Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: laj on March 26, 2020, 03:40:17 pm

Title: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: laj on March 26, 2020, 03:40:17 pm
Northern Blues aligmment finished.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-forced-to-end-northern-blues-alignment-due-to-budget-cuts-20200326-p54e8h.html
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on March 26, 2020, 03:43:52 pm
This doesn't make sense at all, unless we are thinking of a Carlton VFL team in the future!
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: kruddler on March 26, 2020, 03:58:17 pm
https://www.afl.com.au/news/390179/carlton-northern-blues-split-as-covid-shutdown-wreaks-havoc
Quote
The club now appears likely to move to a standalone VFL side when state-leagues resume competition, which is not expected until May 31 at the earliest.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: Navy Maven on March 26, 2020, 04:09:09 pm
Honestly, as terrible as this is for all associated with the Northern Blues, this could actually be the best thing to come out of this fiasco for the club. A long overdue move, just a shame it’s had to come under these circumstances.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: laj on March 26, 2020, 04:13:43 pm
Supported Preston in the VFA so a pity to see them now cease to exist. Anyway, Carlton is a pretty good replacement!
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: Professer E on March 26, 2020, 04:30:19 pm
Also having history with Preston, I'm not sure what this will mean for this grand old club.  Once again the Northern suburbs cop it.

If the rumours of a standalone club in the VFL/A/whateveritscalled are true,  where the heck are we going to get enough players to field a competitive side at that level?  Preston can strip the knights and the old  DVFL, but Carlton has a limited list.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on March 26, 2020, 04:31:03 pm
Rumors of lots of stuff going down behind the scenes, it looks like this interruption is going to be the catalyst or excuse for all sorts of changes to the game whether we like them or not, maybe it will be quite an unfamiliar game when it returns at least in the way it's managed, coached and traded.

Seems a lot of it isn't just about COVID-19 but the AFLs desire to reduce the costs of being an AFL club making them all more profitable. One thing is players might get their wish for the shorter games they have been pushing for, but at significantly lower wage.

My dad always said, be careful what you wish for!

Other things being floated, extended lists, reserves/unders competition(Shorter games with a curtain raiser!), more player trades, reduced coaches/runners/trainers, sub-contract players or even full free agency, etc., etc..

It sounds like some clubs are asking for a setup that allows players to be freely traded from lower leagues into the AFL mid-season, whenever, like a feeder competition that is outside the draft. In much the same way Premier League team might freely trade for a player from a lower division.

There are rumors that two Melbourne club's are borderline on going to the wall, to potentially be relocated to Tassie and NT.

One of the most radical proposals relates to the draw, they are talking about clustering fixtures so that when club's travel interstate they complete a host of games before returning to greatly reduce travel. To do this the AFL has to commit to decentralized / shared facilities. For example we go to Perth, stay there and play Freo and Wet Toast in consecutive rounds then return. Apparently this slashes the amount of overall travel.

I wonder how badly we are hurting given that Pokies, even if they eventually re-open, are now as palatable as toxic waste dumps?
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2020, 04:49:23 pm
Supported Preston in the VFA so a pity to see them now cease to exist. Anyway, Carlton is a pretty good replacement!

Ditto, nothing like watching Len Clark, Peter Weightman, David Dickson etc doing their thing in Red...as NavyM  suggested this might lead to something better long term and I have always been a fan of a standalone Blues lineup in the VFL.
Bit sad to see Fraser and other's lose jobs, these are tough times and hope they can find some other footy employment when things settle.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: kruddler on March 26, 2020, 06:50:39 pm
Rumors of lots of stuff going down behind the scenes, it looks like this interruption is going to be the catalyst or excuse for all sorts of changes to the game whether we like them or not, maybe it will be quite an unfamiliar game when it returns at least in the way it's managed, coached and traded.

Seems a lot of it isn't just about COVID-19 but the AFLs desire to reduce the costs of being an AFL club making them all more profitable. One thing is players might get their wish for the shorter games they have been pushing for, but at significantly lower wage.

My dad always said, be careful what you wish for!

Other things being floated, extended lists, reserves/unders competition(Shorter games with a curtain raiser!), more player trades, reduced coaches/runners/trainers, sub-contract players or even full free agency, etc., etc..

It sounds like some clubs are asking for a setup that allows players to be freely traded from lower leagues into the AFL mid-season, whenever, like a feeder competition that is outside the draft. In much the same way Premier League team might freely trade for a player from a lower division.

There are rumors that two Melbourne club's are borderline on going to the wall, to potentially be relocated to Tassie and NT.

One of the most radical proposals relates to the draw, they are talking about clustering fixtures so that when club's travel interstate they complete a host of games before returning to greatly reduce travel. To do this the AFL has to commit to decentralized / shared facilities. For example we go to Perth, stay there and play Freo and Wet Toast in consecutive rounds then return. Apparently this slashes the amount of overall travel.

I wonder how badly we are hurting given that Pokies, even if they eventually re-open, are now as palatable as toxic waste dumps?

Not sure i like the double-up games as an option. Unless you do that every year (which equates to WAY more travel) there would be years where you don't travel to a state at all. The whole thing is counter-productive to what the AFL has been trying to achieve - each team in each state, each year.

As for the changing of lists....
Something i've been pushing for a long time is more freedom with lists, just like the NFL.
A player gets injured, he goes onto a list - Another player comes on immediately.
A player has mental health issues, he goes onto another list - A player comes on immediately.
A player not performing up to standard, sack him - a replacement player comes on immediately, who you can sack 2 days later if you wish.
Have injuries to your entire ruck list, add 2 rucks. They come back, sack those 2 rucks.

Keep the same amount of list sizes that you do now, but don't have them fixed at ANY POINT in the season. That way you ALWAYS have cover for injuries, suspensions, illness, bad luck.

Of course, alternatively....
You bring back the reserves (for all) and extend the senior list sizes to cover both and allow your reserves to 'top up' as required.


As for which teams are left.
If you don't trim the fat now, you never will.
Saints? -> Tassie. = Southern Saints
Kangas? -> NT = Northern Kangaroos
Dogs -> WA = Western Bulldogs

That will leave us with....
2xQLD
2xNSW
2xSA
3xWA - AFL see a 3rd team in WA as a viable option
1xNT
1xTassie
7xVIC (6 melb + 1 geel)

That will leave the 'big 4' and Dees+Hawks. As the melbourne teams, which are clearly the most successful of all the melbourne teams. Keeping the majority of the history in tact.

I think thats a much more sustainable model.
In the future we can add another SA team, and wherever else the game is growing the most can get the 20th team. Fixturing then becomes a lot easier.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: crashlander on March 26, 2020, 07:11:05 pm
What a mess! It is one thing to 'end the alignment', but it is another to destroy the structure of an existing team.
We really need an independent 2nds team in the future, but to bee forced into a divorce like this is not the way it should happen.

I wonder what happens now?
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: capcom on March 26, 2020, 07:38:19 pm
Ditto, nothing like watching Len Clark, Peter Weightman, David Dickson etc doing their thing in Red...as NavyM  suggested this might lead to something better long term and I have always been a fan of a standalone Blues lineup in the VFL.
Bit sad to see Fraser and other's lose jobs, these are tough times and hope they can find some other footy employment when things settle.

Ray Shaw, Doc Reid ... still have my player worn bullants jumper from 1980.  To me it's priceless
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2020, 07:37:19 am
One of a raft of changes coming up due to the CV crisis, list numbers, coaching numbers (soft cap reduction), admin staff numbers (recruiting will be one of the hardest hit). As for the game, the 16 min qtrs will be here to stay.  
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on March 27, 2020, 08:18:54 am
One of a raft of changes coming up due to the CV crisis, list numbers, coaching numbers (soft cap reduction), admin staff numbers (recruiting will be one of the hardest hit). As for the game, the 16 min qtrs will be here to stay. 
In my opinion that is going to have a huge effect on drafting and team tactics, slower players, guys who battle on with strength, power and endurance are going to be greatly disadvantaged. These are guys who regularly come good towards the end of quarters like Cripps and Pendlebury.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2020, 10:04:54 am
In my opinion that is going to have a huge effect on drafting and team tactics, slower players, guys who battle on with strength, power and endurance are going to be greatly disadvantaged. These are guys who regularly come good towards the end of quarters like Cripps and Pendlebury.
Its a return to the good old days (thank fark). Was listening to Ross Lyon talk about a recent coaching experience, he talked about when he coached the International Rules team, he said there was him, Clarkson (I think) and one ther coach and one IT guy. Thats it. He reckons they all commented about how much purer it was. Know I bet you will all moan and groan but I 110% agree with this. All we have done is copied the NFL (utterly crape game for mine) model for coaching numbers, the game is none the better IMHO.

As for drafting players with big tanks, atheletic abilities but cant kick a footy to save themselves, we are a prime example of this.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on March 27, 2020, 11:44:00 am
Its a return to the good old days (thank fark). Was listening to Ross Lyon talk about a recent coaching experience, he talked about when he coached the International Rules team, he said there was him, Clarkson (I think) and one ther coach and one IT guy. Thats it. He reckons they all commented about how much purer it was. Know I bet you will all moan and groan but I 110% agree with this. All we have done is copied the NFL (utterly crape game for mine) model for coaching numbers, the game is none the better IMHO.

As for drafting players with big tanks, atheletic abilities but cant kick a footy to save themselves, we are a prime example of this.
 
Firstly, I think we are talking about two different problems, the number of coaches is a separate issue to the shorter quarters;

On the coaches, these famous photographs have been floating around for a while, more coaches than team!
(https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/Images/AM-6788_Main_1024x315_a1.jpg)
(https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/Images/AM%206788_Main_1024x315_2.jpg)
Anybody who can't see the above problem must be blind, more coaches than players!

I wonder how many coaches would fair if you remove this ridiculous support system, it's not infeasible that some high end coaches might be better at utilizing assistant coaches than they are at actually coaching players.

On the shortening of the quarters and the players, the problem is strength and power players are disadvantaged because fatigue won't set in with enough of the quarter left. Guys like Cripps and Pendlebury will be devalued because the quarter is over before their main strength kicks in, it's similar to the old adage that taller players don't get shorter when legs get tired but if the quarter ends before the legs get tired!

Pendlebury and Cripps need more game time so that they can make use of their skills instead of chasing blokes they cannot catch.

It's the current rotation system with shorter quarters that allows a bloke like Prestia to dominate a Cripps. Short quarters, fresh legs, lots of interchange and video MRP would leave Diesel a spud! That is not the football I want to watch, I want the guys like Diesel, Sam Mitchell, Cripps, etc., etc., to star, blokes who need lots of physical contests!
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: capcom on March 27, 2020, 12:13:49 pm
The number of "coaches" is past the point of absurd and diminishes the authority of the senior guy .... it resembles the growth in public service do nothing paper shufflers.

Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: DJC on March 27, 2020, 01:12:15 pm
A sad demise of a VFA powerhouse.  The local derbies at Bell or Cramer Streets were always good contests, regardless of ladder positions.

I was less on edge watching the derby when it was at the City Oval in Bell Street  ::)
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on March 27, 2020, 02:12:58 pm
The number of "coaches" is past the point of absurd and diminishes the authority of the senior guy .... it resembles the growth in public service do nothing paper shufflers.
Or, with so many to spare, they can be used as falls guys taking the blame for your own ineptitude!
(https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5e7506069c91c70009797042/3:2/w_1998,h_1332,c_limit/donaldtrumppeteralexander.jpg)
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: kruddler on March 27, 2020, 07:23:25 pm
Its a return to the good old days (thank fark). Was listening to Ross Lyon talk about a recent coaching experience, he talked about when he coached the International Rules team, he said there was him, Clarkson (I think) and one ther coach and one IT guy. Thats it. He reckons they all commented about how much purer it was. Know I bet you will all moan and groan but I 110% agree with this. All we have done is copied the NFL (utterly crape game for mine) model for coaching numbers, the game is none the better IMHO.

As for drafting players with big tanks, atheletic abilities but cant kick a footy to save themselves, we are a prime example of this.


OFFENSE
Offensive coordinator
Quarterbacks coach
Running backs coach
TIght end coach
Wide receiver coach
Offensive line coach
DEFENSE
Defensive line coach
Linebackers coach
Defensive backs coach
SPECIAL TEAMS
Special teams coach

The NFL is different because they have positional coaches. As each position needs to be taught a completely different set of skills to another one.
Some blokes will touch it 99% of all plays they are on the ground
Some blokes will never touch a football in their whole career.
Some blokes the ball will only ever touch their hands.
Some blokes the ball will only ever touch their foot
Some blokes will never lay a tackle in their career
Some blokes will have body contact on every play of their career


All that being said....the NFL teams have 50 or so players suited up ready to get on the field on a moments notice....
...and they STILL only have 15 'coaches' on average.


So they need their coaches, we don't....and we still have more coaches/analysts and yes man.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: laj on March 28, 2020, 12:13:37 pm
Ray Shaw, Doc Reid ... still have my player worn bullants jumper from 1980.  To me it's priceless
Yes, even managed to barrack for Ray Shaw, that was tough work for a while but I got there...haha.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2020, 12:23:04 pm
Yes, even managed to barrack for Ray Shaw, that was tough work for a while but I got there...haha.

Laj, he is a really nice bloke actually, even today
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on March 28, 2020, 12:35:05 pm
Laj, he is a really nice bloke actually, even today
Agreed, Ray's a nice guy, I've had a bit of contact with him years ago through the Unders.

Unfortunately I can't say as much about one of his brothers, but you'd never hear or read Ray stating something like that about anybody, he's just too nice, sometimes too nice for his own good a few bastards have taken advantage of that in the past!
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: laj on March 28, 2020, 05:27:22 pm
Laj, he is a really nice bloke actually, even today

Must've been the Collingwood thing, creates bad perceptions...haha.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: PaulP on April 06, 2020, 01:21:23 pm
So, at this writing, we are the only club without a VFL connection, either affiliate or standalone. Interesting to see where this all ends up.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on April 06, 2020, 01:34:32 pm
So, at this writing, we are the only club without a VFL connection, either affiliate or standalone. Interesting to see where this all ends up.
 PaulP, the swiftness of this decision must to some degree expose some of our internal yet undisclosed priorities.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: PaulP on April 06, 2020, 01:43:16 pm
PaulP, the swiftness of this decision must to some degree expose some of our internal yet undisclosed priorities.

I've got no doubt that Liddle is a fast decision maker. Clearly he (and maybe others) want a standalone team, but just like the Bolton decision, he seems to make up his mind and then quickly (and impulsively IMO) seizes an opportunity and goes for the throat. Whether that makes him a good decision maker remains to be seen.

I feel sorry for the Preston/Northern Bullants/Blues. They seem to have paid a very high price for their association with us. And apart from a short piece here and there on the day of the announcement, not a peep from anyone in the AFL about the demise of a 130 year old club. I can't even find anything on the CFC website. Maybe it's buried in a dark corner somewhere.

EDIT : there are a couple of short pieces towards the bottom of the main CFC page.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: Hubba on April 06, 2020, 02:43:48 pm
Why can't Preston continue in their own rite like Coburg did when first Fitzroy and the Richmond abandoned them or like Port Melbourne did when North dropped them ?  I'm sure the people connected to Preston for the last 130 years will fight for the clubs survival.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: PaulP on April 06, 2020, 03:04:23 pm
Why can't Preston continue in their own rite like Coburg did when first Fitzroy and the Richmond abandoned them or like Port Melbourne did when North dropped them ?  I'm sure the people connected to Preston for the last 130 years will fight for the clubs survival.

I wish I knew the answer, because it's a fair question IMO.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on April 06, 2020, 03:42:45 pm
I wish I knew the answer, because it's a fair question IMO.
I've heard Preston were broke, and were only still alive due to being underwritten by Carlton.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: PaulP on April 06, 2020, 03:51:15 pm
I've heard Preston were broke, and were only still alive due to being underwritten by Carlton.

That would certainly seem like the most likely explanation. I'm wondering what the formal and structural mechanisms would be to "transform" an affiliate club to a stand alone, assuming it's possible ? Liddle has stated they want a standalone team, but they already had a seconds team, i.e the Bullies. Why does Carlton have to recreate from scratch what was, in a fashion, under their noses ?
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: Baggers on April 06, 2020, 05:23:05 pm
PaulP, the swiftness of this decision must to some degree expose some of our internal yet undisclosed priorities.

I'm betting the Preston perilous financial situation was straining the CFC coffers and when the virus struck it became irretrievable, from a $s perspective.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: PaulP on April 06, 2020, 05:59:59 pm
I'm betting the Preston perilous financial situation was straining the CFC coffers and when the virus struck it became irretrievable, from a $s perspective.

I'd like to know more, but information is hard to come by. According to Wikipedia, the license fee for a standalone club is much higher than for an affiliate. So that would be an extra cost for Liddle. Maybe ticket sales, merchandising etc. stays with the affiliate, so the AFL club loses out in this respect.

Sigh. *Scratching head*
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: kruddler on April 06, 2020, 07:43:02 pm
I'd like to know more, but information is hard to come by. According to Wikipedia, the license fee for a standalone club is much higher than for an affiliate. So that would be an extra cost for Liddle. Maybe ticket sales, merchandising etc. stays with the affiliate, so the AFL club loses out in this respect.

Sigh. *Scratching head*
The NBs were basically Carlton reserves.....but with a few differences which meant it cost us less money (license fees) and kept the (preston) locals happy.

Yeah, we no longer have a team, and yes Preston is 99.9% officially dead.

However, the whole competition as we know it will never look the same beyond this year.
I can't see any VFL matches getting played this year, so that affiliation (or lack of) means nothing now.

The AFL will use this to make big changes across the competition. From the fixture, to the lower leagues, to the list sizes, to the U18's comp.....possibly the womens while they are at it.

My prediction?
- Next year list sizes will be reduced to 35.
- There will be an AFL reserves competition involving all 18 teams.
- There will be a supplementary list of sorts where clubs can have players which are capable of being promoted to cover for injuries at ANY given point in the season. Players can be added, delisted, re-added from that list throughout the year.
- This eliminates the need for a mid-season draft as you can add players at any point as required from your supplementary list.
- There will be an extended finals series which includes a 'wild card' week to include teams who finish 9th and 10th.

.....and plenty more changes to occur
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: LP on April 07, 2020, 07:39:49 am
Hopefully with In-Game Subs.
Title: Re: Carlton End Alignment With Northern Blues.
Post by: PaulP on April 08, 2020, 10:15:30 am
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/northern-blues-died-with-a-whimper-but-hope-remains-preston-could-return-20200405-p54h84.html