Carlton Supporters Club

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2016-03-14/thomas-booked-by-mrp

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2016-03-14/thomas-booked-by-mrp

Radio Media stating they think Thomas should appeal and get off because they think he didn't actually make contact with Laidler's head.

Radio Media stating they think Thomas should appeal and get off because they think he didn't actually make contact with Laidler's head.

What a Forking joke the AFL has become. Thomas been offered 1 week!

Have to challenge this one - laidler should have been booked for diving.

Convinced the afl hates us. Seem to cop it hard everytime.

Radio Media stating they think Thomas should appeal and get off because they think he didn't actually make contact with Laidler's head.

He accepted one week

What a Forking joke the AFL has become. Thomas been offered 1 week!

Have to challenge this one - laidler should have been booked for diving.

Convinced the afl hates us. Seem to cop it hard everytime.

BS, it was dumb ass act from a supposed senior player. No he misses a week, congratulations.

BS, it was dumb ass act from a supposed senior player. No he misses a week, congratulations.

A week looks reasonable to me, as far as I could see. it was a fair old elbow right into the moosh

BS, it was dumb ass act from a supposed senior player. No he misses a week, congratulations.

I agree, he deserves a week for stupidity  >:(

A week looks reasonable to me, as far as I could see. it was a fair old elbow right into the moosh

Getting rubbed out in a scratch match...

(https://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltw666q3zK1r2g7mto1_500.jpg)

I guess someone has to carry the torch of being injured or suspended now Waite has gone.

I agree, he deserves a week for stupidity  >:(

And I hope the leadership group tear strips through him for it. Happy for our blokes to show aggression at the footy and the man (legally), thats called playing hard and standing up for ourself. But stupid acts like that by senior players should not be tolerated as we can ill afford the senior blokes not being available (not that Daisy is dishing up much at the moment but...).

And I hope the leadership group tear strips through him for it. Happy for our blokes to show aggression at the footy and the man (legally), thats called playing hard and standing up for ourself. But stupid acts like that by senior players should not be tolerated as we can ill afford the senior blokes not being available (not that Daisy is dishing up much at the moment but...).

As our highest paid player, he should not put a foot wrong. Pardon the pun, but this is really disappointing.

If he's accepted a week it's a bit ordinary.

I haven't seen the video, but radio is saying the video apparently shows no contact with Laidler's head/chin and contact with the chest. Laidler apparently throws his head back staging for a free.

Can anyone confirm, is there public video?

And Sam Mitchell gets SFA!!!

If there was contact it was negligible.

Laidler played out four quarters with no issues.

In other news daisy also copped a knee to the face whilst winning the ball and copped a free kick against for contact below the knees.

It's about time Carlton showed a bit of backbone IMHO.

A week looks reasonable to me, as far as I could see. it was a fair old elbow right into the moosh

x3 ...Dumb from Daisy on the eve of the season and he has been a poor investment....

x3 ...Dumb from Daisy on the eve of the season and he has been a poor investment....

Don't agree. Put aside his form and put aside his pay packet and all the he should know better crap.

Judge him soley on the contact made.

And as there was very little to possibly none I can't understand how the club can accept it.

It was dumb I agree but then again many on here harp on about our players needing to get tougher and make a stand. He does something physical and everyone wants to hang the guy.

Like I said minimal contact. If it was a hawk, Swan or cheat he plays round 1.

If he's accepted a week it's a bit ordinary.

I haven't seen the video, but radio is saying the video apparently shows no contact with Laidler's head/chin and contact with the chest. Laidler apparently throws his head back staging for a free.

Can anyone confirm, is there public video?

I saw video if it, hard to tell if makes contact with the chin or chest.

And Sam Mitchell gets SFA!!!

Yeah but he plays for Hawthorn.  ::)

Two senior players on report for stupid behaviour in a scratch match - pathetic leadership...

Both should be dropped and have their match payments refunded to to club.

Daisy's elbow hit Laidler on the point of the chin.  Laidler wasn't expecting it and it wasn't during play. A week's suspension is fair enough and he should be sanctioned by the club.

Mitchell should have copped a week too.

Haven't seen this incident but Cockatoo's tackle was worse than Gibbs'

Don't agree. Put aside his form and put aside his pay packet and all the he should know better crap.

Judge him soley on the contact made.

And as there was very little to possibly none I can't understand how the club can accept it.

It was dumb I agree but then again many on here harp on about our players needing to get tougher and make a stand. He does something physical and everyone wants to hang the guy.

Like I said minimal contact. If it was a hawk, Swan or cheat he plays round 1.

I thought it was more than minimal contact which I judged at being about one weeks holiday, Lailder wasnt expecting it and it was a cheap shot..not tough...

I saw video if it, hard to tell if makes contact with the chin or chest.

That's what the radio commentary has been reporting.

Interesting the MRP says low impact intentional contact.

Don't agree. Put aside his form and put aside his pay packet and all the he should know better crap.

Judge him soley on the contact made.

And as there was very little to possibly none I can't understand how the club can accept it.

It was dumb I agree but then again many on here harp on about our players needing to get tougher and make a stand. He does something physical and everyone wants to hang the guy.

Like I said minimal contact. If it was a hawk, Swan or cheat he plays round 1.

Still a dumb act. No need for it. Irresponsible given its 50/50 whether he makes contact or not. He wasn't even looking at Laidler! I reckon the leadership group should give him 3 weeks for being a dickhead and jeopardising our chances of beating Richmond.

Yeah but he plays for Hawthorn.  ::)

MRP, reported on radio that Mitchell got off because he made contact with an open palm, but I challenge them to take a hit in the face from my open palm and still claim it's below the force required for a charge. I reckon the heal of your palm smacking into someone's face can be as damaging as just about any other surface, maybe even worse!

I'm not here to debate the stupidity of Daisy, it was stupid. What concerns me is that we accept charges and penalties that other clubs appeal and escape. I suppose it's just another sign of how bad our club's financials are, I suspect we cannot afford to take the risk at losing the bond! But that should not be the grounds on which we make those decisions.

MRP, reported on radio that Mitchell got off because he made contact with an open palm, but I challenge them to take a hit in the face from my open palm and still claim it's below the force required for a charge. I reckon the heal of your palm smacking into someone's face can be as damaging as just about any other surface, maybe even worse!

I'm not here to debate the stupidity of Daisy, it was stupid. What concerns me is that we accept charges and penalties that other clubs appeal and escape. I suppose it's just another sign of how bad our club's financials are, I suspect we cannot afford to take the risk at losing the bond! But that should not be the grounds on which we make those decisions.

The Carlton website says he has until Tuesday to appeal so we haven't copped it on the chin yet. Having watched the video, I don't think he makes contact with Laidler head but I may be wrong.

Blessing in disguise for us (hopefully Byrne gets a run). But unfortunately for him he can't afford to be out of the side as he is not likely to step right back in and won't be tearing it up in the VFL either.

MRP, reported on radio that Mitchell got off because he made contact with an open palm, but I challenge them to take a hit in the face from my open palm and still claim it's below the force required for a charge. I reckon the heal of your palm smacking into someone's face can be as damaging as just about any other surface, maybe even worse!

I'm not here to debate the stupidity of Daisy, it was stupid. What concerns me is that we accept charges and penalties that other clubs appeal and escape. I suppose it's just another sign of how bad our club's financials are, I suspect we cannot afford to take the risk at losing the bond! But that should not be the grounds on which we make those decisions.

25:01 of the 1st qtr, you be the judge. No way he hits him in the head, its chest or throat at best, Laidler milks it the filthy prick. Walkers jumper punches on Laidler were way worse IMO. And the knee to Daisy's head is at around 21:43.
http://www.afl.com.au/livepass/match-replays

The way he's kicking the ball it's better for us if he's out

Mitchell got off... Premiership discount.

doesn't matter, he needs to go back to the reserves and regain some touch and show some willingness to work harder. no special treatment, he already had that when Mick was at the club.

doesn't matter, he needs to go back to the reserves and regain some touch and show some willingness to work harder. no special treatment, he already had that when Mick was at the club.

Again this debate and thread has nothing to do with Daisy's form, it's about the MRP finding.

So you may have missed the point of the recent posts, this could easily be Cripps up on the charge and at the moment our club would not challenge the finding despite the contact being dubious and the staging being obvious.

To me it's another example of our club failing to back up our own players, like last season when Carrazzo came out and publicly lambasted Yarran when he retaliated against Chapman. You can do the discipline stuff internally, and that remains unknown to the public and the media, but when you see a public example of our players being targeted unfairly you have to make a very public stance to defend them or they will surely lose confidence and spirit in the club. It's a morale killer!

We want our players to be comfortable at being uncomfortable, but when they act on this, when they push back after being passive victims for so long we seem to immediately abandon them! It's inconsistent!

Supporters should not complain when our players shirk contests or fail to stand up for each other if under these circumstances they don't feel that the club has their back.

I saw an interview with Laidler the day after the game, and he said 'yeah, I got one on the chin'. 

Looks like the code of silence is dead (or Laidler thinks Thomas had it coming), but it seemed pretty damning compared to the usual non-committal comments most players deliver.

Either way, looks like there is absolutely no love lost between Laidler and CFC.  After the interview, I thought to myself 'maybe it's not all bad that he's not at this club anymore......'

Daisy must be feeling very frustrated with his form and the decline in his powers. No doubt rivals are only too ready to remind him of this and compare it to what he is being paid. Don't know why he was that upset with Laidler but I would bet it was because he said something along those lines. After all Laidler, rather than having a problem with CFC, would have zero time for MM and would see Daisy as his highly paid golden boy who has done nothing for some time now?

I don't understand why folk want the club to contest the MRP's decision  ???

Daisy cops a one week ban if he takes the early plea.  He's not going to get off if we contest the charge and the best outcome is a reduction of the two week penalty to one week.

I'm all for challenging if the MRP gets it wrong but this is the wrong battle to fight.

I don't understand why folk want the club to contest the MRP's decision  ???

Daisy cops a one week ban if he takes the early plea.  He's not going to get off if we contest the charge and the best outcome is a reduction of the two week penalty to one week.

I'm all for challenging if the MRP gets it wrong but this is the wrong battle to fight.

Yep, wrong battle indeed. That hit of Daisy's was one that only Luke Hodge could possibly escape sanction for!  ;)

I might be cynical but maybe they want to challenge the finding ,doesnt he get  get 2 weeks if he loses   

I might be cynical but maybe they want to challenge the finding ,doesnt he get  get 2 weeks if he loses  

Yes he does, but that is not the point if the original finding was possibly wrong.

I wouldn't be pushing this issue except the Harford got on radio and said we should challenge, keep in mind Harford sat on the MRP so he knows what he is talking about.

I don't understand why folk want the club to contest the MRP's decision  ???

Daisy cops a one week ban if he takes the early plea.  He's not going to get off if we contest the charge and the best outcome is a reduction of the two week penalty to one week.

I'm all for challenging if the MRP gets it wrong but this is the wrong battle to fight.

The charge was contact to the head, if they can prove its not to the head and to the chest say (which is what it looked like to me), then I say go for it (ie get him off on a technicality). Its just standing up for ourselves against the AFL, we always get bent over and gladly assume the position. In other words, we may get bent over, we just wont assume the position and provide the vas.

The charge was contact to the head, if they can prove its not to the head and to the chest say (which is what it looked like to me), then I say go for it (ie get him off on a technicality). Its just standing up for ourselves against the AFL, we always get bent over and gladly assume the position. In other words, we may get bent over, we just wont assume the position and provide the vas.

And for the record, I say again it was a stupid act and deserves a week but....

I saw an interview with Laidler the day after the game, and he said 'yeah, I got one on the chin'. 

Of course the prick would say that, he didnt exactly leave the club on good terms. He took a dive and a half from a elbow to the chest from Daisy. That's ok, the Karma bus will sort it out.

The charge was contact to the head, if they can prove its not to the head and to the chest say (which is what it looked like to me), then I say go for it (ie get him off on a technicality). Its just standing up for ourselves against the AFL, we always get bent over and gladly assume the position. In other words, we may get bent over, we just wont assume the position and provide the vas.

Stand up for someone worth standing up for.

 if this was the nfl  daisy would have been sacked by now  "  its only bussiness" .One day the afl and clubs will grow balls and change player contract and status.

Of course the prick would say that, he didnt exactly leave the club on good terms. He took a dive and a half from a elbow to the chest from Daisy. That's ok, the Karma bus will sort it out.

I'd say with regards to Laidler, that has already happened. ;)

Stand up for someone worth standing up for.

Sorry you feel that way but I think if they wear navy blue they are worth standing up for! ;)

Stand up for someone worth standing up for.

Anyone who puts on a navy blue jumper with CFC on the front is worth standing for IMO (despite the fact I think it was a dumb ass act). Its a lesson we can learn from the Scum.

#UNITED

We've taken since Williams pushed that umpire.

The way he's kicking the ball it's better for us if he's out

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We've taken since Williams pushed that umpire.

You never touch an umpire but that sh1tes me to tears that day.

The umpire virtually put himself in the way, from some angles it looked like he actually change direction to step in front of Williams when they are specifically instructed to stay out of the fray and adjudicate from the outside.

Further for the action the penalty was way over the top, two or three weeks maybe at best.

I'd say with regards to Laidler, that has already happened. ;)

Love to know what that wink's about.....

You never touch an umpire but that sh1tes me to tears that day.

The umpire virtually put himself in the way, from some angles it looked like he actually change direction to step in front of Williams when they are specifically instructed to stay out of the fray and adjudicate from the outside.

Further for the action the penalty was way over the top, two or three weeks maybe at best.

Remind yourself - the argy bargy had broken and the players had gone their separate ways up by the time the umpire approached Diesel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYi_zBCVUeA

You have to wonder why he got involved at all?

Anyone who puts on a navy blue jumper with CFC on the front is worth standing for IMO (despite the fact I think it was a dumb ass act). Its a lesson we can learn from the Scum.

#UNITED

I say pick and choose your battles with the AFL. This is a pass.

Love to know what that wink's about.....

Karma bus ie Mick got rid of Laidler, only one of them is still employed.

Remind yourself - the argy bargy had broken and the players had gone their separate ways up by the time the umpire approached Diesel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYi_zBCVUeA

You have to wonder why he got involved at all?

FMD, you know how to sh1te me to tears!

Bolton has defended Daisy in what is a far cry from our pathetic response to Yarran clocking Chapman:

  Carlton coach Brendon Bolton has defended embattled midfielder Dale Thomas, claiming he wants his men to play on the edge.

Thomas will miss Thursday-week's season opener against Richmond, after being handed a one-match suspension by the match review panel for a high elbow on Sydney's Jeremy Laidler.
It's a less than ideal start for Thomas, who has been plagued by injuries and poor form since making his big-money move to the Blues.

While Bolton conceded Thomas would like his time again, he was quick to defend his player.

"We're a footy club who likes to play on the edge," Bolton said.

"However, looking in hindsight and I think Daisy has looked at it, he would have done things differently, no doubt about that."

"It's a really good learning curve for our whole playing group and Daisy appreciated that."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-brendon-bolton-defends-dale-thomas-over-jeremy-laidler-incident-20160316-gnkg51.html#ixzz433Jw3Uul

I like how we've gone fro a team that wouldn't say boo to a goose to one that likes to play on the edge in just six months  :)

Everyone is sick and tired of this club being pushed around and everyone wants a bit more mongrel. Hawks being the model, but even going back to the lions in their threepeat era is the yard stick.

All of those clubs have overstepped the mark and had more than their fair share of 'incidents'. Bolts is right, that is what happens when you play on the edge.

Now, nobody condones getting rubbed out, but Daisys suspension, along with Walkers wrestling fine, is a sign that they at least want to hold their own.

I suspect that a lot of the negatives being thrown around is because of WHO it is, rather than WHAT actually happened.

Everyone is sick and tired of this club being pushed around and everyone wants a bit more mongrel. Hawks being the model, but even going back to the lions in their threepeat era is the yard stick.

All of those clubs have overstepped the mark and had more than their fair share of 'incidents'. Bolts is right, that is what happens when you play on the edge.

Now, nobody condones getting rubbed out, but Daisys suspension, along with Walkers wrestling fine, is a sign that they at least want to hold their own.

I suspect that a lot of the negatives being thrown around is because of WHO it is, rather than WHAT actually happened.

Particularly when the offender is one of our most experienced players and, allegedly, a de facto leader who should have known better than to give a cheap shot and get caught doing it.

I reckon Bolton is p1ssed off with Thomas for copping a suspension but, rather than criticising him publicly (as Carrazzo did to Yarran), he has defended his player and used it as a learning experience for the group.  We like to play on the edge, dish it out, but don't get suspended.

A refreshing change and it won't take long for other teams to give up any idea that we'll go to water when things get physical.

I'll play the new game and say that Laidler probably deserved it but unfortunately Daisy got caught!  ;)

Particularly when the offender is one of our most experienced players and, allegedly, a de facto leader who should have known better than to give a cheap shot and get caught doing it.

I reckon Bolton is p1ssed off with Thomas for copping a suspension but, rather than criticising him publicly (as Carrazzo did to Yarran), he has defended his player and used it as a learning experience for the group.  We like to play on the edge, dish it out, but don't get suspended.

A refreshing change and it won't take long for other teams to give up any idea that we'll go to water when things get physical.

It has been apparent in the play of a lot of our players, especially in neutral situations over the last few weeks. However, we need to get really good at it and hide our thuggery like Hawthorn do. Our guys do not know how and when to show that aggression yet. Hawthorn took a while to 'get it right'. Hopefully, so will we.

Play on the edge??....Daisy needs to concentrate on getting a kick and make it go more than 30m...that was hardly on the edge stuff, a cheap shot to a unsuspecting player who is off the placid variety....I say save it for Goddard, Hodge, Lewis or someone who deserves it...but we all know Daisy aint that dumb to give a cheapie to someone who will clock him straight back with interest..
Daisy the wannabe enforcer we dont need.....Daisy the midfielder with 30 possies a game we do.....keep away from the edge Daisy, you might get hurt and embarrass yourself..

Play on the edge??....Daisy needs to concentrate on getting a kick and make it go more than 30m...that was hardly on the edge stuff, a cheap shot to a unsuspecting player who is off the placid variety....I say save it for Goddard, Hodge, Lewis or someone who deserves it...but we all know Daisy aint that dumb to give a cheapie to someone who will clock him straight back with interest..
Daisy the wannabe enforcer we dont need.....Daisy the midfielder with 30 possies a game we do.....keep away from the edge Daisy, you might get hurt and embarrass yourself..

Yes, Thomas does have some issues with his physique that leaves him looking for scrawnier alternatives. But hopefully 105 kg of Casboult can pound into Hodge or Lewis some day. Interesting to see if they can survive that. :) :)

It has been apparent in the play of a lot of our players, especially in neutral situations over the last few weeks. However, we need to get really good at it and hide our thuggery like Hawthorn do. Our guys do not know how and when to show that aggression yet. Hawthorn took a while to 'get it right'. Hopefully, so will we.

Docherty's spoil that left the Swans player on the deck for couple of minutes and looking over his shoulder for the rest of the game was a good example.

Docherty's spoil that left the Swans player on the deck for couple of minutes and looking over his shoulder for the rest of the game was a good example.

Indeed. Nor was it alone. For our guys:
(a) to walk away (relatively) unscathed
(b) to make opposition players pay a physical price
(c) to see how our guys related to it
are all major positives.

Please sir, can we have some more. :)  

Graham gave his opponent a hip to the orchestra stalls that brought tears to his eyes and kept him out of the game for 5 minutes.  I suspect that one was accidental :)

I suspect that a lot of the negatives being thrown around is because of WHO it is, rather than WHAT actually happened.

Spot on, Laidler took a massive dive.

All this argy bargy we are now doing (and will get better at it) will make the Dawks game a rather physical one.  :)
I reckon BB will have the boys fired up for that one. Here's hoping.

All this argy bargy we are now doing (and will get better at it) will make the Dawks game a rather physical one.  :)
I reckon BB will have the boys fired up for that one. Here's hoping.

BB will be ensuring every game is a physical one, not just the Dawks one. Did you here his comment in "The Journey" when one of the boys had some claret coming out during training? Something like: I like it, a little bit of blood never killed anyone. We saw the smiling, cheerful little man at Hawthorn who grinned and thanked the reporters for coming to his presser. Deep down he is a competitive and ruthless individual who wont give up until his mission is accomplished. And there will be casualties along the way. I like him alot.

All this argy bargy we are now doing (and will get better at it) will make the Dawks game a rather physical one.  :)
I reckon BB will have the boys fired up for that one. Here's hoping.

Bolton could not have found a more accurate or quicker way to make our lot feel "Comfortable at being uncomfortable" than to force them to play physically accountable and intimidating football. For most of the last decade the only people we have been any good at intimidating or bullying have been our own!

So "Unity" and "Become Comfortable at Being Uncomfortable". Watch Clarkson's tactics against us very closely, he will be desperate to pick this apart especially if it looks like being the seeds of long term success! ;)

I suspect that a lot of the negatives being thrown around is because of WHO it is, rather than WHAT actually happened.

I'm not canning the effort, I'm canning the idea of taking it to the AFL and trying to beat it, because Daisy isn't really a key player and he probably got what he deserved.

Bolton could not have found a more accurate or quicker way to make our lot feel "Comfortable at being uncomfortable" than to force them to play physically accountable and intimidating football. For most of the last decade the only people we have been any good at intimidating or bullying have been our own!

So "Unity" and "Become Comfortable at Being Uncomfortable". Watch Clarkson's tactics against us very closely, he will be desperate to pick this apart especially if it looks like being the seeds of long term success! ;)

Hubris is a funny thing.

I think Clarkson will want to try and pick this apart, but on some level he will be pleased that it will be his protege to knock him off if anyone is going to do it.

Hubris is a funny thing.

I think Clarkson will want to try and pick this apart, but on some level he will be pleased that it will be his protege to knock him off if anyone is going to do it.

Isn't Bolton the fifth of Clarkson's protégés currently coaching against him?

I suspect Clarkson doesn't give a fat rat's clacker about our long term prospects and will simply be focused on winning on the day.  He and his players will perhaps be expecting a more physical game from us but they won't be changing the way they go about their footy. 

Isn't Bolton the fifth of Clarkson's protégés currently coaching against him?

I suspect Clarkson doesn't give a fat rat's clacker about our long term prospects and will simply be focused on winning on the day.  He and his players will perhaps be expecting a more physical game from us but they won't be changing the way they go about their footy.

Which is exactly why its full of hubris.

He thinks he is too good to have to knock off his proteges and accordingly will stick to what he does, till everyone out Hawthorns Hawthorn.

Which is exactly why its full of hubris.

He thinks he is too good to have to knock off his proteges and accordingly will stick to what he does, till everyone out Hawthorns Hawthorn.

Without knowing the intricate details I put Bolton in a different category to the others. Bolton was the 2IC, the Lieutenant, the others were foot-soldiers who busied themselves learning from the General.

Without knowing the intricate details I put Bolton in a different category to the others. Bolton was the 2IC, the Lieutenant, the others were foot-soldiers who busied themselves learning from the General.

That's overstating Bolton's role LP.  He was coach of Box Hill Hawks, then forward line coach.  The only difference is that he stood in for Clarkson when he was ill.

That's overstating Bolton's role LP.  He was coach of Box Hill Hawks, then forward line coach.  The only difference is that he stood in for Clarkson when he was ill.

I think the only thing that stopped Bolton being courted earlier was the past players AFL Boys Club. But there have been so many AFL Boys Club failures recently they are now a bit on the nose!

PS; Video up on the club website now, in Emily Angwin's video, really shows the level of Laidler's staging for a free, either that or he has the reflexes of a slug! Two views, one angle shows the double motion from Laidler, the other shows Daisy's elbow is past Laidler's jaw near Laidler's right shoulder/collar bone.

PS; Video up on the club website now, in Emily Angwin's video, really shows the level of Laidler's staging for a free, either that or he has the reflexes of a slug! Two views, one angle shows the double motion from Laidler, the other shows Daisy's elbow is past Laidler's jaw near Laidler's right shoulder/collar bone.

That's exactly how I saw the Laidler 'dive/pose for a free'. Seems Walks let him have it too. You'd think that all opponents of the Swans will be niggling Laidler over his acting. And so they should. Pr1ck.

That's exactly how I saw the Laidler 'dive/pose for a free'. Seems Walks let him have it too. You'd think that all opponents of the Swans will be niggling Laidler over his acting. And so they should. Pr1ck.

Ive been saying this all along, how this contact to the head then?

Wishful thinking guys; the elbow clocks Laidler just below the point of the jaw and a blow like that is almost guaranteed to sit the victim on his butt.

We'd have had biomechanical experts all over it if there was the slightest chance that Thomas didn't hit Laidler's jaw.

Wishful thinking guys; the elbow clocks Laidler just below the point of the jaw and a blow like that is almost guaranteed to sit the victim on his butt.

We'd have had biomechanical experts all over it if there was the slightest chance that Thomas didn't hit Laidler's jaw.

Have you actually seen the video? :o

Have you actually seen the video? :o

I saw Daisy elbow Laidler in the jaw at the game, on the big screen, on the replay, in the news coverage and just watched the same footage again in the Blues News segment - and no, it wasn't new footage as you intimated, just the same two camera angles that we've all seen ad nauseum.

Had your eyes checked lately?  ;)

Believe me, if there was the slightest chance that Thomas missed Laidler's chin and struck him in the chest, I'd be jumping up and down with everybody else.  He did it and he copped a week.  Move on!

Didn't touch him on the chin, Laidler dived.

I'm no longer stressed out about it. Daisy has barely survived Round 1 in our colours. Having him miss won't hurt us (not with his kicking if it is like last week's!), but may help him. He won't have to worry about being eliminated in the first 30 seconds.

I saw Daisy elbow Laidler in the jaw at the game, on the big screen, on the replay, in the news coverage and just watched the same footage again in the Blues News segment - and no, it wasn't new footage as you intimated, just the same two camera angles that we've all seen ad nauseum.

Had your eyes checked lately?  ;)

Believe me, if there was the slightest chance that Thomas missed Laidler's chin and struck him in the chest, I'd be jumping up and down with everybody else.  He did it and he copped a week.  Move on!

Sorry mate, have to disagree with all you say. No way he hit his jaw, Laidler the weak prick dived. My eyes are perfect in case you're wondering. I even had to Collingwood supporters today at work say that was BS.

I'm no longer stressed out about it. Daisy has barely survived Round 1 in our colours. Having him miss won't hurt us (not with his kicking if it is like last week's!), but may help him. He won't have to worry about being eliminated in the first 30 seconds.

This! Him being missing for R1 is no big deal - move on.

I've looked at it virtually frame by frame, the gap between Daisy's upper arm and Laidler's chin never completely closes but I admit the frame rate is low. There is no apparent motion in Laidler's jaw that indicates contact, it even appears that his mouth opens as he throws his head back. The closest he got was Laidler's collarbone and throat.

But it's all academic now as we accepted the penalty.

I've looked at it virtually frame by frame, the gap between Daisy's upper arm and Laidler's chin never completely closes but I admit the frame rate is low. There is no apparent motion in Laidler's jaw that indicates contact, it even appears that his mouth opens as he throws his head back. The closest he got was Laidler's collarbone and throat.

But it's all academic now as we accepted the penalty.

Agree and as Cookie and others have said, no great loss given the form, move on.

I've looked at it virtually frame by frame, the gap between Daisy's upper arm and Laidler's chin never completely closes but I admit the frame rate is low. There is no apparent motion in Laidler's jaw that indicates contact, it even appears that his mouth opens as he throws his head back. The closest he got was Laidler's collarbone and throat.

But it's all academic now as we accepted the penalty.

Perhaps the MRP and Carlton should have examined the footage  ;)

Didn't touch him on the chin, Laidler dived.

I think there was a bit each way and the diving was what fired up Walker. Either that or Walker and Laidler clearly don't like each other.

I saw Daisy elbow Laidler in the jaw at the game, on the big screen, on the replay, in the news coverage and just watched the same footage again in the Blues News segment - and no, it wasn't new footage as you intimated, just the same two camera angles that we've all seen ad nauseum.

Had your eyes checked lately?  ;)

Believe me, if there was the slightest chance that Thomas missed Laidler's chin and struck him in the chest, I'd be jumping up and down with everybody else.  He did it and he copped a week.  Move on!

yep.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/dale-thomas-cant-be-blamed-for-accepting-carltons-35-million-offer-writes-jon-ralph/news-story/85189ed75a35d2dc65d01007f4ebc5cf?nk=a0d213dd9810fbb9966fcd3eb705a2a8-1458240309

DALE Thomas isn’t to blame for the deal that will handicap Carlton’s list management strategy until 2018.

If someone offered you $3.5 million to play football after two ankle surgeries in the previous 10 months, what would you do?

Especially when one surgeon had just told you that same ankle would need a complete reconstruction, keeping you out another year.

Thomas’s determination to jump at Carlton’s four-year offer — with a fifth-year clause — was a no-brainer.

Yet only two years into a deal set to run another three seasons, it is apparent Carlton has been lumped with the modern equivalent of the Mark Mercuri deal.

David King wondered if Thomas’s kicking was AFL standard this week, while Kevin Bartlett pondered if he was in Carlton’s best 22.

Yet a question just as valid was why Carlton were prepared to offer Thomas, 28, such a monster deal when rivals were never going to come close to matching it.

Carlton’s free agency deal for Thomas — at least $700,000 a year, maybe as much as $750,000 — was clearly designed to blow Collingwood out of the water.

Carlton wanted to hand him a deal the Pies would never match under Thomas’s restricted free agency provisions.

And yet a handful of phone calls to the right sources would have unearthed the reality — that the Pies couldn’t wait to move Thomas on.


Dale Thomas during the Blues’ NAB Challenge clash against Sydney. Picture: Getty Images
It is understood he was offered a three-year deal at Collingwood worth $450,000-$460,000 a season with various triggers for playing games.

In other words, $1.35m in cash compared with $3.5m from the Blues.

The Pies knew his ankle was dodgy, they had already made the decision to turn over the 2012 premiership list and they didn’t love the constant reports of Daisy on the social circuit.

Collingwood has privately wondered at times why Carlton’s deal remained so high when Thomas’s future was so uncertain.

We learnt last year the Blues were aware for the whole of 2013 that Eddie Betts would leave for Adelaide, so had they offered Thomas those terms many months before he arrived?

Even a $700,000-a-year deal for three years would have got him to Carlton, yet given it flexibility to cut his wage by the end of this year.

If someone offered you $3.5 million to play football after two ankle surgeries in the previous 10 months, what would you do?

The story would be stunningly one-sided if Collingwood had used that No.11 compensation draft pick to recruit a megastar, but AFL trading is never that simple.

It used that pick to trade for Sydney’s Jesse White, giving up 11, 31 and 49 to get back pick six (Matt Scharenberg), then used its first-round pick on Nathan Freeman.

Scharenberg is out with another knee reconstruction, his tally of AFL games matching his four surgeries at the club so far.

Freeman left for St Kilda with his own hamstring issues and was effectively traded for Brisbane’s James Aish.

What is certain is the decision to let Thomas go saved the salary cap space to recruit Greater Western Sydney star Adam Treloar.

Thomas was always going to battle after his ankle injuries in 2014 and was dead stiff to last 40 seconds in the first game of 2015, when his shoulder popped.

He would go on to contribute only 70 possessions for the year in five games.

Now he will sit out Round 1, suspended after elbowing Jeremy Laidler in the jaw, perhaps because of frustration at Friday’s poor showing.

Rock-bottom may have come Friday night, when he nearly missed his foot with a handful of drop punts.

The only way is up for Carlton’s $3 million man.

Geez it's not so long ago our club was spiralling out of control. Mick and Swan, the gifts that keep on giving.....for at least Daisy anyway.

$3.5 million now wowee!!!

$3.5 million now wowee!!!

$Daisy go up with every grubber kick, a month from now Anderson will have him as the league highest paid player! ;)

Anderson doesn't even rationalise how we were able to sign a whole bunch of 2 or 3 year players in trade week, re-sign some senior players, all while still paying Daisy so much! That's because Mr Anderson is a goose!

$3.5 million now wowee!!!

Yeah that's overstated because the fifth year is our option is it not? Someone please tell me it's our option.

@LP

When blokes like Judd retire you can pretty much guarantee a large portion of salary cap space will be freed up.

Our option but if he comes good next year we have no alternative but to bay him 700k to go around again

Our option but if he comes good next year we have no alternative but to bay him 700k to go around again

I firmly believe that Daisy would have to make a pretty spectacular comeback for us to keep him a moment longer than we have to. He's a constant reminder of an era we are striving to put behind us and BB and SOS will be ruthless.

I reckon there is some dodgy mathematics being applied with regards to these contracts.

I think people are looking at the years of contract combined with a figure we might have paid in one particular year (where front loading may have been performed) and multiplying by 5 to end up with a result that gives them ammunition to sling mud at our club.

Daisy is rumoured to have been on anywhere between 600k and 750 a season.

That doesnt mean he will get that money every season, but it might have been a figure he was on at this point.  When you consider he was a restricted free agent, and Collingwood were only offering 450k a year plus bonuses (using this article as a relevant point) why would we indeed have gone double?

The answer is most likely that we havent.  I believe his actual contract would be closer to 600k a year (still too much for what we have gotten/getting) and that there is a bit of creative accounting being used everywhere to simply pot the club like people are used to doing.

Front loading may have put him on a big packet in one season, but that would have had as much to do with us having cap wiggle room as anything else.  We had Fev on 750k odd a few years ago, and we lured Judd at that time on a similar number, the cap space has increased quite signficantly since then, and we have no where near the salaries now that we did then.  We must have heaps of room.  We may have our biggest contracts being paid out as we speak leaving us signficant room available to play with moving forward which is all Im genuinly concerned about.

Its possible that Daisy's 5th year might only cost us a few of hundred thousand as we have paid him the rest of his money already.  We probably wont find out for sure but no doubt some will use this as ammunition against our footy club as there are certain media types that are constantly having a go at our footy club.  They are effectively kicking us whilst we are down, and Daisy is an easy target because the footy he is producing is putrid, and he is on a high price even for a good ordinary footballer.

That doesnt mean he will get that money every season, but it might have been a figure he was on at this point.  When you consider he was a restricted free agent, and Collingwood were only offering 450k a year plus bonuses (using this article as a relevant point) why would we indeed have gone double?

The answer to that is quite simple, he is Mick and Swann's son and Swanny wanted to complete the quinella re looking after his favourite people.

I reckon there is some dodgy mathematics being applied with regards to these contracts.

The numbers are completely made up by scribes in the media then exaggerated year by year with people with agendas. I mentioned about 12 months ago he will be on a million a season by the time his contract is finished, not far off now.

The numbers are completely made up by scribes in the media then exaggerated year by year with people with agendas. I mentioned about 12 months ago he will be on a million a season by the time his contract is finished, not far off now.

Nah I think the figures of 700-750k have been there from the start. People with agendas have tried to discredit those figures by throwing up 600k etc with little to no basis for their opinion.

Nah I think the figures of 700-750k have been there from the start.

They're made up just like these figures.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-07/carlton-lodges-dale-thomas-paperwork-with-afl/5002596

There made up just like these figures.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-07/carlton-lodges-dale-thomas-paperwork-with-afl/5002596

So only the figures that support your opinion are spot on? lol

So only the figures that support your opinion are spot on? lol

They're made up just like these figures.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-07/carlton-lodges-dale-thomas-paperwork-with-afl/5002596

So none of the figures are right? He's on nothing. ;D

The answer to that is quite simple, he is Mick and Swann's son and Swanny wanted to complete the quinella re looking after his favourite people.

maybe Carrots, but if its true, then our club was in dire straights and had no hope of pulling out of that mess with any credibility.

I don't know an organisation that is run by a CEO in isolation without input from many people which indicates we had multiple points of failure regarding all those poor decisions made.


In any case we have put it behind us, and no matter how bad these decisions were:

1.  We have moved on.
2.  It wont be a millstone that plagues us for more than a couple of years.
3.  We shouldnt lose any young talent on the back of not having cap room as we frankly have SFA players left worth paying big dollars to anyway.
4.  Regardess of what has happened, our future is looking up with SOS driving our policies in similar fashion to last year.

last but most importantly:

5.  As abysmal as our decision making has proven to be, nothing has/or ever will hurt us as much as the decisions that the Collins administration made on the back of the poor decisions made by Elliott which has brought our club to the position its in today.  We may have navagated out of our current mess much earlier with some better administration, but nothing compares to what happend back in 2004.  The decision to cut ties with Brittain was just one poor decision in a long line of other poor decisions, but the breaches and penalties have rendered us a basket case beyond anything else we have or ever will experience ever again.

The reported Daisy contract figures are more rubbery than the reported Betts contract figures.

One day the AFL media claim we lose players for paying them nothing, the next day the same spud reporters claim we recruit players by paying them overs.

They are into us because they are used to getting a reaction out of our club! Most of what they write is dead set rubbish! ;)

Daisy's reported wage has gone up 40% since he joined the club, it must be performance bonuses! :D

They write stories like real-estate agents report prices! :o

If Daisy was on 200k he would still not be earning his money so I'm not sure why anyone here feels the need to inflate the figure? There is no need to.

If Daisy was on 200k he would still not be earning his money so I'm not sure why anyone here feels the need to inflate the figure? There is no need to.

In fairness to many posters on here, they are just believing what Anderson Ralph wrote, that was their first mistake! ;)

In fairness to many posters on here, they are just believing what Anderson wrote, that was their first mistake! ;)

Who is Anderson?

It doesn't really matter whether Daisy is on $600,000 or $750,000 per season.  Reasonable due diligence would have revealed that $500,000 was more than enough and, more importantly, he would never get close to his best form.

Interestingly, his lack of leadership is revealed as one of the reasons Collingwood was keen to move him on.

It really was a poor, indeed inexplicable decision.

Acquiring Dale Thomas was a stupid move and especially at that price, it is beyond belief that the hierarchy let it happen - or endorsed it!

Never again under SOS and BB!

Would love this to be Thomas and Jones last year sop we can just pay them out and free up a couple of extra spots on the list - or maybe down grade Jones to the rookie list for his final year next year if we can't afford to cut ties with him.

Thomas's contacts is hurting us and will continue until he goes.

Who is Anderson?

It doesn't really matter whether Daisy is on $600,000 or $750,000 per season.  Reasonable due diligence would have revealed that $500,000 was more than enough and, more importantly, he would never get close to his best form.

Interestingly, his lack of leadership is revealed as one of the reasons Collingwood was keen to move him on.

It really was a poor, indeed inexplicable decision.

My bad, it was Jon Ralph writing the article not Jon Anderson.

Easy to claim due diligence in hindsight, hard to see how people establishing player values after the fact would translate the knowledge they gained into a prediction. Any such statements are really rubbish unless they can travel time.

Cannot take much notice of Collingwood's statements, they are all after the fact and they have a vested interest in bashing Carlton, but at the time they were ultra-bitter about Daisy's departure.

maybe Carrots, but if its true, then our club was in dire straights and had no hope of pulling out of that mess with any credibility.

I don't know an organisation that is run by a CEO in isolation without input from many people which indicates we had multiple points of failure regarding all those poor decisions made.


In any case we have put it behind us, and no matter how bad these decisions were:

1.  We have moved on.
2.  It wont be a millstone that plagues us for more than a couple of years.
3.  We shouldnt lose any young talent on the back of not having cap room as we frankly have SFA players left worth paying big dollars to anyway.
4.  Regardess of what has happened, our future is looking up with SOS driving our policies in similar fashion to last year.

last but most importantly:

5.  As abysmal as our decision making has proven to be, nothing has/or ever will hurt us as much as the decisions that the Collins administration made on the back of the poor decisions made by Elliott which has brought our club to the position its in today.  We may have navagated out of our current mess much earlier with some better administration, but nothing compares to what happend back in 2004.  The decision to cut ties with Brittain was just one poor decision in a long line of other poor decisions, but the breaches and penalties have rendered us a basket case beyond anything else we have or ever will experience ever again.

Mate I beg to differ. We had already recovered from that under Ratts, the decision to sack him and appoint Mick, or moreover (IMO) the move to get Swann over from Collingwood, was the beginning of the end.

My bad, it was Jon Ralph writing the article not Jon Anderson.

Easy to claim due diligence in hindsight, hard to see how people establishing player values after the fact would translate the knowledge they gained into a prediction. Any such statements are really rubbish unless they can travel time.

Cannot take much notice of Collingwood's statements, they are all after the fact and they have a vested interest in bashing Carlton, but at the time they were ultra-bitter about Daisy's departure.

No, they wanted him gone.  My outlaws have Collingwood connections and they were rapt with him going and us paying overs  >:(

Mate I beg to differ. We had already recovered from that under Ratts, the decision to sack him and appoint Mick, or moreover (IMO) the move to get Swann over from Collingwood, was the beginning of the end.

Swann was hired in March 2007.

No, they wanted him gone.  My outlaws have Collingwood connections and they were rapt with him going and us paying overs  >:(

It's like us saying we were glad Betts was leaving at the time, hardly a convincing argument after the fact and such statements usually arise out of bitterness.

"Daisy was the face of Collingwood" for much of his time over there, he was their poster boy despite his run of injuries. The day after he left he was all but accused of being the munitions supplier to Alan Didak and Christopher Wayne Hudson! ;)

Your assertion must be true, because Collingwood fans are never bitter at all! ::)

Easy to claim due diligence in hindsight, hard to see how people establishing player values after the fact would translate the knowledge they gained into a prediction. Any such statements are really rubbish unless they can travel time.

We should have taken medical advice ahead of some schmuck's belief that he has the heart to work through the injury.

There's no point defending it, the only question is how McKay has survived it.

Swann was hired in March 2007.

Like I said, the beginning of the end.

We should have taken medical advice ahead of some schmuck's belief that he has the heart to work through the injury.

There's no point defending it, the only question is how McKay has survived it.

You assume we didn't and you assume it was only McKay's responsibility.

Which is likely to be as accurate as the assumption that the club sacked Fev. ;)

Mate I beg to differ. We had already recovered from that under Ratts, the decision to sack him and appoint Mick, or moreover (IMO) the move to get Swann over from Collingwood, was the beginning of the end.

Differ all you like.  Sticks pause regarding Rattens future if Malthouse wasnt available spoke volumes about the footy club.  The decision was not made in isolation to Swann.


At the end of the day we have moved on.  Forget these fossils, they are in the past, and thats where they are staying.

It's like us saying we were glad Betts was leaving at the time, hardly a convincing argument after the fact and such statements usually arise out of bitterness.

"Daisy was the face of Collingwood" for much of his time over there, he was their poster boy despite his run of injuries. The day after he left he was all but accused of being the munitions supplier to Alan Didak and Christopher Wayne Hudson! ;)

Your assertion must be true, because Collingwood fans are never bitter at all! ::)

It was before the fact; they were gloating in the lead up and rapturous when it happened  :(

You assume we didn't and you assume it was only McKay's responsibility.

Which is likely to be as accurate as the assumption that the club sacked Fev. ;)

Do you think we run a lemonade stand or something?

All high value contracts go to the board and they only get to the board with McKay's endorsement. Potentially, Swan took it straight there, circumventing that check (a possibility given his sacking but probably unlikely) which is about McKay's only get out clause.

Most likely is he was "convinced" that the contract should go through by Mick and Swan and for that, he would need to go.

Do you think we run a lemonade stand or something?

You are the one who made the assertion that we didn't take advice in your statement below!

We should have taken medical advice ahead of some schmuck's belief that he has the heart to work through the injury.

There's no point defending it, the only question is how McKay has survived it.

So I appreciate you are ignoring the advice reported at the time that Buttifant had told Malthouse that Daisy was capable of making a full recovery, you write it off as smuck advice, fair enough. But you are making an even greater assumption that independent medical advice about Daisy would have been negative.

You don't know, you are just guessing and throwing darts!

You are the one who made the assertion that we didn't take advice in your statement below!

So I appreciate you are ignoring the advice reported at the time that Buttifant had told Malthouse that Daisy was capable of making a full recovery, you write it off as smuck advice, fair enough. But you are making an even greater assumption that independent medical advice about Daisy would have been negative.

You don't know, you are just guessing and throwing darts!

Dr Baresi advised McKay and MM  not to recruit Daisy after examining him. They did and Baresi resigned.

Dr Baresi advised McKay and MM  not to recruit Daisy after examining him. They did and Baresi resigned.

Whats your source of this information?

Whats your source of this information?

I can't say or my identity may become apparent.

I can't say or my identity may become apparent.

I see, so speculation then.

I'd assert that if the Carlton club doctor resigned because the club staff ignored advice regarding the recruitment of a player, and that ultimately turned bad, it would be all over the media.

Our club leaks like a sieve and there is nothing about this anywhere, but you are telling me two senior staff ignored a Doctor's advice and made a stand-alone decision, the doctor would not even have to say a word and our club would have leaked that like diarrhea! ;)

I see, so speculation then.

I'd assert that if the Carlton club doctor resigned because the club staff ignored advice regarding the recruitment of a player, and that ultimately turned bad, it would be all over the media.

Our club leaks like a sieve and there is nothing about this anywhere, but you are telling me two senior staff ignored a Doctor's advice and made a stand-alone decision, the doctor would not even have to say a word and our club would have leaked that like diarrhea! ;)

Nah cause it was Swann, the teflon CEO, everyone's best mate.

You are the one who made the assertion that we didn't take advice in your statement below!

So I appreciate you are ignoring the advice reported at the time that Buttifant had told Malthouse that Daisy was capable of making a full recovery, you write it off as smuck advice, fair enough. But you are making an even greater assumption that independent medical advice about Daisy would have been negative.

You don't know, you are just guessing and throwing darts!

So you think Buttifant, who is not a medical doctor or a physiotherapist and has a pretty clear conflict in this scenario, should be the authority on injuries?

We should have taken medical advice ahead of some schmuck's belief that he has the heart to work through the injury.

There's no point defending it, the only question is how McKay has survived it.

The same medical advise that said Judd was shot?

You win some, you lose some.

Just like when we recruited judd, we had to pay a hefty price to get him to jump ship. Not many players want to go to the bottom team.

You win some, you lose some.

That's an unacceptable excuse. The facts were there on the table, they were deliberately ignored. It wasn't a calculated risk, it was an abhorrent decision.

That's an unacceptable excuse. The facts were there on the table, they were deliberately ignored. It wasn't a calculated risk, it was an abhorrent decision.

In hindsight, it appears obvious.

Judd could've backfired more though.

Imagine if he was shot. We gave up Kennedy, pick 3 and pick 20 for him.

At least daisy came for free in terms of what we gave up.
....NO....we didn't give up a first round compo pick, we never had it!

In hindsight, it appears obvious.

Judd could've backfired more though.

Imagine if he was shot. We gave up Kennedy, pick 3 and pick 20 for him.

At least daisy came for free in terms of what we gave up.
....NO....we didn't give up a first round compo pick, we never had it!

Daisy was never a Judd. Daisy had not played decent football for 2 years. The two simply do not compare at all. IMO.

Daisy was never a Judd. Daisy had not played decent football for 2 years. The two simply do not compare at all. IMO.

It doesn't compare because it hurts your argument too much.

Use Brock McLean if you want. He was also shot, hadn't played decent football. Gave up pick 11 (12?) for him and he was on 'big' money at the time.

He was a dud, until he got his body right...after 2 years...then was an important part of the midfield - 'fab 4' material!

Beggars can't be choosers.

Daisy was 'taken' with pick 67 essentially. That was the next available pick that we didnt use because we got him as a free agent.

If you prefer we took pick 67 instead of daisy....good luck to you.

I see, so speculation then.

I'd assert that if the Carlton club doctor resigned because the club staff ignored advice regarding the recruitment of a player, and that ultimately turned bad, it would be all over the media.

Our club leaks like a sieve and there is nothing about this anywhere, but you are telling me two senior staff ignored a Doctor's advice and made a stand-alone decision, the doctor would not even have to say a word and our club would have leaked that like diarrhea! ;)

Take it whichever way you like. I know it to be fact.

It doesn't compare because it hurts your argument too much.

Use Brock McLean if you want. He was also shot, hadn't played decent football. Gave up pick 11 (12?) for him and he was on 'big' money at the time.

He was a dud, until he got his body right...after 2 years...then was an important part of the midfield - 'fab 4' material!

Beggars can't be choosers.

Daisy was 'taken' with pick 67 essentially. That was the next available pick that we didnt use because we got him as a free agent.

If you prefer we took pick 67 instead of daisy....good luck to you.

Huh? We gave up a first round pick as compensation for Betts. Talk about not acknowledging something because it hurts your argument. Don't even bother questioning what we would've got for Betts, been proven a million times over. And let's not question the wasted 700k_ per year of our cap. The whole thing has been a terrible error. Only those with an agenda would even bother continuing on with your argument. Just let it go, dud decision made for all the wrong reasons = dud result. EOS.

Take it whichever way you like. I know it to be fact.

Lets examine what we have to accept for that assertion to be true.

We have to accept that officials within the club, many of whom wanted to get rid of Malthouse, knew that Malthouse and McKay went against the opinion of the club doctor to recruit Daisy which ultimately resulted in the club doctor resigning, yet through all the crape storm that was the ultimate demise of Malthouse they never leaked to the media, not once, not even a hint!

Really, I mean we are talking about Carlton officials are we? ???

Huh? We gave up a first round pick as compensation for Betts. Talk about not acknowledging something because it hurts your argument. Don't even bother questioning what we would've got for Betts, been proven a million times over. And let's not question the wasted 700k_ per year of our cap. The whole thing has been a terrible error. Only those with an agenda would even bother continuing on with your argument. Just let it go, dud decision made for all the wrong reasons = dud result. EOS.

Not acknowledging it, i already covered it. We never had it.

What is to say that if we didn't take daisy we weren't going to taks someone else via free agency?

You ASSUME we were getting a first round compo. You ignore the possibility that we could've got someone else.

Again, hindsight.

How many people were happy with trading Fev? I was, and i was in the minority.
How many people were happy once fev capitulated and we became clear winners in the deal? With the benifit of hindsight, things appear a lot different.

How many people were happy with trading pick 7 away for pick 19, KJ and Whiley? again, i was in the minority.
How many people are happy with Boeky now and how we appear to be clear winners in that deal now? Hindsight.

You cannot get every deal right. Fact.
We didn't get the daisy deal right. Still playing out, but looking like a fact at present.
Was it worth the chance? Yes, and i'd do it all again tomorrow given the chance because the next one might turn out better ala Judd.

How many people were happy with trading Fev? I was, and i was in the minority.
How many people were happy once fev capitulated and we became clear winners in the deal? With the benifit of hindsight, things appear a lot different.

Exactly HOW were we winners in the Fev deal?

He was a dud, until he got his body right...after 2 years...then was an important part of the midfield - 'fab 4' material!

I don't know were that idea comes from but it's repeated often and it's just not true. McLean was ripping it up in the VFL in his 2nd season and could not get a game, he had been written off by the club as being too slow for AFL. Yet in that year Bookmakers had him as 2nd favourite for the J.J. Liston trophy at $7 ahead of winner Valenti $9.

The rest of your post I agree with.

Exactly HOW were we winners in the Fev deal?

1. We didn't have to pay him 2mil+ he was contracted for over the next 3 years.
2. We traded him for Hendo+pick 12 (lucas) - We got more out of Hendo than Fev offered the lions.
3. We traded Hendo for Geelongs pick, which we ontraded for 4 gws boys, plus pick 8 (Which turned into Harry McKay).

End result, we saved 2 mil bucks and now have potentially a 10 year key forward (Harry McKay) as well as Lamb, Plowman, Phillips and Sumner.

So you tell me, how are we NOT winners from the fev deal!

I don't know were that idea comes from but it's repeated often and it's just not true. McLean was ripping it up in the VFL in his 2nd season and could not get a game, he had been written off by the club as being too slow for AFL. Yet in that year Bookmakers had him as 2nd favourite for the J.J. Liston trophy at $7 ahead of winner Valenti $9.

The rest of your post I agree with.

Plenty of gun VFL players who are no good at AFL level.

When he stepped up, he simply wasn't good enough at the time. Didn't have the fitness for AFL level due to the lack of training he'd done over the previous couple of years.

Plenty of gun VFL players who are no good at AFL level.

When he stepped up, he simply wasn't good enough at the time. Didn't have the fitness for AFL level due to the lack of training he'd done over the previous couple of years.

Krudds, in his second season(2011) he played Bullants midfield and average nearly 40 possessions. He was named amongst the best in 13 out of 17 games, and played four other rounds in the AFL. Fitness was not an issue, our clubs perception of him was the big problem. I remember late in 2011 Ratten talking about him when asked by media at a post match press conference, I don't recall the exact words but Ratten inferred they should have trusted McLean's football ability and played him at AFL level sooner.

Krudds, in his second season(2011) he played Bullants midfield and average nearly 40 possessions. He was named amongst the best in 13 out of 17 games, and played four other rounds in the AFL. Fitness was not an issue, our clubs perception of him was the big problem. I remember late in 2011 Ratten talking about him when asked by media at a post match press conference, I don't recall the exact words but Ratten inferred they should have trusted McLean's football ability and played him at AFL level sooner.

In his 4 appearances he couldn't get more than 17 touches.
Shows you the difference between VFL and AFL level. He couldn't do what he was doing in the VFL at AFL level because he wasn't 'AFL fit'.

An unfit AFL footballer is still a fit VFL player.

In any event, the point i was making is that, at the time, McLean didn't have too many people in his corner. I think he was on everyones hit list on who should get the flick at years end.

In hindsight, we can see that he had plenty more to give.
When we got him, he was stuffed. Took 2 years to shake that tag before it pays off.

Will history repeat itself with daisy? Time will tell.

Unfavourable judgments on Daisy are so premature.

Yes, he's been at the club 2 years and has delivered well shy of his price, but, the early finish to last season was something that no-one could have foreseen and should only be seen as basic rotten luck ....and his performance beyond that does not justify harsh and cynical judgment.

Provided his body holds up, this is the year Daisy has the chance to do what he does best and justify his recruiting. I just hope he ignores and totally blocks out the negative Nellies and focusses on just being himself. All the bloke needs is continuity of games and the rest will take care of itself.

Unfavourable judgments on Daisy are so premature.

Yes, he's been at the club 2 years and has delivered well shy of his price, but, the early finish to last season was something that no-one could have foreseen and should only be seen as basic rotten luck ....and his performance beyond that does not justify harsh and cynical judgment.

Provided his body holds up, this is the year Daisy has the chance to do what he does best and justify his recruiting. I just hope he ignores and totally blocks out the negative Nellies and focusses on just being himself. All the bloke needs is continuity of games and the rest will take care of itself.

Didnt do enough homework on Daisy..he was never fit enough to continue his AFL career and Collinwgood knew it but for some reason
we didnt...he still cant kick over a jam jar.
I dont blame the player for taking the easy money..I blame the club for taking him on, overpaying him and not doing their due diligence...

Didnt do enough homework on Daisy..he was never fit enough to continue his AFL career and Collinwgood knew it but for some reason
we didnt...he still cant kick over a jam jar.
I dont blame the player for taking the easy money..I blame the club for taking him on, overpaying him and not doing their due diligence...

When we got him, the Collingwood physio team were sure he was finally about to get his body right again. I don't have many connections in the football world but I can speak with authority on this one. Collingwood obviously had their doubts but it wasn't because of his ankle

My concerns after seeing him play against Syd (I know its only a NAB Challenge game) was his lack of ability to kick the footy, His terrible attempt at a torp after the siren instead of a drop punt, his sideways grubber kick, they were embarrassing TBH. We were told he is supposedly as fit as he has ever been effectively commencing his pre season in July last year. He may be fit but I hope he isn't having jabs in his foot and he cant feel it properly during games ala McGuane in his groin. This would be a massive problem and would spell the end for him. I hope I am wrong, he comes good and we start to get some semblance of a return on our investment, I am starting to doubt it.

1. We didn't have to pay him 2mil+ he was contracted for over the next 3 years.
2. We traded him for Hendo+pick 12 (lucas) - We got more out of Hendo than Fev offered the lions.
3. We traded Hendo for Geelongs pick, which we ontraded for 4 gws boys, plus pick 8 (Which turned into Harry McKay).

End result, we saved 2 mil bucks and now have potentially a 10 year key forward (Harry McKay) as well as Lamb, Plowman, Phillips and Sumner.

So you tell me, how are we NOT winners from the fev deal!

We are yet to get anything at all. He was the best forward in the comp and by some way, his life fell apart when he moved to QLD, wouldn't have happened here.

When we got him, the Collingwood physio team were sure he was finally about to get his body right again. I don't have many connections in the football world but I can speak with authority on this one. Collingwood obviously had their doubts but it wasn't because of his ankle

Well our club doctor said no and we ignored him, so Collingwood must have been trying to trick us.

Really hope he can turn it around, a quality player in heart & desire, wish the body will stand up & he could be our best recruit, but the Swans game wasn't a gr at sign.

Well our club doctor said no and we ignored him, so Collingwood must have been trying to trick us.

Is that a fact PI2C?
Forget my contacts, why, how does that happen?

Is that a fact PI2C?
Forget my contacts, why, how does that happen?

Sorry, not doubting your contacts and the info above is in fact from Jofo claiming to have inside info as well. Hard to know what to believe but also hard to comprehend that he could be so broken and no one would realise.

When we got him, the Collingwood physio team were sure he was finally about to get his body right again. I don't have many connections in the football world but I can speak with authority on this one. Collingwood obviously had their doubts but it wasn't because of his ankle

That is exactly what I have heard, they were not happy that after two years of hard work he looked like he would get back on the track at another club. Do your contacts know anything about an alleged Barney Rubble that occurred at the Lexus Center around that time. It's alleged a confrontation about Daisy's departure resulted in a locker door being ripped off it hinges and the contents of the locker being tossed out onto the bitumen at the rear entrance. Very mature behaviour! ;)

It would be very sad if the club had been negligent in there medical reports on Daisey , but there does seem to be something amiss here. Even last year his kicking was ok not distance wise , but in general

That is exactly what I have heard, they were not happy that after two years of hard work he looked like he would get back on the track at another club. Do your contacts know anything about an alleged Barney Rubble that occurred at the Lexus Center around that time. It's alleged a confrontation about Daisy's departure resulted in a locker door being ripped off it hinges and the contents of the locker being tossed out onto the bitumen at the rear entrance. Very mature behaviour! ;)

Unfortunately not, I would have liked to see that!
I was only told of the disappointment of the medical team after they finally thought they were on track. I am sure the team is well and truly over their disappointed now though.

Sorry, not doubting your contacts and the info above is in fact from Jofo claiming to have inside info as well. Hard to know what to believe but also hard to comprehend that he could be so broken and no one would realise.

No need to apologise, there is potential for both info to be accurate. In any case, if jofo's info is correct, then we deserve everything we get. You can't just dismiss your own med teams advice and still offer lucrative contracts.

Given its a medical team offering advice,  it's possible that they didn't agree on the outcomes.

Given its a medical team offering advice,  it's possible that they didn't agree on the outcomes.

Yes, and there are a lot of people who are non-committal and hand out vague assessments only to claim the high ground in hindsight, Doctors are not excluded.

But the real doubt is that we know the board was divided on Malthouse, split vote to get rid of Ratten, yet we would have to accept those who were unhappy did not leak the fact that Daisy was recruited against the club doctors medical advice. It's just very difficult to accept that was the case given our history of club leaks!

Yes, and there are a lot of people who are non-committal and hand out vague assessments only to claim the high ground in hindsight, Doctors are not excluded.

But the real doubt is that we know the board was divided on Malthouse, split vote to get rid of Ratten, yet we would have to accept those who were unhappy did not leak the fact that Daisy was recruited against the club doctors medical advice. It's just very difficult to accept that was the case given our history of club leaks!

Not if the bloke who was leaking the info was the bloke who got Daisy over.

Not if the bloke who was leaking the info was the bloke who got Daisy over.

The removal of Ratten was a split vote from the biggest board in the AFL, it wasn't a single voter and I'd assert not a single source of leaks.

The removal of Ratten was a split vote from the biggest board in the AFL, it wasn't a single voter and I'd assert not a single source of leaks.

You can't really draw any conclusion from that though.

You can't really draw any conclusion from that though.

True, but our club does have that leaky history.

Does anyone really think that adding Daisy to our list, paying him around $700,000 per season and giving him a four year contract with an option for a fifth year was a good decision?

Spin it any way you like but it really was one of the two most inexplicable decisions our club has made in the last decade.

I was hoping to see a rejuvenated Daisy this season - and I don't doubt his efforts - but I'm afraid his body just isn't capable of performing at AFL level.

Does anyone really think that adding Daisy to our list, paying him around $700,000 per season and giving him a four year contract with an option for a fifth year was a good decision?

Spin it any way you like but it really was one of the two most inexplicable decisions our club has made in the last decade.

I was hoping to see a rejuvenated Daisy this season - and I don't doubt his efforts - but I'm afraid his body just isn't capable of performing at AFL level.

Your taken the media bait again DJC, who with any authority said he gets $700K, where was that amount first reported?

When he first signed it was touted as a contract worth "up to $2.5M", I am assuming the "up to" part includes the option year.

At the time that was said to have put Daisy's wage in-line with Murphy's who was reported as being on about $550K when he re-signed.

Now with every toe stubbing kick the media keep pumping up Daisy's value, in what appears to be either a case of severe one-upmanship or out of desperation to pull a headline. If he fluffs a handball he could be the newest AFL millionaire before seasons end! :D  Just a week ago Malph Ralph reported he was on at least $3.5M for the same deal, and "as much as $750K" was reported. So according to the media we have to accept that he is paid 50% more than our captain, or twice what Kreuzer is paid and double what we allegedly refused to pay Betts. It's bogus reporting! :o

It's designed to tug at your Carlton heart strings and collect ratings and web hits, and you've bitten! ;)

Does anyone really think that adding Daisy to our list, paying him around $700,000 per season and giving him a four year contract with an option for a fifth year was a good decision?

I repeat this question.

I repeat this question.

Does anyone think letting Betts go for $300k was a good idea? That question is just as relevant, just as accurate, because it is the inaccuracy of the dollar figure and the reference to an alleged deliberate action that frames the argument!

In the Yarran 7kg Overweight thread you made this comment, highlighting the importance of context at the time Yarran was dropped.

You talk like that was a huge moment......Yarran was yet to be a regular so it was no surprise he was dropped.

You have to be consistent, you have to judge the Daisy decision in context and with relevant figures or you relegate your argument to emotional irrelevance.

Your taken the media bait again DJC, who with any authority said he gets $700K, where was that amount first reported?

When he first signed it was touted as a contract worth "up to $2.5M", I am assuming the "up to" part includes the option year.

At the time that was said to have put Daisy's wage in-line with Murphy's who was reported as being on about $550K when he re-signed.

Now with every toe stubbing kick the media keep pumping up Daisy's value, in what appears to be either a case of severe one-upmanship or out of desperation to pull a headline. If he fluffs a handball he could be the newest AFL millionaire before seasons end! :D  Just a week ago Malph Ralph reported he was on at least $3.5M for the same deal, and "as much as $750K" was reported. So according to the media we have to accept that he is paid 50% more than our captain, or twice what Kreuzer is paid and double what we allegedly refused to pay Betts. It's bogus reporting! :o

It's designed to tug at your Carlton heart strings and collect ratings and web hits, and you've bitten! ;)

I reckon Robert Walls has a pretty good handle on how much Thomas is being paid and I accept his assertion that Thomas is our highest paid player on at least $700K.

Even if he was on $450K for four years with an option for a fifth year, it would still rate as on of our worst list management decisions.

I reckon Robert Walls has a pretty good handle on how much Thomas is being paid and I accept his assertion that Thomas is our highest paid player on at least $700K.

Even if he was on $450K for four years with an option for a fifth year, it would still rate as on of our worst list management decisions.

I agree about the decision making in hindsight, but we have to put the cost in relative perspective of how, when and why we recruited a Daisy type player.

At the time one of the biggest gripes people had about our list was on field leadership and introverted personalities. We had way to many introverts which allowed our team to be bullied on field. Communication was seen as another weakness, I think it was either Jonathon Brown or Cameron Ling who commented that playing against Carlton was like playing against Church mice, they made no sounds out there on the ground.

Daisy was certainly an extrovert, and a very loud on field communicator, which stood out immediately on his arrival. In that respect if we look at a realistic wage figure for him it seems not such a bad gamble at the time, especially given alleged reports coming from medical staff back then were that he should be able to make a full recovery.

I agree about the decision making in hindsight, but we have to put the cost in relative perspective of how, when and why we recruited a Daisy type player.

At the time one of the biggest gripes people had about our list was on field leadership and introverted personalities. We had way to many introverts which allowed our team to be bullied on field. Communication was seen as another weakness, I think it was either Jonathon Brown or Cameron Ling who commented that playing against Carlton was like laying against Church mice, they made no sounds out there on the ground.

Daisy was certainly an extrovert, and a very loud on field communicator, which stood out immediately on his arrival. In that respect if we look at a realistic wage figure for him it seems not such a bad gamble at the time, especially given alleged reports coming from medical staff back then were that he should be able to make a full recovery.

Ignoring the alleged reports that he wouldn't make a full recovery?

I reckon Robert Walls has a pretty good handle on how much Thomas is being paid and I accept his assertion that Thomas is our highest paid player on at least $700K.

Even if he was on $450K for four years with an option for a fifth year, it would still rate as on of our worst list management decisions.

Is that with or without excess loading on a contract?

Hypothetically speaking its possible that he was right in that particular 12 month period, but if rumours are to be believed, the captain is actually the highest paid player at the club, and not Daisy.  That might not have been true of 2015, but it would have been true of their total contractual amount.

Which means we have been front loading Daisy's contract, which might explain why he is on 700k per year.  We might have given him an entire year of his contract in the last 2.  Given where our list is at, I would expect this to be the case because we dont have that many high earners at the club and the ones we do, would also be on front loaded contracts.

This means that Walls can be right, and LP's point might also be accurate.

I suspect that the dollar values of contract don't necessary coincide with what we pay in wages per season, and we must be due to have a fair chunk of salary cap space available for use in a year or two to put towards a Treloar type player.

This means that Walls can be right, and LP's point might also be accurate.

I suspect that the dollar values of contract don't necessary coincide with what we pay in wages per season, and we must be due to have a fair chunk of salary cap space available for use in a year or two to put towards a Treloar type player.

The reporting of stuff like this is only going to get worse in coming years, especially with the new TPP Banking system. Journos will be able to exaggerate wages in a moment of time and claim some accuracy in the moment!

Ignoring the alleged reports that he wouldn't make a full recovery?

Alleged being the operative word.

The reporting of stuff like this is only going to get worse in coming years, especially with the new TPP Banking system. Journos will be able to exaggerate wages in a moment of time and claim some accuracy in the moment!

Alleged being the operative word.

Also the same word you used. You missed my pun! :P

I agree about the decision making in hindsight, but we have to put the cost in relative perspective of how, when and why we recruited a Daisy type player.

At the time one of the biggest gripes people had about our list was on field leadership and introverted personalities. We had way to many introverts which allowed our team to be bullied on field. Communication was seen as another weakness, I think it was either Jonathon Brown or Cameron Ling who commented that playing against Carlton was like playing against Church mice, they made no sounds out there on the ground.

Daisy was certainly an extrovert, and a very loud on field communicator, which stood out immediately on his arrival. In that respect if we look at a realistic wage figure for him it seems not such a bad gamble at the time, especially given alleged reports coming from medical staff back then were that he should be able to make a full recovery.

That's all well and good but remember that Collingwood was concerned about Daisy's party boy behaviour and its detrimental impact on leadership.  The idea that he was recruited to address a leadership deficiency is speculative if not fanciful.  His alleged on field leadership is a moot point if he can't get on the field.

I suspect that the favourable fitness reports are after the fact and an attempt to justify Daisy's recruitment and over payment.  I'm more inclined to accept that Phil Baressi resigned because his advice was ignored.

That's all well and good but remember that Collingwood was concerned about Daisy's party boy behaviour and its detrimental impact on leadership.  The idea that he was recruited to address a leadership deficiency is speculative if not fanciful.  His alleged on field leadership is a moot point if he can't get on the field.

I suspect that the favourable fitness reports are after the fact and an attempt to justify Daisy's recruitment and over payment.  I'm more inclined to accept that Phil Baressi resigned because his advice was ignored.

Firstly, it was on field issues we wanted addressed, so the off-filed stuff is secondary if not irrelevant. Even then off-field as a trainer Daisy reportedly sets a significant example!

The reports about Daisy's chances of a full recovery were around before the deal was done, they are not retrospective like the Baressi resignation claim. Oddly the bloke many posters decry as being partly to blame is better suited than most to assess all the medical information, McKay.

Firstly, it was on field issues we wanted addressed, so the off-filed stuff is secondary if not irrelevant. Even then off-field as a trainer Daisy reportedly sets a significant example!

The reports about Daisy's chances of a full recovery were around before the deal was done, they are not retrospective like the Baressi resignation claim. Oddly the bloke many posters decry as being partly to blame is better suited than most to assess all the medical information, McKay.

I'm not sure I'd trust a vet to interpret a medical prognosis LP  ;)

That's all well and good but remember that Collingwood was concerned about Daisy's party boy behaviour and its detrimental impact on leadership.  The idea that he was recruited to address a leadership deficiency is speculative if not fanciful.  His alleged on field leadership is a moot point if he can't get on the field.

I suspect that the favourable fitness reports are after the fact and an attempt to justify Daisy's recruitment and over payment.  I'm more inclined to accept that Phil Baressi resigned because his advice was ignored.

I reckon you might have this bit confused.  I don't recall Daisy being linked to the party boy stuff in any way shape or form.

I reckon you might have this bit confused.  I don't recall Daisy being linked to the party boy stuff in any way shape or form.

Your memory must be faulty Thry.  Indeed, one of Wallsy's comments was about Daisy pulling his head in and setting a better example.

Anyway, it's not possible to defend the indefensible and I'm not going to bother to read any more of the lame (sorry about the pun!) justifications for the club recruiting Thomas.  It happened and we're stuck with an overpaid list clogger.  As I've said many times before, I'd love to see him recapture some form but I'm less optimistic of it happening than ever before.

Anyway, it's not possible to defend the indefensible and I'm not going to bother to read any more of the lame (sorry about the pun!) justifications for the club recruiting Thomas.  It happened and we're stuck with an overpaid list clogger. 

This. I just don't see how anyone in their right mind could argue something different.

I'm not sure I'd trust a vet to interpret a medical prognosis LP  ;)

I'm afraid your prejudiced shows your ignorance.

Vets are trained every bit has heavily as any human doctor, cartilage, muscle, vascular systems, orthopedics and healing are virtually identical across all mammals. Most of those medical treatments, procedures and drugs used on athletes were invented or refined on animals under the guidance of a vet long before a doctor was ever allowed to use them on a person.

It turns out vets are at the cutting edge, it is the doctors who follow! ;)

I'm afraid your prejudiced shows your ignorance.

Vets are trained every bit has heavily as any human doctor, cartilage, muscle, vascular systems, orthopedics and healing are virtually identical across all mammals. Most of those medical treatments, procedures and drugs used on athletes were invented or refined on animals under the guidance of a vet long before a doctor was ever allowed to use them on a person.

It turns out vets are at the cutting edge, it is the doctors who follow! ;)

Sweet, next time I need a diagnosis I'm going to the Vet!! :P

Sweet, next time I need a diagnosis I'm going to the Vet!! :P

Well my recent bout of distemper is just about cleared up now and my nose is cold again!  :)

Sweet, next time I need a diagnosis I'm going to the Vet!! :P

Don't expect it to be cheaper! ;)

Well my recent bout of distemper is just about cleared up now and my nose is cold again!  :)

Have you stopped humping legs though?  :P

Don't expect it to be cheaper! ;)

I have a 15 year old diabetic cat! I'm well aware. ;D

I have a 15 year old diabetic cat! I'm well aware. ;D

There's a cure for that! ;) :-[ :'(

I'm afraid your prejudiced shows your ignorance.

Vets are trained every bit has heavily as any human doctor, cartilage, muscle, vascular systems, orthopedics and healing are virtually identical across all mammals. Most of those medical treatments, procedures and drugs used on athletes were invented or refined on animals under the guidance of a vet long before a doctor was ever allowed to use them on a person.

It turns out vets are at the cutting edge, it is the doctors who follow! ;)

That's quite funny!  My day job involves the identification and analysis of human and animal skeletal remains.  Even though doctors often mistake animal bones for human bones, there really is little similarity.  Next time you have a spare moment, compare the structure of your leg that of a dog, cat, horse, sheep, etc.  Our bipedal gait means that our physiology is very different to other vertebrates.  Most creatures, with the exception of primates and reptiles, walk on their toes while humans walk on their toes, metatarsals and tarsal bones.

Yes, vets have a good general knowledge of vertebrate anatomy and physiology but they don't study human anatomy and physiology. 

Have you stopped humping legs though?  :P

I prefer cushions - they're not as likely to kick.

I repeat this question.

Its been answered.

Risk/reward, i'd do it again.

You win some, you lose some.

If you don't play, you can't win.

That's quite funny!  My day job involves the identification and analysis of human and animal skeletal remains.  Even though doctors often mistake animal bones for human bones, there really is little similarity.  Next time you have a spare moment, compare the structure of your leg that of a dog, cat, horse, sheep, etc.  Our bipedal gait means that our physiology is very different to other vertebrates.  Most creatures, with the exception of primates and reptiles, walk on their toes while humans walk on their toes, metatarsals and tarsal bones.

Yes, vets have a good general knowledge of vertebrate anatomy and physiology but they don't study human anatomy and physiology.

Given your day job you should have exhibited far more respect for the extensive training vets have and their ability to read XRays, scans and echograms. Especially those who specialize and receive their doctorate, they can be as heavily trained as the best general surgeon.

So I gather your belittling McKay as a vet is just cheap points scoring exercise and rather pathetic given what you do!

Given your day job you should have exhibited far more respect for the extensive training vets have and their ability to read XRays, scans and echograms. Especially those who specialize and receive their doctorate, they can be as heavily trained as the best general surgeon.

So I gather your belittling McKay as a vet is just cheap points scoring exercise and rather pathetic given what you do!

Give it up LP!  When have I ever belittled Andy McKay?

Everyone with a skerrick of knowledge of how Carlton was operating knows that Malthouse and Swann sidelined McKay to give Daisy the deal to secure his financial future.

Your spurious argument collapses because vets, despite their extensive training, do not study human anatomy and physiology.  Furthermore, our club should be condemned if they relied on a vet to determine whether a crippled player could be rehabilitated.  That has to be up there with some of the most stupid comments ever posted here.  You've really excelled this time: congratulations!

Give it up LP!  When have I ever belittled Andy McKay?

Everyone with a skerrick of knowledge of how Carlton was operating knows that Malthouse and Swann sidelined McKay to give Daisy the deal to secure his financial future.

Your spurious argument collapses because vets, despite their extensive training, do not study human anatomy and physiology.  Furthermore, our club should be condemned if they relied on a vet to determine whether a crippled player could be rehabilitated.  That has to be up there with some of the most stupid comments ever posted here.  You've really excelled this time: congratulations!

Nobody has made any assumptions about McKay diagnosing Daisy, you are just trying to infer that to colour the debate.

But even after his most basic training McKay is infinitely more qualified than any coach, trainer, recruiter, administrator or taxonomist to listen to the assessment of the experts, form an opinion, make a decision and communicate that to the club.

You are happy to condemn his involvement in the process, yet next to the clubs orthopedic surgeons he was probably equal to or better than any other person in the club to be involved. It's just bizarre you continue your attack, you must really hate McKay!

Your closed minded attitude is the old Carlton, the bad Carlton, the thing that holds us back! Look for some positives in life, I appreciate it must be hard to do when your stuck dealing with the dead all day, but make an effort it will be rewarding!

You either have NFI or an overactive imagination LP, or perhaps both.

I really can't be bothered responding to your ignorant comments so let's just leave it at that.

Your memory must be faulty Thry.  Indeed, one of Wallsy's comments was about Daisy pulling his head in and setting a better example.

Nah, that's retrospective.

He wasn't a party boy with a bad attitude at Collingwood which is what we are talking about here.  That was the rat pack.  Blokes with tattoos shooting with bikies hits and runs and what not.

Walls was talking about Daisy going down media Street and getting out on the field and letting football do the talking.   Hard to do when your injured.  I think you're mixing up your discussion points a little bit.

Anyway, it's not possible to defend the indefensible and I'm not going to bother to read any more of the lame (sorry about the pun!) justifications for the club recruiting Thomas.  It happened and we're stuck with an overpaid list clogger.  As I've said many times before, I'd love to see him recapture some form but I'm less optimistic of it happening than ever before.

Something I've come around to this year.  But that's the point.   This year.

It's impossible to know what you're going to get until you get it, and what you're really frustrated about was a risk that we didn't need to take that didn't work.

retrospective frustration is fine, but you can't project that back to three years ago based on different opinions it's impossible to know what was right or wrong and the truth was somewhere in between. One of them was going to be right, and in time, both could be.

Daisy is/was cooked.  We have seen him play roughly 15 matches coming into his third year.  We will see but ultimately it doesn't matter.  He will do what he will do, it's not going to effect our flag chances.

We'll have to agree to disagree Thry.

I know that Collingwood was concerned with Daisy's nightclubbing and I know that they were concerned that he would never regain full fitness.  For whatever reason, we chose to ignore those issues and give him a long term contract as the club's highest paid player.

It was a poor decision at the time and it hasn't improved with the passage of time.

You either have NFI or an overactive imagination LP, or perhaps both.

I really can't be bothered responding to your ignorant comments so let's just leave it at that.

So again no comments about the skills and training that make McKay's a suitable choice to deal with the technicalities, jargon, pharmacology and therapies relating to injuries, health and fitness as an AFL player. Just an attack on me.

Your bias is transparent, perhaps you'd prefer we replace him with an accountant or librarian!

Until there is some evidence to support your assertions, I'm happy stand by the knowledge that McKay has hard qualifications that cannot be questioned and makes him the ideal person to assess the reports of medical specialists.

I'm not a Doctor or a Vet and have no experience with skeletal science but if you put a football in a players hands and tell him to kick it as far as he can and it goes only 30m
then you have some idea things are not right..
If the coach starts making excuses for the player and gives the impression that said player is still in rehab mode and not to expect too much in his initial season then you know you have a lemon...

So again no comments about the skills and training that make McKay's a suitable choice to deal with the technicalities, jargon, pharmacology and therapies relating to injuries, health and fitness as an AFL player. Just an attack on me.

Your bias is transparent, perhaps you'd prefer we replace him with an accountant or librarian!

Until there is some evidence to support your assertions, I'm happy stand by the knowledge that McKay has hard qualifications that cannot be questioned and makes him the ideal person to assess the reports of medical specialists.

So the guy whose job isn't to assess medical reports and who isn't qualified to do so is the ideal person to make the call? One of the more out there ideas but would nicely explain this mess.

Let's move on ladies....? We can only hope Daisy again becomes something or all of the player he once was....?

Onwards to the game Thursday night.....

So the guy whose job isn't to assess medical reports and who isn't qualified to do so is the ideal person to make the call? One of the more out there ideas but would nicely explain this mess.

You don't seriously think the club doctor runs the joint do you?

So then, who else in our club senior administration has enough of the equivalent training in technical aspects of health and injury to make recommendations to the board based on assessment of the specialist reports.

You don't seriously think the board read those reports do you?

It would be very poor governance for the board not to require some form of involvement and feedback from McKay regarding any player welfare issues. Short of actually having a medical doctor on the board, he is the next best option.

You don't seriously think the club doctor runs the joint do you?

So then, who else in our club senior administration has enough of the equivalent training in technical aspects of health and injury to make recommendations to the board based on assessment of the specialist reports.

You don't seriously think the board read those reports do you?

It would be very poor governance for the board not to require some form of involvement and feedback from McKay regarding any player welfare issues. Short of actually having a medical doctor on the board, he is the next best option.

Not sure what you're arguing. That McKay actively took ownership of the risk that Thomas would never recover and now that it looks like he won't, he shouldn't be held accountable for taking the risk? And all that is fine because he's a vet and vets are better than doctors at assessing medical reports in humans?

Definitely sounds like good governance yo me.

Not sure what you're arguing. That McKay actively took ownership of the risk that Thomas would never recover and now that it looks like he won't, he shouldn't be held accountable for taking the risk? And all that is fine because he's a vet and vets are better than doctors at assessing medical reports in humans?

Definitely sounds like good governance yo me.

Posters are calling for McKay's removal based on the assertions / hearsay that our club was told at the time Daisy could never recover from his ankle problems, and that McKay now has ultimate responsibility for Daisy's recruitment. I'm calling those assertions bullcrap!

Rather than offer evidence to support the hearsay posters try to defend their claims by loading derision on McKay's abilities, based on indirect assertions his training "As a Vet" has no value in assisting him to contribute to a decision based on expert medical reports.

These are old claims, that McKay's veterinary training means nothing, that we were told Daisy could not recover and that it's McKay's fault.

But all three assertions are bogus;

 - There is no evidence other than hearsay that we were told Daisy could not recover.
   (Are Daisy's current problems related to his ankle?)

 - McKay's training does mean he has significant skills to assess a players medical reports.
   (Assuming player / doctor confidentiality has allowed him to actually see them, they must be explicitly released by the player.)

 - McKay is not a loan gun in making such decisions.
   (Who else got a vote in this process and did McKay vote Yah or Nay?)

Question for LP...

What are McKays responsibilities at the club?

Question for LP...

What are McKays responsibilities at the club?

Head of Football, pure and simple, responsibilities of the role vary from club to club!

Head of Football, pure and simple, responsibilities of the role vary from club to club!

Malthouse reported directly to Swann so McKay didn't actually head up the entire football department during Malthouse's tenure.  Malthouse wasn't on the executive but McKay was.  However, it's certainly possible, and highly likely if my informants are correct, that Swann and Malthouse sidelined McKay.

Malthouse reported directly to Swann so McKay didn't actually head up the entire football department during Malthouse's tenure.  Malthouse wasn't on the executive but McKay was.  However, it's certainly possible, and highly likely if my informants are correct, that Swann and Malthouse sidelined McKay.

It's unlikely we will ever know the truth behind what happened during the Malthouse reign.

McKay's title is Head of Football and as I said that means many things at many clubs. For example some are administrative like Noble at the Crows or Kerr at Essendon, while others are recruiting, coaching and development based roles like Balme at Collingwood or Hocking at Geelong. There is no one template that fits all. From what we see McKay talking about most frequently it looks like his role is more performance, medical and welfare based than coaching or development. That sort of fits because Carlton is unique in that it offers rehabilitation, assessment and biometric services to other clubs. If we wanted to find a role analogous to Balme or Hocking I would say Neil Craig fits that bill at the moment.

It's unlikely we will ever know the truth behind what happened during the Malthouse reign.

McKay's title is Head of Football and as I said that means many things at many clubs. For example some are administrative like Noble at the Crows or Kerr at Essendon, while others are recruiting, coaching and development based roles like Balme at Collingwood or Hocking at Geelong. There is no one template that fits all. From what we see McKay talking about most frequently it looks like his role is more performance, medical and welfare based than coaching or development. That sort of fits because Carlton is unique in that it offers rehabilitation, assessment and biometric services to other clubs. If we wanted to find a role analogous to Balme or Hocking I would say Neil Craig fits that bill at the moment.

McKay's role now reflects his title with Bolton and SOS as his direct reports.

McKay's role now reflects his title with Bolton and SOS as his direct reports.

There was a radio interview earlier in the year with SOS in which he described a structure that more likely puts himself, McKay and Bolton all on the same level in terms of planning, football management and recruitment. Craig himself described his role as the person coaches, staff or players can approach when plans or strategies are in conflict. So it appears Craig is on the side acting as an independent arbiter to broker "people" solutions.

In effect we now have the exact opposite of the structure MM had in place, the Autocracy is dead it's now all about systems and structures!

This seems so much more sensible, using the resources fully rather than pigeon-holing individuals to perform at a fraction of their capacity. We know from the MM era that one person cannot successfully battle an army and win more often than they lose, it was MMs biggest failing to think his old autocratic ways could better a panel of opponents.

There was a radio interview earlier in the year with SOS in which he described a structure that more likely puts himself, McKay and Bolton all on the same level in terms of planning, football management and recruitment. Craig himself described his role as the person coaches, staff or players can approach when plans or strategies are in conflict. So it appears Craig is on the side acting as an independent arbiter to broker "people" solutions.

In effect we now have the exact opposite of the structure MM had in place, the Autocracy is dead it's now all about systems and structures!

This seems so much more sensible, using the resources fully rather than pigeon-holing individuals to perform at a fraction of their capacity.

One would hope that we have a more collegiate approach with everyone's contribution valued.  There's an impressive array of talent and experience in our footy department and we can only improve if it's allowed to blossom.

People whose contribution is not valued should not even be in the organisation.

People whose contribution is not valued should not even be in the organisation.

I'd turn that around Cookie; people who don't value the contribution of others shouldn't be in the organisation.

I'd turn that around Cookie; people who don't value the contribution of others shouldn't be in the organisation.

That too. Cuts both ways.  ;)

Sack everyone!!!!  ;D

Head of Football, pure and simple, responsibilities of the role vary from club to club!

Thank you. Although, you should have justy said "i dont know"

Thank you. Although, you should have justy said "i dont know"

But I had to make sure you knew his job, it's not fair to debate you if your out of the loop!

But I had to make sure you knew his job, it's not fair to debate you if your out of the loop!

I didn't ask what his title was. I asked what his responsibilities were.

You couldn't answer it, gave a polticians answer which included lots of words, but zero explanation.

You going to troll through every thread because you 'know a guy' who is infallible?

I didn't ask what his title was. I asked what his responsibilities were.

You couldn't answer it, gave a polticians answer which included lots of words, but zero explanation.

You going to troll through every thread because you 'know a guy' who is infallible?

You are paranoid Kruddler, I posted in response to your reply!

I know know you love to cherry pick data, I'm going to look for the bits of information you conveniently omit from now on!

You are paranoid Kruddler, I posted in response to your reply!

I know know you love to cherry pick data, I'm going to look for the bits of information you conveniently omit from now on!

Cherry pick data? You mean, point out when you say something that is untrue. Then yes. I will call you out on it.

Still haven't heard you explain what RESPONSIBILITIES McKay has got at the club.

This thread has a bit of everything  ;D

I think there's an organisation chart on the website if that helps :)

Under Trigg Mick reported to McKay, not sure about before that.

Under Trigg Mick reported to McKay, not sure about before that.

He reported directly to Swann but wasn't on the executive.  McKay was on the executive.