Carlton Supporters Club

We are on TV. We are on Friday Night. We have lots of injuries and we were terrible last week. This is the usual formula for a shocking loss.

I had this in my head most of the night....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hNiofsR8XU

Won 4 out of the last 6, played well enough against Geelong, goal kicking lost it or at least stopped it being a cliff hanger, just the absolute shocker against North.

Win next week against Gold Coast here in Melbourne and we are either 8th or 9th barring turn ups. Just a pity we got to Adelaide to play Port the week after.

Now if we hadn't fk'ed up last week.........

If we get to 10 wins, finals or not, i'll live with that, especially after being 4-9. Just would show where we should be if we could played motivated footy most weeks. It'd be a "what might've been".

I didn't think we could do it. But, did we win it? We killed them! You beauty!

We've improved on last year! So far we have won 42.1% of our games this year, compared to 41.1% last year....lol.

Win last week and we would have been sitting in the 8. Does make last week even more disappointing. No point worrying about it now.

Jack Silvagni deserves a bloody medal for not only sticking to his assigned ruck task, especially after TDK went down, but his follow up efforts were terrific.

He got a bath in terms of the hitouts but it would be interesting to see how many of those were negated by his second efforts.

We won't win next week with Jack in the ruck, but has he stepped up! Brilliant effort from a guy who is at least 10 cm too small for his role!

Jack Silvagni deserves a bloody medal for not only sticking to his assigned ruck task, especially after TDK went down, but his follow up efforts were terrific.

Does anyone expect any different?

Nonetheless, it's makes it even more clear that DT and crew shat themselves in selections against North.

Terrific win, but....

Jack Silvagni deserves a bloody medal for not only sticking to his assigned ruck task, especially after TDK went down, but his follow up efforts were terrific.

He does! He has really found something this year. We lost the hitouts 69-12 but only the clearance 39-36, so JSOS must have competed well to at least nullify in the ruck.

I didn't think we could do it. But, did we win it? We killed them! You beauty!

The Aints were weak as piss, almost their whole team was disposing at less than 50% in the first half.

That my friends is the definition of folding under pressure, a massive choke!

Nonetheless, it's makes it even more clear that DT and crew shat themselves in selections against North.

Terrific win, but....

Shat themselves in selections????

We had no talls to choose from. What did you expect to happen?

Nobody in the media has cited the fact we went in without any recognised key forwards last week.....but thats because nobody actually looks at our games....or our injury list.

You, and us, should know better though.

We won't win next week with Jack in the ruck, but has he stepped up! Brilliant effort from a guy who is at least 10 cm too small for his role!

Should win against the Gold Coast in Melbourne. Reckon Mirkov might be getting a run next week now his knee has recovered.

Solid performance. Our best for the year.  Beat a decent outfit who we generally struggle against while losing our only ruckman for majority of the match. Really impressive win imo because of the contribution from some of the lesser lights in Dow, Honey, Williamson, Jack and can’t believe I’m saying this but even LOB.
Jack in another typical all heart performance - smart player who gives everything everytime, does the job week in and week out. Very underrated imo.
Walsh is surely AA - will finish top 3 in Brownlow.

About to sit back and have a rum. One happy blue boy.

Should win against the Gold Coast in Melbourne. Reckon Mirkov might be getting a run next week now his knee has recovered.

 
 Or McGovern, I believe he is playing VFL tomorrow.

Nonetheless, it's makes it even more clear that DT and crew shat themselves in selections against North.

Terrific win, but....

Hindsight would've played Jones forward last week then focussed on locking up the backline, similar to the way we played against Geelong. Was always going to be difficult with the side we had, just that 3rd qtr.

That's the first game this year I felt confident we'd win.

There were so many very good passages of play. Goalkicking finally decent. Solid contribution from most. Feel good Charlie had a perfect return, which the boys seemed to thrive on. We took our foot off after the game was won but didn't lose confidence when Saints had a run on.

Most impressive though:
Our pressure all over the ground
Sticking tackles
Teamwork- the WE
Toughness against the odds of injury (?umps) and coming of a poor performance
Oh. We're sweeter with Honey 🍯

Should win against the Gold Coast in Melbourne. Reckon Mirkov might be getting a run next week now his knee has recovered.

I don't think his knee has recovered has it?

He's only played a handful of aussie rules games. No chance next week.

Gov will ruck before him.

Shat themselves in selections????

We had no talls to choose from. What did you expect to happen?

Nobody in the media has cited the fact we went in without any recognised key forwards last week.....but thats because nobody actually looks at our games....or our injury list.

You, and us, should know better though.

rubbish. Brackets had been in full training for a month ++.

Charlie could have played.

Need I say more?

Ruckmen are overrated.

Does anyone expect any different?

We don't, but it's probably worth mentioning that Silvagni's set  career bests tonight in

Disposals 25
Tackles 9 and a few other stats.

rubbish. Brackets had been in full training for a month ++.

Charlie could have played.

Need I say more?

Charlie could've played, i agree.

But they've had a plan in place to get blokes fit and they don't seem to deviate from that (for fear of more injuries) despite what the team balance is doing.

Some have been critical for playing injured players (Cripps) or players who are unfit (Williams, Martin) so they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Ruckmen are overrated.

It was very interesting.

JSOS - legend.

And I'm not his biggest fan.

Very good team effort - the bottom 6 were important.

Should win against the Gold Coast in Melbourne. Reckon Mirkov might be getting a run next week now his knee has recovered.

Mirkov is out injured for the rest of the year.
Oscar McDonald / Casboult are our only possible ruck option - if they can make it back.

I don't think his knee has recovered has it?

He's only played a handful of aussie rules games. No chance next week.

Gov will ruck before him.

I heard his knee had recovered. Is he playing tomorrow? I haven't looked.

EDIT: Just read this on the Carlton site.

"We're getting him in shape to play: whether he plays this year remains to be seen."

Unlikely.

It was very interesting.

JSOS - legend.

And I'm not his biggest fan.

Very good team effort - the bottom 6 were important.

There was genuine care and intent tonight, across the board. They did exactly what was required after last weeks debacle. I am very happy for them and the coach.

Hindsight would've played Jones forward last week then focussed on locking up the backline, similar to the way we played against Geelong. Was always going to be difficult with the side we had, just that 3rd qtr.

I wrote this in the pre match thread.

Games like today are the exception not the rule.

For each one you pick yourself up for like this you're more likely to have to do this where it doesnt work.

See the numbers below.

Watched the whole game post Q1 and I just didn't see Steele as a factor?

Tom Mitchellesque?

Why hasn't Honey been playing. Clearly one of our best small forward performances for the year. Absolutely an AFL level player.

O'Brien 21 pos. including 4 goal assists (probably the best by a Carlton player this season). Ridiculous how the club has left him to rot all season.

Graham and Kemp should also be playing. Newnes and Plowman.... not so much.

There was genuine care and intent tonight, across the board. They did exactly what was required after last weeks debacle. I am very happy for them and the coach.

It was a brutal review last Monday and they responded. Good to see they responded to the performance and the coach. Never would happen with the others, bar Ratts. We'd just turn up and cop a hiding again. We often responded when Ratts gave it to them.

Why hasn't Honey been playing. Clearly one of our best small forward performances for the year. Absolutely an AFL level player.

O'Brien 21 pos. including 4 goal assists (probably the best by a Carlton player this season). Ridiculous how the club has left him to rot all season.

Graham and Kemp should also be playing. Newnes and Plowman.... not so much.

Betts and Owies have been playing pretty good footy.

It was a damned fine performance.  COMPLETE opposite of last week.

Betts and Owies have been playing pretty good footy.

Murphy? No way known Murphy should have played the last 2 games. If he plays again this year it is a farce. We are a farce. It was like playing with 17 when he was on today. Robbing a younger / better player of a game just because he's close to an arbitrary number. Couldn't care less if he finishes on 297 and nor should he. If he's not good enough it would be a hollow 300th anyway.

Murphy? No way known Murphy should have played the last 2 games. If he plays again this year it is a farce. We are a farce. It was like playing with 17 when he was on today. Robbing a younger / better player of a game just because he's close to an arbitrary number. Couldn't care less if he finishes on 297 and nor should he. If he's not good enough it would be a hollow 300th anyway.

disagree, we must get him to 300.

And I'm not a fan of Smurf....

Why hasn't Honey been playing. Clearly one of our best small forward performances for the year. Absolutely an AFL level player.

O'Brien 21 pos. including 4 goal assists (probably the best by a Carlton player this season). Ridiculous how the club has left him to rot all season.

Graham and Kemp should also be playing. Newnes and Plowman.... not so much.

🤣🤣

Why hasn't Honey been playing. Clearly one of our best small forward performances for the year. Absolutely an AFL level player.

O'Brien 21 pos. including 4 goal assists (probably the best by a Carlton player this season). Ridiculous how the club has left him to rot all season.

Graham and Kemp should also be playing. Newnes and Plowman.... not so much.

You better call Nicks manager to arrange that.

He hasn't been on the list for a few years now.  :o

Seems like the Cerra / Seton swap is on. 

Murphy? No way known Murphy should have played the last 2 games. If he plays again this year it is a farce. We are a farce. It was like playing with 17 when he was on today. Robbing a younger / better player of a game just because he's close to an arbitrary number. Couldn't care less if he finishes on 297 and nor should he. If he's not good enough it would be a hollow 300th anyway.

Ok Jeza.
So we give the few games to… who?? Who has been beating down the door for selection
And attention? Tell me….?

Seems like the Cerra / Seton swap is on. 

Wgaf.
Putting on record now. Samo is SMART with the ball. We just could not use him as such.

Ruckmen are overrated.

Fair Point, Saints won all the ruck tapouts but they amounted to nothing, Jack was more useful playing that following role until he got too tired to jump in the last. We wont get away with every week and we probably got lucky Ryder was out who is a more skilled palmer of the ball. Hats off to Jack though who battled on well all night and was a real competitor..

Fair Point, Saints won all the ruck tapouts but they amounted to nothing, Jack was more useful playing that following role until he got too tired to jump in the last. We wont get away with every week and we probably got lucky Ryder was out who is a more skilled palmer of the ball. Hats off to Jack though who battled on well all night and was a real competitor..

Point is, we virtually played without a ruckman but they divised a plan to combat it and they executed. 22 players went out and contributed irrespective of injuries.

See the numbers below.

Watched the whole game post Q1 and I just didn't see Steele as a factor?

Tom Mitchellesque?

Played on Cripps mainly who he probably beat as our man was just ok IMO, and would have Steele as Stkildas best but I wouldnt have him in the top 10 on the ground and those 36 possies didnt do much damage.

Re: Honey...tend to agree with Jezza on this one and I know ProfE is a fan as well, showed why he deserved more games tonight.
Creative to help others, strong body and can find the goals, been surprised he hasnt played more, maybe needs to learn more about the defensive aspects of the game but the seniors is where this kid will develop quicker. Like Stocker he looks the part out there and both play a good hard brand that I like.
Re: Murphy...yep doesnt deserve a game based on his form IMO and I'd prefer to see Carroll or Ramsay in but I get why he is being
played and carried through to the 300 as its a rare feat that should be celebrated in what has been an ordinary season..

SOS
25 disp
9 tackles
1 goal
6 clearances
Fair nights work

Re: Murphy...yep doesnt deserve a game based on his form IMO and I'd prefer to see Carroll or Ramsay in but I get why he is being
played and carried through to the 300 as its a rare feat that should be celebrated in what has been an ordinary season..

It is easy to see both sides of whether he should or shouldn't be selected but I was embarrassed for him tonight - unable to seriously contribute and, despite being fresher than the opposition, he couldn't get out of his own way let alone doing anything against an opponent.

Wgaf.
Putting on record now. Samo is SMART with the ball. We just could not use him as such.

Don't shoot the messenger ... it was on the C7 broadcast

LOB
21 disp at 80%
24 pressure acts
4 goal assists
6 score involvements
6 inside 50s
5 marks
2 tackles
389 m gained
He and Dow delivered some bullets tonights, well done young man.

Apart from having a forward line - the main difference between this week (and all of our poor games or parts of games) is that the players made a concerted effort to run with intensity to pressure opponents with the ball and to pressure opponents in a position to receive a hand pass - instead of trying to corral an opponent without pressuring him or cruising along and hoping the opponent trips over his boot laces (e.g. SPS). 

When the game seemed out of their reach (part way into the last term) we relaxed (maybe relapsed would be more accurate) or fatigued into a lesser intensity and the 'Aints started to deliver the ball with ease just like the Kangas did last week - most decent AFL footballers can kick to advantage if you allow them to run free.

Probably the first time I can recall LOB making a good contribution - excellent ball use (which was the story when he was drafted) but also put serious effort into restricting his opponent. 

Ditto Paddy Dow, who has discovered (or possibly rediscovered) how to deliver the ball by foot and is not getting caught with the ball like he used to - it seems that he now has the strength to break tackles and keep his feet to pass the ball by hand despite being tackled.

Maybe they both just needed to develop more slowly than your average first round draft picks.

SOS
25 disp
9 tackles
1 goal
6 clearances
Fair nights work

Don't forget his hitouts 😜

Ruckmen are overrated.

It's not ruckmen that are overrated, it's taps that are overrated! ;)

You measure good rucks by what they do one tenth of a second later. :D

How good is it to wake up after a win on a Friday night no less.

Difficult game to assess, sure we were much better than last week,  but you only play as well as the opposition let you.  That mob have all our problems - including patchy effort levels, and as a result,  they looked very average.   It's easier to look good when it's a game with far less heat in it, you've got more time to execute.  Very happy for the win and solid games from many players, just need to see it against better opposition, every week.

Football is far too much between the ears!!! Last week mentally thrown by the fact the we had no forward line and saw no reward for effort… and checked out!  This week the big target is back, Charlie returned to play the perfect decoy up forward, we kick straight in the first quarter and .. …. there you go!!!

Such a different side since the bye. And loving it.

I'm wondering if The TT has thrown out parts of his one-dimensional, offense focus strategy and replaced it with a much stronger emphasis on defense / accountability. Or was told to. Either way... it's working and he is seeing he has a group that can do defensive stuff very well. If he has changed course since the bye, and embraced change - defensive respect and focus, all credit to him.

Perhaps, also, The TT learned not to fear blooding newbies. Honey and LOB were quality contributors, dare I say it seems some good development has gone on there? Bravo O'Keefe & Power. Now to keep it up, and build further. Those early goal assists from Honey were fckn gems. The by foot delivery skills of LOB into the forward line were, in very sophisticated terms... sh1t hot.

Impressive the turnaround from last week, doubly impressive it was player driven.

SOJ proved that you need not be quick over the grass as a midfielder if you've got a high footy IQ and a ticker as big a Phar Lap.

M Kennedy has earned a new contract. His grunt work in the middle was great stuff.

Fantabulous to see Willo get a couple of sausages. I like it that he takes on opponents, yes, coupla stuff ups doing this but he'll learn.

Reward for effort on the scoreboard works wonders.

Now for the real test... winning against the GCS when we're expected to. This could well be the game that determines The TTs future, if it hasn't already been determined.

Probably the first time I can recall LOB making a good contribution - excellent ball use (which was the story when he was drafted) but also put serious effort into restricting his opponent. 

Ditto Paddy Dow, who has discovered (or possibly rediscovered) how to deliver the ball by foot and is not getting caught with the ball like he used to - it seems that he now has the strength to break tackles and keep his feet to pass the ball by hand despite being tackled.

Maybe they both just needed to develop more slowly than your average first round draft picks.

LOB better reproduce that form for the rest of the season, otherwise i fear it may be too little, too late.
By the far the best game he's ever played. He actually looked like an AFL player. I'm not sure he's ever really looked like a VFL player before.

Dow on the other hand continues to take things up a notch. He has performed to AFL level for half the year now. Looks like the player we'd always hoped he could be.

Speaking of needed more time to develop......perhaps we should afford our coach a similar luxury.

Honey and LOB were quality contributors, dare I say it seems some good development has gone on there? Those early goal assists from Honey were fckn gems. The by foot delivery skills of LOB into the forward line were, in very sophisticated terms... sh1t hot.

SOJ proved that you need not be quick over the grass as a midfielder if you've got a high footy IQ and a ticker as big a Phar Lap.

100% agree ... and Charlie's goal was a complete delight.  And when Harry's on he is ON !

 Random thoughts

A lot of the skill of a player like O'Brien has to do with the quality of the opposition.
If we're on top, O'Brien has a bit more time and is able to produce those quality disposals.
Under pressure and they're not likely to be so accurate.

When a group is playing as a team, and supporting one another, your fringe players always look a whole level better.

Jack Silvagni is more in the mould of his grandfather than his dad.

Our blokes are making it a bit hard for a board that's a bit indecisive about the coaching position...There's a good chance they'll be screwed whatever they do.

@ Kruddler...You could have made a bit of money betting on our games in the last two weeks. ;)

Really enjoyed watching that and seeing our young brigade showing very positive signs of development and Charlie easing back in.  The Saints hit back hard at the start of the 4Q but we were very professional in the way we steadied and went on to a solid win. Excellent confidence building effort from team and coaches imo.

Unbelievable result. I'm still pinching myself this morning. looking forward to watching a replay of the game as I was on the gas last night and couldn't really appreciate how good everyone was.
Unbelievable. Did not think we had a hope in hell even with Charlie and H in.
Stunned.

What a change from last week! Could not believe what I was seeing and unfortunately probably couldnt enjoy it as much as kept expecting the capitulation to come - but it didn't! so happy for them, felt like they were proving a point to the naysayers.

LOB better reproduce that form for the rest of the season, otherwise i fear it may be too little, too late.
By the far the best game he's ever played. He actually looked like an AFL player. I'm not sure he's ever really looked like a VFL player before.

Dow on the other hand continues to take things up a notch. He has performed to AFL level for half the year now. Looks like the player we'd always hoped he could be.

Speaking of needed more time to develop......perhaps we should afford our coach a similar luxury.

As you and I noticed in game the pressure was low and almost practice game like so it was easy to deliver the footy and get a kick.
I saw Plowman take a few bounces and stroll through the middle of the ground with no pressure for example.
So I'm not getting convinced about LOB until I have seen more of him in more highly contested games... But what he showed was promising and I'd keep him in the team for the remaining games along with Honey...

LOB was never going to be able to prove he could play unless we gave him games.

That last kick into F50 is the most important kick in footy, and LoB landed three or four. There are plenty of players who would have stuffed those kicks last night. Well worth a spot on the list IMO.

I think the spuds in the post game presser asking the stupid questions should be required to speak their name just before they ask the question, so that the public knows who they are!

When the ask a question, if they haven't already introduced themselves, if I were Teague, before answering I ask, "Sorry who is this I'm speaking to?"

Teague could even open the presser by politely asking them to please call out your name before asking the questions!

Football is far too much between the ears!!! Last week mentally thrown by the fact the we had no forward line and saw no reward for effort… and checked out!  This week the big target is back, Charlie returned to play the perfect decoy up forward, we kick straight in the first quarter and .. …. there you go!!!

Do not underestimate the energy and excitement Charlie brought to the team this week, another reason why he HAD to play. He is a much loved member of the group and his positivity is infectious.

That last kick into F50 is the most important kick in footy, and LoB landed three or four. There are plenty of players who would have stuffed those kicks last night. Well worth a spot on the list IMO.

I think the debate (ifever there was one) of Cottrell or LOB is dusted now.

I think the debate (ifever there was one) of Cottrell or LOB is dusted now.

If you could combine Cotts' engine/desire and LOB's left peg, what a player.

As you and I noticed in game the pressure was low and almost practice game like so it was easy to deliver the footy and get a kick.
I saw Plowman take a few bounces and stroll through the middle of the ground with no pressure for example.
So I'm not getting convinced about LOB until I have seen more of him in more highly contested games... But what he showed was promising and I'd keep him in the team for the remaining games along with Honey...

And duly turned it over IIRC. I beg to differ re pressure, I thought it was on for a fair bit of the game. Why is it that when we win everyone thinks it was bruise free or suggesting the other team lost as opposed to us winning? Fact is, we went hard, kicked straight and dominated the ops.

Random thoughts

A lot of the skill of a player like O'Brien has to do with the quality of the opposition.
If we're on top, O'Brien has a bit more time and is able to produce those quality disposals.
Under pressure and they're not likely to be so accurate.

When a group is playing as a team, and supporting one another, your fringe players always look a whole level better.

Jack Silvagni is more in the mould of his grandfather than his dad.

Our blokes are making it a bit hard for a board that's a bit indecisive about the coaching position...There's a good chance they'll be screwed whatever they do.

@ Kruddler...You could have made a bit of money betting on our games in the last two weeks. ;)

I actually thought they played close to each other last night resulting in tight contests. What I mean by this is we normally try to get out wide to runners, I think our patterns where a lot tighter last night. Thoughts?

And duly turned it over IIRC. I beg to differ re pressure, I thought it was on for a fair bit of the game. Why is it that when we win everyone thinks it was bruise free or suggesting the other team lost as opposed to us winning? Fact is, we went hard, kicked straight and dominated the ops.

We played well but we need to judge players when the heat is on more and we dont get blinded by front running players who only perform when the rest of the team is performing. I like players who stand up when we are struggling and I need to see that from LOB and a few others before I would be calling him over the line.

Late to the party again but a great win last night. Just a pity they got a few cheap goals at the end....we should've really put the foot on the throat and thrashed them by 10 goals...but a win is a win.

Really encouraging to see the form of blokes like Dow, O'Brien and Honey. LOB's kicking was a feature and although he didn't get tonnes of the ball, he was very efficient with his kicking and set up a few goals, as did Dow....as did Honey. It was great to see Honey get a couple himself after dishing a few off. Really impressed with his game and he looks like a smart footballer who is a really good kick.

I liked the fact Williamson got forward and kicked a couple of goals but somebody needs to tell him he's not Dustyn Martin. He tried the fend off 3 times and got caught holding the ball each time. Probably doesn't help that he's so one sided but keep it simple and dish it off if you can't get onto your left.

Charlie had a relatively quiet game but who cares...he got through which is the main thing and the fact he was out there seemed to give Harry a bit of a spark too...but again, he missed a couple of easier ones and could've had 7 on the night.

As for Walsh, what more needs to be said....now he's hitting the scoreboard as well.

Last but not least, Silvagni.....he looked buggered in the third quarter but willed himself to every contest and actually got the centre clearance on a number of occasions after contesting the hitout. He probably won't get votes last night but that was an inspiring performance to battle on the way he did.

Next week...I'd be giving Kemp a run to replace Newnes. And if McGovern is fit, then sneak him in there too.

Murphy got a cheap goal on the siren but is limping to 300...he got caught with the ball nearly every contest after he came on.

Fortunately I didn't have the opportunity to see last weeks game and I have had no incentive to watch the replay. Having Charlie and Harry up forward gives us some structure while Honey and O'Brien gave us real running power. With the likes of SPS, Fogarty, Cunningham, Setterfield and Cottrell out of the side for form injury or balance, and the likes of Kemp, Ramsay, Carroll, Durdin, and Philps coming through, I quite like where our mid-field is going. I liked Cripps' game. He embraced being an inside mid dishing the ball out, he had a physical presence around the ball and he was the leader. I thought Walsh had one of his most impactful games yet I didn't have him in my votes. Williams seemed to play on Hill and he held him well and kicked a couple of goals. It was probably his best game. We kicked 1. 9. against Geelong and we kicked 10. 1 against St.Kilda last night. It is amazing how kicking goals change a game. Jack Silvagni might become our most important player. He is a guy who can do whatever job he is asked to do. Jones was fantastic. He stepped up when Weitering was in trouble, helped stabilise our defence and enabled Weitering to get on top of King. The best thing about last night's result, besides keeping our slim finals chances alive, is that it has totally destabilized Hawthorn. Not sure what the media is going to write and talk about this week after last night's effort.

And duly turned it over IIRC. I beg to differ re pressure, I thought it was on for a fair bit of the game. Why is it that when we win everyone thinks it was bruise free or suggesting the other team lost as opposed to us winning? Fact is, we went hard, kicked straight and dominated the ops.

Absolutely G2C!

Our blokes made it look like there was little pressure because they took the game on and exploited the errors that our pressure created.  We played a demanding, high risk, high reward game style and we weren't able to maintain the same level of pressure in the last quarter.  When we win convincingly, it's not because the opposition doesn't apply pressure.  It's because we absorb their pressure and apply more ourselves.

It was interesting that Murphy couldn't pick up the tempo of the game and was crunched every time he contested.

We played well but we need to judge players when the heat is on more and we dont get blinded by front running players who only perform when the rest of the team is performing. I like players who stand up when we are struggling and I need to see that from LOB and a few others before I would be calling him over the line.

Agree, but for you to see him, they need to play the poor bastard. Confidence and belief through a feeling of belonging is an amazing thing.

Absolutely G2C!

Our blokes made it look like there was little pressure because they took the game on and exploited the errors that our pressure created.  We played a demanding, high risk, high reward game style and we weren't able to maintain the same level of pressure in the last quarter.  When we win convincingly, it's not because the opposition doesn't apply pressure.  It's because we absorb their pressure and apply more ourselves.

It was interesting that Murphy couldn't pick up the tempo of the game and was crunched every time he contested.

Confidence, he's about as low as a pregnant ant ATM.

What a change from last week! Could not believe what I was seeing and unfortunately probably couldnt enjoy it as much as kept expecting the capitulation to come - but it didn't! so happy for them, felt like they were proving a point to the naysayers.

Was looking shaky when they dobbed 3 or 4 in a row in the last. As DJC said, the boys absorbed that pressure and held it together. Murphs goal on the siren was more important than people may think.

Murphy isnt a factor anymore and we are doing him a courtesy for years of service. He looks slow and lacking awareness but
as a sub its an easy way for the club and him to get his goal without too much heat on his actual performance.

Fark it I'll shoot the bambis while I'm at it, we didnt miss SPS's and Williams's lack of intensity one iota.

Where’s Spanner??  Oh wait, we won.

Murphy isnt a factor anymore and we are doing him a courtesy for years of service. He looks slow and lacking awareness but
as a sub its an easy way for the club and him to get his goal without too much heat on his actual performance.

He seems to have the weight of the world on his shoulders, more so than when he was captain.
- Worried the hammy could ping again at moment.
- Knows his retirement is 2 or games away.
- Understands he is being limped across tdd line and the scrutiny that goes with that.

Post bye progress (north aberration aside)

Defence improving
Resilience and belief in system
In game adaptation
Not Cripps reliant
Not Weiters reliant
Not even Walsh reliant
Youngsters development
Goalkicking
Delivery i50
Pressure across the ground
Synergy within and between lines
Leadership across all lines
Composure - tempo
Depth in midfield

None of these aspects are great, rather improving or becoming less vulnerable to exploit by oppo. We need to maintain development and have a bit of luck with injuries, but I think the foundations are finally settling.

Those areas where TT and co. have some control have improved. Can't ask for more than that. IMO this is indicative of a system with capacity for resilience and success.

For the first time in ages, we're seeing our youngsters developing and pushing for selection as opposed to pushing for delisting. Folk are now asking "why aren't they being selected". Not "why were they drafted". There have been errors and challenges along the way. No doubt. As slow as it's been though, I think we're on the right track. I don't want to see any more wholesale changes.

Go Blues

Where’s Spanner??  Oh wait, we won.

He's long in hiding this week, as expected......haha.

For all he's done in maintaining this site (and regardless of his football opinions) pay him some respect, instead of cheap shots  >:D 

For all he's done in maintaining this site (and regardless of his football opinions) pay him some respect, instead of cheap shots  >:D 

Nothing ‘cheap shot’ about it….. it’s fact.

@ Kruddler...You could have made a bit of money betting on our games in the last two weeks. ;)

I don't really bet, and i never do on our games.

THe only benefit to me is that its helped me get to the top 4 in my family tipping comp (out of 20-odd) and that dishes out prizes to the top 3, so it may pay off.

LOB was never going to be able to prove he could play unless we gave him games.

He's now played 38 games.

Including that good game last night, that makes 1 good game.

As you and I noticed in game the pressure was low and almost practice game like so it was easy to deliver the footy and get a kick.
I saw Plowman take a few bounces and stroll through the middle of the ground with no pressure for example.
So I'm not getting convinced about LOB until I have seen more of him in more highly contested games... But what he showed was promising and I'd keep him in the team for the remaining games along with Honey...

Correct.
Largely bruise free footy last night that had them on the back foot very early thanks to our straight kicking. That accentuated the bruise free nature.

I think the debate (ifever there was one) of Cottrell or LOB is dusted now.

Personally....i'd delist them both.

He's now played 38 games.

Including that good game last night, that makes 1 good game.

Everyone was saying the same about Dow a few weeks ago. We drafted these kids, give them a fair go instead of carrying a has been to 300 games.

Everyone was saying the same about Dow a few weeks ago. We drafted these kids, give them a fair go instead of carrying a has been to 300 games.

No.

Dow, although he'd underperformed as well, always showed glimpses that he was AFL standard. He didn't get the Paddy WOW nickname for nothing. LOB was so far behind Dow in terms of output and development its like he was 2 years younger.

He's now played 38 games.

……and a victim of the lack of continuity in the VFL competition over the past two years. Hard to develop and hone skills after what they’ve been subject to of recent times.

For all he's done in maintaining this site (and regardless of his football opinions) pay him some respect, instead of cheap shots  >:D

Nup.

No.

Dow, although he'd underperformed as well, always showed glimpses that he was AFL standard. He didn't get the Paddy WOW nickname for nothing. LOB was so far behind Dow in terms of output and development its like he was 2 years younger.

Agree

Dow also missed a fair chunk through injury whilst lob was just crap.

Even so the last 18 months has been tough for a lot of people and we have some list management issues regarding who stays and who goes.  For the first time in a long time we actually have a lot of tough calls to make on players come end of season. 

No.

Dow, although he'd underperformed as well, always showed glimpses that he was AFL standard. He didn't get the Paddy WOW nickname for nothing. LOB was so far behind Dow in terms of output and development its like he was 2 years younger.

If Dow wasn't given this little run of games he would be on the same scrap heap that LOB was on until last night, same as Kennedy. Giving Murphy another year was damaging to our development and embarrassing for him to be carried to 300.

……and a victim of the lack of continuity in the VFL competition over the past two years. Hard to develop and hone skills after what they’ve been subject to of recent times.

There's also the very simple reality that some players take longer to develop than others. The question of how long a club should wait for a player to show something is a matter of professional judgment. If LoB was at Hawthorn or Geelong, he would have spent most of the past few years in the 2's. The Bolton / Silvagni "axis of evil" lol decided against this approach, in large part because stuff all development happens at the Bullants, and they were better off playing and developing the kids in the 1's.

LOB's form in the VFL was uninspiring to say the least, ok some players dont take to reserves footy and need the upgrade to senior footy to show something and will just sulk in the twos but you really couldnt say that LOB banged the door down to get a game with a string of BOG's for example.
This article I found interesting on Justin Leppitch's views on Lachie Obrien and why Richmond rated his skills but not his overall suitability. This summed up their view on him well IMO...“The Tigers are very clear on the type of person they want. You bring him into the door and then you’re asking an assistant coach to fix the issues to make him a competitive AFL player.”
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/04/04/the-top-blues-draftee-who-richmond-would-never-have-taken/

Good luck to him but I want to see more of the competitive LOB to be convinced....

The stats from last night's game don't make for great reading : Saints won the disposals (significantly), I50's, clearances, contested and uncontested possessions, marks and marks I50 (17-10). We won the tackles. That sort of statistical profile usually results in a good win.

The stats from last night's game don't make for great reading : Saints won the disposals (significantly), I50's, clearances, contested and uncontested possessions, marks and marks I50 (17-10). We won the tackles. That sort of statistical profile usually results in a good win.

Saints had a lot of meaningless ball, we had more system.....they probably won a lot of ball in the last quarter junk time where we looked tired especially players like Jack who couldnt jump anymore but our defenders held up well.
Steele had 36 possies but didnt influence the game, Hill did a lot of cheap receiving around half back.....Ross, Billings, Jones all just seem to kick around corners racking up stats but getting nowhere.
Love to know the self induced turnover stats for the Saints ..that young kid Connolly ran at a million miles an hour and then ran himself into trouble numerous times and gave the ball back with some horrendous Bower like disposal....you could see it coming just like you could with Bower.

Saints had a lot of meaningless ball, we had more system.....they probably won a lot of ball in the last quarter junk time where we looked tired especially players like Jack who couldnt jump anymore but our defenders held up well.
....................................................................

Our tackling and general pressure was very good, and goal kicking accuracy was once-a-season type stuff. But they had one less shot on goal, more I50's, and 7 more marks I50. They had enough chances IMO. I'm happy for the win, but not getting carried away just yet.

Unless the other team is having a nightmare in front of goal, and / or are turnover merchants, we won't be winning many games when the opp has that sort of statistical profile IMO.

Our tackling and general pressure was very good, and goal kicking accuracy was once-a-season type stuff. But they had one less shot on goal, more I50's, and 7 more marks I50. They had enough chances IMO. I'm happy for the win, but not getting carried away just yet.

Who cares if you win.  We were far more powerful. 

I do feel a little bit bad performing like that against a team coached by Ratten. He's on his second, and one assumes, last, chance at senior level, and I reckon getting success at the Saints would be a pretty tough gig. Given what he's been through, some success would be nice.

I saw Plowman take a few bounces and stroll through the middle of the ground with no pressure for example.

And he turned it over!!

And he turned it over!!

That was the bad Plowman, very laconic and capable of the horrendous every now and then.

Just a mention for a couple of players who didn't trouble the statisticians too much - I thought Martin and (to a lesser extent) Owies were hard at it by putting on physical pressure in and around the forward line.

Martin, in particular, has the acceleration to do just that but it hasn't been something that he has done as effectively as he did n this game.

the main difference between this week (and all of our poor games or parts of games) is that the players made a concerted effort to run with intensity to pressure opponents with the ball and to pressure opponents in a position to receive a hand pass - instead of trying to corral an opponent without pressuring him or cruising along and hoping the opponent trips over his boot laces (e.g. SPS). 

As good as he can be, Weitering had little or no chance against Larkey last week and was similarly ineffective early against King until the rest of the team stood up to create pressure on the opponebts who were delivering the ball.

As good as he can be, Weitering had little or no chance against Larkey last week and was similarly ineffective early against King until the rest of the team stood up to create pressure on the opponebts who were delivering the ball.

Under the current rules this will always be the case.

BigH benefits because we've guys running interference, Betts, Owies, SoJ.

As good as he can be, Weitering had little or no chance against Larkey last week and was similarly ineffective early against King until the rest of the team stood up to create pressure on the opponebts who were delivering the ball.

I thought his positioning against King for those first few goals was ordinary, one (the third maybe?) was a hold from memory. For the rest of the game, both he and Jone played him more from in front and King struggled. They removed his opportunity to run and jump at it.

I thought his positioning against King for those first few goals was ordinary, one (the third maybe?) was a hold from memory. For the rest of the game, both he and Jone played him more from in front and King struggled. They removed his opportunity to run and jump at it.

Yep, basic positioning.

When you have a bloke that is taller, faster and can jump higher than you, you simply must play in front to have a  chance. That's why I called for Jones to get switched onto him as he is better in all 3 of those categories compared to weiters.

Statistically Jones is actually the best one on one defender in the comp.

Statistically Jones is actually the best one on one defender in the comp.

I think those statistics need to be qualified because the bulk of his marks come as the 3rd man up with the other defenders allowing him to leave his opponent and fly or gain front position and beat his opponent to the ball. I'd even go as far to say one on one wrestling he one of our weaker defenders, and in games when he has been average it's because opponents block his run at the ball.

I thought his positioning against King for those first few goals was ordinary, one (the third maybe?) was a hold from memory. For the rest of the game, both he and Jone played him more from in front and King struggled. They removed his opportunity to run and jump at it.

When the mids aren't doing their job defensively....no defender has much chance!

I think king went out of it after the umpire who was doing his area in the first Qtr and gave 3 free kicks to him was not in his forward 50 after that.  Be nice when we rise up the ladder more and we get the better umpires!
I also saw a glimpse of what we can be and it was pretty exciting with a few of the passages of play and straight kicking

I think king went out of it after the umpire who was doing his area in the first Qtr and gave 3 free kicks to him was not in his forward 50 after that.  Be nice when we rise up the ladder more and we get the better umpires!

Yes, I had exactly the same thought when I think it was BT was banging on about the umpire lecturing Weitering, it was clear that umpire only saw the infringements occurring in one direction. But the video from the other angles proved otherwise, as we all know! :o

Then it goes down the other end, and the other umpire sees King scragging and holding Weiterieng way way before the ball gets in the zone.

Some of this change comes from the reserve umpire, goal umpires and umpire's coaches who tell the field umpires what to look out for at the intervals.

The Umps view arms around the player as holding even if there is little or no contact....thats just how the rule is applied.
Its hard for any defender when a player like King is taller and better athletically, Jones was the better matchup being taller and quicker. Weitering is better on the push and shove merchants like Hawkins, bit surprised Ratten didnt move King further up the ground and maybe put a player like Membrey at FF on Weitering and run him around more.
Both Ratten and Teague are not the most pro active of coaches and take too long to react to momentum changes IMO.

When the mids aren't doing their job defensively....no defender has much chance!

Agree but positioning is important. As soon as they adjusted, King couldn't get near it and was beaten nearly every time.

I think those statistics need to be qualified because the bulk of his marks come as the 3rd man up with the other defenders allowing him to leave his opponent and fly or gain front position and beat his opponent to the ball. I'd even go as far to say one on one wrestling he one of our weaker defenders, and in games when he has been average it's because opponents block his run at the ball.

They have been qualified. He has had more one on one contests than anyone and won a higher percentage than anyone.

For a guy that always asks for data why do you always question it?

They have been qualified. He has had more one on one contests than anyone and won a higher percentage than anyone.

For a guy that always asks for data why do you always question it?

I question it because I have bothered to check what the statisticians call a contested mark, a contested mark is not what fans think of as contested.

If an opponent is travelling to the ball within 2 or 3m of the player marking it's a contested mark, there doesn't even have to be physical contact, it can just be inferred pressure.

When someone like Hawkins pushes off a defender and takes a mark without contact 2 or 3m clear of the defender that is a contested mark.

If Jones floats across the front of two players wrestling at the fall of the ball and takes a mark without any physical contact, a metre or 2m clear of the others, that is a contested mark.

We've covered this over and over again here on this very forum. You cannot even make direct comparisons between Champion Data, the AFL statistics, and other data sources because they are all free to apply their own definitions and weigh the aspects of play differently.

Random thoughts

A lot of the skill of a player like O'Brien has to do with the quality of the opposition.
If we're on top, O'Brien has a bit more time and is able to produce those quality disposals.
Under pressure and they're not likely to be so accurate.

During the call, I think it was on the radio (listened to the 1st quarter in the car) BT called O'Brien a poor kick and asked Bartel about his development.  Bartel said he was technically a very good kick so it was more about composure. 

I think it's two part.   What you said above Lods and 2nd part is that is O'Brien (Like Dow) needs to realize that he has more time and  space not to rush his disposal.   Panics too much and takes the wrong option.

Great game on Friday.   One hot day...   Let's hope it makes a summer.

He is the type of player that isn't suited to VFL football.

I question it because I have bothered to check what the statisticians call a contested mark, a contested mark is not what fans think of as contested.

If an opponent is travelling to the ball within 2 or 3m of the player marking it's a contested mark, there doesn't even have to be physical contact, it can just be inferred pressure.

When someone like Hawkins pushes off a defender and takes a mark without contact 2 or 3m clear of the defender that is a contested mark.

If Jones floats across the front of two players wrestling at the fall of the ball and takes a mark without any physical contact, that is a contested mark.

We've covered this over and over again here on this very forum.

....and if thats the case....its the same rules for everyone....and Jones still does better than anyone. So why the argument?

....and if thats the case....its the same rules for everyone....and Jones still does better than anyone. So why the argument?

See the last bit I was still editing when you replied.

Also it's basically a team tactic, it's not a direct assessment or judgement of individual player ability.

I'd say Jones gets this job, primarily because he is weaker at the very thing we commonly think is one on one contested marking, and that is wrestling at the fall of the ball.

That is not a commentary from me asserting Jones is either good or bad, it's just the way it is in our team.

As I mentioned last week, fans kybosh Plowman because he always seems to be on the losing end of contests, but that is because he's the one picking up the loose pieces that will allow Jones and Weitering to do what they do when they leave opponents and intercept mark.

Jones and Weitering are pretty much the best KPD combo in the AFL. I give them both votes by default in the Jim Park. If Teague survives the review, he will in large part have the two of them to thank. When the chips are down, they have almost single handedly kept us in games IMO.

See the last bit I was still editing when you replied.

Also it's basically a team tactic, it's not a direct assessment or judgement of individual player ability.

I'd say Jones gets this job, primarily because he is weaker at the very thing we commonly think is one on one contested marking, and that is wrestling at the fall of the ball.

That is not a commentary from me asserting Jones is either good or bad, it's just the way it is in our team.

As I mentioned last week, fans kybosh Plowman because he always seems to be on the losing end of contests, but that is because he's the one picking up the loose pieces that will allow Jones and Weitering to do what they do when they leave opponents and intercept mark.

You can argue that he is not #1, despite stats saying he is, but you cannot argue that the stats are so far out of whack that he is actually no good in that area.

Fact is, he is very good in this area, quite possibly the best. The point you are attempting to make is hardly worth it in the scheme of things.

FWIW, AFL stats use champion data stats, so its all the same thing and no differences between the 2.

You can argue that he is not #1, despite stats saying he is, but you cannot argue that the stats are so far out of whack that he is actually no good in that area.

Fact is, he is very good in this area, quite possibly the best. The point you are attempting to make is hardly worth it in the scheme of things.

FWIW, AFL stats use champion data stats, so its all the same thing and no differences between the 2.

The users of CD are free to apply their own weight to the data.

I never claimed Jones was bad or poor at his role, so why mention it? I was questioning the concept that he was the best based on all the various options available and how they are assessed? I was also highlighting the difference between the common fan understanding of a contested mark, and what CD uses.

Secondly, the AFL takes CD data and uses Player Ratings which I believe originally came form Vic Uni, however the the way Player Ratings characterised things like a contest are not necessarily the same as the CD version of a contest. this introduces a distortion, because they are applying an algorithm to similar data not identical data.

I note now, several AFL clubs are unhappy with the way CD does it's analysis and perform their own analysis. btw., You may ask why go to that cost, it turns out that CD is contracted to the AFL, and clubs have to pay for access to that data, so CD is not free if you are an AFL club. So I suppose they argue if they must pay they may as well get what they want.

I never claimed Jones was bad or poor at his role, so why mention it?

Because the sole reason this came up is because you had a hissy fit saying he is not the best.

Who cares if he is the best, 2nd best, 3rd best.....he is elite at what he does....which is the point.
You get on your high horse and 'prove a point' that doesn't change the message of the original point.....so why bother?

Because the sole reason this came up is because you had a hissy fit saying he is not the best.

This below is a hissy fit..................?

I think those statistics need to be qualified because the bulk of his marks come as the 3rd man up ....................

Once again you've gone on to argue a non-existent point, there was no hissy fit, there was no claim or argument Jones was no good as you asserted, you made it all up!

Once again you've gone on to argue a non-existent point, there was no hissy fit, there was no claim or argument Jones was no good as you asserted, you made it all up!

Your whole rhetoric is answering questions that nobody was asking.

Jones = elite at intercept marks. EOS.
No need to spew forth potential inaccuracies over statistics, use your eyes. Data just backs that up.

Jones = elite at intercept marks. EOS.
No need to spew forth potential inaccuracies over statistics, use your eyes. Data just backs that up.

The debate wasn't about intercept marking though, the debate was about him labelled as the best One on One defender..

So again your debating something nobody else is writing about, you do it all the time and take discussions off track!

disagree, we must get him to 300.

And I'm not a fan of Smurf....

I am amazed we have supporters who would even consider this. Finals are right there - we are 1 game out and we're talking about putting the individual ahead of the entire point of the club as a whole?

Make finals. Or play 17 vs. 18 because we want to limp a guy to a meaningless milestone. It's an amazing achievement to play 297 games the same as it is to play 300. Why does anyone care? Murphy himself would be embarrassed for all eternity if his 299th game he cost us finals.

During the call, I think it was on the radio (listened to the 1st quarter in the car) BT called O'Brien a poor kick and asked Bartel about his development.

Heard that as well.  Probably a case of BT mixing up Dow and OBrien.   He ain’t that smart (esp when it comes to our players)

I am amazed we have supporters who would even consider this. Finals are right there - we are 1 game out and we're talking about putting the individual ahead of the entire point of the club as a whole?

Our making finals is really totally dependant on others losing, we are unlikely to bridge the percentage gap so ending up on the same number of wins isn't good enough. I think Freo are in prime position.

The other problem is that some of the teams above us that are vying for the last spot play each other, so some of those above are guaranteed one win and excluding Freo they all have better percentages.

If we do a Melbourne and smash GC we might get enough of a percentage boost to put us closer, but I'd assert if we have to us and injury sub in the process it's not going to happen. Plus at this stage are we going to have a ruck?

Our making finals is really totally dependant on others losing, we are unlikely to bridge the percentage gap so ending up on the same number of wins isn't good enough. I think Freo are in prime position.

The other problem is that some of the teams above us that are vying for the last spot play each other, so some of those above are guaranteed one win and excluding Freo they all have better percentages.

If we do a Melbourne and smash GC we might get enough of a percentage boost to put us closer, but I'd assert if we have to us and injury sub in the process it's not going to happen. Plus at this stage are we going to have a ruck?

In Freo's case their percentage is worse than ours, which is why I was hoping they'd win yesterday. Just hoping North keep up their good form and roll the Tigers. Some confidence in that one. Hope Brisbane can find form and best Freo. Not so sure about that. Geelong will beat GWS in Geelong and the Dogs will beat Essendon. That happens and the finals will be in our own hands, as long as we win.

We need to win 3 of 3.

Freo have Brisbane in Perth, Eagles then St Kilda here (docklands). If they win all 3, they're in....but they're flaky. So expect one loss.

WCE have Dees in Perth, Dockers then Brsbane (possibly up there, otherwise here?) might win zero, might win 2. Win 2, they're in.

Saints have Syvegas here, Cats in Geelong, then Freo. Two wins at best.

Bombers have Bulldogs, Suns (up there possibly), Pies at the G. Two wins at best.

Tigers have North, Giants, Hawthorn - win all three and we win all three, they pip us most likely on %.

I think Freo are rolling now and can knock over Brisbane....they won without Fyfe and Walters and Cerra has probably added some more dollars onto his price.
I thought Richmond might win their three but the team getting Clarko last game for the Hawks would be worried....
Giants just play a rubbish brand for a team with so much talent and how Cameron is still coaching is a mystery to me..

Just on our tackling in the Saints game, was it just me or did a lot of our very good tackles go unrewarded? There seemed to be quite a few instances where the perfect tackle was laid and the Saints player given an eternity to get rid of it, then didn't, and we still didn't get a kick.

And the arms around the waist free kick in a marking contest....be nice if that rule applied to all areas of the ground. It seems to be only against defenders.

I am amazed we have supporters who would even consider this. Finals are right there - we are 1 game out and we're talking about putting the individual ahead of the entire point of the club as a whole?

Make finals. Or play 17 vs. 18 because we want to limp a guy to a meaningless milestone. It's an amazing achievement to play 297 games the same as it is to play 300. Why does anyone care? Murphy himself would be embarrassed for all eternity if his 299th game he cost us finals.

Wow! 16,107 odd players have played VFL/AFL football, 95 have made the 300 game milestone. Duds dont play that many and its a significant milestone every players sets out to achieve. He has been a loyal servant of the club and I for one care as would most if not every one of his team mates and coaches. We aren't going to make the 8 IMO.

Wow! 16,107 odd players have played VFL/AFL football, 95 have made the 300 game milestone. Duds dont play that many and its a significant milestone every players sets out to achieve. He has been a loyal servant of the club and I for one care as would most if not every one of his team mates and coaches. We aren't going to make the 8 IMO.

Yes, I generally agree. I can't believe even for a second that Murphy would be the difference between finals and no finals.

Yes, I generally agree. I can't believe even for a second that Murphy would be the difference between finals and no finals.

He was on the ground for 1/2 the time Owies was, kicked a goal, (Owies didn't kick any) and got 2 possessions less (4 to  6). Just saying.

He was on the ground for 1/2 the time Owies was, kicked a goal, (Owies didn't kick any) and got 2 possessions less (4 to  6). Just saying.

I've heard Wayne Carey and Ross Lyon say they really rate Murphy. He's up to 298 games now. They don't even have to play him in one of the three remaining ones. The Murphy haters won't have to see him after this season regardless. Get him to 300, and then both the pro and anti Murphy crowd can have a win. He's had very little to show for 16 years of service, and one has to wonder if others that take his spot really offer much more.

I've heard Wayne Carey and Ross Lyon say they really rate Murphy. He's up to 298 games now. They don't even have to play him in one of the three remaining ones. The Murphy haters won't have to see him after this season regardless. Get him to 300, and then both the pro and anti Murphy crowd can have a win. He's had very little to show for 16 years of service, and one has to wonder if others that take his spot really offer much more.

Hard to see any of those proposed replacements playing 300.

When sMurph arrived at Carlton he had as much impact as Walsh, then we basically let Brisbane beat the shizen out of him and wreck his shoulders with little or no retribution.

If we'd had some team success, he'd be talked up as good as Ashman or Sheldon. Deserves 300, and deserves unconditional respect!

Wow! 16,107 odd players have played VFL/AFL football, 95 have made the 300 game milestone. Duds dont play that many and its a significant milestone every players sets out to achieve. He has been a loyal servant of the club and I for one care as would most if not every one of his team mates and coaches. We aren't going to make the 8 IMO.

They certainly don't. No club has left a player on 298 or 299 games. They have been nursed to 300. He deserves it even if he is past his prime. Had the option to go somewhere else before his last contract and chose to stay, showing loyalty to the club. And now the club is showing it to him. Enough said.

The club is always bigger than the individual

The club is always bigger than the individual

True, but the culture of the club is created by how they treat individuals.  This is enough reason not to sack Teague now to go with getting Murphy to 300 games.

NOTE:  The decisions from now until end of year havent cost us finals.  There have been a few games that have cost us finals, and getting Murphy to 300 games isnt going to be the only reason we dont make it (even if it is a reason). 

True, but the culture of the club is created by how they treat individuals.  This is enough reason not to sack Teague now to go with getting Murphy to 300 games.

NOTE:  The decisions from now until end of year havent cost us finals.  There have been a few games that have cost us finals, and getting Murphy to 300 games isnt going to be the only reason we dont make it (even if it is a reason).

Here Here.

Our making finals is really totally dependant on others losing, we are unlikely to bridge the percentage gap so ending up on the same number of wins isn't good enough. I think Freo are in prime position.

The other problem is that some of the teams above us that are vying for the last spot play each other, so some of those above are guaranteed one win and excluding Freo they all have better percentages.

If we do a Melbourne and smash GC we might get enough of a percentage boost to put us closer, but I'd assert if we have to us and injury sub in the process it's not going to happen. Plus at this stage are we going to have a ruck?

What do we stand for as a club? The individual or the group? Playing Murphy in spite of his inability to perform just so he can get to 300 is definitely putting the individual before the club given we're sitting 1 win outside the 8 with 3 to play.

That isn't even a question for me. You never want to put the individual before the club. It may mean Murphy cuts up about it but who cares? If he does that just indicates he wasn't much of a person to begin with.

NOTE:  The decisions from now until end of year havent cost us finals.  There have been a few games that have cost us finals 

So don't worry about making finals then. 2021 is done as we lost some games earlier in the year?

They certainly don't. No club has left a player on 298 or 299 games. They have been nursed to 300. He deserves it even if he is past his prime. Had the option to go somewhere else before his last contract and chose to stay, showing loyalty to the club. And now the club is showing it to him. Enough said.

If Murphy is picked to play in anything other than VFL this weekend it will be a disgrace to this club.

If Murphy is picked to play in anything other than VFL this weekend it will be a disgrace to this club.

And a reminder to some ... Percy Jones was left stranded on 249 games.

^^ The point being, getting Murphy to 300 games isn't going to cost us finals any more than any other factor this season.


Look, I too am thinking that we should be playing to win every week, but it isnt a zero sum game here, where we play Murphy and we dont give ourselves maximum opportunity to win.  we gifted games to draft picks for years, and now that we have broken Murphy beyond repair, we are wondering if we should get him to 300 games.

perhaps this is what will make the difference to getting Sam Walsh at market rate, than resigning him above market rate.  We do the right things by the players, and they will do the right things by us too. 

If Murphy is picked to play in anything other than VFL this weekend it will be a disgrace to this club.

In your opinion, what do you think his team mates think? Axe him now or get him over the line?

Playing Murphy in spite of his inability to perform just so he can get to 300 is definitely putting the individual before the club given we're sitting 1 win outside the 8 with 3 to play.

Personally, I think the above statement exposes a prejudice, I'll explain why.

In most games sMurph has played he has been far from our worst, even in several of those partial games when he has come on he had as much influence if not more influence than some that played 4-qtrs. Yet many "fans" seem happy not to give him credit when credit is due.

I thought that there was a danger that perhaps I was being too apologist for sMurph, so I completed a small exercise.

I filtered out his partial game rankings and come up with a ranking for his 2021 season relative to other team mates only based on full games. Based on that measure he ranked 12th on our list of 2021 players. That put him ahead of SoJ, Martin, Fogarty, Gibbons, SPS, Fisher, De Koning, Stocker, Jones, Dow and even Betts as well as a heap of others.

Now I realise different ranking systems will produce different results, but I do not expect any of them to result in him being top of the pile or bottom of the list.

Perhaps I'm not the one being biased after all! ;)

The club isn't beholden to Murphy. He will be selected or not, based on a number of factors, one of which will be the 300 milestone, another will be who plays his role instead etc. It's not as though there is some match winner / match breaker waiting in the wings, and Murphy is keeping him out of the side. There's nothing set in stone that he won't go around next year, although granted it seems unlikely. Age can't be a factor, because folks are pumping up Betts for 2022, and he's a year older. It's possible that both could play next year, as depth / part time players.

This idea that finals are on the line, therefore Murphy can't play, doesn't stack up in my mind.

Great to see SoJ recognised in the AFLCA votes.

Great to see SoJ recognised in the AFLCA votes.

Yes. And Walsh sitting third in the leaderboard.

Yes. And Walsh sitting third in the leaderboard.

It's interesting to see that Cripps keeps polling in the AFLCA, yet the broadcasters and the fans keep telling everyone how poor he's been, the CheatsFC TV commentary crew almost did an impromptu segment on it!

Personally, I think the above statement exposes a prejudice, I'll explain why.

In most games sMurph has played he has been far from our worst, even in several of those partial games when he has come on he had as much influence if not more influence than some that played 4-qtrs. Yet many "fans" seem happy not to give him credit when credit is due.

I thought that there was a danger that perhaps I was being too apologist for sMurph, so I completed a small exercise.

I filtered out his partial game rankings and come up with a ranking for his 2021 season relative to other team mates only based on full games. Based on that measure he ranked 12th on our list of 2021 players. That put him ahead of SoJ, Martin, Fogarty, Gibbons, SPS, Fisher, De Koning, Stocker, Jones, Dow and even Betts as well as a heap of others.

Now I realise different ranking systems will produce different results, but I do not expect any of them to result in him being top of the pile or bottom of the list.

Perhaps I'm not the one being biased after all! ;)

Ranking points you say?

Ranking points you say?

Yes, they are a rough guide, not a definitive measure. ;)

It's interesting to see that Cripps keeps polling in the AFLCA, yet the broadcasters and the fans keep telling everyone how poor he's been, the CheatsFC TV commentary crew almost did an impromptu segment on it!

Cripps, even down on form, is good enough to usually poll in one award or another IMO. But his votes would be pretty low compared to those glory days of 2018-19.

Just on our tackling in the Saints game, was it just me or did a lot of our very good tackles go unrewarded? There seemed to be quite a few instances where the perfect tackle was laid and the Saints player given an eternity to get rid of it, then didn't, and we still didn't get a kick.

And the arms around the waist free kick in a marking contest....be nice if that rule applied to all areas of the ground. It seems to be only against defenders.

I had similar thought. The interpretation of rules is becoming more of a mystery to me.

It's interesting to see that Cripps keeps polling in the AFLCA, yet the broadcasters and the fans keep telling everyone how poor he's been, the CheatsFC TV commentary crew almost did an impromptu segment on it!

Bias on show?

To be honest, I think a key aspect of Friday's win was Josh Honey's performance - we have been searching for the next small pressure forward, and from what I saw, he has all the makings.  For someone in just his third game (well, second if you only count game time), his first half was exceptional. 

And, he is the only Carlton player who has never played in a loss!

Great to see SoJ recognised in the AFLCA votes.

Indeed. Outstanding performance 👏
Leadership on show.

To be honest, I think a key aspect of Friday's win was Josh Honey's performance - we have been searching for the next small pressure forward, and from what I saw, he has all the makings.  For someone in just his third game (well, second if you only count game time), his first half was exceptional. 

And, he is the only Carlton player who has never played in a loss!

Not sure I'd call him a small forward...@186cm he is more your medium forward IMO but I fully agree he looks the part and
it amazes me he hasnt had more opportunities. Smart in close by hand and one of those players who can just find the goals at least once every game, should get promoted to the senior list. Reminds me a bit of Cam Rayner from Brisbane....

To be honest, I think a key aspect of Friday's win was Josh Honey's performance - we have been searching for the next small pressure forward, and from what I saw, he has all the makings.  For someone in just his third game (well, second if you only count game time), his first half was exceptional. 

And, he is the only Carlton player who has never played in a loss!

He has a weapon that if used properly will terrorise defences, blistering speed.

Indeed. Outstanding performance 👏
Leadership on show.

He's a Silvagni.

He has a weapon that if used properly will terrorise defences, blistering speed.

Good tackle breaker too....

He's a Silvagni.

IMO, he's more like Sergio than Steve.

IMO, he's more like Sergio than Steve.

Funny you mention that, he seems to have grown/filled out a little and the other night, watching him run to contest, I commented to my daughter his gait and the way he moves, to me at least, is all Stephen. Either way, he's a Silvagni.

IMO, he's more like Sergio than Steve.

I think he looks more like Jo.....😉

I think he looks more like Jo.....😉

Agree, his face is all Jo. The bandy legs though...

I think he looks more like Jo.....😉

Agree, his face is all Jo. The bandy legs though...

Yes, no doubt his face is all Jo, but I was talking more about the positions he plays and the way he goes about his football.

Yes, no doubt his face is all Jo, but I was talking more about the positions he plays and the way he goes about his football.

Yes for sure, he has good genes.

Agree, his face is all Jo. The bandy legs though...

Yep he does have the Bandy bent legs and to me is more of a hybrid between Serge and Stephen which isnt a bad thing.
Tough acts to follow for Jack but he has handled himself so well over his career and is starting to get recognized as a  player in his own right now and he owns that 3rd forward tall spot in our best 22.

Yes, no doubt his face is all Jo, but I was talking more about the positions he plays and the way he goes about his football.

I know it was just a poor attempt of sarcasm on my behalf..

IMO, he's more like Sergio than Steve.

Definitely has the core strength of both Serge and Steve

I know it was just a poor attempt of sarcasm on my behalf..

No worries. You could make a pretty solid case either way I reckon.

All the talk for future captain is around Walsh / Weitering. I wonder if Jack might be a bit of a smokey for the position, like his nonno ?

In your opinion, what do you think his team mates think? Axe him now or get him over the line?

I'll provide a different take on things....not necessarily one i believe, but a plausible one at least.

Perhaps the club nursing a player to 300 games sends a positive message to the playing group.
If you bust your butt for us, stay loyal to us, then we will have your back.

That kind of logic may be the difference between players re-signing or taking up offers elsewhere.

....or it could piss off the bloke who is 24th in line for a game (behind Murphy)

To be honest, I think a key aspect of Friday's win was Josh Honey's performance - we have been searching for the next small pressure forward, and from what I saw, he has all the makings.  For someone in just his third game (well, second if you only count game time), his first half was exceptional. 

And, he is the only Carlton player who has never played in a loss!

I was impressed with Honey's game too. He reads the play well, has a strong core, is quick, confident, and creative. Dare I say it, his development in the 2's has been sound.

I'll provide a different take on things....not necessarily one i believe, but a plausible one at least.

Perhaps the club nursing a player to 300 games sends a positive message to the playing group.
If you bust your butt for us, stay loyal to us, then we will have your back.

That kind of logic may be the difference between players re-signing or taking up offers elsewhere.

....or it could piss off the bloke who is 24th in line for a game (behind Murphy)

That bloke is likely number 35-40 on our list currently so they will get more opportunities (or have already had their papers stamped.

No worries. You could make a pretty solid case either way I reckon.

All the talk for future captain is around Walsh / Weitering. I wonder if Jack might be a bit of a smokey for the position, like his nonno ?

I'd have Jack in that conversation in a heartbeat. His commitment is enduring and motivation pure.

That bloke is likely number 35-40 on our list currently so they will get more opportunities (or have already had their papers stamped.

That bloke could've been LOB before last week.....or Honey.....or Kemp.

First 2 contributed last week.....who is to say Kemp couldn't too.

IMO, he's more like Sergio than Steve.

Should never have delisted Ben.

Should never have delisted Ben.

I was 50-50 at the time, and the only reason i was partially in favour of keeping him was because we had a big shortage in his position and he has good genes.

But in terms of what he had shown as a player (surname aside) it was probably less than LOB had shown before last week.

If he comes good, we can always re-draft him. Wonder if we can father/son him again?

I know it was just a poor attempt of sarcasm on my behalf..

👍😎

Ben will never make it.  Just no internal drive.

Ben will never make it.  Just no internal drive.

Inclined to agree, my gripe was he was delisted due to internal politics and not given the usual grace period that talls get to prove themselves especially with the arrival of CoVid. But he hasnt really shown much since leaving and its hard to make a case for him even with his pedigree. He was always viewed as a kid who had other interests outside football and maybe thats just how its played out with him. We gave Hugh Goddard the boot at the same time though, I thought logic might have said you keep at least one given we had/have no backup tall key defenders.

Ben will never make it.  Just no internal drive.

yep.

If you could put jacks attitude in bens body you'd have a Johnno brown.

Unfortunately Ben isn't there yet.  There's still time.  Look at kane lambert. 

Inclined to agree, my gripe was he was delisted due to internal politics and not given the usual grace period that talls get to prove themselves especially with the arrival of CoVid. But he hasnt really shown much since leaving and its hard to make a case for him even with his pedigree. He was always viewed as a kid who had other interests outside football and maybe thats just how its played out with him. We gave Hugh Goddard the boot at the same time though, I thought logic might have said you keep at least one given we had/have no backup tall key defenders.

And Macreadie too!

If Ben had no internal drive i doubt he'd be running around in the VFL desperately trying to get another chance. I hope he comes good. At his height there is still plenty of time up his sleeve.

If Ben had no internal drive i doubt he'd be running around in the VFL desperately trying to get another chance. I hope he comes good. At his height there is still plenty of time up his sleeve.

It’s good that you can see the desperation that no one else can, I do agree he has “some” time to develop that.

And Macreadie too!

Forgot about MacReadie, thought he started his career ok in difficult times but then hit a flat spot. If you are trying to grow your own KP defenders it made sense to keep at least one of the younger ones on the list as they take time.

Ben will never make it.  Just no internal drive.

A bit like the second Ablett son, Nathan.

Forgot about MacReadie, thought he started his career ok in difficult times but then hit a flat spot. If you are trying to grow your own KP defenders it made sense to keep at least one of the younger ones on the list as they take time.

He was the one I would have kept BUT he too was a glass man.

Knowing an Oscar Macdonald type was available it made sense to cut them all loose.  He's better than all of them. 

With respect to key defenders, IMO that mid-season draft should've been viewed as something to fill short term gaps/deficiencies....not pick a speculative type for the medium to long term. I know nothing about Jordan Boyd but would've thought we had his "type/size" reasonably covered and that a third tall was a better option given Marchbank was done. If/when one of Weitering or Jones goes down, as happened a few weeks ago, we have nobody to fill that gap...especially with McDonald also injured.

We need to win 3 of 3.

Freo have Brisbane in Perth, Eagles then St Kilda here (docklands). If they win all 3, they're in....but they're flaky. So expect one loss.

WCE have Dees in Perth, Dockers then Brsbane (possibly up there, otherwise here?) might win zero, might win 2. Win 2, they're in.

Saints have Syvegas here, Cats in Geelong, then Freo. Two wins at best.

Bombers have Bulldogs, Suns (up there possibly), Pies at the G. Two wins at best.

Tigers have North, Giants, Hawthorn - win all three and we win all three, they pip us most likely on %.

Totally agree with all of that. I reckon if we win all 3 we're still only about a 50% chance of making finals at best.

However, this season all of those mid-tier teams (like Carlton) have been so up and down that it is impossible to predict what will happen next. None of them are all that likely to go on a 3-0 run of wins - and certainly not Freo , WC or Rich - but who knows - we may as well have a crack.

With respect to key defenders, IMO that mid-season draft should've been viewed as something to fill short term gaps/deficiencies....not pick a speculative type for the medium to long term. I know nothing about Jordan Boyd but would've thought we had his "type/size" reasonably covered and that a third tall was a better option given Marchbank was done. If/when one of Weitering or Jones goes down, as happened a few weeks ago, we have nobody to fill that gap...especially with McDonald also injured.

Those mid season picks were bizarre.

With respect to key defenders, IMO that mid-season draft should've been viewed as something to fill short term gaps/deficiencies....not pick a speculative type for the medium to long term. I know nothing about Jordan Boyd but would've thought we had his "type/size" reasonably covered and that a third tall was a better option given Marchbank was done. If/when one of Weitering or Jones goes down, as happened a few weeks ago, we have nobody to fill that gap...especially with McDonald also injured.

Agree, 6 month contract plus the carrot of a future contract for the best state league kd you can find V a mid sized hb/wing… I know what my pick would have been.

If Ben had no internal drive i doubt he'd be running around in the VFL desperately trying to get another chance. I hope he comes good. At his height there is still plenty of time up his sleeve.

Yes, there’s no question about his drive and the time factor.  However, there is a question about our player development ... again.

Ben is performing consistently in the VFL and is an important part of what has become a pretty solid defence.

With respect to key defenders, IMO that mid-season draft should've been viewed as something to fill short term gaps/deficiencies....not pick a speculative type for the medium to long term. I know nothing about Jordan Boyd but would've thought we had his "type/size" reasonably covered and that a third tall was a better option given Marchbank was done. If/when one of Weitering or Jones goes down, as happened a few weeks ago, we have nobody to fill that gap...especially with McDonald also injured.

It’s hard to fathom the thinking behind the selection of Boyd.  Perhaps there simply wasn’t an AFL-standard KPP available.

It’s hard to fathom the thinking behind the selection of Boyd.  Perhaps there simply wasn’t an AFL-standard KPP available.

Yes, and as a player it looks like Boyd could become another Stocker but an even better kick, so I suppose they decided not the waste a pick on a low percentage chance that some speculative tall might come good.

Some of it will no doubt be dependant on what the long term plans are for players like Doc, Stocker, SPS, Williams, Martin, Carroll, Cottrell, Williamson, Kemp, etc., etc.. We talk about what might be their best positions or alternative positions, but we just do not know how that will evolve, the club we assume must already have a plan.

It’s hard to fathom the thinking behind the selection of Boyd.  Perhaps there simply wasn’t an AFL-standard KPP available.

I thought about this a little bit.

Boyd posesses what appears to be elite kicking skills.

Thats a great start.  We need midfield depth, so if Boyd can release Stocker/williams/saad to the wings and midfield, then we can trade an underperforming young player for draft picks, and stockpile for the future whilst hanging onto the kids that are actually important for us now and still have some upside (I dont see how all of Dow, SPS and Lochie O Brien stay on the list, and you can include a few people in that equation who havent really fired a shot yet).  

It means we get to future proof, also today proof as Boyd could be seen as a more ready to go player and we can see how he fits in socially this season (too bad he broke down).

The Key position players are a bit different.  They are more interchangeable when you start talking depth options, and we have our first choices in each rank.  We filled a young ruckman need in the Volleyballer anyway, so we werent going to pick up a ruck that could help us now, and future proof.

The noises we are and have been making from a list management perspective seem very much in a improve now, with an eye on the future, and I think by mid year the club came to terms with the fact that we werent really going to trouble the competitors this year and decided to look to building for next year.