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Poll

Will 2014 be big years for our maligned number 1 picks?

Bryce Gibbs will be a star of the competition
[ 6 ] (27.3%)
Matthew Kreuzer will be a star of the competition
[ 0 ] (0%)
Both Bryce Gibbs and Matthew Kreuzer will be stars of the competition
[ 10 ] (45.5%)
Neither will, they'll continue with what they always deliver
[ 6 ] (27.3%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Topic: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK? (Read 5492 times) previous topic - next topic
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Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

I'm going a bit early with this one.

Mainly because I expect, like every year, we'll hear reports about how they've come back from their break in incredible nick and how amazingly these guys are travelling during the preseason.

But every year, they come back to the fold and never consistently take the competition by the scruff of the neck.

So, for our number 1 picks who haven't lived up to the hype just yet, will 2014 be the first year where they move on to big things or will be it the case of the same old output?

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #1 –
Both will continue on the same path......Gibbs may improve if he plays on the ball and gets more responsibility but I dont see either of them ever being stars who dominate games..

Kruezer was rucking vs Lobbe of Port who isnt exactly a household name and didnt dominate or see much of the ball......he will always show glimpses but never be the player we thought he might be and the new theory you recruit ruckman after other teams break them in and develop them might be right..

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #2 –
I think it says a lot that Collingwood were able to draft Brody Grundy, who is basically another version of MK, with a virtual second round pick had the draft not been so compromised.

I love Kreuze and think he's still got plenty of development in him, but rucks don't hit their peak until they're about 28-30. It's a hell of a long time to wait for a #1 pick to come in and dominate.

Gibbs needs to be played midfield permanently, it's ridiculous that he isn't. He had 9 clearances on the weekend and has every tool to be amazing if he's just allowed to do his thing without being given ridiculous defensive jobs.
Just glad I'm old enough to have enjoyed the 1995 Grand Final

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #3 –
I'm optimistic that both will prove to be very valuable to our club !!
Mens sana in corpore sano - A healthy mind in a healthy body.

Navy, it's not just a color, it's an attitude !!!

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Both will continue on the same path......Gibbs may improve if he plays on the ball and gets more responsibility but I dont see either of them ever being stars who dominate games..

Kruezer was rucking vs Lobbe of Port who isnt exactly a household name and didnt dominate or see much of the ball......he will always show glimpses but never be the player we thought he might be and the new theory you recruit ruckman after other teams break them in and develop them might be right..
I've been thinking about it a bit this year, and the conclusion I came to is I would never draft a ruckman in the 1st 2 rounds. Use a 3rd rounder at best or a rookie pick and develop them, or like you say pinch them from another club.

While I think Kreuzer can be a very good player for us, I'm not sure he will ever live up to the expectations of a number 1 pick.
Mens sana in corpore sano - A healthy mind in a healthy body.

Navy, it's not just a color, it's an attitude !!!

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #5 –
I think most number 1 draft picks spend their entire career trying to live up to the expectation placed on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Football_League_Draft#Number_one_draft_picks

There is the list.

A few names jump out, but in 75% of cases, I think you would struggle to have them as the best player in that draft.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #6 –
That's true Thry, something I noticed though is that for every good/great ruckman that was ever drafted in the 1st round there is 1 or more good or better ruck drafted later on.

As we know it can take a number of years for a ruckman to develop and so it makes it harder to predict at the age of 17/18 which young rucks will become elite, and hence my reason why I wouldn't be spending high draft picks on them.
Mens sana in corpore sano - A healthy mind in a healthy body.

Navy, it's not just a color, it's an attitude !!!

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #7 –
I'm a big fan of Kreuze, but I'd have to concur that it is irresponsible to take a ruckman with a #1 pick. It's also unfair on Kruezer himself to be expected to be the #1 ruckman in the comp as a result, something that doesn't happen to mids. FWIW I still think he will be something special.  A quick look at all teams starting ruckman shows there is no shortage of quality at the low end of the draft

Jacobs- Rookie Draft
Leuenberger- #4
Kruezer- #1
Jolly- Rookie Draft
Ryder- #7
Sandilands- Rookie Draft
Smith- Zone selection
West- #31
Brogan- Rookie Draft
Hale- #7
Jamar- Rookie Draft
Goldstein- #37
Renouf- #24
Maric- #40
McEvoy- #9
Mumford-  Rookie Draft
Cox- Rookie Draft
Minson- #20

Gibbs has had a very good season this year and has enough upside to take it to the elite level.


IN WADA WE TRUST

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Amers on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Both will continue on the same path......Gibbs may improve if he plays on the ball and gets more responsibility but I dont see either of them ever being stars who dominate games..

Kruezer was rucking vs Lobbe of Port who isnt exactly a household name and didnt dominate or see much of the ball......he will always show glimpses but never be the player we thought he might be and the new theory you recruit ruckman after other teams break them in and develop them might be right..
I've been thinking about it a bit this year, and the conclusion I came to is I would never draft a ruckman in the 1st 2 rounds. Use a 3rd rounder at best or a rookie pick and develop them, or like you say pinch them from another club.

While I think Kreuzer can be a very good player for us, I'm not sure he will ever live up to the expectations of a number 1 pick.

I'm thinking the same.......Geelong imported Ottens, Swans stole Mumford, Pies got Jolly......all won premierships with these ruckman........even the Tigers improvement and finals berth is down to having Maric who they recruited from Port.
I was always keen on Kruzer so I cant complain about his recruitment but it makes you think if we got Cotchin and recruited Maric we would be better off now....but thats history .

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Quote from: Amers on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Both will continue on the same path......Gibbs may improve if he plays on the ball and gets more responsibility but I dont see either of them ever being stars who dominate games..

Kruezer was rucking vs Lobbe of Port who isnt exactly a household name and didnt dominate or see much of the ball......he will always show glimpses but never be the player we thought he might be and the new theory you recruit ruckman after other teams break them in and develop them might be right..
I've been thinking about it a bit this year, and the conclusion I came to is I would never draft a ruckman in the 1st 2 rounds. Use a 3rd rounder at best or a rookie pick and develop them, or like you say pinch them from another club.

While I think Kreuzer can be a very good player for us, I'm not sure he will ever live up to the expectations of a number 1 pick.

I'm thinking the same.......Geelong imported Ottens, Swans stole Mumford, Pies got Jolly......all won premierships with these ruckman........even the Tigers improvement and finals berth is down to having Maric who they recruited from Port.
I was always keen on Kruzer so I cant complain about his recruitment but it makes you think if we got Cotchin and recruited Maric we would be better off now....but thats history .

Ahhh I get your point. We should have had Cotchin instead of Kreuzer, and a pick/s we switched with the Eagles and not taken Judd. Kept Kennedy and Jacobs and we would be laughing by now.

I'll say it now, once and for all.

* We don't trade for players often enough. This leaves us with our list we have. Why didn't we go for Luke Ball when we heard he didn't have a job at the Saints ?

* We do a very ordinary job developing players. Our habbit is to throw them into the deep end and watch them drown. With some players we never really give them a chance at AFL at all. Limited exposure that is and this doesn't help them learn what pace they need to react to in the big world.

* We pick Mids when we need to top up on KPP's. Stack the squad with mids when we lack forwards and defenders.

* We pick med/tall types that are not really forwards or defenders. We don't balance out and take something to cover all positions.

* We take athletic types rather than genuine footballers. We hope they will turn into footy players.

* We pick players with disposal issues. Players that really can't kick. For how many years now.

* Our assistant coaches have been lacking. No real specialist instructors for forwards and rucks along with mids too. They haven't found a way to make players learn their roles properly in the past.

* We have never really had a game plan in the past. No direction on what to do on the field.

* We have been reluctant to drop players with behaviour issues, or players out of form. The same players were getting games week in week out while we scream the house down on this site.


This is just a drop in the ocean on our previous issues. A real club with the right culture, coaches (All coaches), and the right team plan for long term success could turn Gibbs and Kreuzer into complete superstars. Mark my words, complete superstars. With a clean out at the end of this season, and a top up of the right players and staff at the club will determine if this will happen with these 2 players. Judd, Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer are expected to carry the entire squad on their shoulders and this is unrealistic expectation. Take Cotchin, Martin, Jackson and Maric and let the two clubs swap these players for an entire season. The difference with this swap would be none for us, yet Richmond would finish as an almost finals favourite. Why ? Its easy. Richmond in general have a better work rate across the entire side. They also have a better settled Forward structure and the same goes in the D50m. Our players are head screwed because they don't really have a settled role. The Tigers are different because they do.

Don't get me wrong Richmond are not that good. I should have used Sydney, Collingwood or Hawthorn as an example. Great squads make good players better. ordinary sides make good players below average. Just look at Melbourne. Will Roos get them closer to a flag next season if he coaches them ? Clean out time Roos. Clean out time. You need to clean out the rubbish before you can build a new culture. Building this new culture builds a genuine force. Give us time to clean out all of the real rubbish and then the above players will become footy greats.

Our issues are not Gibbs and Kreuzer. Not at all. Our issues have stopped them from playing at their best. The expectations on them has been too high for too long. I have faith and back them both all the way. I saw something recently that makes me believe its all about to change. Call it a gut feeling or crazy boy mentality. ;)
This digital world is too much for us insects to understand.

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Mantis on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Quote from: Amers on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Both will continue on the same path......Gibbs may improve if he plays on the ball and gets more responsibility but I dont see either of them ever being stars who dominate games..

Kruezer was rucking vs Lobbe of Port who isnt exactly a household name and didnt dominate or see much of the ball......he will always show glimpses but never be the player we thought he might be and the new theory you recruit ruckman after other teams break them in and develop them might be right..
I've been thinking about it a bit this year, and the conclusion I came to is I would never draft a ruckman in the 1st 2 rounds. Use a 3rd rounder at best or a rookie pick and develop them, or like you say pinch them from another club.

While I think Kreuzer can be a very good player for us, I'm not sure he will ever live up to the expectations of a number 1 pick.

I'm thinking the same.......Geelong imported Ottens, Swans stole Mumford, Pies got Jolly......all won premierships with these ruckman........even the Tigers improvement and finals berth is down to having Maric who they recruited from Port.
I was always keen on Kruzer so I cant complain about his recruitment but it makes you think if we got Cotchin and recruited Maric we would be better off now....but thats history .

Ahhh I get your point. We should have had Cotchin instead of Kreuzer, and a pick/s we switched with the Eagles and not taken Judd. Kept Kennedy and Jacobs and we would be laughing by now.

I'll say it now, once and for all.

* We don't trade for players often enough. This leaves us with our list we have. Why didn't we go for Luke Ball when we heard he didn't have a job at the Saints ?

* We do a very ordinary job developing players. Our habbit is to throw them into the deep end and watch them drown. With some players we never really give them a chance at AFL at all. Limited exposure that is and this doesn't help them learn what pace they need to react to in the big world.

* We pick Mids when we need to top up on KPP's. Stack the squad with mids when we lack forwards and defenders.

* We pick med/tall types that are not really forwards or defenders. We don't balance out and take something to cover all positions.

* We take athletic types rather than genuine footballers. We hope they will turn into footy players.

* We pick players with disposal issues. Players that really can't kick. For how many years now.

* Our assistant coaches have been lacking. No real specialist instructors for forwards and rucks along with mids too. They haven't found a way to make players learn their roles properly in the past.

* We have never really had a game plan in the past. No direction on what to do on the field.

* We have been reluctant to drop players with behaviour issues, or players out of form. The same players were getting games week in week out while we scream the house down on this site.


This is just a drop in the ocean on our previous issues. A real club with the right culture, coaches (All coaches), and the right team plan for long term success could turn Gibbs and Kreuzer into complete superstars. Mark my words, complete superstars. With a clean out at the end of this season, and a top up of the right players and staff at the club will determine if this will happen with these 2 players. Judd, Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer are expected to carry the entire squad on their shoulders and this is unrealistic expectation. Take Cotchin, Martin, Jackson and Maric and let the two clubs swap these players for an entire season. The difference with this swap would be none for us, yet Richmond would finish as an almost finals favourite. Why ? Its easy. Richmond in general have a better work rate across the entire side. They also have a better settled Forward structure and the same goes in the D50m. Our players are head screwed because they don't really have a settled role. The Tigers are different because they do.

Don't get me wrong Richmond are not that good. I should have used Sydney, Collingwood or Hawthorn as an example. Great squads make good players better. ordinary sides make good players below average. Just look at Melbourne. Will Roos get them closer to a flag next season if he coaches them ? Clean out time Roos. Clean out time. You need to clean out the rubbish before you can build a new culture. Building this new culture builds a genuine force. Give us time to clean out all of the real rubbish and then the above players will become footy greats.

Our issues are not Gibbs and Kreuzer. Not at all. Our issues have stopped them from playing at their best. The expectations on them has been too high for too long. I have faith and back them both all the way. I saw something recently that makes me believe its all about to change. Call it a gut feeling or crazy boy mentality. ;)


Mants..dont disagree you need the right environment to develop players and if you look at Geelong for example its a fertile breeding ground for players...even a stiff like Dawson Simpson has been useful this season.
Its always hard to say with players if they had played for another club would they be better developed.....I think Kruezer and Gibbs have both been dissapointing but you are right in suggesting that all has not been right at our club and pressures have been increased due to the high expectations we place on players as carlton always has during successful era's had a glutful of stars and we all want that to be the case...problem is MK and Gibbs have not had the role models to follow and guide them wit the exception of Judd and the coaches have been about self preservation rather than development.

I am all about building a cycle of success like Geelong... a decade of strength where we are finals material every year and we have depth and any youth we bring in is assured of good role models and playing with successful players...it may not be a premeirship in the next 3-5 years but if you make the finals often enough you give yourself a chance and kids have that settled environment every year.
Its been tougher for MK and Gibbs but the real good players step up to the plate and deliver...you look at Gary Ablett jr and he could have taken the money and cruised at GC but he has delivered, led that team and stepped up even though their is no culture to fall back on, no senior players of any note....he is where the buck stops and he produces. I would just like to see our top draft picks do the same...
 

Re: Will 2014 Finally be the Year of BG and MK?

Reply #11 –
Sorry Elwood not having a dig up there.

I agree with almost all you have said, but I think Mick can manifest something with our 2. Garry had a set up at Geelong that helped him blitz. He didn't have to be the hard in under mid, but a free floating outsider that taught him how to use those legs. What a fine set of legs they are. Once he found his ability, moving on has actually helped him blitz because he has developed his leadership ability, and his desire to will himself at every opportunity. Ablett, Judd, Swan types come around once in a while. They are champs that will blitz on any stage at any club. They just have that inner desire 95% of footballers will never really have. I can't expect Gibbs to be as good as them, but he should be as good as Cotchin. Whether Mick knows how to flick the switch is the real question. This season he has flicked on at times and been an absolute dream. Its there Elwood. its in him. He is just too lazy to do it all the time. Doesn't want to get his hands dirty too often.

Gibbs, Yarran, Garlett, Betts, Murphy, etc. Notice the trend. Great potential amongst lazy character types. Notice they all appear shy types who would rather blend into the background, yet at full throttle can do anything on a footy field.

Yet, Simpson, Armfield, Curnow, Robinson will run and run all day and achieve little at times, yet their heart is in the right place, and they are prepared to get their hands dirty. Need to learn how to merge this mentality type into the heads of the above players and we are laughing.

Kreuzer on the other hand is shattered with his confidence and is starting to p1ss me off lately. He has the right mentality but can't mark a ball to save himself. Doesn't take the game on to play on. He would rather look back at another player and dish it off. Complete lack of belief type play.

I get your point Elwood and understand your reasoning. It does make sense and makes it hard for me to really argue. You sensible barstool. ;)
This digital world is too much for us insects to understand.