Enjoy. I'll be on the train coming home....
Congratulations to the boys and coaching staff. Gave flag contenders a real run for their money and a miserly score.
Progress for sure after our last 60pt loss to Crows.
Killed by very questionable decisions in the 3rd IMO.
Just lacked some composure up forward.
Cannot keep giving teams a head start.
#25 needs a run in the 2's to get a bit of confidence
(whats with the jeanie pratt hair do?)
great performance though, especially half a dozen, let down by the usual (one is a sacred cow)
#25 needs a run in the 2's to get a bit of confidence
(whats with the jeanie pratt hair do?)
great performance though, especially half a dozen, let down by the usual (one is a sacred cow)
#25 needs to be in the side.
He offers us more with his relentless pressure than a lot of blokes in the side who fill out their own stat sheets.
A young side that has flat patches during games. 4th time this year we have been in front during the last qtr and lost.
At the other end of the scale we have played the best two sides in the competition. Beaten one by a point and had a huge battle with the other before going down by 12pts after leading during the last qtr. Not that far off. Just a bit more development.
One tackle Murphy made stick in our goal square - and it's not paid >:D
Challenges the most composed sage!!!
Unlucky not to get over the line. If not for q1 ineptitude, we could have taken home the choccies.
So much to take from that game. Crows are a real contender and our young side really took it up to them. Again and again, until the siren rang.
Well done Blues.
Sign Liam Jones NOW.....
BOG for mine. Commentators talking about him being in AA form ^-^
Who'd have thought. Onya Jonesy
#25 needs to be in the side.
He offers us more with his relentless pressure than a lot of blokes in the side who fill out their own stat sheets.
BS. the kid needs to learn how to find the footy..
At present, he's Witches' hat.
Very good effort... just some polish and skill errors... ugh
Kerridge did really well in Ed Curnows absence fe skill errors let him down but overall thought he contested hard.
Sumner and Sheehan - don't think so.
Fisher needs to go down to lower level.
In; Palmer, Byrne and Buckley....
Toss that one on the "Honorable Loss" pile - right between the "But for another key forward" and "Umpires Hate Us" piles.
Our best is good enough, we just have to sustain it longer.
Jones was BOG by a mile....
#25 needs to be in the side.
He offers us more with his relentless pressure than a lot of blokes in the side who fill out their own stat sheets.
I agree. Zac repeatedly put enough pressure on ball carrier to effect the disposal. Did a couple of nice moves through the crowd too. Can't ask for much more of a young skinny kid.
Very good effort... just some polish and skill errors... ugh
Kerridge did really well in Ed Curnows absence fe skill errors let him down but overall thought he contested hard.
Sumner and Sheehan - don't think so.
Fisher needs to go down to lower level.
In; Palmer, Byrne and Buckley....
Don'tjudge blokes after 1 game bck in, it was the more senior types who failed/./
Sides must hate playing us. We may not win often but we gives ides a horrible hard time top side or not.
Our best is good enough, we just have to sustain it longer.
And that is the progress we're all witness to.
Great effort, CFC is on song a year and a half into a rebuild.
Crouch boys hurt us in the last quarter, Crows probably had a few more litres of gas in the tank and we had a few sore players.
Probably needed Rowe or ACOS down back to have that one stronger body at times...Jenkins who I dont rate probably hurt us at times being bigger and stronger than our blokes who played on him..
Jones beat Walker and Eddie was held to two goals so overall we did a good job down back..
Down forward Charlie Curnow was great but didnt get much reward for his efforts...
The way we're going about it this year we'd have be pretty close to filling the bottom end of the 8 next year. It won't take much more improvement.
The way we're going about it this year we'd have be pretty close to filling the bottom end of the 8 next year. It won't take much more improvement.
PA performance aside. I agree.
We beat the flag favorite in a nail biter, and challenge another fave until the last 5/60.
Good to be watching games that we are in a position to win, our improvement is a real positive, Charlie is going to be very good based on Levers reputation
Looking forward to the next two years :)
Crows are average.
I was hoping to be out of this disciplined rebuilding phase to build depth as an A grade key forward and A grade midfielder would do wonders next season. Charlie had a great game - wouldnt call it a break out game but is getting better with every game he plays. Will tear a game apart soon enough. Dont like Sumner and Sheehan - they are a waste of time.
Thought Kruze was awesome today, gave Sam a real contest and come out in front in my opinion
We lack polish but we no longer lack the will to win.
A key forward and another bulldog midfielder with some skills and we'd push the 8 next season, without them we'll harass and annoy the top sides in the home and away but won't be involved in September.
Jones' rebirth is frankly staggering, no one in their wildest dreams would have thought him capable of this sort of football.
Sign Liam Jones NOW.....
If we leave it much longer we won't be able to afford him :( ;D
In relation to comments about Fisher needing to go back to the 2's. I said he deserves to stay in the 1's.
BS. the kid needs to learn how to find the footy..
At present, he's Witches' hat.
Which is an opinion i obviously don't share.
But then...
Don'tjudge blokes after 1 game bck in, it was the more senior types who failed/./
So.....are we supposed to be dropping Fisher or not? He was only back for 1 game after all.
Sign Liam Jones NOW.....
BOG for mine. Commentators talking about him being in AA form ^-^
Who'd have thought. Onya Jonesy
Rubbish.
Don't play him for the rest of the year. Trade him at years end. His value couldn't possible get higher and he surely couldn't play this good for much longer.
Cash in when the price is at max value!!!
First rounder+ at present.
;)
Jones' rebirth is frankly staggering, no one in their wildest dreams would have thought him capable of this sort of football.
an understatement
In relation to comments about Fisher needing to go back to the 2's. I said he deserves to stay in the 1's.
Which is an opinion i obviously don't share.
But then...So.....are we supposed to be dropping Fisher or not? He was only back for 1 game after all.
If Fisher needs to go down a level, then Murphy can lead the way. Our so called captain repeated last week's performance. Trade bait. Get rid of him while he has currency.
If Fisher needs to go down a level, then Murphy can lead the way. Our so called captain repeated last week's performance. Trade bait. Get rid of him while he has currency.
its a scacred cow thing. He can play, no doubt. Our problem is, he plays when he feels like it, rarely when its crunch time lately
A palpable improvement on last week's effort. Halting and turning around the first 19 minute onslaught was excellent (though it shouldn't have happened in the first place). From that moment onward we outscored them by 2 goals.
Feel a great deal more encouraged than at game's conclusion last week. There was a team discipline from around the 19minute mark of the 1st qtr onward that was nothing short of impressive.
Very happy with the CEOs assurances that Gibbs will see out his contract at PP. Great.
Good-bye Sumner. And, sadly, possibly Sheehan.
Well done Sam Kerridge, had something to prove and did. Charlie C is something special.
Murphy had 29 touches, 9 tackles and 5 inside 50's.
I don't think it was his fault we didn't win today. Sure, he may have played better previously, but he was far from our worst out there.
C. Curnow could very well get his rising star nomination after todays performance.
22 touches (18 kicks), 11 marks (4 contested!), 4 inside 50's and a goal.
If Fisher needs to go down a level, then Murphy can lead the way. Our so called captain repeated last week's performance. Trade bait. Get rid of him while he has currency.
I think we saw a glimpse today of why Murph has gone from 'ball whisperer' to 'ball butcherer'. When he wrenched his knee he looked like a man who was resigned to the worst possible outcome - didn't want to put any weight on it but eventually, gradually hobbled to his feet and gingerly played on. I suspect he has that feeling that every sudden turn or twist may be his last. Just a theory, but would definitely sap your confidence.
@Baggers
I'd give Sheehan another week at least, it's a long time since he's played senior footy.
Agree about Charlie Curnow, he's a very impressive youngster with a big future, once he settles fully into the rhythm he'll be awfully hard to match up on.
Murphy had 29 touches, 9 tackles and 5 inside 50's.
I don't think it was his fault we didn't win today. Sure, he may have played better previously, but he was far from our worst out there.
C. Curnow could very well get his rising star nomination after todays performance.
22 touches (18 kicks), 11 marks (4 contested!), 4 inside 50's and a goal.
Murphy has become a whipping boy and I don't really know why. For me has has just started to really become a real leader in the last couple of years, before that he tried to lead in the Chris Judd way. I love Judd, but my understanding is he was a very introverted leader.
I am VERY interested to watch this replay almost exclusively to watch Curnow's game. I thought that last week he was pretty fantastic and if we won would have been a serious rising star nominee contender and after missing today's game his were the first stats I looked up.
Did he game match his stats?
He is starting to get me very excited is young Charlie
Murphy has become a whipping boy and I don't really know why. For me has has just started to really become a real leader in the last couple of years, before that he tried to lead in the Chris Judd way. I love Judd, but my understanding is he was a very introverted leader.
I am VERY interested to watch this replay almost exclusively to watch Curnow's game. I thought that last week he was pretty fantastic and if we won would have been a serious rising star nominee contender and after missing today's game his were the first stats I looked up.
Did he game match his stats?
He is starting to get me very excited is young Charlie
Whilst he made some silly errors, I think he was one of our 4 qtr performers, didnt stop trying and got some real heat attention wise.
@Baggers
I'd give Sheehan another week at least, it's a long time since he's played senior footy.
Agree about Charlie Curnow, he's a very impressive youngster with a big future, once he settles fully into the rhythm he'll be awfully hard to match up on.
I agree and hope he does get another go. I'm a bit biased re Sheehan, love to see him make it but some of his foot passing early on was not so good. Fingers crossed.
I agree and hope he does get another go. I'm a bit biased re Sheehan, love to see him make it but some of his foot passing early on was not so good. Fingers crossed.
First week back after so long out - I thought he was better than some others and worthy of a few more games to find his feet.
Jones' rebirth is frankly staggering, no one in their wildest dreams would have thought him capable of this sort of football.
I thought he could make it at FB and told him so (2 years ago) ;D but I am still surprised at just how impressive he has been. :o
I agree and hope he does get another go. I'm a bit biased re Sheehan, love to see him make it but some of his foot passing early on was not so good. Fingers crossed.
Wasnt so much his foot passing as I can forgive that for being rusty it was that dropped mark where he didnt want the ball or the contact...and it cost a goal.
If you consider Sheehan has hardly played - at all - he wasn't too bad. But I'd rather have Williamson in the team.
First time I have seen Liam Jones live since his resurrection - he was sensational. It's hard to believe.
We could have won today... Adelaide are going to be top 4, and will be hard to beat at home... but geez, they like to run ahead of the ball. Not sure that is going to stand up come finals time.
I thought he could make it at FB and told him so (2 years ago) ;D but I am still surprised at just how impressive he has been. :o
Seriously RR, if you made that call 2 years ago then my estimation of your football nous goes up another notch, and it was already at a high level. You should be offering your services to our football department on a consultancy basis! ;)
Seriously RR, if you made that call 2 years ago then my estimation of your football nous goes up another notch, and it was already at a high level. You should be offering your services to our football department on a consultancy basis! ;)
I think he was...
its a scacred cow thing. He can play, no doubt. Our problem is, he plays when he feels like it, rarely when its crunch time lately
What an absolute pile of crap that is. An opinion of years gone by. Murphy has been consistently in our best 5 and has well surpassed those days when he would pick and choose - if he ever has.
Whilst he made some silly errors, I think he was one of our 4 qtr performers, didnt stop trying and got some real heat attention wise.
Cheers looking forward to watching it despite the loss
Cheers looking forward to watching it despite the loss
...apart from the first qtr?
re: Murphy...Thought he went ok but had a few turnovers....not our best but not our worst either....their mids ran over us a bit in the end but I thought the effort was there from Murphy.
Young Charlie has been steadily improving with every game this year.
Today, he appeared to put it all together (that's his experience of what, 15 games?). He looked like he had confidence in his skills and knowledge of the set up, and his role in particular. I'd commented that earlier on he appeared lost. Well. Charlie has now found his place. I'm really excited to witness his evolution. I think he's going to be a star. As some posters have dubbed him Curnowfides.... May not be far off the mark, all going well.
Congratulations to Charlie ;D
Young Charlie has been steadily improving with every game this year.
Today, he appeared to put it all together (that's his experience of what, 15 games?). He looked like he had confidence in his skills and knowledge of the set up, and his role in particular. I'd commented that earlier on he appeared lost. Well. Charlie has now found his place. I'm really excited to witness his evolution. I think he's going to be a star. As some posters have dubbed him Curnowfides.... May not be far off the mark, all going well.
Congratulations to Charlie ;D
Agree LN...should be close to a rising star award this week, marking was great, just didnt get the reward for his work given our forward is so dysfunctional..
...apart from the first qtr?
Yeah I will suffer though the 1st quarter but not as keen to watch that, but hopefully will see areas Bolton worked on to shore up.
re: Murphy...Thought he went ok but had a few turnovers....not our best but not our worst either....their mids ran over us a bit in the end but I thought the effort was there from Murphy.
Agree with all that, chuck J Kelly in that midfield and we win I reckon.
Agree LN...should be close to a rising star award this week, marking was great, just didnt get the reward for his work given our forward is so dysfunctional..
Our forward line Fischer, Curnow, Silvagni. Possibly one of the youngest and inexperienced going.
It didn't function well today (i.e. i50's to scoring shots ratio), but I suspect there's truck loads of improvement to come. Looking forward to those boys in 2yrs. Perhaps supported by H and/or Kerr...
Exciting times.
Go new Blues
Jones far more important to our line up than Murphy. On present form and output.
Stats be damned, Murphy was entirely ineffectual and indeed, costly thanks to some shocking turnovers....sad to say, Kerridge gave more today...
Fisher, um, love the endeavour but is some ways, a way off the pace. Again, Graham gave more and he's likely to be chopped come season's end....
Gibbs better in H2 and hopefully showed the Crows his worth to them.
Charlie C was very good aside from some nervous disposal once ball was in hand.
Daisy/ Another meh effort, hoping he will retire gracefully.
Our forward line Fischer, Curnow, Silvagni. Possibly one of the youngest and inexperienced going.
It didn't function well today (i.e. i50's to scoring shots ratio), but I suspect there's truck loads of improvement to come. Looking forward to those boys in 2yrs. Perhaps supported by H and/or Kerr...
Exciting times.
Go new Blues
not bout the forward line, it's all about the shocking mindless, dumb bombing into F50 by the mids and HBs.
re: Murphy...Thought he went ok but had a few turnovers....not our best but not our worst either....their mids ran over us a bit in the end but I thought the effort was there from Murphy.
Murphy ran his butt off today. His problem, along with Gibbs and Cripps, is that our second tier midfielders are largely ineffective.
Murphy ran his butt off today. His problem, along with Gibbs and Cripps, is that our second tier midfielders are largely ineffective.
Murphy hasn't been hard at it since that incident with the Saints....
not bout the forward line, it's all about the shocking mindless, dumb bombing into F50 by the mids and HBs.
Agree we bombed it but also didnt have many players presenting....apart from Charlie Curnow who was great, they covered us well and we were too slow moving the ball.
We also got a bit of our own treatment back from Smith and Laird who did what Docherty and Simpson do to teams in terms of running the ball out from the backline.
Both backlines were on top but they probably had the cleaner entries and we gave them a few easy goals..
Agree we bombed it but also didnt have many players presenting....apart from Charlie Curnow who was great, they covered us well and we were too slow moving the ball.
We also got a bit of our own treatment back from Smith and Laird who did what Docherty and Simpson do to teams in terms of running the ball out from the backline.
Both backlines were on top but they probably had the cleaner entries and we gave them a few easy goals..
because in H1 (Q! especially), our ball movement was stupidly way too slow (and they revved that up after Q1)
not bout the forward line, it's all about the shocking mindless, dumb bombing into F50 by the mids and HBs.
To clarify the context of my post. It was in following EB's reference to our dysfunctional fwd line. So yes, it was specific to the fwd line. I do agree though we did not use our i50 chances for whatever reasons.
My EDIT
Some reasons for poor usage i50 well articulated by EB.
Thought Weitering was very ordinary today too. Is he injured or just bereft of confidence?
Jones was the standout of the backline again. Kudos to that bloke!
Murphy ran his butt off today. His problem, along with Gibbs and Cripps, is that our second tier midfielders are largely ineffective.
Thought we ran out of gas....the Crouch boys slaughtered us in the last quarter and had it 20 plus times between them....problem we have is that while our own mids get plenty of ball so do the opposition.
Agree on the 2nd tier mids...Graham got a lot of ball in the back half and Kerridge while good today just doesnt hurt teams when he has the footy....
Credit to Gibbs he was our best player IMO and should be in the AA squad....
Cuners, Fisher barely sighted....i keep hearing about 'pressure acts' in relation to the latter but seriously, I'd prefer disposals....
Thought Kerridge did enough to hold a spot for now....his good comfortably outweighed his bad. If anything he was the one assigned to nullify Sloane....
Cuners, Fisher barely sighted....i keep hearing about 'pressure acts' in relation to the latter but seriously, I'd prefer disposals....
Except if they come from Murphy who had 29.
Seriously, you contradict yourself in the space of an hour (sometimes 5 minutes) on a regular basis.
Murphy isn't/wasn't hard enough at it (not applying enough pressure on/at the ball/opponent) but you prefer disposals over pressure acts.
Go rewatch a game and look at how many times we force the opposition to make an extra handball (or 5) by the amount of pressure we apply on them. Then see how often this pressure leads to a turnover.
Pressure on the kick makes the difference between an easy mark on the lead, or enough of a miskick that a spoil can be effective.
You complain about our team pointing out that our midfield is the biggest problem because they bomb the ball inside 50 too often. Is that because they are under pressure or because our forwards can't get free? Now either its not the midfield that is the problem, or its the pressure that the opposition are putting on them that is forcing the long bombs.
I thought our midfield more than held its own keeping in mind we didn't have our best and most experienced tagger.
Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps were all very good, Cripps' goal from outside 50 was a ripper as were Gibbs' long snap and big pack mark, Murphy was in everything.
Kerridge was surprisingly good, Graham busy and Cunningham and Fisher both show plenty of promise.
Another big bodied mid like Cripps wouldn't go astray.
Our front 6 was where we were beaten today, apart from Charlie Curnow we didn't get consistent output or pressure from our forwards, but that's an ongoing problem without an obvious solution.
Thought Weitering was very ordinary today too. Is he injured or just bereft of confidence?
Jones was the standout of the backline again. Kudos to that bloke!
Weitering improved after half time and gave us a marking target across half back from the kick ins but his normally good disposal has been a bit off.
Lacks a bit of confidence IMO and can look a bit lost in traffic at times when playing on the really big units, has set high standards for himself so maybe we judge him too harshly as he is so mature for a young bloke..
Jones far more important to our line up than Murphy. On present form and output.
Stats be damned, Murphy was entirely ineffectual and indeed, costly thanks to some shocking turnovers....sad to say, Kerridge gave more today...
Fisher, um, love the endeavour but is some ways, a way off the pace. Again, Graham gave more and he's likely to be chopped come season's end....
Gibbs better in H2 and hopefully showed the Crows his worth to them.
Charlie C was very good aside from some nervous disposal once ball was in hand.
Daisy/ Another meh effort, hoping he will retire gracefully.
Bad luck FB, Gibbs will be playing out his contract with us :) ... and he was BoG by a long way.
It's funny how folk watch the same game and see it completely differently. I guess that's footy!
Gibbs was BOG easily.
Thought Weitering was very ordinary today too. Is he injured or just bereft of confidence?
Jones was the standout of the backline again. Kudos to that bloke!
I thought Weitering was great today, one of his best games for the season. Jones was very good but, understandably, makes some rookie mistakes. It's bad luck that we lost Rowe and Silvagni. Either would provide a cool head when required.
I thought Weitering was great today, one of his best games for the season. Jones was very good but, understandably, makes some rookie mistakes. It's bad luck that we lost Rowe and Silvagni. Either would provide a cool head when required.
Agree re: Weitering. Only one mistake I can remember today when he overcooked a pass which was spoiled and might have led to a goal. Always happy when the ball's in his hands - rarely wastes it.
Jones may very well end up our highest Brownlow vote getter. Amazing!
It was a great effort from a relatively inexperienced young side. They will have sustained efforts for periods & then lapses of concentration will let side back in. The desire is there, the execution is coming, but for some costly lapses we let side of the hook at times & until we gain that experience across the board this will continue. But future shaping bright
Bad luck FB, Gibbs will be playing out his contract with us :) ... and he was BoG by a long way.
It's funny how folk watch the same game and see it completely differently. I guess that's footy!
Re Gibbs staying, i've said my piece, I know what I know, I'll say no more.
Well said Robblues. Spot on.
Today was a great learning experience. Our seniors stood up and enabled the youngsters to work through an important process of perseverance (despite a false start in q1).
Agree re: Weitering. Only one mistake I can remember today when he overcooked a pass which was spoiled and might have led to a goal. Always happy when the ball's in his hands - rarely wastes it.
Jones may very well end up our highest Brownlow vote getter. Amazing!
I'm looking at him winning it, 11 x 3=33 votes, easy...haha!
I'm looking at him winning it, 11 x 3=33 votes, easy...haha!
Now that would be a story.....
I repeat. Sign him NOW while he has so much regard for our club ;)
5 pages and no word on Jack Silvagni. Is he a bit of a protected species?? Didn't see the game at all but others seem to be potted before Jack.
5 pages and no word on Jack Silvagni. Is he a bit of a protected species?? Didn't see the game at all but others seem to be potted before Jack.
I thought he was OK, particularly with the defensive pressure he applied in our forward line. He took the game on and kicked a nice goal when many players of his age would have looked to give the ball off. However, I reckon he needs to be more consistent and become more of an offensive threat. We're not going to win many games when our smaller forwards get 5 or 6 touches.
5 pages and no word on Jack Silvagni. Is he a bit of a protected species?? Didn't see the game at all but others seem to be potted before Jack.
Inconsistent but still young - he will come good 22-23 years old. Needs to have a couple of A graders around him which he doesn't - this is why I want Murphy playing as small forward to lead the forward line with Wright. He is hitting the scoreboard which is important and runs his arse off every game . I think he is starting to get tired now but will finish the season around 10 disposal average and some 20 goals. Next year you would want him to target something along the lines of 12 disposal average and 25 goals... then 15 disposal average and 30 goals..... then we will have a player. He has kicked 12 goals this year so far.
5 pages and no word on Jack Silvagni. Is he a bit of a protected species?? Didn't see the game at all but others seem to be potted before Jack.
It's hard to pot a bloke who bleeds navy, gives 100% does what he does well but just needs to get involved more when expectations out of the kid are low.
He is ahead of schedule and would probably do well to have a spell in the vfl but someone needs to be knocking on the door.
Inconsistent but still young - he will come good 22-23 years old. Needs to have a couple of A graders around him which he doesn't -
This puts it in a nutshell.
Silvagni is tracking well, if we were a top side he'd be spending more time in the VFL but we don't have that luxury.
He's got Levi, Sumner and other bit players around him to teach him the craft, along with Charlie Curnow who is on L plates as well, we need to be more patient with him than usual.
Silvagni played his first senior game a year ago this week...
Don't understand the anti-Murphy rants, he was clearly in our best yesterday.
Also Gibbs, Jones, Kreuzer, Curnow, Simpson, Docherty, Kerridge played well. All four quarter players.
I reckon if we had ACoS yesterday we might well have won!
Silvagni played his first senior game a year ago this week...
You get the very rare exception, like Diesel Williams, but most players don't hit their straps until their third season.
Kouta played only 14 games in his first two seasons, averaged 15 touches in his third then 20 in 25 games in his fourth including 31 touches and 8 marks in the winning Grand Final.
Seriously RR, if you made that call 2 years ago then my estimation of your football nous goes up another notch, and it was already at a high level. You should be offering your services to our football department on a consultancy basis! ;)
Been there - tried that
Gibbs will be playing out his contract with us :) ... and he was BoG by a long way.
It's funny how folk watch the same game and see it completely differently. I guess that's footy!
I half agree - Gibbs was clearly BoG in the second half and was as effective as he was against the Suns but I thought his first half was more similar to last week's disappointing effort - decent stats but he went back to his long-term habit of kicking to get rid of the ball - rather than making the extra commitment to kick to a real advantage.
He is elite when he puts his body on the line but ...
You get the very rare exception, like Diesel Williams, but most players don't hit their straps until their third season.
Kouta played only 14 games in his first two seasons, averaged 15 touches in his third then 20 in 25 games in his fourth including 31 touches and 8 marks in the winning Grand Final.
Firstly, Kouta played 30 games in his first two seasons, 8 games in 1993 and 22 in 1994.
Lets make some relevant comparisons, Kouta was Charlie Curnow like in a team that finished 2nd on the ladder in his first two seasons. So without being disrespectful to young Silvagni I think Kouta had far more competition just to win a spot in the team!
I fear for this kid, the expectations on him are massive because of his name, but it means nothing. If his surname was White people would be looking at the very same numbers and claiming he's trade fodder!
Thought Weitering was very ordinary today too. Is he injured or just bereft of confidence?
Jones was the standout of the backline again. Kudos to that bloke!
FB, you're starting to sound like a real Corne, every game we win it's all about how bad the opposition was, and when we lose it's all about how bad we were! No matter what happens, your posts are all about how crap we are!
Firstly, Kouta played 30 games in his first two seasons, 8 games in 1993 and 22 in 1994.
Lets make some relevant comparisons, Kouta was Charlie Curnow like in a team that finished 2nd on the ladder in his first two seasons. So without being disrespectful to young Silvagni I think Kouta had far more competition just to win a spot in the team!
I fear for this kid, the expectations on him are massive because of his name, but it means nothing. If his surname was White people would be looking at the very same numbers and claiming he's trade fodder!
FB, you're starting to sound like a real Corne, every game we win it's all about how bad the opposition was, and we we lose it's all about how bad we were!
B4L is right. Kouta played 14 games in his first two seasons. 6 games in 1992 (debut R13 v Adelaide) and 8 games in 1993.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Anthony_Koutoufides.html
BFL is right. Kouta played 14 games in his first two seasons. 6 games in 1992 (debut R13 v Adelaide) and 8 games in 1993.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Anthony_Koutoufides.html
Thanks Laj, sorry B4L my bad, my Kouta stats links are missing 1992.
Sorry my bad, my Kouta stats links are missing 1992.
No problem!
Kouta did play 1 or 2 years in the reserves before he played AFL didn't he?
Kouta did play 1 or 2 years in the reserves before he played AFL didn't he?
U19's for a few years before that.
Think he was at the club as a 15yo maybe
FB, you're starting to sound like a real Corne, every game we win it's all about how bad the opposition was, and when we lose it's all about how bad we were! No matter what happens, your posts are all about how crap we are!
X2
5 pages and no word on Jack Silvagni. Is he a bit of a protected species?? Didn't see the game at all but others seem to be potted before Jack.
Maybe you should watch the game before making STUPID comments.
For a kid, he goes as hard as anyone. Chases, tackles harasses as good as anyone in our team.
As a fwd, struggles with the poor delivery to him.....as do all our other forwards.
I was worried before we drafted him that he might not turn out to be the player we hoped ,and the Silvagni name may have been ruling our hearts at the expense of our heads
I'm not worried anymore.
I've seen enough.
From memory he was a bottom aged draft pick...correct me if I'm wrong
Jack's still a kid.
A lightly framed kid who in the next couple of years will develop the needed strength.
Importantly he has a football brain and gives a 100% effort.
Surrounded by a couple more talented forwards in a year or two he will be a valuable part of this side.
@ pinot
Inconsistent but still young - he will come good 22-23 years old. Needs to have a couple of A graders around him which he doesn't
Spot on. He's a young kid in a poor forward line.
Time is on his side and on our side 18/12 into a rebuild. Don't think his strongest critics could fault his effort and commitment to developing where/when/how to meet club requirements.
No concerns from me re. Jack at this stage. Has a maturity that belies his years and combines this with youthful exuberance. Is developing well and meeting all reasonable expectations IMO.
One of Jack's strengths is his footy nous.
When his immature body catches up to his mature mind at AFL level, we'll have a clear indication of his worth. Both individually and as part of our team in the coming years.
My guess is that his steely determination to play for Carlton will enable optimal development. If that's good enough relative to his team mates, he'll be part of our next flag (OK, this part is my Carlton dreaming).
Mind matters in elite sport (any performance for that matter). That's where he'll have the edge on his peers. We all have many examples of when "he didn't have the right mindset".
No concerns from me re. Jack at this stage. Has a maturity that belies his years and combines this with youthful exuberance. Is developing well and meeting all reasonable expectations IMO.
He'll be a good player, but the current hype isn't matched by the performances. But that doesn't mean he won't be a 200 gamer.
He'll be a good player, but the current hype isn't matched by the performances. But that doesn't mean he won't be a 200 gamer.
I tend to let hype wash over me tbh, but I will admit to being on the Jones bandwagon atm! ☺
I was worried before we drafted him that he might not turn out to be the player we hoped ,and the Silvagni name may have been ruling our hearts at the expense of our heads
I'm not worried anymore.
I've seen enough.
From memory he was a bottom aged draft pick...correct me if I'm wrong
Jack's still a kid.
A lightly framed kid who in the next couple of years will develop the needed strength.
Importantly he has a football brain and gives a 100% effort.
Surrounded by a couple more talented forwards in a year or two he will be a valuable part of this side.
I think that applies to most of our forwards :)
Jack is a footballer, not an athlete. While he lacks pace, he seems to have time to use the ball well. That was what impressed me about the first time I saw him in the NAB game against Essendon. I was also impressed with his willingness to "fly the flag" when a team mate was unfairly dealt with (same with Charlie Curnow). He will continue to improve as he builds strength and condition and further develops his footy smarts.
How much does Marchbank look like SOS (senior ) when he wears the long sleeves. Some of his movements I need to do a double take.
How much does Marchbank look like SOS (senior ) when he wears the long sleeves. Some of his movements I need to do a double take.
Yes I've thought the very same, like a SOS / Christou hybrid!
Yes I've thought the very same, like a SOS / Christou hybrid!
Just need the 'woof' ;)
I think that applies to most of our forwards :)
Jack is a footballer, not an athlete. While he lacks pace, he seems to have time to use the ball well. That was what impressed me about the first time I saw him in the NAB game against Essendon. I was also impressed with his willingness to "fly the flag" when a team mate was unfairly dealt with (same with Charlie Curnow). He will continue to improve as he builds strength and condition and further develops his footy smarts.
I hope he ends up as a goal kicking mid....and no question, he will get stronger, quicker, fitter and smarter (noting he already seems to have a top notch footy head).
Tough gig given his family name, but he does seem a very likeable, humble lad. Kudos to his folks for that!
Just need the 'woof' ;)
I think it's something to do with the gate, the way they move on from a mark with lateral movement. Williamson has a touch of it as well!
Also with Marchbank, the contested spoil, disposal of opponent and quick recovery.
How much does Marchbank look like SOS (senior ) when he wears the long sleeves. Some of his movements I need to do a double take.
We've all been saying that SOS must have seen something very special in him. Perhaps that's what it was ;)
Whatever it was, he's not disappointed. A very impressive talented young defender.
Was very happy with Kerridge's game.
Only one blunder the OOBF running out of the back pocket.
Super goal too.
Another mature body certainly adds to our midfield mix.... but with Ed Curnow to return, who get chopped out of Cuningham, Fisher or Kerridge?
Was very happy with Kerridge's game.
Only one blunder the OOBF running out of the back pocket.
Super goal too.
Another mature body certainly adds to our midfield mix.... but with Ed Curnow to return, who get chopped out of Cuningham, Fisher or Kerridge?
Not sure he'll get dropped but Fisher would benefit greatly from some VFL time, he needs to get his body sorted and his confidence up. Dees are a hard at it physical team, I expect they'll try and beat up on the baby Blues.
Not sure he'll get dropped but Fisher would benefit greatly from some VFL time, he needs to get his body sorted and his confidence up. Dees are a hard at it physical team, I expect they'll try and beat up on the baby Blues.
Fisher may lack some size and maturity, but i don't think he lacks heart.
He reminds me of a little Jack Russell. Little, energetic and will attack anything regardless of its size.
Interested to see the mainly positive replies in here. This game actually was the first time the gameplan frustrated me. We are slow slow slow to move it forward then cannot lock it in, so it goes down the other end for an easy score.
I know why we are doing it, and know (hope) it will change in the next year or so, but it would be nice to kick 6-7-8 goals in a quarter one day.
We lose control in last quarters as our midfield gets tired and drops off, but again we are competitive.
We make the easy look difficult moving the ball forward, with several times a kick on the bounce will bounce over a guys head, rather than hitting him in stride on the full.
Still we have a great crop of young guys and some really good senior players now, we are lacking reliable mid tier types to pick up the slack. I'm still positive.
Interested to see the mainly positive replies in here. This game actually was the first time the gameplan frustrated me. We are slow slow slow to move it forward then cannot lock it in, so it goes down the other end for an easy score.
I know why we are doing it, and know (hope) it will change in the next year or so, but it would be nice to kick 6-7-8 goals in a quarter one day.
We lose control in last quarters as our midfield gets tired and drops off, but again we are competitive.
We make the easy look difficult moving the ball forward, with several times a kick on the bounce will bounce over a guys head, rather than hitting him in stride on the full.
Still we have a great crop of young guys and some really good senior players now, we are lacking reliable mid tier types to pick up the slack. I'm still positive.
Word for word, I pretty much agree, except that you must have the patience of a saint - I got frustrated with chip and kick by Round 3.
At Shades and Paul
My view is that Ill take a win no matter how ugly at this stage. We can pretty up the game style as the experience and skill set of the group grows/improves. We are showing that we can match it with most but consistency and sustained effort is the problem at present, that will get better. Having said that, I would like them to be a little bolder more often. The chip chip chip stuff is ok to slow down the tempo and get a hold of the game again but at some point, they have to have a crack at winning the game. Perhaps its a confidence thing. Its chipping it around vs run and gun is a balancing act I reckon.
At Shades and Paul
My view is that Ill take a win no matter how ugly at this stage. We can pretty up the game style as the experience and skill set of the group grows/improves. We are showing that we can match it with most but consistency and sustained effort is the problem at present, that will get better. Having said that, I would like them to be a little bolder more often. The chip chip chip stuff is ok to slow down the tempo and get a hold of the game again but at some point, they have to have a crack at winning the game. Perhaps its a confidence thing. Its chipping it around vs run and gun is a balancing act I reckon.
Fair points Nando. I guess just like the Swans of a few seasons back, it is a type of achievement to be able to drag pacy, offensive teams like GWS and the Crows into the CFC quagmire.
Gee I hate losing, but anyway back to the review of the game.
Regarding Zac, I reckon keep playing him. I'm not over disappointed at all with him. I remember seeing him at training a few times and was astonished how diminutive he is compared to the rest of the list. The way he presents and has a red hot go gives me faith in the bloke. He'll get the confidence soon enough.
Absolutely loving seeing the growth and development of Charlie and Jack. These blokes give their utmost at every contest. A bit more bulk and strength and real soon it will be even more exciting to watch them. Charlies full stretch and marking are terrific, reads the ball in flight so well. Jack backs himself in, I love that, we need more blokes that want to take responsibility at important moments, the more the merrier!
M.
At Shades and Paul
My view is that Ill take a win no matter how ugly at this stage. We can pretty up the game style as the experience and skill set of the group grows/improves. We are showing that we can match it with most but consistency and sustained effort is the problem at present, that will get better. Having said that, I would like them to be a little bolder more often. The chip chip chip stuff is ok to slow down the tempo and get a hold of the game again but at some point, they have to have a crack at winning the game. Perhaps its a confidence thing. Its chipping it around vs run and gun is a balancing act I reckon.
Yep, I honestly have no problem with it, but we were going at like 49% in the first term, and they were 4 goals up. Guys like Harry and Jack will survive on faster ball movement.
Wins are important to this group and we are in every game, heck we could have won 4 of them.
Be nice to score 100 points this year, think that would show some good growth as much as the wins.
Interested to see the mainly positive replies in here. This game actually was the first time the gameplan frustrated me. We are slow slow slow to move it forward then cannot lock it in, so it goes down the other end for an easy score.
I know why we are doing it, and know (hope) it will change in the next year or so, but it would be nice to kick 6-7-8 goals in a quarter one day.
We lose control in last quarters as our midfield gets tired and drops off, but again we are competitive.
We make the easy look difficult moving the ball forward, with several times a kick on the bounce will bounce over a guys head, rather than hitting him in stride on the full.
Still we have a great crop of young guys and some really good senior players now, we are lacking reliable mid tier types to pick up the slack. I'm still positive.
Did you notice the bomb it long down the line tactic resulted in the ball flying through for a Crows goal on numerous occasions? Conceding possession in the wrong area of the ground is very problematic.
Crows had a rocket during the week from their poor performance last week. Came out and kicked 4 straight. That was the difference in the end I reckon.... that crappy start.
Yep, I honestly have no problem with it, but we were going at like 49% in the first term, and they were 4 goals up. Guys like Harry and Jack will survive on faster ball movement.
Wins are important to this group and we are in every game, heck we could have won 4 of them.
Be nice to score 100 points this year, think that would show some good growth as much as the wins.
Only 2 teams scored 100 points in the whole round (although North did score 99), so not that easy these days.
If we can get one more decent marking option in the forward 50, our ball movement may become a bit quicker. As it is, we have to chip the ball around the 50m arc, like a group of schoolboys looking for a hole in a fence. On the few times in the last quarter where we bombed it in, the Crows took a series of simple, almost uncontested marks.
While we are at it, give me a small forward who can crumb, kick straight, and tackle (oh hang on, he was playing for the Crows.....).
One of our problems that many have missed was the amount of ball Smith and Laird had down back, our small forwards provided no pressure at all..Smith was actually getting down forward given how poor our manning up was...he was AA and we put no work into him and Laird at all...whoever the forward coach is needs a rocket up his backside..
We haven't kicked 100 pts this year and are the only team who hasn't. Our scoring is exactly the same as it was this time last year, but we had won 1 more game [6] at this point.
Until we recruit some goal kickers i fear we are going to remain in the rut we have been in for coming on 3 years now - an inability to kick goals. Our lack of players forward of centre who can find the ball, create problems for opposition backmen, lay tackles and kick multiple goals per game is IMO our biggest structural problem. If you can only have 20 scoring shots per game and average 70 points you will be lucky to win 6-7 games, even with a good defence.
I understand the game plan given the players we have, but our personnel is a major issue and nothing we have tried this year has made any improvement when you look at the numbers. Maybe we keep playing Fisher [as an example] but he can't kick goals, doesn't win enough ball, and doesn't lay enough tackles. At this point he is a liability to the team and the game plan, mainly because other players can't cover his lack of output. Jack tries super hard [which i love], but his output as a forward is still pretty poor.
The idea that we will just 'naturally improve' our scoring has proven again this year to be a fallacy, as it has been for the 2 seasons prior. We are still rigidly stuck to the bottom of the scoring stats due to a long history of poor recruiting, list management and prioritising defence over the need to kick goals in order to win games.
We had the same number of i50's on the weekend as Adelaide, but they generated 7 more scoring shots and kept the ball i50 much better than us. Our repeat entries and retention i50 was poor, the ball bounced back out easily too many times, which ultimately cost us at the other end of the ground. I see more of the same on the horizon over the coming 8 weeks unless we try something different up forward - close games but a majority of losses due to our inability to generate bigger enough scores.
At Shades and Paul
My view is that Ill take a win no matter how ugly at this stage. We can pretty up the game style as the experience and skill set of the group grows/improves. We are showing that we can match it with most but consistency and sustained effort is the problem at present, that will get better. Having said that, I would like them to be a little bolder more often. The chip chip chip stuff is ok to slow down the tempo and get a hold of the game again but at some point, they have to have a crack at winning the game. Perhaps its a confidence thing. Its chipping it around vs run and gun is a balancing act I reckon.
I reckon its tied to fitness too.
The teams that run and gun are the ones that run out four quarters better.
Given the change in the interchange, it might simply be a matter of thats not our go, so we will do something else until there are no other options.
Going back to the Pies premiership year, I seem to remember them playing keepings off a lot back then, chipping it around and then changing it up as the game wore on.
The thing is, the whole retention of posession is a double whammy way to knock your opposition around.
1. They spend so long chasing tail and not having the ball that they feel "uncomfortable" and out of the game a bit.
2. Its easier to beat an opponent who feels as though the game is a bit of a grind.
I wouldn't be too down on the game plan... yes, we can move it quicker, and we would all like to score easier... but there wasn't a lot in that game on Saturday.
Fundamentals are pretty solid.
I wouldn't be too down on the game plan... yes, we can move it quicker, and we would all like to score easier... but there wasn't a lot in that game on Saturday.
Fundamentals are pretty solid.
Agree...they kicked some easy goals from our mistakes,.if you want to chip the ball around then you have to hit every target, the good teams
will punish you if you dont and the Crows lived off our mistakes rather than being that proactive with their own great plays.
I wouldn't be too down on the game plan... yes, we can move it quicker, and we would all like to score easier... but there wasn't a lot in that game on Saturday.
Fundamentals are pretty solid.
Agree.
First you must learn to walk, then you can learn to run.
Playing keepings off is a way to keep us in the game, and limit the oppositions chance to kick away.
Agree.
First you must learn to walk, then you can learn to run.
Playing keepings off is a way to keep us in the game, and limit the oppositions chance to kick away.
I'm tending to agree with these blokes on this. Even though it ain't pretty, it's competitive, and when we get a little bit more silk (draft/poach/develop from within), and the boys play more games together, and the young boys get another 20+ games into them, we'll get better and more consistent. Defence has to be 2nd nature, and once it's entrenched, add that attacking edge to take advantage of momentum. Remember the Hawks had a rock solid defensive game plan, and that was their springboard into attack. They also had a lot of talent. More than we currently have. You can go a long way if you have both. When Bolts & SOS took over we had bugger all of either. I'm pretty pleased with how both are developing, taking into consideration where we were 2 years ago. You can't just pull those magic rabbits out of hats.
For me, the improvement I want to see this year is a few more wins in the second half of the year. Last year we had a purple patch in the early/middle of the season, and then had 1 more win for the year I think. And then we started this year poorly. It would be nice to see a more competitive end to this season, and 2 or 3 more wins. I think the boys have a little bit of belief, but once they truly believe, strange things can happen. Taking some confidence into the preseason has got to do wonders. I like Bolton sprouting the line about being in a hurry. They have to build the foundations, but they have to build a winning feeling on top of that before the belief starts fading.
For those so interested, try doing a google search for whether offense or defense wins you games. I did precisely that, and whilst I found nothing related to AFL, I found a few for other sports, and there does not appear to be any statistics to back up the theory that defense wins you games. The fact is (surprise) that both are needed and teams that are considered offensive are equally successful as those considered defensive.
In terms of our team, I think the closeness of some of our games creates an illusory proximity. Whilst on paper 3 goals may not seem like much, our scoring impotence means that most of the time this is a bridge too far to cross. Nobody knows whether this will improve in the future.
In respect of the Hawks, I think they won their 3peat less because of their defense and more due to :
- astute trading and recruiting over several seasons, leading to a plethora of A graders with optimal team balance
- restructuring of their coaching staff and setup at the end of 2012
- playing a very aggressive, intimidating style of footy i.e unsociable footy.
And I should also add, recent teams that are considered uber defensive, i.e the Ross Lyon Saints / Paul Roos Swans teams, have one flag between them, despite years of dominating the competition.
Pretty sure Bolton isn't instructing the team to kick low scores, move the ball slowly or turn it over.
First quarter was horrific to watch. The game style needs a very high workrate. As soon as we went to the required level, we became better and competitive.
Re: umpires, I was at the game and watched it when I got home. It was really interesting to hear the commentators view - there were a couple of free kicks at least that rarely get paid that they got, and the commentators said that they were there and should be paid (eg 50m penalty for impeding a player once they got rid of the ball). Be nice if they either paid them all, or none at all. We didn't get those frees in return.
Jack doesn't get a lot of possessions, but as others have said, he knows footy. The goal he kicked was great with communication from teammates (Sumner), positional play (Wright went back to the goalsquare) and SOJ then took the responsibility and celebrated as soon as he kicked it. What seemed less than a minute later he was chasing on the half forward flank to the wing. No worries with his workrate.
Weitering is in his second season of footy, playing at both ends of the ground. Apart from the goal he gifted in the 1st qtr, I thought he was alright.
Murphy looked injured, particularly so in the last 5-10 minutes.
I could go on, but don't have the attention span!
Sun was in my eyes most of the game, and I found it hard to pick up the ball on the members side with the changing ads and darkness...
Pretty sure Bolton isn't instructing the team to kick low scores, move the ball slowly or turn it over.
Neither do Roos or Lyon - they're byproducts of a specific approach to football that prioritizes certain things over others.
I agree most of the fundamentals are solid and there is a lot to like - except our inability to score.
As Malcolm Blight said in his HOF acceptance speech when asked about his philosophy on playing and coaching, he made the point that the team that wins is always the one that kicks the highest score! Therefore his approach was always based around an attempt to outscore his opponents. If you can't score, then you aren't going to win many games and you are never going to be successful.
As Paul correctly notes, defence and attack need to be balanced, and you need an equal measures of both to have any sort of success. We seem to subscribed to a theory that you can focus on defence, and then at some as yet unspecified point in the future you "flick some imaginary switch" and add an attacking component onto the game plan, and then you become a really good team. This theory doesn't really stand up to any sort of logical scrutiny, and our sides ongoing malaise [in terms of win/loss, scoring, points conceded, conservative game style] would also suggest it is not really working that well.
I would also propose that the counter argument is actually in many ways more sensible - learn and develop players with an ability to score [because it takes such a long time to develop the players to do it] and then add the defenders and defensive attitude later. Defenders and defensive patterns are much easier to recruit and teach.
I'm sure we aren't coaching the team to kick low scores, but at the same time we keep picking the same players who have struggled to kick over 10 goals per game for 2 years. We have also made a conscious decision to not actively recruit an established KPF or quality goal kicker [bar maybe Matt Wright], but have 'loaded up' on defenders instead.
We all 'feel like' we are heading in the right direction, and in many areas we are. But the cold hard facts when you look at the numbers vs last year tell you something a little different - we are in an almost identical position to where we were. And our ability to score has not improved at all over the last 70 odd games - so the idea that it will somehow improve markedly over the next 8 weeks is very optimistic.
sbf, those articles I read discussing offense/defense made the point that defense is actually easier, and requires less thought and creativity than offense, so you may have a point.
When you simply think about how long it takes to develop a consistent quality goal kicking forward ( say 3-4 years minimum) and how few quality forwards are traded (compared to mids and defenders), it makes obvious sense to have a major focus on offence first.
As part of this each year I would also advocate you should be adding 5/6 forwards to your list without fail, given the very poor conversion rate of recruits into A or even B graders. It's a numbers game when you think about it, and we are where we are because of a combination of our recruitment choices being very poor, and not drafting and trading enough goal kicking prospects.
http://www.theroar.com.au/2014/08/13/defence-may-be-the-best-form-of-attack-but-attack-is-the-best-method-of-winning-premierships/
For anyone who's interested here's an interesting article on the subject from a couple of years ago.
Attack is good and we all want to see more of it. We must be able to defend though and learn how to slow a game down and regain momentum when required. Our ball use is still not great, and if it can be improved with the development of more skilled players our attack will suddenly look a whole lot better.
There have been glimpses of how good our attack might be and sadly there have been times when it has been comical. We do need a bit more class up fwd which we need to develop and import. I can recall quite a few fast and attacking plays throughout the year that fell to pieces because of errors by our players. They might have cost us a couple of close ones. We need more class, more games into our good kids, and to gel and execute better. Then i think our attack will increase naturally. And if Harry turns out to be ok, and Charlie develops into what he looks like becoming then we might go alright up fwd.
I wonder if Bolts does have the magical switch to speed up the game plan? As mentioned above we do need to be able to attack better. It is a must. We were labelled downhill skiers once, and that doesn't work either. Just got to get the balance right. Maybe Bolts is teaching defence first if it is easier. Give them a foundation to build on?
When you simply think about how long it takes to develop a consistent quality goal kicking forward ( say 3-4 years minimum) and how few quality forwards are traded (compared to mids and defenders), it makes obvious sense to have a major focus on offence first.
As part of this each year I would also advocate you should be adding 5/6 forwards to your list without fail, given the very poor conversion rate of recruits into A or even B graders. It's a numbers game when you think about it, and we are where we are because of a combination of our recruitment choices being very poor, and not drafting and trading enough goal kicking prospects.
Absolute rubbish.
No good having gun forwards if you can't get the ball to them...
Gun midfields win flags as long as the bookends are ok. And it's beyond obvious to suggest that a team isn't going to get close to a GF it it has too many spuds in its best 22.
When was the last time a key forward kicked bag in a GF, or even a PF? Ablett snr back in '89 - and the Cats lost.
That article is naive in its analysis. Stats can be tweaked to say what anyone want them to say.
Footy is a simple game - work hard, win the ball, use it well (and ideally quickly) and you'll invariably win.....
We add Kelly and Hopper to our mid mix next year and our forwards will look as good as any in the comp.
I should add I think it's time for Harry Mc to be given an extended run in the 1s.....some blokes just produce when given the opportunity at the elite level.
And it takes a lot of the heat off Levi...
David Cuningham is one who seems to relish the big stage albeit he needs to find the pill more....
Zac Fisher is one who needs time back in the 2s.
I should add I think it's time for Harry Mc to be given an extended run in the 1s.....some blokes just produce when given the opportunity at the elite level.
I think he's miles away.
Given his current form if he's subjected to AFL type media and fan scrutiny you could set his career back years if not end it! What's our rush?
Personally, if we had ACoS fit last weekend we probably win, that tells me there is little need for drastic actions.
The kid Mckay can get a sh1te load of football, but at the moment he makes Casboult look efficient! Anyone who has watched him live can confirm he can kick over a barn, he just can't hit it!
I think he's miles away.
Given his current form if he's subjected to AFL type media and fan scrutiny you could set his career back years if not end it! What's our rush?
Personally, if we had ACoS fit last weekend we probably win, that tells me there is little need for drastic actions.
The kid Mckay can get a sh1te load of football, but at the moment he makes Casboult look efficient! Anyone who has watched him live can confirm he can kick over a barn, he just can't hit it!
I think you're right LP. I'd like to see Harry playing at AFL level ... when he's ready. Sorting out his kicking for goal would be a good first step.
We all 'feel like' we are heading in the right direction, and in many areas we are. But the cold hard facts when you look at the numbers vs last year tell you something a little different - we are in an almost identical position to where we were. And our ability to score has not improved at all over the last 70 odd games - so the idea that it will somehow improve markedly over the next 8 weeks is very optimistic.
Given that many pundits predicted that we'd go backwards this season, matching last season's performance isn't all that bad; particularly when you consider the inexperienced lineup we've used in most games.
I should add I think it's time for Harry Mc to be given an extended run in the 1s.....some blokes just produce when given the opportunity at the elite level.
And it takes a lot of the heat off Levi...
David Cuningham is one who seems to relish the big stage albeit he needs to find the pill more....
Zac Fisher is one who needs time back in the 2s.
Disagree on Fisher. His pressure is outstanding. A couple of times he ran past Kreuz or Caz after they marked out on the wings but they ignored him and didnt dish off a handball. The kid has got "it" and doesnt look as tired as some other newbies imo.
Given that many pundits predicted that we'd go backwards this season, matching last season's performance isn't all that bad; particularly when you consider the inexperienced lineup we've used in most games.
Numbers don't always tell the story either.
Our backline is much more dynamic than it was a couple of years ago when Matthew Watson was lumbering around there.
Jones, A Silvagni, Marchbank and Plowman are offensive defenders who can all play on talls and smalls.
Rowe (if he gets back) is still handy on the gorillas and can play forward.
Weitering can play both ends.
Docherty is our best HBF since Andrew McKay.
Simpson still provides great run.
Given that many pundits predicted that we'd go backwards this season, matching last season's performance isn't all that bad; particularly when you consider the inexperienced lineup we've used in most games.
It's still early but we are already likely to equal last season give or take a game.
I heard Brereton on radio yesterday defending his pre-season predictions of our imminent demise by claiming Carlton and other clubs with young lists like CheatsFC will go backwards in the remaining rounds as young bodies crumble under season long pressure.
Just watched the game again. I reckon there were only 3 blokes who didn't hold up their end of the bargain - Casboult, Cuningham and Sumner. Cuningham's ability to go missing/vanish is so frustrating, especially as when he asserts/inserts himself into the game/contest he's a ripper... what a tease. He may yet be Lucas MK III unless he can find consistency ;) ;D
We are really beginning to see a team discipline/ethic developing very strongly (which was betrayed a couple of weeks ago but we bounced back impressively... all is forgiven ;D :D) So, stage one is just about locked into place - powerful and effective defensive culture. Next, let's kick some goals. Before the season is out I would really like to see us put together a 4 quarter performance that sees us belt the shizen out of our opponents and win by 60+
Can't agree with the criticisms of ZF, he's a fkn ripper who gets from contest to contest like a ferret with its @rse on fire. His defensive pressure is elite and forces many opponents into error. Collecting the aggot and running from the contest / backing himself will come. Fulfilling his role beautifully.
Come on H, put in a good one this weekend and force yourself into the seniors.
I finished watching the replay last night too.
I thought Murphy was very ordinary, compared to when he's 'on'. And don't quote me his stats.
Fisher? Tries hard granted, just not there yet imo.....just reckon he's better off gaining experience and possessions in the 2s...
.....................................................
We are really beginning to see a team discipline/ethic developing very strongly (which was betrayed a couple of weeks ago but we bounced back impressively... all is forgiven ;D :D) So, stage one is just about locked into place - powerful and effective defensive culture. Next, let's kick some goals. Before the season is out I would really like to see us put together a 4 quarter performance that sees us belt the shizen out of our opponents and win by 60+
.....................................................
We all would, but unless something phenomenal changes, that won't happen.
I finished watching the replay last night too.
I thought Murphy was very ordinary, compared to when he's 'on'. And don't quote me his stats.
Fisher? Tries hard granted, just not there yet imo.....just reckon he's better off gaining experience and possessions in the 2s...
Agree on Murphy, his possessions are junk. 15 meter kicks backwards and side ways that hit the target may boost his supercoach points but they don't help the team.
Fisher brings pressure that no one else in the side does, we have to persist with him. Inside 50 pressure acts are crucial and Rioli and his buddies terrorized opposition defenders for years. Ever notice that we make Bachar Houli look like Andrew McLeod whenever we play the tigers? He's not that quick but we can't get near him.
Agree.
First you must learn to walk, then you can learn to run.
Playing keepings off is a way to keep us in the game, and limit the oppositions chance to kick away.
I'm not down on it. I understand it. I'm glad we as supporters are mainly getting it as well.
It was just the first time this year that i felt frustrated by it, but what was good was that we were able to stem the flow on the ground without having to wait for quarter time. So that showed some real leadership IMO.
We are really beginning to see a team discipline/ethic developing very strongly (which was betrayed a couple of weeks ago but we bounced back impressively... all is forgiven ;D :D) So, stage one is just about locked into place - powerful and effective defensive culture. Next, let's kick some goals. Before the season is out I would really like to see us put together a 4 quarter performance that sees us belt the shizen out of our opponents and win by 60+
I thought when ACoS was in the team this looked more likely than before. I think you need some mongrel in a team to properly stomp on an opponent. You know if you get 30 or 40 points up the opposition are going to get physical, and in ACoS' absence we have very few willing to take on that aspect of the game.
We are a little bit meek when we are in front, and we go into self-preservation cruise mode too easily. If we fought as hard when in front as we do when we get 20 or 30 points down well see a lot better results. We need to be a little bit greedy, but greedy as a team not greedy as in self-reserving individuals!
It's hard to see it happening, but it would be interesting to see Rowe and ACoS playing side-by-side leaving Jones to get up the field as a monster sized version of Docherty.
Just watched the game again. I reckon there were only 3 blokes who didn't hold up their end of the bargain - Casboult, Cuningham and Sumner. Cuningham's ability to go missing/vanish is so frustrating, especially as when he asserts/inserts himself into the game/contest he's a ripper... what a tease. He may yet be Lucas MK III unless he can find consistency ;) ;D
We are really beginning to see a team discipline/ethic developing very strongly (which was betrayed a couple of weeks ago but we bounced back impressively... all is forgiven ;D :D) So, stage one is just about locked into place - powerful and effective defensive culture. Next, let's kick some goals. Before the season is out I would really like to see us put together a 4 quarter performance that sees us belt the shizen out of our opponents and win by 60+
Can't agree with the criticisms of ZF, he's a fkn ripper who gets from contest to contest like a ferret with its @rse on fire. His defensive pressure is elite and forces many opponents into error. Collecting the aggot and running from the contest / backing himself will come. Fulfilling his role beautifully.
Come on H, put in a good one this weekend and force yourself into the seniors.
Problem I have is we let the Crouch boys get 30 possies each including 20 plus between them in the last quarter when the game was there to be won and we also let Laird and Smith get way too much of the ball....its no point our mids getting high numbers if your opposition are doing the same and their players use the ball better ..
I thought when ACoS was in the team this looked more likely than before. I think you need some mongrel in a team to properly stomp on an opponent. You know if you get 30 or 40 points up the opposition are going to get physical, and in ACoS' absence we have very few willing to take on that aspect of the game.
We are a little bit meek when we are in front, and we go into self-preservation cruise mode too easily. If we fought as hard when in front as we do when we get 20 or 30 points down well see a lot better results. We need to be a little bit greedy, but greedy as a team not greedy as in self-reserving individuals!
It's hard to see it happening, but it would be interesting to see Rowe and ACoS playing side-by-side leaving Jones to get up the field as a monster sized version of Docherty.
Agree re Alex S. The team looks less beatable and less fragile with him in the team - maybe it's just my perception.
At this point, Lamb appears far hungrier and hard at it than Sumner sadly. The latter i rated but injuries or whatever have left him well off the pace....
I thought Casboult went ok. Again he has no foil up forward.
Just watched the game again. I reckon there were only 3 blokes who didn't hold up their end of the bargain - Casboult, Cuningham and Sumner. Cuningham's ability to go missing/vanish is so frustrating, especially as when he asserts/inserts himself into the game/contest he's a ripper... what a tease. He may yet be Lucas MK III unless he can find consistency ;) ;D
We are really beginning to see a team discipline/ethic developing very strongly (which was betrayed a couple of weeks ago but we bounced back impressively... all is forgiven ;D :D) So, stage one is just about locked into place - powerful and effective defensive culture. Next, let's kick some goals. Before the season is out I would really like to see us put together a 4 quarter performance that sees us belt the shizen out of our opponents and win by 60+
Can't agree with the criticisms of ZF, he's a fkn ripper who gets from contest to contest like a ferret with its @rse on fire. His defensive pressure is elite and forces many opponents into error. Collecting the aggot and running from the contest / backing himself will come. Fulfilling his role beautifully.
Come on H, put in a good one this weekend and force yourself into the seniors.
Most other thought Casboult went ok after doughnuts in the first qtr. Took 7 strong marks in the last 3 qtrs and kick a couple of goals. Look forward to McKay making his debut as we need a 2nd tall forward.
I haven't criticised Zac F., I just don't think he's ready (physically and mentally) to compete with the big boys....
sbf, those articles I read discussing offense/defense made the point that defense is actually easier, and requires less thought and creativity than offense, so you may have a point.
We started the season going for attack. It was a complete disaster. Bolton very quickly realised we weren't up to it so wound it all back after getting hammered in the preseason games and rnd 1.
We were handballing at all costs and playing on from even the most difficult stations.
I really like Richmond's tactic of slicing little 25m passes into the corridor I the forward line. If all your team mates know you're going to do it you become predictable to your team mates which we don't have moving the ball forward right now.
We started the season going for attack. It was a complete disaster. Bolton very quickly realised we weren't up to it so wound it all back after getting hammered in the preseason games and rnd 1.
We were handballing at all costs and playing on from even the most difficult stations.
I really like Richmond's tactic of slicing little 25m passes into the corridor I the forward line. If all your team mates know you're going to do it you become predictable to your team mates which we don't have moving the ball forward right now.
I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid, attacking footy, so it can be done.
I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid, attacking footy, so it can be done.
We are a completely different outfit today, there is one less interchange on the bench an interchange cap of what 90 rotations? We don't have the smalls of the calibre of Yarran, Eddie and Garlett when they pulled their finger out in terms of speed and goal sense, Chris Judd and Andrew Carrazzo have retired, Jarrrad Waite is playing elsewhere but may as well retire, and we have half of our side coming off their first pre season unlike back then when we had maximum two or 3, to go with Marc Murphy in his then career best form, where now he is no where near as effective even when he is back to his best footy.
Sure we have some talented young kids, but 6 years later is a long time to lament what we used to be. Collingwood won the premiership that year coached by Malthouse as an indicator of just how much things have changed.
Its time to leave what we used to be able to do in history where it belongs, and appreciate that the game has changed, and we haven't played this way with any real success since 2011 for a very good reason.
Thry, the point I was making is that this is less about cattle and more about the mindset of the coaching staff. I am of course quite aware of player movements in the intervening years. Of course the cattle at your disposal must count for something, but not as much as people think in my opinion.
Thry, the point I was making is that this is less about cattle and more about the mindset of the coaching staff. I am of course quite aware of player movements in the intervening years. Of course the cattle at your disposal must count for something, but not as much as people think in my opinion.
And the point I am making is that the game is a very different beast than what it used to be.
Like it or lump it, teams reacted to us playing with that forward press, and any attempt by us to even attempt to execute it today results in score from turnover quicker than you can say Rasberry Pie.
They did a couple of things.
1. The Bombers stopped us at the coal face. We relied on getting first use of the footy. Their method of stopping that (besides injecting bigger bodies... ;D) was to put the bigger bodies at the stoppage resulting in repeat stoppages, and the inability of our team to get the ball inside forward fifty quickly. They knew they only had to stop a few mids, and the rest were incapable of doing enough damage (Murphy and Judd).
2. Teams started setting up for the quick ball into forward 50. The current en vogue "score from turnover" is a result of that, where teams would have the ability to rebound as quickly as we put it in there and much of that is the new team defense, defensive zone that Hawthorn have made popular, and we are executing well enough. Remember we were deemed to be "downhill skiers"?? This is a result of us executing a forward press by flooding forward a bit. This leaves our defense playing one on one, and we were hardly full of Silvagni types back then.
3. We were often beaten in one on ones by other teams who matched our ability to get the game going on their terms because the aforementioned forward press, flood forward, or whatever you want to call it, left us exposed. We often had players attacking off half back together to get numbers in there quickly, who were not as good as Simpson and Docherty are at getting back to perform defensive duties.
ultimately, lamenting times past, is a symptom of not appreciating that the landscape is forever changing. There is as much chance that this game style would be more succesful today because it is different as it would be less succesful, but the key isnt to remember how good we were or it was, but the key is to apply that methodology in context of today and appreciate that perhaps we would be in exactly the same spot even if we did play like that. Realistically we need to be better at applying horses for courses, and playing different ways in different contexts which is what I am hoping Bolton is getting us to do.
I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid, attacking footy, so it can be done.
I reckon it's pretty clear that Bolton has a long term plan in place. He is coaching the team to its strengths and attempting to cover the weaknesses.
The Box Hill Hawks were a high scoring team under Bolton's watch and I think that suggesting that he doesn't trust or can't coach attacking footy is seriously underestimating his coaching ability.
We were playing fluid, attacking footy a few seasons ago when we had Betts, Waite, Garlett, Yarran, Judd, Scotland, Carrazzo ... and we were getting pantsed quite regularly too. Of course, footy has changed since then and dour, close games seem to be more common now.
Thry, you make some fair points, but that game style is now used by GWS and Adelaide, so I doubt it's past its use by date.
I also hope that Bolts has a number of different styles in the works, because we won't go anywhere of note playing solely in this way. My fear is that we will become a Paul Roos / Ross Lyon type team, and I don't want that.
Being supportive of our most successful era since 2001 is not completely devoid of logic.
DJC, I don't follow the VFL too much apart from the NB's, so I wasn't aware of that. But that sounds good to me.
I can only assume that Bolton either doesn't trust this style of play or can't coach it successfully. A few seasons back we were playing quite fluid, attacking footy, so it can be done.
It's the exact same way Roos started at Melbourne. By the 3rd year they became more attacking once their defence was set.
It's the exact same way Roos started at Melbourne. By the 3rd year they became more attacking once their defence was set.
I hope Bolton aims higher than being a Roos clone.
For those so interested, try doing a google search for whether offense or defense wins you games. I did precisely that, and whilst I found nothing related to AFL, I found a few for other sports, and there does not appear to be any statistics to back up the theory that defense wins you games. The fact is (surprise) that both are needed and teams that are considered offensive are equally successful as those considered defensive.
About a month ago there was a bloke interviewed on triple m. I forget his name unfortunately, but he just finished writing a book on that very subject - "What makes teams great?"
He went through 100+ years of history across multiple sports from all over the globe. Usually teams who had sustained success in some form.
I forget how many different examples he used, but he had the 4-peat pies from the 30's as the only AFL team.
Anywho, his research concluded that....
- it was not about the team who had the best offense.
- it was not about the team who had the best defense.
- it was not about the team who had the best player.
However, it was all about the team who had the best leaders.All throughout history, the teams that had the best leaders at the club, were able to rise up against better attack/defense/individuals to be the best.
IMO, focusing on defense first is partly a psychological ploy employed by the coaches that gets everyone on the same page. Not everyone on a team can attack, but everyone on a team can defend. It's a pack mentality, 'one-in all-in', type stuff. Play for eachother, give effort.
A leader brings people together...and that is an example of it.
So 'defense first' doesn't mean defense is more important than attack, but its a stepping stone to success IMO.
Is the book called "The Captain Class" by Sam Walker ?
At any rate, thanks for that informative post. I agree with what you say. Some common ground once in a striped moon.
Is the book called "The Captain Class" by Sam Walker ?
At any rate, thanks for that informative post. I agree with what you say. Some common ground once in a striped moon.
Not sure TBH.
Has that one just come out in the past couple months? Could be the one.
I heard it at like 630am on the way to work one frosty morning, i was half asleep at the time. :-[
EDIT: Just looked that up and yeah, thats the one.
https://penguin.com.au/books/the-captain-class-9780670078493
When I started out, I never expected to reach one emphatic conclusion. I assumed the fingerprints of these elite units would have many of the same whorls and ridges yet no perfect matches. In the end, I was shocked to discover that the world’s most extraordinary sports teams didn’t have many propulsive traits in common, they had exactly one. And it was something I hadn’t anticipated.
I finished watching the replay last night too.
I thought Murphy was very ordinary, compared to when he's 'on'. And don't quote me his stats.
Fisher? Tries hard granted, just not there yet imo.....just reckon he's better off gaining experience and possessions in the 2s...
Pretty fair observation. I thought Murph looked hesitant and often 2nd guessing himself. Is not playing with confidence or 'edginess'/boldness.
Not sure TBH.
Has that one just come out in the past couple months? Could be the one.
I heard it at like 630am on the way to work one frosty morning, i was half asleep at the time. :-[
EDIT: Just looked that up and yeah, thats the one.
Yes, thanks for that. Released May 2017.
Thry, the point I was making is that this is less about cattle and more about the mindset of the coaching staff. I am of course quite aware of player movements in the intervening years. Of course the cattle at your disposal must count for something, but not as much as people think in my opinion.
You don't think a midfield that includes Judd and a forward line with Betts/Garlett & Walker wouldn't be suited to a different game plan than our current one?
If we moved the ball in as quickly as we did with those guys terrorising the opposition it would be rebounded back up the other end and see us on the end of a whacking most weeks.
Cattle is only a part of the equation, that I do agree with completely, but this current team is more suited to Bolton's gameplan than Ratts I think and I was happy with Ratts gameplan.
From Round 1, I posted the following
Also from a tactical point, what should Carlton do?
They should make themselves hard to beat.
Forget the scoring for a moment, forget quick breaks and everyone running forward of the play, concentrate on getting into position and shutting down.
It is ugly and it makes us a mongrel crap team to watch, but it also teaches a hell of a lot of discipline and you don't need talent to be disciplined, you need commitment to the task.
The equivalent is my team in soccer, West Brom, they play ugly, they play without real fullbacks in the traditional sense (well at least without a RB) and they don't sprint forward on breaks, they maintain their positions and they are bloody hard in the tackle. It is ugly, it pisses me off, but clubs hate playing against it and it is effective.
If the club played 75% of the game shutting down their opponent, went back to the early Clarko days of crap football and shutting teams down with anti-social football, I think it would go a long way towards setting this group up.
I stick to it still. I continue to think this club is on the right track, even though at times they are really frustrating to watch
All players come with their own set of limitations - some players can do more than others, some can do things others can't etc. I get that. But IMO, players are more versatile than they are sometimes given credit for.
I guess we will all be the wiser pretty soon as to whether what we are seeing is the real deal or just another mirage that we hope is there, but in fact isn't.
I've been a member of this forum for a while now and we have been absolute poo for the bulk of that time.
I cant believe I am reading stuff on here about hoping BB knows how to play an attacking game style and all the negativety.....
Some people are so bloody hard to please .
Im loving that our team is playing like a TEAM. I'm wrapped that we've gone from hoping and wishing for a consistent effort to knowing my team will give a consistant effort every week. I'm also ecstatic that I get to see our babies, grow before my own eyes because I know that they're being taught and understanding how to play the game the right way.
Fair dinkum unbelievable some of you.
I'm all for free speech and differing opinions btw, but considering the changeover of our playing list, changeover of coaching staff, how much better do you really expect us to be ??
I'm wrapped with our progress and back BB 1000%.
Just sayin......
I don't think I'm that hard to please. Say what you like about resets, rebuilds, refurbs etc. It is, like any sport, ultimately defined by wins and losses. We are currently sitting 16th. Al I want to see is that we can kick winning scores on a regular, or even semi regular basis. And by winning score, I mean around 100 points.
We can defend till doomsday. We won't win much at all kicking around 70 points a game.
Now Bolts may well have all the answers. He may well lead us to the promised land. We may even build a dynasty with him in charge.
I'll be waiting, and I'll be watching.
I've been a member of this forum for a while now and we have been absolute poo for the bulk of that time.
I cant believe I am reading stuff on here about hoping BB knows how to play an attacking game style and all the negativety.....
Some people are so bloody hard to please .
Im loving that our team is playing like a TEAM. I'm wrapped that we've gone from hoping and wishing for a consistent effort to knowing my team will give a consistant effort every week. I'm also ecstatic that I get to see our babies, grow before my own eyes because I know that they're being taught and understanding how to play the game the right way.
Fair dinkum unbelievable some of you.
I'm all for free speech and differing opinions btw, but considering the changeover of our playing list, changeover of coaching staff, how much better do you really expect us to be ??
I'm wrapped with our progress and back BB 1000%.
Just sayin......
Like.
I agree entirely with bigblue's sentiments related to change and progress. Well said.
To add my bit: I'm not ticked off by opinions that differ though. I love the diversity because it provides opportunity to look at the same people/processes from different slants. Indeed my view is there are many roads to Rome. This forum brings people together from possibly every single route :).
Go new Blues
I've been a member of this forum for a while now and we have been absolute poo for the bulk of that time.
The forum has?,,,yep. :)
Like.
I agree entirely with bigblue's sentiments related to change and progress. Well said.
To add my bit: I'm not ticked off by opinions that differ though. I love the diversity because it provides opportunity to look at the same people/processes from different slants. Indeed my view is there are many roads to Rome. This forum brings people together from possibly every single route :).
Go new Blues
Nicely said, LN.
I don't think I'm that hard to please. Say what you like about resets, rebuilds, refurbs etc. It is, like any sport, ultimately defined by wins and losses. We are currently sitting 16th. Al I want to see is that we can kick winning scores on a regular, or even semi regular basis. And by winning score, I mean around 100 points.
We can defend till doomsday. We won't win much at all kicking around 70 points a game.
Now Bolts may well have all the answers. He may well lead us to the promised land. We may even build a dynasty with him in charge.
I'll be waiting, and I'll be watching.
We've pretty much endured the 3 variations in the rebuild false dawns eras
Rattan was as good as it got for offensive / negative accountability systems
Malthouse, went the immediate other way and lost/confused players - physically and mentally (some say he coached for his own contract)
Bolton is no false dawn. He is the real deal. He is better than the aforementioned, in every way.
You can only do with what cattle you have and he has passed and gained my confidence. What remains to be seen, is how he will grow and develop when the cattle list gets better , and it will.
Players will want to come, players will want to stay. He's a "hearts and minds" merchant, with the right amount of pragmatism. You see him in the box, he like a fired up little kid with his hand permanently affixed to his mouth. He has passion.
SOS, knows footy talent, his son is there. they both have passion - its personal for them.
The board now seem to be supporting whats in place.
On the field, this group doesn't give up. (despite some not cutting it) and that's all i want to see. I don't give 2 fks about ladders this year, and maybe next. Its sustained long term, hawks style success from 2019 im interested in.
Fk , will it be sweet when it comes
I've been a member of this forum for a while now and we have been absolute poo for the bulk of that time.
I cant believe I am reading stuff on here about hoping BB knows how to play an attacking game style and all the negativety.....
Some people are so bloody hard to please .
Im loving that our team is playing like a TEAM. I'm wrapped that we've gone from hoping and wishing for a consistent effort to knowing my team will give a consistant effort every week. I'm also ecstatic that I get to see our babies, grow before my own eyes because I know that they're being taught and understanding how to play the game the right way.
Fair dinkum unbelievable some of you.
I'm all for free speech and differing opinions btw, but considering the changeover of our playing list, changeover of coaching staff, how much better do you really expect us to be ??
I'm wrapped with our progress and back BB 1000%.
Just sayin......
Amen brother
Fk , will it be sweet when it comes
The understatement of the year. Bloody oath ;D
Which brings us to another point
Bolton is nearing the end of his "three year not a contract but permanent employment" contract.
Do we need to revise this arrangement given we have confidence we have the right man in place?
Which brings us to another point
Bolton is nearing the end of his "three year not a contract but permanent employment" contract.
Do we need to revise this arrangement given we have confidence we have the right man in place?
Yeah, hand him the keys to Ikon Park and tell him he has 2 jobs:
1. Bring us no 17;
2. Keep all the fwits out of the joint.
We've pretty much endured the 3 variations in the rebuild false dawns eras
Rattan was as good as it got for offensive / negative accountability systems
Malthouse, went the immediate other way and lost/confused players - physically and mentally (some say he coached for his own contract)
Bolton is no false dawn. He is the real deal. He is better than the aforementioned, in every way.
You can only do with what cattle you have and he has passed and gained my confidence. What remains to be seen, is how he will grow and develop when the cattle list gets better , and it will.
Players will want to come, players will want to stay. He's a "hearts and minds" merchant, with the right amount of pragmatism. You see him in the box, he like a fired up little kid with his hand permanently affixed to his mouth. He has passion.
SOS, knows footy talent, his son is there. they both have passion - its personal for them.
The board now seem to be supporting whats in place.
On the field, this group doesn't give up. (despite some not cutting it) and that's all i want to see. I don't give 2 fks about ladders this year, and maybe next. Its sustained long term, hawks style success from 2019 im interested in.
Fk , will it be sweet when it comes
I want the club to be successful, so I look forward to your prophecies and beliefs about Bolton being correct, but I don't buy into the "offense only" myth making that surrounds Ratts' tenure.
Which brings us to another point
Bolton is nearing the end of his "three year not a contract but permanent employment" contract.
Do we need to revise this arrangement given we have confidence we have the right man in place?
Bombers had confidence in Hird.
Collingwood had confidence in Buckley.
Sure things are tracking nicely, but lets not get ahead of ourselves just yet.
I don't think Bolton is the type of guy to do a 'Ross Lyon' on us.
I want the club to be successful, so I look forward to your prophecies and beliefs about Bolton being correct, but I don't buy into the "offense only" myth making that surrounds Ratts' tenure.
I didn't say offense only.
Which brings us to another point
Bolton is nearing the end of his "three year not a contract but permanent employment" contract.
Do we need to revise this arrangement given we have confidence we have the right man in place?
Yes, i agree.
I agreed with Carlton setting it up the way they did, after what they went through.
But now, i believe he is worthy of comfort, via a traditional contract
I didn't say offense only.
If I've misquoted you, I apologize. No doubt you would be familiar with the paraphrasing and name calling from that era - one way runners, down hill skiers etc.
Bombers had confidence in Hird.
Collingwood had confidence in Buckley.
Sure things are tracking nicely, but lets not get ahead of ourselves just yet.
I don't think Bolton is the type of guy to do a 'Ross Lyon' on us.
Tend to agree....bit early yet , with contracts comes more pressure and probably targets that have to be achieved .
I'd prefer to leave things as they are and not introduce any perceived pressure at least until he has done 3 years and
we have a bigger sample of his work. No reason to change anything while we are making progress...
If I've misquoted you, I apologize. No doubt you would be familiar with the paraphrasing and name calling from that era - one way runners, down hill skiers etc.
Its not name calling, it just is what it was.
He had an awesome offensive game, mainly because he had the personnel to deliver it. Some of the most exciting and also some of the most frustrating blues footy i've seen in the last 15 years was from that era.
He took us to a kick within a prelim. There's no person, i would like to see have success more than him- in what ever club shows faith in him
Its not name calling, it just is what it was.
He had an awesome offensive game, mainly because he had the personnel to deliver it. Some of the most exciting and also some of the most frustrating blues footy i've seen in the last 15 years was from that era.
He took us to a kick within a prelim. There's no person, i would like to see have success more than him- in what ever club shows faith in him
This thread has strayed so far from its origins............however, if I may be excused a little more misdirection :
have a brief look at where we sat for points conceded over the last few seasons (obviously, higher up is worse) :
2012 - 10th
2013 - 10th
2014 - 5th
2015 - 1st
2016 - 9th
2017 (to date) - 9th
To me, Bolton has almost brought us full circle, and we now have a defensive record comparable to Ratten's last season. Yet under Bolton, we are now seen as a tight defensive unit etc., things are looking up etc, yet under Ratts we were a basket case that leaked goals, could only attack and not defend etc.
Well, there's just no accounting for that, except that some myths need to be exposed and shamed for what they really are.
The thing to remember about Bolts is he & SOS have brought in a lot of youth. Yes, there's experienced talent leading the way, but there's a lot of kids learning together at once. It's very difficult to compare the current team with any of our previous teams when they're in very different parts of the lifecycle. If their mind is on the prize they'll be planning for how we are going to be in the next 1 - 5 years. It's where we end up that matters. I have some faith in them, but I'm a pretty trusting kinda guy.
The thing to remember about Bolts is he & SOS have brought in a lot of youth. Yes, there's experienced talent leading the way, but there's a lot of kids learning together at once. It's very difficult to compare the current team with any of our previous teams when they're in very different parts of the lifecycle. If their mind is on the prize they'll be planning for how we are going to be in the next 1 - 5 years. It's where we end up that matters. I have some faith in them, but I'm a pretty trusting kinda guy.
That's a fair post. I can certainly accept that, but our back 6 are not kids as such - no doubt a couple of them are young. No doubt the mids and the forwards have plenty who got out of nappies five minutes ago.
This thread has strayed so far from its origins............however, if I may be excused a little more misdirection :
have a brief look at where we sat for points conceded over the last few seasons (obviously, higher up is worse) :
2012 - 10th
2013 - 10th
2014 - 5th
2015 - 1st
2016 - 9th
2017 (to date) - 9th
To me, Bolton has almost brought us full circle, and we now have a defensive record comparable to Ratten's last season. Yet under Bolton, we are now seen as a tight defensive unit etc., things are looking up etc, yet under Ratts we were a basket case that leaked goals, could only attack and not defend etc.
Well, there's just no accounting for that, except that some myths need to be exposed and shamed for what they really are.
to be fair to bolton, he doesn't have judd, garlett, betts (or bootsma)at his disposal.
This thread has strayed so far from its origins............however, if I may be excused a little more misdirection :
have a brief look at where we sat for points conceded over the last few seasons (obviously, higher up is worse) :
2012 - 10th
2013 - 10th
2014 - 5th
2015 - 1st
2016 - 9th
2017 (to date) - 9th
To me, Bolton has almost brought us full circle, and we now have a defensive record comparable to Ratten's last season. Yet under Bolton, we are now seen as a tight defensive unit etc., things are looking up etc, yet under Ratts we were a basket case that leaked goals, could only attack and not defend etc.
Well, there's just no accounting for that, except that some myths need to be exposed and shamed for what they really are.
Surely you are joking.
You are trying to compare those two teams?
One was favourite to win a flag, the other was favourite to win a spoon.
It is no myth, our defensive pressure under ratten was poor.
Surely you are joking.
You are trying to compare those two teams?
One was favourite to win a flag, the other was favourite to win a spoon.
It is no myth, our defensive pressure under ratten was poor.
Points conceded is one of several factors that get considered when looking at team defense, but it is IMO, by far the most important factor. You can have plenty of rebounds off the HBF, plenty of intercept marks, plenty of tackles, pressure acts etc. All will mean jack s h i t if you leak goals.
Bolton has sacrificed our attacking game in order to shore up the defense. That sacrifice has occurred both in terms of recruiting and also in terms of game plan, which essentially revolves around flooding, spare man back, parking the bus etc. This mitigates against any real attacking moves, and is one reason why we get run over in final quarters - players are too stuffed playing a taxing game plan. Of course, the relative youth of some of our troops plays a part as well. I expect that as they get older and more experienced, the last quarter fade outs will hopefully cease.
The point I make is completely valid - you can't pot one coach for being poor defensively, when his record is more than comparable to that of a defense first coach.
the last quarter 'fade outs' are more a function of having to play catch up footy. And I think it's more mental than physical.....
We still have that woeful quarter (or even part of a quarter) where we concede 4-6 goals way too easily and thereafter we're behind the 8-ball.
There is a fairly significant difference Paul and that is that under Ratten the issue was that once the ball was in our defensive half we seemed vulnerable. Under Bolton we have had a team such as GWS bombarding us, but they have backed their structures and held strong.
Our teams under Park and the great West Coast teams under Mick were defensive greats. If you are a team that is very hard to score against it makes sense you need to score less to win. If our team does hone their defensive skills at this time that we are (at times) seemingly under some fairly relentless pressure then it should be that as the rest of the team continues to evolve and we take greater possession and greater control of the game that we should be scored against even less.
If doesn't always work and we will get some bad blowouts along the way Richmond and Port both scored over 130 points against us and that is ugly as hell, but then we have managed to restrict GWS and Adelaide to a combined total of 160 points and gone 1/2 in those games.
Perhaps take a look back to 2015 where we had 107 points against us as an average or even 2014. In those years we were actually trying to play a defensive game plan, but getting picked apart easily.
The difference with Bolts is that he has come in with a lot of young kids and he is teaching them defensive structures that are working. If we open the game up to please fans, then we essentially need to get rid of the coach as we are saying this doesn't work and I can't see any metric which suggests Bolton isn't working. The whole philosophy is on pressure it is on putting the team ahead of personal glory and running free ahead of the ball.
Honestly everyone needs to sit tight. We have blooded so many young players in the last 2 years and are infinitely harder to play against than we were. With that being a stated aim... then surely it means the club is on the path it set out on.
MIO, I don't agree with your first paragraph, but the rest is all a-o-k to me.
I understand where Bolts is coming from - he's the man in charge, this is his way of doing things, then so be it.
My concern is where we go from here. Being hard to score against is one thing - winning games is quite another. in 2016, we were 9th for points conceded, 17th for points scored, 14th overall. At this point in season 2017, we are again 9th for points conceded, last for points scored, 16th overall. Is this stagnation, or even slightly backward movement, a necessary part of the evolutionary process, or have we missed something along the way ? Is it simply down to youth, or is there more to it ?
As I said, I'll be watching with great interest to see how it all pans out. Hopefully Bolton really smashes it.
These past and present comparisons are fraught with danger, the game has changed so much since 2010 it's almost like watching a different sport! So, I'm not sure there is a great relevance to these comparisons.
These past and present comparisons are fraught with danger, the game has changed so much since 2010 it's almost like watching a different sport! So, I'm not sure there is a great relevance to these comparisons.
None at all, especially when comparing a top team against a bottom team.
It has zero relevance
Historical comparisons give pause for thought, cut through all sorts of myth making and pointless platitudes, and help ensure that past mistakes are not repeated. How much of this site is historical comparison, of coaches, players, teams, supporters ?
One day I might retire to a sanitarium in the Pyrenees and take up bilboquet, but not today.
Bolton has sacrificed our attacking game in order to shore up the defense. That sacrifice has occurred both in terms of recruiting and also in terms of game plan, which essentially revolves around flooding, spare man back, parking the bus etc. This mitigates against any real attacking moves, and is one reason why we get run over in final quarters - players are too stuffed playing a taxing game plan. Of course, the relative youth of some of our troops plays a part as well. I expect that as they get older and more experienced, the last quarter fade outs will hopefully cease.
The point I make is completely valid - you can't pot one coach for being poor defensively, when his record is more than comparable to that of a defense first coach.
you seem to neglect available cattle to the respective coaches. Bolton coaches to the lists strengths. If He didnt play with spinners off half back, we'd be annihilated .
Like i said, to be fair. Bolton doesn't have the talent of waite, betts and garlett at his disposal. Even only Betts in today's line up would have us entrenched in the 8. Im not worried, as i believe it will come and when it does, it will be sustained
you seem to neglect available cattle to the respective coaches. Bolton coaches to the lists strengths. If He didnt play with spinners off half back, we'd be annihilated .
Like i said, to be fair. Bolton doesn't have the talent of waite, betts and garlett at his disposal. Even only Betts in today's line up would have us entrenched in the 8. Im not worried, as i believe it will come and when it does, it will be sustained
Spinners or Spitters?
I think its the latter.
you seem to neglect available cattle to the respective coaches. Bolton coaches to the lists strengths. If He didnt play with spinners off half back, we'd be annihilated .
Like i said, to be fair. Bolton doesn't have the talent of waite, betts and garlett at his disposal. Even only Betts in today's line up would have us entrenched in the 8. Im not worried, as i believe it will come and when it does, it will be sustained
We are 2nd last for forward entries last time I checked......Betts, Jeffy and Waite would be going cold waiting for the ball...
Our midfield is a tad overrated...
We are 2nd last for forward entries last time I checked......Betts, Jeffy and Waite would be going cold waiting for the ball...
Our midfield is a tad overrated...
At this writing, we're equal last with Brisvegas for I50's, and 9th for conceded I50's.
you seem to neglect available cattle to the respective coaches. Bolton coaches to the lists strengths. If He didnt play with spinners off half back, we'd be annihilated .
Like i said, to be fair. Bolton doesn't have the talent of waite, betts and garlett at his disposal. Even only Betts in today's line up would have us entrenched in the 8. Im not worried, as i believe it will come and when it does, it will be sustained
I think we would all agree that cattle does play a part - but from what I can tell, there's more to it than that.
Whilst I was looking at the stats, a few others that piqued my interest :
1st for kicks
last for handballs
2nd for marks
6th for tackles
last for goals
last for behinds
1st for clangers (i.e the least in the comp)
We are 2nd last for forward entries last time I checked......Betts, Jeffy and Waite would be going cold waiting for the ball...
Our midfield is a tad overrated...
It's funny - I'd say Kreuzer and Gibbs are almost on AA pace and Cripps is going well. Murphy isn't going badly either.
So how is our midfield so underpowered? I guess you've got to look at the depth midfielders and the wings and flanks where we're definitely light on for real top end quality.
It's funny - I'd say Kreuzer and Gibbs are almost on AA pace and Cripps is going well. Murphy isn't going badly either.
So how is our midfield so underpowered? I guess you've got to look at the depth midfielders and the wings and flanks where we're definitely light on for real top end quality.
Our midfield gets plenty of the footy but the question would be where do they get the footy? and one of our major problems is the amount of ball the opposition mids are getting...
Ed Curnow aside we dont really man up the opposing mids very well...the Crouch boys had the ball 20 plus times between them in the last quarter vs the Crows..
No use our blokes getting 30 possies a game when the opposition are doing the same and using it better.....
It's funny - I'd say Kreuzer and Gibbs are almost on AA pace and Cripps is going well. Murphy isn't going badly either.
So how is our midfield so underpowered? I guess you've got to look at the depth midfielders and the wings and flanks where we're definitely light on for real top end quality.
Kreuzer, Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps are right up there and Ed Curnow is pretty good. However, the quality drops away after that. When the second tier midfielders/small forwards struggle to get 40 possessions between them, the added pressure on our first tier players is enormous. I think that many folk fail to appreciate how hard Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps have to work, and it would be an awful lot harder without Kreuzer's second and third efforts.
Kreuzer, Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps are right up there and Ed Curnow is pretty good. However, the quality drops away after that. When the second tier midfielders/small forwards struggle to get 40 possessions between them, the added pressure on our first tier players is enormous. I think that many folk fail to appreciate how hard Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps have to work, and it would be an awful lot harder without Kreuzer's second and third efforts.
Spot on DJC.