I think more Tom McDonald than Tom Lynch, we would have to sell the farm for Lynch - ask yourself; what do we actually need? We think McKay will make it but needs time, then we really need some support and a filler who can be effective elsewhere longer term. Patton from GWS gets mentioned alot, I think he can only really play one position, similarly Boyd from the Dogs. There are Tom McDonald types out there on club lists or in the state leagues that could be effective.
What is the measure of effective? Able to contribute 1 - 2 goals per game? Able to pinch hit in the ruck? Perhaps able to swing back in defence?
Its why we are in no hurry to ditch Levi.
He is bad enough for them to go past him the second they are truly 4 quarter competitive prospects at AFL level, but strong enough to draw a couple of players to him and help give the kids some room in our forwardline.
The shame in it, is that no one has gone past him yet. Even Weitering who is dubbed as able to play forward and back, is thus far proving not to be as effective a forward as Levi.
We need to stop thinking of Levi teaching the youngsters.
He's not there to show them anything, he's there to help give them some room to grow.
Not all players are leaders and I would wager that the nominated leader we have in our forwardline is Matthew Wright, and I am more than happy with that scenario.
Could someone please explain to me all the comments about "Harry's not ready", "... needs more time", etc.
Is he injured? Is he immature for his age? Needs more time for what? We drafted him at pick 10. When I open my 2016 Carlton Season Guide there's a 2 page spread with McKay one one side and Weitering on the other. Why was Weits deemed ready for R1 yet a full 2 years later we're still waiting for Harry? He's taller and heavier than Weitering.
Most would agree you can throw a blanket over the first 10 picks in a draft - maybe even the first 20 - and be assured of getting quality.
Knowing Carlton and our recent history of stellar recruiting and player development , what's the bet we made the wrong call and should have played Harry while holding Weits back.
EDIT: Probably just exposed my own ignorance after realising we're talking about a future ruckman. Still, if he's fit, he should have played on Saturday. I thought he showed enough in the 2 games he played towards then end of last year, but I guess that's what this thread is all about.
Its ok.
The question is valid, but somehow I think the answer is in Weitering's formline. He has shown a little bit, and been worked out, but isn't physically mature enough to endure it long term and it is now stalling his progress and making it longer.
Its one thing to fast track development, its another to play kids before they are ready to compete.
Have a look at Polson. Miles off the pace, and hes a small who should be on pace. He has played two uninspiring AFL games.
Charlie Curnow was the one who was a super athlete, who has come on the best of that draft crop, but he was rumoured to be better able to compete from day one, and has really gone from strength to strength. Aside from his early set back with glandular fever, he has also had a fairly injury free run at it unlike both Weitering and Mckay.
Its hard to say.
Realistically, only these boys can tell you how they feel.
I know this stat exists, because Champion Data record it and the media report on it from time to time for various players.
I want to know how many times we went to Casboult for that goal return, and how that compares to any other AFL forward?
Irrespective, the stats are going to include times we went to him and probably shouldn't have because he was double teamed and there were free men elsewhere (which is my biggest gripe).
No one will leave Casboult free to mind McKay (initially).
He's not that good but he's good enough to be the difference between winning and losing.
It's also worth noting that he kicks straighter when he doesn't have to take a big contested mark.
We could even instruct him to pass it off every time he takes a mark and that would be enough to free up McKay to score (who's not that great a kick either I might add).
Our backline is looking extremely unsettled without Docherty.
We need to get back as many players who have played together quick smart because our current defensive unit is showing a lack of cohesion that results in lots of instability.
Sometimes it's not about what an individual can do himself but rather the effect on those around him.
Yep Most of them are no longer playing. But the idea behind a rebuild is to create a better combination. If you use that 2015 side as your baseline (it's when we first suggested we'd rebuild)... are we back to where we started or do we still have a way to go? I don't think we are yet...I'll concede we might have a foundation to quickly improve....however there's also a chance many of that group that played this weekend won't make it.
We look to have assembled a decent list. We still need the longer term replacements for our next batch of senior players to retire (Murphy, Ed Curnow, Rowe, acos, Wright, Casboult, Kreuzer) and some short term replacements for the other retirees like Simpson which all points to us not coming good until weitering, Cripps, Charlie Curnow are all 100 game players unless we really are a club in a hurry...
IMHO we gain nothing by dropping the blokes we need to kick on for us like Silvagni. We need these guys to become extremely familiar with each other and the nuances on how each other plays pronto.
Yes, I watched the 21 year old in his second ever game play as the undersized lead up forward role against a back line with about 700 games and at least two full seasons of experience.
I also heard the commentators discuss how much Gowers had improved since arriving at the Dogs.
Levi was drafted 9 years ago, he was a year older than Gowers when he debuted!
If Gowers makes it into his 9th or 10th season we can make an accurate relative judgement, but at the moment game for game he's a year ahead of Casboult on age and has 5 scoring attempts compared to Casboult's 2 after just 2 games!
Billy "The Kid" Gowers is about 6" shorter and 15kg lighter than Casboult but is playing the same basic team role!
Why would you even mention Casboult, are you trying to rub in how bad he really is?
13 possessions, 1.4 on the scoreboard with one of them being from twenty metres out directly in front, and forget Levi he isn't competing with him for a spot it's jack Silvagni.
Gowers might make the grade but he's another one making up numbers.
Your point about us flicking players is what this was for. He and his side were rubbish.
@fly, our biggest issue is a lack of game time and experience together. Gold Coast don't have that issue where it counts.
Don't agree. This is not the 80's when you need to play 100 VFL games before your AFL debut.
Dow is going to learn a lot more from Cripps and Kruezer (when fit) in a AFL then he will in the VFL. Kerridge will offer more in the short term, but playing him and Graham stops getting games into talented kids which will benefit the team in the long run.
Look. In short our list is pox. It's really bad and unbalanced. How we started favourite against the Suns amazed me.
Have a look at our 22-26 year olds. The guys on your list that should have reached 60-100 games plus and are consistent in thier output.
Casboult, Levi Jones, Liam Phillips, Andrew Shaw, Matt (R) Mullett, Aaron O'Shea, Cameron Lamb, Jed Kerridge, Sam Docherty, Sam Graham, Nicholas Plowman, Lachlan Byrne, Ciaran Cripps, Patrick Lang, Darcy
Cripps and ? Plowman. Doc of course. No need to back the truck over the wasted draft picks, but our core is made up of recycled players and very little talent. This in the group that should be stepping up, not Dow, SPS, Fisher, Polson and Cunningham who should be showing signs of improvement.
The Suns.
Hall, Aaron Thompson, Rory May, Steven Nicholls, Tom Lyons, Jarryd Day, Sam Witts, Jarrod Lynch, Tom Swallow, David Young, Aaron Sexton, Alex Lemmens, Sean Lonergan, Jesse Martin, Jack Leslie, Jack Holman, Nicholas (R) Willis, Mackenzie (R) Kolodjashnij, Kade Miller, Touk Weller, Lachlan
Thanks for making this point. Twenty of the team that beat us yesterday are battle hardened players where we are relying on twenty to fourth gamers backed up by a bunch of retreads who were given the flick essentially.
Some of them might come good, others won't.
@LP did you watch Gowers today he was pretty ordinary and missed a couple of set shots in Levi fashion.
Fair call. Also means we are still at least 3-4 years from being competitive?
Not competitive, but challenging for a flag. This "build" we embarked on has been about keeping us off the bottom of the ladder whilst all our players who are "not up to it" start to move on.
It gets worse. We start to lose blokes like Murphy, Simpson and the like over the next couple of years. These guys are our most able to compete players at the moment (4 quarters week in and week out for an entire season).
@EB1, put the two twenty twos that ran out yesterday next to each other and you start realising just how under rated gc are.
Swallow or cripps? Martin or Wright? Lynch or Curnow? Witts or Levi? Harbrow or Simpson? May or Jones?
If you picked one side out of both our twenty twos yesterday to play next week, Gold Coast would Have more players than us in their best 22 by two to one, because at the moment we are promising but not delivering.
@kruddler, I didn't see many who contested worse than they did the previous week, we just aren't big and strong enough yet.
, what's the bet we made the wrong call and should have played Harry while holding Weits back.
? Plowman. Doc of course. No need to back the truck over the wasted draft picks, but our core is made up of recycled players and very little talent. This in the group that should be stepping up, not Dow, SPS, Fisher, Polson and Cunningham who should be showing signs of improvement.