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Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #120 –
Quote from: blueday on
His kicking has been pretty good, if you bother to look at the stats and not just follow in mindless media.

Yep, 20 goals 12 behinds for the year is not bad at all and an improvement. Good thing the stats dont collect out of bounds though. His field kicking is not so sharp either.
He was recruited as a rookie with his major weakness being his kicking, but with potential in other areas. Yet it is only 5 years later that we get him a kicking coach.

It is disgraceful for a supposedly professional football club and I'm a little over paying a membership to a club that keeps stuffing it up.

Other stats that matter include a season percentage of 66 and a 138 point defeat this round just past.  I attended our previous record defeat and this was worse because it looked like the players were actually trying. It shows just how far behind we are.  We can look for silver linings by all means but im struggling to find them in many numbers at the moment. Except only 6 weeks till the end of the season.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #121 –
None of us on here know exactly how our players are spoken to.

Speaking purely on a general level, I find it both laughable and concerning that there are still dinosaurs out there who think that because someone is a professional athlete, is a "big boy", that they can be spoken to any which way, be abused, be bullied etc., and somehow, because they're "big and tough", they should be able to take it. Physical strength has nothing whatsoever to do with emotional strength, receiving and learning from criticism etc.

Communication lines must be clear and unambiguous at all times, people must be able to be corrected, taught well, and encouraged to do better. There are ways of communicating to someone that they've done something wrong, disobeyed team rules etc. Several decades of studying humanity, and expressing that knowledge through Psychology, Psychiatry etc., have shown that giving someone a bake or a spray in the old fashioned way rarely works. If you have to do it, do it properly.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #122 –
I also think that sometimes we forget that a lot of these guys are just kids.
You can't excuse attitude in 100 game players...they've been in the system long enough.
...and you get exceptions like Cripps who has a strength of purpose far in advance of his years (future leader).
But consider that for all of their football careers these kids have been the elite.
The best!
They've dominated their respective competitions.
In their first few years of senior competition, for the first time in their lives, it's the opposite.
They're not the best....they're the least.
Coupled with that is the speculation.
Will they make it?
Do they really belong at this level?

Now in a strong team like a Hawthorn or a Fremantle there are role models.
There are "protectors"
...and importantly players are allowed to develop at a lower level (VFL) and just given a taste of senior football as they're deemed ready.
When they do get to play in the top side it's usually with strong support all over the field.

Contrast that with a young player at Carlton at the moment.
If you're called up it's an "everyman for himself' situation.
Chances are you're thrust into a pressure situation and every mistake is highlighted.
There's no opportunity to develop any type of on-field connection or to understand your role in the team because the team changes on a  weekly basis.
As far as support....forget it.
Other players have enough to do.
If you get a head pat you're going OK!
If you do get a game you're probably only going to be there for a week or two....they're doing a little 'list management' exercise at the moment.

Now some people have expressed the opinion that there has been a huge over-reaction to last Friday's loss
In light of the above you can understand that point of view.
It's a young inexperienced side who haven't played a lot together.
But here's the problem.....
We've been saying these exact same things for over a decade.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #123 –
Quote from: blue4life on
Pagan was a realist who knew what it took to succeed and knew that Carlton didn't have it, he delisted 17 players after his first season and only Simon Fletcher, who subsequently played 8 games for Richmond, was picked up by another AFL club.
Our list was shocking and he had no draft picks to improve it, then when he wanted to drop Fevola for taking his boots off during a game he was over ruled by the committee.
He didn't stand a chance but he took the fall, and coaches have been taking the fall for our gross mismanagement ever since.
So here we are, a basket case.
Yep, the rot set in in 1995.  Parko experimented with player empowerment and it worked well.  But that was an unusual team as it had a large core of elite veterans who were hungry for a flag.  Parko's solution should have been seen as an ad hoc measure which should have been mothballed soon after we won the flag.  Instead, it has become a birthright of any Carlton player no matter how lacklustre or irresponsible he might be.

It's mind boggling that we have a club whose DNA includes the fact that players regularly go on strike when the coach gives them directions they don't like.  They talk the talk about loving the coach - Malthouse and JB most recently - but they don't play for them.  And the coaching merry-go-round continues while the players largely stay out of the firing line. 

We are now where Richmond was in its 20 year drought after its '80 flag.  Like us now, they had a powerful group of senior players who held coaches in contempt.  I still remember seeing the then captain, Wayne Campbell, standing on the outside of the 3Q time huddle with his back to Robert Walls as he was addressing the players. 

I still can't believe that so-called supporters could have been in ecstasy over senior players going to the Board to get Pagan sacked.  When that happened at Essendon, those players were kicked out of the club and a premiership followed.  And to jump for joy when our players tanked against North and Brisbane as if they were only doing the best for the club was moronic.  At some stage, this club has to learn to back coaches against bludging divas.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #125 –
Quote from: Lods on
What you describe is one reaction.
Personally I'd never hang around in a situation where someone didn't value my efforts.

I'd do the 'stick it up your jumper bit', but as far as proving them wrong....I'd do that in another position, preferably one in direct opposition to my former employer.
I suspect there might be one or two of our group who've already moved on, mentally, if not physically.

I've played team sports.

Criticism of one or two efforts is necessary and requisite to letting players know when they have performed poorly and how to fix it.

We however use them as examples of a player being berated daily, weekly, monthly to the point where they are emotionally dead.

Very extreme view.  Likely to be the stuff of fiction.

We are being let down by years of mismanagement.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I have a hard time, blaming any one person at fault for our currently predicament.  You can point the finger at Malthouse, but he has removed the players mentored by our previous coach who were also not exactly the most consistent players on earth.

People like to stick up for Ratten, and I think he did the best he could to work with what we had, but it looks as though the current predicament is the future he nurtured or failed to nurture.

Ill put this down to his inexperience and lack of support by our club, rather than him not quite working, as he was able to achieve some good things during his tenure.

Moving forward, Barker has seen the Malthouse method, and the Ratten method.  He knows the club and the players well, which means he will know better than most which reigns to pull on to get better reactions, as well as what the balance of power is like at the club to enable the requisite.

The last few weeks have proven something though.  Playing on emotion will only get you so far.  We had the emotional pressure release make us competitive again, but unfortunately the baseline has returned of where we usually sit in terms of our competitive ability.  We need to improve more, rely more on the younger players and less on the older players and the usual suspects.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #126 –
From the article linked by PaulP:

Quote
What he learnt, he says, is that "your leadership style should be specific to the situation you find yourself in with the individual and the group".

"That was the great change in my thinking, having been pretty much an autocrat for a long, long time," he said.

"I came to understand that (being an) autocrat works for a younger group that needs direction and wants to know what, how, when and why, but as they mature there is that changing relationship with the leader, to the point where they will take control of their own situation."
That is perfectly consistent with my comments.  Player empowerment may work with highly-motivated veterans but it isn't appropriate if you have young players or lazy older ones.  Parkin notes that a more authoritarian approach is appropriate then. 

In 2002, we finished last and our veterans were mostly on the wane.  That was NOT a time when the players should have still been empowered.  We had a team that was playing dress-ups in the clothes of the 1995 Premiership team and they weren't worthy of being treated in the same way.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #127 –
Players are adults not children. The coaching staff can state in clear terms what they want them to do and why. If the players don't/can't do it they should be assisted in whatever way necessary. If they still persist in not doing it then eventually they get dropped to the seconds until they do, with further assistance.

If they still can't get the message(s) after that they simply get moved on, with the reasons made clear to them.

No need for histrionics or melt downs. We should have a professional enough environment for that to be the basic MO at the club.
Reality always wins in the end.
 

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #128 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
I've played team sports.

Criticism of one or two efforts is necessary and requisite to letting players know when they have performed poorly and how to fix it.

We however use them as examples of a player being berated daily, weekly, monthly to the point where they are emotionally dead.

Very extreme view.  Likely to be the stuff of fiction.


We may be arguing different things.
I totally agree that there are times when you have to point out individuals that have performed poorly....and make an example of them.
But it's not isolated disciplinary incidents that I'm talking about.

Quote
We however use them as examples of a player being berated daily, weekly, monthly to the point where they are emotionally dead.

As a group that's exactly what's happened.
From the start of this season both the club and the coach have said to this playing list ...."You're not good enough as a group."
We're going to get rid of a large percentage of you...in fact we're going to turn the list on it's head.
In player selections they would have  a fair idea where they stand in this pecking order.

The players are hearing, and reading, that they're 'hopeless' on  a daily basis.
It's happened again today.
It'll be all over the footy shows tonight....and it's a line of thinking that the club is probably quite happy to let run because it takes the heat off those outside the playing group.
"Don't worry about results, we're rebuilding"......(means.... "This lot of deadbeats won't be around too much longer.")

Now there's a line of thinking that players should  "suck it up and go out and prove the club wrong by their efforts."
In my mind that's the stuff of fiction because players are individuals and each will respond differently.

It's actually some of those on the fringe that are putting in superior efforts.
They're playing as well as they can but because of skill deficits they're still marked for "demolition."
Many have become fearful of making errors and will hesitate and concentrate solely on their own opponent rather than supporting others.

Now a strong club administration, coaching panel and leadership group can help overcome such problems but we have none of those.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #129 –
Obviously a very disappointing result, we did not expect to win and the team was probably the worst we have fielded all year
 
BUT

Barker has had success in backing the players and getting them to go for it, take the game on and run.
Now I think he thinks he can coach.

What is it with numbers behind the ball.

We had the whole team in their half for most of the night, it did not work it didn't work for Malthouse it doesn't work for us, we don't have anyone who can play the role of the loose, +1 or whatever it is.

The other thing I don't get is why is Yarram constantly isolated in the back pocket playing a negating man on man role?

It is not his go, he is the only person we have who can run and carry and they are trying to turm him into a Johnny O'Connell for the older folk or a Wayne Harmes.

We should have gone out and played man on man Football, beat your opponent, be accountable, attack if you can, not this tempo hold on to it crap that the supposed thinkers of the game talk about.

Barker said we were going to learn from the best and whilst we know the team aren't good enough I think we found out that going forward, nether is he.........................sadly I had some hope.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #130 –
Quote from: Blue4life
Pagan was a realist who knew what it took to succeed and knew that Carlton didn't have it, he delisted 17 players after his first season and only Simon Fletcher, who subsequently played 8 games for Richmond, was picked up by another AFL club.

Fantastic story there mate. Did you make all that up yourself?
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #131 –
Barker showed - to my mind - that's he's not up to it on Friday night.

There was simply no point whatsoever reverting to the kick it backwards/sideways/retain possession at all costs mantra of yester month.

That must have been a coaching instruction?

Funny part is Hawks backiline is not big or quick - fast ball in and d Levi/Hendo/Kreuzer have a chance.....

Was Wood dropped? If so, another farcical decision.

I'd be giving young Foster a game ahead of Henderson. the latter looks and acts pathetically out there - maybe he has decided to move on....

everyone names the tutts, boekhursts etc  - they're not the problem - it's the senior/experienced crew doing jack - Murphy (stats galore but nil effect), Jamo (gone), Everitt (soft), Hendo (gone), Yarran (mentally missing).

If the young blokes see these guys being half assed, why should they bust the gut?

For mine, the biggest mistake in recent years (other than not fighting to keep Betts/Robbo/Jeff G.) was making Murphy Captain.

I'm sure he's a lovely fellow but a Captain he is not imo.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #132 –
Quote from: Lods on
We may be arguing different things.
I totally agree that there are times when you have to point out individuals that have performed poorly....and make an example of them.
But it's not isolated disciplinary incidents that I'm talking about.

As a group that's exactly what's happened.
From the start of this season both the club and the coach have said to this playing list ...."You're not good enough as a group."
We're going to get rid of a large percentage of you...in fact we're going to turn the list on it's head.
In player selections they would have  a fair idea where they stand in this pecking order.

The players are hearing, and reading, that they're 'hopeless' on  a daily basis.
It's happened again today.
It'll be all over the footy shows tonight....and it's a line of thinking that the club is probably quite happy to let run because it takes the heat off those outside the playing group.
"Don't worry about results, we're rebuilding"......(means.... "This lot of deadbeats won't be around too much longer.")

Now there's a line of thinking that players should  "suck it up and go out and prove the club wrong by their efforts."
In my mind that's the stuff of fiction because players are individuals and each will respond differently.

It's actually some of those on the fringe that are putting in superior efforts.
They're playing as well as they can but because of skill deficits they're still marked for "demolition."
Many have become fearful of making errors and will hesitate and concentrate solely on their own opponent rather than supporting others.

Now a strong club administration, coaching panel and leadership group can help overcome such problems but we have none of those.

Hmm

we are and we are not arguing different points here and a mish mash.

The comments made by CEO Trigg and MLG have deflated this group more than anything our coaching or playing group have offered up.

Since then, the club as a whole, have put the queue in the rack from round screwing 2, and given up, costing us real chances at winning games, moreso than any lack of ability.

Destroyed by a lack of belief but not in themselves, but in each other.

Here is the kicker.  We can't even help them.  Our method of making things not functioning currently, function, is to replace it.  Its the only way we know.

We go out and get something else, because anything else is always something better.

Never mind there is always next year.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #133 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
The comments made by CEO Trigg and MLG have deflated this group more than anything our coaching or playing group have offered up.

The coach consistently letting the entire world know the list is no good. Actually identifying individuals and comparing them to opponents and telling the world they come up short. Short changing the players in their development. Running a razor through the list at the end of each year. All good culture building stuff.

The CEO mentions a rebuild and that kills everything?

Further, the guy who took us off the bottom of the ladder is to blame for the work done in taking us back to the bottom in less than 50 games.

Your mind must be a wonderful place.

Re: Round 17 Carlton vs Hawthorn-Post Match

Reply #134 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
The comments made by CEO Trigg and MLG have deflated this group more than anything our coaching or playing group have offered up.

Hahahaha OMG in raptures! Some of your finest work there Thry. I'm tipping you never listened to one of Mick's press conferences ever? Because surely one person could not be that delusional? Then again.....
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!