I thought I’d throw this one out for discussion. The fact is the guy can move and would be a challenge for any team bombing into their forward 50. Ok, he’s not the most agile, but he ain’t bad and his field kicking is generally ok.
Another benefit would be moving Jones out to the wing, which would mean that I wouldn’t need to bring an oxygen tank to the footy each week as I hold my breath with every kick me takes in D50.
Weitering FB, Casboult CHB and Marchbank third tall.
Food for thought!
Pass.
Unless Harry McKay gets injured Casboult will be playing in the reserves in 2019.
Not a fan, if this was a realistic option you would have thought it would have been tried, can't remember that happening. Our key defenders have started to to have some experience there and don't believe adding Levi will be of benifit . We are flush with , re genuine defenders with out trying to manufacture a role for some one , who hasn't really created his space. If we weren't so desperate at times he wouldn't have played the games he has
I think Levi's card is marked and will only be getting senior games due to injuries to other players. He may surprise us but I'm not expecting too much.
The deficiencies in Casboult’s toolkit that limit his effectiveness as a forward would be exploited by most key forwards.
SOS made it clear that Levi is there to provide ruck depth and, hopefully, he won’t have to be called on.
Not smart enough, not fast enough and not hard enough. This is it for Levi, just can't see him getting a gig at all in the seniors this year even if we had another horrific run with injuries. I reckon he'll even struggle at the bullants.
An Interesting thought, and not to be ignored. However, I don't think we'll do it.
[1] Levi doesn't have the recovery on the ground that many of the better forwards have.
[2] Given a free run at the ball, he would take quite a few marks in defence.
[3] Levi isn't hard enough. I was watching his 1st season a few days ago and Levi chased and tackled. If he did that now, he wouldn't have been dropped to the 2nds.
[4] Levi's body work isn't that great, but it might be good enough to put someone else off.
[5] Levi would be butchered on the lead. He doesn't have the football smarts to react to a leading forward.
[6] Levi's kicking is better than it was, but you wouldn't want him kicking out.
Could work. I know people rubbish Jones but I like him in defence, reinvented himself. Levi could do the same. He could replace Rowe as the gorilla minder.
New rules for 2019 could see all sorts of changes we wouldn't normally think about, it will be interesting to see the different tactics teams use.
New rules for 2019 could see all sorts of changes we wouldn't normally think about, it will be interesting to see the different tactics teams use.
And if we can be ahead of the game with some radical ideas to exploit the rule changes, it would be more than a welcome change.
A longshot....but careers have been saved before with similar experiments.
Give him a half a dozen games in the VFL in a defensive role.
That would give you a good idea as to whether it was an experiment worth continuing.
Dont see Levi at CHB..too slow and unreliable with his disposal...Goddard is the backup KP defender and I believe Kerr will be given opportunities down back too.....Levi has been on the trade table for two trade periods now without a bite.....he is backup for Mckay, Charlie only and maybe ruck backup but we all know he is history next delist period.
He is a back up for McKay.
Dont see Levi at CHB..too slow and unreliable with his disposal...Goddard is the backup KP defender and I believe Kerr will be given opportunities down back too.....Levi has been on the trade table for two trade periods now without a bite.....he is backup for Mckay, Charlie only and maybe ruck backup but we all know he is history next delist period.
Sam Rowe was slower than Levi and had worse disposal skills. Agree re Goddard and there is also Macreadie.
For all his faults Rowe made a lot of spoils and allowed others eg Jones to play preferred positions. He was our only option on the bigger marking types eg Petrie.
Levi is pigeon hole as the back up second ruck. SOS outlined thus in an interview after trade week.
Sam Rowe was slower than Levi and had worse disposal skills. Agree re Goddard and there is also Macreadie.
Yep. but i don't think we're light on down back...
For all his faults Rowe made a lot of spoils and allowed others eg Jones to play preferred positions. He was our only option on the bigger marking types eg Petrie.
Levi is pigeon hole as the back up second ruck. SOS outlined thus in an interview after trade week.
What would SOS know Prof?
;)
Just reporting what I heard. For us to get better as a team kids have to go past the likes of Levi.
Just reporting what I heard. For us to get better as a team kids have to go past the likes of Levi.
Agree and I’d love for Macreadie go become the latter day Peter Dean, but wouldn’t mind trialling Levi through the VFL at CHB. Not too dissimilar to J McGovern but perhaps not as agile or as good a kick.
Just reporting what I heard. For us to get better as a team kids have to go past the likes of Levi.
I heard the same comments from SOS and the fragility of our rucks - and a year to run on his contract - is why Levi is still on the list. He’s not backup for Harry as some folk maintain.
I’m expecting Levi to spend most of the season in the NBs but, with the new rules and my record for infallibility, he could play every game and kick 50 goals ????
Levi isnt a ruckman and never has been , he played as a Full Forward at U18 level.....if our rucks are so fragile why are the fragile ones still on the list and not replaced with the less fragile variety.....
Levi isnt a ruckman and never has been , he played as a Full Forward at U18 level.....if our rucks are so fragile why are the fragile ones still on the list and not replaced with the less fragile variety.....
That's not right EB; Levi is a ruckman/forward with the emphasis on ruck - and he played as a ruckman for the Stingrays. Apart from his 2016 season, which seems to be a knee injury aberration, his role has been as a ruckman - and key forward when not in the ruck. If you can't see that then you're not watching the same games that I watch. Of course, you could be right and SOS and the stats are wrong, but I don't think so :)
As for hanging on to fragile ruckmen, gambling on Kreuzer having a good season is a solid bet, Phillips has potential and is contracted and De Koning and Lobbe provide decent backup. With the exception of De Koning, none of that lot can hold down a key forward spot while not rucking and that's justification for hanging on to Levi as a backup ruckman.
If there had have been any takers for Levi he would have been let go, without much hesitation imo. Since.there were not then we may as well hang on to him as a back up ruck to see out his contract; that's the club thinking imo, and it is a case of making the best of the situation rather than anything else. Levi is no big deal for us - just seeing out his time. I'd love to see that change, BUT..........
Sam Rowe was slower than Levi and had worse disposal skills. Agree re Goddard and there is also Macreadie.
slower debateable.
Worse skills absolutely not. Rowe was a better kick than Levi
slower debateable.
Worse skills absolutely not. Do we was a better kick than Levi
When you think about it, Rowe was OK as a key defender despite lacking pace, hopeless below his knees, prone to fumbling and dropping simple marks, slow to react and unable to deliver the ball with precision. What he did have was determination and doggedness.
slower debateable.
Worse skills absolutely not. Do we was a better kick than Levi.
I think it's fair to say that in a straight line with a run up Levi was probably faster. But being faster doesn't stop you from being slow, and Levi's problem is he has not so much blacking pace but being slow to react. Starting side-by-side they might see a contest but Rowe would always get there first. Where it really shows up is in Levi's ruck work, he's a one step at a time man and by the time he's recovered from the tap the game has moved on, it's such a contrast next to a fit Kreuzer.
But we have to keep in mind Kreuzer is exceptional and most Carlton fans don't appreciate that fact, how SpecialK hasn't been AA two or three times is a disgrace!
That's not right EB; Levi is a ruckman/forward with the emphasis on ruck - and he played as a ruckman for the Stingrays. Apart from his 2016 season, which seems to be a knee injury aberration, his role has been as a ruckman - and key forward when not in the ruck. If you can't see that then you're not watching the same games that I watch. Of course, you could be right and SOS and the stats are wrong, but I don't think so :)
As for hanging on to fragile ruckmen, gambling on Kreuzer having a good season is a solid bet, Phillips has potential and is contracted and De Koning and Lobbe provide decent backup. With the exception of De Koning, none of that lot can hold down a key forward spot while not rucking and that's justification for hanging on to Levi as a backup ruckman.
Sorry DJ cant agree...watched him play about 6 games in 2009 for Dandenong in the TAC and they were all at FF, think he kicked 40 plus that season and was close to leading goalkicker, he didnt do that playing in the ruck.
Think he got a promotion/spot on the senior list replacing the injury prone Luke Mitchell too as a KP Forward not as a ruckman...IMO he has always been more of a KP forward than a ruckman and not the other way around....
Sorry DJ cant agree...watched him play about 6 games in 2009 for Dandenong in the TAC and they were all at FF, think he kicked 40 plus that season and was close to leading goalkicker, he didnt do that playing in the ruck.
Think he got a promotion/spot on the senior list replacing the injury prone Luke Mitchell too as a KP Forward not as a ruckman...IMO he has always been more of a KP forward than a ruckman and not the other way around....
Before that he hadn't played FF at all.
Levi was always a junior ruck and an average ruck at that, but at TAC Cup level he wasn't fit enough so they camped him at FF. It was my biggest argument against drafting him as a full forward, he had only ever played FF one season and was a giant against boys!
So everyone's right....
Let's move on, Levi would have to pull a rabbit, no six, out of a hat to play many more games for CFC short of a major run of injury....
Sorry DJ cant agree...watched him play about 6 games in 2009 for Dandenong in the TAC and they were all at FF, think he kicked 40 plus that season and was close to leading goalkicker, he didnt do that playing in the ruck.
Think he got a promotion/spot on the senior list replacing the injury prone Luke Mitchell too as a KP Forward not as a ruckman...IMO he has always been more of a KP forward than a ruckman and not the other way around....
From Blueseum:
When the 2012 season got underway, pundits agreed that a fitter, more mature Casboult was likely to play senior football sooner rather than later. Early in the first VFL game of the year against Coburg however, Levi crashed to the turf with a torn posterior cruciate ligament in a knee – an injury that eventually cost him 14 weeks on the sidelines. Back to fitness again in mid-July, Casboult found himself playing for a club in real danger of missing the finals. After a slashing start to the year, the Blues had been devastated by injury, to the extent that by round 17, all four of the club’s front-line ruckmen; Matthew Kreuzer, Shaun Hampson, Robert Warnock and Sam Rowe were unavailable through injury, illness or suspension.
Therefore, Levi was called to the colours at last in less than ideal circumstances – with the huge task of leading Carlton’s rucks on debut, against a Western Bulldogs side with a full complement of big men. As expected, he was out-gunned by the bulk and experience of Bulldog Wil Minson - yet he stuck to his task, took some strong marks around the ground, and was one of the key factors in Carlton’s gutsy 18-point win.
Over the following five weeks, Levi maintained his place in Carlton’s team and showed constant improvement. He kicked his first career goal against Richmond at the MCG on a Saturday night in round 18, and stamped himself as a key forward prospect with a breakout game against Essendon in round 21. In front of 60,000 spectators on that Saturday afternoon at the MCG, Casboult made everybody sit up and take notice when he took six big marks and kicked three goals as Carlton shredded the Bombers. The second of those majors; a right-foot, over-the-shoulder snap from 50 metres out on the boundary, was a viable Goal of the Year contender - surpassed only by his tenacious chase and tackle on Bomber speedster Courtney Dempsey during the third quarter.
There’s a lot more about his junior footy days as a ruckman, including his first two seasons with the Stingrays
Like many of our recent key forwards, Levi was a ruckman first and foremost. He has probably enjoyed more success than the other ruckmen we’ve tried to turn into key forwards but he is still a ruckman who can play forward.
I like the idea of trialing Kerr as a CHB.
Would give him a lot better chance of finding a spot in the team if he was more than a lead up forward.
I like the idea of trialing Kerr as a CHB.
Would give him a lot better chance of finding a spot in the team if he was more than a lead up forward.
I think that Kerr is well equipped for a role in defence. From what I have seen of him, he is a natural footballer who reads the play well and makes good position. However, I think that he will struggle to force his way into the team, at either end of the ground.
Interesting in seeing Kerr try CHB. He looks like he can really play but won't get the chance forward.
Interesting in seeing Kerr try CHB. He looks like he can really play but won't get the chance forward.
x2....Kerr has some grunt/skills but with Charlie, Harry and the Governor General wont be getting much action near the goals.....
I'd be trialing Kerr at CHB and giving him a run down back in the JLT series....
x2....Kerr has some grunt/skills but with Charlie, Harry and the Governor General wont be getting much action near the goals.....
I'd be trialing Kerr at CHB and giving him a run down back in the JLT series....
X3. Well worth a try.
We have Kieran Collins training at the NBs and a number of slots available.
We have Kieran Collins training at the NBs and a number of slots available.
Bring back Rowe.
Can someone explain why we need another key defender?
Can someone explain why we need another key defender?
We don’t. We need a small defender and half backs who can carry the ball and kick straight.
We don’t.
We will be able to better answer that question after a few games. At the moment it looks like we don't need Kerr as a key forward either? Why not see what he's got re. both roles and we would be then in a better position should we need to fill a KPF or KPD role as the season unfolds. He is on the list, let's be prepared to get max value from him as the year unfolds.
Can someone explain why we need another key defender?
Lost Rowe and ACOS and now only have Weitering and Jones who had indifferent seasons in 2018......Goddard is the only true KP backup and when you are picking up the trash from
Stkilda's nature strip that doesnt bode well IMO.
Weitering isnt a one on one defender IMO and his best is usually in the loose intercept role as is Marchbank who isnt big enough to mind the real big blokes.....
McReadie..a kid still learning the game and trying to find a position.....
Jones is either great or terrible which makes him unreliable.....
Our midfield looks good and will get better and our forward line better equipped but its down back where I am tipping we will have most of our problems this coming season...
Lost Rowe and ACOS and now only have Weitering and Jones who had indifferent seasons in 2018......Goddard is the only true KP backup and when you are picking up the trash from
Stkilda's nature strip that doesnt bode well IMO.
Weitering isnt a one on one defender IMO and his best is usually in the loose intercept role as is Marchbank who isnt big enough to mind the real big blokes.....
McReadie..a kid still learning the game and trying to find a position.....
Jones is either great or terrible which makes him unreliable.....
Our midfield looks good and will get better and our forward line better equipped but its down back where I am tipping we will have most of our problems this coming season...
We didn’t really have ACOS last season and Rowe was only ever a stop gap key defender - even if he did manage 99 games. The latter certainly got the best out of himself but his fumbles and skill errors probably cost us as much as Jones at his worst. In effect, we lost one key defender from 2018, two if you count Glass-McCasker.
Replacing them is Goddard (who could be anything if he can stay on the park) and McGovern if necessary (although I would prefer him to play in front of the ball).
I have a different opinion of Weitering and I think that he will mature into a very good key defender. Jones should improve too, particularly if we have a more competitive midfield and better defensive structures and cohesion.
Marchbank and Plowman are a little light on to mind a genuine key forward but they can do it and have done it successfully in the past. However, if we are relying on them each week we will be in trouble.
Another option is Kerr, who I think could make an excellent key defender. He has the size and, from what I’ve seen, the footy smarts and attitude to do the job. Macreadie could also develop into a key defender but I would have him behind Kerr at this stage. Ben Silvagni is a long term prospect and I don’t think we’ll know what the future holds for him until the latter half of the season.
That gives us Weitering, Jones, McGovern, Goddard and Kerr with Marchbank, Plowman, Macreadie and Ben Silvagni as possible back-ups.
Pat listed at 197cm, 97kg.
He's grown and filled out.....
We didn’t really have ACOS last season and Rowe was only ever a stop gap key defender - even if he did manage 99 games. The latter certainly got the best out of himself but his fumbles and skill errors probably cost us as much as Jones at his worst. In effect, we lost one key defender from 2018, two if you count Glass-McCasker.
Replacing them is Goddard (who could be anything if he can stay on the park) and McGovern if necessary (although I would prefer him to play in front of the ball).
I have a different opinion of Weitering and I think that he will mature into a very good key defender. Jones should improve too, particularly if we have a more competitive midfield and better defensive structures and cohesion.
Marchbank and Plowman are a little light on to mind a genuine key forward but they can do it and have done it successfully in the past. However, if we are relying on them each week we will be in trouble.
Another option is Kerr, who I think could make an excellent key defender. He has the size and, from what I’ve seen, the footy smarts and attitude to do the job. Macreadie could also develop into a key defender but I would have him behind Kerr at this stage. Ben Silvagni is a long term prospect and I don’t think we’ll know what the future holds for him until the latter half of the season.
That gives us Weitering, Jones, McGovern, Goddard and Kerr with Marchbank, Plowman, Macreadie and Ben Silvagni as possible back-ups.
I'd really like Kerr to transition to the backline. His speed off the mark might be an issue but he's got such a level head, he's filled out and is going to struggle to get a game behind our 3 main tall forwards - I think he'd be a natural fit for the backline.
Most key defenders started out as forwards.
Isn't the old saying "mugs to the back line"? Though, I don't think he is, but he is more physically suited to defence.
Isn't the old saying "mugs to the back line"? Though, I don't think he is, but he is more physically suited to defence.
My late father used that line often....Kerr isnt a mug but opportunities down forward will be limited and his talents could be used down back and I do
hope the coaching staff can see the same and give Kerr every opportunity to develop as a key backman...much more sensible than trying to use Casboult in that role..
Isn't the old saying "mugs to the back line"? Though, I don't think he is, but he is more physically suited to defence.
I think someone said that about Gordon Collis ... and Kouta had a stint as a defender when he was out of form.
If nothing else, it has to be good for the young man’s development.
Kouta played much of his underage footy at fullback, and played as a tall defender in 98-99 when his father was suffering cancer and his heart wasn't in the game.
We used to use him for a half down back and then shift him on the ball in the second half.
It was a game changing tactic and left him fresh to use his athleticism to greater advantage at a time when he was athletically superior to the average midfielder and rotations were not used as a tactic to keep guys fresh.
We would choke the opposition for a half using tough nuggety Darren Hulme types, and then switch to Kouta mode to influence matches and take better advantage of Ratten underneath packs.
We used to use him for a half down back and then shift him on the ball in the second half.
It was a game changing tactic and left him fresh to use his athleticism to greater advantage at a time when he was athletically superior to the average midfielder and rotations were not used as a tactic to keep guys fresh.
We would choke the opposition for a half using tough nuggety Darren Hulme types, and then switch to Kouta mode to influence matches and take better advantage of Ratten underneath packs.
I remember it well, Thry. Wasn't it nice when we were ahead of the game?
Take it with a grain of salt but the gallery from today’s training includes a shot of Kerr matched up with McKay :)
Take it with a grain of salt but the gallery from today’s training includes a shot of Kerr matched up with McKay :)
Is McKay going to CHB?
Is McKay going to CHB?
Sounds like it :)
If this Kerr / McKay stuff has any legs it just highlights the time we have wasted over the last couple of years retaining Meat.
Take it with a grain of salt but the gallery from today’s training includes a shot of Kerr matched up with McKay :)
I wouldnt read too much into photos. I tell you what I did like, the conditioning of our blokes seems unreal, Charlie Curnow and Weiters look like absolute beasts. Also noticed that Faz is there with them all be it in a cast. I reckon Jack Russell will run him hard, make no mistake.
Is McKay going to CHB?
Or is Kerr going there?
If this Kerr / McKay stuff has any legs it just highlights the time we have wasted over the last couple of years retaining Meat.
Give it a rest LP.
Casboult provides a back up ruck and that's essential given Phillips' inability to get on the park and Kreuzer's ability to find novel ways to miss games.
I wouldnt read too much into photos. I tell you what I did like, the conditioning of our blokes seems unreal, Charlie Curnow and Weiters look like absolute beasts. Also noticed that Faz is there with them all be it in a cast. I reckon Jack Russell will run him hard, make no mistake.
Hence the 'grain of salt' G2C, but a similar observation led to this "Casboult to CHB" thread. As I have said previously, Kerr does have the attributes to hold down a key defender spot and I'd like to see him given an opportunity there.
You're not wrong about our blokes' conditioning; they look like world beaters. Hopefully that will translate to four quarter efforts this season.
Fas will do OK when he gets his chance.
At a club with a list many deem to be overloaded with defenders, some of the big pre-season news is a rumor that we are turning two or maybe three forwards into KPDs!
Just logical that Kerr given a shot at being a KPD - he's the right size, reads the plAY AND is a footballer.
Still only 20. He should be (potentially) groomed to be our Steven May (noting the latter is considrably shorter and lighter).
Big enough to take the gorillas.
He's behind McGovern, Big H, Charlie, Levi and arguably TDK too as a key forward.
By the time he matures - say 23, 24, Jones will be goneski.....
At a club with a list many deem to be overloaded with defenders, some of the big pre-season news is a rumor that we are turning two or maybe three forwards into KPDs!
It is the off-season LP ;)
We did lose three KPDs from our 2018 list - Rowe, ACOS and Glass McCasker - and replaced them with Goddard and Ben Silvagni (and McGovern if necessary) and Ben seems to be a season or two away from having an impact.
Just logical that Kerr given a shot at being a KPD - he's the right size, reads the plAY AND is a footballer.
Still only 20. He should be (potentially) groomed to be our Steven May (noting the latter is considrably shorter and lighter).
Big enough to take the gorillas.
He's behind McGovern, Big H, Charlie, Levi and arguably TDK too as a key forward.
By the time he matures - say 23, 24, Jones will be goneski.....
Agree...nothing further to add...
Agree...nothing further to add...
x2
Kerr is smaller than many of the other KPD options, but no doubt he has the grunt to go head to head with bigger bodies.
IMHO, it's Kerr's physicality that sees him in good stead, that period he spent rucking at VFL level(while injured) should see him through.
Unlike many fans, I don't want to see Weitering become a gorilla watcher and languishing on the last line of defense, we are not a good kicking side and I think Weitering is quite probably the best kick and decision maker at the club when he's free to do so.
Kerr is smaller than many of the other KPD options, but no doubt he has the grunt to go head to head with bigger bodies.
IMHO, it's Kerr's physicality that sees him in good stead, that period he spent rucking at VFL level(while injured) should see him through.
Unlike many fans, I don't want to see Weitering become a gorilla watcher and languishing on the last line of defense, we are not a good kicking side and I think Weitering is quite probably the best kick and decision maker at the club when he's free to do so.
Weitering has put on some beef but I dont see him being a gorilla minder either, his best role is as an intercept defender....Kerr is more naturally inclined to enjoy the physical contact stuff more
and has a bit of mongrel in his game that you cant teach.
Kerr is 197cm and 97kg now which is very adequate for CHB ....
Weitering has put on some beef but I dont see him being a gorilla minder either, his best role is as an intercept defender....Kerr is more naturally inclined to enjoy the physical contact stuff more
and has a bit of mongrel in his game that you cant teach.
Kerr is 197cm and 97kg now which is very adequate for CHB ....
I'm yet to see a game plan that can make best use of our playing list, I can't help but feel in recent times we are trading heavily to find "players who fit the plan" rather than "building a plan to fit the players." In this regard I now believe coaching is our weakest link.
Kerr is smaller than many of the other KPD options, but no doubt he has the grunt to go head to head with bigger bodies.
IMHO, it's Kerr's physicality that sees him in good stead, that period he spent rucking at VFL level(while injured) should see him through.
Unlike many fans, I don't want to see Weitering become a gorilla watcher and languishing on the last line of defense, we are not a good kicking side and I think Weitering is quite probably the best kick and decision maker at the club when he's free to do so.
Kerr is 197cm, 97kg and still only 20. Liam Jones is 198cm, Marchy, Weiters, Plow and Goddard all shorter.
Steven May is 193cm, 101kg.
Meh, reading through the playing list on the club website throws up some glaring exceptions and anyone who has spent 5 mins on the ground observing at a VFL match will show the reality.
But even so Philips and De Koning taller than McKay who is the same height as Lobbe, or Marchbank listed at roughly the same height as Charlie, Weitering or Macreadie! The only way some of these blokes are measuring roughly the same height is if you put a few of them on a rack before measuring!
I'm yet to see a game plan that can make best use of our playing list, I can't help but feel in recent times we are trading heavily to find "players who fit the plan" rather than "building a plan to fit the players." In this regard I now believe coaching is our weakest link.
That's a chicken and egg argument.
What came first the game plan or the players to play it?
The problem we have had, is having too many different types of player, which resulted in having to change the game plan to suit the players. This results in sub optimal performance by a team over a longer period of time, due to having to adjust everything and having players have to change the process to get results.
Everyone knows that the definition of madness is to repeat the same process expecting different results.
Therefore, implement a process (a game plan) and then recruit to suit it, and you will then get repeatable results.
The problem you are therefore seeing is, that we have yet to identify a game plan that we believe can work for us to recruit for.
Stripping it right back, the AFL have created this problem, because they implement rule changes to fix symptom A, which result in symptoms of problem B, C, D, which means that the game keeps changing meaning that clubs have to then change things up to suit new rules.
Moving forward, we need to identify a method of playing football, that is repeatable by the majority of different types of player, in order to come up with a game plan, that is going to be succesful irrespective of what the current rules are, in order to achieve anything. What that means is choosing whom you recruit to suit your game plan and playing group, rather than simply recruiting the best talent available, which is where we have failed in the past.
We put together a group of talented players, that have been lacking in some facets.
That's a chicken and egg argument.
What came first the game plan or the players to play it?
The problem we have had, is having too many different types of player, which resulted in having to change the game plan to suit the players. This results in sub optimal performance by a team over a longer period of time, due to having to adjust everything and having players have to change the process to get results.
Everyone knows that the definition of madness is to repeat the same process expecting different results.
Therefore, implement a process (a game plan) and then recruit to suit it, and you will then get repeatable results.
The problem you are therefore seeing is, that we have yet to identify a game plan that we believe can work for us to recruit for.
Stripping it right back, the AFL have created this problem, because they implement rule changes to fix symptom A, which result in symptoms of problem B, C, D, which means that the game keeps changing meaning that clubs have to then change things up to suit new rules.
Moving forward, we need to identify a method of playing football, that is repeatable by the majority of different types of player, in order to come up with a game plan, that is going to be succesful irrespective of what the current rules are, in order to achieve anything. What that means is choosing whom you recruit to suit your game plan and playing group, rather than simply recruiting the best talent available, which is where we have failed in the past.
We put together a group of talented players, that have been lacking in some facets.
I think this is what he successful Hawks did. From what I've read they identified key roles and had the players on the list to play those roles - each one knowing exactly what was expected of them. Wasn't the notice in their rooms "Know your Role!" ?
Therefore, implement a process (a game plan) and then recruit to suit it, and you will then get repeatable results.
In modern AFL this is an archaic losing strategy, the problem is that by the time you've built the list to suit "the plan" every opposition club knows what you are doing.
It's almost the exact opposite of what the Bulldogs did, they made rapid changes and reaped benefits, Nthmond could also be described as making radical changes. But I concede their strategies are unlikely to deliver long term repeatable results because the idea of a long term "plan" is obsolete!
Being a follower, like copying the tactics of last years premiers, is almost certainly also a losing plan as it's like being 2nd in line!
In modern AFL this is an archaic losing strategy, the problem is that by the time you've built the list to suit the plan every opposition club knows what you are doing.
It's almost the exact opposite of what the Bulldogs did, they made rapid changes and reaped benefits.
Also being a follower, copying last years premiers is almost certainly also a losing plan, it's like being 2nd in line!
That’s right LP. Successful clubs have to be ahead of the game and that means constant change. It also means that there will be seasons when the gameplan and/or list doesn’t quite work out. It’s a high risk/high reward strategy but the successful clubs are better at managing the risk.
I think that the Bulldogs lack of success after their premiership was not a hangover but a failure to improve on their gameplan and list.
That’s right LP. Successful clubs have to be ahead of the game and that means constant change. It also means that there will be seasons when the gameplan and/or list doesn’t quite work out. It’s a high risk/high reward strategy but the successful clubs are better at managing the risk.
I think that the Bulldogs lack of success after their premiership was not a hangover but a failure to improve on their gameplan and list.
It was the biggest issue I had with Mick Malthouse, he was building a list for an obsolete game plan that every opposition club knew inside out!
Not only are you battling your own clubs ability to implement the plans and recruiting, you are also battling every other clubs knowledge base on how to counteract your exposed strategies. AFL is not like football at any other level for this reason.
In modern AFL this is an archaic losing strategy, the problem is that by the time you've built the list to suit "the plan" every opposition club knows what you are doing.
It's almost the exact opposite of what the Bulldogs did, they made rapid changes and reaped benefits, Nthmond could also be described as making radical changes. But I concede their strategies are unlikely to deliver long term repeatable results because the idea of a long term "plan" is obsolete!
Being a follower, like copying the tactics of last years premiers, is almost certainly also a losing plan as it's like being 2nd in line!
Yet in sport all the world over, tactics and systems evolve and change with one constant irrespective of the code.
They all end up resembling each other in one way or another, with minor changes.
The idea that new tactics are "invented" is a complete load of bollocks, and there simply are not too many alternatives to play that sport.
Without going into too much detail on any one game plan. What worked yesterday could very well work again tomorrow, because in 5 years time the players who know how to negate will similarly have forgotten all about it, and because the rule changes will mandate different approaches (i.e. a back 7 will be negated by going into starting positions, but that doesnt mean it cannot still work).
Successful clubs have to be ahead of the game and that means constant change. It also means that there will be seasons when the gameplan and/or list doesn’t quite work out. It’s a high risk/high reward strategy but the successful clubs are better at managing the risk.
I think that the Bulldogs lack of success after their premiership was not a hangover but a failure to improve on their gameplan and list.
Sometimes being ahead of the game, is simply a matter of knowing what comes next to negate the current tactics, and you might need to go back in time to discover what comes next. Remember everything old becomes new again, because tactics are required to shift in game.
The problem with that Thry is that, in our game, the rules change annually (and are applied differently throughout a season) and what may have worked five years ago won’t work now.
All coaches would have spent the off-season developing gameplans to accommodate the new rules. Some will work well, others will have to be adjusted or abandoned. I hope that Bolts and his offsiders have come up with a gameplan that works well and is within our players’ capacity.
Of course most sports draw on other codes for ideas and inspiration but to say that inventing new techniques is bollocks is to deny the capacity for original thought that defines our species.
The problem with that Thry is that, in our game, the rules change annually (and are applied differently throughout a season) and what may have worked five years ago won’t work now.
All coaches would have spent the off-season developing gameplans to accommodate the new rules. Some will work well, others will have to be adjusted or abandoned. I hope that Bolts and his offsiders have come up with a gameplan that works well and is within our players’ capacity.
Of course most sports draw on other codes for ideas and inspiration but to say that inventing new techniques is bollocks is to deny the capacity for original thought that defines our species.
Yes, when you consider that we've been rebuilding for 5 years and started off under different competition rules, what does that say about recruiting to fit a plan! :o
The latest change, soccer or gridiron style interchange pit boards on the side line to help runners under the "new rules!" ::)
The problem with that Thry is that, in our game, the rules change annually (and are applied differently throughout a season) and what may have worked five years ago won’t work now.
I have mentioned that before, and not to dredge up too much old territory, the rule changes are to negate very specific tactics, and not to negate 100% of in game tactics. i.e. starting positions.
There is nothing to say you can't go to a back 7 after the ball is kicked, by simply having people move accordingly.
All coaches would have spent the off-season developing gameplans to accommodate the new rules. Some will work well, others will have to be adjusted or abandoned. I hope that Bolts and his offsiders have come up with a gameplan that works well and is within our players’ capacity.
I disagree with this. The hands in the back rule meant that people worked out that using a forearm was ok, and worked around it accordingly. These tactics are not that specific to be a game plan built upon them.
Of course most sports draw on other codes for ideas and inspiration but to say that inventing new techniques is bollocks is to deny the capacity for original thought that defines our species.
There is a difference between inventing a game plan or applying a game plan, and using a tactic to exploit a rule.
one is what forms how you approach a match, the other is situational.
THAT is where poo pooing any game plan is fraught with danger.
It's seems that my dismissal of the idea of Meat playing in defence was ill-founded if Josh Fraser's assessment of his VFL practice match form is any guide:
Levi Casboult
Stats: 11 disposals, four marks, four tackles, three goals
From the coach: Levi’s presence in the air was really important. He took some strong marks overhead and finished off the game really well. He played multiple positions for us — down back, in the ruck and up forward — and he showed great leadership.
DJC...it's hard to get a handle on where he sits at the moment in regards to a position. First choice forwards at the minute will be McKay, Charlie and McGovern with McKay pinch hitting in the ruck for either Kreuzer or Phillips. I can't see them taking a punt on him playing permanently in defence but it could be horses for courses if we're up against a team with 3 big forwards or a ruckman that goes forward and kicks goals...we only have Jones and Weitering at the moment and Goddard for depth I'm assuming....any reports on Goddard from the VFL if he's been playing?
If we're stuck with him, we might as well use him to his and our advantage. He's just turned 29
In fairness to Casboult, if SpecialK isn't right then Meat must surely be 2nd in line for a hybrid ruck role this week.
The thought of allowing Nankervis to beat up on McKay does my head in!
If Nthmond were playing GWS someone like Mumford would be hell bent on ending Nankervis' game, season and Nthmond's 2019 hopes knowing they were already in a perilous situation ruck wise.
Nankervis won't hesitate to try and dominate a kid like McKay in much the same way as it sets him up with a mental dominance advantage for years to come, McKay will be playing to survive such is the difference in mentalities and stages of their careers, being big enough doesn't mean you are ready to be an AFL ruckmen.
DJC...it's hard to get a handle on where he sits at the moment in regards to a position. First choice forwards at the minute will be McKay, Charlie and McGovern with McKay pinch hitting in the ruck for either Kreuzer or Phillips. I can't see them taking a punt on him playing permanently in defence but it could be horses for courses if we're up against a team with 3 big forwards or a ruckman that goes forward and kicks goals...we only have Jones and Weitering at the moment and Goddard for depth I'm assuming....any reports on Goddard from the VFL if he's been playing?
I think Meat's role will be back-up ruckman, if there is a vacancy.
Goddard did OK according to the coach:
Hugh Goddard
Stats: 14 disposals, seven marks (four contested)
From the coach: Hugh was really solid in defence, and set us up back there with his leadership and his voice. He was quite strong in the air with a few intercept marks, and his reaction time as a big defender was encouraging. It was a strong game from him.
That's encouraging to hear about Goddard. If one of Weitering or Jones went down we'd be buggered for key defenders so at least he's there for backup if needed.
That's encouraging to hear about Goddard. If one of Weitering or Jones went down we'd be buggered for key defenders so at least he's there for backup if needed.
I think if Lynch plays under this 6-6-6 rule Jones will stitch him up, Jones has already shown he can roll in the ruck at VFL level so physically he should be a match and now he has an extra year of defensive training. I suspect Jones already has Lynch covered for pace.
Nthmond will be hell bent on having Lynch take Weitering to the goal-square because Lynch has Weitering covered on the lead, but if our coaches are worth a pinch of goat crap they should ignore that and leave Jones basically tagging Lynch.
I suspect you might find Riewoldt well up the field again this season, I'm much more comfortable with Weitering one on one with Riewoldt, under the new rules and with list changes a lot of Riewoldt's chop out buddies will be ineffective.
I think if Lynch plays under this 6-6-6 rule Jones will stitch him up, Jones has already shown he can roll in the ruck at VFL level so physically he should be a match and now he has an extra year of defensive training. I suspect Jones already has Lynch covered for pace.
Nthmond will be hell bent on having Lynch take Weitering to the goal-square because Lynch has Weitering covered on the lead, but if our coaches are worth a pinch of goat crap they should ignore that and leave Jones basically tagging Lynch.
I suspect you might find Riewoldt well up the field again this season, I'm much more comfortable with Weitering one on one with Riewoldt, under the new rules and with list changes a lot of Riewoldt's chop out buddies will be ineffective.
I think Richmond will play smart and use the unfit Lynch as a decoy only to drag Jones away and look to isolate Martin close goal and have him one on one where they know the Dusty show will win out as he is too much for most defenders... Our main hope is to dominate the midfield and drag Martin back to playing as a onballer, if Richmond get enough forward opportunities we wont be able to stop them kicking goals IMO.
Agreed EB....we haven't got anybody really that can take Martin when he's sitting forward...doubt too many clubs have really. We're going to have to hope one of McKay, Curnow or McGovern can be an aerial presence up forward because that is one area we could get them.
I think Richmond will play smart and use the unfit Lynch as a decoy only to drag Jones away and look to isolate Martin close goal and have him one on one where they know the Dusty show will win out as he is too much for most defenders... Our main hope is to dominate the midfield and drag Martin back to playing as a onballer, if Richmond get enough forward opportunities we wont be able to stop them kicking goals IMO.
I doubt under the new rules any team can afford not to have their A-Grade midfield running on ball as much as possible, any suggestions of blokes like Cripps or Dusty playing forward is a furphy.
Agreed EB....we haven't got anybody really that can take Martin when he's sitting forward...doubt too many clubs have really. We're going to have to hope one of McKay, Curnow or McGovern can be an aerial presence up forward because that is one area we could get them.
Plowman is probably a decent match up for Dusty if he goes forward.
As for Jones having Lynch, Lynch ate him on toast last season the one time they went head to head.
Lynch has Jones for nous, irrespective of speed, physicality etc.
Lynch has Jones for nous, irrespective of speed, physicality etc.
I realise that, but in fairness to Jones it was like a 1st year player versus a 6th year player. I think the year before we let Lynch murder Weitering in a 1st year versus 5th year match up.
And Lynch is no Joe Average!
I doubt under the new rules any team can afford not to have their A-Grade midfield running on ball as much as possible, any suggestions of blokes like Cripps or Dusty playing forward is a furphy.
Tigers have been using Jack Graham in the middle and rotating him with Martin down forward....I think that will continue as they look to cover for Caddy who is injured.
Got no doubt that when Caddy is back that Martin will spend more time on the ball but I think the Tigers will think they can match our onballers with their other players and
that Nankervis can control the ruck with Kreuzer out. I'm happy to test that thinking and expect Cripps to dominate in the middle and give us superiority and plenty of supply to our tall forwards who have to be aggressive.
McGovern has been quiet in the JLT games but i reckon he can have a big game vs the Tigers and kick a bag...
Tigers have been using Jack Graham in the middle and rotating him with Martin down forward....I think that will continue as they look to cover for Caddy who is injured.
Got no doubt that when Caddy is back that Martin will spend more time on the ball but I think the Tigers will think they can match our onballers with their other players and
that Nankervis can control the ruck with Kreuzer out. I'm happy to test that thinking and expect Cripps to dominate in the middle and give us superiority and plenty of supply to our tall forwards who have to be aggressive.
McGovern has been quiet in the JLT games but i reckon he can have a big game vs the Tigers and kick a bag...
Please be right EB ????
Please be right EB ????
DJ...like I said previously that we can win this game and the Tigers are cocky and ripe for the picking... ;) :-X
Plowman is probably a decent match up for Dusty if he goes forward.
As for Jones having Lynch, Lynch ate him on toast last season the one time they went head to head.
Lynch has Jones for nous, irrespective of speed, physicality etc.
That time we went for that zoning game plan and made it dead easy for Lynch. Time before that, R13, 2017, when we played much closer game style, Jones held him to 10 possessions and goalless. Sadly, that was our 3rd last win.
Wonder how big a risk playing Lynch is? Triggers may be a little worried if they are taking a chance with him?
That time we went for that zoning game plan and made it dead easy for Lynch. Time before that, R13, 2017, when we played much closer game style, Jones held him to 10 possessions and goalless. Sadly, that was our 3rd last win.
Keep in mind, that he was playing for Gold Coast at the time.
As for our zoning game plan against GC last season, I don't buy it. We had Rowe, Weiters, and Jones all take him at during the game and he cut us up really easily.
The thing about a zone defense, is that you still have people playing man on man in it, you just have extra players coming to each contest.
Keep in mind, that he was playing for Gold Coast at the time.
As for our zoning game plan against GC last season, I don't buy it. We had Rowe, Weiters, and Jones all take him at during the game and he cut us up really easily.
The thing about a zone defense, is that you still have people playing man on man in it, you just have extra players coming to each contest.
No, what happened was he was often all alone because Jones was off trying to cover another man too.
Reckon 4 of his goals came in this fashion. Another time he outmarked Plowman and another Byrne pushed him in the back....
It's there on Youtube if you want to see it....
He won't play.
I thought I’d throw this one out for discussion. The fact is the guy can move and would be a challenge for any team bombing into their forward 50. Ok, he’s not the most agile, but he ain’t bad and his field kicking is generally ok.
Another benefit would be moving Jones out to the wing, which would mean that I wouldn’t need to bring an oxygen tank to the footy each week as I hold my breath with every kick me takes in D50.
Weitering FB, Casboult CHB and Marchbank third tall.
Food for thought!
Who would have thought?
Who would have thought?
Nice one JD!
There’s nothing better than being proved wrong by one of our players, particularly when it’s the much-maligned Levi.
I had my heart in my mouth a couple of times when he was looking to switch play but I suspect that he was instructed to go down the line every time he got the pill.
Well, Jones made the switch and is getting better. In time he may make a top FB. Maybe we can do the same with Casboult. At least he won't get out-marked, and his misses won't will us. Certainly the last two weeks have been very positive for Levi and could mean we have the man to take on gorillas.
He's such an assured clean mark down the back that he would need a defensive tall forward to stop him by the looks. He must be so relieved not to have to take shots at goal now that you can see his confidence building.
I was all for trying it, today proved he can do it. If nothing else, it provides another option for us. Good on Levi for embracing it, learning it and executing it for the team.
I was all for trying it, today proved he can do it. If nothing else, it provides another option for us. Good on Levi for embracing it, learning it and executing it for the team.
x 2
He's such an assured clean mark down the back that he would need a defensive tall forward to stop him by the looks. He must be so relieved not to have to take shots at goal now that you can see his confidence building.
Agree. That's the most relaxed I ever seen him in a game! Good on him, great effort.
Agree. That's the most relaxed I ever seen him in a game! Good on him, great effort.
Remember when Hendo went back for us all those years ago? He was a shambles up fwd, all of a sudden, he goes to the backline and he saw the game differently. With ball in hand, he saw the game differently. Ditto Jones who is in All Australian form, who would have thought.
Casboult did ok but I wouldnt be backing him every week to do similar, be glad to have Jones back vs Cameron, Levi deserves to stay in the team though...
Casboult did ok but I wouldnt be backing him every week to do similar, be glad to have Jones back vs Cameron, Levi deserves to stay in the team though...
Reid was almost his perfect match up for a run off the HB line, as I said in the pre-match thread Reid isn't the lightening quick player he used to be. Although, I discussed that in context of SoJ perhaps having a crack, Casboult was clearly a KPD option given his pre-season.
However, those of you who are experienced defenders will realise that hit on Plowman should never have happened, an experienced defender would not have allowed Reid to get that run at Plowman who had the fall of the ball covered. That was because of Levi's newbie status as a defender. Levi should not have allowed Reid to jump and spoil, we had the numbers. It's the reverse of Levi expecting team-mates to assist his run at the ball in the F50, it might be a hard behaviour to adjust in the short term, that is naturally looking for help rather than offering it!
I quite like the idea of Jones and Casboult being the KPD duo and leaving Weitering and Marchbank to get further up the ground on intercept and delivery duties.