Carlton Supporters Club

Next Sunday we play the 'Aints at Marvel in an afternoon game. The seconds are a curtain raiser.
On this week's effort, even the 'Aints should beat us.

We need to get back to basics more I think and for this match let's focus a lot  more on pressure and tackling and forcing errors. This has to be how we need to go forward now - Sunday showed we will always be cut to shreds if we don't. Even the Saints could do that to us if we give them too much leeway.

Aints home game, indigenous round, Sunday afternoon, I think we should get at least 27 at it, that is people not thousand!

I think "The Curiosity Show" or "Prof Julius Sumner Miller" could go there and do a special outside broadcast about how sound and echoes work?

In                  Out
Kerr               Casboult
Jones             Macreadie
Simpson        Murphy
Kennedy         Dow
Cunningham   O'Brien

Aints home game, indigenous round, Sunday afternoon, I think we should get at least 27 at it, that is people not thousand!

I rang up and asked what time the ball-up was - they asked "what time can you get here?"  ::)

It's far from a certainty.  Even a win will still see us last on the ladder.  That's depressing all by itself

I rang up and asked what time the ball-up was - they asked "what time can you get here?"  ::)

You're lucky they didn't ask you to bring your runners! :o

PS; Don't forget the lights when you leave!

Look at the bright side, with yourself and the two teams the population of Docklands doubles!

Dan Andrews said you can borrow his skateboard to get home, just make sure you steer clear of the Fossil as skateboards seem to be a bit of a red rag to him!

In                  Out
Kerr               Casboult
Jones             Macreadie
Simpson        Murphy
Kennedy         Dow
Cunningham   O'Brien

Largely agree, except maybe Setterfield instead of O'Brien out or maybe both and Lang in as well - assuming Slimmo comes up.

We should beat the Saints, injury ravaged, very small and a meek team with no Mummy and they dont have the players to look after Cripps who will rebound and dominate.
But like I said on other threads what will that prove?

Largely agree, except maybe Setterfield instead of O'Brien out or maybe both and Lang in as well - assuming Slimmo comes up.

Thought of Lang, but also thought 6 changes was a big axe!!

Thought of Lang, but also thought 6 changes was a big axe!!

Despite Lang's stats from the weekend, mostly it was from outside football and that would not have helped.

Our current inside midfield goes Cripps, Fisher ..........SPS........................................X

That's not to say Setterfield and others won;t come good long term, it's a statement about the now!

You're lucky they didn't ask you to bring your runners! :o

PS; Don't forget the lights when you leave!

OK, I'll slide the roof shut too if it's open.  8)

SPS only played 57% time on ground and I didn't sight him after about 3/4 time.  Concussion?  Injured? Might be in doubt.

I'd be only making slight tweaks rather than overhauling the team.  Bring in the blokes returning from injury, and take out blokes who are injured/giving us nothing.

Ironically o brienput in his best game of the year.

SPS only played 57% time on ground and I didn't sight him after about 3/4 time.  Concussion?  Injured? Might be in doubt.

I'd be only making slight tweaks rather than overhauling the team.  Bring in the blokes returning from injury, and take out blokes who are injured/giving us nothing.

Ironically o brienput in his best game of the year.

If letting blokes blow by you and not bothering to attempt to tackle properly is his best work then we have a problem...

OK, I'll slide the roof shut too if it's open.  8)

Are you a Barista, you could make a killing selling coffees to our coaching panel, they've got stuff all else to do and will need to kill some time, mostly in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters but anytime after the first 5 minutes?

If letting blokes blow by you and not bothering to attempt to tackle properly is his best work then we have a problem...

Bolton mentioned he had some ‘tightness’, based on that I’d expect him not to play.

If letting blokes blow by you and not bothering to attempt to tackle properly is his best work then we have a problem...

Yep we do.  I've yet to be convinced he's going to be a player.

You can see something in all the others.

I'm hearing Cuningham very doubtful, SPS and Simpson doubtful. No word on Jones, concussion is a different beast, hope he comes good soon

I'm hearing Cuningham very doubtful, SPS and Simpson doubtful. No word on Jones, concussion is a different beast, hope he comes good soon

Struggling to find fit bodies at present.

A few changes required this week. Some debutants?

Out:
SPS
Murphy
Obrien
Macreadie
Casboult (?)

In:
Kennedy
Lang
Polson
Goddard
Kerr (?)

Indigenous round this week?

We have 5 indigenous blokes on our list.
Jones - Injured.
Pickett - Injured.
SPS - Just got injured
LeBois - lucky to be on the list, could be injured, nobody notices him anyway.
Garlett - Gets a call up this week as last man standing?

Struggling to find fit bodies at present.

A few changes required this week. Some debutants?

Out:
SPS
Murphy
Obrien
Macreadie
Casboult (?)

In:
Kennedy
Lang
Polson
Goddard
Kerr (?)

Agree on those ins and they may even go Fasalo for the extra experience, not so sure Obrien will be dropped given the Saints dont play a hard brand.

These next few weeks we best start winning.

Reckon our next win comes against Essendon. When we feel like playing we have the right game to upset them and generally lift for them.

Struggling to find fit bodies at present.

A few changes required this week. Some debutants?

Out:
SPS
Murphy
Obrien
Macreadie
Casboult (?)

In:
Kennedy
Lang
Polson
Goddard
Kerr (?)

Sadly coming off a 100 point belting even the most optimistic supporters would agree we are even weaker this week. Polson.....haven’t we all seen enough. 

Plus Thomas will be suspended so we will be a lot younger again in a game we all know we must go all out for a win. We be another hiding if we play even more kids.  

Need Simpson, Jones, plowman and Cunningham if they are fit and only Kennedy as a young one for Thomas, McCreadie, O’Brien, Murphy and Setterfield.

Sadly coming off a 100 point belting even the most optimistic supporters would agree we are even weaker this week. Polson.....haven’t we all seen enough. 

Plus Thomas will be suspended so we will be a lot younger again in a game we all know we must go all out for a win. We be another hiding if we play even more kids.  

Need Simpson, Jones, plowman and Cunningham if they are fit and only Kennedy as a young one for Thomas, McCreadie, O’Brien, Murphy and Setterfield.

Cuningham very doubtful, Simpson and Plowman doubtful. Jones who knows. Murphy and SPS won't be available. Thomas should be OK to play. Must win games the next few, but running short of troops

This is a slice of what happened last outing:

ST KILDA is the latest team to heap misery on Carlton's floundering season, thanks to a comprehensive 64-point victory at Etihad Stadium on Friday night. 

The Saints produced a barnstorming eight-goal-to-two second half to relegate the Blues to their 49th consecutive score under 100 points.

They celebrated their fourth win for the season with a 16.20 (116) to 7.10 (52) score line, with Carlton in trouble from the moment it lost ruckman Matthew Kreuzer to an elevated heart rate nine minutes into the game.

BLUES' PAIN KEEPS GROWING

As much as I'd like to think we'll win. I think we'll go down easily by 5 goals.

Struggling to find fit bodies at present.

A few changes required this week. Some debutants?

Out:
SPS
Murphy
Obrien
Macreadie
Casboult (?)

In:
Kennedy
Lang
Polson
Goddard
Kerr (?)

Goddard (if no Jones) should have been in for the GWS game - picking Macreadie was stupid.

Anybody in for O'Brien - Lang had 28, well done son, you get a game.  Picking O'Brien was stupid.

Kennedy in for anybody - should have been back in weeks ago. Not playing him (given he had decent form in the 2s and that he is a big body) was stupid.

Kerr in for Charlie Curnow - abject mediocrity (all that Charlie has shown in 2019) doesn't get you a game. Picking Charlie was stupid.

Fas in for Murph, Ed C into the guts (his only sensible position). Playing Ed as a small forward is stupid.

Goddard (if no Jones) should have been in for the GWS game - picking Macreadie was stupid.

Anybody in for O'Brien - Lang had 28, well done son, you get a game.  Picking O'Brien was stupid.

Kennedy in for anybody - should have been back in weeks ago. Not playing him (given he had decent form in the 2s and that he is a big body) was stupid.

Kerr in for Charlie Curnow - abject mediocrity (all that Charlie has shown in 2019) doesn't get you a game. Picking Charlie was stupid.

Fas in for Murph, Ed C into the guts (his only sensible position). Playing Ed as a small forward is stupid.

Not a chance in hell, if you honour form then Polson and Lang should be promoted a mile ahead of Fasolo based on last weekend's VFL. Polson really cracked into contests, he made Fasolo and Lang both who are bigger than him look soft.

Semantics LP, semantics....

Semantics LP, semantics....

Not targeting you specifically, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm fairly sure you mentioned in another thread about the club not picking players who are in form, or persisting with players who are sadly out of form, and now you are offering an out of form player as a solution!

Not targeting you specifically, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm fairly sure you mentioned in another thread about the club not picking players who are in form, or persisting with players who are sadly out of form, and now you are offering an out of form player as a solution!

Tis not the point - Fas or Polson - who cares really....and I note Fas kicked 2 goals in the last quarter on the weekend?

See attached - hardly out of form?

Tis not the point - Fas or Polson - who cares really....and I note Fas kicked 2 goals in the last quarter on the weekend?

See attached - hardly out of form?

Did you watch the game?

If I recall one goal was a free kick down the field, and the other may have been a kick out the back. Fasolo spent all day getting ahead of the play, very little physical impact on play. I do admit that could be useful if the rest of the team are on a roll, but that is hardly the Carlton we know at the moment! In a team that is being bullied out of the contest at the coal-face another outside runner won't be a major help.

Thought of Lang, but also thought 6 changes was a big axe!!

After playing like witches hats and getting thumped by 93 points, I reckon making six changes isn't going hard enough.

We need to send a strong message not only to the playing group but the footy world outside that we do not accept lacklustre efforts like that.

Anyone (and I mean anyone) who is performing strongly in the seconds gets a game in place of those players who aren't trying hard enough in the seniors.

Added to that, every player who is older and more physically developed (Kennedy, Lang, Fasolo etc) have to come in and provide some immediate physicality. Casboult needs to be instructed to play the Mumford role and throw some weight around to hurt the opposition.

Young players like O'Brien must be sent back to the VFL for an extended period and do not return to the seniors until such time as they have developed a more hard nose 'win at all costs' approach.

And if Charlie Curnow wants to swan around the ground after drinking his own bathwater, he too can have an extended visit to the magoos. 

After playing like witches hats and getting thumped by 93 points, I reckon making six changes isn't going hard enough.

We need to send a strong message not only to the playing group but the footy world outside that we do not accept lacklustre efforts like that.

Anyone (and I mean anyone) who is performing strongly in the seconds gets a game in place of those players who aren't trying hard enough in the seniors.

Added to that, every player who is older and more physically developed (Kennedy, Lang, Fasolo etc) have to come in and provide some immediate physicality. Casboult needs to be instructed to play the Mumford role and throw some weight around to hurt the opposition.

Young players like O'Brien must be sent back to the VFL for an extended period and do not return to the seniors until such time as they have developed a more hard nose 'win at all costs' approach.

And if Charlie Curnow wants to swan around the ground after drinking his own bathwater, he too can have an extended visit to the magoos.

And so say all (most?) of us....

Polson.....haven’t we all seen enough. 

What we saw last week was a lack or pressure and chasing on the ball carrier. Polson brings both.
It's about time we reward effort, and penalise a lack of.

Casboult just isn't that kind of player,  he's too decent,  plays nice clean footy. He seems concerned about his actions on those around him ("Duty of care"), a memo a swag of players seem to have missed.

Cant drop every player that put in a bad game this week otherwise we wont field a team - Kennedy has to come in - just have to get a bigger body in the middle with Cripps.

We must field a team with the best chance of winning a few games in next month, which means no hacks like Polson, Fasolo or Garlett acting as witches hats. All these guys have frustrated us when in the senior team and show SFA and its only in sheer desperation that the same names are being mentioned again as though they will have a positive as we have some kids out of form. Well don't hold ya breath these list cloggers will do anything but guard space!

If we want any chance of getting a win im praying Simmo, Jones and even Plowman all get up, and Thomas gets off the charge with a fine. If they don't we wont win - simply as that.  

We need to send a strong message not only to the playing group but the footy world outside that we do not accept lacklustre efforts like that.

What a ridiculous comment. We as a club have been accepting of that type of effort for almost 2 decades. The club has lost it's soul and is devoid of any meaning other than to be the percentage booster for all other clubs.

We're a joke and until we dismantle the boys club that it is, it will remain so.

The sh*tness this club exudes on a yearly basis knows no bounds. I don't even get mad watching the shyte that they dish out on weekly basis anymore. I've literally become desensitised to it and simply watch in amusement at how bad we are as a club in virtually every aspect of football. The fact that after almost 2 decades we can't:

- Find a player who can hit a target and by that I mean by hand or by foot. You're not talking about late draft picks either. We have had arguably more high draft picks than any other club in the history of the AFL including GWS and GC, yet can't draft someone with any semblance of skills is mind boggling. By my count this is now 4 different list managers! Who the f*ck is employing these guys? Do they even know what skills to look for?
- Tackle
- Kick at goal accurately
- Work a simple zone
- Implement a decernable game plan
- Develop any leadership

Jesus, when you see what Dew has done with the Gold Coast, Geelong revamping their list with hardly any high draft picks and Port Adelaide injecting a crapload of talent in one off season and that talent showing something in it's first year really shows you the level of ineptness that Carlton has displayed over the past 2 decades.

This constant tripe about wait until the list matures is total shyte as well. We waited until Gibbs, Murphy and Kreuzer and a myriad of other first round picks matured and here we are. Left with a host of list cloggers and a club devoid of any talent.

I'm sick hearing "this time is different". No it's not, it's history repeating itself.

The only decent talent we do have is Cripps, Walsh and perhaps McKay. The rest is just meh to be honest. Turn over merchants by the bucket full and so easily bullied and so meek it's frightening to think these guys think they belong on a football field. Worse still, are those who drafted them initially but that's a whole new level of crappness to be discussed on another day.

Poor Cripps and Judd before him. The load these blokes have had to bear is bordering on criminal.

Skills are skills.

I read somewhere that our forwards go above 85% in goal kicking during the pre-game warm up, then deliver a fraction of that performance in real game time. That's not something that can be coached, it's an in game experience repetition issue.

Further the only way to filter out players is to give them game time and observe who improves and who doesn't, it's nothing to do with match selection, form, trading, drafting or coaching.

But it doesn't suit the BB bashers argument to admit things like that.

A pass/fail criterion that must be on our recruitment check list is "Does the player make good decisions with the ball?" We must not take players where the answer is NO! This quality is pretty much hard-wired so if you get this selection wrong you are pretty much stuck with it - coaching can only possibly change it with much work and attention or not change it at all.

A pass/fail criterion that must be on our recruitment check list is "Does the player make good decisions with the ball?" We must not take players where the answer is NO! This quality is pretty much hard-wired so if you get this selection wrong you are pretty much stuck with it - coaching can only possibly change it with much work and attention or not change it at all.

Fans point to Walsh as an example, but in reality Walsh is doing that stuff because he is allowed to be unaccountable for his direct opponent, and based on a few rumors of him sledging senior team-mates the kid needs to be reminded of that or eventually a team-mate will leave him high and dry Murphy Mumford style!

Does Carlton have the luxury of allowing Walsh to play that way for 3 or 4 years, like CheatsFC did with Zach Merrett? I'd say no because it means continued loses while the kids learn!

What we saw last week was a lack or pressure and chasing on the ball carrier. Polson brings both.
It's about time we reward effort, and penalise a lack of.

Polson would have made 2/10 of SFA last week, he would have cowered like the rest of them. Im over LOB and Polson, LOB in particular brings nothing. Polson tackles and applies pressure, doesnt kick goals or win a high number of possessions. You can only go so far with 1%ers.

If we are to believe Andrew Russell, Simmo, Plowman and Cuningham should be good to go with Jones still ‘a couple of weeks away’. I think we need an actual defender down back rather than Casboult. We might play Goddard and they might play Rowe!! 

That's a bad concussion for Jones. I hope they apply due care

If we are to believe Andrew Russell, Simmo, Plowman and Cuningham should be good to go with Jones still ‘a couple of weeks away’. I think we need an actual defender down back rather than Casboult. We might play Goddard and they might play Rowe!!

Saints dont really run with a tall forward line, they have leadup types like Membrey and Bruce and then rely on smalls like Billings,Gresham and newbie smalls Parker and Young.
They will look to run it in and hitup Membrey in particular, he doesnt miss very often so denying him the footy will go a long way to winning the game.
Parker is a highlight reel player, can kick the freak goals and also takes big speccy's like Liam Ryan but lacks consistency.

Josh Steele usually plays on Cripps and does ok, Dunstan is the relief tagger but there is no Jack Stevens this time and they only have junior ex forward in Marshall doing the rucking.

If we do our homework, plan properly we should win this game and win well IMO.....Saints are injury ravaged and run a very small non physical team which should suit us.

We have been the Saints bitches for years. I don't know where all the confidence comes from, we will probably get done by 5-6 goals. Its at Marvel where we have a shocking record, dont know where the circuit breaker will come from. Jones is another f/n away, the "stable back 6" is not there.
For mine

Outs: Murph, LOB, Ed, Charlie, Dow

Ins: Anyone with a pulse (not Polson) and who gives a fark about the jumper.

We have been the Saints bitches for years. I don't know where all the confidence comes from, we will probably get done by 5-6 goals. Its at Marvel where we have a shocking record, dont know where the circuit breaker will come from. Jones is another f/n away, the "stable back 6" is not there.
For mine

Outs: Murph, LOB, Ed, Charlie, Dow

Ins: Anyone with a pulse (not Polson) and who gives a fark about the jumper.

They have a lot of injuries, Stevens who has been a monkey player for us for years isnt there and they dont have a recognized ruckman.
Things are so bad they will probably have to rush Sam Rowe after injury back in this week to help out down back and in the ruck.

Dont see them dropping Dow, Charlie or Ed....

Really hope we win.
That's all I've got...it's doing my head in. :-\

They have a lot of injuries, Stevens who has been a monkey player for us for years isnt there and they dont have a recognized ruckman.
Things are so bad they will probably have to rush Sam Rowe after injury back in this week to help out down back and in the ruck.

Dont see them dropping Dow, Charlie or Ed....

I thought it couldn't get any lower than after the GC game, then came the stinker v Norf, then a stinkier one v GWS. We seem to find ways to outdo previous stinkiness. We must arrest this trend. We must also arrest the trend of running players into form. We need to keep Billings and Gresham on a tight chain.
As for Charles, he is dead set taking the piss ATM. Word on the street a while back was that he was off the rails which I laughed off. I am now starting to wonder.
Doc and Crippa kicked the coaches out of the room Monday morning and had stern words with the players. I hope they hit them right between the eyes because Sundays effort was unjustifiable, the excuses are over. I hope they had the hard conversations about careers being on the line and the coaches neck being on the block. If it's a case that they want him gone (despicable if true), keep dishing up that embarrassing tripe and its only a matter of time. I was confident at the start of the year, I really was. All of a sudden, I have this feeling its going to get a whole lot worse. Hope to God I'm wrong but...

I thought it couldn't get any lower than after the GC game, then came the stinker v Norf, then a stinkier one v GWS. We seem to find ways to outdo previous stinkiness. We must arrest this trend. We must also arrest the trend of running players into form. We need to keep Billings and Gresham on a tight chain.
As for Charles, he is dead set taking the piss ATM. Word on the street a while back was that he was off the rails which I laughed off. I am now starting to wonder.
Doc and Crippa kicked the coaches out of the room Monday morning and had stern words with the players. I hope they hit them right between the eyes because Sundays effort was unjustifiable, the excuses are over. I hope they had the hard conversations about careers being on the line and the coaches neck being on the block. If it's a case that they want him gone (despicable if true), keep dishing up that embarrassing tripe and its only a matter of time. I was confident at the start of the year, I really was. All of a sudden, I have this feeling its going to get a whole lot worse. Hope to God I'm wrong but...

On a good day....he hasn't even been ordinary yet....

Revised Out
Murphy
O’Brien
Macreadie
Casboult
Dow

In
Lang
Cuningham
Plowman
Simpson
Kennedy

I'll be disgusted if Charlie Curnow gets a game...

Revised Out
Murphy
O’Brien
Macreadie
Casboult
Dow

In
Lang
Cuningham
Plowman
Simpson
Kennedy

Beginning to feel like shuffling deck chairs.

Revised Out
Murphy
O’Brien
Macreadie
Casboult
Dow

In
Lang
Cuningham
Plowman
Simpson
Kennedy

I'm hearing Cuningham unlikely to be ready for this week, Plowman 50-50. I've also heard from VFL watchers that Kennedy hasn't been that impressive for the NB's, although he has been in the best a few times? He also hasn't played for 2 weeks (will be 3 weeks by the time we play on Sunday) so not sure if that affects whether they would bring him? straight in.

I'm hearing Cuningham unlikely to be ready for this week, Plowman 50-50. I've also heard from VFL watchers that Kennedy hasn't been that impressive for the NB's, although he has been in the best a few times? He also hasn't played for 2 weeks (will be 3 weeks by the time we play on Sunday) so not sure if that affects whether they would bring him? straight in.

Kennedy is still a better option than LOB at the moment and adds a bigger body to our undersized midfield rotations.

Those ins/outs will do....best of a bad bunch though. I'd be still tempted to play Goddard. Marchbank offers absolutely nothing as a physical key defender. I'd happily drop Charlie and play Casboult forward and backup ruckman and bring Goddard in down back to play on Bruce and have Weitering on Membrey.

Still not sold on Lang being anything other than a depth player and right now we haven't got any depth so he probably gets a gig.

None of O'Brien or Macreadie and even Down should be back in the team until they've shown something in the VFL, including some decent foot skills.

I fear Richo and Ratten will disassemble our MC like a Lego building under attack from a baseball bat wielding leotard clad has-been radio host! :o

Gotta select the most senior side possible and play only form players (remember, BB, your pledge that we'd only play form blokes?).

Charlie is out of form and does not deserve a game.

However...

After the 'home truths' session the players have run you'd think we'll come out breathing fire and some mongrel. We know our best is good enough to wipe the floor with the Aints. (Does worry me when these player run home truths sessions are at least not facilitated by a suitably qualified and experienced person.... and that it seems the players MAY have lost confidence in their coaches, with their non invitation!!!)

Gotta select the most senior side possible and play only form players (remember, BB, your pledge that we'd only play form blokes?).

Charlie is out of form and does not deserve a game.

However...

After the 'home truths' session the players have run you'd think we'll come out breathing fire and some mongrel. We know our best is good enough to wipe the floor with the Aints. (Does worry me when these player run home truths sessions are at least not facilitated by a suitably qualified and experienced person.... and that it seems the players MAY have lost confidence in their coaches, with their non invitation!!!)

I think that Lang and Fasolo have to play this week, and the Energiser Bunny (Polson) deserves another crack.

As for Charlie, I’m not convinced that his form is all that bad.  He is getting the defensive attention that a key forward has to put up with and we’re still struggling with a forward structure that provides mutual support and exploits over emphasis on one or two players.  I had hoped that Teague would have this sorted but we’ve got a way to go and getting hammered in the midfield doesn’t help.

I have a different take on the players’ meeting.  Firstly, our leaders have had the best available leadership training and facilitating a meeting should be second nature.  Secondly, it was important for the playing group to take ownership of the poor performance against GWS.  Thirdly, you have to wonder whether the meeting was cooked up by Bolton, Cripps and Docherty  :-\

The secrecy of it all would bother me ... and it should scare others into some form of action.

I think that Lang and Fasolo have to play this week, and the Energiser Bunny (Polson) deserves another crack.

I'm not too overjoyed at the VFL report, they said they used Lang inside for 30 possessions with 8 or 10 clearances.

If that's Lang's idea of inside, it's closer to Tutt than Cripps, he basically played the sweeper role like SPS does! That's not "inside" it's "in the vicinity!"

Based on what I saw if they put Lang into the midfield instead of say Dow or Setterfield the load will further increase on Cripps!

As for Charlie, I’m not convinced that his form is all that bad.  He is getting the defensive attention that a key forward has to put up with and we’re still struggling with a forward structure that provides mutual support and exploits over emphasis on one or two players.  I had hoped that Teague would have this sorted but we’ve got a way to go and getting hammered in the midfield doesn’t help.

So, why don't we chuck Curnow the younger into the midfield ?  We have the marking forward to replace him & his aerobic capacity is supposedly nearly as good as his brothers.  I for one, would love to see what his reaction would be to being given a go there.

Mal.

So, why don't we chuck Curnow the younger into the midfield ?  We have the marking forward to replace him & his aerobic capacity is supposedly nearly as good as his brothers.  I for one, would love to see what his reaction would be to being given a go there.

Mal.

Simply because he doesn’t have the awareness and decision making to play in the midfield.

Charlie’s strengths are his marking and ability to drive the ball deep inside the forward 50 before the defenders are set.  Those strengths are best deployed when he plays as high half forward.

If he is nullified by the best defender, McGovern and McKay should be dominating their opponents and forcing a change in match ups.  That’s the frustrating thing for me; we’re allowing the opposition defenders to dictate the terms rather than making them try to counter our strengths.

Out Murphy LOB
In Kerr Simmo Cunners Plowman Kennedy Fas
Prince Charles survives, must have pictures of Bolts in the nude.

Out Murphy LOB
In Kerr Simmo Cunners Plowman Kennedy Fas
Prince Charles survives, must have pictures of Bolts in the nude.

With Charlie in I think you can count Kerr out unless we have injuries.....Simpson, Cuningham Plowman and Kennedy would be my tips as the ins.

With Charlie in I think you can count Kerr out unless we have injuries.....Simpson, Cuningham Plowman and Kennedy would be my tips as the ins.

Simmos in the 18.

Bench was Kerr, Setterfield, Plowman, Cunningham, Kennedy, Fasolo and Stocker. Macreadie.

Only way Kerr will play is if Charlie plays midfield.

CARLTON
B: Kade Simpson, Jacob Weitering, Nic Newman
HB: Caleb Marchbank, Levi Casboult, Dale Thomas
C: Sam Walsh, Patrick Cripps, Sam Petrevski-Seton
HF: Charlie Curnow, Mitch McGovern, Ed Curnow
F: Michael Gibbons, Harry McKay, Jack Silvagni
R: Matthew Kreuzer, Paddy Dow, Zac Fisher
Int: Harrison Macreadie, Patrick Kerr, Will Setterfield, Alex Fasolo, Liam Stocker, Lachie Plowman, Matthew Kennedy, David Cuningham (Four to be omitted)

IN: Kade Simpson, Patrick Kerr, Alex Fasolo, Lachie Plowman, Matthew Kennedy, David Cuningham

OUT: Marc Murphy (Injured), Lochie O'Brien (Omitted)

If PLowman is truly fit, then he should play. Same with Cuningham: he has been really good this year when he has been fit. Kennedy can't be far away either.
i don't think Kerr will play unless one of out key forwards misses. Fasolo appears closer to a game, but I am yet to be convinced. 2 goals does not a summer make!

ST KILDA
B: Daniel McKenzie, Nathan Brown, Shane Savage
HB: Callum Wilkie, Josh Battle, Jonathon Marsh
C: Ed Phillips, Sebastian Ross, Jack Newnes
HF: Jack Billings, Josh Bruce, Robbie Young
F: Dean Kent, Tim Membrey, Jade Gresham
R: Rowan Marshall, Jack Steele, Jack Sinclair
Int: Nick Coffield, Luke Dunstan, Blake Acres, Hunter Clark, Billy Longer, Ben Long, Brandon White, Matthew Parker (Four to be omitted)

IN: Nick Coffield, Hunter Clark, Billy Longer, Ben Long, Brandon White
OUT: Ben Paton (Managed)

Rowan Marshall is their ruckman? That boggles the imagination, good kid that he is. Longer will probably take on Kreuzer, and he has a reasonable record on him. :(
Jack Steven usually kills us: I will not miss him!

CARLTON
B: Kade Simpson, Jacob Weitering, Nic Newman
HB: Caleb Marchbank, Levi Casboult, Dale Thomas
C: Sam Walsh, Patrick Cripps, Sam Petrevski-Seton
HF: Charlie Curnow, Mitch McGovern, Ed Curnow
F: Michael Gibbons, Harry McKay, Jack Silvagni
R: Matthew Kreuzer, Paddy Dow, Zac Fisher
Int: Harrison Macreadie, Patrick Kerr, Will Setterfield, Alex Fasolo, Liam Stocker, Lachie Plowman, Matthew Kennedy, David Cuningham (Four to be omitted)

IN: Kade Simpson, Patrick Kerr, Alex Fasolo, Lachie Plowman, Matthew Kennedy, David Cuningham

OUT: Marc Murphy (Injured), Lochie O'Brien (Omitted)

If PLowman is truly fit, then he should play. Same with Cuningham: he has been really good this year when he has been fit. Kennedy can't be far away either.
i don't think Kerr will play unless one of out key forwards misses. Fasolo appears closer to a game, but I am yet to be convinced. 2 goals does not a summer make!

ST KILDA
B: Daniel McKenzie, Nathan Brown, Shane Savage
HB: Callum Wilkie, Josh Battle, Jonathon Marsh
C: Ed Phillips, Sebastian Ross, Jack Newnes
HF: Jack Billings, Josh Bruce, Robbie Young
F: Dean Kent, Tim Membrey, Jade Gresham
R: Rowan Marshall, Jack Steele, Jack Sinclair
Int: Nick Coffield, Luke Dunstan, Blake Acres, Hunter Clark, Billy Longer, Ben Long, Brandon White, Matthew Parker (Four to be omitted)

IN: Nick Coffield, Hunter Clark, Billy Longer, Ben Long, Brandon White
OUT: Ben Paton (Managed)

Rowan Marshall is their ruckman? That boggles the imagination, good kid that he is. Longer will probably take on Kreuzer, and he has a reasonable record on him. :(
Jack Steven usually kills us: I will not miss him!

Thats ok, Billings is due for a big bag. Carlton, come on down.

3 tall defenders.   3 tall forwards.    Who does Levi play on?   Not all sides have a lumbering Ben Reid.  

3 tall defenders.   3 tall forwards.    Who does Levi play on?   Not all sides have a lumbering Ben Reid.

Said the same thing to all the Levi boosters after his second coming against the pies.

Its a one-off....or at least a party trick used very sparingly.

We need to start picking sides to play on the opposition. If there is 1 criticism i have of our current coaching group/match committee its that they lose too many games at the selection table.

3 tall defenders.   3 tall forwards.    Who does Levi play on?   Not all sides have a lumbering Ben Reid.

If they play Longer then Marshall will play forward...the latter troubled us when I last saw them play, big awkward kid who takes a good mark....so I would expect Casboult to take him...
Weitering on Bruce, Marchbank on Membrey.

Billings, Gresham, Young and Parker might cause us problems....Young is known as Lightning because of his speed and Parker is entertainment Liam Ryan style..

Blues by 5 goals....Cripps 40 plus possies

Not sure Longer plays.    Hunter had 30 plus and Long named BOG.    One of them will come in for mine.

Not sure Longer plays.    Hunter had 30 plus and Long named BOG.    One of them will come in for mine.

Saints are very small and Longer has played well on Kreuzer before thats my reasoning....reckon Hunter Clark will play.
Steele will get Cripps....had 33 possies/10 tackles while playing on Cripps last time.

Samo might be in doubt.

He only had 57% game time last week.

Is anyone else going to tomorrow Morning’s open Training session at Ikon Park? I got the green light from the Club to bring my young ones along and they cannot wait. We’ll make a day of it. V/line train, breakfast in the city and then catch the tram down. Sadly the Kids are losing interest in the Blues, so a trip to Ikon Park to get to hold the Premiership Cup, get a free sausage and watching the boys practice and maybe get a few pics with them should help somewhat.

Please don’t let my Kids down Blue boys and get them the Win they need to keep the faith. The Win we all need.

I have to say that this Forum is getting a bit too much like BigFooty, which is not where we want to end up. It’s been mentioned by others already.A Win should help steady the ship and help settle everyone’s emotions.

Samo might be in doubt.

He only had 57% game time last week.

I have absolutely no idea about the reliability of the information they post, but the Supercoach game program had him "Test-Hamstring" earlier in the day.
No mention of it in the injuries list on the club website.

Is anyone else going to tomorrow Morning’s open Training session at Ikon Park? I got the green light from the Club to bring my young ones along and they cannot wait. We’ll make a day of it. V/line train, breakfast in the city and then catch the tram down. Sadly the Kids are losing interest in the Blues, so a trip to Ikon Park to get to hold the Premiership Cup, get a free sausage and watching the boys practice and maybe get a few pics with them should help somewhat.

Please don’t let my Kids down Blue boys and get them the Win they need to keep the faith. The Win we all need.

I have to say that this Forum is getting a bit too much like BigFooty, which is not where we want to end up. It’s been mentioned by others already.A Win should help steady the ship and help settle everyone’s emotions.

I think that posters are generally showing remarkable patience and restraint under the circumstances.  However, we do desperately need a win to provide reward for effort ... and I’m not talking about the players  :)

I hope you and your young ones have a great morning at training.  Look after your hammies  ;)

I reckon we'll respond, play a game similar to the one against the Dogs then turn around and an smack Essendon the week after because, well, it's something we enjoy doing. So i'm thinking we'll be 6 wins from 43...lol.

After that I bet we crash again and not recover in a hurry.

I'm hoping the player response to a bad, pathetic loss will last more than a week. We keep showing our capabilities but it rarely does more than pop it's head out occasionally. To me, the Dogs game, once the performance happened, was the absolute gold standard as we showed what we are really capable of when we put in. Hence why this year has been so disappointing.

I have absolutely no idea about the reliability of the information they post, but the Supercoach game program had him "Test-Hamstring" earlier in the day.
No mention of it in the injuries list on the club website.

2 wins coming up next two weeks. One week for the response, one week because it's Essendon.

Bolton just said Kennedy is playing Sunday.

I have absolutely no idea about the reliability of the information they post, but the Supercoach game program had him "Test-Hamstring" earlier in the day.
No mention of it in the injuries list on the club website.

I didn't sight him in the second half last week although there were plenty who went missing.

Bolton just said Kennedy is playing Sunday.

Bloody fantastic. A because we need a big body in there who has proven can play and b, because with a rumour that Bolts is stubborn, it means change in personnel is possible.

Bolton just said Kennedy is playing Sunday.

Good. I've been waiting to see him in action.

I have only just seen the team selections for this weekend and to be brutally honest, I'm starting to get very worried about the thought processes within the Match Committee.

We get thumped by 93-points in an insipid & woeful manner yet there are only two changes to the team ??

Furthermore, Charlie Curnow has been coasting all year whilst Pat Kerr, who I don't think will make the grade, kicks six in the seconds last week but cannot crack it for a senior game. What happened to rewarding performance and punishing non efforts ??

If your place in the team isn't under pressure following the mother of all shellackings then will it ever be ??

Our midfield was non-existent last week with a bevy of passengers whilst Lang, who is AFL ready body-wise had 28 touches yet isn't selected.

Our young players were outbodied & bullied by the bigger GWS guys but Kennedy still plays in the seconds.

FMD, what the hell is going on here ??

We are our own worst enemies !!

Just checked the club website and the team selections have been altered :

In: Simpson, Cuningham, Fasolo, Kennedy, Kerr, Plowman
Out: Murphy (ribs), O'Brien

Thank god some sense has prevailed but with only two players named as out I'm still sceptical about what may happen. 

Just checked the club website and the team selections have been altered :

In: Simpson, Cuningham, Fasolo, Kennedy, Kerr, Plowman
Out: Murphy (ribs), O'Brien

Thank god some sense has prevailed but with only two players named as out I'm still sceptical about what may happen.

I think with those selections and what we’ve heard to date, that the Team will throw the kitchen sink at the Saints come Sunday. There’s personal pride at stake. The real questions are, will we Win and how will the players sustain that effort over the coming weeks, no matter the outcomes of each game. It’ll either make or break a few people at the Club.

Bolton just said Kennedy is playing Sunday.

So we will see whether the MC have been right or wrong with his non selection thus far. If he is another passenger, he can stay in the NBs as far as I'm concerned. He is 22 and been in the AFL system long enough, time to deliver (and not with Polson or LOB type stats)

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2019-05-24/bolton-kennedy-to-get-his-opportunity?fbclid=IwAR1NCx2sJFLtutMJeJSJIk1fUfnESTc3rEAescyZw8EaxnU-yekDlcGQtEQ

It'll be very interesting to see our midfield tactics now, in my opinion with a more experienced starting midfield this is a line in the sand game for midfield coach Barker!

btw., I don't think the Aints are as bad as people make out, and Marvel suits them!

There is a definite 'need for speed' so, if fit, Cuningham is a cert, Kennedy is a lock, Stoker deserves another go and Plowman as the rotating backman.  Emergencies Fasolo, Kerr and Setterfield   Macreadie in the twos.

Pure speculation.

There is a definite 'need for speed' so, if fit, Cuningham is a cert, Kennedy is a lock, Stoker deserves another go and Plowman as the rotating backman.  Emergencies Fasolo, Kerr and Setterfield   Macreadie in the twos.

Pure speculation.

I think we should pick Kerr.
Casboult should have a spell, until his physicality is at AFL level

I'd rather leave Casboult in as backup ruckman rather than pull McKay away from the forward line as he's in great form down there. Charlie can have a run in the twos and give Kerr a chance...if Kerr's not up to it then he's another one to cull at year-end. But if we're picking players purely on form (as it should be) then Charlie isn't in the best 22 right at the minute.

I think we should pick Kerr.
Casboult should have a spell, until his physicality is at AFL level

Generally speaking the squad is not reduced from the 18,  only those named on the interchange.

Generally speaking the squad is not reduced from the 18,  only those named on the interchange.

Yes unfortunately

There is a definite 'need for speed' so, if fit, Cuningham is a cert, Kennedy is a lock, Stoker deserves another go and Plowman as the rotating backman.  Emergencies Fasolo, Kerr and Setterfield   Macreadie in the twos.

Pure speculation.

BINGO!!! Picked it!!   And Billy Longer didn't make the cut for the other mob.

I didn't take Fasolo being named seriously, anyone who watched the VFL thought that must be a joke!

INS: Simpson, Kennedy, Plowman, Cunningham
OUTS: Setterfield, Murphy, O'Brien and Macreadie

The defence will look a bit better but hopefully Jones is back ASAP too. Cunningham adds a bit of speed and has been pretty sharp around the goals in the games he's played.

INS: Simpson, Kennedy, Plowman, Cunningham
OUTS: Setterfield, Murphy, O'Brien and Macreadie

The defence will look a bit better but hopefully Jones is back ASAP too. Cunningham adds a bit of speed and has been pretty sharp around the goals in the games he's played.

Bit surprised we outed Setterfield, ahead of Ed or Gibbons. I apprecaite we cannot run with Cripps, Setterfield and Kennedy in the midfield but Setterfield is a useful forward.

Given SPS limited game time I won't be surprised to hear of a late change with SPS out and Setterfield in.

Bit surprised we outed Setterfield, ahead of Ed or Gibbons. I apprecaite we cannot run with Cripps, Setterfield and Kennedy in the midfield but Setterfield is a useful forward.

Given SPS limited game time I won't be surprised to hear of a late change with SPS out and Setterfield in.

I'd have kept Setterfield ahead of Plowman.

I reckon we'll respond, play a game similar to the one against the Dogs then turn around and an smack Essendon the week after because, well, it's something we enjoy doing. So i'm thinking we'll be 6 wins from 43...lol.

It already is 6 wins from 43.

THe magical numbers you throw around each week are chosen because the 2 weeks before that, were wins.....but that hurts the argument so they are conveniently left out.

If we do win the next 2, then it'd be 8 wins from 45. ;)

All those saying setterfield should not be dropped did they miss the game last week.

The team was really bad but he was putrid.

Disposal is better in under 12s.

This guy has played a handful of poor - average games to start his career, However I’m not writing him off rather observing that his form has not been anywhere near enough to suggest he should have held his spot.

Hope he rips it up for a month in the 2s and can come back when he forces his way back....needs to work hard on disposal while in the seconds.

I'd have kept Setterfield ahead of Plowman.

I think they might try Stocker in a different role, leaving Plowman to rotate through the backline. Stocker might get a run on the ball and a bit of time up forward to add defensive pressure, leaving Ed Curnow to do a shutdown role.

All those saying setterfield should not be dropped did they miss the game last week.

The team was really bad but he was putrid.

Disposal is better in under 12s.

This guy has played a handful of poor - average games to start his career, However I’m not writing him off rather observing that his form has not been anywhere near enough to suggest he should have held his spot.

Hope he rips it up for a month in the 2s and can come back when he forces his way back....needs to work hard on disposal while in the seconds.

Who wasn’t putrid last week?

But yes, Setters needs some time in the VFL - and in the weights room bulking up.

It already is 6 wins from 43.

THe magical numbers you throw around each week are chosen because the 2 weeks before that, were wins.....but that hurts the argument so they are conveniently left out.

If we do win the next 2, then it'd be 8 wins from 45. ;)

We've 1424 from out last 2500. What's your point

Right now it's 4 from from the last 41. You can go 3 from 31, 11 of those losses by 50pts or more, 1 in 2, if your want if you want to take it from the start on last year, or even 1 from 12. Whatever it is, it's as bloody horrible as it gets.

I think for the coach' sake it's imperative we win. Close, honorable losses don't cut it against St.Kilda. Not 4th year into a rebuild, especially when you are already 1-8.

I think they might try Stocker in a different role, leaving Plowman to rotate through the backline. Stocker might get a run on the ball and a bit of time up forward to add defensive pressure, leaving Ed Curnow to do a shutdown role.

Just felt our backline is tall enough. If you're too tall one invariably struggles as he don't know his role. Happened to Weitering last year. People bagged the f out of him last year. get's a proper role that suits and he's a different player. Could be part of Charlie's issues this year too. Could be a lack of continuity too with injuries.  Dunno.

We've 1424 from out last 2500. What's your point

Right now it's 4 from from the last 41. You can go 3 from 31, 11 of those losses by 50pts or more, 1 in 2, if your want if you want to take it from the start on last year, or even 1 from 12. Whatever it is, it's as bloody horrible as it gets.

I think for the coach' sake it's imperative we win. Close, honorable losses don't cut it against St.Kilda. Not 4th year into a rebuild, especially when you are already 1-8.

Just saying. You wanted 6 in 43, i gave it to you.

I'd have kept Setterfield ahead of Plowman.

Agree, Plow has been terrible this year. Need Jonesy back ASAP, never thought I'd say that but he was in AA form before the KO.

It already is 6 wins from 43.

THe magical numbers you throw around each week are chosen because the 2 weeks before that, were wins.....but that hurts the argument so they are conveniently left out.

If we do win the next 2, then it'd be 8 wins from 45. ;)

WOW! Now that's impressive. I'll be getting finals tickets tomorrow!

Holy mackerel. When we celebrate and are grateful for the potential of 8 from 45... sheesh, how far have we fallen. There'll be dancing in the streets when we win more than 4 games in a season. :( :(

WOW! Now that's impressive. I'll be getting finals tickets tomorrow!

Holy mackerel. When we celebrate and are grateful for the potential of 8 from 45... sheesh, how far have we fallen. There'll be dancing in the streets when we win more than 4 games in a season. :( :(

If you've read any of my posts recently you'd be aware that i've been mocking Jim for repeatedly using those numbers...in every post.

You should also be aware that i don't think the sheer win/losses stat is a fair indicator on where we are now, compared to years prior.

If you've read any of my posts recently you'd be aware that i've been mocking Jim for repeatedly using those numbers...in every post.

You should also be aware that i don't think the sheer win/losses stat is a fair indicator on where we are now, compared to years prior.

If you re read those figures before you posted them, you wouldn’t bother
Seriously dumb argument

If you re read those figures before you posted them, you wouldn’t bother
Seriously dumb argument

Point is, it could be 0 from 45 and it doesn't change my opinion.

Point is, it could be 0 from 45 and it doesn't change my opinion.

I know

It reminds of the election

All our policies are fine and Bill is wonderful

Point is, it could be 0 from 45 and it doesn't change my opinion.

Agree. Nobody is saying the W/L is great. Clearly it's lousy. The salient questions are whether things could realistically be any different given the path we've taken, and whether changing the coach, now or at any point in the recent past, would make a difference. I say no. One needs to also bear in mind that changing an entire culture, and an entire club, is a massive task, and takes time. If you believe the hype, we are now doing things very differently from the past. Folks like to zero in on the coach as the cause of our poor performances, but there could be many other factors e.g discord between players, maybe involving WAGS, drugs etc. The possibilities are endless.

I think people need to move away from the "great men of history" theory. It's way more complex than one man. No messiah in the last 20 years has made much difference.

The question in my mind is what is the club's tolerance for continuing to lose? Eventually, and I think end of season at the latest, that tolerance will be exhausted. That will drive the club's actions above anything else in a highly competitive environment such as the AFL.

The question in my mind is what is the club's tolerance for continuing to lose? Eventually, and I think end of season at the latest, that tolerance will be exhausted. That will drive the club's actions above anything else in a highly competitive environment such as the AFL.

If changing the coach meant a permanent move up the ladder, rather than a honeymoon, dead cat bounce, I'd agree. I'm just not sure that it will.

I know

It reminds of the election

All our policies are fine and Bill is wonderful

Then you end up with Trump. People don't always make good decisions, and their motives are not always rational, clear or well thought out.

If changing the coach meant a permanent move up the ladder, rather than a honeymoon, dead cat bounce, I'd agree. I'm just not sure that it will.

Paul, stopping the pain will become the main and immediate driver. Moving on from that comes next. Not saying it will necessarily lead to success but change will be made on that basis.

Whilst I am extremely disappointed with the results of the last couple of weeks, I do hope we don't just come out 'breathing fire' as I think from this young group that will result in a possible win this week and stinker the next.

We must use the events as a watershed moment where the players take collective responsibility and improve across the ground. I don't think this is Bolton.

The player driven extra skills (Cripps and Dow), while encouraging to read, how many others are doing it? This for mine is the mark that will show our real improvement. There are not too many on our list that should be satisfied with their skill levels - the easy turnovers and poor execution are trained and practised, and if we want to really improve as a group this simply has to happen and be driven by the players.

The intent and pressure around the ball, that is a player decision, how hard do you run, how hard do you commit? That is the players making the decision, all the lovely game plans in the world fall apart if you cannot execute due to the effort.

So by all means, breath fire, but I want to see a consistent lift in intensity across the ground, and over the next couple of weeks an understanding of what it takes to compete at AFL level. It is a bit like a room full of new University graduates - everyone has a degree, so what sets you apart? Our young AFL 'champions' could be anything or not much, they actually make the decision.

Paul, stopping the pain will become the main and immediate driver. Moving on from that comes next. Not saying it will necessarily lead to success but change will be made on that basis.

To me, this sounds like crisis management. No actual plan going forward, just do what we've always done because we can't work through things properly. Let's sack the coach to relieve the pressure.

To me, this sounds like crisis management. No actual plan going forward, just do what we've always done because we can't work through things properly. Let's sack the coach to relieve the pressure.

Don't we have a crisis?

Don't we have a crisis?

Well, that depends on who you ask. I've said many times I expected us to be bottom 2 this year, not because of any inherent fault with Bolton or the plan, but it's just the simple reality of where our club and list is at. Clearly that makes me as popular as a dose of the clap, but it is what it is.

It is where it shouldn't be. 

Paul, stopping the pain will become the main and immediate driver. Moving on from that comes next. Not saying it will necessarily lead to success but change will be made on that basis.

Dont agree.

Stopping the pain is a temporary measure that distorts your end goal.

How would that attitude go down in preseason training? Bust your gut to get fitter....but that hurts so let's just stop training to stop the pain?

Pain can be good for you. It's an almighty motivator.
You've gotta lose one to win one.
Why? The pain of losing a granny motivates you to the next level.

Dont agree.

Stopping the pain is a temporary measure that distorts your end goal.

How would that attitude go down in preseason training? Bust your gut to get fitter....but that hurts so let's just stop training to stop the pain?

Pain can be good for you. It's an almighty motivator.
You've gotta lose one to win one.
Why? The pain of losing a granny motivates you to the next level.

But that is what will drive the club's actions when tolerance runs out. I don't know how club management really feels but at the current rate significant improvement seems a long way off.

PS. To paraphrase Monty Python " Losing a granny - luxury!"

Well, that depends on who you ask. I've said many times I expected us to be bottom 2 this year, not because of any inherent fault with Bolton or the plan, but it's just the simple reality of where our club and list is at. Clearly that makes me as popular as a dose of the clap, but it is what it is.

I think a bit of concern comes from the fact that while you thought we would be bottom 2 Paul, the messages from the club indicate that they certainly didn't (Bolton, Judd comments, trading of the pick last year for Stocker. He may turn out to be a very good player but probably not Pick 1 or 2).

If a poster on a forum is closer to the mark than the football department, that kind of indicates that we're not totally on top of the situation or at the very least we've slipped off the expected pace.

Well, that depends on who you ask. I've said many times I expected us to be bottom 2 this year, not because of any inherent fault with Bolton or the plan, but it's just the simple reality of where our club and list is at. Clearly that makes me as popular as a dose of the clap, but it is what it is.

Wow, that makes you a genius, clairvoyant or deeply pessimistic because next to no-one in the footy world expected a list as good as ours to struggle to win a game this year... especially our club! But I don't recall you predicting this at the beginning of the year...

I think a bit of concern comes from the fact that while you thought we would be bottom 2 Paul, the messages from the club indicate that they certainly didn't (Bolton, Judd comments, trading of the pick last year for Stocker. He may turn out to be a very good player but probably not Pick 1 or 2).

If a poster on a forum is closer to the mark than the football department, that kind of indicates that we're not totally on top of the situation or at the very least we've slipped off the expected pace.

The club has never said, not even in the Green Shoots days of yore, that they expected to lose games, or weren't worried if they lost. No club ever says it, and no club ever will, irrespective of what they may think behind the scenes. Neither Judd, nor Bolton, or anyone else will ever say "we expect to finish bottom 2." I don't know what their internal expectations were.

The club has never said, not even in the Green Shoots days of yore, that they expected to lose games, or weren't worried if they lost. No club ever says it, and no club ever will, irrespective of what they may think behind the scenes. Neither Judd, nor Bolton, or anyone else will ever say "we expect to finish bottom 2." I don't know what their internal expectations were.

In the first two years BB and others from the club constantly said that 'we will not be defined by Ws and Ls'... that they had internal markers, goals, KPIs that were set and often reached - wins within the growth, if you like.

The club has publicly stated, numerous times from different people, that winning is the focus this year and that there is an expectation to win many, many more games than last year. Juddy repeated it again on FC on Monday night. The CFC is in the winning business.

I wonder if tomorrow's game is going to be -- jokingly -- referred to as the Brad Scott cup... loser gets him  ;) ;D ;D

I wonder if tomorrow's game is going to be -- jokingly -- referred to as the Brad Scott cup... loser gets him  ;) ;D ;D

Now that's something to play for!  :D

In the first two years BB and others from the club constantly said that 'we will not be defined by Ws and Ls'... that they had internal markers, goals, KPIs that were set and often reached - wins within the growth, if you like.

The club has publicly stated, numerous times from different people, that winning is the focus this year and that there is an expectation to win many, many more games than last year. Juddy repeated it again on FC on Monday night. The CFC is in the winning business.

So assuming that is the case, and wins are not meeting internal expectations, what is the better option :
- sack the coach, and figure out the rest later, or
- conduct a proper audit / review, identify the problems, fix what can be fixed and throw out the rest ?

Now that's something to play for!  :D

 :)) :)) :)) :)) an extra incentive... 'come on boys, big win today and we send Brad to the Aints...'

So assuming that is the case, and wins are not meeting internal expectations, what is the better option :
- sack the coach, and figure out the rest later, or
- conduct a proper audit / review, identify the problems, fix what can be fixed and throw out the rest ?

Well, now I don't think that 'sack the coach' is logically followed by 'figure out the rest later...' You can be very sure that if the club is thinking of replacing BB that they've assessed all options and ramifications beyond that. And if they've given him a few weeks to turn the ship around they would still have assessed options should he fail.

Hopefully, all this is, as I've said before, academic because we 'click' and start winning games and moving up the ladder.

Well, now I don't think that 'sack the coach' is logically followed by 'figure out the rest later...' You can be very sure that if the club is thinking of replacing BB that they've assessed all options and ramifications beyond that. And if they've given him a few weeks to turn the ship around they would still have assessed options should he fail.

Hopefully, all this is, as I've said before, academic because we 'click' and start winning games and moving up the ladder.

Yep. If the club were really professional their original rebuild plan would even have included in its risk management section what path would be taken should BB not be meeting expectations within a given time frame. After all there was a level of risk present in terms of BB being an untried senior coach at that time?

Anyway, as you say Baggers, "Carn Blues on Sunday" - let's get up for a real confidence boosting and comfortable win.

I think a bit of concern comes from the fact that while you thought we would be bottom 2 Paul, the messages from the club indicate that they certainly didn't (Bolton, Judd comments, trading of the pick last year for Stocker. He may turn out to be a very good player but probably not Pick 1 or 2).

If a poster on a forum is closer to the mark than the football department, that kind of indicates that we're not totally on top of the situation or at the very least we've slipped off the expected pace.

Cmon Lods, thats a bit naive.

Which footy club has ever come out and said we will be bottom 2 this year?

Bolton has always said he won't put a ceiling on expectations because anything is possible. For him, or anyone within the club, to say otherwise would be....
a) Opposite of what they've said previously.
b) Cause a division within the club due to mixed messages
c) be a red flag to any potential players/free agents coming in
d) be a red flag to any players potentially looking at their options elsewhere.

Cmon Lods, thats a bit naive.

Which footy club has ever come out and said we will be bottom 2 this year?

Bolton has always said he won't put a ceiling on expectations because anything is possible. For him, or anyone within the club, to say otherwise would be....
a) Opposite of what they've said previously.
b) Cause a division within the club due to mixed messages
c) be a red flag to any potential players/free agents coming in
d) be a red flag to any players potentially looking at their options elsewhere.

Bolton has always said he won't put a ceiling on expectations because anything is possible..true...That just an easy get out clause for Bolton, how many years can you pull that for, try doing that in business or a real job and see how long you last....
We dont want the impossible we would be happy with average Joe results, good Managers under promise and over deliver...set a low target of 6 wins, whats he scared of?

Cmon Lods, thats a bit naive.

Which footy club has ever come out and said we will be bottom 2 this year?

Bolton has always said he won't put a ceiling on expectations because anything is possible. For him, or anyone within the club, to say otherwise would be....
a) Opposite of what they've said previously.
b) Cause a division within the club due to mixed messages
c) be a red flag to any potential players/free agents coming in
d) be a red flag to any players potentially looking at their options elsewhere.

Come on kruds. That's a bit naive.
They would never have expected to be 1 and 8. They would not have expected to be sitting last at this stage .

'

CARLTON
B: Kade Simpson, Jacob Weitering, Nic Newman
HB: Caleb Marchbank, Levi Casboult, Dale Thomas
C: Sam Walsh, Patrick Cripps, Sam Petrevski-Seton
HF: Charlie Curnow, Mitch McGovern, Ed Curnow
F: Michael Gibbons, Harry McKay, Jack Silvagni
R: Matthew Kreuzer, Paddy Dow, Zac Fisher
Int: Lachie Plowman, David Cuningham, Liam Stocker, Matthew Kennedy

EMG: Will Setterfield, Harrison Macreadie, Alex Fasolo, Patrick Kerr

IN: Kade Simpson, Lachie Plowman, David Cuningham, Matthew Kennedy

OUT: Marc Murphy (Injured), Harrison Macreadie (Omitted), Lochie O'Brien (Omitted), Will Setterfield (Omitted)

Setters and Macreadie need to find form in the VFL. Both have had long layoffs and need the workouts.

ST KILDA
B: Daniel McKenzie, Nathan Brown, Shane Savage
HB: Callum Wilkie, Josh Battle, Jonathon Marsh
C: Ed Phillips, Sebastian Ross, Jack Newnes
HF: Jack Billings, Josh Bruce, Robbie Young
F: Dean Kent, Tim Membrey, Jade Gresham
R: Rowan Marshall, Jack Steele, Jack Sinclair
Int: Luke Dunstan, Blake Acres, Ben Long, Matthew Parker

EMG: Nick Coffield, Hunter Clark, Billy Longer, Brandon White

IN: Ben Long

OUT: Ben Paton (Managed)

I am amazed that St Kilda are not playing Longer against Kreuzer.  But what do I know?

The club has never said, not even in the Green Shoots days of yore, that they expected to lose games, or weren't worried if they lost. No club ever says it, and no club ever will, irrespective of what they may think behind the scenes. Neither Judd, nor Bolton, or anyone else will ever say "we expect to finish bottom 2." I don't know what their internal expectations were.

They said the expectation, when they swapped picks with Adelaide, was that they would rise up the ladder. As judd said, certainly weren't expecting 1-8. Probably wasn't in their worst nightmares.

They said the expectation, when they swapped picks with Adelaide, was that they would rise up the ladder. As judd said, certainly weren't expecting 1-8. Probably wasn't in their worst nightmares.

And which club would come out and say, "yes we fully expected to be 1-8." ?

And which club would come out and say, "yes we fully expected to be 1-8." ?

It's not a matter of saying it. I can't believe they were expecting it.but you are quite entitled to believe they're deceiving the supporters. I much prefer to believe they're  being frank.

It's not a matter of saying it. I can't believe they were expecting it.but you are quite entitled to believe they're deceiving the supporters. I much prefer to believe they're  being frank.

They're not lying, but understanding of timing is needed. The Stocker pick swap was in November (22nd or 23rd?), and at the time, expecting Docherty back, and a few other things, they were probably fair dinkum wrt a rise up the ladder, Nobody could foresee that in early December Doc would miss another season. Nobody could foresee that we'd lose a couple of games by less than a kick. As Carey said, winning or losing games by less than a goal is down to luck.

And which club would come out and say, "yes we fully expected to be 1-8." ?

Full of ridiculous spin.

There is no way they expected to be 1-8 no what way you want to spin things. Don't tell us otherwise.

Must be getting harder and harder to find spin to suit your argument.

You point to spin, i'll point to the scoreboard.

They're not lying, but understanding of timing is needed. The Stocker pick swap was in November (22nd or 23rd?), and at the time, expecting Docherty back, and a few other things, they were probably fair dinkum wrt a rise up the ladder, Nobody could foresee that in early December Doc would miss another season. Nobody could foresee that we'd lose a couple of games by less than a kick. As Carey said, winning or losing games by less than a goal is down to luck.

If Judd gets on the television  and says "we weren't expecting to be 1 and 8" you have to take that at face value. He didn't have to say it. He could have answered any questions  in another manner.

They're not lying, but understanding of timing is needed. The Stocker pick swap was in November (22nd or 23rd?), and at the time, expecting Docherty back, and a few other things, they were probably fair dinkum wrt a rise up the ladder, Nobody could foresee that in early December Doc would miss another season. Nobody could foresee that we'd lose a couple of games by less than a kick. As Carey said, winning or losing games by less than a goal is down to luck.

Actually there's some creative license being applied to our thinking here.

Our pick swap with adelaide for the stocker pick meant that we anticipated that we were not going to be significantly worse off at the draft table with the bonus of getting Liam stocker last season.

It was a move done to get our next young player in the door a year ahead of time.

To win that trade we only need to finish within 14 spots on the ladder with adelaide given stocker is rated pick 6 (according to sos) last year.

Currently that's an 11 spot difference.  

It's worth remembering that this season still has life in it, and irrespective of where we finish I can't see adelaide finishing much higher than they are currently if they make finals at all.

Come on kruds. That's a bit naive.
They would never have expected to be 1 and 8. They would not have expected to be sitting last at this stage .

'

That is beside the point though Lods.

Does any club ever expect to be bottom 2?

If they do expect it, then they are probably not doing their job properly.
If they do expect it, and they say it publicly, then they are definitely not doing their job properly!

set a low target of 6 wins, whats he scared of?

This goes to what i was saying above.

Malthouse played that game and said he couldn't see where we'd lose a game. How did that work out for him?

The club is gunshy on putting out expectations because if they are not met, even with legitimate reasons as to why (ie half your list injured) the media and general public are not very understanding/forgiving and the pressure increases exponentially.

Why do players trot out the '1 week at a time' and equivalent cliches? Because if they say anything of substance, its used against them and the club. Say nothing, and you have nothing to worry about.

Actually there's some creative license being applied to our thinking here.

Our pick swap with adelaide for the stocker pick meant that we anticipated that we were not going to be significantly worse off at the draft table with the bonus of getting Liam stocker last season.

It was a move done to get our next young player in the door a year ahead of time.

To win that trade we only need to finish within 14 spots on the ladder with adelaide given stocker is rated pick 6 (according to sos) last year.

Currently that's an 11 spot difference.  

It's worth remembering that this season still has life in it, and irrespective of where we finish I can't see adelaide finishing much higher than they are currently if they make finals at all.

Crows win if they get Grundy using our pick.....

Actually there's some creative license being applied to our thinking here.

Our pick swap with adelaide for the stocker pick meant that we anticipated that we were not going to be significantly worse off at the draft table with the bonus of getting Liam stocker last season.

It was a move done to get our next young player in the door a year ahead of time.

To win that trade we only need to finish within 14 spots on the ladder with adelaide given stocker is rated pick 6 (according to sos) last year.

Currently that's an 11 spot difference.  

It's worth remembering that this season still has life in it, and irrespective of where we finish I can't see adelaide finishing much higher than they are currently if they make finals at all.

I'm sick of people bringing this swap up for all the wrong reasons. You have pointed to many of the right reasons.
I'll go a step further and add this one.

Is it possible that Stocker (rated pick 6) is better than any player in the upcoming draft?

That is pick 1 from this draft is a worse pick than Stocker.

Therefor not only did we get a better player (Stocker) than we could get this year, we got a bonus 1st round pick (Adelaide) on top of that.

Alternatively, perhaps the next draft is so relatively even that you can get an a-grade talent no matter where you pick in the first round.

Either way, looking at where our pick is vs where adelaides pick is as justification for a good/bad trade is ignoring a lot of other factors that probably carry more weight by comparison.

Crows win if they get Grundy using our pick.....

If they take grundy off Collingwood we all win.

So now stocker is pick 1 in the 2019 draft.
Ok fair enough the club obviously expected to finish bottom 2 just didn't want to  tell us.

Full of ridiculous spin.

There is no way they expected to be 1-8 no what way you want to spin things. Don't tell us otherwise.

Must be getting harder and harder to find spin to suit your argument.

You point to spin, i'll point to the scoreboard.

That arthritic, gnarled up index finger of yours must be ready to drop off with all the scoreboard pointing you do. At any rate, if you ever do take a break from looking at scoreboards, you may learn to appreciate a certain level of complexity in the way footy clubs work. It seems unlikely, but I thought I'd just put it out there.

If Judd gets on the television  and says "we weren't expecting to be 1 and 8" you have to take that at face value. He didn't have to say it. He could have answered any questions  in another manner.

He means, at some point between the preseason and 3?, 4? weeks ago, the club thought they would have more wins on the board. His comment clearly doesn't put a timeframe on it, nor does it specify a number. What were they expecting ? 9-zip ? 2-7 ? 4-5 ?

I'm sick of people bringing this swap up for all the wrong reasons. You have pointed to many of the right reasons.
I'll go a step further and add this one.

Is it possible that Stocker (rated pick 6) is better than any player in the upcoming draft?

That is pick 1 from this draft is a worse pick than Stocker.

Therefor not only did we get a better player (Stocker) than we could get this year, we got a bonus 1st round pick (Adelaide) on top of that.

Alternatively, perhaps the next draft is so relatively even that you can get an a-grade talent no matter where you pick in the first round.

Either way, looking at where our pick is vs where adelaides pick is as justification for a good/bad trade is ignoring a lot of other factors that probably carry more weight by comparison.

The experts are saying the top 2 are better than Walsh.

That is beside the point though Lods.

Does any club ever expect to be bottom 2?

If they do expect it, then they are probably not doing their job properly.
If they do expect it, and they say it publicly, then they are definitely not doing their job properly!
This goes to what i was saying above.

Malthouse played that game and said he couldn't see where we'd lose a game. How did that work out for him?

The club is gunshy on putting out expectations because if they are not met, even with legitimate reasons as to why (ie half your list injured) the media and general public are not very understanding/forgiving and the pressure increases exponentially.

Why do players trot out the '1 week at a time' and equivalent cliches? Because if they say anything of substance, its used against them and the club. Say nothing, and you have nothing to worry about.

And Ratten stated a top 4 finish for 2012, and fell on his own sword. How many other clubs out there get asked where do they expect to finish every 30 seconds ?

So now stocker is pick 1 in the 2019 draft.
Ok fair enough the club obviously expected to finish bottom 2 just didn't want to  tell us.

Extrapolation Lods. Use the grey matter.

Has jimbo hacked your account?

The experts are saying the top 2 are better than Walsh.

I always have a laugh about this kind of stuff.

Experts said Walsh is the best prepared, AFL ready kid to EVER be in the system.
He is the only player in history to have 24 or more touches in his first 6 games. 50% better than everyone else to ever play the game.

.....but NEXT year, 2 are better than him?

It may well be true.....but seems unlikely.

In any event, that is only part of the puzzle.

The stocker trade has a simple equation.....but a very subjective answer.

If Stocker + Crows 2019 pick > Carlton 2019 pick, then we win.

All i was saying is that it is possible that Stocker > Carlton 2019 pick.....and if so, Crows pick is a pure bonus.

Stokker doesn't need to better than pick 1. We traded one first rounder for two first rounders.

Stokker doesn't need to better than pick 1. We traded one first rounder for two first rounders.

Oy.

I know he doesn't.

People are just losing their minds saying we gave up pick 1 for him. That in itself is 'proof' that we did the wrong thing.

I'm saying bollocks for multiple reasons.

The simplest reason that COULD be bollocks is if Stocker is better than pick 1 this year. Nobody can argue we lost that trade if true. Obviously, its unlikely, but from there we can make people see that its not as simple as giving up pick 1. ESPECIALLY when you factor in we still have a 1st round pick to use.

Extrapolation Lods. Use the grey matter.

Has jimbo hacked your account?

No  what I'm actually getting is a rather confusing picture. It seems the suggestion is that the club are being a bit cagey with the true picture and that they never really expected an improvement. Either they did or they didn't or things have gone off the rails
Which is it? Stocker may have been rated a pick 6 by us. But it seems no other club rated him that high. So he went where general expectations were or perhaps a bit ahead of that. I understand the need to look for justification for a position but don't close your mind to alternative opinions.

No  what I'm actually getting is a rather confusing picture. It seems the suggestion is that the club are being a bit cagey with the true picture and that they never really expected an improvement. Either they did or they didn't or things have gone off the rails
Which is it? Stocker may have been rated a pick 6 by us. But it seems no other club rated him that high. So he went where general expectations were or perhaps a bit ahead of that. I understand the need to look for justification for a position but don't close your mind to alternative opinions.

You may recall how excited i was when the whole prospect of live trading was being talked about. I had called for as much for a long time, using the NFLs workings to point out the advantages of such a system and how it could benefit us.

Many were scared of the whole concept. Until SOS did THAT trade with Stocker and people started to believe. Now people are scared again after seeing a potential problem with that trade. I'm just pointing out things that many seem to overlook when evaluated such a trade.

Too many folks on here, yourself included, are fixated on what the club expected and what that means for that trade....and as a club.

Firstly, the whole rating of players in the same draft is hard enough. Yarran vs Rich vs Ziebell thread shows how quickly a 'win' can turn into a 'loss' and back again.
Obviously, rating players from different drafts adds a whole other layer of complexity to the already very subjective method of rating players. Not the least of which is the fact that we are getting a player with 1 year of development behind them over whoever we could take next year.

Secondly, the clubs expectations would be reevaluated regularly as well. So whatever our initial expectations were about this season, i'm pretty sure it didn't take into account we'd lose our co-captain and equal best player for the whole season, again. So expectations pre-draft would differ from post draft would differ from day 1 of preseason to the final day of preseason etc etc.

Thirdly, If the club did have poor expectations going into this season, would it be in its best interests to make that public?
If it did, would we have record membership numbers? Probably not.
New sponsorship deals worth mega bucks? Probably not.
Would merchandise sales be down as a result? Yes
Would players be given an excuse for failing? Yes, and thats not ok.
Would attendances be as high? Definitely not.
Would there be increased media scrutiny on us if that was our expectation? Absolutely.

So again....is it in the clubs best interests to make this public? Hell no. Yes, some supporters, like yourself, would appreciate the honesty, but overall, its a very bad strategy.

Finally, is it possible that the club did NOT expect to be this bad? Yes.
Could that because of injuries (Doc etc) yes.
Could that be because of a lack of development in some players? Yes.
Could it be because the coaching group is failing? Yes thats true too.

My mind is open to so many permutations about where we are, where we should be and why we are where we are and where we will be in the future and how all this has happened thus far and who is on first and what is on 2nd. ;)

We won't know for a couple of years how good Stocker is (assuming he can stay on the park), but for the sake of the discussion, what numbers would constitute a win, assuming we stay within some kind of spectrum of reality ?

e.g we finish 16th, Crows finish 8th. They get pick 3, we get Stocks plus pick 11. Win or loss ?

We won't know for a couple of years how good Stocker is (assuming he can stay on the park), but for the sake of the discussion, what numbers would constitute a win, assuming we stay within some kind of spectrum of reality ?

e.g we finish 16th, Crows finish 8th. They get pick 3, we get Stocks plus pick 11. Win or loss ?

IMO its almost certainly a win already given how we managed to get a 1st round pick from thin air to begin with.

Reality is, we won't know if its a win or a loss for a decade.

What happens if Crows got pick 1, and we got pick 18? win or loss?
What if the above, but Stocker wins a brownlow in 5 years? Win or loss?
What if we delist stocker in 2 years, but pick 18 becomes better than pick 1? Win or loss?

There is no simple answer.

The Stocker trade could fall either way.  I think it'll work out well.  One of the few recruiting decisions Silvagni has made that I'll support.

Patience and payout can be wildly different.

 

IMO its almost certainly a win already given how we managed to get a 1st round pick from thin air to begin with.

Reality is, we won't know if its a win or a loss for a decade.

What happens if Crows got pick 1, and we got pick 18? win or loss?
What if the above, but Stocker wins a brownlow in 5 years? Win or loss?
What if we delist stocker in 2 years, but pick 18 becomes better than pick 1? Win or loss?

There is no simple answer.

I appreciate that. And I'm one of the few who doesn't care whether the Crows get pick 1 or 18. All I care is that Stocks has a good long career with us, and the same applies for whoever we pick up. That's already a big win, especially for a club that has pick 1's and first rounders coming out of its ears.

Thirdly, If the club did have poor expectations going into this season, would it be in its best interests to make that public?
If it did, would we have record membership numbers? Probably not.
New sponsorship deals worth mega bucks? Probably not.
Would merchandise sales be down as a result? Yes
Would players be given an excuse for failing? Yes, and thats not ok.
Would attendances be as high? Definitely not.
Would there be increased media scrutiny on us if that was our expectation? Absolutely.

So again....is it in the clubs best interests to make this public? Hell no. Yes, some supporters, like yourself, would appreciate the honesty, but overall, its a very bad strategy.

Finally, is it possible that the club did NOT expect to be this bad? Yes.
Could that because of injuries (Doc etc) yes.
Could that be because of a lack of development in some players? Yes.
Could it be because the coaching group is failing? Yes thats true too.

My mind is open to so many permutations about where we are, where we should be and why we are where we are and where we will be in the future and how all this has happened thus far and who is on first and what is on 2nd. ;)

I'm more than comfortable with all of that and don't disagree with any of it....
But what I'm seeing in some arguments is a greater emphasis and trust to different aspects.
It's natural to choose aspects that support your point of view.
If you're a fan of Bolton it won't be the coaches' fault it's injuries or the players.
If you're not it's all the fault of the coach.
It's occurring on both sides of the discussion.

Let me give an example

SOS says Liam Stocker was really worth pick 6....that sounds brilliant drafting strategy.... we believe the club.
Chris Judd says ….we never expected to be 1 and 8....That's just spin because the club wouldn't have said from the start we expect to be 1 and 8....we don't believe the club.

It's selective choosing to fit a point of view.
It's the same for some arguing in reverse...ignore the good and concentrate on the negatives.

As Capcom says it could fall either way...I suspect Stocker will be a very good player but if we do finish last and Pick 1 turns out to be a superstar he'll always be the one we gave away.
We'll have to wait and see.
It'll change no doubt but right now, as I write, we've given up Pick 1 for a 12 and 19.

(and that's an example of how you spin things to suit an argument)

Extrapolation Lods. Use the grey matter.

Has jimbo hacked your account?

Ssssssshhh!!!

I'm more than comfortable with all of that and don't disagree with any of it....
But what I'm seeing in some arguments is a greater emphasis and trust to different aspects.
It's natural to choose aspects that support your point of view.
If you're a fan of Bolton it won't be the coaches' fault it's injuries or the players.
If you're not it's all the fault of the coach.
It's occurring on both sides of the discussion.

Let me give an example

SOS says Liam Stocker was really worth pick 6....that sounds brilliant drafting strategy.... we believe the club.
Chris Judd says ….we never expected to be 1 and 8....That's just spin because the club wouldn't have said from the start we expect to be 1 and 8....we don't believe the club.

It's selective choosing to fit a point of view.
It's the same for some arguing in reverse...ignore the good and concentrate on the negatives.

As Capcom says it could fall either way...I suspect Stocker will be a very good player but if we do finish last and Pick 1 turns out to be a superstar he'll always be the one we gave away.
We'll have to wait and see.
It'll change no doubt but right now, as I write, we've given up Pick 1 for a 12 and 19.

(and that's an example of how you spin things to suit an argument)

The bold bit seems to be the crux of your argument re spin.

There is a logical reason which involves no spin, no lies and no misinformation for that whole scenario to work.

Chris Judd says...we never expected to be 1-8.

No, we probably didn't expect to be 1-8......but we've had some serious setbacks with Docherty being the obvious one, a couple of close losses that could've gone the other way and with a bit of luck we've easily got 4 wins, even with losing Doc.

That's just spin because the club wouldn't have said from the start we expect to be 1 and 8

No its not spin. Expectations had to be reevaluated. We didn't EXPECT to be 1 and 8, but for reasons mentioned above, we are.

we don't believe the club

You said yourself, you believe what you want to believe.

Here is my initial post Kruds, that some seem to have taken issue with...

I think a bit of concern comes from the fact that while you thought we would be bottom 2 Paul, the messages from the club indicate that they certainly didn't (Bolton, Judd comments, trading of the pick last year for Stocker. He may turn out to be a very good player but probably not Pick 1 or 2).

If a poster on a forum is closer to the mark than the football department, that kind of indicates that we're not totally on top of the situation or at the very least we've slipped off the expected pace.

That's basically what you're suggesting ...unexpected influences (reasons)=slipping off the expected pace.
We are not where we thought we'd be.
Judd gave voice to that.
That's what I believe.


I'm sure there are some who would believe the former...we are no longer in control of the situation.

You can't control everything, injuries/illness, dodgy umpiring, even dodgier MRO decisions, but we need to start controlling what we can control, and that is effort. It actually should be one of the easiest variables to control. You either give it 100% or you play NB's. I'm going to the game today, and I want to see 100% effort from all players for the entire game, if not then I'm not going to be happy

At the start of the season, I mentioned that I thought we were being sold false hope and that I was being negative.

Blind freddy could see we weren't going to start in red hot form, and lo and behold it happened.

I thought irrespective we'd be in that 16th-12th band of ladder finishes.  Had we won against gold coast like we should have it would likely be the case.

Still there's a bit of water to flow under the bridge yet and I'm expecting a better second half of the year than first.

At the start of the season, I mentioned that I thought we were being sold false hope and that I was being negative.

Blind freddy could see we weren't going to start in red hot form, and lo and behold it happened.

I thought irrespective we'd be in that 16th-12th band of ladder finishes.  Had we won against gold coast like we should have it would likely be the case.

Still there's a bit of water to flow under the bridge yet and I'm expecting a better second half of the year than first.

On the glass almost half full side, we almost took the Tigers after a terrible first quarter and we should have neaten the Pies but for the influence of 4 men in yellow....

Whilst I'm far from certain about Bolton's merits as a senior coach, our best this year has been very good, no question.

The variance between best and worst (efforts) remains our problem.

Part of that is that we have many young guys,part of that is poor selection and poor role choices (eg Curnow up forward, LOB getting games).

The biggest problem is the lack of mature bodied mids top help Crippa eg the need to pick a Bolton and/or Pickett tomorrow. Not to mention the odd decision to not pick and play Kennedy earlier....people say he's slow. Yeah he was slowish last year after a lost pre season and ankle injuries but it was evident to all this year he was leaner and quicker (note he did a 3.12 for the 20m in his combine - and he'd be faster now, no question). For BB to suggest he's too much like Crippa is why he wasn't picked just beggars belief....

Dow, Fish, Walsh, Setters etc will get better but Dow and Setters need to play 2s for a stretch and find his feet by executing the basics well again.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2019-05-24/bolton-kennedy-to-get-his-opportunity

Yet LOB gets picked after showing zilch form in the 2s....even Polson should get a gig ahead of LOB - on merit.

I would have thought Kennedy should be ahead of Setters in thew pecking order and He (MK) would the obvious replacement for Crippa to allow our Captain to rotate forward from time to time....clearly the MC hasn't agreed prior top today  :-[ ::)

I think Kennedys extended time in the 2's could be put down to weathering the folau/twitter scandal.

Fasolo is the emergency not lining up for the NBs.

I think Kennedys extended time in the 2's could be put down to weathering the folau/twitter scandal.

f... I'M GLAD SOMEONE'S SAID IT!!

You can't control everything, injuries/illness, dodgy umpiring, even dodgier MRO decisions, but we need to start controlling what we can control, and that is effort. It actually should be one of the easiest variables to control. You either give it 100% or you play NB's. I'm going to the game today, and I want to see 100% effort from all players for the entire game, if not then I'm not going to be happy

Fair call Jack.

Fair call Jack.

Indeed. If someones doesn't put the effort in - or is playing poorly - they should be dropped.

Young Curnow is one who should be playing 2s presently....

Indeed. If someones doesn't put the effort in - or is playing poorly - they should be dropped.

Young Curnow is one who should be playing 2s presently....

I've heard this many a time, and while that is correct in an ideal world people are overlooking the obvious.

We haven't got 22 players on our list who are consistently putting effort in, thus, some who deserve to get dropped continue to be picked.

I think Kennedys extended time in the 2's could be put down to weathering the folau/twitter scandal.

I suspect that it played a part; the club may have wanted to protect the young man from booing.  The Aints fan will probably give it a halfhearted go today though.

Indeed. If someones doesn't put the effort in - or is playing poorly - they should be dropped.

Young Curnow is one who should be playing 2s presently....

You keep repeating this like it’s some sort of fact.
I’m not sure if lack of effort is correct, he doesn’t seem to be getting much reward I’ll agree with you on that.

You can't control everything, injuries/illness, dodgy umpiring, even dodgier MRO decisions, but we need to start controlling what we can control, and that is effort. It actually should be one of the easiest variables to control. You either give it 100% or you play NB's. I'm going to the game today, and I want to see 100% effort from all players for the entire game, if not then I'm not going to be happy

I wish i could. I feel like $hit.