Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: capcom on January 27, 2021, 07:19:47 am

Title: Justice
Post by: capcom on January 27, 2021, 07:19:47 am
So a 17 year mongrel kid out on bail (again) with a record of 50 previous offences, steals a 4WD, road rages on BNE streets, rolls the vehicle and ends up killing an innocent couple and their unborn child yesterday.  Fled the scene and attempted to steal another car.  Facing children's court today.

Charged with murder by the cops.  What justice would you exact?

Title: Re: Justice
Post by: LP on January 27, 2021, 08:17:00 am
Hard to know, 20 to life is probably about right, but you do not want a jail harden 37 year old walking out of the system so perhaps life.

This is something society struggles with, also I think 17 might be beyond kid(child), in some countries you can legally drive at 16. Here in Oz parents can't stop someone that age leaving home and they can legally sue parents as well, or have and retain children.

So I don't see how they can pick and choose the side of the ledger, if they want freedom surely it comes at a price, which is the risk of loss of liberty that is the burden carried by all adults.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Professer E on January 27, 2021, 08:25:34 am
Whats the BNE acronym?
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: PaulP on January 27, 2021, 08:27:44 am
Whats the BNE acronym?

Brisbane. The thread relates to an incident in Alexandra Hills, in Brisbane.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: cookie2 on January 27, 2021, 08:28:55 am
This is an absolutely horrific incident.  I  am at a loss as to what could be done with the perpetrator. It's hard though for me to imagine how such a person could ever fit into society and it does bring out the instinct for severe retribution.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Professer E on January 27, 2021, 09:15:41 am
Never to be released.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: capcom on January 27, 2021, 09:17:58 am
Now find out he was on drugs as well.   
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: sandsmere on January 27, 2021, 09:20:33 am
Never to be released.

Spot-on Prof.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: DJC on January 27, 2021, 09:42:20 am
Without detracting from this person’s appalling behaviour, how do you steal a newish Landcruiser without the keys?
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Thryleon on January 27, 2021, 10:11:55 am
Without detracting from this person’s appalling behaviour, how do you steal a newish Landcruiser without the keys?

You probably steal the keys first.

I am gobsmacked at the lack of moral fibre in these people.


Its hardly surprising.  We are too busy worrying about a lot of crap that will achieve nothing aside from a faux representation of equality rather than actually setting standards with respect to conduct and behaviour.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Professer E on January 27, 2021, 01:47:01 pm
Equality, like respect,  works both ways
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 27, 2021, 03:52:28 pm
So a 17 year mongrel kid out on bail (again) with a record of 50 previous offences, steals a 4WD, road rages on BNE streets, rolls the vehicle and ends up killing an innocent couple and their unborn child yesterday.  Fled the scene and attempted to steal another car.  Facing children's court today.

Charged with murder by the cops.  What justice would you exact?


My answer would be extremely unpopular and politically incorrect, but you can imagine what it is. The cost to society is around 25cents.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: LP on January 27, 2021, 04:11:12 pm
How do you steal a newish Landcruiser without the keys?
Yes, one wonders how long it will be before cars are effectively disabled without the owners presence or permission?

Phones are more secure at the moment than vehicles! :o
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: tonyo on January 28, 2021, 11:27:06 am
Without detracting from this person’s appalling behaviour, how do you steal a newish Landcruiser without the keys?

Probably carjacking....?  Far less sophisticated, but little knowledge of car electrics required.  Based on the history presented, I would suggest this perpetrator has no qualms using this method.

And as for fronting Children's Court, at what stage does the ice get too thin?
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 28, 2021, 12:11:00 pm
So a 17 year mongrel kid out on bail (again) with a record of 50 previous offences, steals a 4WD, road rages on BNE streets, rolls the vehicle and ends up killing an innocent couple and their unborn child yesterday.  Fled the scene and attempted to steal another car.  Facing children's court today.

Charged with murder by the cops.  What justice would you exact?



When you read that a couple and their unborn child were killed due to the criminal activity of a 17 year old, most of us go straight to vengeance - dash out the pr1ck's brains on a rock, kind of stuff.

Justice is a funny word these days. It did meant something, once. Then along came lawyers. Then as lawyers became smarter, more manipulative, more charming and even theatrical... accountability became watered down, and 'negotiable'. Very wealthy people and organisations know that. Hell, lawyers are taught how to 'use/manipulate the system'.

So if our 17 year old alleged murderer gets the right lawyers... why, heck, there's diminished responsibility due to drugs, then there's mental health issues, awful upbringing issues and the mitigation list continues. So it ends up being 4th degree manslaughter and 3 years... or something like that. And mum and dad and their unborn remain dead.

So, in the interests of equity (forget justice, that was bought and sold yonks ago), what do we do? (Remembering that equity, in this context, is the application of the spirit of a law (and not so much the letter-of-the-law), where fairness is paramount.)

Scenarios like this will just keep repeating until we make serious, very serious progress in:

Addressing in a meaningful way all the components that contributed to a person ending up so fck up that they flagrantly break the law and cause so much damage, criminal damage, life ending damage.

Get a far, far greater understanding of mental health/illness... holy cr@p, it's at the very core of so much criminality.

Prevention culture/attitude.

Truly understand that mitigation (eg mental health issue) may explain the crime but in no way whatsoever excuses, moderates or lessens the crime in any way at all. So, regardless, accountability needs to remain paramount.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Thryleon on January 28, 2021, 12:58:50 pm
^^

I know this seems a bit contrary, but the tragedy of the ending of 3 lives, is only exacerbated by ending the 4th.  This person is going to have to learn to live with themselves, and will one day come to the realisation that their own actions brought the premature ending of an entire family.

I actually think thats a greater punishment to have to live with those actions.

The punishment of having the shame of this action hanging over your head for the rest of your life would arguably be much worse than anything else.

The vindictive side of me, would make the perpetrator of this crime write a biography of the people he killed and ensure it is complete, and compiled with as much accuracy as possible.  Birth records, marriage records, ultra sound photos of the unborn child, all compiled and placed into a scrap book in memory of those lives he ended.

If this doesnt cause the right level of torture and punishment nothing ever will, and it will ensure that this person doesnt make a similar mistake again (or will drive them mad).  Either way, its a Just outcome and one that this person is deserving of.


Of course we should lock this person up so they are no longer able to harm anyone else and are actually punished for their actions, but the torture I outlayed above is well beyond any sort of physical pain you could hope to impart on him.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Lods on January 28, 2021, 01:20:30 pm
I live about five minutes from Alexandra Hills
One of the problems here is that social media is coming into play on local chat groups.
Folks are fired up and calling for blood. Names (accurate or not) and previous offences and history (accurate or not) are being made public which in the case of current legislation and practice presents a problem for Police trying to build their case.
You can argue that should be in the public domain (I reckon at 17 it probably should)but....
While we hope for a fair trial with a significant penalty it would terrible if information that should not have been disclosed prejudices any procedure.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 28, 2021, 02:00:15 pm
When you read that a couple and their unborn child were killed due to the criminal activity of a 17 year old, most of us go straight to vengeance - dash out the pr1ck's brains on a rock, kind of stuff.

Justice is a funny word these days. It did meant something, once. Then along came lawyers. Then as lawyers became smarter, more manipulative, more charming and even theatrical... accountability became watered down, and 'negotiable'. Very wealthy people and organisations know that. Hell, lawyers are taught how to 'use/manipulate the system'.

So if our 17 year old alleged murderer gets the right lawyers... why, heck, there's diminished responsibility due to drugs, then there's mental health issues, awful upbringing issues and the mitigation list continues. So it ends up being 4th degree manslaughter and 3 years... or something like that. And mum and dad and their unborn remain dead.

So, in the interests of equity (forget justice, that was bought and sold yonks ago), what do we do? (Remembering that equity, in this context, is the application of the spirit of a law (and not so much the letter-of-the-law), where fairness is paramount.)

Scenarios like this will just keep repeating until we make serious, very serious progress in:

Addressing in a meaningful way all the components that contributed to a person ending up so fck up that they flagrantly break the law and cause so much damage, criminal damage, life ending damage.

Get a far, far greater understanding of mental health/illness... holy cr@p, it's at the very core of so much criminality.

Prevention culture/attitude.

Truly understand that mitigation (eg mental health issue) may explain the crime but in no way whatsoever excuses, moderates or lessens the crime in any way at all. So, regardless, accountability needs to remain paramount.

Our Justice system is based on the premise that it offers rehabilitation not just punishment and especially for minors.
Frustrating for those who want instant gratification and offenders fried in a chair or swinging from a gallows but thats
what evolution and education has provided modern society.
Mental illness is a card that gets played every day in courts as offenders look to dumb their sentence down and serve time in mental health institutions rather than jail and its an area of law that needs more attention IMHO.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: capcom on January 28, 2021, 02:04:16 pm
We can grieve for the couple, their unborn child but what of their extended families. 

They've got a forever haunted future.  Just as he should.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Professer E on January 28, 2021, 02:13:06 pm
There's justice and there's retribution.  The legal system supposedly offers the first ,  and if the other comes into play,  the legal system certainly will.

One thing I've noticed recently is the total absence of the concept of responsibility for one's actions in the various debates.   Since when does upbringing,  ingestion of drugs or mental state excuse one of basic responsibilities and moral obligations? 
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Thryleon on January 28, 2021, 05:32:41 pm
There's justice and there's retribution.  The legal system supposedly offers the first ,  and if the other comes into play,  the legal system certainly will.

One thing I've noticed recently is the total absence of the concept of responsibility for one's actions in the various debates.   Since when does upbringing,  ingestion of drugs or mental state excuse one of basic responsibilities and moral obligations? 

Its become a national past time to dodge responsibility for anything including making decisions.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 28, 2021, 06:20:17 pm
Our legal system doesn't dish out justice, its pathetic. A bloke can murder his wife, put her in the boot of the car, drive her to the country, put her in a hole under a log and its called manslaughter. Result? 9 years B&B courtesy of HRH. Mind you, I am certain  the daughter did it and the Old Man is taking the blame for it but that's another story. Justice in this joint is stuffed and as someone else said, blame the parasite lawyers and weak as piss judges. We need serious legal reform. As for the maggot 17 year old, no hope for rehab, he'll be in and out of jail for the rest of his life. Save taxpayer money now by spending 25c. Ill gladly do it.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 28, 2021, 07:03:28 pm
Our legal system doesn't dish out justice, its pathetic. A bloke can murder his wife, put her in the boot of the car, drive her to the country, put her in a hole under a log and its called manslaughter. Result? 9 years B&B courtesy of HRH. Mind you, I am certain  the daughter did it and the Old Man is taking the blame for it but that's another story. Justice in this joint is stuffed and as someone else said, blame the parasite lawyers and weak as piss judges. We need serious legal reform. As for the maggot 17 year old, no hope for rehab, he'll be in and out of jail for the rest of his life. Save taxpayer money now by spending 25c. Ill gladly do it.
Agree Justice is too lenient in Australia eg Our Porche driver on the Eastern involved with the loss of four police officers...think you will be disappointed when he comes to trial.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 28, 2021, 09:04:45 pm
Agree Justice is too lenient in Australia eg Our Porche driver on the Eastern involved with the loss of four police officers...think you will be disappointed when he comes to trial.
Agree, another evil human being. He'll get off, his time in jail whilst on remand is the only jail time he will see.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 28, 2021, 09:18:23 pm
Our Justice system is based on the premise that it offers rehabilitation not just punishment...

Talk to anyone involved in the criminal justice system who is truly objective and they'll tell you what an abject failure rehab is - it's a standing gag that prison is a revolving door. Not that the idea doesn't have merit, and the folks conducting it aren't well-meaning/intentioned, just we do not know how to be really successful at meaningful/lasting rehab/change yet. Meanwhile, we fail to protect society from sick individuals prone to violence. A huge and complex subject deserving of a thread all on its own.

Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 28, 2021, 09:24:08 pm
Our legal system doesn't dish out justice, its pathetic. A bloke can murder his wife, put her in the boot of the car, drive her to the country, put her in a hole under a log and its called manslaughter. Result? 9 years B&B courtesy of HRH. Mind you, I am certain  the daughter did it and the Old Man is taking the blame for it but that's another story. Justice in this joint is stuffed and as someone else said, blame the parasite lawyers and weak as piss judges. We need serious legal reform. As for the maggot 17 year old, no hope for rehab, he'll be in and out of jail for the rest of his life. Save taxpayer money now by spending 25c. Ill gladly do it.

One of the key reasons that retribution -- 25cent lead bullet to the brain stem -- doesn't work, and in fact only makes things worse, is that, in this case, the 17 year alleged murderer has friends and family, and when you drop one of theirs, they'll drop you or one of yours... and so the cycle continues. And all the while a mum & dad and their unborn remain dead.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: LP on January 29, 2021, 08:14:56 am
Shooting, hanging, injecting, electrocuting, stoning or beheading people isn't justice.

Justice is rotting in a cell devoid of freedom for an eternity, death is a relief from that!
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 29, 2021, 10:05:51 am
Shooting, hanging, injecting, electrocuting, stoning or beheading people isn't justice.

Justice is rotting in a cell devoid of freedom for an eternity, death is a relief from that!

It was once said of capital punishment that it is nothing more than 'sanitized vengeance'. As I wrote previously, vengeance only begets vengeance.

To me the first reason for incarcerating any criminal is not punishment but to protect the community from that individual.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Professer E on January 29, 2021, 10:18:49 am
As above.... To protect the community has to be the primary goal.   So to this end,  how can this individual ever be trusted to walk free within the community ever again?

Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 29, 2021, 11:04:17 am
As above.... To protect the community has to be the primary goal.   So to this end,  how can this individual ever be trusted to walk free within the community ever again?



Absolutely, Professory.

Even though I work in the mental health field I have long advocated for far heavier penalties for criminal activity. Why? Because longer jail time for offenders means the community is protected for longer. And having worked for decades in mental health I am well aware of its success rate on working with offenders, or the lack thereof. Don't get me started on the effectiveness of anger management courses etc (which I've run!!!!). Anger is a far greater issue than any 6 week course can alter significantly, or... enough to prevent another crime. Show me any angry man and I'll show you a trail of destruction behind him... physical, psychological or both.

Although mental health issues may explain why it happened it does not, nor should it ever, cause a more sympathetic sentence. Sympathy, first and foremost, is for the victim(s)... their voice(s) are not being heard loud enough in today's legal system (charade).

Once your actions have led to the death or traumatic harm (rape, psychological abuse etc) of another human being or a number of human beings, I do not care how compelling the mitigation is... the community has a right to feel protected from that individual for a very long time, much longer than so many sentences are today.

I find myself completely intolerant of a legal system that 'negotiates' justice, does 'deals' around criminal punishment.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 29, 2021, 01:20:11 pm
One of the key reasons that retribution -- 25cent lead bullet to the brain stem -- doesn't work, and in fact only makes things worse, is that, in this case, the 17 year alleged murderer has friends and family, and when you drop one of theirs, they'll drop you or one of yours... and so the cycle continues. And all the while a mum & dad and their unborn remain dead.
But said 17 ahole will never kill another mother and unborn child again, or anyone else for that matter. As for his scum friends and family seeking retribution, good luck with that. 50 Priors, how many chances does a person get? There is no deterrent, no proper paying of dues to society, no rehab hope. Mother and unborn child going about their lawful business remain dead, their loved ones destroyed for life. Think about that for a moment, it breaks my heart and makes me tear up.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: capcom on January 29, 2021, 02:00:17 pm
Ask Bilal Skaf (lebo rapist) how his life's going.  Another bast**d who should have been shot.

He still gets his beatings in the big house. 
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: LP on January 29, 2021, 02:03:46 pm
Ask Bilal Skaf (lebo rapist) how his life's going.  Another bast**d who should have been shot.

He still gets his beatings in the big house.
Just another CTE case in the making!
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 29, 2021, 06:52:38 pm
Ask Bilal Skaf (lebo rapist) how his life's going.  Another bast**d who should have been shot.

He still gets his beatings in the big house. 
I hope the punch the living fark out of him to within an inch of his life every day for the rest of his scum life.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 29, 2021, 10:43:01 pm
But said 17 ahole will never kill another mother and unborn child again, or anyone else for that matter. As for his scum friends and family seeking retribution, good luck with that. 50 Priors, how many chances does a person get? There is no deterrent, no proper paying of dues to society, no rehab hope. Mother and unborn child going about their lawful business remain dead, their loved ones destroyed for life. Think about that for a moment, it breaks my heart and makes me tear up.

I understand your anger, I felt exactly the same thing.

But if we look around the globe seeking injustice, it is breathtaking just how much tragedy and death there is due to human illness, manipulation, arrogance and just plain stupidity. Just one example would be the many families in the US who are mourning the death of loved ones from Covid due to a President and other conservative politicians who didn't take it seriously or who thought economics were more important than human life, or that it was a conspiracy. To me they're just as culpable as a 17 year old criminal responsible for the deaths of 3 innocent people. They all have blood on their hands.

I could come up with lots more examples of how white collar criminals bankrupt and ruin innocent, hard working folks, driving some to suicide. When it comes to injustice, it comes in all shapes and sizes.

In the words of Martin Luther King jr., "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 30, 2021, 07:51:04 am
I understand your anger, I felt exactly the same thing.

But if we look around the globe seeking injustice, it is breathtaking just how much tragedy and death there is due to human illness, manipulation, arrogance and just plain stupidity. Just one example would be the many families in the US who are mourning the death of loved ones from Covid due to a President and other conservative politicians who didn't take it seriously or who thought economics were more important than human life, or that it was a conspiracy. To me they're just as culpable as a 17 year old criminal responsible for the deaths of 3 innocent people. They all have blood on their hands.

I could come up with lots more examples of how white collar criminals bankrupt and ruin innocent, hard working folks, driving some to suicide. When it comes to injustice, it comes in all shapes and sizes.

In the words of Martin Luther King jr., "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Analogous but at the same time different in my mind. I just can't see reason in cases like this as you do, you clearly have a experience in this area and I appreciate your voice of reason. Thankfully I'm not in charge, prisons would be empty and cemeteries would be full (of the scourge of society). I have issues with scum who have priors, lists as long as your arm, who just don't learn and are put back into society. Or dangerous individuals who are granted bail only to commit further serious offences. I am not as naive as to think we can stop this occurring altogether, but I do think a lot tougher penalties and reform around granting of bail is needed in this country pronto. Our legal system seems to favour the perp rather than the victim IMO.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 30, 2021, 09:47:16 am
Analogous but at the same time different in my mind. I just can't see reason in cases like this as you do, you clearly have a experience in this area and I appreciate your voice of reason. Thankfully I'm not in charge, prisons would be empty and cemeteries would be full (of the scourge of society). I have issues with scum who have priors, lists as long as your arm, who just don't learn and are put back into society. Or dangerous individuals who are granted bail only to commit further serious offences. I am not as naive as to think we can stop this occurring altogether, but I do think a lot tougher penalties and reform around granting of bail is needed in this country pronto. Our legal system seems to favour the perp rather than the victim IMO.

Same page. Absolutely on the same page. So often the leniency given to perps (blue collar or white collar crims) is a bloody great whack in the face to the victims. And a system that knowingly sends dangerous/broken/mentally ill people back onto the streets is seriously fckd up, seriously in need of an overhaul - huge overhaul. It's a cliche that judges, once setting a certain crim free, KNOW they'll see him or her again soon.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: capcom on January 30, 2021, 10:15:44 am
I'm a little over the Trump thumping re covid as (1) it has nothing to do with this thread and (2) if it did, it's contentious, but see below.

The coronavirus was still a far-away problem in Wuhan when U.S. President Donald Trump announced a ban on travel from China in late January 2020. Six weeks later, as the coronavirus ravaged Italy, Trump closed travel from Europe.

https://theconversation.com/travelers-coming-from-italy-may-have-driven-first-us-covid-19-wave-more-than-those-from-china-study-suggests-153843
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 30, 2021, 12:31:29 pm
I'm a little over the Trump thumping re covid as (1) it has nothing to do with this thread and (2) if it did, it's contentious, but see below.

The coronavirus was still a far-away problem in Wuhan when U.S. President Donald Trump announced a ban on travel from China in late January 2020. Six weeks later, as the coronavirus ravaged Italy, Trump closed travel from Europe.

https://theconversation.com/travelers-coming-from-italy-may-have-driven-first-us-covid-19-wave-more-than-those-from-china-study-suggests-153843

This thread is titled, 'justice'. In the minds of most scientifically minded/medically knowledgeable people, Trump committed an awful crime (inJUSTICE) against his people by minimizing Covid. In this argument, where Covid came from is not the issue, it's what Trump did (or didn't do) once he was made aware of the magnitude of the problem. He even admitted 'playing it down'. Do you recall he labelled the Covid virus a hoax? As did most of the far right...QAnon and like minded, in fact many still do see it as a hoax or nothing more than a bad flu. Have a listen to what Fauci says about the difference between working for Trump V the new administration.

So where is the justice for the families of those who have dead loved ones from Covid in the US? Yes, the degree of his culpability is debatable, but what is not debatable is his huge contribution to the poor management of this virus in his country. He was in the position to do much, much more than he did.

What about how he manipulated the JUSTICE systems to avoid prosecution re bankruptcies? Taxes. When a project of his goes bankrupt, who suffers? Have you read the numerous reports of devastated families whose businesses went to the wall because Trump didn't pay them? Where's the justice for them? And they number in the thousands. In my own life I have sat with self employed folks who've been devastated by white collar criminals - specifically, non-payment of bills sending them to the wall... for two families I recall vividly, holding their hands as they grieved for the suicide of their husband/father. All hard working, honest people. Innocent victims of charming, smooth talking white collar crims... and none are in prison.

Being self-employed myself I know what it is like to depend on people paying their bills so my family can live... and pay our bills and our taxes. Trump cares nil about such things, as is the nature of the narcissist/sociopath mental illness... or do you excuse/justify his behaviour due to his mental illness?

I didn't realise that you are a Trump apologist/fan and that your interpretation of 'justice' is so selective as to exclude the pain inflicted on the community by white collar criminals. Sorry mate, but your boy is a criminal with a lot of blood on his hands.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on January 30, 2021, 12:34:01 pm
I'm a little over the Trump thumping re covid ...what about the millions of grieving people in the US, I bet they're not 'over it'.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: capcom on January 30, 2021, 01:08:46 pm
I didn't realise that you are a Trump apologist/fan and that your interpretation of 'justice' is so selective as to exclude the pain inflicted on the community by white collar criminals. Sorry mate, but your boy is a criminal with a lot of blood on his hands.

You didn't realise it for the bloody good reason is I'm on record on the CSC site as saying I'm not.  Look it up before labelling me.
Title: Re: Justice
Post by: Baggers on February 01, 2021, 09:27:09 am
You didn't realise it for the bloody good reason is I'm on record on the CSC site as saying I'm not.  Look it up before labelling me.


It was certainly not my intention to label you but can see that I have stepped over the mark in my response to you and for that I unreservedly apologize - unfair, unwarranted.

I feel extremely passionate about 'justice' or, perhaps, more accurately - injustice. Injustice at any level but that does not excuse or justify in any way my 'injustice' toward you. I really am sorry, mate. If we ever meet... off to the pub, all shouts on me.