If we win, I might change the name. But then, the probability of us winning does not appear to be high.
That in itself is enough to frustrate me!
Smacked at the start and never really threatened. Defense is still shocking.
Disappointing result.
2nd biggest loss under Teague. (63 points against geelong in year 1)
Some good signs from Dow.
Kennedy got better as the game went on, still not sure he's up to AFL standard though.
Still need a few of the 2nd (3rd?) tier players to step up.
Martin and Williams not doing enough for their pay packets.
Bad kicking all over the ground kept us out of the game. Entry inside 50. Shots at goal. Not good enough.
Bring in Boyd and let us see if its worth keeping him next year.
The Teague Train is not short of passengers tonight…… Betts, Park, Fogarty, Williams, Docherty, Martín for starters. The ‘rookie’ Kennedy showed the way.
Blow it up. Coach should go this week. Trade Cripps. Walsh as capitan and start again, this group is done.
The Teague Train is not short of passengers tonight…… Betts, Park, Fogarty, Williams, Docherty, Martín for starters. The ‘rookie’ Kennedy showed the way.
Teague Train well and truly derailed.
Love what Harry does but he has to kick goal when they a crucial. We were, unbelievably, within a couple of goals and nailing them would've put the game on edge (even if it was for a few minutes...lol).
We just don't seem to have that inspiring core leadership. We can play well in bursts but we are incapable of sustaining that for enough of the game to get the win. Agree with others who said Kennedy and Dow looking better, a small positive from another disappointing performance.
Teague Train well and truly derailed.
Not looking good, we might get the sacking of the coach is separate to the Review statement soon.
Just too many lazy players who wont bleed for the jumper..
Not looking good, we might get the sacking of the coach is separate to the Review statement soon.
Just too many lazy players who wont bleed for the jumper..
Terrible to watch EB, second to the footy, constantly playing from behind, poor workrate (Walsh aside).
The Cripps to Docherty handball stuff up in the last q was a nice piece of symbolism.
Harry continues to miss at crucial times.
Pittonet ridiculously getting pinged for holding the ball led to the goal which probably put things out of reach. Thanks idiot umpire.
Why does Stocker have to take the opposition’s best player every week?
Who was the guy in the coaches box who thought the game was worthy of laughing and smiling?
Not looking good, we might get the sacking of the coach is separate to the Review statement soon.
Just too many lazy players who wont bleed for the jumper..
Think he's probably resign. An insider said Teague wanted to quit before the bye. Seems they talked him out of it.
Green shoots anyone? Is it time to go back to square one and draft players with heart, endeavour, desperation
oh and that can hit a target 20m away
The Cripps to Docherty handball stuff up in the last q was a nice piece of symbolism.
Harry continues to miss at crucial times.
Pittonet ridiculously getting pinged for holding the ball led to the goal which probably put things out of reach. Thanks idiot umpire.
Why does Stocker have to take the opposition’s best player every week?
Who was the guy in the coaches box who thought the game was worthy of laughing and smiling?
If you didn't laugh you'd cry.
Terrible to watch EB, second to the footy, constantly playing from behind, poor workrate (Walsh aside).
GTC...Horrendous because GWS are not even a top 8 team and are one of the softest outfits going around.
Green shoots anyone? Is it time to go back to square one and draft players with heart, endeavour, desperation
oh and that can hit a target 20m away
We need to really weed out those who simply don't want it badly enough. Even if it 12 players. The culture must change or it is years of this 5hit.
Green shoots anyone? Is it time to go back to square one and draft players with heart, endeavour, desperation
oh and that can hit a target 20m away
Is it possible that last year was as good as this group will get? Bloody demoralising.
Think he's probably resign. An insider said Teague wanted to quit before the bye. Seems they talked him out of it.
Fair point Jim...falling on your sword is better than being hung out to dry by your playing group.
Actually feel sorry for Teague, the effort from some players tonight was disgraceful, how do you coach players who wont give you 4 quarters of effort?
Who was the guy in the coaches box who thought the game was worthy of laughing and smiling?
Another guy who will see the door… Stanton
We played 1q of good footy. Not nearly good enough. First half was a shocker. Is that a post bye thing? Probably not, but I don't know what else to think. Looked flogged out half way through q4.
I don't want to be critical but Martin, Doc, and Williams were off. Looks like it's "no Walsh no Carlton"
DeKonig, Stocker, Weiters, H (2nd half), Kennedy, Owies went ok.
Finlayson and Green took easy i50 marks and we had no answers. I wonder if the Board will have some answers soon?
Iaj. I could pick a dozen players that should not be in our squad. Sad thing is that most of them came in by SOS. Recruiting might be the first thing our review shows issues with and then player development, followed by poor skills coaching, game plan, endurance conditioning and player leadership. Not forgetting poor game day coaching changes. We are fecked.
We played 1q of good footy. Not nearly good enough. First half was a shocker. Is that a post bye thing? Probably not, but I don't know what else to think. Looked flogged out half way through q4.
I don't want to be critical but Martin, Doc, and Williams were off. Looks like it's "no Walsh no Carlton"
DeKonig, Stocker, Weiters, H (2nd half), Kennedy, Owies went ok.
Finlayson and Green took easy i50 marks and we had no answers. I wonder if the Board will have some answers soon?
I would drop Martin and Williams......mistakes I can cop but effort is a non negotiable.
Carroll and Boyd can get a run this week and I'd even give Levi another go this time as 1st ruck.
GTC...Horrendous because GWS are not even a top 8 team and are one of the softest outfits going around.
Pretty sure we win the "softest team" label
I would actually take Buckley on to a serious role. He actually wasn’t a bad coach. Missed a flag by millimeters. We miss flags by light years at the moment.
Iaj. I could pick a dozen players that should not be in our squad. Sad thing is that most of them came in by SOS. Recruiting might be the first thing our review shows issues with and then player development, followed by poor skills coaching, game plan, endurance conditioning and player leadership. Not forgetting poor game day coaching changes. We are fecked.
Please add the sports psychologist to that list. That's where assessment of mental toughness is done. Need to review those assessments and related interventions IMO. Blind Freddie can see that's one of our biggest weaknesses!
You know what I’m pissed with the club now - calling a farking public review when they did - and it was intentional! So we have to sit here and the players have to try and play knowing everything they say and do is under a microscope - halfway thru the season!
What did we think was going to happen - in a utopia you’re going to have players that kill themselves to win for the supporters jumper coach board but reality is every single one will try and save their own damn skin!
So Prez and incoming Prez, if you’re reading this - sort this fcking review quick damn smart. Players that want to be there and are worthy, sign up! Players that don’t, leave in vfl and make some decent friggen deals. Coaches that want out - GTFO.
Bring in people to want Carlton to succeed!!!!!
Fair point Jim...falling on your sword is better than being hung out to dry by your playing group.
Actually feel sorry for Teague, the effort from some players tonight was disgraceful, how do you coach players who wont give you 4 quarters of effort?
He sees this effort, he's had tragedy in his family. Fair chance he has had enough and will probably not coach next year.
Players came to us because Teague was here when he was an assistant, has had great reports before coaching us, was a brilliant coach of the Bullants getting heaps out of an average side. Problem is, when you coach a side with a bad culture that lacks drive, motivation, hunger, or basically a care factor, then you have an impossible job. The only thing that has happened under Teague is that we have been alot more scoreboard competitive (as distinct for actually competitive) and he has the 2nd best record of any coach we have had this century, even if the bar is as low as it gets. Same again. A coach gets to the 3rd year and the players essentially turn their toes up. This is the response after a review is called.
Two sides you wouldn't touch, Carlton and St.Kilda as you senior coaching careers ends right there after a few years. Ratts must've have been a genius getting two sides with such poor cultures to 4 finals series in 6 years but he's struggling with the Saints now for similar reasons.
I would actually take Buckley on to a serious role. He actually wasn’t a bad coach. Missed a flag by millimeters. We miss flags by light years at the moment.
Buckley deserves better as does David Teague.....personally I think this group needs a Ross Lyon to put an edge on a few players or break them in the process. I'm over winning /losing I just want to see some effort under the heading " team".
You know what I’m pissed with the club now - calling a farking public review when they did - and it was intentional! So we have to sit here and the players have to try and play knowing everything they say and do is under a microscope - halfway thru the season!
What did we think was going to happen - in a utopia you’re going to have players that kill themselves to win for the supporters jumper coach board but reality is every single one will try and save their on damn skin!
So Prez and incoming Prez, if you’re reading this - sort this fcking review quick damn smart. Players that want to be there and are worthy, sign up! Players that don’t, leave in vfl and make some decent friggen deals. Coaches that want out - GTFO.
Bring in people to want Carlton to succeed!!!!!
I agree. Not sure it would have made much of a difference tonight, but It's the same stunt they pulled in 2015, announcing a massive rebuild in R2. It adds more instability to what is already an unstable organisation.
He sees this effort, he's had tragedy in his family. Fair chance he has had enough and will probably not coach next year.
Players came to us because Teague was here when he was an assistant, has had great reports before coaching us, was a brilliant coach of the Bullants getting heaps out of an average side. Problem is, when you coach a side with a bad culture that lacks drive, motivation, hunger, or basically a care factor, then you have an impossible job. The only thing that has happened under Teague is that we have been alot more scoreboard competitive (as distinct for actually competitive) and he has the 2nd best record of any coach we have had this century, even if the bar is as low as it gets. Same again. A coach gets to the 3rd year and the players essentially turn their toes up. This is the response after a review is called.
Two sides you wouldn't touch, Carlton and St.Kilda as you senior coaching careers ends right there after a few years. Ratts must've have been a genius getting two sides with such poor cultures to 4 finals series in 6 years but he's struggling with the Saints now for similar reasons.
I would actually take Buckley on to a serious role. He actually wasn’t a bad coach. Missed a flag by millimeters. We miss flags by light years at the moment.
Not if you count white flags 🏳
I would drop Martin and Williams......mistakes I can cop but effort is a non negotiable.
Carroll and Boyd can get a run this week and I'd even give Levi another go this time as 1st ruck.
Martin is a shadow of the bloke who kicked 4 goals on debut against Richmond, but I really don't think he isn't even close to 100%. So much tape on him he looks like the mummy. Thought Williams was OK and there ain't anyone in the magoos that I saw who would take his place.
Kennedy was good tonight. Is it because we played him on the ball?
Dow, got better as the game went on. Is it because we persisted with him on the ball?
Jones, good.
Saad, reasonably good.
Stocker. If someone could explain to me why he doesn't get a run on the ball I'd be grateful. Wasted in the back pocket and often played on the most dangerous small forward.
Docherty is a shell of the man who was once all Australian, but we need to be a bit more patient and hide him somewhere like half-forward.
Cripps had real intent tonight but he's a 50/50 when he has ball in hand.
Trying to find our next win?
I have to admit that I was wrong about Kennedy. He was very good tonight.
If he can back that up, a new contract and a spot on the primary list is quite likely.
I agree. Not sure it would have made much of a difference tonight, but It's the same stunt they pulled in 2015, announcing a massive rebuild in R2. It adds more instability to what is already an unstable organisation.
Dumb decisions.
The fish rots from the head.
Martin is a shadow of the bloke who kicked 4 goals on debut against Richmond, but I really don't think he isn't even close to 100%. So much tape on him he looks like the mummy. Thought Williams was OK and there ain't anyone in the magoos that I saw who would take his place.
Kennedy was good tonight. Is it because we played him on the ball?
Dow, got better as the game went on. Is it because we persisted with him on the ball?
Jones, good.
Saad, reasonably good.
Stocker. If someone could explain to me why he doesn't get a run on the ball I'd be grateful. Wasted in the back pocket and often played on the most dangerous small forward.
Docherty is a shell of the man who was once all Australian, but we need to be a bit more patient and hide him somewhere like half-forward.
Cripps had real intent tonight but he's a 50/50 when he has ball in hand.
Trying to find our next win?
I was a Dow fan at U18 level but even tonight 13 possies @54%DE he is going to be struggling to stay on the list.
In fairness to Dow and to his mate LOB they havent had much senior support apart from the usual suspects to learn off and its
very hard to make progress when half your teammates cant be bothered turning up but still want their pay cheques every month.
Kennedy was good tonight but is that soldier like Ed who will give effort but isnt ever going to be a game breaker but at least he gave effort and he should have been played in the middle more often and got more games.
Docherty is a shell of the reliable warrior he was, started well but then got the fumbles and fell away in confidence...
Also who is responsible for teaching the players to stand 5m from their player? They can be sacked tonight
I have to admit that I was wrong about Kennedy. He was very good tonight.
If he can back that up, a new contract and a spot on the primary list is quite likely.
Be the first dropped if he has a poor one next week, he has never had that leeway that other players have.
He tends to play some good games then get injured as well which sets him back, wish him well but I think he could be a fall guy at seasons end.
I agree. Not sure it would have made much of a difference tonight, but It's the same stunt they pulled in 2015, announcing a massive rebuild in R2. It adds more instability to what is already an unstable organisation.
I was thinking that the review and the effect on the players was the "elephant in the room."
How has it impacted the playing group.
I guess the question is "Even though it was our worst loss this year was it really much different to some of our previous performances."
I suspect we have a great variation in our level of commitment through the playing list.
Some will give you 100% every game, even if they lose their matchups throughout the game.
I reckon some may have already checked out and be looking for a move.
We may even have players on good money who are a bit too comfortable with their lot.
There may be players who feel they deserve games yet are constantly overlooked.
The result of this can manifest itself in a lack of unity in the playing group, divisions and cliques.
Maybe the review will unearth some of these issues.
I reckon I should go to bed. You can only bash you head against a brick sitting around talking about our performances.
I reckon I should go to bed. You can only bash you head against a brick sitting around talking about our performances.
Might watch India vs NZ in the test final, could be a bit more competitive...
Kennedy was good tonight but is that soldier like Ed who will give effort but isnt ever going to be a game breaker but at least he gave effort and he should have been played in the middle more often and got more games.
We need soldiers.
He needs consistency.
Just back from watching my 3rd game live in 4 weeks - my 11yo son is still to see them win a game live!
Anyone who thinks their is not a huge problem is having themselves on - the difference in work rate, effort and intensity between us and our opponents is staggeringly bad. And our opponents know it - the opposition midfielders lick their lips when they play us because it will be the easiest 25 possession game they will get all year, and their is little of chance of even getting tackled.
The first half was appalling coming off 2 terrible efforts - they had 2 weeks to prepare and they laid 20 odd tackles. Every time the ball went inside 50 they looked likely to score. At half time 5 of our starting backline had not laid a tackle during 30 inside 50’s - it’s simply amazing that could even statistically happen.
When we lift our intensity and play with some spirit for 10-15 minutes we look competitive and we can score. But then we get opened up so easily and we can’t sustain the effort. It’s been exactly the same thing each week.
I can’t see Teague surviving - it’s not just the losses but how easily we turn it up. Opposition teams pay us zero respect and nor should they - they know if they just keep running and putting pressure on us we will fold and give up the fight. We are reduced to a laughing stock.
The club needs a Ross Lyon or Clarko to get the physical standards and effort levels to a much higher level than what they are now. It is simply soul destroying to watch how insipid this group has become and like most on here I’m finding it very hard to maintain any interest or passion given what they are currently dishing up.
The club needs a Ross Lyon or Clarko to get the physical standards and effort levels to a much higher level than what they are now. It is simply soul destroying to watch how insipid this group has become and like most on here I’m finding it very hard to maintain any interest or passion given what they are currently dishing up.
We've had that. Same result. Not many with better records and a harder edge than Malthouse. Same thing, decent first year, by the 3rd year players had turned their toes up. Same with the next two coaches, good first year, 3rd year and they've turned up their toes.
Yep, same old same old. Just a shame that someone like Walsh has ended up with us. How demoralising. You only have to watch any kick-out from any opposition to see where we are at. No pressure. No intensity. No accountability. It's as though the direction is to give your opponent the out. Maybe the thinking is if we allow the uncontested possession for long enough our opponent's will turn it over and we'll make them pay.
You only have to watch any kick-out from any opposition to see where we are at. No pressure. No intensity. No accountability.
This is what i don’t get - where does this come from? Who ever on any footy ground no matter the league, find it acceptable? I just don’t get it.
This is what i don’t get - where does this come from? Who ever on any footy ground no matter the league, find it acceptable? I just don’t get it.
I believe that constant bad decisions made with the trading of players and at the draft over at least the past fifteen years or so have finally come to bite us on the backside.
We had expected the signing of "hero" players such as Judd would be the answer to moving up the ladder and ignored the problems that come with having a non competitive list year after year.
When injuries are taken into account we have been left with too many players of mediocre ability getting games every week because the cupboard is bare and there is no pressure to perform.
We have reached the point where in addition to our lack of skills we have players whose mental attitude is also in question - where they believe turning up and going through the motions is good enough because they will still be paid for minimum effort and no consequences.
If the external review recommends that we need a new coach and/or a rebuild, then so be it.
Surely the disgraceful first half tonight must be a line in the sand moment.
It was truly deplorable. I do however, detect an undercurrent of player frustration with the game plan and maybe some sour views of our recent recruits and their contracts.
4 / 9 is nowhere near where I expected we'd be. Been saying for weeks we were never going to play finals and that is now an impossible target.
It's not just on Teague by any stretch. Half hearted efforts by a large group of players is demoralising and for many, simply inexcusable.
God help me, I could go on, but this is, largely, a selfish list. I was just a kid when we won '68 and my father had waited since '45 for a flag. I asked him night prior how he'd feel if we lost.
He looked up at me and simply said, "a bear with a sore head".
And here I am today, having waited longer ....
Hasn't bringing in all these hired guns like Martin on big coin been a roaring success.
Examples need to be made. The fact that blokes get dropped and barely go at half rat power in the two's highlights that they aren't the blokes we need. Fine. Here's your money, now GAFO. Play people who want it, and if required.... go and find some.
For whatever reasons, and we can go on speculating, player morale is clearly shot based on last night’s performance alone. No belief and no sustained effort. If the review fails to address the true causes of this then it will be yet another waste of time and our suffering will continue. I am even more depressed.
Carlton's review has finished and the findings have been published.
The thorough external review went through the whole club and came to the conclusion late last night.
Two issues have been reported on and highlighted.
The review panel found for the last 20 years player's sandwiches have been cut in squares, but all players preferred triangles.
The other stark finding was players were not having bed time stories read to them.
This startling finding has forced the club to form a committee on how to tackle the problems.
This news creates an obvious explanation as to why each Carlton team who has run out for the last 20 years has no resemblance to any Carlton team prior.
A spokesman from the club who was excited by the news said, it's only a matter of time for the famous Carlton swagger to be back.
It was truly deplorable. I do however, detect an undercurrent of player frustration with the game plan and maybe some sour views of our recent recruits and their contracts.
4 / 9 is nowhere near where I expected we'd be. Been saying for weeks we were never going to play finals and that is now an impossible target.
It's not just on Teague by any stretch. Half hearted efforts by a large group of players is demoralising and for many, simply inexcusable.
God help me, I could go on, but this is, largely, a selfish list. I was just a kid when we won '68 and my father had waited since '45 for a flag. I asked him night prior how he'd feel if we lost.
He looked up at me and simply said, "a bear with a sore head".
And here I am today, having waited longer ....
Game plan? There is one? Apart from the obvious lack of effort and commitment by many, our game plan allows for 10-20 of decent footy and that's it. Let me highlight some:
- Our kicking out is atrocious, the players appear clue less and struggle to penetrate most oppo set ups a lot of the time.
- Defence: Probably our worse line ATM and the worst in the comp.
- Tackling and pressure on the opo ball carrier is non existent.
- Tackling and pressure on our ball carrier is immense.
- Our delivery into the forward line is shambolic. Kicks to 1 v 2 or 3, kicks straight to defenders who lead our fwds to the ball. Is this an instruction?
- If Richmonds game plan is based on manic pressure and fwd movement of the ball at all costs, ours is the complete opposite. Bruise free, uncontested, guarding grass. Our structures are terrible for most of the game (save for a patches here and there).
Whilst not a game plan issue, our skill level is abysmal. I have little confidence with the majority of our players with ball in hand. Kicks that fall short, loopy high kicks that give the opo time to get across or close in, hand balls at the feet or wide, its constant week in week out.
I have now idea what they are going to do about it but we are so far off the mark its not funny.
I'll put one out there, noting all are culpable.
JSOS.
4.9 this year, his regulation 0.2 before half time.
Atrocious output as a 3rd tall. Quite frankly Crocker would offer far more scoreboard impact.
I'll put one out there, noting all are culpable.
JSOS.
4.9 this year, his regulation 0.2 before half time.
Atrocious output as a 3rd tall. Quite frankly Crocker would offer far more scoreboard impact.
You're 100% right about Jack Fly, but to pick out players in that hot steaming turd is harsh for mine. Its a mess across the board.
The abject mental capitulation and total lack of confidence of the players in themselves, the coach and the club greatly worries me. We could recruit Parkin as coach and a bevy of guns but our problems aren't ability, it's culture and attitude. This changes, to me at least, the kind of bloke we need as coach. I think we have the ability, but between the ears is the problem.
Oh, and I'd sack the non hackers on the spot.... They've had plenty of chances to put in, but they don't can't or won't. That's a terrible indictment on a playing group.
When does cricket season start?
I'll put one out there, noting all are culpable.
JSOS.
4.9 this year, his regulation 0.2 before half time.
Atrocious output as a 3rd tall. Quite frankly Crocker would offer far more scoreboard impact.
Think that’s very harsh, kid tries his guts out with less natural ability than others that do SFA.
Confidence is the key I think - the ball dropped between Dow and maybe Owies and Owies Sheparded for Dow who stood back watching! Why didn’t he go in and get the ball? You can’t say most AFL players don’t have courage so what was that? I assume confidence to try and ‘do the right thing’ all the time.
Has Cripps lost a lot of muscle? He can’t break any tackle. Nor can any of our team. Where’s the fitness guru?
It is sad and yea we weren’t winning and were just plodding along with the season but we’d not had much continuity with players together - the media started up and suddenly new prez of Carlton calls a review and gee didn’t that show how confident the players felt with that, last night!
The abject mental capitulation and total lack of confidence of the players in themselves, the coach and the club greatly worries me. We could recruit Parkin as coach and a bevy of guns but our problems aren't ability, it's culture and attitude. This changes, to me at least, the kind of bloke we need as coach. I think we have the ability, but between the ears is the problem.
Oh, and I'd sack the non hackers on the spot.... They've had plenty of chances to put in, but they don't can't or won't. That's a terrible indictment on a playing group.
Nice summary, Professory.
Even the Kangabies have shown more improvement this year. What an indictment. We are a bottom 4 side... and sliding.
Totally bereft of the basics that make a good football side, let alone a finalist, let alone top 4, let alone a contender.
Stanton laughing while our team flails is etched in my mind. FO d1ckhead... hand in your resignation Monday.
We definitely need a senior coach who is a club leader, someone who values defense and team, someone who commands respect. The TT is too naive, one dimensional and even tempered for the job. Giant disappointment. We exchange one set of training wheels, for another set of training wheels.
You'd have reasonably thought that everyone would have been galvanized by the independent review, to put their best foot forward last night. We did for the first 5 bounce ups... then, as you say Professory, capitulated. GWS relax a little in the 3rd, we rally, they focus again, we wilt. No mental toughness at all... only confusion, individualism, softness and then more confusion - spiritless, soulless.
We have the talent, of that I have absolutely no doubt. But when you plug in a poor game plan... well, even the best can and will perform below par, or even worse.
Time to fast track this review and implement meaningful, swift change before all is lost.
Oh, and I'd sack the non hackers on the spot.... They've had plenty of chances to put in, but they don't can't or won't. That's a terrible indictment on a playing group.
And a bl00dy horrible verdict handed down on recruiting. FFS, our player management and detecting talent has been woeful. We're now reaping the reward from years of ineptitude.
Thanks Silvagni ...
We have the talent, of that I have absolutely no doubt.
Do we though Baggers? I'm not so sure anymore, some of the things I see have nothing to do with game plan.
Dunno if this was posted elsewhere but Rendell reckons its experience (players above 28) that's lacking:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-have-a-big-hole-in-their-list-that-only-time-will-heal-20210615-p58138.html?fbclid=IwAR33_74OdqeVD8c9PPkwp7FASiAC0_gC0LBfFl3gMG314ptnQU5sHfiMFfY
Some good signs from Dow.
Kennedy got better as the game went on, still not sure he's up to AFL standard though.
Martin and Williams not doing enough for their pay packets.
Bad kicking all over the ground kept us out of the game. Entry inside 50. Shots at goal. Not good enough.
Some good signs from Dow. Agreed and we have no better options so give him a series of games.
Kennedy still not sure he's up to AFL standard though - Agreed, although I thought he was our best player in the 2nd half. Lacks the pace and too slow to release the ball to play midfield until other players slow down - might be a better forward option than Martin with occasional runs in the midfield.
Martin and Williams not doing enough for their pay packets. Agreed - especially Martin.
Not good enough. Only competitive on the rare occasions that we will centre clearances. Walsh subdued = lack of drive.
The Teague Train is not short of passengers tonight…… Betts, Park, Fogarty, Williams, Docherty, Martín for starters.
Too true - unfortunately
Green shoots anyone? Is it time to go back to square one and draft players with heart, endeavour, desperation
oh and that can hit a target 20m away
And, especially pace
I have to admit that I was wrong about Kennedy. He was very good tonight.
If he can back that up, a new contract and a spot on the primary list is quite likely.
No thanks - We have too many slow players who can't catch a cold unless it runs into them.
I believe that constant bad decisions made with the trading of players and at the draft over at least the past fifteen years or so have finally come to bite us on the backside.
We had expected the signing of "hero" players such as Judd would be the answer to moving up the ladder and ignored the problems that come with having a non competitive list year after year.
When injuries are taken into account we have been left with too many players of mediocre ability getting games every week because the cupboard is bare and there is no pressure to perform.
We have reached the point where in addition to our lack of skills we have players whose mental attitude is also in question - where they believe turning up and going through the motions is good enough because they will still be paid for minimum effort and no consequences.
Mostly true - the only argument from me is in the following phrase "have FINALLY come to bite us on the backside" - it started with the Wayne Hughes recruiting era and the downhill momentum has continued since.
- Defence: Probably our worse line ATM and the worst in the comp.
- Tackling and pressure on the opo ball carrier is non existent.
- Tackling and pressure on our ball carrier is immense.
- Defence: Probably our worse line ATM and the worst in the comp. I reckon most of our defenders play with intensity (except for the occasional brain fade) but it is hard to play an 18-man defence with several running on half rat power.
- Tackling and pressure on the opo ball carrier is non existent. All too true - today's AFL players (not including ours) have no difficulty delivering the ball on target (or at least to advantage) when they are under no pressure. Many of our players lack the physical capacity to chase and apply pressure and/or the mental desire to do so.
- Tackling and pressure on our ball carrier is immense - which explains why many of our players can't deliver the ball.
I'll put one out there, noting all are culpable.
JSOS.
4.9 this year, his regulation 0.2 before half time.
Atrocious output as a 3rd tall. Quite frankly Crocker would offer far more scoreboard impact.
Fly, while I concede the numbers don't stack up well for the kid I think that a lot of that has to do with him doing the TEAM things instead of selfish stuff. Too many times he tries to setup his teammate rather than kick the goal himself. I do think from limited opportunities he is an unreliable kick for goal. However, he ain't on his own there. The big plus for the kid is no-one works as hard and we have so few of those types in our team at the moment
I would have been OK with picking up Crocker, but he is, IMO, while clever and a good kick not as hard working and we have plenty of those types.
Dunno if this was posted elsewhere but Rendell reckons its experience (players above 28) that's lacking:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-have-a-big-hole-in-their-list-that-only-time-will-heal-20210615-p58138.html?fbclid=IwAR33_74OdqeVD8c9PPkwp7FASiAC0_gC0LBfFl3gMG314ptnQU5sHfiMFfY
This, IMO, is closest to the pin. I don't agree with the fat cat, lazy player theory. Teague was assistant coach here before he got the main gig. If the fat cat theory is true, then he's either blind, foolish, or naive in thinking that he could overcome where many other coaches have failed. I think the board and executive have caused a lot of instability over the years, which has a slow, corrosive effect on player culture. Imagine yourself as a worker in a large organisation, and there is constant change with the higher ups - it causes doubt, and a lack of belief in the company, direction etc. Players are no different. They feed off what happens above them.
And what I wrote above applies to Ratten at St Kilda IMO.
This, IMO, is closest to the pin. I don't agree with the fat cat, lazy player theory. Teague was assistant coach here before he got the main gig. If the fat cat theory is true, then he's either blind, foolish, or naive in thinking that he could overcome where many other coaches have failed. I think the board and executive have caused a lot of instability over the years, which has a slow, corrosive effect on player culture. Imagine yourself as a worker in a large organisation, and there is contents change with the higher ups - it causes doubt, and a lack of belief in the company, direction etc. Players are no different. They feed off what happens above them.
For most of the game last night, the group as a whole looked as flat and disinterested as I have seen in a long time.
Some good signs from Dow. Agreed and we have no better options so give him a series of games.
Dow lead Carlton players with 4 centre clearances, 5 total clearances, 7 ground ball gets (2nd to Walsh with 8) and 9 contested possessions (4th).
When he is allowed to play in the middle, he can win the football.
The issue is when he has the football. I would play him in the middle for the remainder of the season.
For most of the game last night, the group as a whole looked as flat and disinterested as I have seen in a long time.
Yes, but this happens often. After the GWS game near the end of Bolton's tenure, the players had the big honesty session, where home truths were told etc. They show a bit, then go back into their shells, then have a big pow wow, then show a bit, then go back into their shells etc. There's always positive energy with a new coach, then over a very short period of time it fizzles.
Some of our defenders don't want to defend, it's not even a case of intenstity.
We have too many chasing the easy kick or standing around guarding grass.
They are never near their opponent and give up easily when their opponent leads hard.
Jones and Weitering excepted even though Jones over commits at times.
Parks is a VFL defender, having him on anyone decent is a nightmare waiting to happen. Swans didn't want him with good reason...
The lack of physicality is alarming and has led to this bruise free brand we play.
Being out muscled by a soft bunch like GWS is about as bad as it gets when everyone knows they are a team that doesn't like it hard. Speaking of hard I saw SPS pull up in another contest in the VFL and Murphy was doing his best to avoid contact as well.
Every player we bring to the club now has to be one that enjoys contesting, is disciplined, a decent size and comes ready to play.
No more little kids or pretty players who want dance around the edges and leave everything to players like Walsh.
We are a joke of a club and my 15 straight years of membership will end this year. They have seen the last of my money. I was close to stopping last year but that’s it now. Last night was the last straw.
Our once feared and respected club is now from the very top to very bottom an absolute shambles and after such a heavy rebuild to be in this position is a disgrace and a failure across all levels.
So after 6 years being sh1tecanned getting hammered bottom 4 finishes year after year a ton of early picks we are left with only Weitering, Walsh and Harry to be excited about and to now try and do another rebuild around.
The rest of the list are either not going to make it or is over rated with massive flaws.
Should be only needing to tweak things yet we need another clean out and to practically start again.
I’m sure I’m not on my own but I’m over them.
The showed some stats from the first qtr on Ch 9
Carlton at Qtr Time
102 disposals to 75
25 tackles to 12
29 marks to 20
18 inside 50s to 8
Thats a terrible response from a club under siege and following a break which included some soul searching. Thats players not being accountable.
There are a lot of Plow cynics around here, has anyone besides me noticed him missing?
Personally, I think he was exactly what we needed yesterday.
Dow lead Carlton players with 4 centre clearances, 5 total clearances, 7 ground ball gets (2nd to Walsh with 8) and 9 contested possessions (4th).
When he is allowed to play in the middle, he can win the football.
The issue is when he has the football. I would play him in the middle for the remainder of the season.
13 possies@54% for Dow.... Its not good enough vs his equivalent Hopper.
I know fans want to love him but he is still a long way off imo.
Does anyone else feel just a little bit embarrassed when someone asks who they barrack for?
I feel my credibility in football conversations is diminished soon as the words Carlton come from my lips!
Even worse my son and grandkids follow their mothers team Essendon 😩
My father used to say about supporting the Blues that they always give us a good run for our money
he passed away in 2000 I’m glad he hasn’t seen the last 20 years he would have changed his mind.
I stopped giving the club membership money when they bought in Malthouse I can find other ways to waste it
There are a lot of Plow cynics around here, has anyone besides me noticed him missing?
Personally, I think he was exactly what we needed yesterday.
He doesn’t change the last 3 losses mate.
Like so many others we say we miss when they are out and then complain and want him dropped when he costs us goals.
Just more excuses.
More shuffling the deck chairs.
What can you say. Three weeks of derision in the media and they don't turn up to play. They don't care so why should we. They lie to the Club, they lie to their supporters, they lie to the Members, they lie to the sponsors, they lie to the media, they lie to their team mates and they lie to themselves. We don't lack pace, we lack the willingness to run hard. we not incapable of defending we just lack the will to defend. It is said the standard you walk past is the standard you accept. Our players don't walk past they saunter past like they are on a Sunday stroll. Coaches will lose their jobs, administrators will lose their jobs and players will lose their jobs because the players don't care. Murphy will miss out on 300 games because despite being a great servant of the Club, a great team mate and a great player, his team mates are not willing to make the sacrifices to help carry him there.
The last goal GWS kicked demonstrated the total lack of respect the football world has for Carlton. It was pathetic. They don't turn up and then in a ten minute display they get within two goals, the ball goes back to the middle and in a clearance Carlton must win, or at least draw, they give away a soft free kick, an unmanned GWS strolls past, kicks to a spot and a GWS virtually takes an uncontested mark. We get back to two goals in the last quarter, Harry takes a mark, twenty five meters out, it's a goal he has to kick but misses, gets another kick which he needs to kick to keep us in the game but kicks wildly and the ball misses the goals by twenty meters. These things aren't skill errors but application errors. It is not important enough to McKay to kick the goals. He is leading the Coleman, why does he have to win us the game as well. Silvagni had a quiet game, however twice he got free in the forward line and twice the delivery was poor, once by Docherty and once someone kicked it over his head and out of bounds on the full. These two opportunities could have change the story around Silvagni. On the flip side, when he shoots for goal with a set shot he has pushed the ball right all season, he seems to use the same routine and gets the same result. Is it the traning, how he practices or does he simply not care.
We don't play out the match, we don't play out the quarters and we don't play out the minutes during the match. we don't run to support our teammates, we don't run to support our team mates, we don't run to create space, we don't run to shut down the opposition, we hesitate to make decisions, we make poor decisions, we don't protect ball, we miss targets, we fumble, we fall over, we miss tackles, we don't block, we don't kick to advantage and we don't care.
What can you say. Three weeks of derision in the media and they don't turn up to play. They don't care so why should we. They lie to the Club, they lie to their supporters, they lie to the Members, they lie to the sponsors, they lie to the media, they lie to their team mates and they lie to themselves. We don't lack pace, we lack the willingness to run hard. we not incapable of defending we just lack the will to defend. It is said the standard you walk past is the standard you accept. Our players don't walk past they saunter past like they are on a Sunday stroll. Coaches will lose their jobs, administrators will lose their jobs and players will lose their jobs because the players don't care. Murphy will miss out on 300 games because despite being a great servant of the Club, a great team mate and a great player, his team mates are not willing to make the sacrifices to help carry him there.
The last goal GWS kicked demonstrated the total lack of respect the football world has for Carlton. It was pathetic. They don't turn up and then in a ten minute display they get within two goals, the ball goes back to the middle and in a clearance Carlton must win, or at least draw, they give away a soft free kick, an unmanned GWS strolls past, kicks to a spot and a GWS virtually takes an uncontested mark. We get back to two goals in the last quarter, Harry takes a mark, twenty five meters out, it's a goal he has to kick but misses, gets another kick which he needs to kick to keep us in the game but kicks wildly and the ball misses the goals by twenty meters. These things aren't skill errors but application errors. It is not important enough to McKay to kick the goals. He is leading the Coleman, why does he have to win us the game as well. Silvagni had a quiet game, however twice he got free in the forward line and twice the delivery was poor, once by Docherty and once someone kicked it over his head and out of bounds on the full. These two opportunities could have change the story around Silvagni. On the flip side, when he shoots for goal with a set shot he has pushed the ball right all season, he seems to use the same routine and gets the same result. Is it the traning, how he practices or does he simply not care.
We don't play out the match, we don't play out the quarters and we don't play out the minutes during the match. we don't run to support our teammates, we don't run to support our team mates, we don't run to create space, we don't run to shut down the opposition, we hesitate to make decisions, we make poor decisions, we don't protect ball, we miss targets, we fumble, we fall over, we miss tackles, we don't block, we don't kick to advantage and we don't care.
I agree with all you have written, but one thing I would find difficult is accusing a Silvagni of not caring. Accuse them of anything else but not that. Perhaps he is the only one there who does in fact care.
There are a lot of Plow cynics around here, has anyone besides me noticed him missing?
Personally, I think he was exactly what we needed yesterday.
LP, I reckon you would find that a majority of Plows knockers have never been anywhere near a football boot.
He's been in the top 5 or 6 players in the B and F the last few years .
While the judges are not the greatest coaches, they have all played a lot of footy.
Plow is a very handy player for us.
LP, I reckon you would find that a majority of Plows knockers have never been anywhere near a football boot.
He's been in the top 5 or 6 players in the B and F the last few years .
While the judges are not the greatest coaches, they have all played a lot of footy.
Plow is a very handy player for us.
Top 5 or 6 in our B&F for sure, where does he rate in the AFL? I would doubt he rates high amongst the leagues top defenders but Ill stand corrected.
So how come we have t heard much from those who wanted to hang their hat on waiting till we played the winnable games in the softer part of draw - How is that idea faring?
We played Sydney who I would have rated as very winnable and lost, then played a west coast 2nds team and lost and then this week played a team outside the 8 and never looked remotely like winning.
Hiding reality in excuses eventually gets found out. Same as the injury excuses BS. That’s another one we are proving as BS. Now I’m hearing we may be losing cause plowman is not playing! Or do we need to just be patient till Charlie gets back and rips the competition apart. Or Maybe it’s Marchbank we miss badly.
Time to call it as it is - we fans overrated our list and are still miles off a final 8 team and the rebuild is a fail.
Our club on every level is still very much bottom end and our results this year confirm that.
Enough excuses.
The last 3 weeks have really shone a light on where we are and there can be NO hiding from it - for the Board, the Exec, the Football Dept and the Players [especially the Leadership Group].
We were sitting 12th at 4 wins and 6 losses but coming off a win. About to play the teams sitting 6th, 7th and 8th at the time. All 3 of those teams had been inconsistent to date [like us]. Our season well and truly on the line and about to hit the road together. The club [and the whole rebuild] about to be face it's most serious examination. A few players coming back from injury so absolutely no excuses and no where to hide.
The total and abject failure of the Coaches and the Senior Players over the last 4 weeks has been staggering. I have watched it all up close live. The overall performance has been insipid and lacking in every department - no one should be above scrutiny such has been the scale of the capitulation. The problems are deep seated and wide spread, and we have effectively shown zero improvement or progress despite years or rebuilding. Our strategy and game plan [if we had one] has utterly failed and shown to be fraudulent at the first real test. Just like it had done in the 6 earlier games against decent football teams. It should shake the very foundations of the club, starting with the Board.
Analysing the individual players is pointless as the problem is existential - what does the Club, and this playing group, stand for? At the moment this is not clear. Winning games of football, competitiveness, hunger for success, uncompromising effort, and having the respect of your opponents [both individually and collectively] for how hard you are to play SHOULD be our core Mission - but right now we have none of this as a collective. They look lost, they play without hunger or heart, and they look like they don't even care that they don't have any of those things. The Club and the Playing group have zero respect.
From the outside looking in it is impossible to know what the internal assessment is of where they are at, their acceptance of the problems and how they think that they will address it and try and turn it around. In professional sport when the pressure comes the Coach is always the first one in the cross hairs and this will be no different. He is ultimately responsible for the wins and losses and the overall effort and attitude of the team. Right now that is deplorable, and nothing Teague has said or done over the last 4 weeks gives me any hope that things will change next week or over the next 8 weeks. Some might think that harsh, and that we are going back to the poisoned well looking for a messiah, but keeping on doing the same thing and expecting a different result is madness.
LP....said it on a couple of Instagram posts about how badly we've missed Plowman and have been howled down. I've not been a huge fan of his because of some of his turnovers, but he is one small/medium defender who does actually try and defend. It's embarrassing that we've got Saad, Williams and Docherty and none of them want to defend....so we throw that task to Stocker. At times last night Stocker looked to be running through the midfield and IMHO was one of our better players and one of only a few that actually had a crack.
For the glass half full supporters, can someone give me a reason why, after all of the scrutiny of the last fortnight on all aspects of the club, how it is that we can turn up and produce that crap in the first half? It was no different to the first 20 minutes of the WCE game....no pressure, no intensity, just letting opposition players waltz around as they liked and spot up loose targets. It was only blokes like Stocker, Owies, JSOS and Pittonet actually showing some intent and aggression.....hardly the leaders of the club. I know JSOS has issues with his goalkicking but I doubt there's many that work as hard as him.
And Walsh had De Boer crawling up his backside yet I didn't see anyone come in and help...try to block for him...or do anything to help. That tells me there's definite lack of leadership out on the ground.
It's always hard watching just on TV but the number of times Saad was just running around guarding space and refusing to pick up an opponent was worrying. He might've had small/medium defenders at Essendon who could actually defend which gave him the freedom to run and bounce and zone off....unfortunately we don't have that luxury.
We are destined for another bottom 4 finish and it's now nearly 6 years since the rebuild/mega draft of 2015. In that time we've also brought in big name recruits like McGovern, Martin, Saad and Williams and we are still nowhere near it. If Murphy isn't being gifted games to get to 300 based on form, then Martin and Williams should be playing in the VFL next week.
At times on the screen last night, even Cripps looked like he'd given up....the umpires didn't help his cause...they just don't like him for some reason. And when your co-captain is handling the ball like a piece of soap, there's not much else leadership out there.
I'm not for/against sacking Teague either way, but it's got a feeling of inevitability about it now. It looks similar to the last few weeks under Bolton where there was a clear disconnect between coaches and players. If there is a game plan, then either it's not being communicated properly or the players aren't getting it or just don't want to adhere to it.
And as a few others have pointed out, Stanton can clear out his desk tomorrow and f#ck right off. I failed to see anything funny about that effort last night.
He doesn’t change the last 3 losses mate.
There is no one player who can, anyone who thinks or expects one player to change everything has missed the point.
You don't stop trying to be better just because you can't be perfect, looking for perfection hinders progress.
Too many half back flanker that cant/don't defend.
Saad, Williams, Newman and Docherty.
13 possies@54% for Dow.... Its not good enough vs his equivalent Hopper.
I know fans want to love him but he is still a long way off imo.
100% agree. I am certainly not saying he is there or even that he is best 22. Just that one element of his game is actually pretty good and the rest needs work.
Hooper is 3 years older than Dow.
Dow has to play every week so we can actually make a call on him.
SPS too. We drafted these guys now back them in.
Dow has to play every week so we can actually make a call on him.
SPS too. We drafted these guys now back them in.
@madbluboy
Yet yesterday in the commentary I heard the "experts" state we were now paying the price for gifting those guys too many games when they weren't ready, hadn't earned it and weren't performing! They've become use to being selected off the back of half-hearted performances.
I've heard a few state that recently, including Jordan Lewis, Leigh Matthews and Wayne Carey, it's obviously an opinion circulating through the industry.
I think if you play them and they get beat up week after week it actually sets them back regardless of whatever ability they have!
Partly I blame our club for not taking Northern and the 2nd tier seriously over the last 20 years, we basically ignored player development at VFL level.
Per Baggers:
Stanton laughing while our team flails is etched in my mind. FO d1ckhead... hand in your resignation Monday.
What that says is that he didn't get the football department review memo.
Dumb.
Just as dumb and inept as the antics we've witnessed from Prez to player over the last 2 decades.
Can't imagine what it'll be like going back to work on Monday. Particularly for the young players and with added uncertainty of CV travel and lack of social support. The poorly timed review under these circumstances may inadvertently split the group further.
Like many, I'm exhausted following this club. I will, however, spare a thought for those committed players/staff now under scrutiny. My hope is those same people will stay strong and be part of the solution. It will be that resilience, mental toughness, and commitment to hard work that takes the club forward.
Those who prefer to sip lattes on the coast best check out the job vacancy pages.
Stanton laughing while our team flails is etched in my mind. FO d1ckhead... hand in your resignation Monday.
That can be as much as sign of disbelief, it can be a laugh of "I can't believe they are serving that crap up!"
@madbluboy
Yet yesterday in the commentary I heard the "experts" state we were now paying the price for gifting those guys too many games when they weren't ready, hadn't earned it and weren't performing!
I've heard a few state that recently, including Jordan Lewis, Leigh Matthews and Wayne Carey, it's obviously an opinion circulating through the industry.
I think if you play them and they get beat up week after week it actually sets them back regardless of whatever ability they have!
I'm not sure that's the whole story. There are still several inaugural GWS players in the system, both at GWS and elsewhere. They used to cop awful hidings back in the day - they're playing good footy now.
The problem IMO is the instability and flip flopping between one approach and another. Teague (who should know better IMO), has stated publicly on more than one occasion that earlier (read : under Bolton), we were gifting games to kids and that is no longer the case. How would you feel if you're LoB or Dow hearing your coach say that ? Quite apart from that, who should've got games ahead of them ? Matt Shaw ?
100% agree. I am certainly not saying he is there or even that he is best 22. Just that one element of his game is actually pretty good and the rest needs work.
Hooper is 3 years older than Dow.
I like Dow and want him to succeed as he has all the attributes of the modern mid in terms of size, pace, and he does attack the ball well but he just cant seem to stay composed enough or make the right decisions often enough.
Unlike his U18 days he also cant find the footy enough..
Is it the coaching, is it the lack of leadership/support from other mids?....why is Walsh excelling yet Paddy and LOB look in another dimension as far as how they play.
You want to offer him more time/games and maybe with new coaches in the box he will improve but to do that we have to get better support in the middle other than just Cripps and another kid in Walsh. Apologies to Ed and Matt Kennedy but they are limited players who are good soldiers but we need Dow becoming a General like Walsh.
You look at Hopper, Taranto and Tom Green and Dow looks like a novice still, there is only so long you can persist and hope..
Per Baggers:
Stanton laughing while our team flails is etched in my mind. FO d1ckhead... hand in your resignation Monday.
What that says is that he didn't get the football department review memo.
Dumb.
Just as dumb and inept as the antics we've witnessed from Prez to player over the last 2 decades.
Can't imagine what it'll be like going back to work on Monday. Particularly for the young players and with added uncertainty of CV travel and lack of social support. The poorly timed review under these circumstances may inadvertently split the group further.
Like many, I'm exhausted following this club. I will, however, spare a thought for those committed players/staff now under scrutiny. My hope is those same people will stay strong and be part of the solution. It will be that resilience, mental toughness, and commitment to hard work that takes the club forward.
Those who prefer to sip lattes on the coast best check out the job vacancy pages.
Stanton will know he is going anyway once the review is done.
That can be as much as sign of disbelief, it can be a laugh of "I can't believe they are serving that crap up!"
Could well be LP.
My view is based on my work experience. I'm in a very different industry, but I do supervise budding professionals. If my supervisee was underperforming I'd be watching carefully and noting my feedback. After all, I share the responsibility for professional development and performance standards.
I know it's a loose comparison but these coaches share similar responsibility. I expect incoming prez Auditor will be examining just this sort of responsibility- accountability.
So how come we have t heard much from those who wanted to hang their hat on waiting till we played the winnable games in the softer part of draw - How is that idea faring?
Haven't gone anywhere. Read around. I literally just answered that question in the pre-game thread for next week
I like Dow and want him to succeed as he has all the attributes of the modern mid in terms of size, pace, and he does attack the ball well but he just cant seem to stay composed enough or make the right decisions often enough.
Unlike his U18 days he also cant find the footy enough..
Is it the coaching, is it the lack of leadership/support from other mids?....why is Walsh excelling yet Paddy and LOB look in another dimension as far as how they play.
You want to offer him more time/games and maybe with new coaches in the box he will improve but to do that we have to get better support in the middle other than just Cripps and another kid in Walsh. Apologies to Ed and Matt Kennedy but they are limited players who are good soldiers but we need Dow becoming a General like Walsh.
You look at Hopper, Taranto and Tom Green and Dow looks like a novice still, there is only so long you can persist and hope..
Dow had his career ruined early on when he was thrown into the heat of the action rather than getting to perform lesser roles as he developed. Killed his confidence. Did him no good. not all are Sam Walsh's and hit it right away.
Stanton will know he is going anyway once the review is done.
If that's the case, the people who signed him up should get a tap on the shoulder. I've said it repeatedly, we need to look at our recruitment processes. If you don't get that right, you're forever behind the 8 ball.
Dow had his career ruined early on when he was thrown into the heat of the action rather than getting to perform lesser roles as he developed. Killed his confidence. Did him no good. not all are Sam Walsh's and hit it right away.
GWS must have got lucky with Taranto, Hopper, Perryman and Green then......I know Walsh is a standout player but there is just miles between Dow,LOB and the GWS kids for example.
I didn't watch much of the game - late 2nd qtr and some of the third. Sadly, learning a new accounting system was a better option (and this one is complicated for my little head)! I am surprised that we only lost by 6 goals (only looked it up now to see the margin)
I think the nature of the loss gets rid of some of the paper covering the cracks - we think we are OK because we're only losing by 4 goals every week, and if we keep persevering we'll get there eventually. We want eventually to be now.
I see us toil away for goals time and time again, just for the opposition to score easy ones. Yes, we look good when we have a run on, but that's once a game and we fade quickly.
We don't seem to play for each other and don't seem to be a great team. How do you build a team in a club that has had so much change that everyone is looking over their shoulder. To build a team, there must be a culture. Our culture is yoghurt. Something smelly and disgusting!
Brisbane has built culture, Richmond has built culture, North will be building culture, Sydney has one etc. We will languish until this is established. We know what happened to Fisher - finishing on 99 games. I don't think it is a great message to say that Murph is not guaranteed 300 games - will only get picked if worthy. Tells me that we aren't really looking after our players that well. Negative message that filters down the club. (I get that some don't like Murph, and are happy hearing that he may not get to 300) -
what about - we are working with Murph at the moment to help him get to 300 games - it will be a great achievement for him to get there.
ps how good was Toby's torp on half time - amazing kick.
GWS must have got lucky with Taranto, Hopper, Perryman and Green then......I know Walsh is a standout player but there is just miles between Dow,LOB and the GWS kids for example.
I agree. Dow's confidence is no better or worse than most of his team mates. If his confidence was shot from early exposure, then how do we account for his low confidence mates ? Just being at Carlton would do it to you I reckon.
I like Dow and want him to succeed as he has all the attributes of the modern mid in terms of size, pace, and he does attack the ball well but he just cant seem to stay composed enough or make the right decisions often enough.
Unlike his U18 days he also cant find the footy enough..
Is it the coaching, is it the lack of leadership/support from other mids?....why is Walsh excelling yet Paddy and LOB look in another dimension as far as how they play.
You want to offer him more time/games and maybe with new coaches in the box he will improve but to do that we have to get better support in the middle other than just Cripps and another kid in Walsh. Apologies to Ed and Matt Kennedy but they are limited players who are good soldiers but we need Dow becoming a General like Walsh.
You look at Hopper, Taranto and Tom Green and Dow looks like a novice still, there is only so long you can persist and hope..
I want Dow to succeed, but I don't see him ever being more than an average player. I have always wondered why we selected him when it was well known that his disposal by foot was below average.
It hasn't improved and he knows it. With the speed of AFL requiring quicker decision making I have seen his hesitation when he looks to handball instead of kicking because he can't trust his ability to hit a target.
Its interesting to compare Luke Davies Uniake and Paddy Dow...both were hot property in their draft year, both dominant at U18 level and both have struggled at senior level. Their stats in terms of disposals at senior level are about the same and their kicking isnt their strong point. LDU is marginally better placed than Dow in terms of the future IMO but is it just the case of two crap clubs unable to develop talent or did both clubs just get it wrong with their selections?
GWS must have got lucky with Taranto, Hopper, Perryman and Green then......I know Walsh is a standout player but there is just miles between Dow,LOB and the GWS kids for example.
Not every one is the same. We did nothing for his development early on. Now if he was with a good club that develops well how would have it turned out. If he was Richmondised. GWSised instead of Carltonised it may well have been alot different.
How would those others have gone in a crappy team where they were chucked to the wolves early in their career rather than have a very deep midfield allowing them to develop in lesser roles. Could have struggled too. Maybe if Dow was recruited by GWS with that deep midfield and allowed to properly develop he may well have been a star like in the U18's. We won't know but it is a very good question.
Its interesting to compare Luke Davies Uniake and Paddy Dow...both were hot property in their draft year, both dominant at U18 level and both have struggled at senior level. Their stats in terms of disposals at senior level are about the same and their kicking isnt their strong point. LDU is marginally better placed than Dow in terms of the future IMO but is it just the case of two crap clubs unable to develop talent or did both clubs just get it wrong with their selections?
Those two plus Rainer were standouts in the under 18s. We didn't didn't take Dow he would've been snapped up at 4. We did a 5hit job at developing him.
Some of our defenders don't want to defend, it's not even a case of intenstity.
We have too many chasing the easy kick or standing around guarding grass.
They are never near their opponent and give up easily when their opponent leads hard.
Jones and Weitering excepted even though Jones over commits at times.
Parks is a VFL defender, having him on anyone decent is a nightmare waiting to happen. Swans didn't want him with good reason...
The lack of physicality is alarming and has led to this bruise free brand we play.
Being out muscled by a soft bunch like GWS is about as bad as it gets when everyone knows they are a team that doesn't like it hard. Speaking of hard I saw SPS pull up in another contest in the VFL and Murphy was doing his best to avoid contact as well.
Every player we bring to the club now has to be one that enjoys contesting, is disciplined, a decent size and comes ready to play.
No more little kids or pretty players who want dance around the edges and leave everything to players like Walsh.
Stoker anyone. And where is he played!!
The last 3 weeks have really shone a light on where we are and there can be NO hiding from it - for the Board, the Exec, the Football Dept and the Players [especially the Leadership Group].
We were sitting 12th at 4 wins and 6 losses but coming off a win. About to play the teams sitting 6th, 7th and 8th at the time. All 3 of those teams had been inconsistent to date [like us]. Our season well and truly on the line and about to hit the road together. The club [and the whole rebuild] about to be face it's most serious examination. A few players coming back from injury so absolutely no excuses and no where to hide.
The total and abject failure of the Coaches and the Senior Players over the last 4 weeks has been staggering. I have watched it all up close live. The overall performance has been insipid and lacking in every department - no one should be above scrutiny such has been the scale of the capitulation. The problems are deep seated and wide spread, and we have effectively shown zero improvement or progress despite years or rebuilding. Our strategy and game plan [if we had one] has utterly failed and shown to be fraudulent at the first real test. Just like it had done in the 6 earlier games against decent football teams. It should shake the very foundations of the club, starting with the Board.
Analysing the individual players is pointless as the problem is existential - what does the Club, and this playing group, stand for? At the moment this is not clear. Winning games of football, competitiveness, hunger for success, uncompromising effort, and having the respect of your opponents [both individually and collectively] for how hard you are to play SHOULD be our core Mission - but right now we have none of this as a collective. They look lost, they play without hunger or heart, and they look like they don't even care that they don't have any of those things. The Club and the Playing group have zero respect.
From the outside looking in it is impossible to know what the internal assessment is of where they are at, their acceptance of the problems and how they think that they will address it and try and turn it around. In professional sport when the pressure comes the Coach is always the first one in the cross hairs and this will be no different. He is ultimately responsible for the wins and losses and the overall effort and attitude of the team. Right now that is deplorable, and nothing Teague has said or done over the last 4 weeks gives me any hope that things will change next week or over the next 8 weeks. Some might think that harsh, and that we are going back to the poisoned well looking for a messiah, but keeping on doing the same thing and expecting a different result is madness.
Review over, send them an invoice.
PS Youre hired.
Its interesting to compare Luke Davies Uniake and Paddy Dow...both were hot property in their draft year, both dominant at U18 level and both have struggled at senior level. Their stats in terms of disposals at senior level are about the same and their kicking isnt their strong point. LDU is marginally better placed than Dow in terms of the future IMO but is it just the case of two crap clubs unable to develop talent or did both clubs just get it wrong with their selections?
Both at crap clubs with poor development coaches, there's your common denominator.
Those two plus Rainer were standouts in the under 18s. We didn't didn't take Dow he would've been snapped up at 4. We did a 5hit job at developing him.
If Dow went to GWS, today he'd be a dominant midfielder with other clubs trying to poach him.
That can be as much as sign of disbelief, it can be a laugh of "I can't believe they are serving that crap up!"
Cmon LP get with the narrative.
I was amazed at how little intensity we had in our game last night. After 2 weeks of scrutiny I (stupidly) thought they would have some sort of reaction and finally play with an AFL level intent.
Instead we got well beaten for disposals and tackles. With GWS players frequently able to stroll out of the middle.
I would drop Newnes, Docherty and Jack Martin ( and 3 or 4 others).
Dropping the captain would send a signal..... finally. And his form is woeful.
Play Honey and Carroll at a minimum.
The team needs an electric shock.
I was amazed at how little intensity we had in our game last night. After 2 weeks of scrutiny I (stupidly) thought they would have some sort of reaction and finally play with an AFL level intent.
Instead we got well beaten for disposals and tackles. With GWS players frequently able to stroll out of the middle.
I would drop Newnes, Docherty and Jack Martin ( and 3 or 4 others).
Dropping the captain would send a signal..... finally. And his form is woeful.
Play Honey and Carroll at a minimum.
The team needs an electric shock.
Sic em Rex...I mean Krudd!!
If Dow went to GWS, today he'd be a dominant midfielder with other clubs trying to poach him.
I'll respectfully disagree, his disposal is some of the worst I have seen at senior level by foot or hand...he did a left hand handpass vs GWS that resembled something along the lines of Paul Bower. It was unco, and fell short of its mark which was about 1-2m.
If we have to teach players remedial skills after 4 years on a senior list then we have real problems......if I could combine Dow and LOB then we might have a player but both lack what the other one has and for top ten picks thats a fail.
We will have to persist with Paddy because there is sweetFA in the VFL to replace him with that deserves a game....Carroll is promising but a lightweight kid, ditto Ramsay.
If I could I'd pick Radovanovic and Crocker for next week I would.......maybe Levi, Honey as ins and Carroll as the sub as to give him a taste rather than a full game and not have him knocked around.
I'll respectfully disagree, his disposal is some of the worst I have seen at senior level by foot or hand...he did a left hand handpass vs GWS that resembled something along the lines of Paul Bower. It was unco, and fell short of its mark which was about 1-2m.
If we have to teach players remedial skills after 4 years on a senior list then we have real problems......if I could combine Dow and LOB then we might have a player but both lack what the other one has and for top ten picks thats a fail.
We will have to persist with Paddy because there is sweetFA in the VFL to replace him with that deserves a game....Carroll is promising but a lightweight kid, ditto Ramsay.
If I could I'd pick Radovanovic and Crocker for next week I would.......maybe Levi, Honey as ins and Carroll as the sub as to give him a taste rather than a full game and not have him knocked around.
No probs EB, my point was that the damage to Dow was done by us day 1, well before the GWS game. I'm suggesting a club better equipped to develop and nurture young talent would have done a better job with Dow in his first few years. Just my opinion mate.
If Dow went to GWS, today he'd be a dominant midfielder with other clubs trying to poach him.
Good chance that is right.
Interesting to see Ross Lyon coming out and saying that Adam Cerra is the perfect fit for us and we should try to get him even if it means a package deal of SPS and/or Fisher.....maybe Ross submitting his coaching application in a roundabout way?
If Dow went to GWS, today he'd be a dominant midfielder with other clubs trying to poach him.
Interesting you say that GTC as I was listening to the radio this morning on 3AW at 7:25am, there is a jerno, forget his name and he quoted Scott Drapper from Essendon, who said that Dow roved to him during lockdown, in a scratch match that was organised between 3 clubs, Carlton, Essendon and the Swans. He said, of Dow, that he thought he was one of the better midfielders that he has seen and played with currently in the AFL.
You can read the report in the link below. O'keefe highlights Dow and Kennedy output.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/950567/carlton-reserves-take-on-the-swans-in-scratch-match
So is it between the ears or is it that he cannot bridge the gap between VFL and AFL like a lot of players who great VFL players but just cannot make it in the AFL.
Interesting to see Ross Lyon coming out and saying that Adam Cerra is the perfect fit for us and we should try to get him even if it means a package deal of SPS and/or Fisher.....maybe Ross submitting his coaching application in a roundabout way?
I would keep Fisher. SPS can go if his heart is not in it.
Interesting you say that GTC as I was listening to the radio this morning on 3AW at 7:25am, there is a jerno, forget his name and he quoted Scott Drapper from Essendon, who said that Dow roved to him during lockdown, in a scratch match that was organised between 3 clubs, Carlton, Essendon and the Swans. He said, of Dow, that he thought he was one of the better midfielders that he has seen and played with currently in the AFL.
You can read the report in the link below. O'keefe highlights Dow and Kennedy output.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/950567/carlton-reserves-take-on-the-swans-in-scratch-match
So is it between the ears or is it that he cannot bridge the gap between VFL and AFL like a lot of players who great VFL players but just cannot make it in the AFL.
Its probably more the fact that the rules have changed significantly since he was playing under 18's and drafted.
Geelong are an older team but theyve seen the evolution of the game and had time to adapt to it.
We go with young kids who have only been using the 6 6 6 rules as lomg as theyve been an afl footballer in a team bottom of the ladder.
They all hit their strides a bit later.
We go with young kids who have only been using the 6 6 6 rules as lomg as theyve been an afl footballer in a team bottom of the ladder.
Kids(drafteees) come out of the TAC Cup system, in the TAC Cup the AFL mandates direct match ups and discourages flooding or other zoning tactics to allow recruiters to see and assess players in fair one on one contests. If a coach breaks that rule they risk losing their job, they are employed by the AFL.
It's a big reason why a lot of recruits struggle in the first few years.
I would keep Fisher. SPS can go if his heart is not in it.
Freo will want a lot for Cerra....
trade sps and setters for cerra freo start laughing
EB...they'll want a minimum of our first rounder which will likely be in the top 7 or 8 picks. I think they used pick 5 on him so it'll be at least that they're asking....maybe first rounder and SPS (assuming they want him), or Fisher, and then a swap of later picks? Cerra would be in our best 3 midfielders straight off the bat.
EB...they'll want a minimum of our first rounder which will likely be in the top 7 or 8 picks. I think they used pick 5 on him so it'll be at least that they're asking....maybe first rounder and SPS (assuming they want him), or Fisher, and then a swap of later picks? Cerra would be in our best 3 midfielders straight off the bat.
Agree it would be our first pick and a player perhaps with something minor coming back the other way.
Cerra will have suitors if he chooses to leave which is going to push his asking price and the trade price up.
Ross Lyon says we need to get him and you never know whats going on behind the scenes as we speak, Lyon seems
to be interested in our progress after showing luke warm interest in the Pies job.
I'm with Lyon and would be going hard at Cerra .....
Some suggestions that Richmond are keen on Cerra but if that happened, Freo will want Bolton coming back the other way.
Some suggestions that Richmond are keen on Cerra but if that happened, Freo will want Bolton coming back the other way.
That wont happen, Boltons management are playing games like they all do but he has his mates at Tiger land and will re-sign for sure. Cerra has a link to Essendon as well but he knows Ross Lyon who is a fan and if Lyon did take over I could see Cerra choosing Carlton as his new home. Not that I am suggesting we sack Teague, appoint Lyon just to get Cerra....
Id be targetting sydney stack first from Richmond.
Go for blokes who have ability that cant get a look in. Sooner or later youll hit paydirt.
Its interesting to compare Luke Davies Uniake and Paddy Dow...both were hot property in their draft year, both dominant at U18 level and both have struggled at senior level. Their stats in terms of disposals at senior level are about the same and their kicking isnt their strong point. LDU is marginally better placed than Dow in terms of the future IMO but is it just the case of two crap clubs unable to develop talent or did both clubs just get it wrong with their selections?
Just an average draft.
Add LOB to that list and there is already 3 from the top 10 that have done SFA and we haven't even looked at any of the other 7.
Sic em Rex...I mean Krudd!!
lol...
Newnes played what.....10 minutes as the sub.
Don't think he was to blame.
Not sure whoever else we bring in will be any better.
Interesting you say that GTC as I was listening to the radio this morning on 3AW at 7:25am, there is a jerno, forget his name and he quoted Scott Drapper from Essendon, who said that Dow roved to him during lockdown, in a scratch match that was organised between 3 clubs, Carlton, Essendon and the Swans. He said, of Dow, that he thought he was one of the better midfielders that he has seen and played with currently in the AFL.
You can read the report in the link below. O'keefe highlights Dow and Kennedy output.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/950567/carlton-reserves-take-on-the-swans-in-scratch-match
So is it between the ears or is it that he cannot bridge the gap between VFL and AFL like a lot of players who great VFL players but just cannot make it in the AFL.
Mate I am a bit of a fan of Dow's, I think we should persist with him and play him every week no matter what. His confidence will turn around I reckon. He has shown a good turn of speed which he can use as a weapon. He is reasonably gutsy for his size. His main area that needs improvement which is well documented is his disposal and goal kicking but with the confidence, they will come good IMO.
Freo will want a lot for Cerra....
Is he out of contract? Failing a reasonable deal/trade, we could probably wrangle a deal to get him in the PSD. Trust me, we will finish lower than where we are now so we will have a a decent pick, coupled with terms he nominates ala Jack Martin.
Mate I am a bit of a fan of Dow's, I think we should persist with him and play him every week no matter what. His confidence will turn around I reckon. He has shown a good turn of speed which he can use as a weapon. He is reasonably gutsy for his size. His main area that needs improvement which is well documented is his disposal and goal kicking but with the confidence, they will come good IMO.
Agree.
With Dow you get glimpses of what he can do. A spin here. A sidestep there. A breakaway from stoppage as well.
Upside is more than most. Got no reason to not play him. Get his confidence up and there is 1 less mid we have to try and recruit.
Is he out of contract? Failing a reasonable deal/trade, we could probably wrangle a deal to get him in the PSD. Trust me, we will finish lower than where we are now so we will have a a decent pick, coupled with terms he nominates ala Jack Martin.
I don't want to trust you, i think we can certainly finish higher than we are now.
BUT....
Do we want too?
Could we be tanking from here?
Announce a review.
No longer pick Murphy.
Play the kids.
Wins are not that important as the coaches job is deemed 'safe' for 2022..........or his replacement is already locked in.
What else would/could we do?
Keep Charlie in cotton wool.
Pick some more kids, Ramsay, Honey, Boyd.....
Be interesting to see what changes from here on out.
I don't want to trust you, i think we can certainly finish higher than we are now.
BUT....
Do we want too?
Could we be tanking from here?
Announce a review.
No longer pick Murphy.
Play the kids.
Wins are not that important as the coaches job is deemed 'safe' for 2022..........or his replacement is already locked in.
What else would/could we do?
Keep Charlie in cotton wool.
Pick some more kids, Ramsay, Honey, Boyd.....
Be interesting to see what changes from here on out.
That's an interesting scenario. But it could backfire because if the kids bring enthusiasm and drive with them we could see an improvement.
Id be targetting sydney stack first from Richmond.
Go for blokes who have ability that cant get a look in. Sooner or later youll hit paydirt.
Don’t we usually call that “recruiting other teams list cloggers” ?
I don't want to trust you, i think we can certainly finish higher than we are now.
BUT....
Do we want too?
Could we be tanking from here?
Announce a review.
No longer pick Murphy.
Play the kids.
Wins are not that important as the coaches job is deemed 'safe' for 2022..........or his replacement is already locked in.
What else would/could we do?
Keep Charlie in cotton wool.
Pick some more kids, Ramsay, Honey, Boyd.....
Be interesting to see what changes from here on out.
Better bloody not be! Hasn’t worked in the past
Wins bring confidence and more wins! Get wins!
Don’t we usually call that “recruiting other teams list cloggers” ?
See Adam Saad, Zac Williams, Mitch McGovern and Jack Martin.
All talented. All costly. All under whelming in terms of output.
The Sydney stack approach is for a need we have.
Shaun Grigg was seen the same at the time, but he was valuable to Richmond.
See Adam Saad, Zac Williams, Mitch McGovern and Jack Martin.
All talented. All costly. All under whelming in terms of output.
The Sydney stack approach is for a need we have.
Shaun Grigg was seen the same at the time, but he was valuable to Richmond. He was plugged into a better system. We have to admit that our game plan is not good enough... in so many ways.
There's been a few off-field issues for Stack as well that probably haven't helped him late last year and into this year. Do we think we've got the sort of environment that could cater for that....Richmond have certainly been able to do it.
There's been a few off-field issues for Stack as well that probably haven't helped him late last year and into this year. Do we think we've got the sort of environment that could cater for that....Richmond have certainly been able to do it.
We can only hope that the Independent Review addresses this (environment/culture) because I reckon Stocks is a strong part of our future and absolutely deserves considerable investment (along with our other youngins).
If we had Sydney Stack or Willi Rioli on our list their career would have been over long ago!