Carlton Supporters Club

Hello everyone, if this exists, please merge it where it should be.

The 16th to the 18th of November 2021 will be remembered as a historic moment in time for the people of Victoria.  The people of Victoria have been living in a “State of emergency “ under the health and well-being Act going back a few years. This state of emergency finally expires on the 15th of December 2021. The Victorian government has been working on an amended plan to take over after the 15th of December. It is known as the Pandemic Management bill. It has been worked on since April 2021. A one hundred plus page bill. On how the Victorian government can manage the Covid pandemic in our state. To apparently manage the safety of the people. Through settings that were part of the previous health and well-being Act.

This new Act has many problems with how it can be applied. Issues stated by the President of Victorian Bar Council. Issues stated by Liberty Victoria. Issues stated by at least a dozen recognised QC’s of which have all written mail to the current government to make major changes to this bill. To avoid imposing on human rights regulations, employment rights under fair work, and issues that will effect the judicial rights of all Victorians. This new bill has been voted in with the lower house of government in Victoria. It is now in serious discussion in the upper house. With little doubt it will be passed, and be a new standard to how we all are going to experience what will be called Pandemic Management.

It has the power once activated to be our new State of emergency, and allow many settings, restrictions of movement and penalties to fall in place. Something we have never seen before anywhere in the world. The Premier of the state and the Health minister have full powers to enforce any settings they feel are required to execute pandemic management. The Chief Health Officer is now just an advisory role. Playing a role that states facts and recommendations but the end result is what the Premier and Health minister decide to act on in our new settings. Not up for vote amongst other parliamentary members. Their concerns will be heard. However they can be rejected. They can offer further concerns to a committee which will review all concerns and act. A committee which is independent. One selected by the Premier and Health minister. Wow. How independent is that.

A settings or restriction can be placed on the community based on individual “attributes and characteristics “. Something we all have. We are all either black, white, male, female, gay, lesbian, fat, skinny, rich, poor, tall, short, and many more of these attributes and characteristics. Including the most important one of all. Political views. You could see a setting, restriction or a penalty applied to you based on your political view. Does any of this concern one person only here? Now I get to the hard nuts. We all know the first attribute will be unvaccinated. Sounds like a logical target. I don’t think speculation by me is anything less than what everyone expected. Why wasn’t this in the bill? Why does it allow such a grey area to target anyone? Is this about health and well-being of all Victorians. We were told by Dan Andrews that once we get to 80% fully vaccinated population we need to live with the virus.

Why do we now have a new bill? Why have we been given a glimmer of hope to see our families and friends for Christmas? Why have we been promised a chance to live under a covid way of life?  Why is there going to be a huge super spread issue going to happen day one of the Boxing Day test? Do I sit here and say nothing or tell you money talks and bullsh1t walks. 80 to 85 thousand people. I know it is in the open. They sit on top of each other. No 1.5m social distancing.  $150 per ticket average cost. Some more some less. Get on the beers Victoria. It might be our last moment of freedom for a while. Obviously add food and drinks to the total and we have a huge tax back to the government of the state.

Now for the hard items to digest. The penalties to those that don’t conform to the settings and restrictions that could be in place. No more $200 or $400 no face masks. The new penalties to minor breaches will be as high as $20,909. Not scanning in with your QR code could be as high as $90,000. Sorry but I forgot could be a very expensive result. Don’t ignore paying the penalty. It could cost you two years behind bars. Don’t bother getting a highly rated solicitor or barrister. The judicial system will have no standing against the new emergency state. It will over rule standard human rights laws. Appeals will be heard by the independent committee selected by the Premier. How do you think that will go?

Have you all heard about the new police rights regarding warrants and access to your property? You will have no rights. The police will be allowed access to your property for any suspicion regarding the new Pandemic Management ruling. Whether you have posted anything on a media site, phone calls, or public comments caught on CCTV. If there is anything that follows any trend against the political views of the current government, you can be detained and have all of your items removed from your house. Phone, tablets and computers. They can enter on a feeling you might be against the current government views huge or small. No warrants required. If you place a hand on any Officer of the law or a member of the department of health services you can be arrested and be jailed for at least 2 years. They can justify your reaction as assaults on an officer. Stand back or go to jail.

I am not an anti-vaxer. I have my first jab. I just fear what is yet to come. Sure come at me. I am considered anti Labor. Wrong. It is ant communism. Anti government because I was promised so much and delivered so little. Vote them out at the next election people say. That is November 2022. Andrews government could extend that election. They will. The new bill will allow them to do so indefinitely. As long as the virus exists anywhere in the world they can select restrictions to go along pandemic management . They can void elections. They can do as they choose. They can shut down businesses indefinitely. Call the committee as the judges in the courts will have no say. We Victorians are screwed. Remember my words in the first month of 2022. I hope I am wrong but in this case I know I am not.

Evil personified.

Hello everyone, if this exists, please merge it where it should be.

The 16th to the 18th of November 2021 will be remembered as a historic moment in time for the people of Victoria.  The people of Victoria have been living in a “State of emergency “ under the health and well-being Act going back a few years. This state of emergency finally expires on the 15th of December 2021. The Victorian government has been working on an amended plan to take over after the 15th of December. It is known as the Pandemic Management bill. It has been worked on since April 2021. A one hundred plus page bill. On how the Victorian government can manage the Covid pandemic in our state. To apparently manage the safety of the people. Through settings that were part of the previous health and well-being Act.

This new Act has many problems with how it can be applied. Issues stated by the President of Victorian Bar Council. Issues stated by Liberty Victoria. Issues stated by at least a dozen recognised QC’s of which have all written mail to the current government to make major changes to this bill. To avoid imposing on human rights regulations, employment rights under fair work, and issues that will effect the judicial rights of all Victorians. This new bill has been voted in with the lower house of government in Victoria. It is now in serious discussion in the upper house. With little doubt it will be passed, and be a new standard to how we all are going to experience what will be called Pandemic Management.

It has the power once activated to be our new State of emergency, and allow many settings, restrictions of movement and penalties to fall in place. Something we have never seen before anywhere in the world. The Premier of the state and the Health minister have full powers to enforce any settings they feel are required to execute pandemic management. The Chief Health Officer is now just an advisory role. Playing a role that states facts and recommendations but the end result is what the Premier and Health minister decide to act on in our new settings. Not up for vote amongst other parliamentary members. Their concerns will be heard. However they can be rejected. They can offer further concerns to a committee which will review all concerns and act. A committee which is independent. One selected by the Premier and Health minister. Wow. How independent is that.

A settings or restriction can be placed on the community based on individual “attributes and characteristics “. Something we all have. We are all either black, white, male, female, gay, lesbian, fat, skinny, rich, poor, tall, short, and many more of these attributes and characteristics. Including the most important one of all. Political views. You could see a setting, restriction or a penalty applied to you based on your political view. Does any of this concern one person only here? Now I get to the hard nuts. We all know the first attribute will be unvaccinated. Sounds like a logical target. I don’t think speculation by me is anything less than what everyone expected. Why wasn’t this in the bill? Why does it allow such a grey area to target anyone? Is this about health and well-being of all Victorians. We were told by Dan Andrews that once we get to 80% fully vaccinated population we need to live with the virus.

Why do we now have a new bill? Why have we been given a glimmer of hope to see our families and friends for Christmas? Why have we been promised a chance to live under a covid way of life?  Why is there going to be a huge super spread issue going to happen day one of the Boxing Day test? Do I sit here and say nothing or tell you money talks and bullsh1t walks. 80 to 85 thousand people. I know it is in the open. They sit on top of each other. No 1.5m social distancing.  $150 per ticket average cost. Some more some less. Get on the beers Victoria. It might be our last moment of freedom for a while. Obviously add food and drinks to the total and we have a huge tax back to the government of the state.

Now for the hard items to digest. The penalties to those that don’t conform to the settings and restrictions that could be in place. No more $200 or $400 no face masks. The new penalties to minor breaches will be as high as $20,909. Not scanning in with your QR code could be as high as $90,000. Sorry but I forgot could be a very expensive result. Don’t ignore paying the penalty. It could cost you two years behind bars. Don’t bother getting a highly rated solicitor or barrister. The judicial system will have no standing against the new emergency state. It will over rule standard human rights laws. Appeals will be heard by the independent committee selected by the Premier. How do you think that will go?

Have you all heard about the new police rights regarding warrants and access to your property? You will have no rights. The police will be allowed access to your property for any suspicion regarding the new Pandemic Management ruling. Whether you have posted anything on a media site, phone calls, or public comments caught on CCTV. If there is anything that follows any trend against the political views of the current government, you can be detained and have all of your items removed from your house. Phone, tablets and computers. They can enter on a feeling you might be against the current government views huge or small. No warrants required. If you place a hand on any Officer of the law or a member of the department of health services you can be arrested and be jailed for at least 2 years. They can justify your reaction as assaults on an officer. Stand back or go to jail.

I am not an anti-vaxer. I have my first jab. I just fear what is yet to come. Sure come at me. I am considered anti Labor. Wrong. It is ant communism. Anti government because I was promised so much and delivered so little. Vote them out at the next election people say. That is November 2022. Andrews government could extend that election. They will. The new bill will allow them to do so indefinitely. As long as the virus exists anywhere in the world they can select restrictions to go along pandemic management . They can void elections. They can do as they choose. They can shut down businesses indefinitely. Call the committee as the judges in the courts will have no say. We Victorians are screwed. Remember my words in the first month of 2022. I hope I am wrong but in this case I know I am not.

Yep.

We shouldnt view these rules under the current status quo.

They should be viewed through the lens, of what happens when someone who is more extremist and less focussed on whats in "the publics interest, but not me, the people who serve me".

How could these rules be exploited to create a truly broken state?

The irony, is that the Labor party has signed its death warrant, and the Liberal party will be elected next year.  First time, in my 20 years of voting, that I am going to flip.  Funny enough, Im a public servant and Im still going to flip.

Yep.

We shouldnt view these rules under the current status quo.

They should be viewed through the lens, of what happens when someone who is more extremist and less focussed on whats in "the publics interest, but not me, the people who serve me".

How could these rules be exploited to create a truly broken state?

The irony, is that the Labor party has signed its death warrant, and the Liberal party will be elected next year.  First time, in my 20 years of voting, that I am going to flip.  Funny enough, Im a public servant and Im still going to flip.

The Bill is still being debated with amendments from both the opposition and the cross-benchers still to be voted upon.  Until the Bill is passed we won't what amendments it contains or what their likely effects will be.

Unlike you, I believe the opposition has shot itself in the foot with its support of the ratbag fringe at Parliament House and has ensured the re-election of the present government.

 

I'm not sure the rules can be judged at a state level, if we had a Federal Gov that was aligned it would be a more serious issue but there is little the State can do if cases go to the High Court.

Here is not like the USA were State Governors can just defy the Federal Court system, or where they have a complicit Federal level supporter like Trump.

Also here is not like Greece, Egypt or Turkey where the problems are caused by the equivalent of Federal level corruption.

Despite the level of commentary from some sectors, we are not seeing a wholesale dismissal of the changes, the dissenting voices even from within the legal are still very much a small minority.

If the other states and then the Federal government start to make noises of such changes it would be worthwhile worrying, but I doubt they will, there isn't even strong consensus within the State level government.

Andrews is turning Victoria into Gilead something resembling that fictional  totalitarian USA state from the novel the handmaid's tale. He is a lunatic, what other state is considering these non democratic proposals that strip away legal rights and give him dictatorship powers..

Bear in mind that the Bill has now been substantially re-written to gain the support of the crossbench.  Apparently, it now has their support and will be passed in the Legislative Council - democracy at work  :-\

The major changes to the Bill are:
- Significant reductions in fines for breaching public health orders.
- A stronger threshold for declaring a pandemic (I thought that a WHO declaration would be the trigger but weren't they slow in responding to COVID?).
- Strengthened human right protections.
- The right to protest to be enshrined in regulation.
- Guaranteed resourcing for an independent oversight committee.
- Faster publication of public health advice (within seven days of a pandemic order being made, down from 14).
- Clarifying that pandemic orders targeted on the basis of personal attributes must be relevant to the public health risk.

Reactions to those changes are mixed: 
- Ombudsman, Deborah Glass, wants a budget increase so that she can effectively scrutinise the operation of the Act (if passed).
- The Victorian Bar and Law Institute remain concerned about effective oversight and control.
- The Australian Industry Group is concerned by the powers vested in authorised officers, or bureaucrats.
- The Human Rights Legal Centre backed the amendments as "the sorts of safeguards that ultimately help government make better decisions and also help build and maintain public trust in those decisions."

Finally, public law specialist, Prof William Partlett from the University of Melbourne, said:

... Victoria's new bill in many ways might "set a model" for the reforms he expects will be made in jurisdictions across the globe.

"This is a debate that's happening across the world; Victoria's one of the first jurisdictions to be doing this," he told ABC Radio Melbourne.

With that caveat noted, he believed the bill was "an improvement on what exists in New South Wales", where the Act is around 11 years old.

The Victorian government has noted the current NSW laws have more relaxed triggers for invoking emergency powers, and fewer limits on the length of a declaration compared to the new Victorian bill.

"I fully expect and would hope New South Wales would redraft and create their own fit-for-purpose law, taking into account a lot of what they've learnt," Dr Partlett said.

Dr Partlett said the Victorian bill had some "real innovations", including the "excellent" privacy protections around contact-tracing information, more transparency on health advice and clear responsibility held by the health minister of the day.

"I think every state in Australia is going to have to redraft ... and that's why this is such a significant piece of legislation for Australia, because Victoria is largely going to set a model," he said.

But he agreed with those calling for a more rigorous oversight system, as well as an overall review of the law's effectiveness after 18 months.

"We want to try and get some independent review ... to ensure that these powers don't get misused," he said.

"I mean, I think it's unlikely that they would be, but we need to have those protections in place."

It seems to me that the Bill is a much-needed improvement over the current out-dated Act but lacks necessary safeguards.  Prof Partlett and other eminent public law specialists have called for the creation of a specialised cross-party parliamentary committee that would immediately start operating when a pandemic declaration is put into effect.  This appears to be emerging global best practice and already exists at Federal level with the Senate Select Committee on COVID-19.  New Zealand has a cross-party Epidemic Response Committee.

To me, this is where our Federal system fails us.  Surely National Cabinet should be able to develop parameters for consistent legislation when national issues like pandemics are concerned.  I get that the States and Territories are different and may require nuanced responses to suit their particular circumstances, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a set of minimum requirements to apply in all jurisdictions.

To add another angle, which is my bias... the mental health aspect.

Politics to one side for a moment and the necessity to implement strong measures to minimize the impact of Covid, particularly Delta, the mental health/illness/wellbeing impact has been far greater than many might imagine. And this won't be reflected in the figures, the full impact, for some time to come. Mental health resources are already appallingly under funded, under resourced and under supported... nationally and state wide.

To even propose a bill that would deliver such dramatic and wide sweeping authority/power into the hands of very few is a disgrace. Hanging this bill and its extremes over the heads of an already deeply stressed population is staggering in its ignorance. The inhumanity of this proposal is, simply put, dangerous.

Loved your piece, Green Stick but I would correct one thing... this is not communistic but rather authoritarian, even dictatorial. An entire population is potentially being threatened/punished for the sins of a few, as I think 3 Leos touched on. By all means create laws to rein in some of the extreme behaviours of the lunatic fringe, but not at the expense of the entire population and our 'freedoms.' Most folks are bloody ripper team players and deserve to be trusted and supported.

Bear in mind that the Bill has now been substantially re-written to gain the support of the crossbench.  Apparently, it now has their support and will be passed in the Legislative Council - democracy at work  :-\

The major changes to the Bill are:
- Significant reductions in fines for breaching public health orders.
- A stronger threshold for declaring a pandemic (I thought that a WHO declaration would be the trigger but weren't they slow in responding to COVID?).
- Strengthened human right protections.
- The right to protest to be enshrined in regulation.
- Guaranteed resourcing for an independent oversight committee.
- Faster publication of public health advice (within seven days of a pandemic order being made, down from 14).
- Clarifying that pandemic orders targeted on the basis of personal attributes must be relevant to the public health risk.

Reactions to those changes are mixed: 
- Ombudsman, Deborah Glass, wants a budget increase so that she can effectively scrutinise the operation of the Act (if passed).
- The Victorian Bar and Law Institute remain concerned about effective oversight and control.
- The Australian Industry Group is concerned by the powers vested in authorised officers, or bureaucrats.
- The Human Rights Legal Centre backed the amendments as "the sorts of safeguards that ultimately help government make better decisions and also help build and maintain public trust in those decisions."

Finally, public law specialist, Prof William Partlett from the University of Melbourne, said:

It seems to me that the Bill is a much-needed improvement over the current out-dated Act but lacks necessary safeguards.  Prof Partlett and other eminent public law specialists have called for the creation of a specialised cross-party parliamentary committee that would immediately start operating when a pandemic declaration is put into effect.  This appears to be emerging global best practice and already exists at Federal level with the Senate Select Committee on COVID-19.  New Zealand has a cross-party Epidemic Response Committee.

To me, this is where our Federal system fails us.  Surely National Cabinet should be able to develop parameters for consistent legislation when national issues like pandemics are concerned.  I get that the States and Territories are different and may require nuanced responses to suit their particular circumstances, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a set of minimum requirements to apply in all jurisdictions.

This is good to read, and a relief. I was tempted to remove my post but stand by the perception that it is incredulous that the original bill could have even been proposed. An indictment and concerning attitude from Dan. The people of this nation, and Vic and NSW in particular, deserve hope and some semblance of normality.

To me, this is where our Federal system fails us.  Surely National Cabinet should be able to develop parameters for consistent legislation when national issues like pandemics are concerned.  I get that the States and Territories are different and may require nuanced responses to suit their particular circumstances, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a set of minimum requirements to apply in all jurisdictions.

I think patience is a key here, we should not disregard the fact that a good chunk of our Federal Politicians are Victorian.

The concept of a "Them vs us" (State vs Federal) mentality is a synthetic construct of media and social media that doesn't really exist at critical political and legal levels. I even use it in my Anti-ACB rants. That sort of finger-pointing works in the newspapers and on Facebook for trivial issues, it may motivate a State of Origin team, but it doesn't fly in the High Court and never will.

I think people should be far more fearful that assuming the pandemic subsides, the Federal and State authorities kybosh any and all forward planning, much like they did after the original SARS outbreak subsided. It's like those political claims that global warming doesn't really exist which are continually being raised after a short cold snap.

The will to act is weak, and the inertia to resist any or every change is strong, it says more about humanity than anything else!

Do we always prefer to preserve our way of pre-existing way of life, at the potential cost of lives, is doing nothing a valid action for either side of this argument? If so or if not how can either side win the debate?

He is a lunatic, what other state is considering these non democratic proposals that strip away legal rights and give him dictatorship powers..

You're being way too kind @ElwoodBlues1 .. he has engineered every move to thwart any opposition to his socialist manisfesto. 

Hitler brought in the Enabling act of 1933 to allow him to change laws without going through the Reichstag and override any constitutional law.

To add another angle, which is my bias... the mental health aspect.

Politics to one side for a moment and the necessity to implement strong measures to minimize the impact of Covid, particularly Delta, the mental health/illness/wellbeing impact has been far greater than many might imagine. And this won't be reflected in the figures, the full impact, for some time to come. Mental health resources are already appallingly under funded, under resourced and under supported... nationally and state wide.

Brett Sutton and Stephen Duckett have written an editorial in the Medical Journal of Australia criticising National Cabinet's COVID-19 roadmap for 'missing a "recovery phase" that addresses the long term economic and mental health impacts of the pandemic'.

I think that is very fair appraisal but State and Federal Governments aren't having a bar of it  >:(

I think patience is a key here, we should not disregard the fact that a good chunk of our Federal Politicians are Victorian.

The concept of a "Them vs us" (State vs Federal) mentality is a synthetic construct of media and social media that doesn't really exist at critical political and legal levels. I even use it in my Anti-ACB rants. That sort of finger-pointing works in the newspapers and on Facebook for trivial issues, it may motivate a State of Origin team, but it doesn't fly in the High Court and never will.

I think people should be far more fearful that assuming the pandemic subsides, the Federal and State authorities kybosh any and all forward planning, much like they did after the original SARS outbreak subsided. It's like those political claims that global warming doesn't really exist which are continually being raised after a short cold snap.

The will to act is weak, and the inertia to resist any or every change is strong, it says more about humanity than anything else!

Do we always prefer to preserve our way of pre-existing way of life, at the potential cost of lives, is doing nothing a valid action for either side of this argument? If so or if not how can either side win the debate?

The problem isn't a "them vs us" issue.  It's a lack of leadership at Federal/State/Territory levels.

The creation of National Cabinet to co-ordinate the response to COVID was brilliant ... but its potential to bring about a united, "Commonwealth" approach hasn't been realised.  Without great improvements in leadership at all levels of government, it probably never will.

The problem isn't a "them vs us" issue.  It's a lack of leadership at Federal/State/Territory levels.

The creation of National Cabinet to co-ordinate the response to COVID was brilliant ... but its potential to bring about a united, "Commonwealth" approach hasn't been realised.  Without great improvements in leadership at all levels of government, it probably never will.

I see it as "Us vs Them" from a political level because if the Feds don't get their act together the States aren't going to wait.

These are obviously not local issues, yet the dearth of Federal leadership under Scomo is astounding, that National Cabinet was great to start with but quickly turned into a white-elephant "He said She said" situation!
 

Somyurek's suspension is lifted and now Labour are worried he will go against bill lol.

There are certainly elements of the bill that don't sit comfortably.   From what I gather,  the idea of it isn't being rejected by the Human Rights Commission,  QCs etc, but some of the powers and oversight is being questioned.

So how does Parliament operate?  Governing Party goes nup. Not going to listen.   This is what it is - we've 'consulted' with you.   Opposition goes nup we don't support it, it is draconian,  over the top,  we'll repeal it when we get the chance. Minority parties go here are some amendments we would like.

Wouldn't it be great to hear: Governing party go we hear your concerns,  but this is why the bill is written this way.   The opposition go - here are the amendments to make it workable and fair and reasonable.   The minorities go here are some of our amendments.

Result of the first are the tv images,  threats to pollies, ugly, divisive language and scenes.

Result of the second is people having a better understanding of why it is needed and that Parliament is working for us.

I really hope the first isn't here to stay.

Somyurek's suspension is lifted and now Labour are worried he will go against bill lol.

He most certainly will. It now leaves the bill in deadlock. Meaning the bill won’t pass. However there will be 11 days for the Dan Andrews government to grind away at another cross bench member to get the numbers. I know the existing bill is something we never thought we would see and imagine something far against our human rights. The same for our employment rights. Don’t look at a few amendments to quickly drive this through the system. Why are you in such a hurry Mr Andrews? December 15th deadline end to the current Act giving you problems. Reasons to lift more restrictions and many for ever? Considering we will have made the percentage of fully vaccinated people in the state. What was promised in terms of living with the virus. You conveniently need this new bill in place as soon as possible. To activate it into play. Then making each setting suit your needs at your discretion. Surely these few amendments are better than the original draft, but they are still lipstick on a pig. They still leave too many interpretations to violate rights without safety nets in place. A monitoring process to judge the actions of the bill. Actions of the government. Independent committee members. Not members of the same government in power or cross bench members with the same political views. A bill that is put in place to be fair for all and still allow judicial intervention when needed. Penalties and fines being holding a fair weight against a breach. For example Dan Andrews is penalised $400 for a no mask breach of health regulations yet his new bill has something similar for $20,909. This has been recommended to be halved. Still excessive. Still too many jail time rules to be locked up for 2 years. Still a sugar coated set of amendments. It needs to be written with care and fair but lest be honest strict regulations. Police enforcement rules need to be modified. Especially property access based on some suspicion of a potential breach of a directive. Some suspicion? It needs to be produced with proper consideration of the consequences to how the people will react and respond. Mental health needs serious consideration. Why can’t all members of the upper house have input to the bill being created? Why is there a rush to push this new bill into action?

Dan states the N.S.W bill is far more strict than his new bill. The New Zealand bill is far more strict than his new bill. The problem with the bill is less of a worry about what the bill allows. It is more of a fear of what it allows Dan Andrews and Mr Health minister Foley, to set in place based on the powers the bill allows. Victoria was once the best place to live. He new Bill needs to be replaced with something that can see better transparency over the current bill. No doubt. However not thank you for your input but we have considered your views which don’t count, so we will do things as we originally planned. We heard you but don’t care. Politicians have a difficult job when things are tough. Why though through this covid period did they have an approved pay increase which was substantial. Dan stated it was because they need to work extra hard during this pandemic. Yet many people lost their jobs. Lost their businesses. Struggling with reduced hours in the jobs they perform. To earn less. On wages lower than those in the lower or upper house. At least the New Zealand Prime Minister suggested and executed a pay reduction to all politicians to wear some of the financial burden all the people feel. To state we are all going through this together. Vote will take place soon. If it gets a vote into power and gets activated before the 15th of December it tells me there was a plan for this to help keep the Dan Andrews in power for the next 11 months. Maybe more. An agenda.

He most certainly will. It now leaves the bill in deadlock. Meaning the bill won’t pass. However there will be 11 days for the Dan Andrews government to grind away at another cross bench member to get the numbers. I know the existing bill is something we never thought we would see and imagine something far against our human rights. The same for our employment rights. Don’t look at a few amendments to quickly drive this through the system. Why are you in such a hurry Mr Andrews? December 15th deadline end to the current Act giving you problems. Reasons to lift more restrictions and many for ever? Considering we will have made the percentage of fully vaccinated people in the state. What was promised in terms of living with the virus. You conveniently need this new bill in place as soon as possible. To activate it into play. Then making each setting suit your needs at your discretion. Surely these few amendments are better than the original draft, but they are still lipstick on a pig. They still leave too many interpretations to violate rights without safety nets in place. A monitoring process to judge the actions of the bill. Actions of the government. Independent committee members. Not members of the same government in power or cross bench members with the same political views. A bill that is put in place to be fair for all and still allow judicial intervention when needed. Penalties and fines being holding a fair weight against a breach. For example Dan Andrews is penalised $400 for a no mask breach of health regulations yet his new bill has something similar for $20,909. This has been recommended to be halved. Still excessive. Still too many jail time rules to be locked up for 2 years. Still a sugar coated set of amendments. It needs to be written with care and fair but lest be honest strict regulations. Police enforcement rules need to be modified. Especially property access based on some suspicion of a potential breach of a directive. Some suspicion? It needs to be produced with proper consideration of the consequences to how the people will react and respond. Mental health needs serious consideration. Why can’t all members of the upper house have input to the bill being created? Why is there a rush to push this new bill into action?

Dan states the N.S.W bill is far more strict than his new bill. The New Zealand bill is far more strict than his new bill. The problem with the bill is less of a worry about what the bill allows. It is more of a fear of what it allows Dan Andrews and Mr Health minister Foley, to set in place based on the powers the bill allows. Victoria was once the best place to live. He new Bill needs to be replaced with something that can see better transparency over the current bill. No doubt. However not thank you for your input but we have considered your views which don’t count, so we will do things as we originally planned. We heard you but don’t care. Politicians have a difficult job when things are tough. Why though through this covid period did they have an approved pay increase which was substantial. Dan stated it was because they need to work extra hard during this pandemic. Yet many people lost their jobs. Lost their businesses. Struggling with reduced hours in the jobs they perform. To earn less. On wages lower than those in the lower or upper house. At least the New Zealand Prime Minister suggested and executed a pay reduction to all politicians to wear some of the financial burden all the people feel. To state we are all going through this together. Vote will take place soon. If it gets a vote into power and gets activated before the 15th of December it tells me there was a plan for this to help keep the Dan Andrews in power for the next 11 months. Maybe more. An agenda.

Just quietly, and I wouldn't be the only one in this position either, but the health care workers at my place of employment all have missed out on the last 2 pay rises that were due based on our EBA. 

It is supposed to increase in line with CPI.  

Why theirs went up and ours didn't is abysmal and im sure he hasn't dressed like a human condomn to go to work either.

Just quietly, and I wouldn't be the only one in this position either, but the health care workers at my place of employment all have missed out on the last 2 pay rises that were due based on our EBA. 

It is supposed to increase in line with CPI.  

Why theirs went up and ours didn't is abysmal and im sure he hasn't dressed like a human condomn to go to work either.

I think from memory Andrews donated his 10k pay rise to charity after copping flak and left it up to his ministers what they wanted to do.

I'm not sure after a pandemic in which many people lost their jobs, business or support, that complaining about people getting a rise in the context of complaining about not getting a rise is a functional argument.

You think that just keeping yourself in work was a win!

I'm sure the conservatives would love members of parliament to receive no pay at all. That way, the independently wealthy would be the only ones in the running. Ensuring pay scales that allow good candidates to have a career in public service is a good thing. That was the thinking behind appointing an independent board to review parliamentary pay: it would avoid the pollies being pressured to vote against pay rises because of political backlash from voters, thereby making a career as a parliamentarian progressively more unattractive. As it is, the Premier is paid much less than a CEO of a company of comparable size to the State of Victoria. And unlike CEOs, the Premier doesn't get million dollar payouts when he retires or loses his position.

Dan is on $450K a year so he won't needing to go to cash converters anytime soon to hock his beloved North Face jacket.
Think he is the best paid Premier in Australia as well... If he was the CEO of a large corporation he would have been fired long ago. Scomo is on about 550k, think I read the NZ govt took a 20% pay cut across the ministry during the main pandemic period but Scomo didn't want to do same...

Nor should he. It's just a lazy whinge that's trotted out every so often as a rhetorical flourish rather than a serious policy issue.

Nor should he. It's just a lazy whinge that's trotted out every so often as a rhetorical flourish rather than a serious policy issue.

Was serious enough for him to put a minimum 6 month wage freeze on public servants... I guess serving the public is a bit different to serving yourself.

Did he order them to give $10k to charity as well?

Premier is probably underpaid, minions are probably overpaid.
Neither should have received pay rises at the same time everyone else was going backwards.

Did he order them to give $10k to charity as well?

Maybe it went to Hillsong.. Followers have to give 10% of their earnings to PM good buddy Brian Houston.. I guess Brian would trump those poor sods who lost their jobs during Covid. Must be nice living off others, paying no tax and having your good mate the charitable  PM have your back.

Somyurek's suspension is lifted and now Labour are worried he will go against bill lol.

I love how the press and the Opposition are treating Somyurek as a saviour who is voting this way to protect the people of Victoria.

In reality, after what happened in IBAC, he would be liking nothing more than the opportunity to give Dan a metaphorical endoscopy using an oversized probe with the word 'NO' emblazoned on the side......

So from midnight tonight the unvaccinated are outcast from society.

So from midnight tonight the unvaccinated are outcast from society.

Their choice.  They are welcome to join the 90 percent any time they like.

So from midnight tonight the unvaccinated are outcast from society.

Who?

They have a party every day at the anti-lockdown protests. What more do they want?

Their choice.  They are welcome to join the 90 percent any time they like.

Not for 13 year olds.

Most 13 year olds would be overjoyed about avoiding restaurant visits with the olds. Give them a PS5 in their bedroom and you're not going to see them until they start going out to pubs.

Most 13 year olds would be overjoyed about avoiding restaurant visits with the olds. Give them a PS5 in their bedroom and you're not going to see them until they start going out to pubs.

They can't go into retail shops

Yes, they avoid being dragged around retail shops by their olds. Even better.

Not for 13 year olds.

Why?  My 12 year old grandson is double-vaxxed.

Yep, I think MBB is thinking that life would be tough for a teenager whose parents are anti-vaxxers given the parents need to consent and anti-vaxxer parents will never consent. But wait, there's hope:

Providing consent for children
Anyone who gets vaccinated must provide appropriate consent. Consent can be provided verbally.

People aged 12 - 17 may provide their own consent, if deemed to be a mature minor by a senior and experienced immuniser. That means that the health professional assesses that you understand the information relevant to the decision to be vaccinated and the effect of that decision.
A child’s parent or guardian can attend the vaccine appointment with them.

So FU anti-vaxxer parents. But if the kid's an anti-vaxxer, then s/he is about to learn a life lesson. Fortunately, Uncle Mick is there to teach it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUqSNbJuGOw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUqSNbJuGOw)

Dan was going to have the vote for the bill on the 18th. However with a feeling he wouldn’t have the numbers, he has organised a delay to the vote. He had a vote to allow a reschedule to this key vote. At the next parliamentary get together. I haven’t read when this will be. A week, two weeks, in a month etc. He needs to get a cross bench member or two to take his side. Matthew Guy has asked if this new watered down version can be revisited with all the MP’s in the upper house to produce a bill that has the input of all the MP’s, and Dan has stated it isn’t up for debate or discussion. The bill is finalised and ready to be voted in as a legal legislation is what Dan states. Now we wait to hear more. Samantha Ratnam, Andy Meddick and Fiona Patten all back the bill as cross bench members. Adem Somyurek threw the curve ball into this situation. Let the kids have their arguments on the school footy oval. Sorry children, I shouldn’t say that. Politicians behave worse than kids in parliament discussions. Far worse. My bad and an amendment with an attachment.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/government-losing-numbers-game-on-pandemic-laws-guy-offers-to-negotiate-20211118-p599y8.html

I'm not sure after a pandemic in which many people lost their jobs, business or support, that complaining about people getting a rise in the context of complaining about not getting a rise is a functional argument.

You think that just keeping yourself in work was a win!

You guys have never cared about them.

Go work in a vaccination clinic though and its bonus cash for those staff as they're considered a specialty.

The rest of us plebs who have been overworked for the last 2 years whilst the let them eat cake mob have gone to work from home and haven't shown their faces at the place couldn't care less. 

We got a 50 dollar gift voucher and new branding to celebrate the 21st anniversary of the health service but you guys can snicker on the forum and belittle all of us with real issues.

Dan was going to have the vote for the bill on the 18th. However with a feeling he wouldn’t have the numbers, he has organised a delay to the vote. He had a vote to allow a reschedule to this key vote. At the next parliamentary get together. I haven’t read when this will be. A week, two weeks, in a month etc. He needs to get a cross bench member or two to take his side. Matthew Guy has asked if this new watered down version can be revisited with all the MP’s in the upper house to produce a bill that has the input of all the MP’s, and Dan has stated it isn’t up for debate or discussion. The bill is finalised and ready to be voted in as a legal legislation is what Dan states. Now we wait to hear more. Samantha Ratnam, Andy Meddick and Fiona Patten all back the bill as cross bench members. Adem Somyurek threw the curve ball into this situation. Let the kids have their arguments on the school footy oval. Sorry children, I shouldn’t say that. Politicians behave worse than kids in parliament discussions. Far worse. My bad and an amendment with an attachment.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/government-losing-numbers-game-on-pandemic-laws-guy-offers-to-negotiate-20211118-p599y8.html

One of the scumbags opposing the Bill assaulted Andy Meddick's daughter and she ended up getting stitches in a headwound.  This occurred after counter-terrorism police charged a Victorian man who encouraged anti-lockdown protesters to bring firearms to State Parliament.  That's awfully like Aurangzeb's attack on democracy in the USA  :(

And here's an interesting opinion from the Sydney Morning Herald:

A great irony is that the proposed [Victorian] laws would be a significant improvement on those in NSW, and a marked improvement on those currently operating in Victoria. Indeed, the debate in Victoria should represent a great opportunity to witness democracy in action. It was a chance to reconsider laws that had not been used on this scale until the COVID pandemic struck. And yet, facing defeat in the Parliament, the Labor government has postponed debate on a bill that would make the law better, not worse, and increase the accountability of ministers rather than deliver them absolute power.

DJC. Is this the same assault on Keilan Meddick? The transgender daughter of Andy Meddick? One who went out with spray cans to spray over anti-vax posters. Had a young man approach her/him and got into an argument. Which quickly turned into anger and Ms Meddick threw the can at the young man, and Ms Meddick walked away in anger. The young man followed and threw the can back at him/her and struck Ms Meddick in the head. Cutting an opening that was treated with stitches. I now read fears for the life of the Meddick family. A target by terrorists of the anti-vax community. Violence is wrong in any shape or form. Don’t put yourself out there to be in harms way. Some of the gallows shots make me think a protest could be seen as something we don’t want to see. Keep it civil and act like humans with respect to all. It always has one bad egg that ruins it for others. Violence is always wrong. Don’t provoke potential trouble. Don’t think angry words will make people see your point of view in a conflict situation. We all went to a nightclub or pub at one stage. We had the common provoking comments of what are you looking at?, or do you have a problem? Signs to walk away. Not throwing anything at the person. Just saying sorry I need to leave. Not allowing a view that an aggressive action is acceptable ever. Last comment. Ms/Mr Meddick Jnr, please let your dad fight his own issues. I would guess he might not be a target. Only a guess. Don’t pick fights if the consequences are what you don’t want to endure.

You guys have never cared about them.We got a 50 dollar gift voucher and new branding to celebrate the 21st anniversary of the health service but you guys can snicker on the forum and belittle all of us with real issues.

You are so far off the mark with your criticism you should be embarrassed, you have made assumptions about what people here do for a living, how they have worked during the pandemic and what they sacrificed, and made an ar5se of yourself!I

Further you have completely ignored the empathy I have shown for emergency services and have written as much in the CV thread,

I'm not the one who complained about the fatness of my pandemic wallet! I'm just grateful me and my colleagues worked together to get our critical industry through it, all of us taking pay cuts, and you expect me to deliver you sympathy for not getting your annual rise!

You are so far off the mark with your criticism you should be embarrassed, you have made assumptions about what people here do for a living, how they have worked during the pandemic and what they sacrificed, and made an ar5se of yourself!I

Further you have completely ignored the empathy I have shown for emergency services and have written as much in the CV thread,

I'm not the one who complained about the fatness of my pandemic wallet! I'm just grateful me and my colleagues worked together to get our critical industry through it, all of us taking pay cuts, and you expect me to deliver you sympathy for not getting your annual rise!

Thats what you think, and its two annual rises now.

The first one they stated was a pandemic once in a lifetime blah blah blah.

The second one has been 0 explanation.

I'll remind you, I've been dressed like a human condom.  Walking into the covid areas.  Putting myself in those places.  The emergency service I provide is to the emergency services.  When you visit an emergency department 3 times a week during a pandemic, give up your Easter long weekend because the same service you work at suffers a cyber incident that takes the health care network down, you keep being asked to roll the sleeves up and work longer hours than you are paid for, the least you can expect is to have your twice annual CPI pay increase  honoured as the proverbial stops hitting the fan.

The other industries are about to get all their cash back with interest from people like me, who did their best to support as many local business during said pandemic the whole time, but your response lacked even a modicum of empathy and was very high horse so if you don't like it, next time keep it to yourself.

Oh, and if your curious im on an administrative award pay rate.  Most ward clerks get paid more than me, and im an IT professional.

HS2.  Im sure you can google what that pays.  Then consider the fact that my wife's hours were reduced because she works for a private health service and they actually stood some of their staff down last year.

Meanwhile the government paid everyone their pandemic support payments including my mother in law who got paid more than her regular wage to go on half hours and stay home.

Good for some.

Not all of those in the front lines it seems. 

Now am I bleeding about it?  No, but you got the response you deserved last time and you should wear a lot of egg for this one too. 

Get with the program, you should be grateful you have a job and politicians are underpaid.

Pollies who donated their pay rises to charity got plaudits for doing so but then claimed those donations as tax deductions, still a nice little earner compared to Thry and his workmates who got nothing twice in a row.
Andrews is the highest paid Premier in the country@452k, his latest increase was around 11k. Hardly a fair go for workers at the front line. Vax nurses get paid more for simple jabs than ER nurses.
One public hospital had staff bringing their own PPE gear at one stage, but the onus is always on hospital staff to do it for the community, work that double shift, spend an extra half hour at work because the agency nurse didn't rock up on time, the change over routine was delayed another half hour because the ward doctor was late because he is overworked and is a grad kid lacking experience and we can't give these lifesavers a CPI rise.. You gotta be kidding...

I'll remind you, I've been dressed like a human condom.  Walking into the covid areas.  Putting myself in those places.  The emergency service I provide is to the emergency services.  When you visit an emergency department 3 times a week during a pandemic, give up your Easter long weekend because the same service you work at suffers a cyber incident that takes the health care network down, you keep being asked to roll the sleeves up and work longer hours than you are paid for, the least you can expect is to have your twice annual CPI pay increase  honoured as the proverbial stops hitting the fan.

I've colleagues who worked 16hr days 7 days a week for months on end, without penalty rates, took a pay cut so the admin / office staff wouldn't be stood down and jobless in a pandemic, just so you could have that condom to wear and disinfectant to use when the discount supplies of the cheap imported stuff you buy in preference to locally made dwindled to zero! IT supplies included, sterilize any keyboards during the pandemic?

There is a world of difference between some 3rd party saying you deserve a better wage, and personally claiming you're somehow hard done by relative to others. And you assert I lack empathy and perspective! :o

Andrews is the highest paid Premier in the country@452k, his latest increase was around 11k. Hardly a fair go for workers at the front line. Vax nurses get paid more for simple jabs than ER nurses.

To say nothing about his superannuation @ElwoodBlues1 !!. 

To say nothing about his superannuation @ElwoodBlues1 !!. 

Yep...I think its right that those at the top of the tree take a hit for the team but Plebs at the bottom who get paid minimal money and struggle to make ends meet need those basic rises to live properly so they can perform those important duties that dont get much credit but are small cogs in the motor that make the health system work.

Victorians rejoiced when another round of restrictions were eased on Friday, but the new rules have caused some confusion.

Children aged 12 to 15 have been barred from taking part in everyday activities like dance concerts and martial arts classes unless they are fully vaccinated, while retailers are scrambling to suddenly enforce vaccine checks.

Many parents were unaware the vaccine mandate applied to children under 16.

Dance Arts Alliance Chair Mike Harrison-Lamond said the new vaccine rules have “blindsided” parents and caused “a few thousand” performing arts students to miss out on classes and concerts.

“We’ve been asking the government to provide clarification for months on whether kids aged 12 plus or 16 plus had to be fully vaccinated and they haven’t provided that,” he said.

Despite this requirement, people don’t need to be vaccinated to play indoor or outdoor community sport.
“There has been inconsistency, a lack of consultation and a lack of notice,” Mr Harrison-Lamond said.

The Dance Arts Alliance has called for the government to provide a grace period so children aged 12 to 15 have time to get vaccinated.

Speaking on radio on Friday, Covid Response Commander Jeroen Weimar said the government has been “really clear” about kids aged 12 plus having to be fully vaccinated.

Mr Weimar said parents would soon be able to upload their child’s vaccine certificate to the Services Victoria app, but could print a digital certificate in the meantime.

Unvaccinated children as young as 12 are being banned from attending their own year six graduations, end-of-year school events and sporting matches.

It comes as confusion reigns in junior sporting clubs and associations, and among parents, over the new jab rules.

Children aged 12 to 15 have been barred from taking part in everyday activities like dance concerts and martial arts classes unless they are fully vaccinated, while retailers are scrambling to suddenly enforce vaccine checks.

Shockwaves are reverberating among parents and children who are discovering their unvaccinated children are being locked out of many venues, shops and activities due to the new government vaccination mandates, which started last Friday. They are being stopped from playing competitive sport, attending activities such as class parties at swimming centres and even sitting formal events such as ballet exams.

Many parents were unaware the vaccine mandate applied to children under 16.
One 12-year-old girl has been stopped from entering a shop to buy her year seven uniform for next year, and forced to try on items standing outside on the footpath.

Another parent of a 14-year-old stopped from attending a friends’ theatre performance said it was “terrifying to see the divide it has caused among kids living in absolute fear and judgment”.

The mother of the girl who had to try on clothes outside an eastern suburbs Bob Stewart’s uniform shop said her daughter was upset and embarrassed.

“She held up the uniform and tried on a jacket standing there and put on leggings over her shorts outside the shop,” she said. “I was livid – they’ve been through so much and they feel like they are still being punished.”

“The staff were good – I don’t blame them.”

And the mother of one student at a central Bendigo primary school has been told by school staff that her daughter will not be able to attend her year six graduation ceremony.

“She’s a school leader and will be devastated,” the mother said.

“She’s also due to go on a school camp and can’t go on many of the outings and excursions- it’s beyond rational – it’s punishment,” she said.

“It’s a real tipping point – they will have to do something about it.”

Simon Owens, registrar of basketball team Mitcham Thunder, said an unvaccinated 12-year-old boy on the autism spectrum was one of many children told at the last minute they couldn’t play sport with their peers.

“We had one team who couldn’t field a team at all because they were down three players,” he said. “The kids think they are being punished for something,” Mr Owens said.

The little boy’s mother said her son only found out last night that he couldn’t play.

“Last night he was prepped for his game eating dinner and I saw the message and broke down as I didn’t know how to tell him,” she said.

She said her son was hospitalised with mental health issues when he was eight and lockdown “brought it back”.

“We worked with therapists and one of the main things that we kept him focused on was basketball,” she said.

Meanwhile, in the City of Greater Geelong and the Surf Coast Shire, children's cricket and basketball games went ahead without any problems.  My 12 year old grandson (fully vaccinated) scored 26no.  My 9 year old grandson, in his first ever game of cricket, took 2 for 6 and made 6 runs.

I know the vaccination rates are pretty high down our way but it seems that the locals understand the rules for children's sport a little better than folk in the big smoke.  It's really not that hard to follow.

A friend's son vice-captained the U12 Vic Metro team that played Vic Country today.  While it's under 12, almost all of the players turned 12 this year and have to be vaccinated.  Not one of the eligible players, parents, officials was unvaccinated so perhaps most folk in the big smoke know the rules too  ::)

And, just what is our 14th Amendment? 

I suppose people with agendas need to stop using their children as political pawns, but I am not sure anything will change as it appears to me some have very little regard for their own children and family let alone the children or families of others.

I think there is a psychology term that describes this abusive indifference .................. but it escapes me!

A guy at work who is vaccinated and kids are vaccinated (12 and 15) gave up trying to get into JB hifi yesterday as he couldn't get their certificates up on his phone.

A guy at work who is vaccinated and kids are vaccinated (12 and 15) gave up trying to get into JB hifi yesterday as he couldn't get their certificates up on his phone.

Are you commenting on his techno literacy or the laws?

As I understand it the printed hardcopy is also acceptable, they have to accept the hardcopy because not everybody has a smart-phone. In the same way they provide a sign in book for those without the App.

fwiw, I had to go to a notorious hardware store over the weekend, it was mostly all going smoothly except for two elderly COVID deniers who were giving the people on the door grief refusing to check-in, refusing to sign-in or refusing to show a certificate, I presume they were not vaccinated, and demanding entry anyway! Somewhat ironic given they looked in their 70s and are probably right in the COVID gun, maybe they are pro-euthanasia and their behaviour is an assisted dying tactic!

Was supposed to go to Adelaide this Christmas but unlikely now as my kids (5 and 6) have to get two covid tests. One here a couple of days before and one when we get there. I don't really want to put them through it just to go there.

My mrs is starting a new job Jan 10.

Queensland is off the cards until they hit the 80% mark.

SA is similarly difficult as MBB is pointing out.

So, for us to have a decent getaway it leaves NSW, or chancing VIC and its notoriously skitsophrenic weather, but we both just want to go somewhere and chill out in some warm weather.

FWIW, one of my neighbours travelled to Sydney on business. 

When they check in somewhere, they are required to check out too.

They all had to wear masks on the plane.

COVID tests are mandatory before travel.

You still need permits to travel interstate and return it seems.

Freedom isnt what it used to be.

Freedom isnt what it used to be.

I can't help but feel that a lot of the participation in protests here and abroad is the result of being sold a furphy.

Too many politicians, bureaucrats and media types were selling people get vaccinated and get back to normal, but the new normal was never going to be like the old normal, at least not in the short term. Blind Freddy could see that!

My mrs is starting a new job Jan 10.

Queensland is off the cards until they hit the 80% mark.

SA is similarly difficult as MBB is pointing out.

So, for us to have a decent getaway it leaves NSW, or chancing VIC and its notoriously skitsophrenic weather, but we both just want to go somewhere and chill out in some warm weather.

FWIW, one of my neighbours travelled to Sydney on business. 

When they check in somewhere, they are required to check out too.

They all had to wear masks on the plane.

COVID tests are mandatory before travel.

You still need permits to travel interstate and return it seems.

Freedom isnt what it used to be.

The divided states of Australia, then you have Victoria which is divided itself.

I was planning to drive to Adelaide. Everyone needs a test within 72 hours of arriving in SA. If you have kids under 12 you need another test within 24 hrs of getting there because they're unvaccinated.

Rapid tests don't count and my eldest is still passed at me after his last covid test because I told him they will just tickle the inside of his nose. (That's what I was told). The nurse put it right up just like they do for adults. Then she acted offended because he screamed at her lol.

The divided states of Australia, then you have Victoria which is divided itself.

Get rid of the States.
Useless entities.

I can't help but feel that a lot of the participation in protests here and abroad is the result of being sold a furphy.

Too many politicians, bureaucrats and media types were selling people get vaccinated and get back to normal, but the new normal was never going to be like the old normal, at least not in the short term. Blind Freddy could see that!

It seems like a lot of overkill though.

I was planning to drive to Adelaide. Everyone needs a test within 72 hours of arriving in SA. If you have kids under 12 you need another test within 24 hrs of getting there because they're unvaccinated.

Rapid tests don't count and my eldest is still passed at me after his last covid test because I told him they will just tickle the inside of his nose. (That's what I was told). The nurse put it right up just like they do for adults. Then she acted offended because he screamed at her lol.

Folk I know who have had tests recently (including Mrs DJC, my daughter, son in law and grandsons aged 12, 9 and 6) reckon it was far less intrusive than the tests earlier in the piece.  Just a little tickle inside a nostril.

I saw this one coming straight after the Pandemic bill appeared and hit the air. Pauline Hanson with a vaccine discrimination bill. Banning discrimination from people who don’t get vaccinated. It didn’t do well in a Senate vote. Especially as it was a dig at the leader of the federal government that it was a target for. Jacqui Lambie had her say on the matter in not so many nice words.

Why is there a problem with vaccinated and unvaccinated people being in the same place at the same time? Doesn’t being vaccinated give you extra protection to prevent people needing to be in ICU if they get infected? Isn’t it there for maximum available protection? Why would an unvaccinated person be any more serious threat to me than a fully vaccinated person? Does this virus pick and chose a particular victim? I took the TB vaccine back in secondary school. I was told this respiratory illness was a serious danger. We had a test injection under our forearm a week before the vaccination was ready to be administered. A certain reaction under the skin was an indicator whether you were prone to suffer with the disease.

However it was your parents choice to let you take the vaccination or not. I did. The overall numbers vaccinated were not 80%. 50% at best. Most due to religious beliefs. Religion beliefs were big back then. Whether it be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox or other. I never remembered that unvaccinated children couldn’t mix with those that were vaccinated. Jab helped protect you. No jab didn’t. Your acceptance of a risk. Reason being that even a vaccinated person can carry a virus, bacterial infection, or other illnesses and be a carrier that shows little symptoms.

If this vaccine process works the way the government and medical professionals tell us it does, we should be safe in the community. Covid safe. They have shown us all the advertising on the TV that shows unvaccinated people on the brink of death. We don’t want that. No way, so we got jabbed. To have a way to work and support our restricted lifestyle for almost 2 years. Not seeing friends and family for a long time. We did it all and mental health hasn’t gone the way people would have hoped. Now I need to avoid unvaccinated people for what exact reason? We can spread the virus both ways. Germs travel the wrong way in a one way street. Not selective in a process of infecting people. That is what the government has told me. Many times over and over again. So why should I fear unvaccinated people? Why are they not allowed to do things vaccinated people can? Was it ever a choice or was it a way to keep huge pharmaceutical companies pumping up profits. Slipping backhanded kickbacks to the government in return as a thank you for your blackmailing efforts.

Australia was Australia. Soon to be Victoria, NSW, ACT, S.A, W.A, NT, Tasmania, QLD, and exactly what happened to a country once called Jugoslavia. Yugoslavia was a poor country with many hard striving athletes that had only one ticket in life to get them out of poverty. Due to war problems in the first and second world wars different government members of each so called states created divisions in the country. These divisions created a need to split a small country further. Setting up people against their own people. Eventually they country set up Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Bosnia Hercegovina, all being new countries now. It doesn’t work. They look at each other as enemies. I know many people that should be considered enemies but have boundaries only a few kilometres apart. Is that where we are heading?

We can’t find a common ground for the states to unite. We are dividing our opinions between close friends. We are dividing our opinions between family members. I am a person that can see this surely on or two if not more can see this happening in their life. I agree with a comment by Lods. Sorry to throw you under the bus buddy. States divide. Maybe we don’t need them. Maybe the federal government needs to find a way to unify the best country in the world. Otherwise let the country self dividing with state government playing every state against each other. On top of the jabbed against unjabbed. Maybe seperate people with different political views. Then seperate people on religious beliefs. Then the whole male, female, transgender, LBGXYZ I don’t know all the characters required so my apologies. When do we love our neighbor no matter what?

The billions wasted on the trash inhabiting state parliaments makes me sick.

Green Stick - love your post.

Ah, we humans are a complex creature. We seem to be still 'terrified' of those who are difference, too often demonized for being so.

'Real' leadership understands vision, courage, inclusivity, empathy and, as you (Green Stick) said, the ability to find common ground. We seem to have witnessed in our nation two extremes from our Federal and State leaders. SloMo/LNP with minimal/nebulous leadership and the states (perhaps well meaning) with a relentless autocracy.

Oh, and the breathtaking irony (hypocrisy?) from Pauline, the discrimination Queen, effectively pushing for an anti vaccine discrimination Bill. Just as well we Aussies are a resilient bunch.

Mantis , let me explain my objection to being in the same place at the same time as an unvaccinated person. 

My belief is that anyone still unvaccinated, for whatever reason, is very unlikely to get the jab any time soon.  Experience here and overseas has shown that when unvaccinated people catch Covid they either deny its existence or wait until they are quite ill before seeking medical assistance.  In the time they are infectious they present a clear danger to people in my age group.

My wife and I are in the senior citizen category and were double vaxxed in July.  In addition, my wife is a chronic asthmatic.  Our GP will give us a booster shot next January, but in the meantime our immunity to Covid is going down at a faster rate than for people in younger age groups. 

If restrictions are removed and unvaccinated people are allowed to wander around  in the community at will, then the elderly will be forced to self isolate in many instances to protect themselves.

As far as I am concerned I hope that Andrews keeps the restrictions on for as long as possible.  People who bludge on the vaccinated to keep Covid at bay should not be rewarded for their actions.



 

The divided states of Australia, then you have Victoria which is divided itself.

Im not a fan of any of what we are doing.  There seems to be a lot of common sense missing.  I have attended hospitals for almost every day of the pandemic and haven't gotten near a precautionary test, unless I was symptomatic and went to the drive through or said as much on my way in the door which prompted a visit to the clinic for testing.

Had I just lied, and told them I was fine, they would have taken my word for it, and been none the wiser.

Now, healthy and not symptomatic, I can't travel intersate without a negative test?  But I can attend a hospital for every day of the pandemic until I was fully vaccinated without precautionary testing, and being solely reactionary?

Its bonkers.

Makes no sense.

Its only a tickle in the nostril.  Why am I taking it though?  I can continue going into work with no test, why do I need one to travel?

Oh, and the breathtaking irony (hypocrisy?) from Pauline, the discrimination Queen, effectively pushing for an anti vaccine discrimination Bill. Just as well we Aussies are a resilient bunch.

@Baggers .... agree.  Reckon it's gone way pasty petty and now into some really nasty exchanges between people who can't possibly represent the opinions of their electorates.  Take that to read "on whose behalf are you speaking?"

Spoke to a nurse not more than an hour ago (Double dosed) who is dead against mandated  vaccinations.  I chose to not pry and ask her for the rationale.

Cap - one of my facebook friends who is a Kiwi, but living in Qld has a view that is very different to mine regarding general health matters, let alone vaccines.  She and her cronies will post every person that has a side effect, re-post about the 450k that protested in Melbourne (yep - 450k - not a possible number) and they are lauding Pauline at the moment re her discrimination bill.

They also vote.  It is really scary how little they know of how Australia legally works - Constitutionally, Government (why doesn't the PM just have the power to change this) down to how people are elected.

I know a couple of people in the medical fraternity who are dead against mandatory vaccination and sceptical of being vaccinated at all. I am fully vaccinated and I struggle to understand them, as it sounds like they are acting from a deep conviction rather than from any actual evidence evaluation or risk assessment.

@Baggers .... agree.  Reckon it's gone way pasty petty and now into some really nasty exchanges between people who can't possibly represent the opinions of their electorates.  Take that to read "on whose behalf are you speaking?" 

I suppose the electorates are divided, but perhaps not as divided as the minority wish you to believe!

I was quite surprised to see Scomo head-kicking some of his lackies who had been poking around the protests looking for an ear. Because isn't it really how he got into power in the first place, behaving the very way he now has developed a disdain for!

So the question is, how do you deal with politicians and public servants who play minority politics, when will they start representing the majority?

I know a couple of people in the medical fraternity who are dead against mandatory vaccination and sceptical of being vaccinated at all. I am fully vaccinated and I struggle to understand them, as it sounds like they are acting from a deep conviction rather than from any actual evidence evaluation or risk assessment.

If we start from the presumption that all health workers wish to "Do no harm", I can understand some are reticent. But is that concern misplaced, can the vaccine ever really do any more harm than Sars-CoV-2?

Is there also a perception of potential liability? I know a few who are very sceptical regarding to Scomo's moves to ensure health workers are protected from predatory lawyers, there are always loopholes and exceptions.

There are also worries that compulsory vaccination creates a more dangerous workplace, it is not hard to see why this would be the case, but is this also misplaced / misunderstood risk?

One of the scumbags opposing the Bill assaulted Andy Meddick's daughter and she ended up getting stitches in a headwound. 

Four days later and Andy Meddick has still not apologised for making up stories about the reason his daughter was attacked in the street.

But it doesn’t really matter because the Animal Justice Party MP has already done the damage – to unfairly smear those who oppose the pandemic Bill as violent thugs.

As we all know, Meddick claimed on Friday that after his daughter, Kielan, was taken to hospital with a gash on her head.

He had “reason to believe that this could be linked to my role as an MP and the positions I have taken on the pandemic response”.

Just one problem. Police believe she was graffitiing over a poster on Smith St in Fitzroy – hardly a hotbed of right-wing thought – when a man started an argument with her about it.

She threw her spray can at the man, police said, and he threw it back – hitting her head.

There is no doubt that no one should have a spray can hurled at the back of his or her head.

Nor should that person throw it at someone else in the first place.

But for the victim’s father to frame the attack in a political light before all the facts were known is unfortunate at best and misrepresentation for political gain at worst.

The Meddicks hoodwinked everyone from the Prime Minister down.

“This is not just an attack on an innocent person but an attack on our very democracy,” Scott Morrison wrote.

Opposition leader Matthew Guy said to “target an MP’s family in this way is sickening”.

By the time Meddick went on ABC radio on Friday afternoon to quietly walk back his earlier statement – without an apology for jumping the gun – the damage was done.

There has been a concerted effort from proponents of the pandemic Bill to cast all opponents and all the hundreds of thousands of people who have protested as violent extremists.

They do this by highlighting a handful of dopes and fringe-dwellers, such as those whole rolled our nooses and gallows, and attaching their moronic actions to the rest of the crowd.

Politicians, including Meddick, have also received personal threats – and they must be condemned in the strongest terms.

But to attach that behaviour to the broader group of normal Victorians who are concerned about giving the premier dictatorial power is a devious way to silence their arguments.

A supposedly political attack on Meddick’s daughter was the transition from threats to physical violence – and thus great fuel to the fire for proponents of the Bill.

How many people would recognise Meddick in the street, let alone his daughter?

He should have been more worried that his daughter recovering than he was about the supposed motivation of the attack.

She shouldn’t have been assaulted and his father shouldn’t have been putting out media releases saying he was the reason behind it.

He, regrettably, made this a political issue.

But if this isn’t about politics, that apology should be forthcoming.

.... and the toll on all of us continues

I know a couple of people in the medical fraternity who are dead against mandatory vaccination and sceptical of being vaccinated at all. I am fully vaccinated and I struggle to understand them, as it sounds like they are acting from a deep conviction rather than from any actual evidence evaluation or risk assessment.

I think its tricky to know unless you get up close and personal with how these places actually operate (particularly during the pandemic).

As someone who has worked at 2 different health services in Melbourne, and has seen the nature of how these places are governed, what happens in regards to accreditation, their requirements, and the mountain of work that people go through to tick the boxes at the final moments, rather than implementing proper processes to meet those requirements more frequently, it starts to become clearer.

That and the fact that people seem to think that the political and CHO response is above criticism.  Its entirely possible that not everyone in the medical fraternity is in agreement from top to bottom, and some of these people possibly know more than the lay person.

I decided a long time ago, that I dont know enough about all of this to really have a good grasp on whats required or not, and one thing I did realise, that if people in the know are skeptical, then people outside of the know, have every right to be which tells a story in itself.

Are things happening in the public goods best interest or not, seems to be subjective, which is a worry of itself.

@Thry

We live in an age of propaganda, fake news, double speak and downright lies. Getting at the truth is often not that easy.

@Thry

We live in an age of propaganda, fake news, double speak and downright lies. Getting at the truth is often not that easy.

Then you add in confirmation bias and motivated reasoning and all sorts of weird shizen seems to fall into place for those susceptible to influence, which is basically all of us in one forum or another!

It's tough has hell for anybody to find the absolute truth, but what you can do far more easily and often just by some careful consideration, is find out what isn't the truth!

Then you add in confirmation bias and motivated reasoning and all sorts of weird shizen seems to fall into place for those susceptible to influence, which is basically all of us in one forum or another!

It's tough has hell for anybody to find the absolute truth, but what you can do far more easily and often just by some careful consideration, is find out what isn't the truth!

While we’re  doing that we just have to be careful the truth doesn’t come and bite us on the ar$e.

Truth. ::)
Insert Col. Jessup speech here. ;)  ;D

The problem with the pandemic is that the usual rules have gone out the window.
And I don't think they're coming back.
It's changed us all in ways we probably don't realise just yet.
Normally reasonable folks  have become zealots...and that's on both sides of the debate.
Tolerance and understanding of the beliefs of others have morphed into black and white.
"You're either 'with us or against us', and don't bother explaining why you've taken the course of getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated, because I'm not interested".

Conspiracy theories abound and like minded folk seek comfort and support with those who think the same way.
Opportunist politicians are falling over themselves to attract support from a range of extreme views.
The usual suspects are out in force.

State premiers are building their own little fiefdoms based on separating themselves from the rest of the country.
Elections are being won on the basis of such isolation.

It's obvious vaccinations are having a positive impact but they're not the 100% answer, and transmission seems to be spiking again in the North.
Could it lead to a new variant?
...and would a new vaccine resistant variant render vaccinations as useless as tits on a bull?

I'm not sure it is such an easy task to separate fact from fiction.
You can find whatever you want on the internet, and for most folks determining the 'good and the bad' information is not an easy task.
A lot of folks don't know their 'Mayo clinic' from their 'lettuce and mayo' sandwich.

We can only operate at best with the most recent advice.
But that's only ever the 'best advice at the time.'
And you have to think that in with the best medical advice there are decisions that are made by leaders with one eye on the politics.
For the moment the advice is  get vaccinated, but still maintain all the usual safety measures.
It's possible though that a in a few months there will be anti-virals that render the vaccination a less important factor in the fight.

If we think we know 'fck everything' about this virus, the truth is we actually know 'fck all' about where it will finish up down the track.

Another classic post @Lods :)

Well said Lods. The more we think we have seen, heard or read, the less we actually understand. We think we do but we probably don’t. This along with the agenda based choices offered by the politicians in power that drives people against people. Vaccinated vs unvaccinated, State vs state, friends and families having conflicts over opinions. Bills that are shoved or an attempt to shove them through the Senate, lower house, upper house etc. State and federal government on completely different pages of the story. How is this a theory that we are all in this together? Walk in my Kmart $30 shoes instead of some Italian made $300 shoes and then we are in this thing together. Not to forget wage differences. All this aside, the government will continue to feed the masses with their medical research, statistics, and advice based on needs of health and well-being for all in the community. Divisions will continue to grow in the community. We could see what happens in countries in Europe when protesting goes pear shaped. I hope it never happens here, but it eventually could. People should never fight against their own. It is un-Australian. Isn’t that a term Scomo used against toilet paper hoarders? What a stupid problem that was as an experience. Toilet paper shortage on supermarket shelves. Never ever thought I would see that problem coming.

Stick with the science and math while ignoring opinion, it's the subjectivity of humans that leads people astray not the laws of nature!

It's no accident the most confronting and confusing debates around the pandemic are built on politicians and lawyers.

One look at Germany should be enough ... deaths spiralling and over 30% unvaccinated.

One look at Germany should be enough ... deaths spiralling and over 30% unvaccinated.

Brazil, India, Cairo, Sth Africa, Turkey, etc., etc., etc..

All locations subject to whacko laws, dodgy corporate dealings and unfounded social media frenzy, I see the distrust over some of the pandemic legislation as just another foible of human society. Fundamentally, what is being asked for by the protestors, is the right to continue to do whatever the like whenever they like while putting others at risk! They do so because a very very small part of the legislation is potentially untested and a risk to some liberty, so they want the whole lot discarded. Can we paint them by the same rule of thumb?

Germany is peculiar, given it still has a very high percentage of youth who now self describe as socialists(I suppose if you go back 80 years and they would be fascists), some of whom also want the Nazis reframed as a socialist movement. I mentioned before there is a horrendous undercurrent in the anti-vax movement to paint distrust in vaccines throughout the 3rd world, because they want them to suffer. I suspect to remain consistent with that strategy they also have to preserve the freedom to spread the virus. Perhaps they see themselves as the fittest survivor! Do they think Cortés is a hero for spreading the smallpox through the new world?

Brazil, India, Cairo, Sth Africa, Turkey, etc., etc., etc..

If we're to believe the numbers, Germany has exploded, the others you mentioned have most certainly not.  In fact the reverse.

If we're to believe the numbers, Germany has exploded, the others you mentioned have most certainly not.  In fact the reverse.

It's the same series of pandemic events happening at different times at different locations, not all 'happening now' is the same!

The virus and it's remedies are slow moving messages that flow around the globe at walking pace occasionally jumping ahead of their natural progress courtesy of a plane flight or a bus ride!

An interesting observation I've heard about the pandemic laws being introduced around the country, ignoring the fact they should be Federal and not State based.

The pandemic laws are framed in the context of what might need to happen if we had no vaccines and no remedies, while the protests frame an argument in relation to an environment that is a result of vaccines and remedies.

The protests basically use the resulting success of vaccines and remedies to argue we don't need vaccines and remedies.

An interesting observation I've heard about the pandemic laws being introduced around the country, ignoring the fact they should be Federal and not State based.

The pandemic laws are framed in the context of what might need to happen if we had no vaccines and no remedies, while the protests frame an argument in relation to an environment that is a result of vaccines and remedies.

The protests basically use the resulting success of vaccines and remedies to argue we don't need vaccines and remedies.

The Pandemic laws are State-based since it is the State Governments that control the on-the-ground health systems.  And therein lies a fundamental problem we have with healthcare in this country - we pay the Feds via Medicare taxation, who then (supposedly) distribute it to the various State coffers.  All it does is offer the two levels of Government the chance to blame each other for the times where our healthcare system falls short.

Germany is peculiar, given it still has a very high percentage of youth who now self describe as socialists(I suppose if you go back 80 years and they would be fascists), some of whom also want the Nazis reframed as a socialist movement.

The Nazi's were the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Many people at that time would have described themselves as socialists - the nationalist variety.

I mentioned before there is a horrendous undercurrent in the anti-vax movement to paint distrust in vaccines throughout the 3rd world, because they want them to suffer.

Where is there ANY evidence of this? You are borderline mad. If you are wondering who the 'nutters' are LP - take a look in the mirror.

Where is there ANY evidence of this? You are borderline mad. If you are wondering who the 'nutters' are LP - take a look in the mirror.

The protestors in Melbourne wearing fascist labels was a start locally, but I'm not referring just to local protestors.

Globally, there are threats of beheading or violence against the families of bureaucrats and health officials as well as politicians. Politicians sort of expect this, and authorities take measures to protect them like having a blacklisted address, here in Oz not even local police know who lives at a politicians private address! But Joe Average health worker or invoice stamper doesn't need to feel threatened just for going to work.

I suppose it is reasonable, after all it's not like they go around blowing people up or mowing them down with trucks and vans is it, so why would they see a virus as a weapon? I'm sure it's reasonable to think such ideology is beyond extremists!

For me the real issue the protestors need to look at is not the new laws, but that the new laws are the cheap-ar5e economic surrogate solution to being proactive and preparing for the next pandemic, as they should have been doing from about 18 years ago when SARS emerged! Scientists warned them back then, and they are warning them again now, but it's new laws not funding for real preventative and planning actions!

You can just read the writing on the wall, they'll get the new laws through and the issue will be dead and buried, along with a bunch of people next pandemic!

Not sure you can put anti vaxxer's and anti "the Andrews Bill" in the same basket, there are plenty of double vaxxed citizens who dont want that Bill passed and see no need for it..
I'd be forgetting about Nazi's and fascists and looking at our far Northern communist neighbors who like to squash people with tanks, make people disappear, bully smaller countries and feck around with bats in labs and are the types to see a virus as a weapon. The main threat to Joe average health workers is the below average State Government especially the one I live in...the one where promised beds/staff/equipment never materialize and where the set aside money disappears quicker than a Chinese Doctor wanting to tell the truth about CoVid origins..

Not sure you can put anti vaxxer's and anti "the Andrews Bill" in the same basket, there are plenty of double vaxxed citizens who dont want that Bill passed and see no need for it..
I'd be forgetting about Nazi's and fascists and looking at our far Northern communist neighbors who like to squash people with tanks, make people disappear, bully smaller countries and feck around with bats in labs and are the types to see a virus as a weapon. The main threat to Joe average health workers is the below average State Government especially the one I live in...the one where promised beds/staff/equipment never materialize and where the set aside money disappears quicker than a Chinese Doctor wanting to tell the truth about CoVid origins..

It's extremists that often drive the narrative in any frame of reference, social extremists, military extremists, economic extremists, political extremists and religious extremists. The squeaky wheel!

There are plenty of Joe Averages on all sides of this debate, nobody has asserted it's one in all in, the protestors and anti-vaxers are as diverse as the rest of us, but the majority are not the ones you need to worry about! ;)

Trying to assert the extremists somehow do not exist because they are mostly invisible amongst the majority is almost a wilful or blissful ignorance. I suppose the thought is what harm can one or two really do?

Yet I suppose many of the same claiming it is all is good amongst the protestors will also subscribe to the Wuhan Lab Leak hypothesis, which would have been just one or two scientists, one or two politicians and / or one or two officers! :o

Not sure you can put anti vaxxer's and anti "the Andrews Bill" in the same basket, there are plenty of double vaxxed citizens who dont want that Bill passed and see no need for it..
I'd be forgetting about Nazi's and fascists and looking at our far Northern communist neighbors who like to squash people with tanks, make people disappear, bully smaller countries and feck around with bats in labs and are the types to see a virus as a weapon. The main threat to Joe average health workers is the below average State Government especially the one I live in...the one where promised beds/staff/equipment never materialize and where the set aside money disappears quicker than a Chinese Doctor wanting to tell the truth about CoVid origins..

Nicely put EB :) 

My former colleagues working in the city tell me that many of the protesters are waving US flags (why?) and several are carrying signs denouncing pedofiles (sic) so clearly QAnon loonies. Then there's the photograph of the airhead protesting about the proposed legislation being contrary to the 14th amendment  ::)

Of course, many people are genuinely concerned about the lack of parliamentary oversight for the proposed pandemic powers but they're not the folk abusing people for wearing masks, waving US flags, promoting QAnon garbage and confusing our political system with that of the USA.

My former colleagues working in the city tell me that many of the protesters are waving US flags (why?) and several are carrying signs denouncing pedofiles (sic) so clearly QAnon loonies. Then there's the photograph of the airhead protesting about the proposed legislation being contrary to the 14th amendment  ::)

Of course, many people are genuinely concerned about the lack of parliamentary oversight for the proposed pandemic powers but they're not the folk abusing people for wearing masks, waving US flags, promoting QAnon garbage and confusing our political system with that of the USA.

....not to mention the never-ending stream of people who wear Trump supporter gear.  What the.....?

Do these extremist nutters define the crowd though.
(just asking , because I'm really not sure given the media coverage of these events.)
Are they the majority or driving force.
or
is it a bit like a BLM protest where folks focus on a few destructive rioters to derail a right to protest.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that given we'll probably finish up with about a 95% vacc coverage... are we giving too much attention and focus to what will be an insignificant amount of extremists.
They'll be revelling in that  ::)

Do these extremist nutters define the crowd though.
(just asking , because I'm really not sure given the media coverage of these events.)
Are they the majority or driving force.
or
is it a bit like a BLM protest where folks focus on a few destructive rioters to derail a right to protest.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that given we'll probably finish up with about a 95% vacc coverage... are we giving too much attention and focus to what will be an insignificant amount of extremists.
They'll be revelling in that  ::)

I dont understand how these people are nutters, and the BLM rioters were vindicated.

Both groups have a right to protest, whether you agree or disagree.

Beyond that, the loudest voices are often minorities these days. 

The Nazi's were the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Many people at that time would have described themselves as socialists - the nationalist variety.

Surely you're joking ...

From Wikipedia:

The Nazi Party,[a] officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (b) or NSDAP), was a far-right[7][8] political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920. The Nazi Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany.[9] The party was created to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[10] Initially, Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric. This was later downplayed to gain the support of business leaders, and in the 1930s the party's main focus shifted to antisemitic and anti-Marxist themes.[11]

There was never anything socialist about the Nazi Party: it was just a bait-and-switch tactic. The communists, socialists, and unions were the opposition Hitler was seeking to outmanoeuvre. It's amazing that such an obvious con is still working today. Far right policitians over in the US like Marjorie Taylor Greene are still claiming the Nazis were socialists even as we speak.

Let's put this simply: the Nazis were far right and socialists are on the left, and never the twain shall meet.

I dont understand how these people are nutters, and the BLM rioters were vindicated.

I'm talking about the extreme points of view in both types of demonstrations.
There are always those who attach themselves to these protests just to cause trouble and strife.
Not all protesters are the same, with the same convictions to the cause.
Some are just nutters.

The concern in this situation are that 'all protesters' at that rally are then grouped as being of a like mind (and action).

The concern in this situation are that 'all protesters' at that rally are then grouped as being of a like mind (and action).

I don't think anybody has asserted that, it is a generalisation of the reader not the author, it's no different to not everyone who boos Goodes being racist.

It is usually those who generalise that have some barrow to push, and I suspect the extremists will assert everyone standing around them is a supporter, but nothing is further from the truth because in fact the extremists hide in the populous they are not part of it!

Let's put this simply: the Nazis were far right and socialists are on the left, and never the twain shall meet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

The Nazi's were the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Many people at that time would have described themselves as socialists - the nationalist variety.

Where is there ANY evidence of this? You are borderline mad. If you are wondering who the 'nutters' are LP - take a look in the mirror.

The right needs to stop falsely claiming that the Nazis were socialists
...

Instead of controlling the means of production or redistributing wealth to build a utopian society, the Nazis focused on safeguarding a social and racial hierarchy. They promised solidarity for members of the Volksgemeinschaft (“racial community”) even as they denied rights to those outside the charmed circle.

Additionally, while the Nazis tried to appeal to voters across the spectrum, the party’s founders and initial base were small-business men and artisans, not the industrial proletariat of Marxist lore. Their first notable electoral successes were in small towns and Protestant rural areas in present-day Thuringia and Saxony, among voters suspicious of cosmopolitan, secular cities who associated both “socialism” and “capitalism” with Jews and foreigners.

Read more here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/

Anyone who claims that Nazis were socialists needs to learn the basics of European 20th century history paying particular attention to the role of the Social Democratic Party as the only German political party that consistently resisted Nazism.

One of the problems is that rightwingers happily lump socialism in with communism. If I were to use this sort of approach, I'd say conservatives are fascists. Democratic socialists operate within the electoral system. On the other hand, the Republicans in the US have chosen to fall in behind an anti-democratic autocrat who wants to become a dictator in an essentially 1 party nation.  

The ALP is hardly a totalitarian party, but one of its factions is known as the Socialist Left. It hasn't even seized control of the ALP let alone the country.

I don't think anybody has asserted that, it is a generalisation of the reader not the author, it's no different to not everyone who boos Goodes being racist.

I wasn't necessarily speaking of the comments on this forum...but the idea that all anti vaxxers are of a like or similar cut is something that's being expressed by some folks in the community.

Perhaps my comment would have been better put like this...

The concern in this situation are that 'all protesters' at that rally are then grouped 'by some' as being of a like mind (and action).

It was a generalisation  by omission on my part.
But that's the problem.
When writing only we know our own intent.
If we leave something unclear, or focus too much on one aspect, it opens it up to the interpretation of the listener or reader.

Just what is the makeup of pandemic protesters?
After some posts regarding the strong American influence I thought I'd have a look at some of the coverage and pay a bit more attention. I had a look at several news reports.

Now it's very much dependent on what vision the TV channels chose to 'shoot and show' so it's really just a snapshot, but a couple of things stood out.

Quite a few of the 'fascists' were carrying anti fascist posters so obviously they don't regard themselves as right wing extremists

A perhaps disturbing element down the track, and perhaps more concerning than any American flag, was the number of Red Ensigns. It appears this is the 'flag of the month' for some right thinking folk. So there is no doubt there is that element to the protesters
I saw two American flags but one was tied  to the same pole as an Australian flag.

But there were also the flags of
Poland
Greece
Italy
Croatia
UK
Cyprus

The Aboriginal flag
The Eureka flag
...and a boxing Kangaroo

Good luck working that out

I saw two American flags but one was tied  to the same pole as an Australian flag.

But there were also the flags of
Poland
Greece
Italy
Croatia
UK
Cyprus

The Aboriginal flag
The Eureka flag
...and a boxing Kangaroo

Good luck working that out

The protesters are often quoted as saying 'the majority of people believe this, or don't want that.........'

Even when there are 'many thousands' in the marches, it still represents a significant minority of the whole population.  By having a widespread collection of symbols that everyone can recognise, it attempts to persuade the rest of us that their movement does represent a far larger proportion of society.  In reality, the only link to most of these symbols is that bearer happened to have one in the drawer at home, or popped down to Carroll & Richardson to buy one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

I love this.

The extremes behave the same.

So much so I believe they are over compensating for themselves and their unwavering belief in their political ideology.  They cannot accept that it has flaws, ergo are militant in the application and questioning of their rules.

Surely you're joking ...

From Wikipedia:
There was never anything socialist about the Nazi Party: it was just a bait-and-switch tactic. The communists, socialists, and unions were the opposition Hitler was seeking to outmanoeuvre. It's amazing that such an obvious con is still working today. Far right policitians over in the US like Marjorie Taylor Greene are still claiming the Nazis were socialists even as we speak.

Let's put this simply: the Nazis were far right and socialists are on the left, and never the twain shall meet.

HAHAHAHAHA - just rubbish and YOU KNOW IT. Rewrite history all you want - it happened. Ordinary people were complicit and many did identify as socialists - do not try to paint over this.

HAHAHAHAHA - just rubbish and YOU KNOW IT. Rewrite history all you want - it happened. Ordinary people were complicit and many did identify as socialists - do not try to paint over this.

I suspect this is fundamentally a case of semantic ambiguity, polysemy or lexical ambiguity. I do not speak the languages of the time, critics would have to be very careful in the translation, so as such historians might revert to descriptions of behaviour over issuing a label.

It may be very wrong to assume that the meaning of the words remains consistent across all contexts and era's, a common topic of debate in philosophical circles. If I called you a gay chap in the 1930s it means something very different to that same label now! If I called you a nationalist in Appalachia, it means something very different to the same label in Tibet!

Also, should we put much weight on any self-designation, especially given such designations might be relative to other phenomenon current at the time?

The extremes behave the same.

Yes this is true, but you'll find the idea that polar opposites can behave similarly and as badly as each other has a lot of opposition in mainstream culture.

Also, just because they behave in a similar fashion doesn't mean that the underlying beliefs are the same, but I suppose that can be very deeply debated.

I read today that Scomo is watching over the ICAC and going into bat for Burythemall in parliament. 

People are complaining about Dan's Pandemic Bill, it sounds like the NSW version is even worse and probably bans abortion as part of the deal!

HAHAHAHAHA - just rubbish and YOU KNOW IT. Rewrite history all you want - it happened. Ordinary people were complicit and many did identify as socialists - do not try to paint over this.

Your tactic of boldly declaring that anyone who disagrees with you really knows that you are right is pretty weak. Try to read a bit of history. You'll find the Social Democratic Party stood against Hitler while just about every other party, including the Communist Party, played footsie with Hitler at various stages. The conservative parties thought they could control and use him. The Communists, as ordered by Moscow, refused to work with the Social Democratic Party because they wanted to destroy any moderate workers' party. The Centre Party was more interested in protecting religious freedom. The SPD was the only party that voted against the Enabling Act which gave the Nazis control of the government. The SPD was then banned and many of its members were jailed, sent to concentration camps, or went into exile. Trade Unions were also abolished and collective bargaining was banned.

The Social Democrats were more like the ALP than a textbook socialist party: they were more of a trade union party. It was down to around 20% of the vote when it was banned. It may well be that many blue collar workers were attracted to Hitler in the same way that many became Trump voters in 2016 & 2020, but that's the thing about individual voting rather than bloc voting. Individuals may have a range of priorities which mean they become swing voters. But whether those who traditionally would have supported the SPD would have identified as socialists after they started supporting Hitler is highly questionable just as it's highly unlikely any blue collar workers who switched their support to Trump would have done so while regarding themselves as socialists (other than Bernie Bros who may have wanted to punish the Democratic Party for preferring Hillary as the Presidential Candidate).

One of the problems is that socialism is hard to pin down in any event. Does it involve the government owning all the means of production? Or does it involve the government owning some key businesses in order to exert influence over private businesses, such as when Telstra and the Commonwealth Bank were owned by the Government. Or does it involve the government regulating businesses to limit the excesses of rampant capitalism? Or does it merely involve seeking to redistribute wealth to some extent to ensure fairness to the poor and passing legislation to ensure social justice? Or does it just mean being a bit more progressive than the centrists in a left-wing party? The term is basically nebulous as is apparent from the attempts conservative politicians make to paint every opponent as a socialist.  

My favourite sign being wielded at the protests reads, "This is insanity".  Nailed an own goal  :)

Yes this is true, but you'll find the idea that polar opposites can behave similarly and as badly as each other has a lot of opposition in mainstream culture.

Also, just because they behave in a similar fashion doesn't mean that the underlying beliefs are the same, but I suppose that can be very deeply debated.

Both extremes have a deep seeded belief that they are correct, know better, and are doing what they believe are in societies best interests using the same autocratic means.

The intention is quite irrelevant when you see it like that.  There are plenty of examples of socialism gone bad.

Star wars taught me a lot about this.  Balance in the force is required.  Too much of one just leads to a different set of people being discriminated against.

Both extremes have a deep seeded belief that they are correct, know better, and are doing what they believe are in societies best interests using the same autocratic means.

The intention is quite irrelevant when you see it like that.  There are plenty of examples of socialism gone bad.

Star wars taught me a lot about this.  Balance in the force is required.  Too much of one just leads to a different set of people being discriminated against.

Extremists in any endeavour or field are often a threat to society's wellbeing.  I think that you may be overly generous in stating that political extremists' actions are motivated by society's best interests.  I reckon self-interest, self-preservation, ideology and cronyism are probably more likely motivators.

Extremists in any endeavour or field are often a threat to society's wellbeing.  I think that you may be overly generous in stating that political extremists' actions are motivated by society's best interests.  I reckon self-interest, self-preservation, ideology and cronyism are probably more likely motivators.

I suppose in my lack of empathy I'd bet on some degree of psychopathy or sociopathy!

I get that some individuals may think they have the inside running on the reality, and are warning the world of impending doom, which seems somewhat ironic! Maybe I'm the same, but at least I try to do my best to avoid magical thinking.

Gravy for the mind!

Extremists in any endeavour or field are often a threat to society's wellbeing.  I think that you may be overly generous in stating that political extremists' actions are motivated by society's best interests.  I reckon self-interest, self-preservation, ideology and cronyism are probably more likely motivators.

No, I said what they think is in societies best interests.

Have another read Djc. 

You'll see my post is well thought out.  Types like lenin, stalin, pol pot, Hitler, mao, kim jong un, all act in their opinion of the greater good.  It doesn't make it right, but its a warning sign when the leader shuts down a building industry for two weeks as punishment to the few who protested against vaccine mandates.

That was in the public good right?  Even those builders who did the right thing, rolled their sleeves up and got jabbed.

You'll quickly see that its a slippery slope to despotism, and autocratic legislation is usually what takes you there (look at the pandemic bill again).

No, I said what they think is in societies best interests.

But even that is debatable @Thryleon‍.

You can look up Kantian versus Care Ethics in the context of Moral Philosophy, the answer is not black and white, not an absolute, and it's not necessarily about right or wrong.

Which is why I always try to look at the frame of reference first, I suppose it's a side-effect of studying relativity years ago!

What we better look up is the new strain coming out of Africa.  Puts so called climate change into the irrelevance it is as a global necessity.  Well Grandpa Xi?      

Maybe Ivermectin will finally work on this new variant. After all, it's the perfect timing for a Xmas miracle.

Interesting to see the MO - FR trends for deaths in the U.S.  Normally 1000+

Yesterday?  306. Why?  No doubt Thanksgiving

Puts so called climate change into the irrelevance it is as a global necessity.

Actually, there are potential strong links between the rise of a potential pandemic style virus and climate change, as well as an increase in potential deadly bacterial or fungal infections.

Basically the assertion is that changes in micro-climate alter the behaviour and range of animals, which changes the overlap between wild animals, livestock and humans, and as such the mix of contagions intermingling between species will change. Given enough exposure zoonosis is likely. A real world example might be the Crown of Thorns Starfish spreading widely and invading the Great Barrier Reef and now heading further and further south.

Also the change in micro-climate allows some virus, bacteria and fungi to persist longer in environments from which they would have been almost foreign in the past!

On the Lab Leak / Gain of Function hypothesis it looks to be dead and buried now, the latest research identifies a specific Wuhan Wet Market Wild Meat trader as the first case, even so China's protectionism or indifference over the trillion dollar wild meat trade is a massive contributing factor.

Finally, the WHO warned the global governments about this new variant regardless of where it comes from, if we aren't all safe and protected then none of us are safe.

I don't see any point in Gilding a Lily on this, but celebrate your freedoms while you can as it's likely not going to last!

What we better look up is the new strain coming out of Africa.  Puts so called climate change into the irrelevance it is as a global necessity.  Well Grandpa Xi?      

The Greeks or those that are familiar with the Greek language and Monty Python will understand this and giggle more than everyone else (this variant if it is decided to be new, will be call NU which sounds more like this).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIV4poUZAQo

Heard the great news today which could be the beginning of things we wished wouldn’t happen. Rod Barton an back bench member of the upper house has agreed to vote for the pandemic management bill with 6 amendments. This will give Dan Andrews the numbers he needs to have the bill voted in and become the new legislation he was looking for. Especially considering the 15th of December was the end of the current state of emergency. Of more interest Dan announced at an interview that this bill was exactly what we need to protect the people and be safe with the new Omicron strain. “We are not out of the woods just yet, and this is not over yet”. Thank you Dan. I thought you stated the best way to live with this virus was with a high vaccination rate. We gave you that with over 90% fully vaccinated people. You stated we would not see more lockdowns or masks in the long term. We wouldn’t see other restrictions of movement.

Why exactly have you now got this bill ready to vote in by Wednesday or Thursday? What special protection mechanism is in the new bill that we haven’t already seen? I always suspected he would let us enjoy Christmas as a gift from him. A way to win some popularity from the community. Then wait for 2022. He will instruct this new emergency state. Enforce new restrictions, and what ever he chooses. Letting us know it was voted in, and is in the bill. He didn’t force this on the people on his own. It needs to be in place because of the Omicron strain to protect us. Then he will blame the reason the strain is in the country, on the federal government for letting people from overseas come here with this new strain.

Yet this strain is not new to the medical professionals. It has been around for a while. Just not advertised to all the public. How is the Federal and State governments on a different page almost all the time? Can they not see what this will do the enrage further public protesting? How will they deal with situations? Will it border lines on human and civil rights and liberties? How much duty of care for individual health and well-being will see further mental health issues? Why were we all vaccinated again?

Matthew Guy rang me yesterday to let me know he will do everything in his power to remove this new pandemic management bill when he is elected into parliament as a Premier. Thanks Matt, but that is nearly a year away. You still need to get a vote to remove it from legislation, if you have the numbers to do so. I am not against these bills. Just need some common sense that doesn’t allow a leader to abuse their powers. This is definitely a case with this bill and Dan Andrews. Get ready for and interesting start to 2022 guys. If not earlier.

V for Vendetta all over him

The Pandemic bill will be passed tomorrow with new safeguards.  The amended bill now has the support of the Ombudsman and the Human Rights Law Centre, Law Institute of Victoria and Centre for Public Integrity all generally agreed that the bill was worth supporting.

Paul Hayes, QC and Victorian Bar president Roisin Annesley, QC, both still have concerns about the bill. They both said judges and magistrates should review detention orders rather than a detention appeals panel, but I think that's more about protecting turf.   I'd rather have public health experts making decision about public health issues.

Interestingly, two party preferred support for the Andrews Government is just under 60%, and that's over 2% higher than the vote at the last State election.  63.5% of Victorian electors approve of the way Andrews is handling his job, up 3% points from mid-November 2021.  Matthew Guy will be hard-pressed to retain the leadership of the Liberal Party, let alone repeal legislation.  In addition, 76% of Victorians agree that an employed worker in Victoria should not be allowed to enter their employer’s workplace unless fully vaccinated (Figures from Roy Morgan).

As an aside, Roy Morgan conducted an interesting analysis of CBD protestors based on geo-fenced mobile device data.  It's at https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8864-roy-morgan-ubermedia-melbourne-pandemic-vaccine-protests-november-2021-202111300446

Good news that the Bill has been passed. Expect it to be a model for other States now.

Any suggestions from Matthew Guy that it will be repealed if the Liberals get in is a bad faith promise. For a start, it's easy to promise the world if you're likely to lose the forthcoming election. But even if they win, the Liberals would still need to obtain the support of crossbenchers to ensure its repeal. And even if all that happens, the legislation is machinery that only comes into play if there's a pandemic or the like. The Liberals could repeal it but then pass it again if circumstances demand as Labor would join with the Liberals in the LC to ensure its passage. Guy making a promise to repeal the legislation is the equivalent of someone making a promise to someone while crossing his fingers behind his back. 

Good news that the Bill has been passed. Expect it to be a model for other States now.

Any suggestions from Matthew Guy that it will be repealed if the Liberals get in is a bad faith promise. For a start, it's easy to promise the world if you're likely to lose the forthcoming election. But even if they win, the Liberals would still need to obtain the support of crossbenchers to ensure its repeal. And even if all that happens, the legislation is machinery that only comes into play if there's a pandemic or the like. The Liberals could repeal it but then pass it again if circumstances demand as Labor would join with the Liberals in the LC to ensure its passage. Guy making a promise to repeal the legislation is the equivalent of someone making a promise to someone while crossing his fingers behind his back. 

Matthew Guy was Minister for Planning in my department and, from my experience, integrity is not his strong point. 

Whatever happened to East West Link?

Whatever happened to East West Link?

Comrade Andrews scuttled that project.....the other Guy has said he will build it if elected and ScoMo has promised some money to help him but I dont see it happening.
Andrews is too busy building his iron curtain regime to worry about building roads......his pandemic bill safe guards dont mean anything if he has the numbers in Parliament.

Whatever happened to East West Link?

The electorate voted against it ... twice!

An American televangelist accused of broadcasting COVID-19 vaccine disinformation in Australia has died, weeks after contracting the virus.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-02/daystar-marcus-lamb-covid-death/100669238?utm_medium=social&utm_content=sf251684796&utm_campaign=fb_abc_news&utm_source=m.facebook.com&sf251684796=1&fbclid=IwAR2M_kMIlJmP-JO7dJIqimPkJH-7BD2arfj-KtEZzIxvNUzfN3Z4dha3NcI

As one of my American colleagues was fond of saying, "My heart bleeds purple panther p1ss."

Comrade Andrews scuttled that project.....the other Guy has said he will build it if elected and ScoMo has promised some money to help him but I dont see it happening.
Andrews is too busy building his iron curtain regime to worry about building roads......his pandemic bill safe guards dont mean anything if he has the numbers in Parliament.

You do realise that the North East Link Project is the biggest road building project ever undertaken in Victoria?  And then there's the level crossing removal project  Both progressing well despite COVID. 

Even Dan Andrews realises that the Coalition will inevitably return to power in Victoria in the next decade or so.  Why on earth would he pass legislation that would give the Coalition unfettered powers?  The Pandemic Management (soon to be) Act establishes oversight by a Parliamentary committee with the Government having minority representation.

You do realise that the North East Link Project is the biggest road building project ever undertaken in Victoria?  And then there's the level crossing removal project  Both progressing well despite COVID. 

Even Dan Andrews realises that the Coalition will inevitably return to power in Victoria in the next decade or so.  Why on earth would he pass legislation that would give the Coalition unfettered powers?  The Pandemic Management (soon to be) Act establishes oversight by a Parliamentary committee with the Government having minority representation.

Nth East Link is 6.5 billion over budget, Westgate Tunnel is 3.3 Billion over budget.
That's a lot of hospitals....

Nth East Link is 6.5 billion over budget, Westgate Tunnel is 3.3 Billion over budget.
That's a lot of hospitals....

The new hospital is 300% over budget and rising!

Material and time cost $, materials up 240%, freight up 300%, lead times blow out 300%.

Comrade Andrews scuttled that project.....the other Guy has said he will build it if elected and ScoMo has promised some money to help him but I dont see it happening.
Andrews is too busy building his iron curtain regime to worry about building roads......his pandemic bill safe guards dont mean anything if he has the numbers in Parliament.

Only cost Victorians a billion dollars in breaking the contract !!

The new hospital is 300% over budget and rising!

Material and time cost $, materials up 240%, freight up 300%, lead times blow out 300%.

A "look over there" argument. 

Do not be fooled people that this bill is great. It might be better than the existing state of emergency. It might be a better or in reality, a watered down version of Dan Andrews insane bill he constructed. For more than 6 months. I don’t remember him getting input from the entire upper and lower house members to get a great plan in place. Over this entire period where he used specific solicitors to word the clauses to suit his needs of interpretation. It may be way better now and only because he almost lost it entirely once Adem Somyurek decided he wasn’t going to back it and create a tie in overall votes. He had to swing Rod Barton to get the numbers and only if half a dozen key clauses were changed, to get him to accept the bill. We really are not certain what other reasons changed the opinion of Rod. Money, benefits, etc.

Just sounds funny to me that everything was so urgent to get this bill in place soon. Sorry I forget one important note. State of emergency expires 15th of December. An obvious need to get an extension by special vote approval by other members in the upper house. Short term extension. I think 3 months maximum. We now have a fantastic bill. How wonderful. It can be activated and used under the title name to do exactly what Dan planed it to do. Pandemic management. Manage the pandemic situation of a virus. We have over 90% vaccinated people. This was the key Dan sold us to exit lockdowns and remove restrictions. Why was this bill not left to have further alterations in the new year of 2022? To get this future plan just the way it should be to protect people in terms of health and well-being and also not crossing boundaries of human rights. Omicron gets out into society. A new strain. Dan doesn’t need to consider any of his previous promises and advice from federal government in living with a virus. He now has a new concern he can act on. He will. He has a bill soon to be in legislation that allows him to activate a new form of pandemic emergency.

Obviously because he wants to show he is accountable to the safety of his fellow Victorians. Thank you Dan. How considerate. I trust you because you show real honesty and belief in my health. The same accountability you showed for the botched quarantine system? More than 800 people that died? You didn’t even answer questions in an inquiry with anything more than, “I don’t recall, I can’t remember, it wasn’t communicated to me who made the call”. “I will have to get back to you on this issue “. An inquiry where I am sure he selected the member to hold the investigation. Independent on not any level I have seen. I shouldn’t complain though. The fine for not wearing a mask has been reduced. From $20,000 to $10,000. That is awesome. Thanks Dan. What did you pay for not wearing a mask, when you were caught on CCTV? $200, $400? Did you explain how this committee were going to be assembled? Who chooses the panel? Did you forget that Dan? Don’t buy this bullsh1t people. Be very nervous. Don’t hate me. Just be ready for more trouble. I have contacted Dan 20 times in the last 4 months and had no response at all. None. Every other member of the upper house has at least had an assistant send me a response. A day or a week later. Nothing from the iron curtain. Nothing. Indicating a person that doesn’t listen to people who put him into power.

Well said @Mantis .. he's just a mendacious hard left head kicker.

A "look over there" argument.

Sometimes it pays not to have a too myopic focus! ;)
 

Sometimes it pays not to have a too myopic focus! ;)
 

True, but why have they never brought any project into reality without going way over budget.  And I say that about BOTH parties.  If you ran a household like that, you'd be living in a tent

The Age says the Ombudsman has declared herself satisfied with the safeguards in the Bill after criticising earlier incarnations.

No wonder its critics have been forced to dwell on the past rather than criticise the current Bill. As the old saying goes, "If you like laws and sausages, you should never watch either one being made.” It would be ideal if the parliament ran in a collegiate way that enables a well-considered consensus to develop, but that's a fantasy. What we had was the main opposition party, the Liberals, hoping to harvest anti-vaxxer and "my freedom's more important than anybody else's freedom" voters. Did a single Liberal in the LC vote for the Bill? Was that really because each was violently opposed to the Bill in its final form, or were they all following the party line? And then you have Somynurek who appears to want revenge on his way out of parliament. So cross-benchers became crucial. And if they didn't follow the total opposition tactics of the Liberals, well they must have been up to no good, mustn't they? It seems to me the process has worked about as well as could be expected. 

It seems to me that there's really only 1 amendment that would get the fervent critics on board with the Bill: "This Bill does not come into force until Daniel Andrews ceases to be Premier". Good luck with that!

The bill is fine, the problem is Dictator  Dan so just vote the lunatic out at the next election.

The other mob are no better, and that's the problem, no real alternatives.

"Make this state a great state.
A modern up to date state.
Put a one, in the square, for the DLP" :D  :D

I'm not really a DLP supporter...but it was the best political jingle ever...one that stuck in the head, and it's still there some 50 years later ;D

True, but why have they never brought any project into reality without going way over budget.  And I say that about BOTH parties.  If you ran a household like that, you'd be living in a tent

I suppose, households don't normally have projects that span decades and cost billion$.

The figure we are feed via announcements at the time a project is launch is not the figure they expect on the last day of a multi-decade project, it's the current market value if started and completed on the day of the announcement relative to today's costs. The real figure is typically 2x to 3x that price in dollar terms at the expected completion date's relative costs. It's a bureaucratic thing, nothing really to do with the politicians, although the politicians could talk in terms of dollars at the end date rather than dollars at the start date, but then everything would be judged as way too expensive relative to today's costs.

Even so, across this pandemic affected period events are extraordinary. Nobody would have thought basic building supplies and costs would rise 2x or 3x in a just the space of a year or so. Everything from cement to silicone has risen ridiculous amounts courtesy of our trade war with China. Such variations will be written into contracts, there is little governments can do other than pause projects and even then they probably have to pay penalties for pausing.

I've a massive concern about the Vote Dan Out brigade, because it looks to me like Guy isn't a viable alternative. Voting someone out isn't feasible if the replacement is as rubbery whoever that may be. Matthew Guy seems to be rubbery, and that may mean a lot of votes against Dan go to pointless minor party spuds!

It also appears Guy has been caught out buy his own party manipulating gender equality quotas to ensure the new blood isn't really a threat to him. They are electing B-Grade options based on gender quotas, and the prime candidates are being side-lined because they are majority male.

If so Guy is a fool!

Hasn't Guy seen what happens to men when they end up the minority surrounded by feminists, he needs to watch Survivor and watch his back or Sharn Coombes will be stabbing him in it as part of a girl power movement! That in itself isn't a problem, Coombes might be OK, but the problem is a lot of the quota candidates selected based on Guy's administrative directive are just plain ordinary! A state can't afford have them learning on the job from such a low low level, well end up in the crapter before the first term is done!

Our state risks becoming a B-Grade bureaucracy / economy just to ensure the stats work out evenly?

I'm not really a DLP supporter...but it was the best political jingle ever...one that stuck in the head, and it's still there some 50 years later ;D

My problem is people often confuse the DLP with the old Australian Democrats ( aka., Don Chipp's party).

I'm also dubious about the modern DLPs true anti-communist manifesto, because they may declare themselves as democratic socialists, but the policies are barely separable from the ancient comrade riddled ALP!

The old AD was hijacked by various political sub-groups, greens, feminists, religious right, and basically disappeared up it's own clacka! Probably their most recent invocation was Cheryl Kernot, who thought you could run the country off the back of a good lie down and a fresh cup of herbal tea! I'm sure she had the word, "Don't Panic" tattooed somewhere in case of an emergency! The sad thing is I thought her main squeeze at the time, Gareth Evans, probably should have been the ALP's head honcho! Anyway, we aren't big on candidates that move to the enemy mid-career, and that pretty much killed off whatever chance the AD had of surviving!

Nth East Link is 6.5 billion over budget, Westgate Tunnel is 3.3 Billion over budget.
That's a lot of hospitals....

Has an infrastructure project ever come in anywhere near budget?

I have contacted Dan 20 times in the last 4 months and had no response at all. None. Every other member of the upper house has at least had an assistant send me a response. A day or a week later. Nothing from the iron curtain. Nothing. Indicating a person that doesn’t listen to people who put him into power.

Do you think that ministers or the premier read all of the thousands of pieces of correspondence they receive?

I spent twenty years or so responding to correspondence sent to ministers in both LNP and ALP Governments and only a relatively small proportion were signed off by the minister.  Most were "delegated responses" that were signed off by the departmental secretary or, on the odd occasion, by myself.

Anyone who wrote twenty pieces of correspondence about an issue would be classified as a vexatious correspondent and their letters/emails were marked "no reply necessary".  I suspect that your correspondence has been marked "no reply necessary" and with good reason.

Has an infrastructure project ever come in anywhere near budget?

None of Comrade Dans have, about 25 Billion over all up when you include the Nth East Link and Westgate Tunnel....Good thing its only tax payers money and we can always dream up more ways to fine and tax the suckers some more.

From the Age Nov 21....Premier Daniel Andrews has been forced to defend his government’s approach to reporting the state’s public finances after it was savaged by an independent Parliamentary Budget Office.
In a report published , the office found the Labor government had repeatedly changed or even removed key targets on the state’s debt and deficit as the budget position worsened in the past two years.
The office says the Budget left Victorians in the dark about when the state’s massive debts might be paid off and how much the Andrews’ government’s signature “big build” infrastructure program would cost in the end.

The office also said the Budget papers were produced in a way that was “vague” and made an objective assessment of the government’s performance difficult.
Another glowing endorsement of Comrade Dans budgeting expertise...... ;)


Level Crossing Removals

Promised: $5 billion

Last Update: $8.3 billion (Victorian Auditor-General)

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $3.3 billion

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Metro Tunnel

Promised: $9 billion

Last Update: $11 billion

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $2 billion

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

East West Link

Promised: $0 to cancel

Cost: $1.3 billion to cancel it

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $1.3 billion

 

Victorian Heart Hospital

Promised: $150 million

Last Update: $564 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $414 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Cranbourne Line Duplication

Promised: $750 million

Parliamentary Budget Office: $1001.2m

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $251.2 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Caulfield to Dandenong conventional signalling upgrade

Promised: $360m

Last Update: $608.28m

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $248.28 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Mordialloc Freeway

Promised: $300m

Last Update: $523m

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $223 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Cranbourne Pakenham Line Upgrade

Promised: $407.1m

Last Update: $597m

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $189.9 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Hurstbridge Line Upgrade Stage 2

Promised: $530 million

Parliamentary Budget Office: $698.8 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $168.8 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital redevelopment

Promised: $201 million

Last Update: $274.6 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $73.6 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Seaford (Frankston Line) Stabling Project

Promised: $187.4 million

Last Update: $236.7 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $49.3 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Hoddle Street Upgrade

Promised: $60 million

Last Update: $108.6 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $48.6 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Plenty Road Upgrade – Stage 2

Promised: $103.4 million

Last Update: $143.4 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $40 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Casey Hospital Expansion

Promised: $106.3 million

Last Update: $139.8 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $33.5 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Yan Yean Road Upgrade

Promised: $95 million

Last Update: $126 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $31 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Ballarat Line Upgrade

Promised: $516.7 million

Last Update: $549.5 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $32.8 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Infringement Management and Services Reform Project (Fines Victoria)

Promised: $43 million and delivery December 2017

Last Update: $63.3 million and delivery June 2020

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $20.3 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Optimising Transport Network Performance – Congestion Package

Promised: $82.4 million

Last Update: $102.5 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $20.1 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Frankston Station Upgrade

Promised: $50 million

Last Update: $61.8 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $11.8 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

V/Line Fleet Maintenance

Promised: $12.5 million

Last Update: $23 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $10.5 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Hallam Road Upgrade

Promised: $45.014 million

Last Update: $53.514 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $8.5 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Huntingdale Station Carpark

Promised: $4.8 million

Last Update: $11.5 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $6.7 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

 

Mount Buller Water Storage

Promised: $2.06 million

Last Update: $8.25 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $6.19 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld


Thomas Embling Hospital expansion

Promised: $19.3 million

Last Update: $23.3 million

20/21 Budget: Withheld

LAST REPORTED BLOWOUT: $4 million

CURRENT BUDGET BLOWOUT: Withheld

That rule of thumb would apply to just about every state of federal project ever!

Very interesting DJC. You obviously feel my opinion has no place with a politician that doesn’t share the same view as me. Just as you are a supporter of the Dan Andrews government and see his “no response “ as being fine in conducting his work. Yet my first email asked for some advice on the Pandemic Bill, as I wasn’t sure what it was about. I had a response from a secretary on his behalf giving me links and some information. I was instructed by the email to contact the office with any further inquiries and concerns, but to be aware that with the number of mail sent, it was not possible to reply in quick fashion. Once I sent the next mail claiming I had concerns about the bill and begged them to reconsider, there has been no response since.

I did the same to all cross bench members with a please tell me more and what is your opinion? They gave me a response and links to learn more. When negativity was sent from me second time by mail, they backed why they think it might be in the best of interests comparing to previous bills. More transparency etc. Not yet certain how they will vote. Some were already in a position to oppose the new bill and stated why. Still instructing me to mail or call anytime with other issues, but to be patient as a return response may take some time.

Matthew Guy returned his email a week later with the same brief and links. I sent further emails stating why we should look for options to make amendments to the bill by Dan. He claimed this as an option but thought removing it completely was the best option at the moment. He rang me a week later to have a chat about my feelings to his response and if there were other items to bring up in parliament before this year ends. I was at work and listened to my voicemail to hear his message left. I couldn’t call back at work so I rang his office to leave a message that I will email him other infrastructure issues, and issues where the state and federal governments don’t have a way to unify, and set ways to standardise covid restrictions. We are not a group of countries trapped on one island in the south. We are one country divided and need to have some standards that help us work together. That was last week, so I don’t expect an instant response back.

Office from Dan Andrews has no response to any calls or emails. Even the original, please help me understand what this legislation is about and what does it mean to the people of Victoria? Nothing. Which looking at the other members of parliament tells me, Dan doesn’t give a flying f@ck about anyone DJC. He is open to advice. He isn’t interested in hearing your opinion, which is mine. Not your opinion. You agree with him by what I see. Nothing wrong with that. His office shouldn’t stand by a theory that he serves the community and is open to be contacted and help his people. He isn’t. Turn the phone off. Shut the computer down. You are full of sh1t Dan. You are not there to be with us when you don’t listen to us. We are not in this thing together. You are a first class liar. A piece of scum that has no position running any state. When you don’t tell fibs, you conceal the truth or facts. Which is even worse than telling stories that make you a liar.

The other members gave some response back eventually. So who do I trust? Very few because I don’t believe they will tell me all the truth I need to hear. At least they hear me enough to engage conversation. I have the emails from the MP’s and phone messages. I must be talking sh1t though. How did I fluke getting responses from members of upper house parliament? None from Dan Andrews members at all. Not even with an please explain? I must be an idiot so let us just leave it to that result. I am old, stupid and everything I experience is me being an anti-vaxxer, or against the current Premier. Unfortunately we can’t vote the current government out before November 2022. Nearly an entire year away. Dan will never get my vote ever again. Never. I would do a better job and I wouldn’t even know where to start. How about honestly and integrity. Is that something that would work. Not in politics as what I have seen.

None of Comrade Dans have, about 25 Billion over all up when you include the Nth East Link and Westgate Tunnel....Good thing its only tax payers money and we can always dream up more ways to fine and tax the suckers some more.

From the Age Nov 21....Premier Daniel Andrews has been forced to defend his government’s approach to reporting the state’s public finances after it was savaged by an independent Parliamentary Budget Office.
In a report published , the office found the Labor government had repeatedly changed or even removed key targets on the state’s debt and deficit as the budget position worsened in the past two years.
The office says the Budget left Victorians in the dark about when the state’s massive debts might be paid off and how much the Andrews’ government’s signature “big build” infrastructure program would cost in the end.

The office also said the Budget papers were produced in a way that was “vague” and made an objective assessment of the government’s performance difficult.
Another glowing endorsement of Comrade Dans budgeting expertise...... ;)

Nothing like facts, is there @ElwoodBlues1 ... but no, he's doing a fine job ... for the suckers blind to the mess

Another great email @Mantis  ;D

One Premier closes hundreds of mental health beds, making the health budget look good, another has to pay to put them back to care for people and free up hundreds of hospital beds.

What people often think is good depends on a perspective!

Rarely is it as simple as a subtotal.

Vote in a clown to remove an idiot, God bless democracy.

Vote in a clown to remove an idiot, God bless democracy.

It works for the USA. :D

It’s hard to find budgets for infrastructure projects commissioned by the Victorian LNP governments because it’s a very long time since they built anything.  However, this article about the Baillieu Government’s approach to project budget transparency is interesting:

VICTORIAN taxpayers will be left in the dark over the cost of high-profile infrastructure projects such as an east-west road link under a sweeping overhaul of the state's tendering regime quietly announced by the Baillieu government.

A statement on the Victorian economy released by Premier Ted Baillieu just days before Christmas reveals the government will ''no longer disclose'' the cost of major projects when they are announced.

The public will effectively be denied information on the estimated cost of major projects for months, potentially years, until business contracts have been finalised.

The new rules are designed to introduce a fresh layer of competition into the tendering process because rival companies competing for major projects would not be able to calibrate their bids against the government's cost estimates.

''This will improve the competitive tension in the tender process and encourage more active price competition between bidders,'' the statement said.

But the rules have sparked concern taxpayers will have even less ability to scrutinise spending on major projects, which are shielded by commercial-in-confidence provisions.

Opposition scrutiny-of-government spokesman Martin Pakula accused Mr Baillieu of attempting to convince Victorians he could deliver major projects on budget ''by never telling us what the initial budget is''.

''I would expect the new Auditor-General would take a very dim view of this assault on transparency when the position is filled,'' Mr Pakula said.

Treasurer Kim Wells said publicly disclosing the project budget had the potential to limit competition by giving potential bidders ''a reasonable indication of the government's estimate of construction costs''.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/baillieu-hides-project-costs-20130114-2cpsw.html

Note the timing of the announcement!

Vote in a clown to remove an idiot, God bless democracy.

Amen.

"Politicians, like diapers, should be changed regularly... and for the same reason."
(Falsely attributed to Mark Twain).

It works for the USA. :D

Not at the moment it ain't ... Trump was a typhoon, Biden is far more dangerous.  At maybe the most vulnerable time in their history.  Think about it, it's the thing ...

Not at the moment it ain't ... Trump was a typhoon, Biden is far more dangerous.  At maybe the most vulnerable time in their history.  Think about it, it's the thing ...

It's probably better discussed in the US political thread so we can move that discussion there.
The thing is Biden is probably being 'controlled' to a large extent by those around him.
In the end it's those folks making the decisions.
Trump wasn't so restricted and acted on whims.

While I understand much of the angst towards politicians, it is far from simplistic as those that espouse voting along party lines, in fact voting along party lines basically creates most of the problems they rally against.

In my own electorate for the first time ever we have a female non-conservative incumbent. I'm not really a party line voter, and I might be indifferent to Andrews or Guy or both in the wider picture, but for the first time in years I have someone local to myself actually doing stuff and getting it done in our electorate. This comes after years and years of a procession of systematically and mindlessly voted in conservative candidates who basically behaved as placeholders for the next, making few mistakes because they basically did very little or nothing at all!

There isn't a chance in hell I'll vote out someone locally who is actually working for me no matter which party they are from, just to get "a someone" out of some remote big chair who's opinion I read in a newspaper and disagree with, I ain't that stupid!

Finally, the continual anti-party negative whinging in the absence of discussing performance and actions of individuals, just makes the whingers sound more "Moving Pictures rather than Mother Teresa!"

You seem to have a Gilligan's Island view of politics, Mantis. If Ginger doesn't like what the Skipper is wanting to do, of course she can walk over to his hut and have a chat. It aint so easy when there are millions of constituents. Representative democracy is the way we deal with that problem. The local member is the first port of call. The local member even has an office in the electorate which makes it that much easier to engage with him or her.

Your litmus test of judging politicians is pretty loaded against the sitting government. The government is busy with running a State. The opposition is busy trying to rally malcontents and keep any stories about sexual harassment under wraps. Naturally, anyone who has a bone to pick with the Government will find a friendly ear in opposition ranks. This is magnified in this case as anti-vaxxers presumably have been bombarding government officials and ALP members with accusations and demands over this Bill but on the other hand the majority who support it have no particular reason to lobby Matthew Guy. How many letters, emails, and texts do you think the Government has received from "concerned citizens"?

But just because the Premier hasn't engaged personally with you doesn't mean he hasn't provided you with information. After all, the Bill itself is publicly available as I assume the explanatory memoranda would be. If you collated everything disseminated by the government, you'd have a little bit to work with. On the other hand, an independent member of the Legislative Council doesn't have the same ability to broadcast his or her positions. Naturally, they'll be happy to respond to individuals seeking them out. Obtaining a few handfuls of votes at the next election can keep them going if preferences fall their way.

While it makes sense to ask independents about their position on something like this Bill, it makes absolutely no sense to write to the Premier and ask his position. You already know it. Were your questions more rhetorical, such as "How dare you steal our freedoms?"

While you're entitled to your opinions, it's probably a fair bet that they are pretty well covered by feedback the Government has already received from talkback callers, journos, lawyers, academics, human rights organisations, government watchdogs and the AMA amongst many others.

Here's an interesting experiment for you though. Why not ring up Matthew Guy and try to engage him in a debate over something he won't agree with at all. Maybe ring up and call on him to commit to reducing corporate welfare or tightening planning rules to stop developers having the upper hand. Just pick a topic that appeals to you. See how much he engages with you over such matters.

Here's an interesting experiment for you though. Why not ring up Matthew Guy and try to engage him in a debate over something he won't agree with at all. Maybe ring up and call on him to commit to reducing corporate welfare or tightening planning rules to stop developers having the upper hand. Just pick a topic that appeals to you. See how much he engages with you over such matters.

Guy has already kyboshed potential candidates for seats who had publicly touted for stronger controls and new rules on foreign investment. Somewhat ironic given the public rock throwing anti-China messaging around the belt and road stuff, Guys actions and those of the Feds do not match the words, but the Dan haters seem oblivious to the fact that the words say no but the signatures say yes! ;)

https://youtu.be/3Z0QUygjr2w?t=141

Haters, whingers, play the ball LP.

Haters, whingers, play the ball LP.

It's just my honest perspective of what I think when I hear or read repeated and obvious party line complaints, complaints that seem to ignore individual performance or local perspectives. That sort of language is a tell, psychologists refer to it as using inclusive language. ie., Tarring everyone with the same brush, that's what voting on party lines does!

Like I said, I don't vote along party lines, and as I mentioned if some local member is doing the good job by their own electorate I won't kybosh them just because I don't like what their boss says or does on some remote issue!

I stand by the concept that voting out for the sake of voting out is a foolish tactic, you have to identify someone worth voting for or else the net result is a lowering of standards, a race to the bottom of the barrel!

Only cost Victorians a billion dollars in breaking the contract !!

The project that back in 2013 was expected to cost $15 billion to complete and had the Federal Government offering $5 billion towards the cost .

It was the project that received a scathing report from the Victorian Auditor-General because the business model offered such a poor return for each dollar spent.

In caretaker mode, facing a wipeout at that election, the then LNP Government signed a secret deal with the contractor ensuring a payment of $1 billion to the contractor if the project were to be cancelled.

It was an act of straight out blackmail to force the expected incoming ALP government to proceed with a project that had a failed business case.

It was a calculated,  utter dog act from a bunch of people with no ethics and a non existent moral compass.

True, Macca. It was a pretty obvious attempt to tie the hands of the incoming Labor Government and create a "hole" in Labor's explanation of how it would pay for its promises. Perhaps if Labor looks like losing the next election, it should sign contracts for building an array of new schools and hospitals with penalty clauses requiring the State to pay $10b damages if the Liberals rip up those contracts.

Thank you DJC for some of the almost condescending comments. Appreciate them all. It is all opinion and good feedback. Won’t respond in a way to engage an argument. You have your opinion. I just ask why things can’t be different. Nothing wrong with this in my opinion. Just because the state and county is full of corrupt politicians doesn’t make it right. The world is full of murderers, thieves and rapists. That doesn’t go to say it is correct.

My stepfather lives 1 km from the office in Noble Park of Dan Andrews. He is interested in the bill and some issues regarding award/minimum wage, pensions and a few others questions. Let’s just see what minimum to no response he gets. He is too busy running the state as you said. Maybe running it into the ground? My bad, sorry. Sarcasm from me on that one. Not directed to you. Running a state to me was about serving your constituents. The people that voted your party into power. If you can’t hear them because your own agenda is above all priorities of the people it could be what gets you out of a job eventually. Just saying a possibility.

Your sales pitch has put my opinion in concrete. Thank you. I now understand how it works. He which is too busy to see what goes on around him and hear what people say, is either being ignorant or has a self benefiting agenda. He will never get a vote, nor will his party from me, ever again in history. I will seek a better option. Bad or worse leaves me win choice of bad.

Just to let you know, I didn’t address any mail with “how dare you steal our freedoms “. Seriously DJC. I am not a complete f@ckwit. I was taught by my mother that complements to any individual as a first point of communication engages conversation. They lower a persons guard and get them to listen once you need to hit them with some hard concerns. Then be receptive and accept their views but ask, “why do you feel this is the solution and what other options did you have”? If they repeat a pre-rehearsed response you have heard over and over again, you are going to argue with someone who will never hear your view. They know better than you do. Go ask someone else for another opinion, just to establish an opinion isn’t contradicting facts and that goes the other way around. Then choose what you get out of the conversation.

She said wrong is wrong. Just because it is a fact of live indicates wrong is still wrong. Red tape is a fact of life but could be wrong. Systems and processes might be wrong. Life is all about wrong. Ask the questions why and don’t be afraid to do so. Don’t expect change, but accept positive changes as they do happen on a rare occasion. Be honest. Be brave to ask questions, why, where, who what and when. Don’t believe everything you read. You learn more from talking to someone than reading what they wrote. Hence scripted text, interviews and carefully constructed facts mean little to me many times. If that makes me stupid, then stupid is where I sit with pride and happy to be honest. Bill looks better than it originally was, but as dangerous as the leader that can abuse it at their will. Wait and see what happens next year. I don’t have any answers there. Suspicion of things that could be an issue. My opinion again.

Very interesting DJC. You obviously feel my opinion has no place with a politician that doesn’t share the same view as me. Just as you are a supporter of the Dan Andrews government and see his “no response “ as being fine in conducting his work. Yet my first email asked for some advice on the Pandemic Bill, as I wasn’t sure what it was about. I had a response from a secretary on his behalf giving me links and some information. I was instructed by the email to contact the office with any further inquiries and concerns, but to be aware that with the number of mail sent, it was not possible to reply in quick fashion. Once I sent the next mail claiming I had concerns about the bill and begged them to reconsider, there has been no response since.

I did the same to all cross bench members with a please tell me more and what is your opinion? They gave me a response and links to learn more. When negativity was sent from me second time by mail, they backed why they think it might be in the best of interests comparing to previous bills. More transparency etc. Not yet certain how they will vote. Some were already in a position to oppose the new bill and stated why. Still instructing me to mail or call anytime with other issues, but to be patient as a return response may take some time.

Matthew Guy returned his email a week later with the same brief and links. I sent further emails stating why we should look for options to make amendments to the bill by Dan. He claimed this as an option but thought removing it completely was the best option at the moment. He rang me a week later to have a chat about my feelings to his response and if there were other items to bring up in parliament before this year ends. I was at work and listened to my voicemail to hear his message left. I couldn’t call back at work so I rang his office to leave a message that I will email him other infrastructure issues, and issues where the state and federal governments don’t have a way to unify, and set ways to standardise covid restrictions. We are not a group of countries trapped on one island in the south. We are one country divided and need to have some standards that help us work together. That was last week, so I don’t expect an instant response back.

Office from Dan Andrews has no response to any calls or emails. Even the original, please help me understand what this legislation is about and what does it mean to the people of Victoria? Nothing. Which looking at the other members of parliament tells me, Dan doesn’t give a flying f@ck about anyone DJC. He is open to advice. He isn’t interested in hearing your opinion, which is mine. Not your opinion. You agree with him by what I see. Nothing wrong with that. His office shouldn’t stand by a theory that he serves the community and is open to be contacted and help his people. He isn’t. Turn the phone off. Shut the computer down. You are full of sh1t Dan. You are not there to be with us when you don’t listen to us. We are not in this thing together. You are a first class liar. A piece of scum that has no position running any state. When you don’t tell fibs, you conceal the truth or facts. Which is even worse than telling stories that make you a liar.

The other members gave some response back eventually. So who do I trust? Very few because I don’t believe they will tell me all the truth I need to hear. At least they hear me enough to engage conversation. I have the emails from the MP’s and phone messages. I must be talking sh1t though. How did I fluke getting responses from members of upper house parliament? None from Dan Andrews members at all. Not even with an please explain? I must be an idiot so let us just leave it to that result. I am old, stupid and everything I experience is me being an anti-vaxxer, or against the current Premier. Unfortunately we can’t vote the current government out before November 2022. Nearly an entire year away. Dan will never get my vote ever again. Never. I would do a better job and I wouldn’t even know where to start. How about honestly and integrity. Is that something that would work. Not in politics as what I have seen.

So you did get a response Mantis. 

When you wrote that you got "a response from a secretary", that would be Jeremi Moule, the Secretary of the Department of Premier and Cabinet, the most senior bureaucrat in the State.  That indicates that your first enquiry was taken very seriously.  As I said in my previous post,  your subsequent correspondence blitz would be considered vexatious, and/or dealt with by the response to your first email.  In other words, your emails would be noted as "no response necessary.  All minister/premiers do that, regardless of political party.  It's simply not possible to respond to every letter/email and particularly when one person sends 20 emails about the same subject.  It's a different matter for opposition and cross-bench MPs, they simply don't get anywhere near the correspondence of government MPs and have plenty of time to deal with their correspondents.

If you really must have a response from the Premier or a Minister, write to your local member and ask them to pose the question on your behalf. 

The problem is that the State Government needs legislation to enable it to deal with pandemics more effectively and efficiently and with adequate safeguards.  The new Act - it's now law and that's democracy in action - does just that.  For all Matthew Guy's posturing, he understands that.  There is absolutely no way that he will be the next Premier, and I suspect Andrews won't be in the job either.  However, if Guy, or his replacement as LNP leader, manages to be elected Premier at some future, they will very quickly forget their objections to the Pandemic Management Act.

Thank you DJC for some of the almost condescending comments. Appreciate them all. It is all opinion and good feedback. Won’t respond in a way to engage an argument. You have your opinion. I just ask why things can’t be different. Nothing wrong with this in my opinion. Just because the state and county is full of corrupt politicians doesn’t make it right. The world is full of murderers, thieves and rapists. That doesn’t go to say it is correct.

My stepfather lives 1 km from the office in Noble Park of Dan Andrews. He is interested in the bill and some issues regarding award/minimum wage, pensions and a few others questions. Let’s just see what minimum to no response he gets. He is too busy running the state as you said. Maybe running it into the ground? My bad, sorry. Sarcasm from me on that one. Not directed to you. Running a state to me was about serving your constituents. The people that voted your party into power. If you can’t hear them because your own agenda is above all priorities of the people it could be what gets you out of a job eventually. Just saying a possibility.

Your sales pitch has put my opinion in concrete. Thank you. I now understand how it works. He which is too busy to see what goes on around him and hear what people say, is either being ignorant or has a self benefiting agenda. He will never get a vote, nor will his party from me, ever again in history. I will seek a better option. Bad or worse leaves me win choice of bad.

Just to let you know, I didn’t address any mail with “how dare you steal our freedoms “. Seriously DJC. I am not a complete f@ckwit. I was taught by my mother that complements to any individual as a first point of communication engages conversation. They lower a persons guard and get them to listen once you need to hit them with some hard concerns. Then be receptive and accept their views but ask, “why do you feel this is the solution and what other options did you have”? If they repeat a pre-rehearsed response you have heard over and over again, you are going to argue with someone who will never hear your view. They know better than you do. Go ask someone else for another opinion, just to establish an opinion isn’t contradicting facts and that goes the other way around. Then choose what you get out of the conversation.

She said wrong is wrong. Just because it is a fact of live indicates wrong is still wrong. Red tape is a fact of life but could be wrong. Systems and processes might be wrong. Life is all about wrong. Ask the questions why and don’t be afraid to do so. Don’t expect change, but accept positive changes as they do happen on a rare occasion. Be honest. Be brave to ask questions, why, where, who what and when. Don’t believe everything you read. You learn more from talking to someone than reading what they wrote. Hence scripted text, interviews and carefully constructed facts mean little to me many times. If that makes me stupid, then stupid is where I sit with pride and happy to be honest. Bill looks better than it originally was, but as dangerous as the leader that can abuse it at their will. Wait and see what happens next year. I don’t have any answers there. Suspicion of things that could be an issue. My opinion again.

I'm not sure what post you're referring to.  I suspect that you're confusing me with another poster. 

The fact of the matter is that, while Governments of any persuasion are interested in the opinions of electors, they're not obliged or able to agree with the vast range of opinions that are provided by folk who feel strongly enough to write or send an email.  For every elector who proposes a course of action similar to yours, there are 7 or 8 who propose an opposite course of action.  That's democracy and it will play out at the next State election.

Mantis, you've learnt a valuable lesson. It seems you've been using a breadcrumbs approach: your first piece of correspondence was just a request for information you already had in the hope you could spin it out into a chain of correspondence in which you would progressively reveal your distaste for the Bill. Your breadcrumbs approach might work with independents and opposition members who have spare time but was hardly going to work with a government that is dealing with a health crisis. Maybe you should have put all of your concerns or submissions in the 1st letter/email. Being heard isn't the same as having a personal hotline to engage in 1 on 1 debates. It would be cool to be a Bob Woodward who gets to drop by and chat to all the decision makers but if there are too many Bob Woodwards nothing would get done.

Mail-in campaigns can work by demonstrating widespread dissatisfaction in the community. They don't work by tying up the government in countless chains of correspondence and endless hours of personal outreach. While you will protest that you're only 1 person and you aren't aligned with others who are coordinating such campaigns, try seeing it from the viewpoint of your interlocutor. As DJC suggested, sending 20 letters/emails in a comparatively short space of time would have seen you put into exactly that basket.

The only thing Mantis has learned is how condescending some posters can be and how this government who have relied on working folk like Mantis and his family for votes really operate and have zero care factor for anything else other than their political careers and large pensions. This is what happens when you have a pathetic opposition and lack of quality smaller parties/independents to keep the presiding Government honest.

It looks like you think that Mantis' strategy was the way to go, EB. Did you do the same thing to assist your anti-vaxxer nurse friend as the vaccine mandate loomed? Or did you just not give a frig? Or maybe you just don't like the way this Government fails to respect the right-wing veto.

The only thing Mantis has learned is how condescending some posters can be and how this government who have relied on working folk like Mantis and his family for votes really operate and have zero care factor for anything else other than their political careers and large pensions. This is what happens when you have a pathetic opposition and lack of quality smaller parties/independents to keep the presiding Government honest.

That is so true .... especially Matthew Guy.  And nor would you ever label Patten as quality

It looks like you think that Mantis' strategy was the way to go, EB. Did you do the same thing to assist your anti-vaxxer nurse friend as the vaccine mandate loomed? Or did you just not give a frig? Or maybe you just don't like the way this Government fails to respect the right-wing veto.

You have a bad habit of patronizing people who you think lack the intelligence to debate you, it might stroke your ego telling folk like Mantis they have learned a lesson or imply they are too insignificant for the Government to respond too but I'm not going to sit back and let you be so dismissive of his opinions and rights.
When the CoVid Pandemic ends you will be disappointed not being able to use the term Anti Vaxxer anymore...you do want it to end dont you? You dont need a mandate for fail with this Government its just a natural reoccurring event unfortunately....

I am engaging directly with Mantis, something you don't do. Who knows what you think about Mantis' strategy? I sure as hell don't. But you just like the fact that there's a bit of anger directed at the Govt that has shafted your friend. The most arrogant and condescending type is the guy who stands off the argument while throwing insults at will. Either enter the debate or go away. 

I am engaging directly with Mantis, something you don't do. Who knows what you think about Mantis' strategy? I sure as hell don't. But you just like the fact that there's a bit of anger directed at the Govt that has shafted your friend. The most arrogant and condescending type is the guy who stands off the argument while throwing insults at will. Either enter the debate or go away. 

Mantis is a mature adult capable of forming his own opinions and expressing them in a good fashion as he has shown over the years on this forum. It wasnt his letter writing skills that were the problem it was the awkward subject matter requiring truthful and detailed answers.
If I have a history of being arrogant and condescending I'm sure the mods will let me know and ask me to leave, so until that happens sorry to say you are stuck with me.....

Mantis complains that the lack of response to his letters demonstrates anti-democratic behaviour (and we're at a disadvantage as we don't know the contents other than we know Mantis believes the Bill was bad). In making that argument, his letter-writing campaign becomes the central issue. It doesn't bother me that he writes letters. It also doesn't bother me that he hates the Bill and won't vote for the ALP in the next election. It's his vote and I can't be bothered trying to change anyone's voting intentions. However, I disagree with his argument that a failure to respond to 19 of his 20 letters is proof of an anti-democratic streak in the Government. As he threw that issue open to debate, I think I'm entitled to respond to it. And of course you don't take issue with any of the points I've made as you're just happy to heckle from the sidelines. But I suspect this thread is moribund anyway given that the Bill is either law or will soon be. It's back to the main Covid thread for me.

There you have it people. Sooner than I expected. The Pandemic Management declaration has been sound. It is in effect as of December 16th. The following day after our original State of Emergency expires. Dan Andrews has planned this very well. Under his new bill he has found to been “satisfied on reasonable grounds “ that there was serious risk to public health, which under new legislation is the only parameter needed to make a declaration. It will be in place up to mid January (12th ?). There on it can be activated on an extension for 3 month blocks.

Now let us wait and see what lockdowns and restrictions are engaged. This bill was not a bill to improve on a previous state of emergency. It was a planned bill to fall into legislation by the end of the previous state of emergency. Good luck protestors. You will see serious fines and jail time. Don’t forget to wear your masks if it is stated as mandatory people. It could serve you with a $10,000 fine.

On a serious note, I heard Dan is going on holiday soon. I wonder if any restrictions of movement will be activated after he has had his time to move around where he chooses, before he has his Health Minister engage restrictions to the public? Why is this Pandemic Management declaration in place soon? Our daily figures of cases and deaths haven’t changed for more than a month. No reason for the government to panic as we are over 90% vaccinated. Something the federal leader states is a way to live with this virus. Not my words. The words from

Is it the new Omicron variant? The strain that experts claim might spread easier than others, yet have far less symptoms. Far less rate of serious illness or deaths? Is this now becoming a way to control the population and confuse the masses? Are we going to see further division between the vaccinated and unvaccinated? I hope it doesn’t. I am fully vaccinated. I have no fear of those that are not. For f@ck sake, they shop in Coles and Woolworths everyday with me. I must bump into hundreds of these disease infected bastards every day. They don’t have a safety harness. I do. They are at more risk than I am. Is that how it works? What is going on here? What game is Dan Andrews playing here? He wants to lock all non vaccinated people behind bars. He wants to lock all protesters behind bars.

Claiming our health system won’t cope with potential problems. I now have nurses and doctors from 4 major hospitals in Victoria stating interesting facts. Not what the current government state to the public. I am very worried about this man. I fear he might not be well mentally. Just an opinion. He needs to consider the consequences of his actions. The wrong choice could cause more mental health issues. People taking their own lives. Make careful choices Dan. Seriously, I beg you. Don’t be to empowered by this new bill. Act conservative but still think of what needs to be done. Don’t be power hungry. If you do act poorly you are not Australian.

Just to remind you Dan. I will never vote for you again. Think about your choice before everyone feels as I do. Just my opinion with facts I have seen. Don’t view things my way. Try understanding my questions. I don’t but actually do in some way. No doubt I will be ridiculed soon by experts. Bring it on. If you can’t ask questions or see outside the square, your opinion means little to anyone. Facts are not the answer if they are wrong or questionable. Just saying.

"Don’t be power hungry"

Being a mad socialist, he doesn't have the intelligence to know any better.  A quasi Police state is all we are.

Glad to hear we won't become the only State or Territory to be without health orders. What a joke we would have become.

Mantis, I wish I could share your optimistic view that the fully vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated.

I am in the seniors group and will get the booster shot in mid January.  Because of my age my immunity is lessening by the day and I certainly am at risk of getting Covid from a non vaccinated person.  My wife does not share my good health and if she were to catch Covid her chance of recovery would be very slim.

According to your view the unvaccinated should be free to do whatever they want, go wherever they please and the community just has to grin and bear it. 

Quite frankly, I've had a gutfull of these selfish pr%%ks who put their personal "rights to freedom" above the rights of the community.

I hope Andrews keeps the restrictions in place for the foreseeable future.

Mantis, I wish I could share your optimistic view that the fully vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated.

I am in the seniors group and will get the booster shot in mid January.  Because of my age my immunity is lessening by the day and I certainly am at risk of getting Covid from a non vaccinated person.  My wife does not share my good health and if she were to catch Covid her chance of recovery would be very slim.

According to your view the unvaccinated should be free to do whatever they want, go wherever they please and the community just has to grin and bear it. 

Quite frankly, I've had a gutfull of these selfish pr%%ks who put their personal "rights to freedom" above the rights of the community.

I hope Andrews keeps the restrictions in place for the foreseeable future.

Sorry to hear your story Macca.

I am very sad to hear about your situation. I really am. With all my honesty and sympathy. I wish no people had an issue with their immune system that couldn’t deal with any sickness. I honestly do. I wish you Macca and your wife were of way better health. I am not a young fella myself. Not now. Many years ago was a different story. I don’t see what Dan could execute being a health benefit as a primary issue. It could cripple the economy of this state further. It appears that small businesses have suffered enough.

I once again feel very sad for your state of health along with your wife. Don’t think I have no sympathy. I shop shoulder to shoulder for my food every day. People bringing their entire tribe along for a loaf of bread, bottle of milk, and a tray of sausages. Stay home and let mum or dad buy basics alone. We all shop and get in close contact while shopping for food. Vaccinated and unvaccinated. Both potentially able to spread the virus. Not so if we shop for clothes in Target or Kmart as we the protected can shop here only. Really? How is there really any difference?

I don’t accept those that don’t give a flying frog and do whatever they want with no care factor for those around them. I don’t believe we should all live in a bubble. Website shopping for everything to avoid human contact. It is possible. Food, clothing etc. It is possible. No events, restaurants, pubs, sporting, schools, work etc. Working from home for everyone.

What is the best answer to the above? Not complete isolation of all. Not separating the people either. Those in your situation Macca make me feel sad that there is no real answer. I would hate to think you would need to hide from everyone and live in your own little bubble. Being vaccinated isn’t a certainty a virus can’t be contracted and spread to another person. This virus won’t be gone by 2022. Who knows how long it will last. Influenzas have been around my entire life.

I just think that if we had a thousand cases per day for the last month and had no restrictions we had a standard. Now we have a new bill in legislation, we have it activated to bring restrictions (potentially)into place  is a big flip with no new evidence. Don’t consider Omicron new evidence considering it has been around for months with no actions. What is Dan Andrews up to now? Sorry to hear about your health situation Macca. I do care. Don’t get me wrong. I hope you don’t have to hide from society to live a healthy life. You will probably be at risk no matter what happens. Vaccinated or unvaccinated people in society, if you decide to leave home to do what you need to do. I hope you and your wife stay well and live well. If this vaccine program is what we have been sold to believe, we shouldn’t have an issue. Should we?

Mantis, I wish I could share your optimistic view that the fully vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated.

I am in the seniors group and will get the booster shot in mid January.  Because of my age my immunity is lessening by the day and I certainly am at risk of getting Covid from a non vaccinated person.  My wife does not share my good health and if she were to catch Covid her chance of recovery would be very slim.

According to your view the unvaccinated should be free to do whatever they want, go wherever they please and the community just has to grin and bear it. 

Quite frankly, I've had a gutfull of these selfish pr%%ks who put their personal "rights to freedom" above the rights of the community.

I hope Andrews keeps the restrictions in place for the foreseeable future.

You presume an unvaxxed person has Covid?

Odd.

You presume an unvaxxed person is more likely to catch Covid and more likely to pass it on to you?

Irrational and unsupported by the data.

Vaxxed folk carry just as much viral load as an unvaxxed type.

And can just as easily transmit it.

Moreover, data is starting to show VAIDS is an issue....

Having a gutful of something doesn't excuse ignorance.

Flyboy, I don't presume.

  What I do know is that many of the non-vaccinated, excluding those with medical reasons, and represented by the ignorant, self-indulgent marchers of recent days, are the ones in denial of the existence of Covid.  On the occasions when they catch Covid they usually wait days before seeking treatment, meanwhile wandering around in the community spreading the virus to family members and other people in the community.

You believe that my views are the result of ignorance.

Interestingly, my views were  formed some months ago after discussions with an epidemiologist. 

Nothing has occurred recently to change my views at all.

. 

Don't worry Macca, Flyboy wouldn't know data if it slapped him in the face. Ivermectin shills forfeit any claim they might have to be able to analyse data.

Moreover, data is starting to show VAIDS is an issue....

Very
Angry
Ivermectin
Dispensing
Shills

And here I was thinking that this thread would wither and die after the democratic process had run its course and the Pandemic Management Act 2021 became law  ::)

Of course the Premier has made use of the Act, it's intended to deal with pandemics and we're smack bang in the middle of one.  Anyone who can't see that has rocks in their head.

I don't give a fat rat's clacker about folk who choose not to be vaccinated.  They will get COVID and many of them will die.  That's their choice.  I am concerned about folk who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons and I'm particularly concerned about the children under 12 who can't yet be vaccinated.

One of my grandsons was pulled out of his first ever school camp yesterday because he was a close contact of a COVID case.  Fortunately, he has tested negative, as has his family.  Until such time as all children are protected from COVID, our Governments, State and Federal, should be doing whatever is necessary to slow the spread of COVID.  That requires the use of powers conferred by the Pandemic Management Act 2021 and whatever applies in other jurisdictions.

My nephew (a medical researcher) recently got COVID after a night out in Bendigo.  My niece's husband (a firey) also got COVID at the same venue.  My niece (a public servant) escaped infection as did another nephew (a tradie) and his wife (an ambo).  All are double vaxxed and the two who got COVID had mild symptoms and are no longer infectious.  All of them are very supportive of the Pandemic Management Act 2021 and its use to suppress the spread of COVID to the vulnerable in our community.

My RSL branch had its Christmas break-up at a local golf club last week.  Most of the veterans and their partners are a little older than me and every one was double vaxxed.  While they have a range of views about how the State and Federal Governments are dealing with COVID, they strongly support the vaccine mandate and the measures taken by the State Government.  The thing is that they have served their country and, in most cases, put their lives on the line.  They wouldn't give the steam off their p1ss for the crackpots who peddle conspiracy theories and won't take the pandemic seriously.

And here I was thinking that this thread would wither and die after the democratic process had run its course and the Pandemic Management Act 2021 became law  ::)

Of course the Premier has made use of the Act, it's intended to deal with pandemics and we're smack bang in the middle of one.  Anyone who can't see that has rocks in their head.

I don't give a fat rat's clacker about folk who choose not to be vaccinated.  They will get COVID and many of them will die.  That's their choice.  I am concerned about folk who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons and I'm particularly concerned about the children under 12 who can't yet be vaccinated.

One of my grandsons was pulled out of his first ever school camp yesterday because he was a close contact of a COVID case.  Fortunately, he has tested negative, as has his family.  Until such time as all children are protected from COVID, our Governments, State and Federal, should be doing whatever is necessary to slow the spread of COVID.  That requires the use of powers conferred by the Pandemic Management Act 2021 and whatever applies in other jurisdictions.

My nephew (a medical researcher) recently got COVID after a night out in Bendigo.  My niece's husband (a firey) also got COVID at the same venue.  My niece (a public servant) escaped infection as did another nephew (a tradie) and his wife (an ambo).  All are double vaxxed and the two who got COVID had mild symptoms and are no longer infectious.  All of them are very supportive of the Pandemic Management Act 2021 and its use to suppress the spread of COVID to the vulnerable in our community.

My RSL branch had its Christmas break-up at a local golf club last week.  Most of the veterans and their partners are a little older than me and every one was double vaxxed.  While they have a range of views about how the State and Federal Governments are dealing with COVID, they strongly support the vaccine mandate and the measures taken by the State Government.  The thing is that they have served their country and, in most cases, put their lives on the line.  They wouldn't give the steam off their p1ss for the crackpots who peddle conspiracy theories and won't take the pandemic seriously.

Well said, David.

I am 100% on the same page, especially regarding the vulnerable who can't be vaccinated. And the kids.

Those who choose not to be vaccinated for all kinds of spurious reasoning, will likely get to burden the community in all manner of ways.

I do, however, as expressed previously remain concerned for the mental health of the vulnerable (to severe anx, depression, etc.). It does seem this reality is being acknowledged and funding to support resources is to be raised.

We have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world. There is no need to try and label everyone politically opposed to you as anti vaxxers.

The flipside of your point that we have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world is that anti-vaxxers form a much larger percentage of our unvaccinated. Apart from those who qualify for exemptions or small children, is there any real difference between the vaccine-hesitants and anti-vaxxers in the unvaccinated population? Is vaccine-hesitant just a euphemism for anti-vaxxer?

We have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world. There is no need to try and label everyone politically opposed to you as anti vaxxers.

With the notable exception of the idiot holding power in Western Australia who'll never get to 90%

We have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world. There is no need to try and label everyone politically opposed to you as anti vaxxers.

Yes, one of the highest vaccination rates for eligible people.  Under 12s can't yet be vaccinated and they are entitled to protection by whatever means is available to our Governments.  Anyway, I'm more concerned about freedumbers than anti-vaxxers  ::)

I guess the point is that, unless we have a declaration under the Pandemic Management Act 2021, there's no mechanism to require infected people to isolate, close contacts to be tested, returning travellers to quarantine, etc.  Those measures will be required for some time regardless of whether the 5% of eligible folk who haven't vaccinated, for whatever reason, change their mind.

DJC. Do you think we will only have a case of infected people needing to isolate. Close contact tracing. Returning travellers in a quarantine program. How did the hotel quarantine program go last time when 800 lives were lost with no accountability. “I don’t recall who employed the security company. I can’t remember who was responsible for the lack of a stringent process to control and monitor the quarantine process. I can’t give details which I didn’t sign off on”. “It was  not my fault. I can’t be held accountable “. Great government control process. That is another issue to be honest.

In the right hands, this bill is probably way better than anything we have had before. In the wrong hands it stands to give further dictatorship to a state leader. A man ready to employ restrictions at his will, that will allow the biggest gathering at the Boxing Day test that we have seen for a long time. Don’t try to convince us 80,000 plus vaccinated people have no chance of spreading a virus. Where is the safe bench mark? Is it a political ploy to gain popularity amongst future voters in the next state election? Why do I need to fear an unvaccinated dozen people at Coles when I shop for food in close contact, yet I can sit in a massive crowd at the cricket, sitting shoulder to shoulder and be safe?

Is it not a possibility vaxed people can contract an illness and still create community transmission even if they show no symptoms? Is it about money? We are being vaccinated at a huge rate. The booster program is now dropped from 6 months to 5 months by the federal health minister. How many do we need vaccinated before we can go to live a normal life? How are there so inconsistent rules. You can now fly from South Africa where potential Omicron variant is some issue. With no 14 day quarantine once you arrive in this country. If fully vaccinated you only require 72 hours self quarantine. How is this system all over the place?

What will Dan come up with after New Year’s Eve? Just wait an see his suspicions. Potential problems. A feeling in his stomach. My opinion and only mine. If we see another lockdown this pandemic management bill will create public problems. We see very few Omicron cases in Victoria. We have had around 1000 cases of the Delta variant for quite some time, with no concerns. By what the state government has shown or acted on. If the new bill acted on leaves us with what we are experiencing now, then a consistent plan is something. Not really consistent, but no change considering people are still getting vaccinated.

Otherwise make us all safe. No work unless you can work from home. Shop online for food and everything you need. With contactless delivery. If unemployed due to not being able to work from home, then offer benefits. Stay away from any people ever, whether neighbours, family or friends. Vaccinated or unvaccinated. No more spread. The virus will vanish. No people coming here from overseas. How will jail in your four wall dwelling be for your mental health? When are we ever safe DJC?

I fear what Dan will do next. Not a safety net for the people. I have a small suspicion he will separate us into two groups. Vaccinated and unvaccinated. To hate each other. People fighting their own. Yet we still shop with each other every day. Yet we all can infect each other no matter what the status. Dan calls this as he can see it. Not my words. His in fact. “This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated “. What the f@ck kind of comment is that to sell to the people regularly? The virus isn’t prejudice. It doesn’t choose who to infect. Does it? He said it doesn’t. Many times. Now how is this a pandemic of the unvaccinated? That is what this bill is all about. Unfortunately he could punish everyone to keep selling his story of this pandemic.

Nothing consistent about how Dan operates. Nothing. Always a suspected agenda with his choices. Why else would he have pushed hard to get this bill through. Then activating it into place, while we have no serious concerns that we haven’t experienced for at least a month if not more.

I do apologise if I offend you DJC. Especially hearing about cases in you close circle of family. I am not heartless. I hope things work out in your family. Please accept that as genuine. Not here to be heartless. Just have no trust in the current government. This new bill has fall back grounds for some intervention. It also allows choice of a Premier and Health Minister to act on a hunch. A suspicion. The bill allows it. New legislation. No serious facts, data, figures required. If a pandemic on this planet exists, he can act. Based on Health Minister advice of the state. Not federal Minister or country leader. How did this ever get into play? That State leaders have more power than our federal leaders. Does this not sound strange to anyone? Am I the only idiot here? What is national cabinet about? Sack them. We obviously don’t need them. Every state becomes its own country. What the hell has happened to this country? Where are there some consistent set rules?

Sad to say I wish Mr Sheen was back in power. At least I knew where I stood and we were in financial surplus.

@Mantis‍  I think in some of the above you conflate those willing to act as wielding more power than those who have power and yet sit on their hands leaving our fate to prayer and happy clapping!

Don't confuse action with power, they aren't related, power defines scope not willingness!

Why are we considering unrealistic scenarios? What do governments do in an election year? Do they go out of their way to make controversial and unpopular decisions? Of course not. The usual MO is to do some pork barrelling and announce policies that will please voters.

I'm pretty sure you'll find Dan Andrews hopes that the new year will allow the government to declare victory over Covid. Declaring that the pandemic has gone beserk requiring lockdowns contrary to the opinions of epidemiologists across the world would be literally insane.

The advantage of the new Act is that it makes it clear the buck stops with the government. Under the old legislation, it was the CHO's decision (which is why the vaccine mandate plaintiffs have sued Brett Sutton whereas the NSW plaintiffs have sued the NSW Health Minister, Brad Hazzard). The government could always blame the CHO. Now, there's no hiding from the responsibility. 

It is time to not point the finger of blame, but be accountable for the people. Stop throwing people under the bus. Start standing by your words, opinions and claims. Stop making this a political game. I don’t like politicians. I really don’t. I hate fake news, liars and false hope. Why is politics filled with false truth.? Fund me and with no experience I will at a minimum sell you truth and do what you want me to do. At best in balance to what is needed to all in society.

DJC. Do you think we will only have a case of infected people needing to isolate. Close contact tracing. Returning travellers in a quarantine program. How did the hotel quarantine program go last time when 800 lives were lost with no accountability. “I don’t recall who employed the security company. I can’t remember who was responsible for the lack of a stringent process to control and monitor the quarantine process. I can’t give details which I didn’t sign off on”. “It was  not my fault. I can’t be held accountable “. Great government control process. That is another issue to be honest.

In the right hands, this bill is probably way better than anything we have had before. In the wrong hands it stands to give further dictatorship to a state leader. A man ready to employ restrictions at his will, that will allow the biggest gathering at the Boxing Day test that we have seen for a long time. Don’t try to convince us 80,000 plus vaccinated people have no chance of spreading a virus. Where is the safe bench mark? Is it a political ploy to gain popularity amongst future voters in the next state election? Why do I need to fear an unvaccinated dozen people at Coles when I shop for food in close contact, yet I can sit in a massive crowd at the cricket, sitting shoulder to shoulder and be safe?

Is it not a possibility vaxed people can contract an illness and still create community transmission even if they show no symptoms? Is it about money? We are being vaccinated at a huge rate. The booster program is now dropped from 6 months to 5 months by the federal health minister. How many do we need vaccinated before we can go to live a normal life? How are there so inconsistent rules. You can now fly from South Africa where potential Omicron variant is some issue. With no 14 day quarantine once you arrive in this country. If fully vaccinated you only require 72 hours self quarantine. How is this system all over the place?

What will Dan come up with after New Year’s Eve? Just wait an see his suspicions. Potential problems. A feeling in his stomach. My opinion and only mine. If we see another lockdown this pandemic management bill will create public problems. We see very few Omicron cases in Victoria. We have had around 1000 cases of the Delta variant for quite some time, with no concerns. By what the state government has shown or acted on. If the new bill acted on leaves us with what we are experiencing now, then a consistent plan is something. Not really consistent, but no change considering people are still getting vaccinated.

Otherwise make us all safe. No work unless you can work from home. Shop online for food and everything you need. With contactless delivery. If unemployed due to not being able to work from home, then offer benefits. Stay away from any people ever, whether neighbours, family or friends. Vaccinated or unvaccinated. No more spread. The virus will vanish. No people coming here from overseas. How will jail in your four wall dwelling be for your mental health? When are we ever safe DJC?

I fear what Dan will do next. Not a safety net for the people. I have a small suspicion he will separate us into two groups. Vaccinated and unvaccinated. To hate each other. People fighting their own. Yet we still shop with each other every day. Yet we all can infect each other no matter what the status. Dan calls this as he can see it. Not my words. His in fact. “This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated “. What the f@ck kind of comment is that to sell to the people regularly? The virus isn’t prejudice. It doesn’t choose who to infect. Does it? He said it doesn’t. Many times. Now how is this a pandemic of the unvaccinated? That is what this bill is all about. Unfortunately he could punish everyone to keep selling his story of this pandemic.

Nothing consistent about how Dan operates. Nothing. Always a suspected agenda with his choices. Why else would he have pushed hard to get this bill through. Then activating it into place, while we have no serious concerns that we haven’t experienced for at least a month if not more.

I do apologise if I offend you DJC. Especially hearing about cases in you close circle of family. I am not heartless. I hope things work out in your family. Please accept that as genuine. Not here to be heartless. Just have no trust in the current government. This new bill has fall back grounds for some intervention. It also allows choice of a Premier and Health Minister to act on a hunch. A suspicion. The bill allows it. New legislation. No serious facts, data, figures required. If a pandemic on this planet exists, he can act. Based on Health Minister advice of the state. Not federal Minister or country leader. How did this ever get into play? That State leaders have more power than our federal leaders. Does this not sound strange to anyone? Am I the only idiot here? What is national cabinet about? Sack them. We obviously don’t need them. Every state becomes its own country. What the hell has happened to this country? Where are there some consistent set rules?

Sad to say I wish Mr Sheen was back in power. At least I knew where I stood and we were in financial surplus.

You don't offend me Mantis but you're simply talking nonsense.

We need legislation to manage the pandemic and, thanks to the cross bench, we've got the best, most comprehensive and accountable legislation in the Commonwealth.

You seem to have forgotten that we live in a democracy and laws passed by the current Government will still be in place if and when a new Government is elected.  Do you really think that any Government would give their successors the draconian powers that you think lie within the Pandemic Management Act 2021?

I think that it's time for you to brush up on how our version of the Westminster system of government works.

LP and MAV. I respect you both. I make my case by saying he is no more deaf than he who will not hear. Look outside the square. Don’t hate me. In fact do so if you choose. I don’t hate you or have no respect for your opinions. I just see it from a different angle. One that labor party members don’t see.

DJC. Brush upon the West Minster system and how democracy works before you engage in arguments. Very complicated. We don’t live in democracy at the moment. We are in a pandemic remember. Or am I wrong. Democracy doesn’t exist in a pandemic.