Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: capcom on May 29, 2021, 11:52:13 AM

Title: Tokyo 2021
Post by: capcom on May 29, 2021, 11:52:13 AM
May as well call it now.  Doubt if they'll proceed, not with 60% of their population against them.

One tough call, but it should be made quick smart.

Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: madbluboy on May 29, 2021, 01:09:46 PM
It's not a tough call.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: LP on May 29, 2021, 01:22:35 PM
For some sports and competitors there is only one opportunity to go to the Olympics spanning their whole high level career, you feel for the kid who was too young for the last Olympics and will be finished by the next!
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 29, 2021, 04:39:05 PM
WOFT
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on May 29, 2021, 05:24:26 PM
Sorry guys, I dont really understand what we are saying here.

Are we talking cancel it?

Are the Japanese people against it going ahead?

There is no reason why they cant host an olympics with no spectators.

Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 29, 2021, 06:25:08 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/18/world/asia/covid-japan-olympics-poll.html#:~:text=In%20a%20survey%20released%20on,from%20a%20survey%20in%20April.

Cant see it happening, Japan is a mess with CoVid and trying to manage and control incoming/outgoing athletes with accomodation control and testing etc would be a nightmare IMO.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: capcom on May 29, 2021, 07:40:46 PM
Sorry guys, I dont really understand what we are saying here.

Are we talking cancel it?

Yes ... I was

Are the Japanese people against it going ahead?

Yes

There is no reason why they cant host an olympics with no spectators.

Utterly Pointless don't you think ...
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on May 29, 2021, 09:04:01 PM
Utterly Pointless don't you think ...
From the POV of Japan, probably true.

From the athletes’ POV, most would be desperate to compete whether there’s a crowd or not.

Caveats:
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 03, 2021, 11:51:30 PM
Talking heads pointed out that the contract Tokyo signed with the IOC pretty much strips power from Japanese authorities. Should the Japanese decide they won’t hold the games as scheduled and the IOC opposes that move, the IOC would sue the pants off them.

Reminds me of the way the AFL was being bullied to agree to all manner of things to enable Australia to make a winning bid for the World Cup including scrapping its games for not only the duration of the World Cup but also a period before games started.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: capcom on June 04, 2021, 12:10:56 AM
I'd like to see the IOC enforce it given covid.  Japan would have much of the world on their side I'd think.  The IOC would likely crumble under the power of a global union. 

 
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on June 04, 2021, 10:33:57 AM
Talking heads pointed out that the contract Tokyo signed with the IOC pretty much strips power from Japanese authorities. Should the Japanese decide they won’t hold the games as scheduled and the IOC opposes that move, the IOC would sue the pants off them.

Reminds me of the way the AFL was being bullied to agree to all manner of things to enable Australia to make a winning bid for the World Cup including scrapping its games for not only the duration of the World Cup but also a period before games started.

I remember a time when the AFL bullied the then National Soccer League into playing a winter sport during summer.

They cant complain for a once in a 100 year event that would see a 4 week break to the competition, when their actions arguably stalled the national soccer league for 30 years.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 04, 2021, 03:14:59 PM
Bullied or outcompeted? Soccer has bullied the AFL overseas, using its popularity to block the AFL. Call the police ...
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on June 04, 2021, 08:58:19 PM
Bullied or outcompeted? Soccer has bullied the AFL overseas, using its popularity to block the AFL. Call the police ...
bullied.  C7 sports did the Hatchett job when they had the rights to both codes.  Bought the rights to the nsl and relegated it to a midnight television time slot with the afl on TV at prime time.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 04, 2021, 09:48:45 PM
As AFL games were relegated to late time slots  in Brisbane & Sydney. Of course, NRL supporters would claim that’s because NRL was far more popular than AFL in those markets so TV stations would give it pride of place. But we know better, don’t we? It was clearly a nefarious conspiracy by TV bullies to hurt the AFL. What scumbags, eh?

Wonder why the NSL didn’t just go to Channel 9 and get them to broadcast live games in prime time. Kerry Packer would have paid billions for that opportunity, surely ...
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 04, 2021, 09:56:18 PM
Now C7 is gone, why doesn’t the A-League go head-to-head with the AFL in winter? And why don’t the FTA channels fight for the rights to broadcast the summer competition. I’m guessing there are nasty bullies everywhere devoted to crushing the A-League instead of treating it as the golden goose. Or maybe Cricket Australia are the bullies. Why don’t the NBL & Cricket Australia just move their competitions to winter to help the A-League? You know it makes sense ...
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on June 05, 2021, 07:05:55 AM
Now C7 is gone, why doesn’t the A-League go head-to-head with the AFL in winter? And why don’t the FTA channels fight for the rights to broadcast the summer competition. I’m guessing there are nasty bullies everywhere devoted to crushing the A-League instead of treating it as the golden goose. Or maybe Cricket Australia are the bullies. Why don’t the NBL & Cricket Australia just move their competitions to winter to help the A-League? You know it makes sense ...

You used the word bully first.

Cop your serve and wear it.  The a league isn't the NSL.

That league is dead.  The A league might be the same code but that was the death of Australian soccer to me.

You don't like the truth, but the fact is that the world game has the world cup on during that time because of the European leagues having a short break before they ramp up again in September.  Poor AFL.   Almost got sidelined by the world cup in Australia.  Bullied.   Your words mav.  Yours.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 05, 2021, 10:32:21 AM
You might try to argue facts rather than a Trump-like conspiracy theory. Your best case of the AFL bullying the NSL is to attack C7. You might notice that the AFL has 3 letters and C7 has 1 letter and 1 number, and the letter isn’t an A or a F or a L. If C7 paid the NSL for the rights, they helped out an ailing organisation that folded under its own disorganisation.

Wasn’t it the best day when the bid to sideline the AFL with the World Cup went down in flames? It still makes me laugh. By the way, what did you think ofCraig Foster’ suggestion that the AFL should somehow send it’s best young talent to play soccer so the Socceroos could do better? His theory was that the AFL wouldn’t suffer as it would still have an even competition after all of the cream was taken away. Just love that arrogance!
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on June 05, 2021, 11:05:13 AM
You might try to argue facts rather than a Trump-like conspiracy theory. Your best case of the AFL bullying the NSL is to attack C7. You might notice that the AFL has 3 letters and C7 has 1 letter and 1 number, and the letter isn’t an A or a F or a L. If C7 paid the NSL for the rights, they helped out an ailing organisation that folded under its own disorganisation.

Wasn’t it the best day when the bid to sideline the AFL with the World Cup went down in flames? It still makes me laugh. By the way, what did you think ofCraig Foster’ suggestion that the AFL should somehow send it’s best young talent to play soccer so the Socceroos could do better? His theory was that the AFL wouldn’t suffer as it would still have an even competition after all of the cream was taken away. Just love that arrogance!

Pot calling the kettle black.  Your inability to wear any criticism is showing. 

Foster has never had my respect.  Ive always considered him second rate.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on June 05, 2021, 11:12:13 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/C7_Sport

Quote
Attempt to harm soccer   
During the trial it was revealed that C7 had purchased the rights to National Soccer League content with the intention of "suffocating" coverage of the sport to benefit the AFL (i.e., Australian rules football). This was evidenced by an email from C7 to the AFL complaining about the AFL's ingratitude.[12]

Trust me, I know what im talking about.  You share more in common with Trump than you think.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 05, 2021, 12:37:46 PM
Have you read the article footnoted in the Wikipedia page? If you do, you’ll see it doesn’t help to tie the AFL to C7.

The email it refers to is a retrospective assertion that it had helped the AFL in an unsuccessful bid to stop the AFL stripping it of the media rights. There’s no evidence that it did anything to “sufficate” soccer rather than merely giving a failing competition the level of coverage it warranted. As Masters noted, in the litigation in which the email emerged, “News Ltd's chief general counsel, Ian Philip, a member of the NRL Partnership Board, told the Federal Court last Monday he had lied to Telstra when he urged it to contribute up to $14 million to help beat a C7 bid for NRL pay TV rights”. In other words, media guys lie in order to manipulate others in negotiations. This is a truly shocking notion, isn’t it?

Nothing suggests any complicity in the suggested move. And you’d imagine if there had been, there would have been a quid pro quo arrangement to reward C7. The fact the AFL cut 7’s throat instead suggests there was nothing there.

Let’s also look at the suggestion C7 buried the NSL. As Masters notes, at the time of signing with C7 David Hill trumpeted the Channel Seven-C7 deal as an absolute lifeline for mass entertainment soccer.

Wikipedia says this of the NSL’s demise:
Quote
After the 2001 FIFA Club World Championship was cancelled, the NSL was in great turmoil. High-profile Australian players began to leave the NSL due to more enticing offers from overseas leagues.

In 1998, Soccer Australia sold the television rights for the NSL and Socceroos matches to the Seven Network in a 10-year contract that was worth $2.5 million a year. Seven bought the rights to be one of the flagships of its pay TV sport channel, C7 Sport. It also broadcast a small amount of coverage on its free-to-air network. At one point in 2000, the amount of free-to-air coverage on the NSL was only a one-hour highlights package of the NSL after midnight on Wednesdays.

In 2002, C7 Sport closed after the Seven Network lost the AFL rights and pay TV networks stopped carrying the channel. The next year, Seven severed its contract in the last week of Soccer Australia's existence. This left the NSL with no TV coverage at all until SBS picked up the rights soon after.

The consequent lack of sponsorship meant the league fell into even further decline which led to its eventual demise at the end of the 2003–04 season.
The $2.5 million a year was a lifeline for the NSL. Surely, Soccer Australia knew when signing with C7 that it was unlikely the channel with AFL rights was going to put much NSL on FTA, but Wikipedia notes it did put it on FTA to some degree. I’d say the fact Soccer Australia signed with C7 was either an act of desperation of an organisation that was already on its knees or an indication that it was deluded when it came to assessing its place in the sporting landscape (as was the NBL, as I’ll note later on).

Pay TV is content-hungry. C7 needed as much as it could get to dominate, and it was never going to cut off its own nose by warehousing NSL. Towards its demise in 2002, Wikipedia notes “C7 continued to provide its service to Optus and Austar, but its programming lineup near the end of its run was extremely weak. C7 was reduced to showing XFL games (on several weeks' delay) and live woodchopping in prime time”. After 7 lost the AFL rights in late 2000, surely it would have elevated the NSL to prime time if it thought it could put lipstick on that pig. That it didn’t tells you all you need to know, doesn’t it?

The NBL is an interesting comparison. In the 90s, it profited a lot from its association with a Channel 7. Its games played 2nd fiddle to AFL coverage but the broadcasts helped make the NBL a big drawcard. The NBL believed its own hype and decided it could become the number 1 sport by breaking away from 7. Reality then hit it in the face and it lost popularity and then collapsed. The revived NBL has been more realistic about its place in the sporting landscape.

I suggest you confine your animosity to C7 unless you find some compelling evidence. Moreover, you should blame Frank Loewe and Football Australia for killing off the NSL teams. IIRC, you were a South Melbourne Hellas fan. It was Football Australia which killed it off on the basis that it and the other power teams were too parochial to appeal to a national audience. Just as South Melbourne & Fitzroy supporters have a right to hold a grudge against the AFL, you have a right to hold a grudge against the FA.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on June 05, 2021, 03:19:50 PM
Have you read the article footnoted in the Wikipedia page? If you do, you’ll see it doesn’t help to tie the AFL to C7.

The email it refers to is a retrospective assertion that it had helped the AFL in an unsuccessful bid to stop the AFL stripping it of the media rights. There’s no evidence that it did anything to “sufficate” soccer rather than merely giving a failing competition the level of coverage it warranted. As Masters noted, in the litigation in which the email emerged, “News Ltd's chief general counsel, Ian Philip, a member of the NRL Partnership Board, told the Federal Court last Monday he had lied to Telstra when he urged it to contribute up to $14 million to help beat a C7 bid for NRL pay TV rights”. In other words, media guys lie in order to manipulate others in negotiations. This is a truly shocking notion, isn’t it?

Nothing suggests any complicity in the suggested move. And you’d imagine if there had been, there would have been a quid pro quo arrangement to reward C7. The fact the AFL cut 7’s throat instead suggests there was nothing there.

Let’s also look at the suggestion C7 buried the NSL. As Masters notes, at the time of signing with C7 David Hill trumpeted the Channel Seven-C7 deal as an absolute lifeline for mass entertainment soccer.

Wikipedia says this of the NSL’s demise:The $2.5 million a year was a lifeline for the NSL. Surely, Soccer Australia knew when signing with C7 that it was unlikely the channel with AFL rights was going to put much NSL on FTA, but Wikipedia notes it did put it on FTA to some degree. I’d say the fact Soccer Australia signed with C7 was either an act of desperation of an organisation that was already on its knees or an indication that it was deluded when it came to assessing its place in the sporting landscape (as was the NBL, as I’ll note later on).

Pay TV is content-hungry. C7 needed as much as it could get to dominate, and it was never going to cut off its own nose by warehousing NSL. Towards its demise in 2002, Wikipedia notes “C7 continued to provide its service to Optus and Austar, but its programming lineup near the end of its run was extremely weak. C7 was reduced to showing XFL games (on several weeks' delay) and live woodchopping in prime time”. After 7 lost the AFL rights in late 2000, surely it would have elevated the NSL to prime time if it thought it could put lipstick on that pig. That it didn’t tells you all you need to know, doesn’t it?

The NBL is an interesting comparison. In the 90s, it profited a lot from its association with a Channel 7. Its games played 2nd fiddle to AFL coverage but the broadcasts helped make the NBL a big drawcard. The NBL believed its own hype and decided it could become the number 1 sport by breaking away from 7. Reality then hit it in the face and it lost popularity and then collapsed. The revived NBL has been more realistic about its place in the sporting landscape.

I suggest you confine your animosity to C7 unless you find some compelling evidence. Moreover, you should blame Frank Loewe and Football Australia for killing off the NSL teams. IIRC, you were a South Melbourne Hellas fan. It was Football Australia which killed it off on the basis that it and the other power teams were too parochial to appeal to a national audience. Just as South Melbourne & Fitzroy supporters have a right to hold a grudge against the AFL, you have a right to hold a grudge against the FA.
yeah no thanks.

The point being that you asserted something against soccer and have been caught out with the inverse being true.

I expect no support on an AFL football forum for any of this and your version of events is a patchwork of absolution that doesn't fit.  The media coverage wasn't there and the game going from sbs to c7 sports relegated Australian footage to Wednesday nights at midnight.  Midnight!! 

Exactly like I told you.

This isn't creative history.  You won't find an accurate recount of events that caused the issues from tart to finish.  The fact that back in the 90's the game was regarded as one that was for Sheila's wogs, and poofters tells the story better than one written with the switch to the A league front and centre of its revisionist approach to what happened.

Find the fans and they'll tell you the story.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 05, 2021, 03:29:05 PM
I don’t accept conspiracy theories as truth. That you and others do is disappointing but given Trump’s ability to take such theories to a new level, that’s the least of my concerns.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Thryleon on June 05, 2021, 05:42:43 PM
I don’t accept conspiracy theories as truth. That you and others do is disappointing but given Trump’s ability to take such theories to a new level, that’s the least of my concerns.

Conspiracy theories....  like the world game bullying afl for the world cup?  Where's your proof?  Slinging mud.  Hypocrisies.   You're worse than a Trump.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: Mav on June 05, 2021, 06:48:35 PM
Fact. The contractual conditions banning domestic sports being played were made public (leaving aside the fact that Australia’s bid pretty much commandeered all AFL venues, making it hard to play games even in the absence of those provisions). Which, getting back to the topic at long last, emphasises the invasive nature of the contracts host cities (or countries in the case of World Cup contracts) sign. To protect major sponsors, the IOC insists the host city bans visible advertising from sponsors’ competitors. Competing events are banned. Host cities are required to prohibit or severely restrict any use of public and private transport systems that might impact upon movement of Olympic spectators and dignitaries. The contracts would kill you if they fell on your head: they’re that thick. Just about everything conceivable is in there. And that’s not even including the fringe benefits to IOC committee members.
Title: Re: Tokyo 2021
Post by: capcom on June 05, 2021, 07:02:12 PM
You'd be floored by what SOCOG put on the table for the 2000 Olympic Torch Relay.  The sheer arrogance of nobodies throwing their weight around.