Probably, don't know for sure. Don't think this would happen before the end of 2019 and only then if insufficient improvement/progress is evident. Maybe the AFL would step in?
What will happen if this reset is judged to have failed at end 2019? Don't really know - it is possible we could descend back into chaos, I shudder to think  - I don't really want to contemplate what I think would be many more years in the wilderness as a result.

Yes I noted that DJC. I think Levi is showing a lot more confidence - not sure if it is due to his new responsibilities?

But I don't think they are new responsibilities Cookie  :-\

The last obvious forward line skipper was Eddie Betts - another reason why we should have anted up and kept Eddie in navy blue  :(

I think that it is more that Levi is at the peak of his powers as a second ruck/key forward, his goal kicking is as good as it gets (thanks Sav) and he has a couple of serious tall forwards to take some of the pressure.

I think that it is more that Levi is at the peak of his powers as a second ruck/key forward, his goal kicking is as good as it gets (thanks Sav) and he has a couple of serious tall forwards to take some of the pressure.

Looks like some strong lush regrowth rather than a green shoot!! He is moving and crashing with more confidence due to all of the above. 

The reset is about much more than embracing the draft and learning how to trade players for picks. And if it isn't, then we've learned nothing.

But I don't think they are new responsibilities Cookie  :-\

The last obvious forward line skipper was Eddie Betts - another reason why we should have anted up and kept Eddie in navy blue  :(

I think that it is more that Levi is at the peak of his powers as a second ruck/key forward, his goal kicking is as good as it gets (thanks Sav) and he has a couple of serious tall forwards to take some of the pressure.

You could well be right DJC. I have never thought of Levi as the general of our fwd division but hey! As far as my overall perception of him goes, yes I also think he is performing better now than he has ever done and looks very comfortable and confident in his role. At least some things must be working.  ;)

The reset is about much more than embracing the draft and learning how to trade players for picks. And if it isn't, then we've learned nothing.

Agree.

In some ways the Bolton situation is going to be a KPI of how much our club has learned and how far we have come.

Old Carlton would have simply pulled the pin on him and gone out and gotten the most credentialled coach available to replace him.

New Carlton needs to act in a logical well thought out and reasonable manner.  If that means we need to move Bolton on, then a clear concise thought process and methodology will result in that decision, the club will act fairly transparently and the public will generally accept the decision.

Stephen Trigg's departure smelt a bit of old Carlton, and that might be something that has people a little bit on edge regarding which way we are going to go.  If you also consider that the club has a history of treated the rank and file with a little bit of disrespect, it leads to a bit of mistrust amongst the faithful which in turn creates a little bit of a result of the club holding its breathe.  The silence from the club has been a little bit deafening, but at the same time welcome because irrespective of what is thought, they are not canvassing publically.

Cain Liddle might want to get a wriggle on though.  Stephen Trigg was very engaged with the supporter base, and I find him to have been a little bit stand offish particularly at a time when a calm well reasoned voice from the footy club might be appreciated.

The reset is about much more than embracing the draft and learning how to trade players for picks. And if it isn't, then we've learned nothing.

What seems to be your major concern here Paul?
Is it the off-field stuff?

I think since LoGiudice took over the off field side of things, especially at board level, has been quite stable.
His partnership with Trigg set up the rebuild and sold it to supporters brilliantly.
The transition to Liddle seems to have gone reasonably smoothly without us skipping much more than a beat.
Even with the poor to mediocre results the majority of Carlton supporters are maintaining their patience.
Any other coach in our history would be on their last legs with results of the last two seasons and the worst ever start to a year.
Even the usual outside critics (media, ex footballers etc) are maintaining the line that we're on track.

What seems to be your major concern here Paul?
Is it the off-field stuff?

I think since LoGiudice took over the off field side of things, especially at board level, has been quite stable.
His partnership with Trigg set up the rebuild and sold it to supporters brilliantly.
The transition to Liddle seems to have gone reasonably smoothly without us skipping much more than a beat.
Even with the poor to mediocre results the majority of Carlton supporters are maintaining their patience.
Any other coach in our history would be on their last legs with results of the last two seasons and the worst ever start to a year.
Even the usual outside critics (media, ex footballers etc) are maintaining the line that we're on track.

My recent posts on this issue need to be seen in context with recent posts from others. The current argument seems to be that :

(a).  the rebuild is simply embracing the draft and swapping players for picks, and
(b). that we have been through several rebuilds before.

If (a) is true, then we should be very worried, and I disagree with (b), unless you count changing coaches as a rebuild. The intent behind actions, decisions, thought processes, beliefs, values has remained constant despite the changing roster of senior coaches and players, at least until Bolton came along, and even then I'm pinning my hopes that he genuinely is a change agent, and not a hoax.

Time will tell.

Baggers we have certainly suffered from that culture in the past as evidenced by events. However I believe that the current reset is a genuine attempt to move on from that.

Is it working? Don't know yet.
Are we confident that the current board will continue to support it? I don't think they have any choice, they have publicly committed via statements made by The Judge.
Are others, the "old Carlton" style vultures, looking on for an opportunity for a putsch in the meantime? Probably, don't know for sure. Don't think this would happen before the end of 2019 and only then if insufficient improvement/progress is evident. Maybe the AFL would step in?
What will happen if this reset is judged to have failed at end 2019? Don't really know - it is possible we could descend back into chaos, I shudder to think  - I don't really want to contemplate what I think would be many more years in the wilderness as a result.

Totally agree. My only concern would be McKay, SOS and Mathieson don't bring any of the 'old Carlton' with them. With the exception of Mathieson/Pratt, I like the look of our Board, seems they're heading in the right direction re embracing the necessary change. But as you and others have quite rightly said, only time will tell. I remain cautiously optimistic.

Totally agree. My only concern would be McKay, SOS and Mathieson don't bring any of the 'old Carlton' with them. With the exception of Mathieson/Pratt, I like the look of our Board, seems they're heading in the right direction re embracing the necessary change. But as you and others have quite rightly said, only time will tell. I remain cautiously optimistic.

Actually, I preferred the board when Dick Pratt and Raphael Germinder were in place, it felt like the club was at least making progress. One thing Richard Pratt had brought to the club was momentum, and while he was there the club held no debt to the other power brokers as they were trivial, we lost a bit of it since his passing.

Like you I worry a bit that the return of SOS while a Mathieson remains is the heralding of the return of the old Carlton, they are bit like Michael Kroger (Caligula to his Friends), they never go away and the old money buys their way back in no matter how bad their sins!

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/are-the-bombers-being-badly-coached-20180430-p4zcgl.html

Despite the title, they devote a section to how we should brace ourselves for long term pain.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/are-the-bombers-being-badly-coached-20180430-p4zcgl.html

Despite the title, they devote a section to how we should brace ourselves for long term pain.

I think the BB appointment indicates that the club is prepared for a long rebuild. A completely new culture needs to be established among the playing group, the football dept and the admin. We have bitten the bullet but the best we can hope for immediately imo is 2-3 years of steady improvement and maybe a few more wins each year.

I think the BB appointment indicates that the club is prepared for a long rebuild. A completely new culture needs to be established among the playing group, the football dept and the admin. We have bitten the bullet but the best we can hope for immediately imo is 2-3 years of steady improvement and maybe a few more wins each year.

EDIT : one hopes.

Re the podcast, listen from about 22.40 onwards.

EDIT : one hopes.

Re the podcast, listen from about 22.40 onwards.

Bartel makes a good point, who'd have thunk we need a mature experienced proven KPF! ::)

Bartel makes a good point, who'd have thunk we need a mature experienced proven KPF! ::)

No way. News to me..............

Bartel makes a good point, who'd have thunk we need a mature experienced proven KPF! ::)

Ooh ooh *raises hand*

welcome to 2010 Jimmy.  ::)

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/are-the-bombers-being-badly-coached-20180430-p4zcgl.html

Despite the title, they devote a section to how we should brace ourselves for long term pain.

Ummmm, we have been doing to long term pain for years, we are experienced campaigners in this dept. ;) ;D

Ummmm, we have been doing to long term pain for years, we are experienced campaigners in this dept. ;) ;D

Positively masochistic!

I’ll admit it… I’m a rebuild sceptic...a rebuild denier even!
I have been from the start. I saw the announcement that we were rebuilding as a delaying tactic to ward off criticism of our position at the time. It came at a time when we were getting confident messages from the coach at the start of the year, only to fall in a heap in the early stages of that season.
It came in the middle of a power tussle that eventually saw the demise of the coach. You could tell that as far as he was concerned ‘rebuild’ was a bit of a dirty word.
2015 was a bad year made worse by that turmoil. After Malthouse left the agenda was probably more designed towards ensuring the best draft pick possible.

So once you start on a rebuild/reset you virtually have no choice but to follow it through. It’s not something you can change your mind about once you cut deeply into a list.
Silvagni and Bolton were, on the surface, pretty obvious choices to be the builders. The process for choosing Bolton was transparent and thorough.

My concerns are…
Have we cut too deeply leaving no depth or experience?

Would we have been in a better position with a less radical approach?

Have we made the right choices in terms of building a balanced list?

Has our deplorable development of young players improved? Our skills and decision making still seem to require more work.

Are our medical folk on top of things given some of the injuries, which seem in some cases to be overuse injuries. You can’t help rolled ankles but you can allow proper strength and conditioning to ward off soft tissue injuries and also allow adequate recuperation before putting a player back on the park.

Are we asking too much of certain players to the point where we push them to breaking point? I’m concerned with our management of Weitering who I suspect was asked to play on through injury a) because he was good and b) in an attempt to harden him up. Cripps carries such a heavy workload, especially in the absence of Murphy, that he’s also in danger of breaking. With nothing to lose this season we could even give him some weeks off.

How does Bolton go tactically on match day. Does he need assistance in the form of a mentor?

Some of our match day selections seem confusing. Is the focus development rather than results? At some point the latter must take precedence.

How do I feel two years and 6 games into the rebuild?…still sceptical but prepared to give it a little longer!

Nice post lods. There's plenty of ammo for the sceptics, no doubt about that.

I’ll admit it… I’m a rebuild sceptic...a rebuild denier even!
I have been from the start. I saw the announcement that we were rebuilding as a delaying tactic to ward off criticism of our position at the time. It came at a time when we were getting confident messages from the coach at the start of the year, only to fall in a heap in the early stages of that season.
It came in the middle of a power tussle that eventually saw the demise of the coach. You could tell that as far as he was concerned ‘rebuild’ was a bit of a dirty word.
2015 was a bad year made worse by that turmoil. After Malthouse left the agenda was probably more designed towards ensuring the best draft pick possible.

So once you start on a rebuild/reset you virtually have no choice but to follow it through. It’s not something you can change your mind about once you cut deeply into a list.
Silvagni and Bolton were, on the surface, pretty obvious choices to be the builders. The process for choosing Bolton was transparent and thorough.

My concerns are…
Have we cut too deeply leaving no depth or experience?

Would we have been in a better position with a less radical approach?

Have we made the right choices in terms of building a balanced list?

Has our deplorable development of young players improved? Our skills and decision making still seem to require more work.

Are our medical folk on top of things given some of the injuries, which seem in some cases to be overuse injuries. You can’t help rolled ankles but you can allow proper strength and conditioning to ward off soft tissue injuries and also allow adequate recuperation before putting a player back on the park.

Are we asking too much of certain players to the point where we push them to breaking point? I’m concerned with our management of Weitering who I suspect was asked to play on through injury a) because he was good and b) in an attempt to harden him up. Cripps carries such a heavy workload, especially in the absence of Murphy, that he’s also in danger of breaking. With nothing to lose this season we could even give him some weeks off.

How does Bolton go tactically on match day. Does he need assistance in the form of a mentor?

Some of our match day selections seem confusing. Is the focus development rather than results? At some point the latter must take precedence.

How do I feel two years and 6 games into the rebuild?…still sceptical but prepared to give it a little longer!

...and thats all you need to know about the rebuild.

Keeps the wolves at bay. Allows the club to 'get on with it' for longer before the scrutiny comes.

I know you were suggesting it would come midway through last year from memory...but its lasted almost a full 12 months on that before any questions have really been raised and even then, its only the beginning.

The club has bought time, but its not an infinite amount.

Questions remain, and so they should, we've got nothing apart from hope thus far.

Yep...it's actually surprised me the length of time that's gone by before the first signs of unrest.
That tells me the club has done a very good job of 'selling' it.
So kudos at least for that. ;)

Yep...it's actually surprised me the length of time that's gone by before the first signs of unrest.
That tells me the club has done a very good job of 'selling' it.
So kudos at least for that. ;)

Or our supporters are so used to failure they just accept their fate now and its only a few tragics/fanatics who bother to question where we are heading.....

Or our supporters are so used to failure they just accept their fate now and its only a few tragics/fanatics who bother to question where we are heading.....

West Coast game a couple of weeks ago was my first game for the year and I was struck by the low crowd numbers, 27,000 approximately., even the Blazer bar on level 1 in the MCC members was shut! No doubt the interest amongst our supporter base has dropped off and frankly we are not offering much up at the moment to make them want to watch us. I'm really hoping for a better showing in the second half of the year as right now we are largely irrelevant in the competition.

West Coast game a couple of weeks ago was my first game for the year and I was struck by the low crowd numbers, 27,000 approximately., even the Blazer bar on level 1 in the MCC members was shut! No doubt the interest amongst our supporter base has dropped off and frankly we are not offering much up at the moment to make them want to watch us. I'm really hoping for a better showing in the second half of the year as right now we are largely irrelevant in the competition.

The recent disruptions to rail services has been a big factor in my non attendance over recent weeks. I plan to go again for the Bummer game. TV this week.

I'm getting on a flight to Adelaide tomorrow morning. ;D

Then next week going with a group of mates to the Bombers game and if we lose that I'm done for the year.

I’ll admit it… I’m a rebuild sceptic...a rebuild denier even!
I have been from the start. I saw the announcement that we were rebuilding as a delaying tactic to ward off criticism of our position at the time. It came at a time when we were getting confident messages from the coach at the start of the year, only to fall in a heap in the early stages of that season.
It came in the middle of a power tussle that eventually saw the demise of the coach. You could tell that as far as he was concerned ‘rebuild’ was a bit of a dirty word.
2015 was a bad year made worse by that turmoil. After Malthouse left the agenda was probably more designed towards ensuring the best draft pick possible.

So once you start on a rebuild/reset you virtually have no choice but to follow it through. It’s not something you can change your mind about once you cut deeply into a list.
Silvagni and Bolton were, on the surface, pretty obvious choices to be the builders. The process for choosing Bolton was transparent and thorough.

My concerns are…
Have we cut too deeply leaving no depth or experience?

Would we have been in a better position with a less radical approach?

Have we made the right choices in terms of building a balanced list?

Has our deplorable development of young players improved? Our skills and decision making still seem to require more work.

Are our medical folk on top of things given some of the injuries, which seem in some cases to be overuse injuries. You can’t help rolled ankles but you can allow proper strength and conditioning to ward off soft tissue injuries and also allow adequate recuperation before putting a player back on the park.

Are we asking too much of certain players to the point where we push them to breaking point? I’m concerned with our management of Weitering who I suspect was asked to play on through injury a) because he was good and b) in an attempt to harden him up. Cripps carries such a heavy workload, especially in the absence of Murphy, that he’s also in danger of breaking. With nothing to lose this season we could even give him some weeks off.

How does Bolton go tactically on match day. Does he need assistance in the form of a mentor?

Some of our match day selections seem confusing. Is the focus development rather than results? At some point the latter must take precedence.

How do I feel two years and 6 games into the rebuild?…still sceptical but prepared to give it a little longer!

Love this post. Well done. Been sharing similar thoughts but so deep is the cave I have been in relating to footy and CFC haven't posted for ages..
My thoughts..
6 games in confirms you can't go inexperienced in so many key positions on the ground and expect to have depth in the twos. I only hope they stop playing guys who have been injured back in the ones so quickly.
If we don't find some pacey forwards who can impose pressure both in defending the ball in and impacting the score board on our current list, this must become a recruiting priority!
We still need to inject more pace.
As far as Bolton goes. I really like his focus and energy. I can only hope like many supporters he has the confidence of the players. What they are saying versus what they are showing makes me concerned. The effort in round 2 versus Gold Coast was atrocious. Hasn't improved too much since. The lack of tackles last game confirms this. Stats don't lie. 13 players had between 1-2 tackles for the match. So you combine lack of effort with lack of pace and you are miles behind. If the effort meter doesn't improve I'm not sure we are heading the right way. Games and experience certainly counts, but if the effort and skill doesn't then what are we achieving this year?

Pacy mids more important than pacy forwards....

And top quality, established mids at that.

We need 2. Fast!

Pacy mids more important than pacy forwards....

And top quality, established mids at that.

We need 2. Fast!

Let's settle on pace is pace all over the ground as the way current players cluster around the ball forwards play equal time in defence!! Our inability to get free possession out of the contested area is a massive concern. We have Cripps and recruited Kennedy for this, but no one to run and carry it fwd. A Shiel type for me is a massive requirement.

We do have Fisher (finding his feet quickly), Lang (should be in the 1s next week), SPS (presently on holidays), Garlett (needs to get involved more but oozes class) and Pickett (cursed) to provide outside run....

But they're (other than Lang) something of a WIP?

And yes, if SOS can snare Shiel, bloody fantastic.

Indeed, whilst contracted to the end of 2019, don't be surprised to see this bloke in a Blues' jumper next season.  ;) :o

Would i swap a #1 pick or similar for Shiel? Every day of the week. Ditto Kelly for that matter.

A risk vs a known quantity... no brainer.

We do have Fisher (finding his feet quickly), Lang (should be in the 1s next week), SPS (presently on holidays), Garlett (needs to get involved more but oozes class) and Pickett (cursed) to provide outside run....

But they're (other than Lang) something of a WIP?

And yes, if SOS can snare Shiel, bloody fantastic.

Indeed, whilst contracted to the end of 2019, don't be surprised to see this bloke in a Blues' jumper next season.  ;) :o

Would i swap a #1 pick or similar for Shiel? Every day of the week. Ditto Kelly for that matter.

A risk vs a known quantity... no brainer.

No low picks traded for mids, if we are to trade a low pick it has to be for a mature, durable and proven KPF to bridge the gap between the current youth and the next 3 or 4 years.

You really think Lynch (GC Lynch) would make more difference than a Dylan Shiel to our team?

Your dreamin'  ::) ::)

You really think Lynch (GC Lynch) would make more difference than a Dylan Shiel to our team?

Your dreamin'  ::) ::)

Hard to argue either case to be honest as we could use both.

Anyone saying no to either is gilding the lilly slightly.

Reminder, Richmond recruited 3 players in the season prior to winning a flag:

An inside hard nut in Prestia.

A workman who can hurt you on the outside but play a tough accountable role in Caddy.

A ruckman who is in the prime of his career in Nankervis.

They didnt do one or the other.  They identified a few targets and landed them all.

You really think Lynch (GC Lynch) would make more difference than a Dylan Shiel to our team?

Your dreamin'  ::) ::)

We are far more deficient in KPF role models and leaders than in our midfield, in the mdifield we can see the rise of Fisher, alongside Cripps and others. It's no accident the club want Cripps to push forward, which robs Peter to pay Paul!

In my opinion our young tall KPFs are still some years off being reliable, consistent and competitive, I suspect at least 3 or 4 years based on the progress of other AFL talls. They typically come good in their 4th or 5th season, that is playing season not years on the list! Typically guys 25 or 26 are entering the performance zone. Most AFL talls are on a list for a season or two before they get a run at AFL level!

Our young mids with more games under their wing will sort itself out within a season or two at most. Fisher, Pickett, SPS, O'Brien and Dow will sort itself out within another season or two, guys age 22 or 23 are entering the performance zone.

Hard to argue either case to be honest as we could use both.

Anyone saying no to either is gilding the lilly slightly.

Reminder, Richmond recruited 3 players in the season prior to winning a flag:

An inside hard nut in Prestia.

A workman who can hurt you on the outside but play a tough accountable role in Caddy.

A ruckman who is in the prime of his career in Nankervis.

They didnt do one or the other.  They identified a few targets and landed them all.

I'd call those three the finishing touch to their list, Shiel is more of a core player like Martin or Cotchin IMO...
Caddy has been the real surprise...tough ,intimidating and a goal kicker, exactly what we need and very hard to obtain....

I reckon Doc is on the money.

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2018-05-03/docherty-midfield-to-blossom

We are far more deficient in KPF role models and leaders than in our midfield, in the mdifield we can see the rise of Fisher, alongside Cripps and others. It's no accident the club want Cripps to push forward, which robs Peter to pay Paul!

In my opinion our young tall KPFs are still some years off being reliable, consistent and competitive, I suspect at least 3 or 4 years based on the progress of other AFL talls. They typically come good in their 4th or 5th season, that is playing season not years on the list! Typically guys 25 or 26 are entering the performance zone. Most AFL talls are on a list for a season or two before they get a run at AFL level!

Our young mids with more games under their wing will sort itself out within a season or two at most. Fisher, Pickett, SPS, O'Brien and Dow will sort itself out within another season or two, guys age 22 or 23 are entering the performance zone.

Get the midfield dominant, the goals come as a result....

Not the other way round.....  :o

Get the midfield dominant, the goals come as a result....

Not the other way round.....  :o

The midfield is already sorted, it just needs the time and stability, any reasonable person can see that!

I'd call those three the finishing touch to their list, Shiel is more of a core player like Martin or Cotchin IMO...
Caddy has been the real surprise...tough ,intimidating and a goal kicker, exactly what we need and very hard to obtain....

No doubt EB1, thats why I am stating it shouldnt be an either argument, but BOTH and a bonus of as many others as we can.

We should be looking at more types who are surplus to requirements and looking to extend their careers somewhat.

No doubt EB1, thats why I am stating it shouldnt be an either argument, but BOTH and a bonus of as many others as we can.

We should be looking at more types who are surplus to requirements and looking to extend their careers somewhat.

We wanted Caddy for this very reason, but I'm not sure he'd prove durable in our side, it's much easier to do this alongside Dusty and Cotch than to try it solo!

Bartel makes a good point, who'd have thunk we need a mature experienced proven KPF! ::)

Tom Lynch wouldn't do you much good sitting in forward 50 catching a cold with the ball not getting down there. Bartel's point came across as if he was making it up on the spot which is why it was probably so poorly thought out.

Gaff / Dalhouse / Sloane / etc. are absolutely who we should be targeting. If you have more than 2 or 3 tall forwards you can't fit them all in your team and you can survive with only 1 - as Richmond have shown.

If you have 10+ midfielders you can definitely fit them in your team. We start a game with 3 guys carrying legitimate credentials as midfielders. The opposition have 13. That is where we're getting slaughtered and where we need so much more quality.

We are patiently waiting for the kids to mature and we will continue to do so but we need to load up from other clubs - in the midfield.

Tom Lynch wouldn't do you much good sitting in forward 50 catching a cold with the ball not getting down there. Bartel's point came across as if he was making it up on the spot which is why it was probably so poorly thought out.

So far this season the Inside Fifty difference between the top and bottom is not that great, but we are by far the worst team at turning an entry into a goal, we are dead last on the table the scoring efficiency, which is reflected by our low standing for goals and goal assists!

We have about 80% of the top teams Inside Fifties, but only 60% of their goals and 50% of their goal assists.

Tom Lynch or any other useful tall forward would get at least 80% of the opportunities that are delivered by the top teams.

We're woefully deficient in midfielders, and will remain that way for 2-3 years unless we bring in some ready mades

A decent midfield covers a lot if sins.

We do have Fisher (finding his feet quickly), Lang (should be in the 1s next week), SPS (presently on holidays), Garlett (needs to get involved more but oozes class) and Pickett (cursed) to provide outside run....

O'Brien will be a beauty.

The midfield is already sorted, it just needs the time and stability, any reasonable person can see that!

I started a post earlier today to argue against this and ended up scrapping it because I came around to the opinion that it was looking pretty promising.


We have known quantities in Cripps, Murphy, Ed Curnow

Kennedy and Lang we'll have to wait until they're fully fit.

Fisher looks like a long term player for us.

SPS Cunningham Polson have potential... it depends on their development.

Dow and O'Brien the same.

Throw Docherty into the mix, which may possibly have been the intention if he hadn't been injured, and it doesn't look too bad.

With the one qualification that our development of these young players has to be better than it's been in the past.

...and a tilt at an available elite midfielder wouldn't go astray ;)

O'Brien will be a beauty.

Totally agree. Something special about this kid.

Positively masochistic!

;D Been in pain since the early 2000's, with a brief breath of fresh air when Judd came across, then back to more pain since Ratts was given the boot. Although not having won a game in our last 14? Outings I am sticking fat and being patient.
The amount of top end talent we have is absurd. Another 50-60 games together and we will be rewarded.

Problem that we will deal with as does every bottom club is player retention. Free agency has sorted it good and proper. Our jury list atm is concerning as well. But this "reset" is going to have its ups and downs and right now we are in a very down period. Only way is up from here. Must sign Cripps to a 9 year $8 million deal  >:D and give him the captaincy with Doc next year

;D Been in pain since the early 2000's, with a brief breath of fresh air when Judd came across, then back to more pain since Ratts was given the boot. Although not having won a game in our last 14? Outings I am sticking fat and being patient.
The amount of top end talent we have is absurd. Another 50-60 games together and we will be rewarded.

Problem that we will deal with as does every bottom club is player retention. Free agency has sorted it good and proper. Our jury list atm is concerning as well. But this "reset" is going to have its ups and downs and right now we are in a very down period. Only way is up from here. Must sign Cripps to a 9 year $8 million deal  >:D and give him the captaincy with Doc next year

Agree with except:
- No more fat cat deals for anyone no matter what. Creates instability amongst the group when one or two are taking the majority of the cap. History tells us this. Need to to create a environment where players want to stay and be part of something special. Financial reward becomes secondary (refer Geel and Haw). Fellas like Cripps and Charlie fit this profile.
- Dont agree with multiple captains. With Murph out, Crippa has had a chance to strut his stuff and he is captain material personified IMO. Shame Doc isnt available to have a go and show his wears. I dont dont he has the right stuff, would like to see it though. At seasons end, I think it will come down to Murph wanting to pass the baton and then players picking either Doc or Crippa.

I started a post earlier today to argue against this and ended up scrapping it because I came around to the opinion that it was looking pretty promising.


We have known quantities in Cripps, Murphy, Ed Curnow

Kennedy and Lang we'll have to wait until they're fully fit.

Fisher looks like a long term player for us.

SPS Cunningham Polson have potential... it depends on their development.

Dow and O'Brien the same.

Throw Docherty into the mix, which may possibly have been the intention if he hadn't been injured, and it doesn't look too bad.

With the one qualification that our development of these young players has to be better than it's been in the past.

...and a tilt at an available elite midfielder wouldn't go astray ;)

All this sounds fine until Cripps says he wants to go home.  :o

I am very nervous he hasnt resigned......if it happens we are well and truly stuffed and no amount of spin from the club will get us out of the sh1te we will be in....

All this sounds fine until Cripps says he wants to go home.  :o

I am very nervous he hasnt resigned......if it happens we are well and truly stuffed and no amount of spin from the club will get us out of the sh1te we will be in....

There's actually nothing there that's a guarantee.
Injury, lack of recovery, lack of development, player discontent could all decimate the midfield we're setting up.
Some things are out of our control.
But you're right Shawny....we control the things we can, and re-signing Cripps is a priority.
They will come for him in waves.

There's actually nothing there that's a guarantee.
Injury, lack of recovery, lack of development, player discontent could all decimate the midfield we're setting up.
Some things are out of our control.
But you're right Shawny....we control the things we can, and re-signing Cripps is a priority.
They will come for him in waves.

I have no intel but its just my personal belief he wont go anywhere. If by some chance though he has decided to put contract talks off, then there is nothing the Club can do about it. I have no doubt they are trying to tie him up long term, if he doesn't want to (I think he wants to be a 1 club player), what can the club do? If he is driven by money and/or go home factor, there is nothing we can do.

I have no intel but its just my personal belief he wont go anywhere. If by some chance though he has decided to put contract talks off, then there is nothing the Club can do about it. I have no doubt they are trying to tie him up long term, if he doesn't want to (I think he wants to be a 1 club player), what can the club do? If he is driven by money and/or go home factor, there is nothing we can do.

I agree there's nothing we can do if he wants out but imagine the media and fan uproar.

The rebuild will be seen as a farce if the one true superstar we have leaves before we even become competitive.

By the time Cripps contract is up Murphy will be pretty much gone and Ed will be in his last few years and he is no A grader.

That means our midfield will be led by who? Its a disaster if this eventuates.  

No matter how positive we can be one thing is certain, we will go backwards again if we cant get his signature. Have to retain Cripps and get in a Gaff, Wines, etc to be able to compete well with the better midfield groups. 

I have no intel but its just my personal belief he wont go anywhere. If by some chance though he has decided to put contract talks off, then there is nothing the Club can do about it. I have no doubt they are trying to tie him up long term, if he doesn't want to (I think he wants to be a 1 club player), what can the club do? If he is driven by money and/or go home factor, there is nothing we can do.

If I were Cripps I would be keeping my powder dry for now and keeping a close eye on how the rebuild is panning out. I would think he would prefer to be a one club player but if it becomes apparent to him that the rebuild is not going to amount to anything he may move on rather than spend the rest of his career on struggle street. What he does decide will be a very good indicator.

If I were Cripps I would be keeping my powder dry for now and keeping a close eye on how the rebuild is panning out. I would think he would prefer to be a one club player but if it becomes apparent to him that the rebuild is not going to amount to anything he may move on rather than spend the rest of his career on struggle street. What he does decide will be a very good indicator.

Cookie I'd bet the family jewels he knows right now whether its on the right track and he wants to be part of it or not.

Cookie I'd bet the family jewels he knows right now whether its on the right track and he wants to be part of it or not.

I don't know GTC but he's certainly putting his heart and soul into it so let's take that as a vote in!  8)

All this sounds fine until Cripps says he wants to go home.  :o

I am very nervous he hasnt resigned......if it happens we are well and truly stuffed and no amount of spin from the club will get us out of the sh1te we will be in....

He should be pretty wary of jumping ship too soon.

Buckley was in a hurry to get home back in the day, to play in a more competitive side. Missed the Lions 3-peat as a result.  :-[ >:D

Cripps probably has a better idea than any of us as to the state of the club.
His decision will go along way to determining opinions of where we're really at.

It would be a blow to confidence should he choose to go and a big boost should he decide to stay and be a part of any success.

Cripps probably has a better idea than any of us as to the state of the club.
His decision will go along way to determining opinions of where we're really at.

It would be a blow to confidence should he choose to go and a big boost should he decide to stay and be a part of any success.

A bellweather.

A Weather Cock, hopefully pointing East

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/b7/06/1fb706d20bdc6e0303123588e9af5b60.jpg)

A bellweather.

It's a Bellwether Cookie, a leading sheep, it's not raining bells! ;D

We need two things to further our progress.

In the short term we need a fair dinkum structural KPF, McKay is some years away, our current KPFs play more like a Darling role next to Kennedy, we need a Kennedy. Long term McKay looks capable, Kerr looks capable too, but long term.

Darling was able to step up and change roles to fill Kennedy's shoes for a game or two, but nobody will claim Darling can do that for a season, in finals or in the additional absence of other talls like Naitanui or Lycett! Kennedy in that way is structural, that is what we need!

Secondly, we need at least one other A-Grade midfielder to allow Cripps a breather, the other mids we have now are just support acts and if this keeps up we'll run Cripps into the ground! Making him captain too soon could be a millstone for him, he looks like he is willing to harm himself for a short term benefit! If he gets something like OP we are stuffed! Ideally, someone with a bit more pace that doesn't break our bank!

When you saw Dow, O'Brien and Fisher next to Yolmen or Greenwood, it was clear our guys are the future outside. None of them have the size to be serious inside chop-outs for the Cripps types.

It's a Bellwether Cookie, a leading sheep, it's not raining bells! ;D

We need two things to further our progress.

In the short term we need a fair dinkum structural KPF, McKay is some years away, our current KPFs play more like a Darling role next to Kennedy, we need a Kennedy. Long term McKay looks capable, Kerr looks capable too, but long term.

Darling was able to step up and change roles to fill Kennedy's shoes for a game or two, but nobody will claim Darling can do that for a season, in finals or in the additional absence of other talls like Naitanui or Lycett! Kennedy in that way is structural, that is what we need!

Secondly, we need at least one other A-Grade midfielder to allow Cripps a breather, the other mids we have now are just support acts and if this keeps up we'll run Cripps into the ground! Making him captain too soon could be a millstone for him, he looks like he is willing to harm himself for a short term benefit! If he gets something like OP we are stuffed! Ideally, someone with a bit more pace that doesn't break our bank!

When you saw Dow, O'Brien and Fisher next to Yolmen or Greenwood, it was clear our guys are the future outside. None of them have the size to be serious inside chop-outs for the Cripps types.

I didn't know whether it was a bell or not tbh?

As you say Cripps needs a big bodied partner to back him up - we've been calling for it on here for some time.

It's a Bellwether Cookie, a leading sheep, it's not raining bells! ;D

We need two things to further our progress.

In the short term we need a fair dinkum structural KPF, McKay is some years away, our current KPFs play more like a Darling role next to Kennedy, we need a Kennedy. Long term McKay looks capable, Kerr looks capable too, but long term.

Darling was able to step up and change roles to fill Kennedy's shoes for a game or two, but nobody will claim Darling can do that for a season, in finals or in the additional absence of other talls like Naitanui or Lycett! Kennedy in that way is structural, that is what we need!

Secondly, we need at least one other A-Grade midfielder to allow Cripps a breather, the other mids we have now are just support acts and if this keeps up we'll run Cripps into the ground! Making him captain too soon could be a millstone for him, he looks like he is willing to harm himself for a short term benefit! If he gets something like OP we are stuffed! Ideally, someone with a bit more pace that doesn't break our bank!

When you saw Dow, O'Brien and Fisher next to Yolmen or Greenwood, it was clear our guys are the future outside. None of them have the size to be serious inside chop-outs for the Cripps types.

Agree..I think we lack two more big mids, Dow is a decent height but his game isnt based around being a coalface grunt, once Greenwood had locked up Cripps the game was over....
Cripps looks on the verge of losing it too...he is sick of the close tagging, being run into the ground every game and looks really frustrated and his disposal looks like that of a tired man....
Of Urgency in the off season is two readymade bigger framed mids just to help preserve Cripps.....

If somebody wants to know why building too much of a stronger midfield is stupid, have a look at Nthmond playing Freo.

Nthmond are basically surrendering the midfield clearances, while Nthmond's HB line is destroying Freo on turnovers, rebounds and counter attacks.

We have a midfield that wins, and a HB line that creates turnovers, but we also have HBFs who turn the ball over on counter-attack and small forwards who don't chase! Our winning in the midfield or at stoppages is like winning a ticket to nowhere!

Kennedy will be one of those 2 big mids we need. He had no preseason and has been playing with a bad ankle. I thought he showed some better signs last night and gave us a glimpse of what he will bring when he's right

In the battle of mids vs kpf and what we require more....how about this for a solution...

We recruit a genuine key forward. Lets say Lynch.

We let Curnowfides loose in the midfield.

Then we have Cripps and Curnowfides running through the midfield, as well as our smaller 'outside types' and we suddenly have depth.

Then with our new KPF (lynch) tagteaming with McKay, and potentially Casboult or Kerr and SOJ.......and soj2.0 along with him.

On Game Day today Carey named Curnow as one of the top 5 forwards in the game and said he could end up being the best of the lot...at least since Franklin

Kennedy will be one of those 2 big mids we need. He had no preseason and has been playing with a bad ankle. I thought he showed some better signs last night and gave us a glimpse of what he will bring when he's right

Apart from his fitness he also lacks a bit of class with his disposal, he isnt bad just not at that elite level, apart from Fisher and OBrien its a very unreliable group of mids headed by Cripps with regard kicking skills..

Apart from his fitness he also lacks a bit of class with his disposal, he isnt bad just not at that elite level, apart from Fisher and OBrien its a very unreliable group of mids headed by Cripps with regard kicking skills..

Cripps field kicking has been very good lately. Its his kicking for goal that's been letting us down.

Cripps field kicking has been very good lately. Its his kicking for goal that's been letting us down.

Its funny how you see games and what the disposal stats say, Ed Curnow is a very ordinary disposer IMo but went at 80% last night, Lochie OBrien was at 60% but is a good kick IMO
Kerridge was another who went at 80% but the real surprise was OShea who went at 81%...cannot believe that as he has been atrocious with his disposal IMO...
Cripps was at 68%.....average but not great, SPS was at 50%, Dow at 60%..

Laird for the Crows was close to BOG with 32 possies at 81%...thats going to hurt with him setting up out of the backline and why Bolton's coaching at times frustrates me......its no secret Laird is their Docherty and a big factor in the cohesive way they play but was just allowed to run free and do his thing....

Cripps field kicking has been very good lately. Its his kicking for goal that's been letting us down.

I just got through detailing this exact point in another thread.

Over his career Cripps has had 73 shots on goal and has kicked just 22 of them. 37 behinds and 14 complete misses. That equates to a pathetic GA of 30.1%
 :-[

I just got through detailing this exact point in another thread.

Over his career Cripps has had 73 shots on goal and has kicked just 22 of them. 37 behinds and 14 complete misses. That equates to a pathetic GA of 30.1%
 :-[

That's bad, he needs to spend some time with Rocca.  It seems to be a mental thing as his kicks are going straight but his aiming is off.
I thought his field kicking was a big improvement last week Elwood and equally his decision making.

I have put together a together an under 25 team from our current list:
B:   Byrne Macreadie Marchbank
HB: Plowman Weitering Docherty
C:   Lang Cripps Dow
HF: Petrovski-Seton Curnow Garlett
F:   Picket McKay Kerr
R:   De Konning Kennedy Fisher
I/C: Silvagni O'Brien Cunningham Williamson
Emg: Polson Schumacher LeBois
Back-up: Glass-McCasker McCaid
The question we need to ask is how good will this side be in three to four years time when they would be entering their prime, both individually and as a team, particularly as there is likely to be a further fifteen to twenty additional new players brought into the squad over that time

LeBois won't make it.   Poor first year,  now a busted collarbone.  He's coming from a loooooong way back.

LeBois won't make it.   Poor first year,  now a busted collarbone.  He's coming from a loooooong way back.

Tend to agree, probably be a good rookie for the Crows, needs a good team with some bigger bodies, very light and injury prone IMO.
Has good skills and can cherry pick a goal but probably doesnt suit our list IMO.....at the Crows he could play the Charlie " the apprentice" Cameron role
to Eddie...

He needs to be stockpiled by a club,  left in the minor leagues to develop his body etc for a couple of years.   A luxury this club can't afford.   Maybe we just drafted him too early in his development ?

He needs to be stockpiled by a club,  left in the minor leagues to develop his body etc for a couple of years.   A luxury this club can't afford.   Maybe we just drafted him too early in his development ?

Agree...probably needed another season or two with North Adelaide.....you look at Parfitt from Geelong, similar type but has blossomed playing with the Cats star studded midfield, no freebies or gimme kicks/goals with us, its everyman for himself but down at the Cattery players like Parfitt and Kelly can just come straight in  get some easy kicks and blend into the successful system.

I have put together a together an under 25 team from our current list:
B:   Byrne Macreadie Marchbank
HB: Plowman Weitering Docherty
C:   Lang Cripps Dow
HF: Petrovski-Seton Curnow Garlett
F:   Picket McKay Kerr
R:   De Konning Kennedy Fisher
I/C: Silvagni O'Brien Cunningham Williamson
Emg: Polson Schumacher LeBois
Back-up: Glass-McCasker McCaid
The question we need to ask is how good will this side be in three to four years time when they would be entering their prime, both individually and as a team, particularly as there is likely to be a further fifteen to twenty additional new players brought into the squad over that time

I think you have nailed the future Bluey, we are literally biding our time until this team matures in at least three more years. If this is the case then why not take a leaf out of Sheedy's '93 book and play this team with the likes of Murph, Kreuser, Daisey and Jones until one by one they are replaced by the next gen. That is how you build synergy, play them together regardless of results in the short term because that team has premiership written all over it (who knows how good some of the "next 20" could be either!?!)

I have put together a together an under 25 team from our current list:
B:   Byrne Macreadie Marchbank
HB: Plowman Weitering Docherty
C:   Lang Cripps Dow
HF: Petrovski-Seton Curnow Garlett
F:   Picket McKay Kerr
R:   De Konning Kennedy Fisher
I/C: Silvagni O'Brien Cunningham Williamson
Emg: Polson Schumacher LeBois
Back-up: Glass-McCasker McCaid
The question we need to ask is how good will this side be in three to four years time when they would be entering their prime, both individually and as a team, particularly as there is likely to be a further fifteen to twenty additional new players brought into the squad over that time

Good stuff, well done. Delivers an excellent perspective. :)

I think you have nailed the future Bluey, we are literally biding our time until this team matures in at least three more years. If this is the case then why not take a leaf out of Sheedy's '93 book and play this team with the likes of Murph, Kreuser, Daisey and Jones until one by one they are replaced by the next gen. That is how you build synergy, play them together regardless of results in the short term because that team has premiership written all over it (who knows how good some of the "next 20" could be either!?!)

Yep
I mentioned in another thread that there is "getting games into kids" and "getting games into kids - together"
The latter is far more valuable.
You also need that group of three of four senior players for a little bit of support and guidance.
They have to be the right type of player though.
Ones that keep working their backsides off despite the state of the game....I'd probably add someone like Ed Curnow to that group.

We'd have to sell it, but I think most folk ...even old sceptics like myself, would wear a season of pain for the benefits.
I just have the feeling it would fast track the progress.

The only danger is another bad season with injuries could be an absolute disaster.

I have put together a together an under 25 team from our current list:
B:   Byrne Macreadie Marchbank
HB: Plowman Weitering Docherty
C:   Lang Cripps Dow
HF: Petrovski-Seton Curnow Garlett
F:   Picket McKay Kerr
R:   De Konning Kennedy Fisher
I/C: Silvagni O'Brien Cunningham Williamson
Emg: Polson Schumacher LeBois
Back-up: Glass-McCasker McCaid
The question we need to ask is how good will this side be in three to four years time when they would be entering their prime, both individually and as a team, particularly as there is likely to be a further fifteen to twenty additional new players brought into the squad over that time

Great post - a very solid team, with much upside...

Especially when you add a few new players, including a couple of A graders - presently not at the Club - to that list (but in that age bracket, or thereabouts).

Next year we may add B. Silvagni (key forward) and trade for Gaff, Shiel etc.

Noting both Kelly and Shiel contracted to the end of 2019, but with one year left, and if GWS stumbles again....these type of blokes might be keen to move sooner than later.

Would I swap our first draft pick in 2018 for Shiel? In a heartbeat.....a proven high quality performer versus a kid who may or not be something in years tpo come (or SOS may split the #1 or #2 pick into two lower first round picks and then throw in one of our 2nd round picks as well for Shiel?)

Gaff will simply be a matter of $ - of which we have plenty....

2018 is a write off - we all accept that now.

Even by 2019, the young lads will be approaching the 50-75 game bracket - and hopefully we'll get an even break with respect to injuries...

Great post - a very solid team, with much upside...

Especially when you add a few new players, including a couple of A graders - presently not at the Club - to that list (but in that age bracket, or thereabouts).

Next year we may add B. Silvagni (key forward) and trade for Gaff, Shiel etc.

Noting both Kelly and Shiel contracted to the end of 2019, but with one year left, and if GWS stumbles again....these type of blokes might be keen to move sooner than later.

Would I swap our first draft pick in 2018 for Shiel? In a heartbeat.....a proven high quality performer versus a kid who may or not be something in years tpo come (or SOS may split the #1 or #2 pick into two lower first round picks and then throw in one of our 2nd round picks as well for Shiel?)

Gaff will simply be a matter of $ - of which we have plenty....

2018 is a write off - we all accept that now.

Even by 2019, the young lads will be approaching the 50-75 game bracket - and hopefully we'll get an even break with respect to injuries...

Ok, so how many goals will B. Silvagni kick next year ?

Ok, so how many goals will B. Silvagni kick next year ?

It's not even clear he'll nominate yet and his progress has stalled a little, as others in his age group have caught up with him physically, but he's got many of the required physical attributes for AFL.

Not sure he has the focus, aggression or desire! A mate down at Frankston at the weekend who's still a little involved with TAC Cup said he could be anything, like Nathan Ablett!

It's not even clear he'll nominate yet and his progress has stalled a little, as others in his age group have caught up with him physically, but he's got many of the required physical attributes for AFL.

Not sure he has the focus, aggression or desire! A mate down at Frankston at the weekend who's still a little involved with TAC Cup said he could be anything, like Nathan Ablett!

It could also be that hes simply foxing.

If they have shown a lot until TAC cup year, and were touted as being the next big thing, and then they taper off, expect it to be more gamesmanship than anything else.

It could also be that hes simply foxing.

If they have shown a lot until TAC cup year, and were touted as being the next big thing, and then they taper off, expect it to be more gamesmanship than anything else.

Seriously Thry it doesn't work like that at all, the TAC Cup coaches have some pride in the work they do! ;)

If they got even a whiff a kid was disingenuous they'd be cut, the competition for spots is hot!

BoJ has the gig because he's shown the ability, nobody is sure at all about his commitment to making it a career! But you can be sure, assuming an injury free run, they'll put him to the sword by the end of this season and everyone will know!

Seriously Thry it doesn't work like that at all, the TAC Cup coaches have some pride in the work they do! ;)

If they got even a whiff a kid was disingenuous they'd be cut, the competition for spots is hot!

BoJ has the gig because he's shown the ability, nobody is sure at all about his commitment to making it a career! But you can be sure, assuming an injury free run, they'll put him to the sword by the end of this season and everyone will know!

I have an ankle/knee/hamstring/big workload at school, broke up with my girlfriend, not taking my marks, down on confidence, down on form.

Lets call a spade a spade LP.

We have no idea.  These kids are kids.  I have played with some kids.  Sometimes they just Ceebs doing training because FML, FISHYOLO and i'd rather be on insta chasing skirt right now.

or they can be like Fogarty and simply state that they will return home at the first opportunity.

I have an ankle/knee/hamstring/big workload at school, broke up with my girlfriend, not taking my marks, down on confidence, down on form.

Lets call a spade a spade LP.

We have no idea.  These kids are kids.  I have played with some kids.  Sometimes they just Ceebs doing training because FML, FISHYOLO and i'd rather be on insta chasing skirt right now.

or they can be like Fogarty and simply state that they will return home at the first opportunity.

TAC Cup coaches would lose their job if clubs thought the info they were given wasn't genuine or accurate, they are basically employed by the AFL on behalf of the clubs, that is their job!

What players say to club recruiters is completely different and out of the control of the development coaches, that info will however be cross referenced to the reports generated by TAC Cup coaches and list managers. That is the reality we know, it's not speculation.

Also the Fogarty case is interesting, because there are just as many players who openly want the flipside like Schache and pull the pin when things do not work out! If Fogarty wasn't getting a game would his tune change? Even so, that is a different issue to the way Development coaches assess players.

2019

Ok, so how many goals will B. Silvagni kick next year ?

Where did I say he'd even get a game in 2019?

 :o ??? ::) ::) :-[

In 4-5 years time though, God willing, 50+

We need to keep getting in young top end talent like B. Silvagni seems to be but I also believe we should be getting a priority pick this year which could be used for trading in a good player like Dylan Shiels. The problem we have at the moment is that we don't have a base of players that allow the bringing in of young players in a supported and positive winning culture. The current under 25 side must be the base from which we can build decades of success. To keep building we really need to be bringing in good ready made players and not the "O'Sheas or Muttons" who are just honest triers.

We need to keep getting in young top end talent like B. Silvagni seems to be but I also believe we should be getting a priority pick this year which could be used for trading in a good player like Dylan Shiels.

I firmly think Shiels would be a redundant pick, we've got kids who are going to be first class mids, we need a KPF to bridge the gap KPF between now and 2021!

Have a look at this week in Casboult's absence, we'll be leaving kids at the mercy of CheatsFC stalwarts like Hooker, Hurley and Goddard. We really need someone to patrol F50 and tell the young talls where to go, metaphorically speaking, we don't want any of them to leave! :o

I firmly think Shiels would be a redundant pick, we've got kids who are going to be first class mids, we need a KPF to bridge the gap KPF between now and 2021!

Have a look at this week in Casboult's absence, we'll be leaving kids at the mercy of CheatsFC stalwarts like Hooker, Hurley and Goddard. We really need someone to patrol F50 and tell the young talls where to go, metaphorically speaking, we don't want any of them to leave! :o

I may easily be wrong as I don't know our player payments in detail, but surely we can afford to pay overs to get Tom Lynch as a free agent and still have plenty of room to still get one or more of Sloane, Gaff or Shiel?

In season 2019 just who are we paying to come within cooee of the salary cap? Our only close to high price players could be Cripps, Docherty, Kreuzer and maybe an improving Curnow.

I'm all for the rebuild/reset, but we need to get just one or two experienced AND quality players to set the example and show the young upcoming cohort how to kick butt and take names.

2019
Where did I say he'd even get a game in 2019?

 :o ??? ::) ::) :-[

In 4-5 years time though, God willing, 50+

You always seem to think that recruits should get games straight away and perform at a high level, so I was just wondering what sort of expectations Ben would be subjected to ?

I may easily be wrong as I don't know our player payments in detail, but surely we can afford to pay overs to get Tom Lynch as a free agent and still have plenty of room to still get one or more of Sloane, Gaff or Shiel?

In season 2019 just who are we paying to come within cooee of the salary cap? Our only close to high price players could be Cripps, Docherty, Kreuzer and maybe an improving Curnow.

I'm all for the rebuild/reset, but we need to get just one or two experienced AND quality players to set the example and show the young upcoming cohort how to kick butt and take names.

Barbs Lynch (GC) is an overrated spud. I have said this before, he has only kicked a few bags against us and I wouldn't touch him with a 40ft pole. Not saying I wouldn't pay overs for a big fish, just saying he isn't the one IMO.

Barbs Lynch (GC) is an overrated spud. I have said this before, he has only kicked a few bags against us and I wouldn't touch him with a 40ft pole. Not saying I wouldn't pay overs for a big fish, just saying he isn't the one IMO.

Rumour has it Richmond have thrown 1.4 million at lynch per season.  Is doing alright for someone you're not interested in.

I actually agree with you though.  Screw the big recruit just keep building and grab the types looking to extend their career who might need a change of scenery (a Brian lake type but a forward).

Pick-up the odd delisted gem as well and go on with it.  We've got a decent looking prospect in Sam fisher playing for the Northern blues.

There's ways for us to build and we might need a few bargain basement types.

Rumour has it Richmond have thrown 1.4 million at lynch per season.  Is doing alright for someone you're not interested in.

I actually agree with you though.  Screw the big recruit just keep building and grab the types looking to extend their career who might need a change of scenery (a Brian lake type but a forward).

Pick-up the odd delisted gem as well and go on with it.  We've got a decent looking prospect in Sam fisher playing for the Northern blues.

There's ways for us to build and we might need a few bargain basement types.

I like that Penrith fella in the NBs

Rumour has it Richmond have thrown 1.4 million at lynch per season.  Is doing alright for someone you're not interested in.

I actually agree with you though.  Screw the big recruit just keep building and grab the types looking to extend their career who might need a change of scenery (a Brian lake type but a forward).

Pick-up the odd delisted gem as well and go on with it.  We've got a decent looking prospect in Sam fisher playing for the Northern blues.

There's ways for us to build and we might need a few bargain basement types.

Article in the HUN about the compensation we would receive if Murph decided to go via free agency at the end of this year (ie, bugger all).  Is this a possibility ?  As we've seen with Waite, he's alienated himself from the club he played most of his career at.....and for what ?.  Is chasing a premiership in the last couple of years of your career worth it ?  I don't know, that would be up to the individual I guess.  Murph certainly wouldn't benefit financially from a move to a club in premiership contention.  Could we afford to lose yet another senior player of his class for nothing ?

For mine, I hope he stays & gets the reward in the last year of his career similar to Shane Crawford !!!

cheers

As we've seen with Waite, he's alienated himself from the club he played most of his career at.....and for what ?.  Is chasing a premiership in the last couple of years of your career worth it ? 

Are you talking about Murphy here malo???

Are you talking about Murphy here malo???

No, he means Waite.

I can't see Murph leaving the club, unless it's due to unusual circumstances e.g he has a major falling out with the powers that be.

No, he means Waite.

I can't see Murph leaving the club, unless it's due to unusual circumstances e.g he has a major falling out with the powers that be.

No problems ...it could be read two ways.
I just wanted to clarify because I thought there might have been something in the Hun article suggesting an issue.

Article in the HUN about the compensation we would receive if Murph decided to go via free agency at the end of this year (ie, bugger all).  Is this a possibility ?  As we've seen with Waite, he's alienated himself from the club he played most of his career at.....and for what ?.  Is chasing a premiership in the last couple of years of your career worth it ?  I don't know, that would be up to the individual I guess.  Murph certainly wouldn't benefit financially from a move to a club in premiership contention.  Could we afford to lose yet another senior player of his class for nothing ?

For mine, I hope he stays & gets the reward in the last year of his career similar to Shane Crawford !!!

cheers

I got the distinct impression that Waite left purely for $s and length of contract reasons. Became a bun-fight between him and MM but that was at the heart of it.

Murphy is a real tricky one....  some think he is a soft, weak player and leader, others think he is an undersized ball winner who has been battered from pillar to post.

I would not begrudge him leaving as he has given everything to the club but personally I don't think he would leave given that he has a fair few credits built up for sticking with it during some awful times.  That said, coming to the end of his career, he may be looking for a sunset contract.

I would like the club to be in a position to play him in a forward pocket showcasing his smarts and ball use instead of trying to take on younger, faster mids 15-20 kg heavier.  Unfortunately that's a luxury we just can't afford.

At the end of the day he is a senior player, of which we have few, and I doubt the "compensation" would be anything like his value to the club.

No, he means Waite.

I can't see Murph leaving the club, unless it's due to unusual circumstances e.g he has a major falling out with the powers that be.

yep, thanks Paul....that's the angle I was coming at

Murphy is a real tricky one....  some think he is a soft, weak player and leader, others think he is an undersized ball winner who has been battered from pillar to post.

I would not begrudge him leaving as he has given everything to the club but personally I don't think he would leave given that he has a fair few credits built up for sticking with it during some awful times.  That said, coming to the end of his career, he may be looking for a sunset contract.

I would like the club to be in a position to play him in a forward pocket showcasing his smarts and ball use instead of trying to take on younger, faster mids 15-20 kg heavier.  Unfortunately that's a luxury we just can't afford.

At the end of the day he is a senior player, of which we have few, and I doubt the "compensation" would be anything like his value to the club.

We need murphy playing a Jimmy Bartel role IMHO.

That is his best skillset.  Playing around the stoppages, but not at the coal face.

Murphy is a real tricky one....  some think he is a soft, weak player and leader, others think he is an undersized ball winner who has been battered from pillar to post.

I would not begrudge him leaving as he has given everything to the club but personally I don't think he would leave given that he has a fair few credits built up for sticking with it during some awful times.  That said, coming to the end of his career, he may be looking for a sunset contract.

I would like the club to be in a position to play him in a forward pocket showcasing his smarts and ball use instead of trying to take on younger, faster mids 15-20 kg heavier.  Unfortunately that's a luxury we just can't afford.

At the end of the day he is a senior player, of which we have few, and I doubt the "compensation" would be anything like his value to the club.

Nah, this is all just The Hun Footy Editor in chief Mr Flubbo ordering a minion to stir up some crap up to distract the footy public from CheatsFC's latest set of disgraces!

Agreed, its classic Flubbo deflection.

Agree.

I was gobsmacked when I saw the headline online.  I thought, where have they pulled that from?  Trying to either make more talk about us, when clearly we don't need anyone to keep talking about us, or deflection.

I doubt Murph would leave but who knows.  I don't begrudge him anything, he has put in 100%.

People will think it's all conspiracy, but behind the scenes there are some rumors surfacing about a split at CheatsFC, Worsfold versus the old world CheatsFC establishment. A war between CheastFC inbred royalty, the cockroach and the new CheatsFC order!

It's something we should keep a close eye on and learn from, if the rumors are true we do not want to go through this with the Silvagnis!

On behalf of the entire football public, I'd like to thank the Hirds, Thompsons, Watsons and Danihers for the gift that just keeps on giving! ;D

Murphy is a poor kick, cant really work as an outsider anymore, we need OBrien/SPS doing that role, if he wants to go as a free agent and we get a decent 1st rounder as compo then its give me the paperwork and where do I sign.
We need to trade in two quality bigger built mids and since we have SFA to trade we need picks and Murphy leaving can help us.......

The Kreuzer, Gibbs, Murphy era is over and we need to let it go and cash in what we can....

People will think it's all conspiracy, but behind the scenes there are some rumors surfacing about a split at CheatsFC, Worsfold versus the old world CheatsFC establishment. A war between CheastFC inbred royalty, the cockroach and the new CheatsFC order!

It's something we should keep a close eye on and learn from, if the rumors are true we do not want to go through this with the Silvagnis!

 ;D

;D ;D ;D

People will think it's all conspiracy, but behind the scenes there are some rumors surfacing about a split at CheatsFC, Worsfold versus the old world CheatsFC establishment. A war between CheastFC inbred royalty, the cockroach and the new CheatsFC order!

It's something we should keep a close eye on and learn from, if the rumors are true we do not want to go through this with the Silvagnis!

On behalf of the entire football public, I'd like to thank the Hirds, Thompsons, Watsons and Danihers for the gift that just keeps on giving! ;D

;D ;D ;D

Why is Murphy leaving now? Have i missed something??

Why is Murphy leaving now? Have i missed something??

Murphs the new whipping boy.

Relieve Murph of the Captaincy and watch him blossom!

Hopefully the bloke is a Blue for life....

Whilst I agree his kicking isn't what it used to be I do believe that's a mental/pressure thing...

At his best, or near it, Murph was sublime.

Hopefully again.

Relieve Murph of the Captaincy and watch him blossom!

Hopefully the bloke is a Blue for life....

Whilst I agree his kicking isn't what it used to be I do believe that's a mental/pressure thing...

At his best, or near it, Murph was sublime.

Hopefully again.

x2. Can still be sublime if used in the right role.

Murphy is a poor kick, cant really work as an outsider anymore, we need OBrien/SPS doing that role, if he wants to go as a free agent and we get a decent 1st rounder as compo then its give me the paperwork and where do I sign.
We need to trade in two quality bigger built mids and since we have SFA to trade we need picks and Murphy leaving can help us.......

The Kreuzer, Gibbs, Murphy era is over and we need to let it go and cash in what we can....

If we lose Murphy as a FA we will get sweet FA in return, maybe a 3rd or 4th round pick (see Waite and Betts examples for how the AFL view Carlton FAs). We need him playing, teaching our young mids. O'Brien has played what, 5 games? Looks OK, but needs a senior head around for the next couple of years. SPS looks disinterested, is going backwards at a rate of knots. We need Murphy at Carlton for the next 2-3 years

Article in the HUN about the compensation we would receive if Murph decided to go via free agency at the end of this year (ie, bugger all).  Is this a possibility ?  As we've seen with Waite, he's alienated himself from the club he played most of his career at.....and for what ?.  Is chasing a premiership in the last couple of years of your career worth it ?  I don't know, that would be up to the individual I guess.  Murph certainly wouldn't benefit financially from a move to a club in premiership contention.  Could we afford to lose yet another senior player of his class for nothing ?

For mine, I hope he stays & gets the reward in the last year of his career similar to Shane Crawford !!!

cheers

IF. That tiny word summarizes most of the propaganda we read in print  ;)

I too hope Murphy stays a blue. It would be a fairytale ending if he tasted the ultimate success before he retired.

Cheers to you too malo ????‍♂️

People will think it's all conspiracy, but behind the scenes there are some rumors surfacing about a split at CheatsFC, Worsfold versus the old world CheatsFC establishment. A war between CheastFC inbred royalty, the cockroach and the new CheatsFC order!

It's something we should keep a close eye on and learn from, if the rumors are true we do not want to go through this with the Silvagnis!

On behalf of the entire football public, I'd like to thank the Hirds, Thompsons, Watsons and Danihers for the gift that just keeps on giving! ;D

The drug cheats v the pharmacist  ;D

If we lose Murphy as a FA we will get sweet FA in return, maybe a 3rd or 4th round pick (see Waite and Betts examples for how the AFL view Carlton FAs). We need him playing, teaching our young mids. O'Brien has played what, 5 games? Looks OK, but needs a senior head around for the next couple of years. SPS looks disinterested, is going backwards at a rate of knots. We need Murphy at Carlton for the next 2-3 years

I wouldnt give Murphy away as a FA for a 3rd or 4th rounder and take your point on free agency not being kind to us but we need to get other players playing his role now
and he needs to spend less time on ball etc...

Relieve Murph of the Captaincy and watch him blossom!

Hopefully the bloke is a Blue for life....

Whilst I agree his kicking isn't what it used to be I do believe that's a mental/pressure thing...

At his best, or near it, Murph was sublime.

Hopefully again.

He peaked 7 years ago.

He peaked 7 years ago? He won the B&F last year! I think they want Murphy to be the player who has the ball in his hand when they enter the F50. Because of injuries he hasn't been able to play that role. We have seen what losing a player like Gibbs does to the side, losing Murphy would be a bigger loss.

I want Murph playing the free wheeling outside role that won him the best player awards (coaches) and AA in 2011. He is not an inside mid but people want to play inside and get smashed and be a Luke Hodge. He is a Hodge or a Cripps. Get him on the outside, use skill to get inside 50 to a target or have shot. Leave the grunt work to the specialists and get him playing on the outside and watch him flourish again.

He peaked 7 years ago? He won the B&F last year! I think they want Murphy to be the player who has the ball in his hand when they enter the F50. Because of injuries he hasn't been able to play that role. We have seen what losing a player like Gibbs does to the side, losing Murphy would be a bigger loss.

BM, mbb is right. 2011 was definitely Murph's best year. Which isn't to say that he's been crap since. Far from it. He's been a good player for us his whole career, but he hasn't returned to the lofty heights of 2011. That much is accurate IMO.

I want Murph playing the free wheeling outside role that won him the best player awards (coaches) and AA in 2011. He is not an inside mid but people want to play inside and get smashed and be a Luke Hodge. He is a Hodge or a Cripps. Get him on the outside, use skill to get inside 50 to a target or have shot. Leave the grunt work to the specialists and get him playing on the outside and watch him flourish again.

Agree with this. Murph can be a very creative asset for us in that role, relieved of the grunt work. He isn't ideally built for that anyway. We need another couple who are to back up Cripps though and I think we should see what we could make out of Jack as a possible option this year. Nothing to lose.

I don't have much to say about Murphy aside from the following.

We have struggled badly in his absence.

We will be a much better side with him in there, than without him.  We are absolutely missing his presence, even if he doesn't have as much of an impact on games himself.

Finally, think back to the few wins we have had recently, and you find that Murphy is quite prolific in those.

Finally, think back to the few wins we have had recently, and you find that Murphy is quite prolific in those.

The fact Murphy haters love to overlook!

If we lose Murphy as a FA we will get sweet FA in return, maybe a 3rd or 4th round pick (see Waite and Betts examples for how the AFL view Carlton FAs). We need him playing, teaching our young mids. O'Brien has played what, 5 games? Looks OK, but needs a senior head around for the next couple of years. SPS looks disinterested, is going backwards at a rate of knots. We need Murphy at Carlton for the next 2-3 years

Any Betts compo was offset by getting Thomas in.

The fact Murphy haters love to overlook!

LP..I'm not a Murphy hater but he isnt the player he was and his disposal/decision making isnt what it was and for both him and us I think he should move onto another club that can offer
him finals and if we can get something decent in return then I think it whats best, if we cant get a decent return then he stays...

LP..I'm not a Murphy hater but he isnt the player he was and his disposal/decision making isnt what it was and for both him and us I think he should move onto another club that can offer
him finals and if we can get something decent in return then I think it whats best, if we cant get a decent return then he stays...

I'm not a fan of shipping off our Captain and loyal servant because he "isn't the player he was". Like it or not, Murph is considered as a leader by those who count. Whatever we think matters not.

Can't believe anyone would advocate for Murph to be traded... There is still plenty of good footy in Murph and he's an important/committed BlueBagger. Yes, some of his disposals have been wayward of late, but his influence on field is still overwhelmingly positive. As the Skipper going forward? Well that's another discussion.

I'm not a fan of shipping off our Captain and loyal servant because he "isn't the player he was". Like it or not, Murph is considered as a leader by those who count. Whatever we think matters not.

Hawks moved Hodge and Lewis on because they wanted to rebuild with Mitchell and Omeara.....Gibbs wanted out for money and finals, its the way of footy now that players move around more and even loyal servants end up at different clubs for different reasons.
Cripps is now the unofficial anointed leader IMO......I'd rather we move on gracefully from the Kruezer, Gibbs, Murphy era and have other players taking on their responsibilities, if that means suggesting they move on like Hodge, Lewis then fine, if it means them stepping back and giving more games/time to kids then thats fine with me too.....they can be around to assist but I'd rather a kid like Polson play more than Murphy for the rest of the season given the year is over for us apart from development.
Play more seniors when its a more winnable game but vs teams like the Crows at home it would be Murphy out, Polson in for example....

Can't believe anyone would advocate for Murph to be traded... There is still plenty of good footy in Murph and he's an important/committed BlueBagger. Yes, some of his disposals have been wayward of late, but his influence on field is still overwhelmingly positive. As the Skipper going forward? Well that's another discussion.

Turns the ball over a lot IMO, a lot of his kicks are short with plenty of elevation, as I said in my last post I would manage him but give kids preference...ie Brisbane he plays to help win the game but vs the Crows he rests, ditto Kruezer.....Simpson to 300 then he retires....
This era with these older players has come to an end, we have to let it go and them with it......

Hawks moved Hodge and Lewis on because they wanted to rebuild with Mitchell and Omeara.....Gibbs wanted out for money and finals, its the way of footy now that players move around more and even loyal servants end up at different clubs for different reasons.
Cripps is now the unofficial anointed leader IMO......I'd rather we move on gracefully from the Kruezer, Gibbs, Murphy era and have other players taking on their responsibilities, if that means suggesting they move on like Hodge, Lewis then fine, if it means them stepping back and giving more games/time to kids then thats fine with me too.....they can be around to assist but I'd rather a kid like Polson play more than Murphy for the rest of the season given the year is over for us apart from development.
Play more seniors when its a more winnable game but vs teams like the Crows at home it would be Murphy out, Polson in for example....

I suspect Kreuz and Murph are one club players and want to stay. Plus, neither would have much currency whereas Gibbs had plenty of currency. Plus Kreuz is very managed and his body is unlikely to allow too many more seasons.

Hawks moved Hodge and Lewis on because they wanted to rebuild with Mitchell and Omeara.....Gibbs wanted out for money and finals, its the way of footy now that players move around more and even loyal servants
end up at different clubs for different reasons.
Cripps is now the unofficial anointed leader IMO......I'd rather we move on gracefully from the Kruezer, Gibbs, Murphy era and have other players taking on their responsibilities, if that means suggesting they move on like Hodge, Lewis then fine, if it means them stepping back and giving more games/time to kids then thats fine with me too.....they can be around to assist but I'd rather a kid like Polson play more than Murphy for the rest of the season given the year is over for us apart from development.
Play more seniors when its a more winnable game but vs teams like the Crows at home it would be Murphy out, Polson in for example....

Hodge was on one leg at retired, then was coaxed out of retirement by Fagan. Not comparable to Murph. There are other boat anchors we can get rid of create space ahead of Murph. Gibbs was another story, wanted to go home to mummy and daddy and get an armchair ride into finals, strong character is Bryce. I am fully aware of how footy is now, I just dont agree with getting rid of your skipper.

Turns the ball over a lot IMO, a lot of his kicks are short with plenty of elevation, as I said in my last post I would manage him but give kids preference...ie Brisbane he plays to help win the game but vs the Crows he rests, ditto Kruezer.....Simpson to 300 then he retires....
This era with these older players has come to an end, we have to let it go and them with it......

He's had a foot injury.

He's had a foot injury.

Not sure why he has been played then?, we seem to like playing injured players ie Kennedy, Marchbank.....and Thomas initially.....

Not sure why he has been played then?, we seem to like playing injured players ie Kennedy, Marchbank.....and Thomas initially.....

Cupboard is bare and not infinite. We have been ravaged by injury this year, cant play all kids. If we did and lost, we'd call for the coaches head, board to be sacked and brand said injured players soft for not playing through injury. The reality is, all teams have players with niggles throughout the year. Some we know about, some we don't. In Murphs case, it perhaps explains his alleged below std disposal (I haven't noticed it TBH).

Hawks moved Hodge and Lewis on because they wanted to rebuild with Mitchell and Omeara.....Gibbs wanted out for money and finals, its the way of footy now that players move around more and even loyal servants end up at different clubs for different reasons.
Cripps is now the unofficial anointed leader IMO......I'd rather we move on gracefully from the Kruezer, Gibbs, Murphy era and have other players taking on their responsibilities, if that means suggesting they move on like Hodge, Lewis then fine, if it means them stepping back and giving more games/time to kids then thats fine with me too.....they can be around to assist but I'd rather a kid like Polson play more than Murphy for the rest of the season given the year is over for us apart from development.
Play more seniors when its a more winnable game but vs teams like the Crows at home it would be Murphy out, Polson in for example....

You are aware of what Hawthorn got in return for Lewis and Hodge? We would be crazy to give away our reigning B&F for nothing. You're not making much sense here

You are aware of what Hawthorn got in return for Lewis and Hodge? We would be crazy to give away our reigning B&F for nothing. You're not making much sense here

Reigning B&F doesnt mean much in a bottom club, yep I am fully aware of what Hawthorn got for those two and S. Mitchell...nada....moving them on was about rebuilding the midfield with T.Mitchell and OMeara not worrying about the returns for Hodge and Lewis.
Sure I said I would like decent return for Murphy and be reluctant to move him on without good compo but the more I think about it and what Hawthorn did maybe you just have to accept the AFL compo pick what ever it is and stick to your plans like the Hawks did....they obviously had T. Mitchell lined up 12 months earlier and also must have been very sure that they could get Omeara over the line too...

The Hawks and us are incomparable IMHO.

They have enough senior leaders around to fill the void.  We lose two mature players and we lose three hundred games experience minimum and replace them with underdone skinny kids who can't play four quarters.

Reigning B&F doesnt mean much in a bottom club, yep I am fully aware of what Hawthorn got for those two and S. Mitchell...nada....moving them on was about rebuilding the midfield with T.Mitchell and OMeara not worrying about the returns for Hodge and Lewis.
Sure I said I would like decent return for Murphy and be reluctant to move him on without good compo but the more I think about it and what Hawthorn did maybe you just have to accept the AFL compo pick what ever it is and stick to your plans like the Hawks did....they obviously had T. Mitchell lined up 12 months earlier and also must have been very sure that they could get Omeara over the line too...

If we've got genuine gun mids like Mitchell and O'Meara lined up the yep. ok, but I can't see any gun mids wanting to come to Carlton for 3 or 4 years of bottom 4-6 finishes

If we've got genuine gun mids like Mitchell and O'Meara lined up the yep. ok, but I can't see any gun mids wanting to come to Carlton for 3 or 4 years of bottom 4-6 finishes

Fair point about gun mids although I expect another attempt at Kelly, Shiel...

Fair point about gun mids although I expect another attempt at Kelly, Shiel...

I suspect one or both are in the bag.....

I suspect one or both are in the bag.....

SOSs track record at getting who is wants  is pretty bad, (first preference for our club... Freddie the blind miner could have done the job at GWS), prepare yourself for other GWS steak knives or cast offs from elsewhere.  :(

SOSs track record at getting who is wants (first preference) is pretty bad, prepare yourself for other GWS steak knives or cast offs from elsewhere.  :(

I'm listening. Tell me who he went hard at and missed - other than blokes who stayed for a couple more years eg Kelly, Hopper?

Tomlinson?

I'm listening. Tell me who he went hard at and missed - other than blokes who stayed for a couple more years eg Kelly, Hopper?

Tomlinson?

Tomlinson we had in the bag....until GWS reneged at the last minute (literally).  No much SOS could do there.

I'm listening. Tell me who he went hard at and missed - other than blokes who stayed for a couple more years eg Kelly, Hopper?

Tomlinson?

Ignoring the blokes who stayed put because you never genuinely know if they have the intent to move, since SOS has arrived we are alleged to have chased the additional following players who moved clubs;

Caddy
Rockliff
Lever
Cameron
Smith
Prestia
O'Meara
Dixon
Treloar

If you want a bigger fish that list is a bit sad, because the club keep telling us we are going to land one! Based on our history you would have to say we are "Cheap Ar5e Fishing Charters!" All promise and no delivery!

I'm not convinced we need to land one, or that our publicly announced strategy actually fits our observed actions, it may be all a smokescreen just to test the market.

Even when we had the Superbait in the water, we got value for money not overs and not unders. I'll be impressed when we can land a whoppa on an earthworm!

I feel more than a Tom Lynch Tuna, we need a F50 version of the ACoS Kingfish!

There was a time when we went after our man, we got him. Much like the Dawks and a few others do today... we were told we'd land a marquee player last year... tumbleweeds. Regardless of whether our targets stay at their club or change clubs, we've notched up plenty of failures in the past couple of years (see the Spotted Ones list.. and there's a couple you could add to that list). Either SOS is on the nose, or we are or both.

I thought we were reasonably serious about Saad and Devon Smith.

I thought we were reasonably serious about Saad and Devon Smith.

We were, came down to money...both have been reasonable for Essendon, Smith seems to have adapted to being a mid after being played mainly forward but he isnt elite and I guess
we had our limits on his worth.
Given our lack of small defenders and run from defense Saad would have been very handy...

We were, came down to money...both have been reasonable for Essendon, Smith seems to have adapted to being a mid after being played mainly forward but he isnt elite and I guess
we had our limits on his worth.
Given our lack of small defenders and run from defense Saad would have been very handy...

thanks EB. I guess someone like Mullet was plan B in case Saad didn't eventuate.

thanks EB. I guess someone like Mullet was plan B in case Saad didn't eventuate.

Paul ,There is also the other issue of real big fish like Lynch, Kelly, Shiel etc.....maybe we had our limits because we have to pay overs to attract these types and while Smith and Saad are handy players we couldnt afford to get fancy with the money and be unable to compete in the market for these big fish.
Got Cripps coming out of contract too which is going to cost too given he will get some massive offers from the West IMO..

Mullet was plan B but is looking more like plan E......his skills are ok but his contesting/defending leaves a bit to be desired but with Docherty out he will play most games IMO.

Paul ,There is also the other issue of real big fish like Lynch, Kelly, Shiel etc.....maybe we had our limits because we have to pay overs to attract these types and while Smith and Saad are handy players we couldnt afford to get fancy with the money and be unable to compete in the market for these big fish.
Got Cripps coming out of contract too which is going to cost too given he will get some massive offers from the West IMO..

Mullet was plan B but is looking more like plan E......his skills are ok but his contesting/defending leaves a bit to be desired but with Docherty out he will play most games IMO.

They all sound like fair points to me EB.

Willo slated to return to NB's this week.   Would solve the Mullet issue.

SOSs track record at getting who is wants  is pretty bad, (first preference for our club... Freddie the blind miner could have done the job at GWS), prepare yourself for other GWS steak knives or cast offs from elsewhere.  :(

Very very harsh.

SOSs track record at getting who is wants  is pretty bad, (first preference for our club... Freddie the blind miner could have done the job at GWS), prepare yourself for other GWS steak knives or cast offs from elsewhere.  :(

Ill be my balls a Hughes or a Rogers would have farked up every pick GWS and they would be worse than the Suns right now.

Can't post the link to this article because of the language.

https://onballers.com/2018/04/20/enough-with-your-bullcrap-takes-on-carlton/

Replace Bullcrap with Bull s h I t

Enough with your bullcrap Carlton takes
by Ryan Buckland April 20, 2018

Friends, I have a confession. I am sick and tired of mainstream media pundits twisting the knife they have all inserted into the spine of the Carlton Football Club.
It is a symptom of the general march into reflexive, vapid and often unfounded negativity of Australia’s football media. Lose on the weekend? Then you are in the gun. I mean just look at the commentary surrounding Melbourne this week. The club could be 3-1 with wins against Geelong, Brisbane away and North Melbourne. They are doing a lot right. They got one thing wrong – spectacularly wrong – against Hawthorn (forward half play), and all of a sudden they are junk.

It’s maddening. The reflex to look for the negative, the crisis, among football writers and journalists is like a disease spreading unchecked through a fifth century Saxon village. Not that the football media, with its homogeneity and brutishness, resembles a Saxon village.
And then they have the cheek to complain about lack of access. Again, maddening.

Carlton is another example. On any objective measure Carlton was to be one of the worst handful of teams in the league this season. Those predictions have come to pass – an 0-4 start, just five quarters won, and the lowest percentage in the league. Mind, the Blues have faced the third most difficult schedule to start the year, and have lost significant experience at the top of their list compared to the 2017 season.

But suddenly Carlton’s rebuild is faltering. It’s taking too long. It has not been done well. They’ve gone too hard, or too soft, or whatever it is Chris Judd’s ghost writer was trying to convey in his column in The Age. We have to change the entire AFL talent ecosystem because previous Carlton administrators flambéed the club’s list in a way no one has done in modern times. Again, it’s maddening.

I have a take for you: Enough with this Carlton bullcrap. They are fine, are on the only path available to the club, and will come out of this at some point with a competent AFL list.

The same folks that raked the club over the coals for the parlous state of its list are now complaining that its list isn’t much chop. These same people also said the Blues could sneak into the finals after a solid start to last season. They are making it up as they go, overreacting to the week to week machinations of the league. Enough with this Carlton bullcrap.

Me and the Carlton Football Club have history, albeit in the way a mosquito might have business with a person. I have been critical of the pace of the initial stages of the Blues’ rebuild, because the scale of the task at hand required a proportionate response. It has taken a while, but after the 2017 off season, and the first few rounds of 2018, it seems as though Carlton has truly figured out where it is at.

The Blues have had the fourth, fourth, fifth and third least experienced sides in the league in their four 2018 games to date. With captain Marc Murphy out of the side for the next three weeks, the Blues are essentially down their three best individuals from the 2017 season: Bryce Gibbs, Sam Docherty and Murphy himself. Patrick Cripps doesn’t qualify for that list because of injury, but he is in that group.

Carlton’s build has so far focussed on preparing the key position posts. This is founded on the conventional wisdom that it takes taller players longer to develop than midfielders. They have young, prospective key position players at both ends; for all intents and purposes the Blues will now shift to building a midfield.
Their 2017 offseason was instructive. Carlton traded in a 21 year old Matthew Kennedy, 22 year old Darcy Lang, and used free agency and the lesser drafts to backfill depth spots with Aaron Mullett, Cam O’Shea and Matt Shaw. Their two top ten picks were used on midfield prospects Paddy Dow and Lochie O’Brien. The strategy was clear.

And we see the impact on the field. The keys have been turned over to the younglings in a significant way. They are young, overexposed, and not ready for the spotlight. Ed Curnow, a former tagger, is the leading ball winner for the Blues through four games – almost by default. Again, it is the only way.
Pundits forget just how challenging the Blues’ 2015 playing list position had become. A year prior it was the second oldest and second most experienced in the league. Its young talent stocks were thin. Of the 26 (twenty six, 2-6) Blues who were 24 or younger at the start of the 2015 season, just five (five, people!) remain: Liam Jones, Docherty, Nick Graham, Ciaran Byrne and Cripps. Contrast that to St Kilda: 21 of its 32 players aged 24 or younger in 2015 are still at the club.
In other words, this is not your typical rebuild, and so we cannot expect it to follow a typical path. Patience, the utmost kind, is required, for it will take a long time for Carlton to build its playing stocks back up to a merely average level, let alone a finals contending level.

In the background to Carlton’s particular situation, the whole list management game has changed at a league wide level. No more is the draft pick the currency which powers the league. Free agency – the regular and delisted kind – is now firmly entrenched, and makes salary cap management a sharp list management tool.
The Blues, along with the Gold Coast Suns and to a lesser extent the Brisbane Lions, are rebuilding their lists in an unprecedented, complex environment.
Carlton fans: don’t give in to the negative hype. While your club may have taken too long to get this rebuild moving, there is little doubt now that the severity of the situation is acknowledged and the right actions are being taken.

Where the Blues may change course is on the field. Last year, Carlton played a possession-heavy, score-limiting brand of football. It meant the club didn’t get obliterated as frequently as one may expect for a young, rebuilding team. This year, coach Brendon Bolton and his coaching staff have attempted to instil some attacking instincts; it has come at the expense of that defensive identity. The loss of Docherty, and the aging of Kane Simpson, has not helped, but there must be balance. Carlton conceded seven scores of 100 points in 2017 – they’ve done it four out of four times in 2018.

Ultimately, though, the on field results do not matter a great deal this season. Or next. Or perhaps the one after. Progress, and process, matters. So long as Carlton continues to commit to its current path, and stays the course, the better days will follow. Carlton is fine. Enough with your bullcrap takes.

Ultimately, though, the on field results do not matter a great deal this season. Or next. Or perhaps the one after. Progress, and process, matters. So long as Carlton continues to commit to its current path, and stays the course, the better days will follow. Carlton is fine. Enough with your bullcrap takes.

If we're three seasons down the track and he thinks results still won't matter he has no idea.

Another of the many who are happy to see Carlton languish in the bottom four for the next five years

That's what you get out of that article?

That's what you get out of that article?

Yep
That was his conclusion.
That's his summary
That's his main point.

But all the points he makes have been made.. we're well aware of them and agree with many.

But what's he getting at here....

Their 2017 offseason was instructive. Carlton traded in a 21 year old Matthew Kennedy, 22 year old Darcy Lang, and used free agency and the lesser drafts to backfill depth spots with Aaron Mullett, Cam O’Shea and Matt Shaw.

Now of those players... none are guaranteed to be long term players for us.
It's a strategy, but it could just as easily be a strategy that sucks big time.

Where I have an issue with a piece like this is that it's patronising.
It tells us to just be patient and everything will be OK.
I'll bet "London to a brick" that if we're bottom 4 in 2020 we'll have a new board, a new coach and a new list manager in 2021...and there won't be many Carlton people complaining about that.

But what's he getting at here....

Now of those players... none are guaranteed to be long term players for us.
It's a strategy, but it could just as easily be a strategy that sucks big time.

Where I have an issue with a piece like this is that it's patronising.
It tells us to just be patient and everything will be OK.
I'll bet "London to a brick" that if we're bottom 4 in 2020 we'll have a new board, a new coach and a new list manager in 2021...and there won't be many Carlton people complaining about that.

Lods, at the same time, none of those players have quite panned out as expected.  They are playing key roles for us, and are as new to the club and its nuances as the rest, and it could be argued, that we might have seen better from Mullett had Docherty not gone down injured.

O shea has been reasonably ordinary as well.

I think we have entered a perfect storm, and we wont be out of it until at least mid year when our injured blokes start taking the field again.

Lang as an example is very under done, and IMHO, shouldnt be playing this week.  he was cooked and on one leg for most of last week against a physical, yet poor outfit.

Lods, at the same time, none of those players have quite panned out as expected.  They are playing key roles for us, and are as new to the club and its nuances as the rest, and it could be argued, that we might have seen better from Mullett had Docherty not gone down injured.

O shea has been reasonably ordinary as well.

I think we have entered a perfect storm, and we wont be out of it until at least mid year when our injured blokes start taking the field again.

Lang as an example is very under done, and IMHO, shouldnt be playing this week.  he was cooked and on one leg for most of last week against a physical, yet poor outfit.

Those players may all turn out to be excellent pickups for us.
But 'patience' wont be the key to that.
It will be hard work, good planning and development.... and a lot of luck with injuries etc.

The point I'm making is there are no guarantees.
And I'm getting a little sick of the Nostradmaus types who say we should just shut up, sit back and let it happen.

I don't mind "following the path" but if we get led across a muddy creek rather than going over the bridge, it's probably not unreasonable to question why we didn't use the bridge...and there might genuinely be a good reason.
That's what discussion forums are for.

See my point is that I want an explanation of what bridge everyone else seems to have been looking for.

There was no bridge.  

See my point is that I want an explanation of what bridge everyone else seems to have been looking for.

There was no bridge.

We may not have got to the bridge yet. But to not bother looking for it, we are potentially doing ourselves an incredible injustice.

We may not have got to the bridge yet. But to not bother looking for it, we are potentially doing ourselves an incredible injustice.

So you're saying instead of building a bridge we should see if someone has built one for us to use??

Let's face it, the club has decided that they're building a bridge and whilst they're doing the foundation work they are having a few issues. 

It might not be on time it might be expensive but they are intending to build a bridge a d don't seem worried about everyone who's telling them they are doing it wrong.

I'm fine with that but you can't knock the finished product when all your doing is looking at how they're building it.

So you're saying instead of building a bridge we should see if someone has built one for us to use??

Let's face it, the club has decided that they're building a bridge and whilst they're doing the foundation work they are having a few issues. 

It might not be on time it might be expensive but they are intending to build a bridge a d don't seem worried about everyone who's telling them they are doing it wrong.

I'm fine with that but you can't knock the finished product when all your doing is looking at how they're building it.

You are missing the point.

There may be a tree fallen over that creates a bridge. Its not looking for someone else to build us one.

If we keep on the same path, head down, looking at where we put our next foot and continue on this path we will get to where we need to get too.....eventually.
However, if every now and then we stop, have a look around and evaluate our path and if it is the best one we can be taking, we might find that there is a better option along the way.

BUT, if we don't look, we don't find.

No harm in looking for a bridge. If none present itself, then on we trudge doing what we are doing.

So you're saying instead of building a bridge we should see if someone has built one for us to use??

Let's face it, the club has decided that they're building a bridge and whilst they're doing the foundation work they are having a few issues. 

It might not be on time it might be expensive but they are intending to build a bridge a d don't seem worried about everyone who's telling them they are doing it wrong.

I'm fine with that but you can't knock the finished product when all your doing is looking at how they're building it.

Sometimes it is better to say something ;D

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/OgkQD.jpg)

To progress the lines of communication have to be very clear.

Like the time my wife came home with one of these;

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/e4/1f/b2/e41fb27a2edc2b9ff689c3b77e468a44.jpg)

She'd completely misunderstood! ;D

Yep
That was his conclusion.
That's his summary
That's his main point.

But all the points he makes have been made.. we're well aware of them and agree with many.

But what's he getting at here....

Where I have an issue with a piece like this is that it's patronising.
It tells us to just be patient and everything will be OK.
I'll bet "London to a brick" that if we're bottom 4 in 2020 we'll have a new board, a new coach and a new list manager in 2021...and there won't be many Carlton people complaining about that.

I don't find it patronising at all telling us to be patient, back the process and don't fall into all the rubbish that the rebuild has been a failure and it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water after 18 months.

You want to see development first, results 2nd.  

Their 2017 offseason was instructive. Carlton traded in a 21 year old Matthew Kennedy, 22 year old Darcy Lang, and used free agency and the lesser drafts to backfill depth spots with Aaron Mullett, Cam O’Shea and Matt Shaw.

Now of those players... none are guaranteed to be long term players for us.
It's a strategy, but it could just as easily be a strategy that sucks big time.

Of course there is no guarantee.   Just like there was no guarantee with Sam Docherty, Sam Kerridge or Liam Sumner.    It's a risk.   Just like using the Pick 28 we traded for Kennedy.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/picks/28   32 drafts ~ 46 avg games

Stacks of duds in that group.

Even with Lang and Kennedy you need to give them some time.   Both have had limited pre-season and while you might be justified in having concerns they aren't a write off just yet.

There is a point of difference in regard to being patient with some of the young players that have come to us for a greater opportunity as part of a trade. Most of them have also received a healthy pay rise, and that changes things! ;)

In that regard they are not like draftees, so for players like Marchbank, Kennedy, Pickett, Phillips, Lamb and perhaps even Garlett, the expectation for them having immediate impact on the team should probably be higher than for a Charlie, Weitering, Dow, Williamson, Macreadie or O'Brien, etc. etc..

See my point is that I want an explanation of what bridge everyone else seems to have been looking for.

There was no bridge.

I wasn't referring to an all-encompassing bridge but rather to a pathway along which there are many points where you make a choice of direction (or a choice of crossing.)
Sometimes there will be a choice made that seems a bit strange (we see it most weeks in match selections).

Surely those choices are the basis for discussion.

I don't find it patronising at all telling us to be patient, back the process and don't fall into all the rubbish that the rebuild has been a failure and it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water after 18 months.

You want to see development first, results 2nd.  

It is patronising because what he's saying is that in the end that he knows better...there will be no doubt this rebuild will be successful... and anyone who disagrees with that is talking bullcrap.
He doesn't know!
It could just as easy go belly-up.

No-body is saying the rebuild isn't working at this point...what they're saying is there are no guarantees it will work and we need to look for positive signs that it is on the improve.... and at the same time feel free to express our concerns.
Yep... I want to see development first and results 2nd.
There are good signs from some players, but there are also worrying signs from others....so lets see the development in those.

What we do need to see is progress and at the moment we seem to have stagnated.
Now there are obvious reason for that stagnation (injuries, loss of players) but the process needs a jump-start.
I have no problem backing a process I feel is working but it's just blind faith to back a process because you're told to... or you're disloyal.

You want to see development first, results 2nd.

Fair enough, but whats the time frame?....this the real world not SimCity, members are like shareholders and expect a return within a reasonable period of time.
Its now the 3rd year and we have bottomed out again, is it so unreasonable for supporters/members to question the process when we have gone backwards and been uncompetitive for most of the season?
Or are our results reasonable and some other teams who were strugglers have just improved more than us ie North, Collingwood etc?

You want to see development first, results 2nd.

Fair enough, but whats the time frame?....this the real world not SimCity, members are like shareholders and expect a return within a reasonable period of time.
Its now the 3rd year and we have bottomed out again, is it so unreasonable for supporters/members to question the process when we have gone backwards and been uncompetitive for most of the season?
Or are our results reasonable and some other teams who were strugglers have just improved more than us ie North, Collingwood etc?

Perhaps the members are unrealistic.

Perhaps the members are unrealistic.

Guarantee you some members are unrealistic. Wouldn't be a single player on the list that every member supports universally.

How much weight should be put into what the members think though?
Does the club know best?

Guarantee you some members are unrealistic. Wouldn't be a single player on the list that every member supports universally.

How much weight should be put into what the members think though?
Does the club know best?

When you ask "does the club know best ?" ...............in relation to whom ? In relation to supporters, even a club coming dead last has staff who know more about football than any supporter. I guess the problem arises when said staff may not know as much as staff from teams coming first.

I reckon Charlie Curnow would have universal Navy Blue love, or at least 99%. Only the technically insane would poo poo CC.

When you ask "does the club know best ?" ...............in relation to whom ? In relation to supporters, even a club coming dead last has staff who know more about football than any supporter. I guess the problem arises when said staff may not know as much as staff from teams coming first.

I reckon Charlie Curnow would have universal Navy Blue love, or at least 99%. Only the technically insane would poo poo CC.

Daisy Thomas was on TFS last night and called Curnowfides dumb "and he wouldn't mind me saying that either". He said he has the nickname reindeer because he just gallops around without any idea on what he is going to do. He also said that if his teammates have no idea what he is going to do, how are the opposition supposed to work it out.

So, i guarantee you there are members who dislike his laissez faire approach.

I've got a mad Geelong member mate of mine who absolutely HATED Stevie J, basically for the same reason.

Which is the point, members will not agree. So should they be listened too?

Your contention that the club ALWAYS knows best in relation to supporters can be disproven.
Sydney Swans were looking for a coach. They had (unofficially?) signed Terry Wallace as coach, but due to HUGE supporter backlash and support for another candidate the club was forced to change their mind and go with the majority.
End result, Paul Roos gets signed and wins them their first flag in 73 years.
Club was wrong.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, but none quite so poignant as that.

Club SHOULD know whats best, but to just assume they do could leave you following a club that has spent the better part of 2 decades rebuilding after it got itself into salary cap issues. ;)

I think a point to make here is that we're a discussion forum.
If we cant be critical and discuss different aspects of the club there's not a lot of point to our existence.

I've found we're a pretty good cross section of members and supporters and over the years are pretty reflective of the general feelings of Carlton folk at any particular time.

My guess is at the moment we're running about 80% in favour of the current direction of the club.
But there are some who are starting to question some aspects of the rebuild.
It's pretty fair to say that continued lack of success will see that support gradually erode.

So the key is 'progress'.

You want to see development first, results 2nd.

Fair enough, but whats the time frame?....this the real world not SimCity, members are like shareholders and expect a return within a reasonable period of time.
Its now the 3rd year and we have bottomed out again, is it so unreasonable for supporters/members to question the process when we have gone backwards and been uncompetitive for most of the season?
Or are our results reasonable and some other teams who were strugglers have just improved more than us ie North, Collingwood etc?

In the real world you can't expect this list to be anymore than it currently is, given it's demographics.  If at the start of the season Essendon had our list we would have all said that a bottom 2 list.   Otherwise you are getting into Murray Goulbern Areas of telling everyone you will get $4 a litre for milk, when the market wants to pay $2

Our blue chips talent is all at the bottom end age wise.  It's difficult to draw parallels with North who still have Higgins, Goldstein, Robbie Tarrant, Ziebell, Cunnington, Brown all 25 years old with 100 odd games of football?   Who do we have in this bracket to match that?   Our blokes at that age bracket are Kerridge, Lamb, Mullett, Shaw, Phillips, Jones, Casboult, Wright, Curnow, Kreuzer, Lobbe.    Battlers and honest footballers.   These are the guys that are consistent with their performance week in week out.
North haven't cut back like we have.  They still have talent at the top end.    If they traded Zeibell and Higgins maybe.   

In 3-4 years time who will have the better list when this bracket moves on.

So timeframe?

GWS took 4 years to break 50/50, but had a massive injection of young talent.

Maybe similar to the Demons rebuild.    Vintage 2012.

Moved (or lost)  Rivers, Moloney, Stef Martin, Green, Sylvia, Frawley.   Cut the dead wood and didn't have much top end older talent.

2012: 16th 4 wins.   Rebuild Starts
2013:  17th 2 wins
2014:  17th 4 wins
2015:  13th 7 wins.
2016:  11th 10 wins.
2017:  9th  12 wins.

Now Melbourne haven't mastered the rebuild.   It's not the Blueprint, but it shows how long it can take and yes I think it can be done quicker with FA etc.   But you have Gawn (26), Viney (24), Hogan (23), Salem (22), Petracca (22), Hunt (23), Tyson (24) all at that 60-100 game bracket.   Add Oliver and you are on your way.
   
I would think bottom 4 next year.

 

I think a point to make here is that we're a discussion forum.
If we cant be critical and discuss different aspects of the club there's not a lot of point to our existence.

I've found we're a pretty good cross section of members and supporters and over the years are pretty reflective of the general feelings of Carlton folk at any particular time.

My guess is at the moment we're running about 80% in favour of the current direction of the club.
But there are some who are starting to question some aspects of the rebuild.
It's pretty fair to say that continued lack of success will see that support gradually erode.

So the key is 'progress'.

The 2 are not mutually exclusive.
I find myself in both camps.
...but i think your 80% is perhaps a touch swayed by your personal opinion. I think its more. But no point squabbling over the figures.

The odd win provides people with some sort of "confirmation " (I'm not sure of the right word)  that the rebuild is in track.

No wins and people start to lose faith.

Daisy Thomas was on TFS last night and called Curnowfides dumb "and he wouldn't mind me saying that either". He said he has the nickname reindeer because he just gallops around without any idea on what he is going to do. He also said that if his teammates have no idea what he is going to do, how are the opposition supposed to work it out.

So, i guarantee you there are members who dislike his laissez faire approach.

I've got a mad Geelong member mate of mine who absolutely HATED Stevie J, basically for the same reason.

Which is the point, members will not agree. So should they be listened too?

Your contention that the club ALWAYS knows best in relation to supporters can be disproven.
Sydney Swans were looking for a coach. They had (unofficially?) signed Terry Wallace as coach, but due to HUGE supporter backlash and support for another candidate the club was forced to change their mind and go with the majority.
End result, Paul Roos gets signed and wins them their first flag in 73 years.
Club was wrong.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, but none quite so poignant as that.

Club SHOULD know whats best, but to just assume they do could leave you following a club that has spent the better part of 2 decades rebuilding after it got itself into salary cap issues. ;)

I'm not really sure how you can quote Daisy Thomas (who as far as I can tell is a player, not a supporter) and from that conclude that some supporters may think CC is laissez faire, and therefore not like it ?

The Swans supporter base voted for Roos out of love and loyalty, not football knowledge. Some coaches make it work at one club and not others. Wallace may have netted the Swans 2 or 3 flags, or 2 or 3 spoons. We will never know. The point is that the clubs spend a lot more time and effort in making these decisions, and make them with access to a wealth of knowledge that supporters can only dream of. Us humans are unpredictable buggers. Trying to select the right human for a particular task will never have a 100% success rate. But the right systems, methods and processes are critical. Otherwise we end up with the club equivalent of the car Homer Simpson designed.

The odd win provides people with some sort of "confirmation " (I'm not sure of the right word)  that the rebuild is in track.

No wins and people start to lose faith.

Sometimes no wins give false despair, and sometimes a few wins give false hope - our 2004 regular season and 2005 pre seasons being exhibit A.

...but i think your 80% is perhaps a touch swayed by your personal opinion. I think its more. But no point squabbling over the figures.

Sure
Just a gut feeling...
Poll on TC of 120 odd members is running at 74% in favour of the current direction, 13% no idea, and 14% genuinely concerned or unhappy.
Who knows...I'd guess that the fringe supporter who doesn't belong to any social media groups and doesn't follow club announcements closely is wondering WTF is going on and when will it turn around.

Do a poll if we lose tomorrow. ;D

Do a poll if we lose tomorrow. ;D

;D

It won't be pretty
Probably better to do it now ;)

Whatever the result tomorrow we just have to put in a very very convincing performance! Maybe "line in the sand"  would be too strong a term but it's pretty damn close.

I'm not really sure how you can quote Daisy Thomas (who as far as I can tell is a player, not a supporter) and from that conclude that some supporters may think CC is laissez faire, and therefore not like it ?

The Swans supporter base voted for Roos out of love and loyalty, not football knowledge. Some coaches make it work at one club and not others. Wallace may have netted the Swans 2 or 3 flags, or 2 or 3 spoons. We will never know. The point is that the clubs spend a lot more time and effort in making these decisions, and make them with access to a wealth of knowledge that supporters can only dream of. Us humans are unpredictable buggers. Trying to select the right human for a particular task will never have a 100% success rate. But the right systems, methods and processes are critical. Otherwise we end up with the club equivalent of the car Homer Simpson designed.

So we can't use Daisy Thomas' evaluation of a player because he isn't a supporter.

Yet, you go on to say that the club knows best.

No comment about the salary cap breaches i threw in there?
Pretty sure supporters would know its not the right way to run a club. ;)

Why would Thomas call C Curnow dumb and tell other clube he has no idea where to run? Just giving ammunition and information to opposition clubs. Can't see how this helps Carlton

Why would Thomas call C Curnow dumb and tell other clube he has no idea where to run? Just giving ammunition and information to opposition clubs. Can't see how this helps Carlton

I think it was more about once he has the ball, rather than when he is trying to get it.

Him being unpredictable to his teammates means the opposition certainly can't plan for him.

Why would Thomas call C Curnow dumb and tell other clube he has no idea where to run? Just giving ammunition and information to opposition clubs. Can't see how this helps Carlton

My take on it was that Daisy was suggesting CC is goofy, nothing more than that. He suggested he does things in a way that makes him  unpredictable. There was no malice whatsoever.

So we can't use Daisy Thomas' evaluation of a player because he isn't a supporter.

Yet, you go on to say that the club knows best.

No comment about the salary cap breaches i threw in there?
Pretty sure supporters would know its not the right way to run a club. ;)

You stated that no CFC player would be universally loved, then include as "evidence" for this fact comments made by Thomas wrt CC ?

The issue of whether to play by the rules or not is vexed and one that constantly appears in various guises on here. I've lost count of how many posts on here I've read about how we are now a club of goody two shoes, whilst other clubs get away with blue murder because they don't play by the rules. So now that we are honest, law abiding citizens, does that make us well run ? Should we as supporters tell the club we know best because other clubs are rorting the system and gaining an advantage ? Do clubs other than us "know best ?"

My take on it was that Daisy was suggesting CC is goofy, nothing more than that. He suggested he does things in a way that makes him  unpredictable. There was no malice whatsoever.

x2.....I know that Ben Reid at Collingwood is known for being as thick as six fire doors, cant play to instruction and they take the pi55 out of him all the time but the players all love him and its said in jest, Charlie probably is seen as equally goofy/thick but its in an affectionate way and Thomas was only having a bit of fun like mates do....

In the real world you can't expect this list to be anymore than it currently is, given it's demographics.  If at the start of the season Essendon had our list we would have all said that a bottom 2 list.   Otherwise you are getting into Murray Goulbern Areas of telling everyone you will get $4 a litre for milk, when the market wants to pay $2

Our blue chips talent is all at the bottom end age wise.  It's difficult to draw parallels with North who still have Higgins, Goldstein, Robbie Tarrant, Ziebell, Cunnington, Brown all 25 years old with 100 odd games of football?   Who do we have in this bracket to match that?   Our blokes at that age bracket are Kerridge, Lamb, Mullett, Shaw, Phillips, Jones, Casboult, Wright, Curnow, Kreuzer, Lobbe.    Battlers and honest footballers.   These are the guys that are consistent with their performance week in week out.
North haven't cut back like we have.  They still have talent at the top end.    If they traded Zeibell and Higgins maybe.   

In 3-4 years time who will have the better list when this bracket moves on.

So timeframe?

GWS took 4 years to break 50/50, but had a massive injection of young talent.

Maybe similar to the Demons rebuild.    Vintage 2012.

Moved (or lost)  Rivers, Moloney, Stef Martin, Green, Sylvia, Frawley.   Cut the dead wood and didn't have much top end older talent.

2012: 16th 4 wins.   Rebuild Starts
2013:  17th 2 wins
2014:  17th 4 wins
2015:  13th 7 wins.
2016:  11th 10 wins.
2017:  9th  12 wins.

Now Melbourne haven't mastered the rebuild.   It's not the Blueprint, but it shows how long it can take and yes I think it can be done quicker with FA etc.   But you have Gawn (26), Viney (24), Hogan (23), Salem (22), Petracca (22), Hunt (23), Tyson (24) all at that 60-100 game bracket.   Add Oliver and you are on your way.
   
I would think bottom 4 next year.

 

Thats a comprehensive answer, you make a lot of good points and I agree with your theory of bottom four next season....while I am happy to agree I'm not so sure the average supporter will see an extended rebuild built on development at the expense of results for too long as acceptable or the media who like a unsuccessful coach/club or two as a target for for headlines....

My take on it was that Daisy was suggesting CC is goofy, nothing more than that. He suggested he does things in a way that makes him  unpredictable. There was no malice whatsoever.

Agreed. Thought that came across in my post, but perhaps not.

You stated that no CFC player would be universally loved, then include as "evidence" for this fact comments made by Thomas wrt CC ?

The issue of whether to play by the rules or not is vexed and one that constantly appears in various guises on here. I've lost count of how many posts on here I've read about how we are now a club of goody two shoes, whilst other clubs get away with blue murder because they don't play by the rules. So now that we are honest, law abiding citizens, does that make us well run ? Should we as supporters tell the club we know best because other clubs are rorting the system and gaining an advantage ? Do clubs other than us "know best ?"

So you avoided the 'club knows best' question in regards to salary cap. Nice.

The point of including Daisys comments was to point out a side that you personally do not see. There are plenty of people who see things that you do not see. Doesn't make them right, or wrong, but spend enough time in the outer and you will hear every single player being cursed out by 'fans'. Some of them justified, many not. Are these people 'normal', depends on your position at the time. Its all relative.

So you avoided the 'club knows best' question in regards to salary cap. Nice.

The point of including Daisys comments was to point out a side that you personally do not see. There are plenty of people who see things that you do not see. Doesn't make them right, or wrong, but spend enough time in the outer and you will hear every single player being cursed out by 'fans'. Some of them justified, many not. Are these people 'normal', depends on your position at the time. Its all relative.

Thanks for the lesson in postmodernism - much appreciated. 

At no point did I say the club was infallible - what I said was the club (any club) is club is filled with professional people who know more about football and running a football club than the punters. A position which I consider to be accurate. Even if, as we saw in the Eliot era, the club was run by dinosaurs who achieved success under an old system, and were unable or unwilling to adopt to a new system. Did the club make bad decisions at the time ? Of course. Should we hand over the reins to amateurs because they know cheating is dodgy ? No thanks.

I was more vociferous than just about anyone in respect of sacking Ratts - I thought it was a sh1t decision then, and nothing that's happened since has caused me to change my mind. Do I know more than the club ? Is it a case of Paully knows best, and the club is full of numb nuts ?

The club does know best, but that doesn't mean they are not capable of stuff ups. Some people might believe that there is a yawning chasm between success and failure, that the distance between 1st and 18th is enormous. I think it's much closer than most people think.

The Ratten decision Paul on the face of it and with the benefit of hindsight looks poor, but we have no idea what keeping him as coach would have meant.


It may have resulted in an even poorer outcome (which seems difficult to imagine)  but perhaps a Murphy Gibbs departure back then...  We'll never know and must simply respect that the club made its bed and is now lying in it.

It might have turned into a flag (doubtful our key positions weren't great and our midfield has never looked even close to as effective as it was without Judd and Murphy in full flight).

I don't deny any of that Thry.

Once you sack them you lose the right to say how things would have turned out.

How would a Pagan side with Judd, a young Kreuzer and a maturing Gibbs and Murphy have fared.
A Ratten side with Cripps and Docherty
Malthouse with the current list ???


You cant say.
We'll never know (but I think some folk might have a guess ;D )

Once you sack them you lose the right to say how things would have turned out.

How would a Pagan side with Judd, a young Kreuzer and a maturing Gibbs and Murphy have fared.
A Ratten side with Cripps and Docherty
Malthouse with the current list ???


You cant say.
We'll never know (but I think some folk might have a guess ;D )

I'd take your thoughts a little further and say:

How would a Pagan side with Judd, a young Kreuzer, a maturing Gibbs, Murphy and a decent list manager (eg SOS) have fared.
A Ratten side with Cripps, Docherty and a decent list manager (eg SOS)
Malthouse with the current list and a decent list manager (eg SOS) ???

Its been a bug bear of mine for years and years. Finally, we seem to have someone with at least a half a brain in charge of that area.

Once you sack them you lose the right to say how things would have turned out.

How would a Pagan side with Judd, a young Kreuzer and a maturing Gibbs and Murphy have fared.
A Ratten side with Cripps and Docherty
Malthouse with the current list ???


You cant say.
We'll never know (but I think some folk might have a guess ;D )

Not disagreeing Lods but the club has a little more to go on when they make their decisions wouldn't you say?

Once you sack them you lose the right to say how things would have turned out.

How would a Pagan side with Judd, a young Kreuzer and a maturing Gibbs and Murphy have fared.
A Ratten side with Cripps and Docherty
Malthouse with the current list ???


You cant say.
We'll never know (but I think some folk might have a guess ;D )

I'm going to take an very educated guess and I reckon, like most of us too, I'd be right.

Pagan would've still been on the bottom, Ratten needed SOS with him, not Wayne Hughes, as that could've changed heaps. Malthouse would've been more than useful with this list 10 years previous, alot more, but at the end he was past it and the players weren't playing for him.

I'm going to take an very educated guess and I reckon, like most of us too, I'd be right.

Pagan would've still been on the bottom, Ratten needed SOS with him, not Wayne Hughes, as that could've changed heaps. Malthouse would've been more than useful with this list 10 years previous, alot more, but at the end he was past it and the players weren't playing for him.

Yep
But yoú'll never know ...will you? ;)

Yep
But yoú'll never know ...will you? ;)

Let's just say i'm glad a couple of them didn't hang around to find out..lol.

Let's just say i'm glad a couple of them didn't hang around to find out..lol.

Fair enough ;D

I have been going thru the lists of all the clubs as I have been trying to get a handle on where we are in regards to the rebuild. I have broken all the players into three categories based on their year of birth: these being 97-99; 90-96; & 89 and earlier. Originally I was going to concentrate on the main list with the Rookies being an adjunct, but Geelong & Port Adelaide do not appear to have Rookies as such so I have lumped everybody in together. I have also had a look at the make up of the 97-99 group looking at how many top 30 players out of the draft as well as how many top 10. At what number you are drafted is a bit like birth weight and your Tertiary Enter Score, interesting at the time but not that relevant overall in your career. Logic tells us that the more early pick you have the most likely it is a club should have a good list into the future.

Team:         Top 10   Top 30   97-99    90-96  89+
Adelaide:       (0)        (4)        12          23      9
Brisbane:       (2)        (9)        15          25      5
Carlton:         (5)       (10)       19          17      9
Collingwood:  (1)        (2)        12          25      8
Essendon:      (3)        (5)        13          29      6
Fremantle:     (3)        (4)        14          24      6
Geelong:        (0)        (3)        13          25      7
Gold Coast:    (5)        (7)        18          22      5
GWS:             (3)        (9)        12          26      6
Hawthorn:      (0)        (2)        14          21     10
Melbourne:     (2)        (3)          9          30      5
North Melb:    (1)        (4)         16         24       5
Richmond:      (0)        (6)        13          26      6
Port Adelaide: (0)        (2)         14         26       5
St.Kilda:         (2)        (4)         11         30       4
Sydney:          (1)        (4)        14          24      8
West Coast:    (2)        (5)         16          22      7
West Bulldogs:(0)        (7)         13          26      5

What strikes me about the breakdown is how far out of kilter our list is compared to others, particular with that mid aged range group. Also in that mid range, I would think that players like O'Shea, Mullet, Graham & Shaw would be at the bottom end of our list. With our younger players, eight will move out of that group next year and seven the following, with only four or five younger aged people a year coming into the club over the next couple of years, I would expect that group to settle closer to the mean. We are also above average on older age range. Over the next three years we have three players moving into age group, Casboult, Jones & Lamb, so to get in balance of thiose three and the nine on the list, five or six would have to go.
Of the other teams, I would suggest that Essendon, Melbourne & St.Kilda are all in, so if their current plan doesn't work, they could be in trouble in the next couple of years, while Adelaide, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Geelong & Port Adelaide don't appear to have a lot coming through.

The difference is that we have a future now.   Back then we had stuff all under 21 talent and our mature agers weren't giving us much.

Even if we recruit poorly from here in about 50 games we should improve significantly simply with what we have.

When mick was fired that wasn't the case.

You presume we keep all of the young talent we have. Going to be a challenge

The difference is that we have HOPE FOR a future now.   Back then we had stuff all under 21 talent and our mature agers weren't giving us much.

Even if we recruit poorly from here in about 50 games we should improve significantly simply with what we have.

When mick was fired that wasn't the case.

We have nothing until we have something.

We had HOPE when we recruited Watson, Mitchell and McCarthy that our KP woes were over for the next decade with all of that young tall talent on our list.  :-[

We SHOULD improve.
We SHOULD'VE improved under 2 previous multi-premiership coaches we had on our list.
etc

I agree this time looks brighter than previously, but still....we've been fooled before.

We have nothing until we have something.

We had HOPE when we recruited Watson, Mitchell and McCarthy that our KP woes were over for the next decade with all of that young tall talent on our list.  :-[

We SHOULD improve.
We SHOULD'VE improved under 2 previous multi-premiership coaches we had on our list.
etc

I agree this time looks brighter than previously, but still....we've been fooled before.

Nope.  4 years ago we had aging stars.

Now we have cripps, fisher, Docherty and curnowfidis.  Dow, Marchbank, Weitering and SPS.

All look like ten year players.  We have a future.   Three years ago, we had Chris Judd, Bryce Gibbs,  Marc Murphy and Kreuzer who we couldn't get on the Park.

We are in a much better position without the wishful thinking.

It doesn't mean success will come,  but we have built a base that can be built on now.

Nope.  4 years ago we had aging stars.

Now we have cripps, fisher, Docherty and curnowfidis.  Dow, Marchbank, Weitering and SPS.

All look like ten year players.  We have a future.   Three years ago, we had Chris Judd, Bryce Gibbs,  Marc Murphy and Kreuzer who we couldn't get on the Park.

We are in a much better position without the wishful thinking.

It doesn't mean success will come,  but we have built a base that can be built on now.

4 years ago we had the following players in the 21-24 age group on the senior list.

Gibbs
Yarran
Garlett
Robinson
Henderson
Tuohy
Bell
Lucas
Everett
Ellard
Watson
McInness
and
Kreuzer
Casboult
E. Curnow

So 4 years ago, 3 of our 15 (next generation) players are left, the rest are no longer on the list.

Of course i could expand that further to include 18-20yo's as well, you know the future of the club...
Menzel
Buckley
Holman
Bootsma
Temay
Giles
and
Graham
Docherty
Cripps

So we only have 6 out of 24 players from our 'future' still on our list.
18 out of 24 players aged 18-24, are NO LONGER on our list.

Tell me again why our 'aging' list was the problem?

We can't get too caught up with our kids being locked in as we can see from above, we've been very wrong before. Doesn't have to be just about talent either.
Players want out.
Players go off the rails.
Players get injuries.
Players get booted out.

Yep

We can look at our current list of promising youngsters and say the future is assured, but guys like Menzel and Buckley were rising star nominations four years ago.

(of course some folks will say they "knew all along they wouldn't make it"...but if you didn't declare it then ...we don't believe you! ;D )

4 years ago we had the following players in the 21-24 age group on the senior list.

Gibbs
Yarran
Garlett
Robinson
Henderson
Tuohy
Bell
Lucas
Everett
Ellard
Watson
McInness
and
Kreuzer
Casboult
E. Curnow

So 4 years ago, 3 of our 15 (next generation) players are left, the rest are no longer on the list.

Of course i could expand that further to include 18-20yo's as well, you know the future of the club...
Menzel
Buckley
Holman
Bootsma
Temay
Giles
and
Graham
Docherty
Cripps

So we only have 6 out of 24 players from our 'future' still on our list.
18 out of 24 players aged 18-24, are NO LONGER on our list.

Tell me again why our 'aging' list was the problem?

We can't get too caught up with our kids being locked in as we can see from above, we've been very wrong before. Doesn't have to be just about talent either.
Players want out.
Players go off the rails.
Players get injuries.
Players get booted out.

Two quick points.

1. You might want to check your 21-24 age group from 4 years ago.  Some of these blokes (Kreuzer and Gibbs) have somehow managed to age 5 years in 4.  Casboult was 24 already and an unproven commodity.

I just checked even Lachlan Henderson Mitch Robinson and Jeff Garlett turn 29 this year!! That 21-24 age group was full of middle agers!

2. That's a serious reach.  Most of our kids have shown more positives about their attitude and ability than we had then, and for the first time since Fevola we've drafted key forwards that can hit the scoreboard multiple times in a game consistently and they aren't even in your subjective 21-24 year age group!

Think back to our 2013 9th place finish.  We had stuff all key defenders,  stuff all key forwards and our midfield batted as deep then as it does today except we have genuine kids playing in all these roles rather than relative question marks.

I don't know how well these guys will all go, but I've seen enough to suggest the future is absolutely looking better than it did, even if it's tough going right now and only a pessimist would look at our list and see no future.   That doesn't mean what you say can't come out to pass but there's enough substance to work with that says we should be ok.

Think about it, I'm not a blind optimist, I'm a realist.
Even macreadie has shown more than Matthew Watson had back then!

@LODS I wanted a broom through the place years ago. 

Edited underlined.  Our promise today lies largely IMHO in a bunch of sub 22 year olds.  The opposite was true back then.

@LODS I wanted a broom through the place years ago.

That's the beauty of a forum like this :D
Predictions or judgements we make can always be checked later on.
It's why I'm always careful to use the old..."we don't know how he/she/ it... will develop or work out" :D
Threads like these will make funny reading in 4 years time. ;)

Two quick points.

1. You might want to check your 21-24 age group from 4 years ago.  Some of these blokes (Kreuzer and Gibbs) have somehow managed to age 5 years in 4.  Casboult was 24 already and an unproven commodity.

I just checked even Lachlan Henderson Mitch Robinson and Jeff Garlett turn 29 this year!! That 21-24 age group was full of middle agers!

2. That's a serious reach.  Most of our kids have shown more positives about their attitude and ability than we had then, and for the first time since Fevola we've drafted key forwards that can hit the scoreboard multiple times in a game consistently and they aren't even in your subjective 21-24 year age group!

Think back to our 2013 9th place finish.  We had stuff all key defenders,  stuff all key forwards and our midfield batted as deep then as it does today except we have genuine kids playing in all these roles rather than relative question marks.

I don't know how well these guys will all go, but I've seen enough to suggest the future is absolutely looking better than it did, even if it's tough going right now and only a pessimist would look at our list and see no future.   That doesn't mean what you say can't come out to pass but there's enough substance to work with that says we should be ok.

Think about it, I'm not a blind optimist, I'm a realist.
Even macreadie has shown more than Matthew Watson had back then!

@LODS I wanted a broom through the place years ago. 

Edited underlined.  Our promise today lies largely IMHO in a bunch of sub 22 year olds.  The opposite was true back then.

I got the list of ages from here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Carlton_Football_Club_season
Has a quote in regards to the squad...

Squad for 2014

Statistics are correct as of end of 2013 season. Flags represent the state of origin, i.e. the state in which the player played his Under-18s football.

I saw no reason to check that info, and based on that time-frame, i think it eliminates your 'anomalies' mentioned.

As for the relative performance of each list, i have no doubt that our current crop is better.
However, considering, 80% of that list is no longer at the club, its not hard to come to that conclusion.
So yes, they are better, doesn't mean they are 'good enough' to get us into finals, and win one...or 3-4.

Again, what if Cripps decides to do a gibbs and go home?
What if Doc never recovers from his knee?
What if McKay decides to leave and play with his brother?
What if Curnow does a knee and is never the same again?
What if Kennedy never gets over his ankle?
What if SPS and Williamson get into some off-field trouble and get sent packing?

Its not a huge stretch is it?

I got the list of ages from here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Carlton_Football_Club_season
Has a quote in regards to the squad...I saw no reason to check that info, and based on that time-frame, i think it eliminates your 'anomalies' mentioned.

As for the relative performance of each list, i have no doubt that our current crop is better.
However, considering, 80% of that list is no longer at the club, its not hard to come to that conclusion.
So yes, they are better, doesn't mean they are 'good enough' to get us into finals, and win one...or 3-4.

Again, what if Cripps decides to do a gibbs and go home?
What if Doc never recovers from his knee?
What if McKay decides to leave and play with his brother?
What if Curnow does a knee and is never the same again?
What if Kennedy never gets over his ankle?
What if SPS and Williamson get into some off-field trouble and get sent packing?

Its not a huge stretch is it?

I can't agree.

I think you're being overly negative in much the same way flyboy was being overly positive with respect to this season.

Even our worst recruits in jack Silvagni and Cameron polson look better than Watson.

Then you start putting Harry McKay next to McCarthy,  Charlie Curnow next to Menzel,  polson next to Temay,  Patrick Kerr next to Luke Mitchell,  Weitering next to Mitchell,  SPS next to Clement Smith, and realise that our youngsters already look better.

that's before you think of Dow and o brien.

I can't agree.

I think you're being overly negative in much the same way flyboy was being overly positive with respect to this season.

Even our worst recruits in jack Silvagni and Cameron polson look better than Watson.

Then you start putting Harry McKay next to McCarthy,  Charlie Curnow next to Menzel,  polson next to Temay,  Patrick Kerr next to Luke Mitchell,  Weitering next to Mitchell,  SPS next to Clement Smith, and realise that our youngsters already look better.

that's before you think of Dow and o brien.

I'm not being negative.
I'm not saying its going to happen.

What i'm saying is that it is plausible. Unlikely, but definitely possible.

Until we have some results, we have nothing. Currently we have a better chance of getting something, but still have nothing.

The whole thing is like a lottery.
Before we had a couple of tickets, but won nothing.

Now we have a lot more tickets, but are guaranteed to win.....nothing. Our chances are better, but still unknown.

See I'm not giving you success or a premiership.   I'm arguing that we have a better chance of having an afl capable competitive team which we can then build on in the future without languishing on the bottom of the ladder like we have over the last three years.

See I'm not giving you success or a premiership.   I'm arguing that we have a better chance of having an afl capable competitive team which we can then build on in the future without languishing on the bottom of the ladder like we have over the last three years.

This is where I struggle a bit
Aren't we only languishing on the bottom because we chose to rebuild.
In the four of the six years prior to that we we played finals...an AFL competitive team.
You could guess our side was on the decline...but who knows what our trading and drafting strategy would have been with a less dramatic list management.
Top-ups and changes could just as easily have left us competitive.

See I'm not giving you success or a premiership.   I'm arguing that we have a better chance of having an afl capable competitive team which we can then build on in the future without languishing on the bottom of the ladder like we have over the last three years.

I agree we have a better chance....not saying otherwise.

However, thats with hindsight knowing how the old team ended up.

What will we think of this team 4 years from now?
Right now, we have high hopes.

4 years ago, we probably had high hopes too.

What we can't see now, that we will see in the future is possibly some of what i mentioned in the what if category.

I give the same speech every year when trying to temper the predictions for the year.

Almost every year there is the following that people fail to take into consideration...
1. A (potential shock) retirement
2. An ageing star failing to live up to their usual high standards
3. A young kid going backwards with 2nd year blues.
4. A long term injury (or 2.....3...)

...and a couple of other things i can't recall right now.

Apply the same to our current list and it already starts to look a little bleak.

1. Simpson - can we cover him? No.
2. Murphy - Injuries seem to be getting the better of him
3. Weitering, Jack, SPS - doesn't have to be '2nd' year exactly, but you get the point
4. Docherty - Currently, but potentially Murphy....we'll lose someone else soon enough too. Have lost Pickett for half a year so far. There will be more.

EDIT:
5. A recruit not living up to expectations.....

5. Kennedy.

This is where I struggle a bit
Aren't we only languishing on the bottom because we chose to rebuild.
In the four of the six years prior to that we we played finals...an AFL competitive team.
You could guess our side was on the decline...but who knows what our trading and drafting strategy would have been with a less dramatic list management.
Top-ups and changes could just as easily have left us competitive.

We finished dead last before we embarked on this rebuild and we weren't bullish about the future in the year Malthouse got sacked.  I said four years ago for a reason.  We had sacked Mitch,  Jeff,  Laidler, Waite had walked,  Carrazzo was retiring ellard pulled the pin.

We said back then it would take years not because the club told us, but logic stated it.

I agree we have a better chance....not saying otherwise.

However, thats with hindsight knowing how the old team ended up.

What will we think of this team 4 years from now?
Right now, we have high hopes.

4 years ago, we probably had high hopes too.

What we can't see now, that we will see in the future is possibly some of what i mentioned in the what if category.

I give the same speech every year when trying to temper the predictions for the year.

Almost every year there is the following that people fail to take into consideration...
1. A (potential shock) retirement
2. An ageing star failing to live up to their usual high standards
3. A young kid going backwards with 2nd year blues.
4. A long term injury (or 2.....3...)

...and a couple of other things i can't recall right now.

Apply the same to our current list and it already starts to look a little bleak.

1. Simpson - can we cover him? No.
2. Murphy - Injuries seem to be getting the better of him
3. Weitering, Jack, SPS - doesn't have to be '2nd' year exactly, but you get the point
4. Docherty - Currently, but potentially Murphy....we'll lose someone else soon enough too. Have lost Pickett for half a year so far. There will be more.

EDIT:
5. A recruit not living up to expectations.....

5. Kennedy.

There weren't high hopes four years ago.  the future was at best uncertain.

We finished dead last before we embarked on this rebuild and we weren't bullish about the future in the year Malthouse got sacked.  I said four years ago for a reason.  We had sacked Mitch,  Jeff,  Laidler, Waite had walked,  Carrazzo was retiring ellard pulled the pin.

We said back then it would take years not because the club told us, but logic stated it.

No we didn't ???

We finished 13/18 in 2014, not good but an injury hit season from memory.
The rebuild was declared in April 2015 and straight away sucked the life out of the team as far as season 2015 was concerned.
What the thoughts of many of those players were at the time who were on the fringe can only be imagined.... but it wouldn't have made for productive football.
Over 25 and you would know the chances of you being around when the club next had success would have been slim.
The turmoil around the coach only added to the problem

We cant change the date of the start of the rebuild to coincide with the point where list changes were starting to be made so it fits the narrative of finishing last.
The rebuild and planning for it commenced when the club declared it in April.
And doubtless to say.... the emphasis on performance under Barker would have been more concerned with "list management" than wins ;)

No we didn't ???

We finished 13/18 in 2014, not good but an injury hit season from memory.
The rebuild was declared in April 2015 and straight away sucked the life out of the team as far as season 2015 was concerned.
What the thoughts of many of those players were at the time who were on the fringe can only be imagined.... but it wouldn't have made for productive football.
Over 25 and you would know the chances of you being around when the club next had success would have been slim.
The turmoil around the coach only added to the problem

We cant change the date of the start of the rebuild to coincide with the point where list changes were starting to be made so it fits the narrative of finishing last.
The rebuild and planning for it commenced when the club declared it in April.
And doubtless to say.... the emphasis on performance under Barker would have been more concerned with "list management" than wins ;)

How did you think we were going to go in 2015 after bringing in Liam Jones, Waite left on free agent, and our other prized recruit Kristian Jaksch played one game and looked not even half as good as McKay??

How did you think we were going to go in 2015 after bringing in Liam Jones, Waite left on free agent, and our other prized recruit Kristian Jaksch played one game and looked not even half as good as McKay??

To be honest
“It was very, very difficult to see where we were going to lose a game,
I couldn't see it. I’m an optimist. I looked at them and thought: ‘Gee, they’re a good bunch of kids’, I love them and I reckon they can get the best out of themselves and we can have a damn good year.
The most important thing was that people said that they had a crack at it. .”

 ;D

......Well maybe not that optimistic

But Jones and Jaksch (former first rounder) came with positive wraps. The draft turned out to be a disaster but we didn't know that at the start of the year and thought we may have picked up some good youngsters. While not as positive as Mick I thought finals were a chance...But I think finals are a chance every year. I am an optimist.

We'd had a down year in 2014 but the disaster of 2015 was pretty much of our own making by declaring a rebuild a few rounds in and further complicated by the loss of our Coach and more importantly our Captain.

It was a WTF are they thinking... writing a season off a few rounds in.

Do you not remember sacking:

Laidler
Robinson
Garlett
Waite walking

Replacing them with tutt and Jones, Jaksch, Whiley,  boekhorst.

Read this thread:

OPINION : Our Next Premiership - Without Judd & Co ??

It's a highlight reel of where we thought we were in 2014.

We were on a road to nowhere.  Gozza, sheik and quite a few others were reading the tea leaves a bit.  I was blindly optimistic.  We were looking ordinary from a while back and quite a few posters called that we needed to rebuild back then.

Do you not remember sacking:

Laidler
Robinson
Garlett
Waite walking

Replacing them with tutt and Jones, Jaksch, Whiley,  boekhorst.

Yep.

Those replacements looked pretty good to a lot of people 4 years ago.
I would have done most of those swaps...at the time!

Laidler was playing playing fairly average football for us but a few thought he was hard done by.while he had some support not many were very upset by him going.
For me it wasn't a great loss
Robinson and Garlett had proven to be undisciplined and were regarded as just good average players at best.
...and Waite was either injured or suspended.

Of the incoming all were sold as having the ability to offer something, except perhaps Tutt.
As it turned out we were disappointed.

Hindsight is a terrific thing

Robbo- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1537.0
Garlett- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1622.0
Waite- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1225.0
Laidler- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=402.0

Now plenty of doubters in this lot but also quite a few pointing out positive aspects...

Whiley- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1641.0
Boekhorst- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1728.0
Jones- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1601.0
Jaksch- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1554.0


So at the time it was pretty much like for like with our wins and losses....but with hindsight maybe not ::)

...and folks have been using the term 'rebuild' since 2002 on this forum.
and Sheik had most of the first group on his 'sacked' or 'cracked' list

Most of us will never the complete truth , but how Waite & Eddie were able to leave , but still playing good football for there clubs kicking goals , an area we are so depleted in , I will never understand. Especially Waite, since he left we haven't had recognised forward except Levi on the books even.

With Waite, look at the way North have handled him.  We didn't

With Waite, look at the way North have handled him.  We didn't

Spot on Capcom , there was another thread here a while back re our quality of medical management, we all complain about him missing games , yes dissappointing , but maybe our lack of detail here was showing

How did you think we were going to go in 2015 after bringing in Liam Jones, Waite left on free agent, and our other prized recruit Kristian Jaksch played one game and looked not even half as good as McKay??

Jaksch had some ability but just didn't work hard on his training and fitness. Generally a bad attitude. Anyone else who played as well at both ends of the ground in the VFL and kicks as many goals as he did would've been straight in. He was never in due to a poor attitude and eventually sacked. His fault.

Yep.

Those replacements looked pretty good to a lot of people 4 years ago.
I would have done most of those swaps...at the time!

Laidler was playing playing fairly average football for us but a few thought he was hard done by.while he had some support not many were very upset by him going.
For me it wasn't a great loss
Robinson and Garlett had proven to be undisciplined and were regarded as just good average players at best.
...and Waite was either injured or suspended.

Of the incoming all were sold as having the ability to offer something, except perhaps Tutt.
As it turned out we were disappointed.

Hindsight is a terrific thing

Robbo- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1537.0
Garlett- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1622.0
Waite- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1225.0
Laidler- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=402.0

Now plenty of doubters in this lot but also quite a few pointing out positive aspects...

Whiley- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1641.0
Boekhorst- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1728.0
Jones- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1601.0
Jaksch- http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=1554.0


So at the time it was pretty much like for like with our wins and losses....but with hindsight maybe not ::)

...and folks have been using the term 'rebuild' since 2002 on this forum.
and Sheik had most of the first group on his 'sacked' or 'cracked' list

My point being was, that we were not bullish about our future then.

Look how much has to go right:

MK develops into a good ruckman
Murphy has a great year
Thomas gets over his injury and returns to form
Waite gets on the park and isn't past it
Judd isn't broken
Garlett plays well without Betts
Robinson clicks under MM
Watson goes from a twos player to holding down a key post
Gibbs and Yarran pull their fingers out
Carrots gets on the park and the game hasn;t gone past him.
Curnow continues to be an good tagger

Too many question marks all over the ground for this year. Maybe it clicks in 2015 but it would be looking ominous for those guys.

Read this post.  Have a look at the caveats ItsOurTime made about our list back then.

Read that thread.  Note the month of discussion.  January, 2014.  Our great white hopes back then, were 24 year old blokes kicking on and becoming stars of the competition, not the kids developing into 4 quarter players.

The point of difference is that we've gone a "stripping back and youth" approach as opposed to what we've done in the past

We're arguing  with this approach we'll be back playing finals in  a couple of years after 5-6 years out of the eight....and hopefully seeing a sustained period of success.
I'd suggest there is a good chance we'd be there anyway through the natural rotation of clubs...without the pain

After all we did 'rebuild' it in an  entirely different way in the period 2002 to 2009  and stayed in the finals for 4 out of the next 5 years despite an absolute off-field turmoil.

If many of the things IOT mentioned had gone right instead of wrong in the years following we might still be there, and even progressing....but we've had disasters with coaches, injuries to key personnel, loss of players and lack of development.

My issue has always been with this 'absolute certainty' that things will work out through the current 'different' approach.
We don't know that.
We can hope.
...and we should also be free to comment about aspects of the rebuild that concerns us.

The point of difference is that we've gone a "stripping back and youth" approach as opposed to what we've done in the past

We're arguing  with this approach we'll be back playing finals in  a couple of years after 5-6 years out of the eight....and hopefully seeing a sustained period of success.
I'd suggest there is a good chance we'd be there anyway through the natural rotation of clubs...without the pain

After all we did 'rebuild' it in an  entirely different way in the period 2002 to 2009  and stayed in the finals for 4 out of the next 5 years despite an absolute off-field turmoil.

If many of the things IOT mentioned had gone right instead of wrong in the years following we might still be there, and even progressing....but we've had disasters with coaches, injuries to key personnel, loss of players and lack of development.

My issue has always been with this 'absolute certainty' that things will work out through the current 'different' approach.
We don't know that.
We can hope.
...and we should also be free to comment about aspects of the rebuild that concerns us.

Absolutely, and I support that 100%.

The thing is, I wasn't bullish in what we did at the time, it seemed "ok".  I actually like the way we are going about things, even if it doesnt work, and if we had our time over again, probably wouldnt do anything differently.

I am a bit dissapointed in this season thus far, but I personally think that it wasn't likely to be much better had things gone well, AND, I also think that a lot has gone wrong this season.

The future for me is a fairly certain, uncertainty is the best way to describe it.  For the first time since David Parkin left us, there has been a real focus on what we do, and how we do it, and we have also been fairly considered regarding what we have done.  that is not true of any of what we have done.  I think perhaps we should move this conversation to the reset thread, where it pretty much has  come back to discussing effectively.

Absolutely, and I support that 100%.

The thing is, I wasn't bullish in what we did at the time, it seemed "ok".  I actually like the way we are going about things, even if it doesnt work, and if we had our time over again, probably wouldnt do anything differently.

I am a bit dissapointed in this season thus far, but I personally think that it wasn't likely to be much better had things gone well, AND, I also think that a lot has gone wrong this season.

The future for me is a fairly certain, uncertainty is the best way to describe it.  For the first time since David Parkin left us, there has been a real focus on what we do, and how we do it, and we have also been fairly considered regarding what we have done.  that is not true of any of what we have done.  I think perhaps we should move this conversation to the reset thread, where it pretty much has  come back to discussing effectively.

Good point.
I'll split the thread and send them into the "reset".
I don't really disagree with anything you've said there.
Things are being done differently.
We're not going to change short term.
We cant reverse the process now, it's gone too far
.....lets see how it works out.

If Liddle is to be believed the focus now switches anyway.... to a group of talented mid-aged players.