All ready for the post game.
Need Weitering back asap!
Need Martin back asap
Need Walshy back asap
Fantasia, Boyd & Cuningham .............. banish them to the VFL and at the end of the season, banish them for good !!
Need Martin back asap
Need Walshy back asap
Need Jezza, Sticks, Braddles and SOS back asap 🤣
Fantasia, Boyd & Cuningham .............. banish them to the VFL and at the end of the season, banish them for good !!
Could easily throw LL on the scrap heap too, but regularly he produces and justifies his position, just like Fantasia, Boyd and Cuningham
That was a very inconsistent performance. When we had periods of dominance we fluffed our chances.
Oppo on the other hand made us accountable and were effective in return. Despite their shorter break from QLD, injuries, and rotation problems.
No harm done. Thank goodness. A very good opportunity for learning and adapting if we are to be taken seriously.
We were lucky. Oppo were good.
Well below our best but again found a way and took the points. Team has really matured.
Cripps huge and TDK is showing why he was so highly rated. Competed with a old school quality ruckman and when the game was on the line in the last he had another gear to go to. Becoming one of a few that we cant afford to go down.
Off to have my scotch
Starting to feel my old 1981/82 self. Disappointed in these type of wins....lol.
A year ago I'd have taken any win by any means.
The team has NO confidence in Lewis Young!!
Gee we made errors in that last qtr. Charlie's brain fade, Kemp's stuff up, and very late 2 Carlton blokes flying against each other that nearly bounced in to Bolton's hands.
21 down in contested possessions. Just didn't seem switched on. Like the cricket team, they find a way.
It was a good win because they got the win with all the errors they made and a well deserved break
I am missing (Doc, SOS) Weits, Walshy, Martin, Marchy,
We need them back or up for selection
Personally found that tough to watch - we had opportunities and just stuffed them time and again. Very frustrating. No composure way too many times.
Gee their pick ups through packs and run always were very very good.
Still unsure why we picked up Fantasia. Been a passenger two weeks running, adds nothing, last chance next week.
Only side to be 2-0 after Round 1.
Still unsure why we picked up Fantasia. Been a passenger two weeks running, adds nothing, last chance next week.
He went off injured didn’t he?
Let's hope little Durdin and Motlop are ready to take their chances
Only side to be 2-0 after Round 1.
We may yet be the only side to win 2 games by less than a kick after R1 😆
Still unsure why we picked up Fantasia. Been a passenger two weeks running, adds nothing, last chance next week.
No.40 on the list. Worth a punt. Get better as the season goes on. He might miss for the other Holland's next game though. Having a few runs in the 2nds will help Orazio get his touch back after the long lay-off.
He went off injured didn’t he?
Let's hope little Durdin and Motlop are ready to take their chances
The other Holland's will play next game.
Seemed to get dragged down to Richmond's level playing a messy scrappy game style that was error filled and we lacked cohesion even though we had control of play for most of the game.
Happy to take the win and add another 4 points like I said in the preview thread, didnt think we had that many great players and probably got lucky the Tigers racked up some injuries and ran out of fresh legs and man power.
McGovern played one of his better games , Newman was reliable and credit to Voss for moving Charlie down back in those last critical minutes and he helped us hang on. Lewis Young looked vulnerable and Richmond probably wished they had two Baltas so they could play one at each end.
Rucks I thought were even and TDK did ok vs a rusty Nankervis who was also competitive......Harry was handy again in his new role and I thought Cripps was a good player in close and was my BOG.
The small forwards were non events for both teams although Owies kicked a couple of goals and did his job from limited opportunities....Fantasia was 44% DE until he went off and he doesnt do enough or use the ball well enough at this stage to warrant a game IMO.
Seemed to get dragged down to Richmond's level playing a messy scrappy game style that was error filled and we lacked cohesion even though we had control of play for most of the game.
My thoughts exactly, we never got out of that scrappy pattern and it made it very frustrating to watch.
I've never been a McGovern fan but tonight he was one of our better players for the whole match. In the last, some of our better players like Hewitt & Cerra had a lot more influence on the game which turned it around.
Lewis Young worries me, the Tigers players broke through too many of his soft tackles.
I keep hearing Boyd is elite by foot but he was woeful, I don't understand what they see in him. The recruiting of Fantasia looks idiotic and Cuningham only seems to play well when we are really on top of the opposition.
Curnow needs a massive kick up the jaxy for that undisciplined brain-fade in the goal square. FFS, take the mark, go back and take some time off the clock and kick the simplest of goals. Had he done that, it would have given us a three-goal lead which was virtually unassailable. You can have all the big highlights you want but it's the 'bread & butter' stuff in the heat of battle that sets the really good players apart form the rest.
Kemp was terrific all night but that 'Mark of the Year' attempt on the last line of defense was also a massive brain-fade, it looks great when it comes off (Saad last week also tried it and came unstuck) but its too costly when it doesn't. Just do the team-orientated thing and give a defensive punch and follow it up on the ground.
DeKoning kicked a really important goal in the last but given he sprayed his first set shot left and then his second right, the odds were in his favour of splitting the middle with the third.
I was really hoping someone would clean-up Bolton, he is a massive show-pony/lair week after week who needs to be taught some humility & respect.
And our guys didn't pay attention to Maurice Rioli who always hangs around the man on the mark looking for a quick steal. It's smart play by him but you can't keep letting him do it.
The umpires really reamed us in the first half, it was embarrassingly poor from them, we should be making an official comlain it was that bad.
Two wins and a week's break to then face North & Freo after that isn't a bad place to be, just need to tidy up some of those really bad loose ends.
My thoughts exactly, we never got out of that scrappy pattern and it made it very frustrating to watch.
I've never been a McGovern fan but tonight he was one of our better players for the whole match. In the last, some of our better players like Hewitt & Cerra had a lot more influence on the game which turned it around.
Lewis Young worries me, the Tigers players broke through too many of his soft tackles.
I keep hearing Boyd is elite by foot but he was woeful, I don't understand what they see in him. The recruiting of Fantasia looks idiotic and Cuningham only seems to play well when we are really on top of the opposition.
Curnow needs a massive kick up the jaxy for that undisciplined brain-fade in the goal square. FFS, take the mark, go back and take some time off the clock and kick the simplest of goals. Had he done that, it would have given us a three-goal lead which was virtually unassailable. You can have all the big highlights you want but it's the 'bread & butter' stuff in the heat of battle that sets the really good players apart form the rest.
Kemp was terrific all night but that 'Mark of the Year' attempt on the last line of defense was also a massive brain-fade, it looks great when it comes off (Saad last week also tried it and came unstuck) but its too costly when it doesn't. Just do the team-orientated thing and give a defensive punch and follow it up on the ground.
DeKoning kicked a really important goal in the last but given he sprayed his first set shot left and then his second right, the odds were in his favour of splitting the middle with the third.
I was really hoping someone would clean-up Bolton, he is a massive show-pony/lair week after week who needs to be taught some humility & respect.
And our guys didn't pay attention to Maurice Rioli who always hangs around the man on the mark looking for a quick steal. It's smart play by him but you can't keep letting him do it.
The umpires really reamed us in the first half, it was embarrassingly poor from them, we should be making an official comlain it was that bad.
Two wins and a week's break to then face North & Freo after that isn't a bad place to be, just need to tidy up some of those really bad loose ends.
umpires had at least 4 score involvements to Richmond.
Might need to invest in a defib - CARNA BLUE BAGGERS!
Take the 4 points and a week off to hopefully get it back on track. To their credit, Richmond were fantastic....but we blew numerous chances to put them away when we had control after 1/4 time.
Fingers crossed that Weitering, Motlop and Martin are right to go against North.
We looked very shaky down back at times. It's heart in the mouth stuff whenever Young is near it or is trying a short pass in the back half. Kemp was good but a couple of brain fades directly cost us goals.
TDK's second half was huge, especially his stuff around the ground. And another really good game from Harry...again, his stuff around the ground was very good.
I'm worried about our percentage :D
No.40 on the list. Worth a punt. Get better as the season goes on. He might miss for the other Holland's next game though. Having a few runs in the 2nds will help Orazio get his touch back after the long lay-off.
He looked like he needed a few runs in the two's, as he was pretty ordinary this week. His kicking for goal was a strength, but it isn't at the moment.
Ollie Hollands looks more than a little off the pace as well. He did a lot more nice things than Fantasia did, but is still well down on his output from last year. He is just a kid and will get better.
Elijah Hollands is a likely starter against North.
Jack Carroll did some very nice things this week with 3 clearances, but he was caught out a couple of time with no right foot. That is something he needs to work on.
Adam Cerra had an ordinary one this week: he picked up after half time, but did nothing early.
Matty Cottrell was also down this week, although what he did was pretty good. If only Fantasia could have that sort of impact.
Charlie should have had 5 goals, but ended with 2. That mark in the square was brilliant; the play on and get a rushed behind was almost comical. His defensive work late was good and he generally had the better of his duel, but he has brain fades that need work to fix.
The way we mucked up goals was irritating. Jordan Boyd shouldn't have missed from that distance and he wasn't alone. Fat too much effort to get a goal.
Where to begin on this one. Was at the game and there seemed to be a flukey breeze which seemed to also change direction throughout the night so that could explain the many missed attempts at goal?
I thought we were the better team all night but just couldn't put them away. Mainly because of what we did or didn't do, but to Richmond's credit they never chucked it in. Got some significant help from the umpires but to get within a kick with 3 players down would have been encouraging for them. Havin said that it's happened to us plenty of times in the past so stuff em.
Ugly win but I'll take that ahead of an honourable loss. Let's recharge now and get ready for another "should win" game
Nice to win....but I thought we were well off the pace.
We've shown glimpses of that hard contesting play in the two games played so far but it's not been as consistent as it was at the end of last season.
There seems to be a bit of a 'disconnect' as well and that may be down to the structural injuries.
Too much was left to too few last night and a number of players had little impact.
When your mid-level talent is struggling it exposes your bottom-end talent.
The forward line was a dog's breakfast.
Dropping the ball in high when you have good tall forwards like Curnow and McKay may seem like a good idea.
If they don't mark it they will bring it to ground where our small forwards can go to work.
Problem is we didn't have any small forwards on last night's shift.
Probably a little unfair on Owies who is always good for a goal or two, but he goes unsighted for a lot of the game.
Lots to work on in the coming break and hopefully a freshened up group (with a few less injuries) ready to go after the bye.
Once up a time it was us who were labelled 'brave' in defeat. How many times did we see headlines, after losing a close one, 'Brave Blues.'
Only very good sides play below their best, even well below, and still find a way to win. 'Above the shoulders'... we are coming along nicely.
2 zip after the first two games, if most of us are honest with ourselves, we probably figured on 1-1.
Individually, we had our fair share of blokes down, well down - Fantasia, Hollands, Cuningham. A large number of 'did their job' ...just. But then there were the blokes who really carried us and had exceptional moments - TDK, Saad, McKay, Kemp, Charles, Acres, Newman, Williams (that run down tackle late in the game to earn a free was just brilliant). Then, at the pinnacle, was Cripps and McGovern.
...and some pretty handy blokes to return in the coming weeks...
I'm worried about our percentage :D
All good. We go 23-0 this year with a percentage of 103%...haha.
Pies have nothing on us. I had the Pies as the worst flag winners since the Pies in 1990, relying on the ability to winning close games rather than being a great side. I'll be very happy to go down the same path...haha.
The team has NO confidence in Lewis Young!!
It seems that Lewis Young has little or no confidence in Lewis Young.
However, his performances in the first two games represent improvements over his 2023 efforts. Maybe there is hope for him yet.
Kemp was terrific all night but that 'Mark of the Year' attempt on the last line of defense was also a massive brain-fade, it looks great when it comes off but its too costly when it doesn't. Just do the team-orientated thing and give a defensive punch and follow it up on the ground.
Displays great athleticism and skill but makes too many errors due to indecisiveness and second-guessing himself. Needs to create space for himself when he has the ball instead of hovering in the midst of the action.
Charlie should have had 5 goals, but ended with 2. That mark in the square was brilliant; the play on and get a rushed behind was almost comical. His defensive work late was good and he generally had the better of his duel, but he has brain fades that need work to fix.
A very instinctive player who desperately needs a dose of poise to take the next step.
Individually, we had our fair share of blokes down, well down - Fantasia, Hollands, Cuningham. A large number of 'did their job' ...just. But then there were the blokes who really carried us and had exceptional moments - TDK, Saad, McKay, Kemp, Charles, Acres, Newman, Williams (that run down tackle late in the game to earn a free was just brilliant). Then, at the pinnacle, was Cripps and McGovern.
...and some pretty handy blokes to return in the coming weeks...
Fantasia and the other small forwards need to convert the limited number of chances that they get - not doing so will likely cost Fantasia a spot in the team if/when another option is available.
Hollands seems to be less productive than last year but he is always committed to chase and tackle - an attribute that is catching on with a number of other players who were previously inclined to fade in and out of matches. In that regard, I thought Cuningham was better than last week.
Very impressed with the number of tackles-on-the-run that players managed to stick last night. Even Dusty was collared on multiple occasions.
Hollands seems to be less productive than last year but he is always committed to chase and tackle - an attribute that is catching on with a number of other players who were previously inclined to fade in and out of matches.
A couple of reasons.
Firstly, 2nd year blues, everybody gets it and suffering from it has nothing to do with the player himself, it's all about opposition learning your strengths and weakness and going to work on them.
Lastly, we've tweaked our game plan, at least at the moment, maybe when Walsh and Weiters return you'll find a bit more return to normal for the running types. However, I'm all for the winning ugly stuff, we are demonstrating we can now put the brakes on opposition even if a few of our running types suffer. It will be interesting to see when Martin and Motlop are available if we retain this strong defensive capability, or if the bias tilts towards attack.
Very impressed with the number of tackles-on-the-run that players managed to stick last night. Even Dusty was collared on multiple occasions.
True, but of the heavy lifters I thought Tarranto and Hopper had pretty good nights for them.
Father time is catching up with Dusty he can't break those tackles as easily, will he get back to full Dusty after a few games, I doubt it, but he'll still have his moments. Even so it looks like we aren't intimidated by him anymore.
I'm not sold on Fantasia again, two weeks in a row he's looked off the pace and timid, it may be because he's not yet familiar with the team-mates and that can make you hesitant.
But particularly 1/2-game for 1 tackle is not going to cut it from an AFL small forward, especially in a game which was so contested. He needs to get into the opponents as a bare minimum, learn to love the berserk, and get amongst it.
I'm not sold on Fantasia again, two weeks in a row he's looked off the pace and timid, it may be because he's not yet familiar with the team-mates and that can make you hesitant.
But particularly 1/2-game for 1 tackle is not going to cut it from an AFL small forward, especially in a game which was so contested. He needs to get into the opponents as a bare minimum, learn to love the berserk, and get amongst it.
Long time off, he'll get the feel of it all again, possibly in the 2nds. As a last spot on the list well worth a punt. Eventually we'll get plenty from him, just not now or any time soon. He'll lose his spot to the other Hollands next game.
Good to get away with that one if even we were ordinary. Last night worried me as I still respect Richmond. Plenty of stars from multiple premierships years still in that line up. They gave me the impression they be in contention for a spot in the bottom part of the 8.
The omens are good. The only other time a side has been 2-0 after round 1 was us in 1979 when our round 3 game against Essendon was played before round 1. We were premiers that year!
100% honest, I was very worried going into this game. Between the inevitable let-down after last week's big win and Doc's knee, combined with a Richmond outfit who were always going to be fired up, there was a real chance we would turn up half-baked and get rolled.
Fortunately, we were 3/4 baked and did enough to win. Had two chances (start of the second and start of the last) where we could have put the game to bed - if we had established a 20+ lead at any stage, I think the Tiges would have faded - but we stuffed up enough to keep them interested.
This is one of those 'ugly' wins that you need to have - still get the four points, but also (hopefully) learn several lessons.
Kudos to our tackling, it has improved out of sight (although Lewis Y needs to do some significant remedial work).
Best sight for the night - TDK has finally realised he can jump higher than the gorillas and is faster around the ground. I think his season will only get better. And Harry's 'ball on the ground, 10 steps, kick' routine is clearly a keeper.
Displays great athleticism and skill but makes too many errors due to indecisiveness and second-guessing himself. Needs to create space for himself when he has the ball instead of hovering in the midst of the action.
Agree...does a lot of good stuff but then takes the gloss off his work with some poor disposal usually caused by panicking in traffic either real or perceived. I think these games without Weitering and with extra responsibility are good for him and I see a good long term player who will only get better.
I thought Richmond responded pretty strongly after last week's debacle. They didn't give up. Hat tip to them. Do our players know that they are allowed to win by more than a goal?
I thought our tackling was pretty good, our goal kicking was average, our defence was very strong but there is still some disconnect in our forward line.
When McKay was recruited I thought he would be our next Kernahan. Over the past few seasons he had become our next Casboult. He looks like he is going to have a pretty big year. I have been pretty happy with Cuningham and Fogarty so far.
Nothing much more I can say. Keep winning.
Over the past few seasons he had become our next Casboult.
Surely you are taking the piss!
Casboult has played 200 games and averages a goal a game, McKay averages two goals a game and has won a Coleman. Last week Casboult played 86% game time standing in F50 time next to Lukosius and King, and didn't hit the scoreboard. So I'm assuming Levi played as a decoy forward.
FWIW, I suspect we could stand Barb in F50 surrounded by Harry and Charlie and she'd hit the scoreboard by coincidence or perhaps a deflection.
(https://resources.carltonfc.com.au/photo-resources/2021/07/01/d3432436-5861-40e1-839f-3c144cfb11f9/Article-size.png?width=1064&height=600)
I have been pretty happy with Cuningham and Fogarty so far.
These are 2 players I have been very interested in.
I keep waiting for Cunningham to have that really big game but I have been somewhat disappointed so far this year - fingers crossed going forward.
Fogarty I was generally uninterested in 10-12 months ago - I had him well behind Owies, Motlop, small Durdin, and even Cunningham but he is certainly exceeding my expectations - hopefully his good form continues and he does seem to offer more than just the small forward role (which is where I had him playing)
Both the umpiring and commentary were horrendous in the game too......I expect BT to provide ludicrous knee jerk comments but found Joel Selwood both inadequate vocally and uninspiring with his mono tone voice plus he sat on the fence with his thoughts and was unable to provide any insight and was unwilling to commit himself on any controversial 50/50 play umpiring decision etc.
As for the umpiring, about as consistent and accurate as the match review committee and then I read that ex commentator and professional knob Wayne Carey thought the umpires wanted us to win the game and were favouring us with free kicks.... he must have missed the charities to Lynch.
Surely you are taking the piss!
Casboult has played 200 games and averages a goal a game, McKay averages two goals a game and has won a Coleman. Last week Casboult played 86% game time standing in F50 time next to Lukosius and King, and didn't hit the scoreboard. So I'm assuming Levi played as a decoy forward.
FWIW, I suspect we could stand Barb in F50 surrounded by Harry and Charlie and she'd hit the scoreboard by coincidence or perhaps a deflection.
(https://resources.carltonfc.com.au/photo-resources/2021/07/01/d3432436-5861-40e1-839f-3c144cfb11f9/Article-size.png?width=1064&height=600)
Not talking the actual ability but someone who can play forward and ruck at the same time. Levi was solid enough in both roles. Certainly a reasonable target as a key forward. We have missed Levi and his ability to play the dual role. It allowed us to play an extra runner. Since it's either been 2 rucks or rucking JSOS. We know Harry is a way, way better forward, but Levi was certainly alot better actual ruck. Both certainly good when on the ball around the ground. Harry probably better there too, but Levi was good in that role too, as he was at CHB/ruck for a season. While a master of none Levi was a decent jack of all trades. Don't get to 200 games unless you have something decent.
Both the umpiring and commentary were horrendous in the game too......I expect BT to provide ludicrous knee jerk comments but found Joel Selwood both inadequate vocally and uninspiring with his mono tone voice plus he sat on the fence with his thoughts and was unable to provide any insight and was unwilling to commit himself on any controversial 50/50 play umpiring decision etc.
As for the umpiring, about as consistent and accurate as the match review committee and then I read that ex commentator and professional knob Wayne Carey thought the umpires wanted us to win the game and were favouring us with free kicks.... he must have missed the charities to Lynch.
I do expect Selwood to get better as he grows into the role. He'll get feedback as he goes.
15 players played last night from the 2019 GF. 12 Richmond, 3 GWS, 2 of the latter for Richmond, one for us. 14 Tigers played in the 2020 GF.
Hence why I was a little worried still last night. There's enough there to command alot of respect.
I didn't realize Charlie's goal review was ruled holding the ball and we got no score.
I do expect Selwood to get better as he grows into the role. He'll get feedback as he goes.
Might do better if he doesn't get rostered with BT, JB and Richo
Might do better if he doesn't get rostered with BT, JB and Richo
How about when BT convinced them all that the TDK 50 metre penalty was more than 50m?
I know we all love to hate Eddie but he was pushed out of commentating Collingwood because of bias but it was obvious BT and Richo were riding Richmond last night.
I didn't realize Charlie's goal review was ruled holding the ball and we got no score.
Yes. you could hear the umpire in the background saying if it's not a goal it's a free kick.
Yes. you could hear the umpire in the background saying if it's not a goal it's a free kick.
I have never seen that happen before despite numerous incidents that were similar.
I didn't realize Charlie's goal review was ruled holding the ball and we got no score.
Is that right, I didn't realise. Is that why the man on the mark was standing at the top of the square?
UPDATE I Just watched the replay and it was given a behind (score changed from 84 to 85)
UPDATE OF THE UPDATE Boyd kicked a point and they didn't add a behind (score corrected)
Is that right, I didn't realise. Is that why the man on the mark was standing at the top of the square?
UPDATE I Just watched the replay and it was given a behind (score changed from 84 to 85)
UPDATE OF THE UPDATE Boyd kicked a point and they didn't add a behind (score corrected)
Live I thought we were ripped off by not getting Boyd's point.
I thought Richmond responded pretty strongly after last week's debacle. They didn't give up. Hat tip to them. Do our players know that they are allowed to win by more than a goal?
I thought our tackling was pretty good, our goal kicking was average, our defence was very strong but there is still some disconnect in our forward line.
When McKay was recruited I thought he would be our next Kernahan. Over the past few seasons he had become our next Casboult. He looks like he is going to have a pretty big year. I have been pretty happy with Cuningham and Fogarty so far.
Nothing much more I can say. Keep winning.
I thought Richmond almost beat us at our own game (fast ball movement) with TO's and errors thwarting it.
I thought Cripps was huge as was TDK, Gov, H and Kemp. Whilst I felt Young did very well on Lynch, who was gifted two goals from horrible frees), I still think he seems to panic. Kemp was undersized and solid and managed to redeem his TO when Rich was coming with same game saving efforts in the dying minutes.
I still dont rate Boyd, I am yet to see this elite kicking. His general field kicking is no better than any one on our list.
Special Mention: Jack Carroll, growing into a fine player before our eyes. Keep going son.
Matty Cottrell should be our set shot coach. As Dunstall always says, run straight, drop straight and you kick straight, Cotters is the epitome of this IMO. He has a beautiful kicking action and many on our list should look to him for advice (that's you Kempy).
H was big and powerful, what a game from the big fella.
Just an explanation. Stephen Kernahan was a player you could rely on as a key forward and leader. Levi Casboult would take strong marks and you would hold your breath while he shot for goal. He was a good player. Sticks was a great player. When McKay started I thought he could be like Kernahan but over the past few seasons he has kicked like Casboult. This season he has played like the leader and quality player I thought he would be. It is really not that difficult to understand.
Just an explanation. Stephen Kernahan was a player you could rely on as a key forward and leader. Levi Casboult would take strong marks and you would hold your breath while he shot for goal. He was a good player. Sticks was a great player. When McKay started I thought he could be like Kernahan but over the past few seasons he has kicked like Casboult. This season he has played like the leader and quality player I thought he would be. It is really not that difficult to understand.
Sticks wasn't always the best kick either. Those helicopters were special....lol.
I thought Richmond almost beat us at our own game (fast ball movement) with TO's and errors thwarting it.
I thought Cripps was huge as was TDK, Gov, H and Kemp. Whilst I felt Young did very well on Lynch, who was gifted two goals from horrible frees), I still think he seems to panic. Kemp was undersized and solid and managed to redeem his TO when Rich was coming with same game saving efforts in the dying minutes.
I still dont rate Boyd, I am yet to see this elite kicking. His general field kicking is no better than any one on our list.
Special Mention: Jack Carroll, growing into a fine player before our eyes. Keep going son.
Matty Cottrell should be our set shot coach. As Dunstall always says, run straight, drop straight and you kick straight, Cotters is the epitome of this IMO. He has a beautiful kicking action and many on our list should look to him for advice (that's you Kempy).
H was big and powerful, what a game from the big fella.
Tiges beat by by 21 in contested possessions. That alot considering it was our strength. They easily outscored us from stoppages, again our strength. By contrast, we scored well on transition, which we don't always do.
I have never seen that happen before despite numerous incidents that were similar.
A first for me too. If he didn't get his foot to it, it was unfortunately a free kick.
Is that right, I didn't realise. Is that why the man on the mark was standing at the top of the square?
UPDATE I Just watched the replay and it was given a behind (score changed from 84 to 85)
UPDATE OF THE UPDATE Boyd kicked a point and they didn't add a behind (score corrected)
After Boyd kicked his point the scoreboard went down for a few seconds then came back the same score to cover for the error when they gave Charlie's brainfade a point. Heard that on SEN this morning.
After Boyd kicked his point the scoreboard went down for a few seconds then came back the same score to cover for the error when they gave Charlie's brainfade a point. Heard that on SEN this morning.
Yeah, wasn't aware until I read MBB's post. A bloke at work and I were talking about the man on the mark standing at the top of the square instead of 30m out.
100% honest, I was very worried going into this game. Between the inevitable let-down after last week's big win and Doc's knee, combined with a Richmond outfit who were always going to be fired up, there was a real chance we would turn up half-baked and get rolled.
I agree. Richard had 3 of their best back and close to their best combo on the field and they were motivated to react after last week's embarrassment. But we looked to be the better team for most of the game. But for our kicking, we would have won by 5 goals. We stuffed up so many times in the forward 50, and, what irritated me more, we didn't look for short options very often. Not enough leading.
Nankervis was a big 'in' for them, and he beat Tom early. I would have liked Pitto out there, as he has the body to handle Nankervis. But Pitto isn't fit yet and doesn't look like he is going to be for a few weeks yet.
I loved the way Tom smothered and chased and tackled in the centre square.
Fortunately, we were 3/4 baked and did enough to win. Had two chances (start of the second and start of the last) where we could have put the game to bed - if we had established a 20+ lead at any stage, I think the Tiges would have faded - but we stuffed up enough to keep them interested.
The way we played in the middle part of the second quarter was magnificent in all but one way: our finishing in the forward 50. We will be better when a fit Jack martin and a fit Motlop are ready to go. Not sure when that is going to be, though. This was the 2nd's last practice match and we have a bye for VFL Rd 1! We really need our listed players to get more game time under their belts.
This is one of those 'ugly' wins that you need to have - still get the four points, but also (hopefully) learn several lessons.
I don't mind an 'ugly' win, as long as it is a win.
Kudos to our tackling, it has improved out of sight (although Lewis Y needs to do some significant remedial work).
Our tackling last night was magnificent. That and the smothers and the way we read the ball after those things happened. Mitch McGovern was really good at taking advantage of a tackle or smother. He had a very good game.
Best sight for the night - TDK has finally realised he can jump higher than the gorillas and is faster around the ground. I think his season will only get better. And Harry's 'ball on the ground, 10 steps, kick' routine is clearly a keeper.
had to agree. To see the way Tom finished off was what I wanted. He can do this, he just has to believe he can.
H also seems to have the belief at the moment. Charlie needs a dose of it; he should have had at least 5.
Fantasia needs some belief badly. He'll be back in the two's when Martin and/or Motlop are available until he believes he can kick goals again.
Mind you, the twos are not looking that great at the moment. Power is great at working with the kids and developing them, but he isn't a great coach. He needs to be doing more development while a good coach gets our players going.
had to agree. To see the way Tom finished off was what I wanted. He can do this, he just has to believe he can.
H also seems to have the belief at the moment.
Everyone has seen the potential from TDK, everyone believes he can do it. He seems to be the only one who hasn't seen it. Year on year we keep waiting. Perhaps THIS is the year he finally gets it. Could be a good year for him and us if it is.
I really think that everyone needs to rememeber who Lewis Young is, he is a a backup and as a backup we need to have a little more faith in him, look where we would be without him? think about that get onboard and pump up his tyres a little , whilst he is down a little support from all may prove to be a benefit . he wasnt picked up to be the main man.
Interesting game!
I was always pretty confident that we would win, and we should have won by a bigger margin if we had kicked straight ... and Charlie didn't get a rush of blood. The soft free kicks awarded inside Richmond's 50 didn't help but we got one back with the slightly generous 50m penalty put De Koning within range.
I'm not sure what Lewis Young has to do. He kept Lynch quiet, went for his marks when that was the best option and killed the ball when it wasn't. He distributed the ball well and 19 disposals at 94% is pretty good for a key defender. McGovern, Newman and Kemp were very effective but Saad, Williams and Boyd let themselves down with some uncharacteristic shocking disposals.
Owies and Fantasia again had nights to forget but at least Owies made up for some poor kicking with two very nice goals. Durdin looked lively when he came on but didn't really get into the game. Fogarty, Cuningham and Cottrell were OK, if a little down.
Harry looks like he's owning the second ruck role and was again very impressive around the ground ... and his kicking for goal was all that you could ask for. De Koning is really blossoming as our first ruck and Nank learnt that he can look after himself while taking the honours in ruck contests and impact around the ground.
We had quite a few players who didn't perform as well as they normally do, Cerra for one. At the other end of the scale, Cripps was outstanding, McGovern not far behind, McKay was dominant, Hewett was good, Acres was his usual solid self, Carroll was promising and Saad was good if let down by some poor kicking; unusual for him.
That's eight points in the bank and victories over the premiership favourites and a team with a solid core of premiership players.
TDK is 24 y.o and about the age you expect big guys to go into Beast Mode and will be in Beast Mode for next eight years
We 422nd our of 424 for the highest percentage at 2-0...lol.
Only Fitzroy 1943 and the Dogs 1951 have been lower at 101.9 and 101.4 respectively.
TDK is 24 y.o and about the age you expect big guys to go into Beast Mode and will be in Beast Mode for next eight years
Speriamo (fingers and toes cross)
PS I saw SOS and Jo in a bar at the G on Friday. Good to see SOS at a Carlton game even though his son wasn't playing. He couldn't have been doing recon work as we don't play them until the last round. We were on the table next them and Junior G2C and I were trying to eaves drop on what they were talking about but couldn't here. They were with another bloke and Junior did hear him tell SOS something like "We all know she's the boss mate" to which Jo smiled.
So many nuffies were going up to him asking for a photo, he obliged to every one of them which was nice to see.
Go back to around this time last year and read some of the comments regarding TDK.
They're often about his 'unrealised' potential...like "he hasn't really shown us what he is capable of yet"
He was probably second choice ruckman behind Pittonet at that stage.
Surely folks can see the improvement.
That's all we can ask....'improvement'.
We had 4 rucks on the list this time last season. 2 raw and tagged with potential. One developing nicely who is as much a forward who can ruck as a ruck than push forward, and one 24/7 meat and potatoes ruckman in pittonet who is solid but unspectacular and could easily disappear into anonymity. Talk of de koning going last year was fanciful.
Also he wad playing to his potential what people were moaning about was consistency.
Charlie is a gun and whilst he showed signs early he wasn't really ready to take the scruff of the neck of games until a few years back. Harry similar. Only smalls are consistent early on, even then they don't develope consistency until they get continuity.
Everyone has seen the potential from TDK, everyone believes he can do it. He seems to be the only one who hasn't seen it. Year on year we keep waiting. Perhaps THIS is the year he finally gets it. Could be a good year for him and us if it is.
He is still improving and as many of us have have said on here he proves a big challenge for opposition as around the ground he is a very difficult match up and actually impacts the result like the very best rucks in the comp can do.
My concern is if he goes down we have very little to draw upon. Pitto is older slower and pretty much useless around the ground-will be a massive downgrade if that happens.
I would be in favour of maybe resting TDK for games against the bottom 4 teams to give his body extra time to recover.
TDK is as important as charlie and weitering imo to us going further this year. We need to look after him by resting him when suitable imo.
I really think that everyone needs to rememeber who Lewis Young is, he is a a backup and as a backup we need to have a little more faith in him, look where we would be without him? think about that get onboard and pump up his tyres a little , whilst he is down a little support from all may prove to be a benefit . he wasnt picked up to be the main man.
Great post.
He is playing one if the hardest spots where every error is magnified and he is then labelled a dud.
A midfielder misses a handball or kick but then does something good the error is usually forgiven. Do the same in defence and many want them cut off the list.
Kemp makes mistakes too but has been solid and both kemp and young are playing massive roles and i think so far they have both been serviceable which is all you can ask with no generals like Weitering or doc assisting.
Also he wad playing to his potential what people were moaning about was consistency.
Semantics to a point.
If he does 1 good, athletic, eye-popping thing a game, and goes missing for the rest of it, is that because he hasn't reached his potential or he isn't consistent?
I'd say its potential.
If he has 1 solid game 1 week and a nothing game the next week, i'd say that is consistency.
He may have put together the odd solid game over his career, but he hasn't earned himself a 3 brownlow vote game in the way Nic Nat did. He is capable of it.....which is why its been frustrating.
Previously, people have seen glimpses, and extrapolate that out to a good performance.
When you break it down, the rest of the performances have usually been very much sub par. He is remembered for the 'almost' mark of the week attempts, and not for going missing for 20 minutes at a time. This is why i went to great depth to show people perceptions of what he was doing, was out of whack with what he was actually doing. Opposite was true with Pittonet/Silvagni.
NOW he is starting to find some more consistency and using his gifts we all knew he had. Taking some marks. Getting some ground balls. Sticking some tackles. Kicking some goals. This should be the norm from him, not the exception.
I said all along, i've got no issue with him, but he needed to perform, not just get a gig based on potential. He is starting to perform and we should keep it that way.
My only worry is that he is peforming now because he is fit and healthy. After getting banged up week in and week out, he may not be able to perform in the same way. Won't be able to jump as high, run as fast and pressure in the same manner due to niggles/injury. THEN it may become an issue.
I still maintain we run with 1 ruck, and he is my preference for now.
Maybe switch him out for Pittonet if he starts to carry a niggle, but don't play both.
I really think that everyone needs to rememeber who Lewis Young is, he is a a backup and as a backup we need to have a little more faith in him, look where we would be without him? think about that get onboard and pump up his tyres a little , whilst he is down a little support from all may prove to be a benefit . he wasnt picked up to be the main man.
People need to remember that he was also holding down a key post for a whole season and looked like a million bucks. Thats why we gave him a long term contract.
Since then, he is gone from a starter, to a backup....and a backup of a backup at that! We were choosing to play him behind Weitering, McGovern, Kemp and Marchbank in that role, despite 3 of them not actually being suited to it.
As i just got saying about TDK. Its about potential. He had it. He fulfilled it. He lost it.
He should not be judged with kid gloves because he has gone backwards as a player....and right at a point in time where we need him the most.
Great post.
He is playing one if the hardest spots where every error is magnified and he is then labelled a dud.
A midfielder misses a handball or kick but then does something good the error is usually forgiven. Do the same in defence and many want them cut off the list.
Kemp makes mistakes too but has been solid and both kemp and young are playing massive roles and i think so far they have both been serviceable which is all you can ask with no generals like Weitering or doc assisting.
How many mistakes did Young actually make?
There was the soft, front on free to Lynch that should have been play on. He made up ground on Balta and tackled just after Balta kicked for goal. His tackle on Lynch didn’t stick but Lynch had the advantage.
Young stuck his marks and spoiled when that was the best option - something Kemp should take note of - and his spoils killed the ball.
Finally, his disposal was excellent, unlike that of Saad, Williams and Boyd.
Young isn’t Weitering but he’s doing a decent job as a stand in. Weitering makes life easier for all of our defenders and Young is no exception. I expect him to stay in the 22 when Weiters is back and play even better footy.
Semantics to a point.
If he does 1 good, athletic, eye-popping thing a game, and goes missing for the rest of it, is that because he hasn't reached his potential or he isn't consistent?
I'd say its potential.
If he has 1 solid game 1 week and a nothing game the next week, i'd say that is consistency.
He may have put together the odd solid game over his career, but he hasn't earned himself a 3 brownlow vote game in the way Nic Nat did. He is capable of it.....which is why its been frustrating.
Previously, people have seen glimpses, and extrapolate that out to a good performance.
When you break it down, the rest of the performances have usually been very much sub par. He is remembered for the 'almost' mark of the week attempts, and not for going missing for 20 minutes at a time. This is why i went to great depth to show people perceptions of what he was doing, was out of whack with what he was actually doing. Opposite was true with Pittonet/Silvagni.
NOW he is starting to find some more consistency and using his gifts we all knew he had. Taking some marks. Getting some ground balls. Sticking some tackles. Kicking some goals. This should be the norm from him, not the exception.
I said all along, i've got no issue with him, but he needed to perform, not just get a gig based on potential. He is starting to perform and we should keep it that way.
My only worry is that he is peforming now because he is fit and healthy. After getting banged up week in and week out, he may not be able to perform in the same way. Won't be able to jump as high, run as fast and pressure in the same manner due to niggles/injury. THEN it may become an issue.
I still maintain we run with 1 ruck, and he is my preference for now.
Maybe switch him out for Pittonet if he starts to carry a niggle, but don't play both.
I reckon the best way to develop your potential is to play senior games against seasoned opposition.
You learn from the best, even if they give you a hiding or two in the early contests.
De Koning's starting to show us what he's capable of because he's been getting those experiences against the very best in the latter part of last season and early this year.
You don't get that playing VFL.
Consistency is another thing that comes from experience.
It sometimes takes a while...so if there is the odd run of bad games we have to accept that as part of the development.
It's why it's probably not a great idea to make judgements in the moment, or at a certain point of a players early career.
I reckon the best way to develop your potential is to play senior games against seasoned opposition.
You learn from the best, even if they give you a hiding or two in the early contests.
De Koning's starting to show us what he's capable of because he's been getting those experiences against the very best in the latter part of last season and early this year.
You don't get that playing VFL.
Consistency is another thing that comes from experience.
It sometimes takes a while...so if there is the odd run of bad games we have to accept that as part of the development.
It's why it's probably not a great idea to make judgements in the moment, or at a certain point of a players early career.
You can also ruin a player and his confidence by gifting them games before they are ready for it.
Dow and O'Brien immediately spring to mind.
Doubley so for young rucks/kpps.
You can also ruin a player and his confidence by gifting them games before they are ready for it.
Dow and O'Brien immediately spring to mind.
Doubley so for young rucks/kpps.
The Dow and O'Brien situation was an intersting one.
Bolton played them early and they seemed to be going OK.
Teague came in and reverted to his more experienced group.
Have a look at Dow's stats in 2018-2019 and you can actually see the point where it goes off the rails.
"Rounds 12-13 2019."
I don't think DeKoning has been damaged by being 'gifted' games early.
I think he's been managed well, getting games and experience as it was considered he needed that exposure.
He's progressing well over the last two seasons...and the best may be yet to come.
Dow and Obrien continued playing U18's footy at senior level and couldnt handle the pressure being thrown in at the deep end and the expectations of being top ten picks. TDK was pick 30 and with that comes less expectation and being a big bloke always had some leeway and allowance for a slower development if needed. Like his brother though he has always looked comfortable and has made steady progress to the point now he is the clear No 1 ruck at the club like his brother who is the clear No 1 key defender at Geelong. Will be interesting to see how Paddy Dow goes at the Saints and the expectations that Lyon and SOS put on him along with the rank and file.
I don't think DeKoning has been damaged by being 'gifted' games early.
I think he's been managed well, getting games and experience as it was considered he needed that exposure.
He's progressing well over the last two seasons...and the best may be yet to come.
I wasn't suggesting we have damaged him. Just pointing out that its more complex than simply play the kids and get them up to speed.
A first for me too. If he didn't get his foot to it, it was unfortunately a free kick.
And Charlie is adamant that he did get a boot to the ball 🤔
I know that there’s often a rush of blood in that situation, and there’s the desire to avoid the pressure of a set shot; as per the Sheriff against Melbourne. However, game awareness should mean taking the set shot after milking 30 seconds from the clock.
I really think that everyone needs to rememeber who Lewis Young is, he is a a backup and as a backup we need to have a little more faith in him, look where we would be without him? think about that get onboard and pump up his tyres a little , whilst he is down a little support from all may prove to be a benefit . he wasnt picked up to be the main man.
I thought he did very well the other night. Sure panicked a few times and got out positioned and out muscled but that happens to the best. His DE was very high (90s IIRC) which is good. You cant ask for any more than what he has delivered in the last two weeks.
Yeah, if Young was our main man you’d be nervous but he’s designed to be a stand in or accomplice for Weiters, he’s doing ok in Weiters absence.
Will he hold his place when Weiters is fit…?
I wasn't suggesting we have damaged him. Just pointing out that its more complex than simply play the kids and get them up to speed.
No doubt.
And the folks in the best position to make those decisions are those who work closest with them.
In the past there's been some fair criticism of the way we develop players.
'Development' has taken a back seat to 'results' at times.
I'd like to think we're maybe getting better at that with the current regime in place.
Binns is probably a good example of how we're taking a more measured approach.
Despite calls for his inclusion towards the end of last season, after some great form in the VFL, there was a resistance to pull the switch.
I'm sure we'll see him at some stage this year.
But in the end the greatest benefits for his development will come when he starts mixing it at AFL level.
Yeah, if Young was our main man you’d be nervous but he’s designed to be a stand in or accomplice for Weiters, he’s doing ok in Weiters absence.
Will he hold his place when Weiters is fit…?
I reckon he will.
As I wrote above, Weitering's presence helps all of our defenders and Young will have the added benefit of not standing the opposition's best tall forward for most of the game.
As much as I like Kemp, it's a huge ask for him to stand the likes of Nick Larkey or Coleman-Jones. You need gorilla minders to play on the gorillas and, on this year's form, Young is up to the task.
Im a fan for young and think he is above average AFL key defender.
Issue I have we cant have too many players that lack run in the back half. Despite Kemp not being a gorilla he provides plenty of rebound and disposal ability . We have a lot of hybrid defenders - Kemp, Gov, Marchy with Weitering, Saad and Williams, Newman and Boyd can take on any forward mix and provide plenty moving forward
Im a fan for young and think he is above average AFL key defender.
Issue I have we cant have too many players that lack run in the back half. Despite Kemp not being a gorilla he provides plenty of rebound and disposal ability . We have a lot of hybrid defenders - Kemp, Gov, Marchy with Weitering, Saad and Williams, Newman and Boyd can take on any forward mix and provide plenty moving forward
Marchbank will be delisted at years end and shouldn't be on our plans. Too unreliable from the point of view of getting on the park.
I reckon he will.
As I wrote above, Weitering's presence helps all of our defenders and Young will have the added benefit of not standing the opposition's best tall forward for most of the game.
As much as I like Kemp, it's a huge ask for him to stand the likes of Nick Larkey or Coleman-Jones. You need gorilla minders to play on the gorillas and, on this year's form, Young is up to the task.
Young is holding the fort so to speak but I will be very relieved when Weiters returns. I agree that Young will probably play alongside Weiters and they should make a good combination against opposing key forwards.
Problem with Young playing alongside Wieters is that we lose run and creativity big time.
Young’s best is dour, do you really want to drop McGovern or Kemp ?
In modern football EVERYONE must be willing and able to create and run one failure and the whole team starts to flounder.
I agree that Young will probably play alongside Weiters and they should make a good combination against opposing key forwards.
I can't see it happening, we are going to drop McGovern or Kemp based on form, Boyd the one under the pump, and I can't see him being dropped either.
Saad, Newman and Williams are in good form.
For me it has to be Young who steps aside.
Marchbank (if fit), McGovern, Kemp, Weitering and Young.
Do they all fit?
Rumours should be taken with a great deal of caution.
But rumours sometimes have elements of truth, even if it's not the full story.
There were some around last year regarding the relationship in terms of the 'level of confidence' between some of our defenders.
I want to see how they all combine and work together when Weitering and Marchbank return
Semantics to a point.
If he does 1 good, athletic, eye-popping thing a game, and goes missing for the rest of it, is that because he hasn't reached his potential or he isn't consistent?
I'd say its potential.
If he has 1 solid game 1 week and a nothing game the next week, i'd say that is consistency.
He may have put together the odd solid game over his career, but he hasn't earned himself a 3 brownlow vote game in the way Nic Nat did. He is capable of it.....which is why its been frustrating.
Previously, people have seen glimpses, and extrapolate that out to a good performance.
When you break it down, the rest of the performances have usually been very much sub par. He is remembered for the 'almost' mark of the week attempts, and not for going missing for 20 minutes at a time. This is why i went to great depth to show people perceptions of what he was doing, was out of whack with what he was actually doing. Opposite was true with Pittonet/Silvagni.
NOW he is starting to find some more consistency and using his gifts we all knew he had. Taking some marks. Getting some ground balls. Sticking some tackles. Kicking some goals. This should be the norm from him, not the exception.
I said all along, i've got no issue with him, but he needed to perform, not just get a gig based on potential. He is starting to perform and we should keep it that way.
My only worry is that he is peforming now because he is fit and healthy. After getting banged up week in and week out, he may not be able to perform in the same way. Won't be able to jump as high, run as fast and pressure in the same manner due to niggles/injury. THEN it may become an issue.
I still maintain we run with 1 ruck, and he is my preference for now.
Maybe switch him out for Pittonet if he starts to carry a niggle, but don't play both.
No. He was playing better than that. He wasn't a highlight reel player, he was just rucking well for a quarter or two and taking a strong mark every week that was eye popping. Then there is the fact that he hits the scoreboard, and genuinely creates panic when he drifts forward because he's athletic and can actually play as a forward.
No. He was playing better than that. He wasn't a highlight reel player, he was just rucking well for a quarter or two and taking a strong mark every week that was eye popping. Then there is the fact that he hits the scoreboard, and genuinely creates panic when he drifts forward because he's athletic and can actually play as a forward.
Yes, it seems pretty cut and dry.
Critics of TDK like to cherry-pick, when he rucks well they claim he can't hold marks, if he's hitting the scoreboard they will claim he was beaten in the ruck. Some of it is because they went early a year or two back calling him a dud and now they are happy to dig a hole just to stick to their guns, they sit quietly waiting for TDK to stumble so they can offer up the "told you so!"
FFS, how the hell can someone of TDK's stature and capability be some fans whipping boy? :o
btw., TDK's highlights aren't just as good as what opponents can do, they are often things other players his size just cannot do, stuff Grundy was previously capable of. Perhaps only a fit Draper is a current AFL equivalent.
If TDK becomes consistent in his output he'll be an object of AFL wide desire, now he is rapidly learning where to be and when, and he is also learning how to influence opponents using his positioning and presence, he is capable of getting to positions ahead of 95% of KPP opponents not just ruck opponents.
I watched last Thursday expecting the new rules to greatly benefit Nankervis, simple because they favour size and weight, but I was pleasantly surprised. TDK held his own, and when TDK found himself on the right side of the contest Nankervis couldn't go with him even if he started just an arm length away.
The Cats are still into him, they aren't going to let up, and others will join the fight to tear him away. They aren't interested in him because he's a highlight reel player. ;)
Problem with Young playing alongside Wieters is that we lose run and creativity big time.
Young’s best is dour, do you really want to drop McGovern or Kemp ?
In modern football EVERYONE must be willing and able to create and run one failure and the whole team starts to flounder.
Why do we lose run and creativity with Young and Weitering playing together?
Yes, we have to lose one of our medium defenders (most likely Kemp as he is playing as the second key defender) but we still have an abundance of run and creativity with those that remain. Weitering is the key to our defensive run and creativity. He may not do much running but his positioning and ball use creates opportunities; his kick across the ground to Hollands in the Melbourne game is a prime example.
I think that a backline of Weitering, Young, McGovern, Newman, Saad, Williams and Kemp/Boyd has more run and creativity than a backline of Young, McGovern, Newman, Saad, Williams, Kemp and Boyd. It would also be a stronger defence with the ability to counter two genuine key forwards.
Interesting discussion on the wireless:
A field umpire cannot use the score review process to determine whether a free kick should be paid.
The goal umpire called Charlie’s goal attempt a behind. The reviewer determined that it was “umpire’s call”, ie a behind. The point should stand and should be restored to our score (my conclusion).
I don't get any knocks on TDK... coming along nicely.
Still concerned with Hollands... yes, fantastic at 'pressure acts', first rate, but still seems to fumble with his offensive game. Yep, just a kid, too light and is learning, and maybe what he is doing at present is exactly what the coaches want from him, but I'd like to see him develop being dangerous with aggott in hand.
And I'm not in the pumping up Young group. Yep, doing a job, and doing it adequately. Does look better than last year but is that just feint praise? (Threw that in for you, Ye Rat O' the River ;) ;D - sorry folks, its an 'in joke' between us). What One of the things that Young lacks is authority, which Weiters has in spades (yeah, yeah I know comparisons are unfair on Young... but the bottom line is that Weiters brings a great deal to our defense, and with him there, our defense is at its best which is what we want - our best).
Why do we lose run and creativity with Young and Weitering playing together?
Yes, we have to lose one of our medium defenders (most likely Kemp as he is playing as the second key defender) but we still have an abundance of run and creativity with those that remain. Weitering is the key to our defensive run and creativity. He may not do much running but his positioning and ball use creates opportunities; his kick across the ground to Hollands in the Melbourne game is a prime example.
I think that a backline of Weitering, Young, McGovern, Newman, Saad, Williams and Kemp/Boyd has more run and creativity than a backline of Young, McGovern, Newman, Saad, Williams, Kemp and Boyd. It would also be a stronger defence with the ability to counter two genuine key forwards.
Any good defence must have aerial stopping power and Weiters and Young are our best available combo to get that imo, especially when we face the bigger/taller opposition forwards. Agree, that leaves plenty of scope to provide the additional run and creativity we need, depending on form and availability.
No. He was playing better than that. He wasn't a highlight reel player, he was just rucking well for a quarter or two and taking a strong mark every week that was eye popping. Then there is the fact that he hits the scoreboard, and genuinely creates panic when he drifts forward because he's athletic and can actually play as a forward.
I don't want to start this whole debate again, but you are proving my point. He 'hits the scoreboard'....Its a bit of an exageration of his efforts. He only averages a goal every 3 games.
Mitch McGovern averages almost a goal a game and he's been played in defence for half his career.
Silvagni averages 3 goals every 4 games.
Cripps averages over half a goal a game.
People remember the good things he does, but remember them happening more than they actually do. His actual output has been relatively poor considering the hype.
Thats why i come across as negative, because i point out he hasn't been as good as people say. Showing potential, absolutely. Not maximising it......yet.
I don't get any knocks on TDK... coming along nicely.
Still concerned with Hollands... yes, fantastic at 'pressure acts', first rate, but still seems to fumble with his offensive game. Yep, just a kid, too light and is learning, and maybe what he is doing at present is exactly what the coaches want from him, but I'd like to see him develop being dangerous with aggott in hand.
And I'm not in the pumping up Young group. Yep, doing a job, and doing it adequately. Does look better than last year but is that just feint praise? (Threw that in for you, Ye Rat O' the River ;) ;D - sorry folks, its an 'in joke' between us). What One of the things that Young lacks is authority, which Weiters has in spades (yeah, yeah I know comparisons are unfair on Young... but the bottom line is that Weiters brings a great deal to our defense, and with him there, our defense is at its best which is what we want - our best).
I would say
admirably rather than
adequately.
Young has been our only tall key defender in both games. In Round Zero, he had Daniher, Hipwood and, occasionally, McInerney to contend with. Daniher managed 14 disposals and one goal and Hipwood had 9 disposals and one goal. Young had 14 disposals, took 6 marks and made 7 spoils. Of course, Young is part of a defensive unit and he relies on his fellow defenders for assistance just as he leaves his man to provide assistance when required.
Young played mostly on Lynch in Round One and, yes, you could argue that Lynch was underdone but he is still one of the premier key forwards in the game. Lynch had 10 disposals and kicked two goals, both from soft free kicks (one against De Koning). Young had 17 disposals (at 94%), took 10 marks and made six spoils. Again, Young was ably supported by his teammates in defence, including our wingers.
Lynch's stats could have been a lot better if it hadn't been for Hollands covering some distance to spoil Lynch's marking attempts on at least two occasions. On one of those occasions, Hollands got clean possession and rebounded from our defensive 50. Yes, Ollie looks a little fumbly at times but he's in the team because of the effort he makes to get to contests and affect the outcome.
I don't want to start this whole debate again, but you are proving my point. He 'hits the scoreboard'....Its a bit of an exageration of his efforts. He only averages a goal every 3 games.
Mitch McGovern averages almost a goal a game and he's been played in defence for half his career.
Silvagni averages 3 goals every 4 games.
Cripps averages over half a goal a game.
People remember the good things he does, but remember them happening more than they actually do. His actual output has been relatively poor considering the hype.
Thats why i come across as negative, because i point out he hasn't been as good as people say. Showing potential, absolutely. Not maximising it......yet.
Two thirds of Mitch's goals came from his three years as a forward with the Crows. Exclude those three years and he averages less than one goal every two games and he played as a forward in at least half of those games. That's one of the reasons he was moved to defence. De Koning averages around one goal every three games, playing as a ruckman. Max Gawn has to be one of the best goal kicking ruckmen and he averages around one goal every two games. But then, Gawn doesn't have the likes of Charlie and Harry dominating the goal kicking.
The thing is that when Tom does go forward, he is a genuine scoring threat and the opposition have to send their ruckman or a key defender to him. That makes life easier for our forwards.
Why do we lose run and creativity with Young and Weitering playing together?
Weiters for all his attributes is not a dasher, if Young stays in then one of McGovern or kemp goes out… therefore attack is reduced
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/went-pretty-hard-coachs-bye-plan-theory-as-blues-eye-bigname-reinforcements/news-story/84865ed3b916bb002c18a921e325c628?fbclid=IwAR2zC-FExDYxX4kQ3-685KptHbi65ixu4FS6kVHldjSH54forIz4z8bWsAs
Young has been our only tall key defender in both games. In Round Zero, he had Daniher, Hipwood and, occasionally, McInerney to contend with. Daniher managed 14 disposals and one goal and Hipwood had 9 disposals and one goal. Young had 14 disposals, took 6 marks and made 7 spoils.
Young played mostly on Lynch in Round One and, yes, you could argue that Lynch was underdone but he is still one of the premier key forwards in the game. Lynch had 10 disposals and kicked two goals, both from soft free kicks (one against De Koning). Young had 17 disposals (at 94%), took 10 marks and made six spoils.
How many of Young's 16 marks were contested or intercept marks compared with short pass-uncontested marks provided by teammates?
People remember the good things he does, but remember them happening more than they actually do. His actual output has been relatively poor considering the hype.
Thats why i come across as negative, because i point out he hasn't been as good as people say. Showing potential, absolutely. Not maximising it......yet.
It's the old 'unholy trinity' of player evaluation.
Observation, Statistics and Bias
Each has it's limitations.
Observation-What someone sees at the ground is different to what someone views on the television. Small efforts/ one percenters can be picked up on the vision or totally missed through both mediums depending on your concentration at the time or your position in the stands.
Statistics- are useful but are notoriously dubious because they are a raw figure that can describe a number of sceanrios.
As an example10 effective kicks that go to a team-mate don't necessarily advantage a team in the same way as another ten. It's situational
and finally
Bias-even the best of us if, we have a pre-determined opinion of a player, will give a greater emphasis to the strengths or faults we see.
As an example
Poster 'A' will say-
Harry had a good game played well around the ground, missed a couple, but the good outweighed the bad."
Poster 'B' will say-
Harry missed two sitters, nearly cost us the game, momentum killer"
(You won't hear a peep about the good aspects of his game.)
It's why we see players differently....and neither is completlely right or wrong.
They're just different opinions.
And they're our opinions at different times in a player's career.
So if some say early in 2023 that TDK isn't quite reaching expectations...it's probably a fair comment.
Ask the question early in 2024 and a few folks have probably changed sides.
The trick is not to take too long before you come around or you might miss the boat. ;) :D
Weiters for all his attributes is not a dasher, if Young stays in then one of McGovern or kemp goes out… therefore attack is reduced
But Weiters enables rebounding from defence by his individual defensive efforts, his defensive generalship, his ability to be a target when we get possession and his creative use of the ball. Weiters may not run and carry himself but he enables his teammates to run and carry.
There's no point having an attacking defender if he can't beat his opponent and Kemp will struggle against Larkey or Coleman-Jones and Treacy or Amiss the following round.
How many of Young's 16 marks were contested or intercept marks compared with short pass-uncontested marks provided by teammates?
Young had one contested mark as did McGovern. Kemp had two. Young had five contested possessions, McGovern had eight and Kemp had six. Young made six spoils, Kemp five and McGovern made two. Kemp and Young both had seven intercepts, McGovern had nine.
If Young's teammates lack confidence in him, why would they short pass to him?
It's the old 'unholy trinity' of player evaluation.
Observation, Statistics and Bias
Each has it's limitations.
Observation-What someone sees at the ground is different to what someone views on the television. Small efforts/ one percenters can be picked up on the vision or totally missed through both mediums depending on your concentration at the time or your position in the stands.
Statistics- are useful but are notoriously dubious because they are a raw figure that can describe a number of sceanrios.
As an example10 effective kicks that go to a team-mate don't necessarily advantage a team in the same way as another ten. It's situational
and finally
Bias-even the best of us if, we have a pre-determined opinion of a player, will give a greater emphasis to the strengths or faults we see.
As an example
Poster 'A' will say-
Harry had a good game played well around the ground, missed a couple, but the good outweighed the bad."
Poster 'B' will say-
Harry missed two sitters, nearly cost us the game, momentum killer"
(You won't hear a peep about the good aspects of his game.)
It's why we see players differently....and neither is completlely right or wrong.
They're just different opinions.
And they're our opinions at different times in a player's career.
So if some say early in 2023 that TDK isn't quite reaching expectations...it's probably a fair comment.
Ask the question early in 2024 and a few folks have probably changed sides.
The trick is not to take too long before you come around or you might miss the boat. ;) :D
Yeah yeah, you think i'm very biased against TDK, i get it. I disagree, but you would expect me to say that.
Its hard to keep track of a particular posters thoughts on an issue on here, ironically, similar to your take on here.
Observation - some posts you might not read. Some posts you might not comprehend, or at least not fully understand....and part of that could be on me for not explaining well enough.
Statistics - a lot of 'negative' posts by me gets attention, but thats because they end up in a thread of arguments because there might be a lot of people who disagree. Whereas the positive stuff gets glossed over because its the same as everyone else.
Bias - Similar to the above, but you look for the negative and ignore the positive, or at least focus on that more.
Its funny, the whole TDK debate took 2 shapes.
1. Pittonet > TDK in pure rucking ability.
2. TDK < Silvagni (or others) around the ground.
1. People debated that 1 didn't matter. So Pittonet shouldn't play as hitouts don't matter.
2. People ignored the fact that Silvagni (or others) did better around the ground.....although slightly less in the ruck.....which people decided didn't matter anyway.
People wanted it both ways. Its why the argument kept going round in circles.
All of this was off the back of my contention that the team only needs 1 ruck to reach peak performance. Some disagreed with that, which is fine, but results seem to prove otherwise (when taking opponent into account).
I do think you have a bias towards and against some players.
We all do.
So that's no biggie.
It only becomes an issue when we believe that we are the only ones who are 'right' and everyone else is a bit thick and doesn't really understand the points we're making.
What may seem a good assessment at the time might look a bit short sighted 12 months down the track.
I think we'd all be a touch embarrassed if we had a look at some of the things we wrote 4 or 5 years ago.
I'm biased
I favour the hard worker, less skilled player.
I'll prefer them over a more talented player who doesn't always go at full effort.
I'll give them credit and comment on them, knowing at the same time they'll likely be rubbished because others see them as a liability.
I like to see the little positives and their little wins.
It may be as simple as a Wiggins shepherd for Judd.
The last person to recognise our bias is ourselves.
In in-game threads you can almost predict when someone with bias will step in with the negative comment.
You won't hear the same from that poster if the player does something well.
A lack of bias shows when we give mention to both the positive and the negative.
The thing is these are all different viewpoints.
Because football is a complex game.
And it's a team sport
The champion player is often only able to do the things they do because the support is there for them to perform.
It's all so full of variables like development, playing position, form, injury etc.
You made good points on the Silvagni v TDK issue. I understood them. I could see merit in them.
But looking big picture/future what was the best option.
Who had the most upside-Tom or Jack.
Which player did we think was going to end up the better and more valuable player?
Who needed game time at senior level?
You made good points on the Silvagni v TDK issue. I understood them. I could see merit in them.
But looking big picture/future what was the best option.
Who had the most upside-Tom or Jack.
Which player did we think was going to end up the better and more valuable player?
Who needed game time at senior level?
What is the end game though Lods?
If we are an under 15's side and we are trying to develop everyone, then sure.
If we are genuine finals contendors, then sorry, now is not the best time for development.
We 'developed' people in the prelim final.
IMO, we didn't pick the best team to actually win the game. I said as much before, and after.......and all throughout the year too.
I even said that i would've left Harry or Pittonet out of that prelim side and 100% would've played TDK.
Do you remember that? No, nobody does. They remember the other stuff i said throughout the year though.
I want what is best for the club.
If that means TDK needs to increase his output or kick off the dew in the 2's, so be it.
If that means Pitto never plays again, so be it.
If that means Jack is picked and has to tough it out as a ruckmen for the rest of his career, so be it (for the record, people fixate on Jack, but i always talked about any other option, be that Charlie, Harry or Cripps. The 2nd ruck, needs to be a non-ruck...or be capable of holding down another position on his own merit).
In the best 22 threads this year, i've picked TDK and left out Pittonet. Do people remember that? No, i'm still anti-TDK though.
People talk about my bias' over the years, bring up carrazzo, scotland....whoever. Do they remember what i was saying? No, they just remember that i was 'anti' them.
I always said we wouldn't win a flag with Carrazzo/Scotland in our bests. I was right.
Doesn't mean they couldn't play, just that we needed more a-grade talent and elite ball users.
I can argue both sides of the coin. I often take a contrary view for arguments sake. People who know me in real life know my real thoughts on the matter. People on here get a snippet of me that is shaped by opposing views on here. ;)
I did remember what you said about the preliminary final side.
I think that it also had a bit to do with expectations.
I thought our race was run, we'd done well but that it was a bridge too far on a foreign field, and that ended up being the case.
I kind of remember you had the opposite view and even posted that you couldn't see why we couldn't go all the way.
Was it team selection...or did we just run out of steam.
We'll never know.
We both have different opinions as to why we lost.
I also recognised that now you have elevated Tom above Pittonet.
Bias can be positive or negative, strong or weak and that's my perception of where we're at at the moment.
You still haven't completely warmed to Tom, but for now consider him a better option than Pittonet.
On the other hand I probably have a 'postitive' bias and maybe see him as our standout number one going forward...but yep still with some improvement to come.
I really can't see Pittonet playing a lot of senior football this year and in that respect your one ruck plus back-up is probably how we'll play most of the season.
But if Pittonet starts dominating and Tom get's injured or drops off considerably who knows what the end of season games will look like.
If Young's teammates lack confidence in him, why would they short pass to him?
Presumably they feel confident that he will take an uncontested mark if he is standing on his own.
Having said that, I am not a critic if Lewis Young. I thought he was worth a regular place in the team in his first season but that he regressed last year after seeming to lose confidence.
Marchbank will be delisted at years end and shouldn't be on our plans. Too unreliable from the point of view of getting on the park.
He's a restricted free agent this year so any club can pick him up for peanuts.. maybe North as they need defenders and can pay his hospital bills
But Weiters enables rebounding from defence by his individual defensive efforts, his defensive generalship, his ability to be a target when we get possession and his creative use of the ball. Weiters may not run and carry himself but he enables his teammates to run and carry.
There's no point having an attacking defender if he can't beat his opponent and Kemp will struggle against Larkey or Coleman-Jones and Treacy or Amiss the following round.
In short, the whole is the sum of its parts. The best overall balance is what is most important over journey.
Young has done the job for us in both games and deserves to keep his place.
Agree with DJ on Kemp...need to find appropriate matchups and remember he isn't a true key defender but more of a fill in out of necessity and with Weitering and Young in the team they get the KP defensive responsibilities first.
Yeah yeah, you think i'm very biased against TDK, i get it. I disagree, but you would expect me to say that.
Its hard to keep track of a particular posters thoughts on an issue on here, ironically, similar to your take on here.
Observation - some posts you might not read. Some posts you might not comprehend, or at least not fully understand....and part of that could be on me for not explaining well enough.
Statistics - a lot of 'negative' posts by me gets attention, but thats because they end up in a thread of arguments because there might be a lot of people who disagree. Whereas the positive stuff gets glossed over because its the same as everyone else.
Bias - Similar to the above, but you look for the negative and ignore the positive, or at least focus on that more.
Its funny, the whole TDK debate took 2 shapes.
1. Pittonet > TDK in pure rucking ability.
2. TDK < Silvagni (or others) around the ground.
1. People debated that 1 didn't matter. So Pittonet shouldn't play as hitouts don't matter.
2. People ignored the fact that Silvagni (or others) did better around the ground.....although slightly less in the ruck.....which people decided didn't matter anyway.
People wanted it both ways. Its why the argument kept going round in circles.
All of this was off the back of my contention that the team only needs 1 ruck to reach peak performance. Some disagreed with that, which is fine, but results seem to prove otherwise (when taking opponent into account).
You're clever in your arguments but myself and MBB kept saying that if we only play one ruckman it should likely be TDK in a tandem with Silvagni.
That's moot now.
We couldn't afford to lose a ruckman last season and TDK's emergence doesn't change that, it's still true. Which is why we picked up another youngster mid season.
I would say admirably rather than adequately.
When I write 'adequately' in reference to Young, it's actually a compliment, of sorts. To perform adequately in a very good defence, is doing your job. 'Impressively,' for moi, is another step. Weiters does his job impressively, as does Saad, McGovern and Newman (in our defence). Kemp and Boyd are also doing an adequate job, and we all want them to be better.
As with most of us, if Young was to recapture and even improve upon his form of 2022, I'd be rapt. And I hope he does. But we can only judge him on what he is producing right now and we can't help but compare now to his form of 2022... when he was impressive.
Individually, we had our fair share of blokes down, well down - Fantasia, Hollands, Cuningham.
Saw a stat that had Cunningham our 4th best "rated" player on the ground.......... not sure i even noticed him out there
One thing i did notice, was that our handball game looked fantastic (linking in chains, and good exits from the contest), but our field kicking was woeful
One thing i did notice, was that our handball game looked fantastic (linking in chains, and good exits from the contest), but our field kicking was woeful
I don't know if there's a statistic for handball chains but we certainly used them to good effect. It's becoming a feature of modern footy and I think we're leading the way.
I thought that our field kicking was OK, and better than Richmond's, but we had several players whose kicking was really off, eg Saad, Williams, Curnow, Owies, Fantasia. The other side of the coin is that McGovern, Young, Kemp, Newman, Cerra, Cuningham and Fogarty used the ball really well.
I think Boyd's kicking has let him down at the start of this season, he has been horribly inconsistent, but then retrospectively we hear that we've been on a heavy training load and that means tired legs. Saad has been similar, but he's on Ramadan, I can't recall if it affected him previously.
But in fairness as defenders they wear the heat for errors, a forward can have worse efficiency and seem OK.
Fantasia however is going at 45%, I've no idea why, Doc with one bung leg for half a game went at 60%.
I think Boyd's kicking has let him down at the start of this season, he has been horribly inconsistent, but then retrospectively we hear that we've been on a heavy training load and that means tired legs. Saad has been similar, but he's on Ramadan, I can't recall if it affected him previously.
But in fairness as defenders they wear the heat for errors, a forward can have worse efficiency and seem OK.
Fantasia however is going at 45%, I've no idea why, Doc with one bung leg for half a game went at 60%.
You need to look hand in hand with contested/unconctested possessions.
You can go at 75% DE when most of your possessions are uncontested and that is terrible.
You can go at 75% DE when most of your possessions are contested and that is superhuman.
Fantasia's Kicking Efficiency% is 16%, just 1 good kick from 9 so far this season.
His CP(10)/UP(9) ratio is effectively 1:1
At least we know if his DE% was 45%, and his KE% was 16%, he must have hit a few handball targets! :o
The more I look, the worse it gets, so I've stopped looking.
Fantasia's Kicking Efficiency% is 16%, just 1 good kick from 9 so far this season.
His CP(10)/UP(9) ratio is effectively 1:1
At least we know if his DE% was 45%, and his KE% was 16%, he must have hit a few handball targets! :o
The more I look, the worse it gets, so I've stopped looking.
I cant see for the life of me what the purpose was of getting this bloke into the club. He got gifted the first 2 games and showed SFA.
We have coverage in that area and even if he stayed on the park and played near his best I still prefer Motlop and Durdin over him.
I cant see for the life of me what the purpose was of getting this bloke into the club. He got gifted the first 2 games and showed SFA.
We have coverage in that area and even if he stayed on the park and played near his best I still prefer Motlop and Durdin over him.
Agree.
Called it early that we didn't need extra small forwards, rather taller KPPs, either backs or forwards.
But it was a 'free hit'. So be it.
I would've preferred a 'free hit' at something we needed, but i'm not in charge.
He better find some form come seasons end and produce in finals.
Fantasia is in good physical shape which was the challenge just needs to find some form.
I cant see for the life of me what the purpose was of getting this bloke into the club. He got gifted the first 2 games and showed SFA.
We have coverage in that area and even if he stayed on the park and played near his best I still prefer Motlop and Durdin over him.
Moneyball pick, came for free, can fill a role when needed.
Moneyball pick, came for free, can fill a role when needed.
And for all of his poor kicking, he managed to deliver the ball lace out for two goal assists against Brisbane.
I watched a replay of the Richmond game today and it was interesting to see how much time Fantasia spent in defence. He did miss a few targets by hand, but was in heavy traffic and/or being slung/tackled.
I don’t think he has been anywhere near as bad as some folk like to think … particularly when he cost us nothing and provides cover for our first choice small forwards.
Fantasia is clearly underdone and would have been playing VFL had Motlop not been injured. So it's a good thing we had him there as a back up, had a couple of moments late in the Brisbane game that helped get us over the line.
I'm not happy that Fantasia is falling short, I think we needed a serious SF/HF to mentor and to push Motlop for a slot and I had hoped Fantasia would be the potentially the right choice, but to me he looks cooked.
At this stage I suspect Motlop will waltz into the squad and that's not good for us or him!
Also I really didn't understand Durdin's selection last week, I get it that he has worked hard, but through pre-season for me Binns deserved a crack if we were going for the small running type!
It can be hard to judge the efficacy of our SFs, the better Harry and Charlie play, combined with TDK and Cripps floating forward, the less opportunity there is for the SFs to show their wares.
Fantasia is a footballer.
He does a few little things that show his aptitude as a player. For me the important hole he fills is a leadership one for the younger small forwards. Durdin and motlop might learn a bit off him. It's intangible. We'll see how he goes, but im not writing him off yet.
I like Martin, Motlop and Cottrell as my small forward setup, dont think C Durdin has shown much during his intermittent senior appearances as he just cant get the ball enough and Orazio looks like he still has some skills/smarts but he is off the pace of the game and late with his decision making and needs a series of VFL games to work his way back into form. SANFL footy is a step or two behind AFL footy and Fantasia needs more work and may be a better player in the back half of the season or even 2025 if he can avoid his usual injury vacations.
I like Martin, Motlop and Cottrell as my small forward setup, dont think C Durdin has shown much during his intermittent senior appearances as he just cant get the ball enough and Orazio looks like he still has some skills/smarts but he is off the pace of the game and late with his decision making and needs a series of VFL games to work his way back into form. SANFL footy is a step or two behind AFL footy and Fantasia needs more work and may be a better player in the back half of the season or even 2025 if he can avoid his usual injury vacations.
I'll hazard and guess and say, and I do so with sadness, Corey D will be in strife at years end. He would need to have a cracker of a year to avoid the chop me thinks.
Owies is a reliable 2nd string small foward - must keep for depth
Motlop is our best small forward by a long stretch
Durdin needs a good run at it - but even when fit just doesn't do enough in trouble the young man if he doesn't find another string in the bow other than running at opposition 100 miles per hour.
Fantasia experienced injury prone and out of touch - but is a class above on what we already have.
I'll hazard and guess and say, and I do so with sadness, Corey D will be in strife at years end. He would need to have a cracker of a year to avoid the chop me thinks.
We could have been brave and had a nibble at Ginnivan...yep he is a DH off the field and a bit of a problem child but so was Stengle when he arrived at Geelong . For all Ginnivans failings though he kicks goals and can win games and I reckon Hawthorn might have got a bargain provided he can stay out of trouble.
We could have been brave and had a nibble at Ginnivan...yep he is a DH off the field and a bit of a problem child but so was Stengle when he arrived at Geelong . For all Ginnivans failings though he kicks goals and can win games and I reckon Hawthorn might have got a bargain provided he can stay out of trouble.
TBH, I hoped we'd have a serious nibble at Bobby Hill when he wanted out of the Giants (given we are the Giants Melbourne chapter).
Fantasia is a footballer.
He does a few little things that show his aptitude as a player. For me the important hole he fills is a leadership one for the younger small forwards. Durdin and motlop might learn a bit off him. It's intangible. We'll see how he goes, but im not writing him off yet.
Nailed it Thry!
Fantasia is a newby in our team, he has just played his hundredth game and and has hardly played since leaving Essendon. Why then is he the one who is most vocal during the forwards’ team meetings and who makes a point of talking to Harry before he has a shot for goal? He is a footballer with plenty of nous and a message for his teammates.
I’ve mentioned his two goal assists against Brisbane. Then there’s his missed set shot and snap against Richmond; nine times out of ten, he scores goals from those opportunities.
Even if he spends most of the season in the VFL, he can have a positive impact on our players and our fortunes.
Fantasia is a footballer.
He does a few little things that show his aptitude as a player. For me the important hole he fills is a leadership one for the younger small forwards. Durdin and motlop might learn a bit off him. It's intangible. We'll see how he goes, but im not writing him off yet.
Noticed him doing all the talking in the forwards huddle a few times, so l think he’s there for more than “just” possessions.
Seems we are still in the hunt for a quality small forward after years of searching. What a tough position to fill!
Personally don't think Durdin will make it. Which opens a small forward spot on the list - hopefully a gem pops up during the mid season draft.
Agree on Fantasia....probably came in earlier than expected with the injury to Motlop and Owies was also injured for a period in the pre-season. It's widely acknowledged that the small forward is a difficult position to play. He's there for backup/experience and while his output has been small, his ball use for the most part has been really good. He might make way for Motlop but I wouldn't be writing him off yet.
I still like the Owies/Motlop set up. Owies is already on his 1.5 goals/game average from last year and that's hard to complain about. Martin plays a slightly different role with his marking ability....so for mine, they're the 3 first choice options.
If both Martin and Motlop come back in for the game against North, it might be Fantasia and Cunningham that go out.
If both Martin and Motlop come back in for the game against North, it might be Fantasia and Cunningham that go out.
You are probably correct, but our apparent game plan changes make it seem less cut and dry than it was before, the roles appear to be more specialised than previous seasons.
For example, last year Owies was basically a deep runner and you could find him all over the deck from FF to FB, this year he seems to be staying closer to the F50. Whether that is a symptom of personal changes like our D50 or a deliberate tactic I can't tell. Maybe with Williams, Saad and Boyd all in D50 we just do not need the SFs running so deeply, if so that'll be good for Motlop who is probably the least aerobic.
We will probably need a few more rounds and some ins and outs to make sense of it, it will start to show in the heat maps.
Agree on Fantasia....probably came in earlier than expected with the injury to Motlop and Owies was also injured for a period in the pre-season. It's widely acknowledged that the small forward is a difficult position to play. He's there for backup/experience and while his output has been small, his ball use for the most part has been really good. He might make way for Motlop but I wouldn't be writing him off yet.
I still like the Owies/Motlop set up. Owies is already on his 1.5 goals/game average from last year and that's hard to complain about. Martin plays a slightly different role with his marking ability....so for mine, they're the 3 first choice options.
If both Martin and Motlop come back in for the game against North, it might be Fantasia and Cunningham that go out.
Why does everyone forget about fogerty?
I'd drop him before leaving out Martin and Cuningham.
Why does everyone forget about fogerty?
I'd drop him before leaving out Martin and Cuningham.
fog for all his faults has had a bigger say in our fortunes this season (and part of last) than most of the rest. His forward pressure game against Brisbane was a big factor in the comeback.
Fogarty got coaches votes in the opening round game against Brisbane, so he'd be unlucky to go out after one quiet game against Richmond.
I thought Fogarty has been OK from limited possessions, if you aren't getting a lot of footy at least you better not waste it, and he hasn't!
Fogarty has a defensive pressure side to his game which might appeal to Voss and his introduction into the team last season after being ignored for a long while helped propel the team forwards and into finals. You need your Indians like Fogarty and Cottrell to support the silky stars....
I still like the Owies/Motlop set up. Owies is already on his 1.5 goals/game average from last year and that's hard to complain about.
amazing what kicking straight does for you!
FWIW, i'm not suggesting i would drop Fogarty, but nobody has even mentioned his name in terms of small forwards.
Everyone talking about the pressure he provides, and that shouldn't go unnoticed.
However, in the same breathe people are suggesting Cuningham should/could make way.....despite the fact he has had more pressure acts than Fogarty and every other small forward we have.
So if its good enough for fogarty, why not cunners?
FWIW, i'm not suggesting i would drop Fogarty, but nobody has even mentioned his name in terms of small forwards.
Everyone talking about the pressure he provides, and that shouldn't go unnoticed.
However, in the same breathe people are suggesting Cuningham should/could make way.....despite the fact he has had more pressure acts than Fogarty and every other small forward we have.
So if its good enough for fogarty, why not cunners?
Fogarty and Cuningham have different roles to Motlop, Durdin, Owies and Fantasia. They are forwards/midfielders rather than small forwards … and both have performed that role well so far this season.
I guess the bloke pressing them for a spot will be Elijah Hollands, but he has to get some runs on the board first.