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Topic: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide (Read 37698 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #120 –
Quote from: Bear on
I wouldn't be too down on the game plan... yes, we can move it quicker, and we would all like to score easier... but there wasn't a lot in that game on Saturday.

Fundamentals are pretty solid.

Agree...they kicked some easy goals from our mistakes,.if you want to chip the ball around then you have to hit every target, the good teams
will punish you if you dont and the Crows lived off our mistakes rather than being that proactive with their own great plays.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #121 –
Quote from: Bear on
I wouldn't be too down on the game plan... yes, we can move it quicker, and we would all like to score easier... but there wasn't a lot in that game on Saturday.

Fundamentals are pretty solid.

Agree.

First you must learn to walk, then you can learn to run.

Playing keepings off is a way to keep us in the game, and limit the oppositions chance to kick away.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #122 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Agree.

First you must learn to walk, then you can learn to run.

Playing keepings off is a way to keep us in the game, and limit the oppositions chance to kick away.

I'm tending to agree with these blokes on this.  Even though it ain't pretty, it's competitive, and when we get a little bit more silk (draft/poach/develop from within), and the boys play more games together, and the young boys get another 20+ games into them, we'll get better and more consistent.  Defence has to be 2nd nature, and once it's entrenched, add that attacking edge to take advantage of momentum.  Remember the Hawks had a rock solid defensive game plan, and that was their springboard into attack.  They also had a lot of talent.  More than we currently have.  You can go a long way if you have both.  When Bolts & SOS took over we had bugger all of either.  I'm pretty pleased with how both are developing, taking into consideration where we were 2 years ago.  You can't just pull those magic rabbits out of hats.

For me, the improvement I want to see this year is a few more wins in the second half of the year.  Last year we had a purple patch in the early/middle of the season, and then had 1 more win for the year I think.  And then we started this year poorly.  It would be nice to see a more competitive end to this season, and 2 or 3 more wins.  I think the boys have a little bit of belief, but once they truly believe, strange things can happen.  Taking some confidence into the preseason has got to do wonders.  I like Bolton sprouting the line about being in a hurry.  They have to build the foundations, but they have to build a winning feeling on top of that before the belief starts fading.  

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #123 –
For those so interested, try doing a google search for whether offense or defense wins you games. I did precisely that, and whilst I found nothing related to AFL, I found a few for other sports, and there does not appear to be any statistics to back up the theory that defense wins you games. The fact is (surprise) that both are needed and teams that are considered offensive are equally successful as those considered defensive.

In terms of our team, I think the closeness of some of our games creates an illusory proximity. Whilst on paper 3 goals may not seem like much, our scoring impotence means that most of the time this is a bridge too far to cross. Nobody knows whether this will improve in the future.

In respect of the Hawks, I think they won their 3peat less because of their defense and more due to :
- astute trading and recruiting over several seasons, leading to a plethora of A graders with optimal team balance
- restructuring of their coaching staff and setup at the end of 2012
- playing a very aggressive, intimidating style of footy i.e unsociable footy.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #124 –
And I should also add, recent teams that are considered uber defensive, i.e the Ross Lyon Saints / Paul Roos Swans teams, have one flag between them, despite years of dominating the competition.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #125 –
Pretty sure Bolton isn't instructing the team to kick low scores, move the ball slowly or turn it over.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #126 –
First quarter was horrific to watch.  The game style needs a very high workrate.  As soon as we went to the required level, we became better and competitive.

Re: umpires, I was at the game and watched it when I got home.  It was really interesting to hear the commentators view - there were a couple of free kicks at least that rarely get paid that they got, and the commentators said that they were there and should be paid (eg 50m penalty for impeding a player once they got rid of the ball).  Be nice if they either paid them all, or none at all.  We didn't get those frees in return.

Jack doesn't get a lot of possessions, but as others have said, he knows footy.  The goal he kicked was great with communication from teammates (Sumner), positional play (Wright went back to the goalsquare) and SOJ then took the responsibility and celebrated as soon as he kicked it.  What seemed less than a minute later he was chasing on the half forward flank to the wing.  No worries with his workrate.

Weitering is in his second season of footy, playing at both ends of the ground.  Apart from the goal he gifted in the 1st qtr, I thought he was alright.

Murphy looked injured, particularly so in the last 5-10 minutes.

I could go on, but don't have the attention span!

Sun was in my eyes most of the game, and I found it hard to pick up the ball on the members side with the changing ads and darkness...

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #127 –
Quote from: Bear on
Pretty sure Bolton isn't instructing the team to kick low scores, move the ball slowly or turn it over.

Neither do Roos or Lyon - they're byproducts of a specific approach to football that prioritizes certain things over others.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #128 –
I agree most of the fundamentals are solid and there is a lot to like - except our inability to score.

As Malcolm Blight said in his HOF acceptance speech when asked about his philosophy on playing and coaching, he made the point that the team that wins is always the one that kicks the highest score! Therefore his approach was always based around an attempt to outscore his opponents. If you can't score, then you aren't going to win many games and you are never going to be successful.

As Paul correctly notes, defence and attack need to be balanced, and you need an equal measures of both to have any sort of success. We seem to subscribed to a theory that you can focus on defence, and then at some as yet unspecified point in the future you "flick some imaginary switch" and add an attacking component onto the game plan, and then you become a really good team. This theory doesn't really stand up to any sort of logical scrutiny, and our sides ongoing malaise [in terms of win/loss, scoring, points conceded, conservative game style] would also suggest it is not really working that well.

I would also propose that the counter argument is actually in many ways more sensible - learn and develop players with an ability to score [because it takes such a long time to develop the players to do it] and then add the defenders and defensive attitude later. Defenders and defensive patterns are much easier to recruit and teach.

I'm sure we aren't coaching the team to kick low scores, but at the same time we keep picking the same players who have struggled to kick over 10 goals per game for 2 years. We have also made a conscious decision to not actively recruit an established KPF or quality goal kicker [bar maybe Matt Wright], but have 'loaded up' on defenders instead.

We all 'feel like' we are heading in the right direction, and in many areas we are. But the cold hard facts when you look at the numbers vs last year tell you something a little different -  we are in an almost identical position to where we were. And our ability to score has not improved at all over the last 70 odd games - so the idea that it will somehow improve markedly over the next 8 weeks is very optimistic. 

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #129 –
sbf, those articles I read discussing offense/defense made the point that defense is actually easier, and requires less thought and creativity than offense, so you may have a point.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #130 –
When you simply think about how long it takes to develop a consistent quality goal kicking forward ( say 3-4 years minimum) and how few quality forwards are traded (compared to mids and defenders), it makes obvious sense to have a major focus on offence first.

As part of this each year I would also advocate you should be adding 5/6 forwards to your list without fail, given the very poor conversion rate of recruits into A or even B graders. It's a numbers game when you think about it, and we are where we are because of a combination of our recruitment choices being very poor, and not drafting and trading enough goal kicking prospects.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #132 –
Attack is good and we all want to see more of it.  We must be able to defend though and learn how to slow a game down and regain momentum when required.  Our ball use is still not great, and if it can be improved with the development of more skilled players our attack will suddenly look a whole lot better.

There have been glimpses of how good our attack might be and sadly there have been times when it has been comical.  We do need a bit more class up fwd which we need to develop and import.  I can recall quite a few fast and attacking plays throughout the year that fell to pieces because of errors by our players.  They might have cost us a couple of close ones.  We need more class, more games into our good kids, and to gel and execute better.  Then i think our attack will increase naturally.  And if Harry turns out to be ok, and Charlie develops into what he looks like becoming then we might go alright up fwd.

I wonder if Bolts does have the magical switch to speed up the game plan?  As mentioned above we do need to be able to attack better.  It is a must.  We were labelled downhill skiers once, and that doesn't work either.  Just got to get the balance right.  Maybe Bolts is teaching defence first if it is easier.  Give them a foundation to build on?

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #133 –
Quote from: sydneybluesfan on
When you simply think about how long it takes to develop a consistent quality goal kicking forward ( say 3-4 years minimum) and how few quality forwards are traded (compared to mids and defenders), it makes obvious sense to have a major focus on offence first.

As part of this each year I would also advocate you should be adding 5/6 forwards to your list without fail, given the very poor conversion rate of recruits into A or even B graders. It's a numbers game when you think about it, and we are where we are because of a combination of our recruitment choices being very poor, and not drafting and trading enough goal kicking prospects.

Absolute rubbish.

No good having gun forwards if you can't get the ball to them...

Gun midfields win flags as long as the bookends are ok. And it's beyond obvious to suggest that a team isn't going to get close to a  GF it it has too many spuds in its best 22.

When was the last time a key forward kicked  bag in a GF, or even a PF? Ablett snr back in '89 - and the Cats lost.

That article is naive in its analysis. Stats can be tweaked to say what anyone want them to say.

Footy is a simple game - work hard, win the ball, use it well (and ideally quickly) and you'll invariably win.....

We add Kelly and Hopper to our mid mix next year and our forwards will look as good as any in the comp.
Finals, then 4 in a row!
 

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #134 –
I should add I think it's time for Harry Mc to be given an extended run in the 1s.....some blokes just produce when given the opportunity at the elite level.

And it takes a lot of the heat off Levi...

David Cuningham is one who seems to relish the big stage albeit he needs to find the pill more....

Zac Fisher is one who needs time back in the 2s.
Finals, then 4 in a row!