Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: townsendcalling on January 12, 2021, 10:46:13 pm

Title: Best 22 in 21
Post by: townsendcalling on January 12, 2021, 10:46:13 pm
Always interesting to see who the scribes believe are our best 22, with all things being equal.

Rebecca Williams (Herald Sun) has put her thoughts on paper.......

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc Murphy, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult

Interesting the omissions......Silvagni, Dow, O’Brien, Kennedy, Stocker, Kemp, Newman, Pittonet, Cunningham, Williamson, Gibbons, Cotrell.  Also, no room for Lachie Fogarty, Corey Durdin, Luke Parks, Jack Carroll along with Ramsay, Honey and Philp.

Whether you agree with the selected 22 or not, the depth is looking pretty good.

 
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on January 12, 2021, 11:26:33 pm
Pfft ... don't agree with her selections
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 13, 2021, 09:23:40 am
I would swap Williamson for Marchbank and Silvagni for McGovern ... and Betts is line ball.

Our depth is building but I will be happier when the likes of Newnes, Betts and Murphy have been forced out by youngsters and blokes like Plowman, the Curnows, Casboult, Setterfield and Fisher are under pressure to retain their spots.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: cookie2 on January 13, 2021, 09:30:53 am
Depth is building but I would be a lot more comfortable if a few of our younger guys could show some real improvement and consistency this year and really pressure for a spot. Agree with DJC that Williamson is a better bet, for me anyway, than Marchbank at the moment, but does need to show a bit more poise in his game. McGovern remains a worry.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Thryleon on January 13, 2021, 09:48:23 am
I understand she has gone with Marchbank on potential ability.

Williamson is todays round 1 selection based on their last 12 months its a no brainer, but Marchbanks best footy has him as a walk up start in our best 22.  I think we have forgotton how good he looked he was going to be.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 13, 2021, 09:56:44 am
I understand she has gone with Marchbank on potential ability.

Williamson is todays round 1 selection based on their last 12 months its a no brainer, but Marchbanks best footy has him as a walk up start in our best 22.  I think we have forgotton how good he looked he was going to be.

Marchbank needs to perform consistently and we will have serious competition for spots in defence.  Newman’s best should guarantee him a run too and then we have the youngsters like Stocker and Kemp as well as Williams if he doesn’t stack up as a midfielder.

With the exception of cover for Jones and Weitering (a stretch for Marchbank), I’m pretty happy with our depth in defence.  Hopefully, we’ll be saying the same for our forwards and midfielders before too long  :)
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 13, 2021, 11:24:13 am
Marchbank is over hyped imo, not a true KP player but a taller 3rd defender. I agree he will be seen as best 22 but imo he needs to prove he can stay on the park and play some VFL.
Like McGovern it's more about reputation than results with Marchbank and I have never seen anything that great that warrants a automatic selection in our best 22.
Williamson will be unlucky to miss as he battled most of 2020 but towards seasons end found some form and I think he is a very handy player.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2021, 11:36:33 am
The inclusion of Williams, Saad and Curnwow should see us playing finals.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on January 13, 2021, 11:48:06 am
Marchbank is over hyped imo, not a true KP player but a taller 3rd defender. I agree he will be seen as best 22 but imo he needs to prove he can stay on the park and play some VFL.
I think in our best team this guy is a wingmen, he's tall and a good overhead mark so they treat him like a KPD, but he's not strong body on body in the contest. So I'd put him somewhere he can use his overhe4ad ability and aerobic capacity and get him out of the pish and shove.

He's an icing type player, not filling.

Williamson will be unlucky to miss as he battled most of 2020 but towards seasons end found some form and I think he is a very handy player.
Agreed, this guy if he can keep himself healthy has a lot of upside, good footy brain and we do not have a lot of natural footballers in the side.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on January 13, 2021, 12:09:25 pm
The inclusion of Williams, Saad and Curnwow should see us playing finals.

One can but hope.  Some fundamental and ruthless scrutiny might be in order.  Eighth is unacceptable if we fall out after week one or two
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: WASurfer on January 13, 2021, 04:23:24 pm
Funny....I did the exercise myself the other day and had it pretty much exactly the same....apart from Charlie Curnow. Just worked on the assumption he won't be available for Round 1 and put Casboult in at CHF to play as back up ruckman....the IN I had was Gibbons. Similarly, probably had Marchbank in more on potential than anything else so line ball between him and Williamson. I had McGovern in the starting 18 and Gibbons on the bench.

I wasn't sold on Newnes early last season as his disposal was average...but as the season wore on, he was very reliable and deserves his spot...and he hit the scoreboard regularly too.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 13, 2021, 05:35:52 pm
Funny....I did the exercise myself the other day and had it pretty much exactly the same....apart from Charlie Curnow. Just worked on the assumption he won't be available for Round 1 and put Casboult in at CHF to play as back up ruckman....the IN I had was Gibbons. Similarly, probably had Marchbank in more on potential than anything else so line ball between him and Williamson. I had McGovern in the starting 18 and Gibbons on the bench.

I wasn't sold on Newnes early last season as his disposal was average...but as the season wore on, he was very reliable and deserves his spot...and he hit the scoreboard regularly too.
I think there is best 22 and then the round 1 team..McGovern will be in the starting team round 1 for sure given C.Curnow probably wont play IMO and McGovern will be given every opportunity by his mate Teague to prove his doubters wrong. Newnes did enough last season to start in the team and I think one of Fogarty or Durdin will play round 1 along with Williams and Saad. Levi will play down forward round 1 to try and keep the Tiger tall backs accountable and provide some ruck support.
Marchbank probably doesnt have a matchup round 1 but will play IMHO..
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 13, 2021, 06:21:39 pm
Funny....I did the exercise myself the other day and had it pretty much exactly the same....apart from Charlie Curnow. Just worked on the assumption he won't be available for Round 1 and put Casboult in at CHF to play as back up ruckman....the IN I had was Gibbons. Similarly, probably had Marchbank in more on potential than anything else so line ball between him and Williamson. I had McGovern in the starting 18 and Gibbons on the bench.

I wasn't sold on Newnes early last season as his disposal was average...but as the season wore on, he was very reliable and deserves his spot...and he hit the scoreboard regularly too.

I forgot about Gibbons.  He should play ahead of Betts.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 13, 2021, 07:58:56 pm
I would swap Williamson for Marchbank and Silvagni for McGovern ... and Betts is line ball.

Our depth is building but I will be happier when the likes of Newnes, Betts and Murphy have been forced out by youngsters and blokes like Plowman, the Curnows, Casboult, Setterfield and Fisher are under pressure to retain their spots.
Agree, Marchy will be a monty to be replaced (if he makes it to rnd 1). He'll be luck to string 1 or 2 games in row before he gets injured again. Zero faith in that bloke.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on January 13, 2021, 08:31:27 pm
He's nowhere near best 22
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on January 13, 2021, 08:49:30 pm
I don't know where i stand on Marchbank.

He is very talented and underrated....and i think a few have forgotten how good he can be.

However, he is often injured and cannot be relied upon to play each week.

We have pushed for a stable back 6, and his (perhaps) forced inclusion could jeopardize that.

Alternatively....
Does Williamson deserve to lose his spot from 2020?
Does Newman deserve to get his spot back from 2019?
Does Stocker deserve a chance in 2021?
Does SPS get pushed out of the back 6 despite Teague saying he will be playing there?

4 players who could/should misplace Marchbank from that lineup......and probably could add a few more if forced too....
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 13, 2021, 09:15:24 pm
I don't know where i stand on Marchbank.

He is very talented and underrated....and i think a few have forgotten how good he can be.

However, he is often injured and cannot be relied upon to play each week.

We have pushed for a stable back 6, and his (perhaps) forced inclusion could jeopardize that.

Alternatively....
Does Williamson deserve to lose his spot from 2020?No
Does Newman deserve to get his spot back from 2019?Yes
Does Stocker deserve a chance in 2021?Yes
Does SPS get pushed out of the back 6 despite Teague saying he will be playing there?Yes

4 players who could/should misplace Marchbank from that lineup......and probably could add a few more if forced too....
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on January 14, 2021, 05:00:22 am
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Milhanna13 on January 14, 2021, 10:13:03 am
Always interesting to see who the scribes believe are our best 22, with all things being equal.

Rebecca Williams (Herald Sun) has put her thoughts on paper.......

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc Murphy, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult

Interesting the omissions......Silvagni, Dow, O’Brien, Kennedy, Stocker, Kemp, Newman, Pittonet, Cunningham, Williamson, Gibbons, Cotrell.  Also, no room for Lachie Fogarty, Corey Durdin, Luke Parks, Jack Carroll along with Ramsay, Honey and Philp.

Whether you agree with the selected 22 or not, the depth is looking pretty good.

 

I reckon our depth, and our overall season will come down to the players she has left out.  If we can get some really good form from half of Dow, O’Brien, Stocker, Kemp, Cunningham, Williamson, Fogarty  (and i dont think this is an unrealistic expectation - they all have a chance to be really good AFL players), then we could really have something this year.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: madbluboy on January 14, 2021, 10:38:52 am
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?


Most teams have a back 15.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Professer E on January 14, 2021, 12:34:31 pm
MacGovern is only on the list because Charlie has knee problems.  Might be in round 1 but struggles to be in the best 30.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: WASurfer on January 14, 2021, 12:38:34 pm
Agreed Prof.....Charlie fit means him and McKay as key forwards and Levi as ruck/forward option. Unless McGovern is burning down the house in the VFL he doesn't deserve to be gifted a spot.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 14, 2021, 02:50:36 pm
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?


Even with reduced rotations, you would have at least  one defender on the interchange and several others able to fill in as required.  At least 10 and as many as 15 of the 22 able to play as dedicated defenders.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on January 14, 2021, 04:34:22 pm
Even with reduced rotations, you would have at least  one defender on the interchange and several others able to fill in as required.  At least 10 and as many as 15 of the 22 able to play as dedicated defenders.

I get that at least 1 bench player is a defender.
I get that there is a team defense

However, suggesting any team, even clarko's teams, have 15 'defenders' is just stupidity.
You have midfielders.....who run both ways....but are not defenders.
You have forwards.....who chase....but are not defenders.
You have rucks.....who are just rucks.

If you instill a 'defend first, attack second' mindset into your players....by picking 15 defenders.....then you are instilling a reactionary mindset into your team, and you have already lost the battle.

Our back 6 (or 7) are not the problem. We have back 6 capable players that are not going to be getting games because we simply cannot play them all.
Our team lacks in other areas.
- Midfielders who can hit a target by foot.
- Forwards who can lead correctly and impact the scoreboard consistently.
These positions are NOT made up of 'defenders' no matter which way you slice it.

So no, we will not play every player G2C mentioned in the same team because that is not how you pick a team, no matter how many 'defenders' you think a team requires.

Saad, Docherty, Plowman, Newman, SPS, Willo, Marchbank, Stocker....can not and will not all play in the same team. Some may play on a wing, or midfield on occassions.......maybe 1 will for the whole year....but there will be weeks where at least 1 of them, and up to 3 of them (depending on injuries) will be playing 2's.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: jeza on January 14, 2021, 05:32:04 pm
Always interesting to see who the scribes believe are our best 22, with all things being equal.

Rebecca Williams (Herald Sun) has put her thoughts on paper.......

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc Murphy, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult

Interesting the omissions......Silvagni, Dow, O’Brien, Kennedy, Stocker, Kemp, Newman, Pittonet, Cunningham, Williamson, Gibbons, Cotrell.  Also, no room for Lachie Fogarty, Corey Durdin, Luke Parks, Jack Carroll along with Ramsay, Honey and Philp.

Whether you agree with the selected 22 or not, the depth is looking pretty good.


Surely Williamson can force his way in ahead of one of those? Plowman hopefully. I'd have Newman ahead of him also.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 15, 2021, 12:17:04 am
I get that at least 1 bench player is a defender.
I get that there is a team defense

However, suggesting any team, even clarko's teams, have 15 'defenders' is just stupidity.
You have midfielders.....who run both ways....but are not defenders.
You have forwards.....who chase....but are not defenders.
You have rucks.....who are just rucks.

If you instill a 'defend first, attack second' mindset into your players....by picking 15 defenders.....then you are instilling a reactionary mindset into your team, and you have already lost the battle.

Our back 6 (or 7) are not the problem. We have back 6 capable players that are not going to be getting games because we simply cannot play them all.
Our team lacks in other areas.
- Midfielders who can hit a target by foot.
- Forwards who can lead correctly and impact the scoreboard consistently.
These positions are NOT made up of 'defenders' no matter which way you slice it.

So no, we will not play every player G2C mentioned in the same team because that is not how you pick a team, no matter how many 'defenders' you think a team requires.

Saad, Docherty, Plowman, Newman, SPS, Willo, Marchbank, Stocker....can not and will not all play in the same team. Some may play on a wing, or midfield on occassions.......maybe 1 will for the whole year....but there will be weeks where at least 1 of them, and up to 3 of them (depending on injuries) will be playing 2's.

I'm not suggesting that we have 15 players rotating through our defence.  What I am suggesting is that we have 10-15 players who can play dedicated defensive roles.

For example, against Brisbane last season, our back six was eight players; Polson, Jones, Weitering, Petrevski-Seton, McGovern, Simpson, Williamson and Plowman (Williamson played most of the game on the wing but did have time in defence).  Lets swap Polson and Simpson for Docherty and Saad, move McGovern forward and bring Newman or Marchbank in to take his place.  We still have eight defenders, one of whom will spend a fair bit of time on the wing.  If necessary, we can swing Casboult, McGovern, Williams or Newnes, or Silvagni, Kemp and Stocker if they are in the 22, into defence.  All have played there or are earmarked as defenders.  That's at least 12 of our 22 who could reasonably be expected to play in defence and you could throw in C Curnow, McKay and De Koning if necessary. 

Will we play 8 blokes in the backline?  Definitely!  Will we play 10 blokes in the backline?  Possibly, depending on the circumstances, injuries, etc. Will we play 14 or 15?  Highly unlikely, but we could if we had to.

And then there's the extra number behind the ball to enable Docherty to play as a loose man.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 16, 2021, 02:05:14 pm
@^^^^
How many players have you got in your back 6?
Willo, Newman....
Weiteiring, Jones....
Docherty...saad....plowman...
Stocker....Marchbank....?

For craps and giggles:

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank WIllo

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc MurphyStocker, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes Marc Murphy,

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton,  Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on January 16, 2021, 06:14:33 pm
For craps and giggles:

BEST 22 FOR NEXT SEASON:

FB: Lachie Plowman, Liam Jones, Caleb Marchbank WIllo

HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Adam Saad

C: Marc MurphyStocker, Ed Curnow, Sam Walsh

HF: Jack Martin, Charlie Curnow, Jack Newnes Marc Murphy,

FF: Zac Fisher, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Tom De Koning, Patrick Cripps, Zac Williams

IC: Sam Petrevski-Seton,  Mitch McGovern, Will Setterfield, Levi Casboult
Newman?

Gibbons?
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 16, 2021, 07:01:00 pm
Newman?

Gibbons?
Gibbons I am not a big fan of but I guess Betts will struggle to get on the park this year then Gibbons takes his spot. If Durdin comes on quick as people predict, both the afore mentioned lose their spot. As for Newman, I think he'll struggle to get a spot, he wants to coach anyway so if his playing career ends early, he has a path he wants to follow mapped out. Its a brutal business, given where we MUST get to, we will make some rutheless/brutal calls.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: crashlander on January 16, 2021, 08:46:51 pm
I haven't put forward a best 22 because I'm not sure we have one.
That might sound like a cop out, but I do have my reasons.
[1] The ruck:
Until de Koning develops into the ruckman we all hope he will be, he is going to unsuited to some of his opponents. The man to help fill the breach is Pittonet, as he showed last year. I think we will have to play both of them quite often, even though the team structure works better with 1 ruck.
That already puts restrictions on our best 22.

[2] Our best forward line is yet to be determined. One of the big factors in that is the fitness or otherwise of Charlie Curnow and Eddie Betts. In form versions of Curnow and Betts makes our forward line a very exciting beast. But we cannot depend on them holding up week in, week out. Hopefully Murphy will spend more time forward, which also helps our structure. But we will be playing a lot of guys through the forward line and the midfield, as we have lots of options. There is also the apparent thought that Fisher should play more forward.
Tall forwards are also a question: we could fill the entire forward half with tall forwards who may well deserve games. H must play: he is the key forward of the future. Casboult probably should, unless we have injuries in defence. He is one of the best marks in the business and his kicking has improved a lot. Charlie Curnow, Jack Silvagni, a potential resting ruckman ...
You see the problem. Remember, Cripps will also spend time forward as our midfield becomes less dependent on him.

[3] The defence:
The 2 tall defenders pick themselves, but backup for them is looking decidedly thin. hence the idea of having Casboult play in defence if needed.
The question also arises if we come up against teams with 3 key marking forwards. Do we rob Peter to pay Paul?
Mid sized defenders were have. Smaller, quicker defenders are on the rise. But who to play? We have more guys than we have spots to fill. Form and injury will determine who gets on, and form rarely stays constant. Plowman is one of the first picked. Then there is Docherty. Then Saad and Williamson and Stocker and ... Very hard to pick who will be our best fit. Personally, I think we should pick our defence on a horses for courses basis, than just playing the same guys each week. The attacks we come across will offer different challenges and we must take them into account if we are to match up best.

[4] Midfield:
Cripps is the Bull. Hopefully he will be back at his best this year. Walsh is moving into the square more regularly and is top notch. Williams is the x-factor. Jack Martin will be spending more time in the midfield. Then we have our up and comers. Hopefully at least one of them can step up in 2021. All of a sudden, we don't look so thin there. Ed Curnow is an excellent stopper and will be in the midfield. Cottrell? He could be the next stopper on our list, as he certainly had the athletic qualities to do the job.
The actual structure of our 'best' midfield will depend on who steps up. Fogarty? Dow? Carroll? Newnes? Setterfield? Gibbons? O'Brien? Kennedy? Kemp?

I find it fascinating that we have so much choice. I really hope that some of the kids step up and put pressure on the guys who played in 2020. We also have a number of guys coming back from serious injury. Our 'best' team will depend on who can stay fit, who is in form, what structure we need and how well we can match up with our opponents. I will be happy enough to work out who was our best combo at the end of 2021 when I have the statistics to back it up. Until then ... :)
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 16, 2021, 11:20:02 pm
Great post Crash!

I wonder if our MC would be brave enough to pick the 22 best able to take on our opposition each week.  That would mean Pittonet one week, De Koning the next, Marchbank in for Samo one week and Newman in for Marchy the week after.

That would mean a best 15 or 16 that are walk up starts and nine or ten who are in contention each week.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Thryleon on January 16, 2021, 11:25:37 pm
Just a reminder that hawthorn won a flag with a bunch of also ran key defenders.

Brian Lake was the only proper key position defender they had aside from chip Frawley.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 17, 2021, 01:04:10 am
Just a reminder that hawthorn won a flag with a bunch of also ran key defenders.

Brian Lake was the only proper key position defender they had aside from chip Frawley.

Lake did win the Norm Smith Medal and he did have a few spuds like Hodge, Gibson, Birchall, Stratton, Mitchell and Burgoyne helping out.  Don't forget that Gibson had a great record against Buddy Franklin.  Frawley was a bit player in their 2015 premiership.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 17, 2021, 09:07:21 am
Great post Crash, superb in fact. One of the things for me is that I think Stocker may need to form part of the midfield group. The idea of playing him in defence "to learn" the game doesn't make a lot of sense to me (but what would I know). He is a hard nosed, uncompromising mid first and foremost and we moved heaven and earth to secure him. Play him in the guts, his attributes are exactly what we need there.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Thryleon on January 17, 2021, 09:18:02 am
Lake did win the Norm Smith Medal and he did have a few spuds like Hodge, Gibson, Birchall, Stratton, Mitchell and Burgoyne helping out.  Don't forget that Gibson had a great record against Buddy Franklin.  Frawley was a bit player in their 2015 premiership.
yes but how many of them are key position players?
Gibson 189cm
Stratton 189cm
Birchall 193cm

The rest are a similar sized bunch of midgets.  We don't need to find the next big thing to help out our defense.  We wouldn't want to go in without Liam and Jacob very frequently but hawthorn managed to win 3 flags in a row because they had consistency in their lineup, consistency in how players played roles, and a bit of luck (which all successful teams need) that breakdowns were few and far between.  There were quite a few unsung heros in their teams.  We have a few players that fit that bill if they could stop breaking down.

The point in making is that without Brian Lake hawthorn were a team of short defenders and we are not.

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on January 17, 2021, 09:56:22 am
Good work Crash.

I've run into similar problems with picking a best 22, and as you eluded to, it all starts with the ruck.

TDK or Pittonet.....or both?
If both, do we have room for Casboult?
If we play Casboult, then surely we can't play Charlie, Harry and Mitch as well.
We might even struggle to play Charlie and Harry with Casboult.....and both rucks.

If we can't fit in either Casboult or McGovern and we get an injury down back, what cover do we have (mid-game?).

No matter which way you slice it, there will be AFL level 'taller players' who cannot fit into our best 22 each week.

I reckon we have a similar problem with our smaller defenders.
Pick 6 players to go with Jones/Weitering to play as defenders...
Docherty, Newman, Plowman, Marchbank, Saad, SPS, Willo, Stocker....

You can see that to fit them in you are already using wing/bench spots (to get to 6) and you still can't fit that list entire list of defenders in.

These teams are all based on previous years efforts too.
But what about a kid coming in and earning/demanding a spot?
What about if any/all of Dow, LoB, Kemp, Fogarty breaking the door down?? Who makes way then?


Yes, injuries will always 'help' us pick a best 22.....but i reckon we have a best 30....with a few more players who could easily play AFL outside of that.

Teague likes to have a stable team....which has its advantages.
However, personally i think you should always pick your team that matches up on the opposition best....without handicapping yourself in the process. With that in mind, we have a lot of flexibility with our team selections and overall team 'style'.
We can play supertall. (pick TDK, Pittonet, Casboult, Harry, Charlie, Jones, Weitering....Mcgovern)
We can play bigger bodied. (pick Cripps, Setterfield, Ed, Williams, Kennedy, Silvagni...)
We can play smaller and quicker (Pick Dow, LoB, Owies, Honey....

We can change our team, and our game plan, on a week to week basis to suit our opponents.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: cookie2 on January 17, 2021, 10:42:21 am
I am keen to see how TDK develops this year. Once he has reached the minimum maturity level needed I think he will greatly reduce our present need to keep Casboult on the list. Levi is mainly there as  insurance for now imo.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 17, 2021, 01:15:56 pm
yes but how many of them are key position players?
Gibson 189cm
Stratton 189cm
Birchall 193cm

The rest are a similar sized bunch of midgets.  We don't need to find the next big thing to help out our defense.  We wouldn't want to go in without Liam and Jacob very frequently but hawthorn managed to win 3 flags in a row because they had consistency in their lineup, consistency in how players played roles, and a bit of luck (which all successful teams need) that breakdowns were few and far between.  There were quite a few unsung heros in their teams.  We have a few players that fit that bill if they could stop breaking down.

The point in making is that without Brian Lake hawthorn were a team of short defenders and we are not.



Some blokes play taller.  Gibson certainly did and in years gone by we had Doull (185cm) and Dean (186cm) as key defenders.  And then there's Marchbank at 193cm who struggles to compete against the bigger forwards.  We played McGovern  (191cm) in defence against Brisbane last season and their tall forwards had a picnic against him.

Most teams these days have at least two very large key forwards, and probably a second ruck, in their forward line.  Jones and Weitering can match it with any of them, Plowman (191cm) is competitive against even the tallest, but then our next option is Casboult.

We do have plenty of depth with our medium and small defenders but we will struggle if we lose a key defender or ruckman.  As much as I think that he could be a waste of space, Oscar McDonald (196cm) would have to be leading the race for the last spot on our list.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Thryleon on January 17, 2021, 05:49:03 pm
Some blokes play taller.  Gibson certainly did and in years gone by we had Doull (185cm) and Dean (186cm) as key defenders.  And then there's Marchbank at 193cm who struggles to compete against the bigger forwards.  We played McGovern  (191cm) in defence against Brisbane last season and their tall forwards had a picnic against him.

Most teams these days have at least two very large key forwards, and probably a second ruck, in their forward line.  Jones and Weitering can match it with any of them, Plowman (191cm) is competitive against even the tallest, but then our next option is Casboult.

We do have plenty of depth with our medium and small defenders but we will struggle if we lose a key defender or ruckman.  As much as I think that he could be a waste of space, Oscar McDonald (196cm) would have to be leading the race for the last spot on our list.

My other point is, that its all match up dependent.

Marchbank can do most but the tallest.  Ditto Mcgovern and like you said Plowman.

Thing is, if we can restrict the number of looks opposition forwards get it wont matter anyway.

Hawthorn had a team defense and thats why they got away with smaller talls in defense.  Gibson was an interceptor, not a man marker.  If Marchbank can play that role for us, it will be fine.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 17, 2021, 07:08:39 pm
My other point is, that its all match up dependent.

Marchbank can do most but the tallest.  Ditto Mcgovern and like you said Plowman.

Thing is, if we can restrict the number of looks opposition forwards get it wont matter anyway.

Hawthorn had a team defense and thats why they got away with smaller talls in defense.  Gibson was an interceptor, not a man marker.  If Marchbank can play that role for us, it will be fine.


I would be very happy if we tweaked our defence each week so that we match up well against every opposition forward line.  My main concern is that our team defence often meant that Weitering or Jones found themselves minding a small forward (which is fine) and Samo, Simmo or Willo were trying to stop a gorilla (which is far from fine).  Hopefully, the backline coach will have sorted that out and our defenders can switch back to their preferred opponent ASAP.

I'm not convinced that McGovern can take a key forward.  He was exposed in that role against Brisbane and I think his forte in defence is intercept marking.  Of course, his performance may just have been a continuation of his poor form and he could do well forward or back this season.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: townsendcalling on January 17, 2021, 07:36:49 pm
We can change our team, and our game plan, on a week to week basis to suit our opponents.

I look forward to the day when we maintain our successful game plan and solid crew of 24 or so players and OTHER teams are forced to adjust against us!  THAT is progress!!
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Baggers on January 17, 2021, 08:27:49 pm
I look forward to the day when we maintain our successful game plan and solid crew of 24 or so players and OTHER teams are forced to adjust against us!  THAT is progress!!

As I mentioned last year, I don't buy into the 'best 22'. To me it is a best 25-31... with a backbone starting 16 - the core. Many have said that to be top 4 and a contender it is the strength of your 'last picked 6' who have a big say in ultimate success.

Assuming all are fit and in form, my 16 'core' players would be:

Cripps
McKay
Jones
Docherty
Walsh
Martin
Weitering
C Curnow
E Curnow
Setterfield
Williams
Saad
DeKoning
Casboult
Fisher
SPS

The next 6 would come from (and rounding out our best 25 - 22/3 emergencies)
Silvagni
Murphy
McGovern
Betts
Plowman
Marchbank
Williamson
Gibbons
Newman

Then those rounding out to 28:
Kennedy
Pittonet
Newnes


Last chance brigade (any of whom could move up to being in the top 25 by year's end):
Dow
O'Brien
Cunningham

That's not a bad first 31.


And the unknowns (with fingers crossed for strong advancement):
Kemp
Stocker
Philp
Ramsay
Honey
Owies
Cottrell
Carroll
Durdin
Fogarty
Parks

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 17, 2021, 11:16:43 pm
I like that approach Baggers ... but Murphy would be in my first 16 and Cuningham would be 18th picked (after Plowman).

Fisher would drop out of the first 16 and Newnes would have to be in the next six.

Hopefully, several of the unknowns will have displaced more established players before the bye.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: tonyo on January 18, 2021, 04:00:15 pm
yes but how many of them are key position players?
Gibson 189cm
Stratton 189cm
Birchall 193cm

The rest are a similar sized bunch of midgets.  We don't need to find the next big thing to help out our defense.  We wouldn't want to go in without Liam and Jacob very frequently but hawthorn managed to win 3 flags in a row because they had consistency in their lineup, consistency in how players played roles, and a bit of luck (which all successful teams need) that breakdowns were few and far between.  There were quite a few unsung heros in their teams.  We have a few players that fit that bill if they could stop breaking down.

The point in making is that without Brian Lake hawthorn were a team of short defenders and we are not.



Defenders' lives are so much easier when they are playing behind a strong and ruthless midfield and forward line who don't let the ball travel down the ground with any speed.

The Hawthorn midfield and half forward line of that era were a dominant bunch who made sure that the ball was more likely to go forward at each stoppage.  Once it was in their forward half, Hodge martialled a wall to keep it that way.  And if they didn't have the ball, they squeezed super hard until a mistake was forced.

Accordingly, Gibson, Stratton, Birchall et al didn't have to contend with the ball sky-rocketing into their zones with a bunch of one-on-ones.  It was far more controlled than that, and easier to group-defend (Gibson's favourite job was third man up...).

Defence is not just about defenders -  it's about forwards and midfielders putting pressure on their respective opponents and covering each other's butts.  When that doesn't happen, the defenders are faced with an avalanche that is almost impossible to stop. 
.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 18, 2021, 04:23:26 pm
Birchall doesnt/didnt defend he is purely a rebounder IMO.....Gibson played taller against certain opponents where he could use his pace and fitness and thats why he was handy vs Buddy but you wouldnt have him on players like Lynch, Hawkins, Dixon and expect him to cope. I think one of our main problems is small defenders and finding ones who can defend and not just rebound.
Saad doesnt like having to man up, Docherty and Simpson both like to work of their man and thats why small forwards have worried us over the years.
I'm interested in our round 1 team and wanting to know can we get away with a player like Marchbank down back vs one of the Tigers smalls given they only play two KP forwards with four smalls and Martin every now and then.
You really have to adjust your backline each week to get the match ups right and you probably need a back 8-10 who you can pick from to find the right combo's.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: tragic123 on January 18, 2021, 05:34:13 pm
Hi ElwoodBlues1 - I agree you need to be flexible to match your opponents but i disagree that 8-10 are required.

I believe 7 -8 players to choose from should be sufficient. If you look at all the top teams their backline is stable every week and the mix of players is able to cover the opposition no matter the make up of their forward line. If you look at Richmond Nathan Broad/Grimes Balta are just able to do enough against talls to get the ball to ground/mark or even match up on smaller players.

I agree that some of our current defenders aren't flexible enough to match up on most types. Plowman plays better on the smaller types as he is not very good overhead. I think if Marchbank is ever able to play a full season he will assist with our match ups.

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 18, 2021, 07:36:41 pm
Birchall doesnt/didnt defend he is purely a rebounder IMO.....Gibson played taller against certain opponents where he could use his pace and fitness and thats why he was handy vs Buddy but you wouldnt have him on players like Lynch, Hawkins, Dixon and expect him to cope. I think one of our main problems is small defenders and finding ones who can defend and not just rebound.
Saad doesnt like having to man up, Docherty and Simpson both like to work of their man and thats why small forwards have worried us over the years.
I'm interested in our round 1 team and wanting to know can we get away with a player like Marchbank down back vs one of the Tigers smalls given they only play two KP forwards with four smalls and Martin every now and then.
You really have to adjust your backline each week to get the match ups right and you probably need a back 8-10 who you can pick from to find the right combo's.
EB what cunning kents like Clarkson and Hardwick do is come up with styles and tactics you mention above that force the other mob to match up to them or try and contain them. Why can't our mob come with something radical and left field to keep the oppo guessing for a change. Carlton coaches always try and make the players conform to something they can't execute well enough for long enough. Come up with radical tactics that match the strengths and assets of our group that will cause problems for others.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 18, 2021, 09:12:15 pm
Hi ElwoodBlues1 - I agree you need to be flexible to match your opponents but i disagree that 8-10 are required.

I believe 7 -8 players to choose from should be sufficient. If you look at all the top teams their backline is stable every week and the mix of players is able to cover the opposition no matter the make up of their forward line. If you look at Richmond Nathan Broad/Grimes Balta are just able to do enough against talls to get the ball to ground/mark or even match up on smaller players.

I agree that some of our current defenders aren't flexible enough to match up on most types. Plowman plays better on the smaller types as he is not very good overhead. I think if Marchbank is ever able to play a full season he will assist with our match ups.


Gday Tragic, I think Grimes and players like Broad, Vlastuin, Balta can play on a greater range of opponents, think I remember Grimes even playing on Eddie Betts in one game. Our blokes are not as flexible and I think we need a slightly larger pool of players to choose from to get the matchups right. ie Marchbank isnt going to be able to handle a Rioli, Castagna, Butler type or a Tom Lynch but I could probably put Tom Williamson on a small quicker player and get a better result. I'm also including players like Stocker, Oscar McDonald(if drafted in), Casboult, Newman as part of my backline group. You need injury backup as well as the ability to rotate players who are performing poorly on the day. Zac Williams is half back flanker by trade and he may have to go back at some stage depending on our needs so thats why I think we need about ten players in the mix with a core of say 5 players who are regular starters down back.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 19, 2021, 09:32:43 am
Hi ElwoodBlues1 - I agree you need to be flexible to match your opponents but i disagree that 8-10 are required.

I believe 7 -8 players to choose from should be sufficient. If you look at all the top teams their backline is stable every week and the mix of players is able to cover the opposition no matter the make up of their forward line. If you look at Richmond Nathan Broad/Grimes Balta are just able to do enough against talls to get the ball to ground/mark or even match up on smaller players.

I agree that some of our current defenders aren't flexible enough to match up on most types. Plowman plays better on the smaller types as he is not very good overhead. I think if Marchbank is ever able to play a full season he will assist with our match ups.

We generally have 8 players rotating through the backline; six starting backs, one on the bench and one alternating between wing and the backline.  If we cop an injury, or we have to move a player (for positive or negative reasons), we need another couple of players who can play in defence.  Depending on the 22, we will have 8 players who will play in defence for all or part of the game, as well as Williams, McGovern, Newnes, Casboult, etc who are competent defenders.

We do need a stable defence and, like EB, I think that we should have a settled core - I would go for Weitering, Jones, Docherty, Plowman and Saad - with Petrevski-Seton, Williamson, Marchbank, Newman and, hopefully, Stocker and Kemp in regular contention for the other three defensive spots.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Pratty on January 19, 2021, 07:34:28 pm
B: Saad, Jones, Plowman
Hb: Williamson, Weitering, Docherty
C: Murphy, Cripps, E.Curnow
Hf: Martin, Casboult, Gibbons
F: Betts, McKay, Fisher
Foll: De Koning, Williams
Rov: Walsh
I/c: Fogarty, Petrevski-Seton, Setterfield, Silvagni
Emerg: Durdin, Cuningham, Pittonet, Dow

*Newman, C.Curnow, Marchbank, Kemp ? over injury/fitness

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 21, 2021, 10:57:45 am
Some thoughts from Johnny Barker:

Quote
The Blues' midfield coach John Barker is adamant that [Zac] Williams' speed makes him perfectly suited to playing an explosive role in a midfield already well stocked with raging bulls and endurance beasts.

"He is an electric footballer," Barker said.

"I don't think his tank is going to be an issue at all. We're happy with his burst ability and his repeat speed and it is great to have a midfield with a diverse mix of running abilities."

The 26-year-old Williams brings to Carlton a quality they have lacked, with skipper Patrick Cripps a big-bodied contested-ball genius and Sam Walsh emerging as an elite inside-outside hybrid.

Add to that trio some depth in Marc Murphy, Will Setterfield, Matt Kennedy, Ed Curnow and Jack Newnes, as well as some unfulfilled promise in Paddy Dow, Lachie Fogarty, David Cuningham and Sam Philp, and Barker has plenty of players who can ease the load that Cripps' surgically repaired shoulders have carried.

Whether Williams becomes a free agent to change the club's fortunes, as some others have, remains to be seen but the Blues aren't seeing him as that type of recruit anyway.

Barker said he adds to the mix which will make the Blues less reliant on Cripps to win contested ball in congestion in 2021 and more able to work their way cleanly from congestion than they have been able to in recent seasons.

The mix presents Carlton with the chance to move Cripps forward more often. Most importantly, it will allow Carlton to shift their shape around the ball, making them much less predictable to opponents.

Cripps didn't need much convincing as to what adjustments were necessary to improve the team.

"The great thing about 'Crippa' is that team is everything to him so he will play his role when he has to defensively and he doesn't always have to be the bull," Barker said.

"He is good with that because he knows there is a place we are trying to get to and that is going to help us get there."

The Blues' Jack Martin is also training with the midfield group at the moment as his toughness and versatility is an asset and Barker is supremely confident Dow can eventually become the player supporters hoped he could when he was chosen at pick three in the 2017 national draft.

"He's a good player. He just has to put it together," Barker said.

So, Williams is shaping up as the midfielder we were hoping for and Martin will spend more time in the midfield.

It would be helpful for our best 22 selections if we knew who was training with each group  :)
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 11:54:31 am
Some thoughts from Johnny Barker:

So, Williams is shaping up as the midfielder we were hoping for and Martin will spend more time in the midfield.

I t would be helpful for our best 22 selections if we knew who was training with each group  :)
FWIW, I think playing Martin for bursts in the midfield is a no-brainer, as long as we do not expect defensive run from him, a stint in the midfield sets him free from defenders and there are few midfield opponents or taggers who could match him overhead if he floats into F50 as a option from out of the midfield.

Of course our lot hitting him as a target is a whole different kettle of fish! ::)
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on January 21, 2021, 04:22:41 pm
FWIW, I think playing Martin for bursts in the midfield is a no-brainer, as long as we do not expect defensive run from him, a stint in the midfield sets him free from defenders and there are few midfield opponents or taggers who could match him overhead if he floats into F50 as a option from out of the midfield.

Of course our lot hitting him as a target is a whole different kettle of fish! ::)

One reason why I may have been too quick to write Eddie off; he does hit targets  :)
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on February 17, 2021, 03:30:49 pm
The Inner Sanctum has the following as our Round 1 line-up:

B: Lachie Plowman – Liam Jones – Tom Williamson

HB: Sam Docherty – Jacob Weitering – Adam Saad

C: Jack Newnes – Patrick Cripps – David Cuningham

HF: Jack Martin – Levi Casboult – Marc Murphy

F: Zac Fisher – Harry McKay – Michael Gibbons

R: Marc Pittonet – Sam Walsh – Zac Williams

I/C: Sam Petrevski-Seton – Ed Curnow – Will Setterfield – Nic Newman        

https://www.theinnersanctum.com.au/afl-2021-season-preview-carlton/?fbclid=IwAR07ZnLETQKXZnVQkY33gddQSMbZMy1igVe8qGa021cRes4Nn-Qlljt7DGA

I reckon that's got to be close to the mark.

 
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2021, 04:13:10 pm
I think Durdin or Fogarty will play round 1 and would probably replace Cuningham in that team.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on February 17, 2021, 04:17:14 pm
I think Durdin or Fogarty will play round 1 and would probably replace Cuningham in that team.
Cunningham looks surely to become another Carazzo type, and come good at another club!

He looks like he needs the shot across the bow.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on February 17, 2021, 04:20:57 pm
Reckon Betts plays if fit.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2021, 04:26:42 pm
Cunningham looks surely to become another Carazzo type, and come good at another club!

He looks like he needs the shot across the bow.
Squeeze is on as we have a better list of players and its harder to find automatics to delete. Cuninghams best is good enough but we have all discussed him at length over the years and I'd say this has to be his year or he will be traded/delisted/rookied.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on February 17, 2021, 04:55:18 pm
I think Durdin or Fogarty will play round 1 and would probably replace Cuningham in that team.

Teague is a big fan of Cuners.  He'll play round 1 unless injured.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 17, 2021, 05:05:27 pm
The Inner Sanctum has the following as our Round 1 line-up:

B: Lachie Plowman – Liam Jones – Tom Williamson

HB: Sam Docherty – Jacob Weitering – Adam Saad

C: Jack Newnes – Patrick Cripps – David Cuningham

HF: Jack Martin – Levi Casboult – Marc Murphy

F: Zac Fisher – Harry McKay – Michael Gibbons

R: Marc Pittonet – Sam Walsh – Zac Williams

I/C: Sam Petrevski-Seton – Ed Curnow – Will Setterfield – Nic Newman        

https://www.theinnersanctum.com.au/afl-2021-season-preview-carlton/?fbclid=IwAR07ZnLETQKXZnVQkY33gddQSMbZMy1igVe8qGa021cRes4Nn-Qlljt7DGA

I reckon that's got to be close to the mark.

 
No Gov, no Jack S, no Dow. 8 defenders, 9 if you count Zac W based on a previous life. Interesting. Not enough fwd cover for mine.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2021, 05:53:11 pm
No Gov, no Jack S, no Dow. 8 defenders, 9 if you count Zac W based on a previous life. Interesting. Not enough fwd cover for mine.
Forgot about McGovern agree.., cant see him playing in the magoos, that would be embarrassing for club and player, maybe Newman comes out for McGovern.
Think Jack and Dow would be backups, dont see either as regulars unless we have injuries.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 17, 2021, 08:51:22 pm
Forgot about McGovern agree.., cant see him playing in the magoos, that would be embarrassing for club and player, maybe Newman comes out for McGovern.
Think Jack and Dow would be backups, dont see either as regulars unless we have injuries.
I think when fit Jack is easy in our best 22.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 17, 2021, 11:29:46 pm
I think when fit Jack is easy in our best 22.
Don't get me wrong I like Jack and he would get strong consideration from me for selection but I'm looking at it from Teagues viewpoint and who he likes and with Jack's situation at the club being tenuous IMHO I'm not sure he will be a priority for the future.
eg I think a player like McGovern will get preferred regardless of form.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on February 18, 2021, 08:05:55 am
eg I think a player like McGovern will get preferred regardless of form.
Form is one issue that ugly word potential another, let's not degrade McGovern's capability just because he lacks consistency, because we are comparing two players of equal ability.

Having said that, heart means something, more than most think, so SOJ would be one of my first picked every week!
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 18, 2021, 06:02:08 pm

Having said that, heart means something, more than most think, so SOJ would be one of my first picked every week!
Exactly, he is the type of soldier you need. Hard, doesn't shirk, will sacrifice his game for others and is a Kent.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 18, 2021, 06:26:24 pm
Exactly, he is the type of soldier you need. Hard, doesn't shirk, will sacrifice his game for others and is a Kent.
I think most would pick Jack based on heart and effort but I'm not sure the coach and his crew see him in the same light.
He wont get the same leeway for poor performance that some of the bigger name/bigger money players get and would be one of the first dropped if we are struggling IMHO. Not having a true defined position never helps either and while his utility status is a strength it will also count against him in selection IMO when you are picking a best team and puts him in that group of players more likely to be picked on the bench at best if everyone is fit and available.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on February 18, 2021, 07:47:58 pm
Clearly, the Inner Sanctum's selection panel doesn't take player profiles, popularity and club politics into account   :)

You couldn't pick McGovern on exposed form and Jack's absence through injury will have hurt his chances.  Like many folk here, I would have Jack in the 22 before McGovern, and probably a couple of others, but only on the proviso that he has improved his goal kicking.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 18, 2021, 08:06:15 pm
Clearly, the Inner Sanctum's selection panel doesn't take player profiles, popularity and club politics into account   :)

You couldn't pick McGovern on exposed form and Jack's absence through injury will have hurt his chances.  Like many folk here, I would have Jack in the 22 before McGovern, and probably a couple of others, but only on the proviso that he has improved his goal kicking.
He ain't Robinson Crusoe I'll give you the mail.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on February 19, 2021, 09:33:49 am
He ain't Robinson Crusoe I'll give you the mail.
That is one area people can't criticise McGovern, kicking, he's elite.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Thryleon on February 19, 2021, 10:22:24 am
That is one area people can't criticise McGovern, kicking, he's elite.

Yep.  Thats one thing that you cant criticise about McGovern.  The bloke is a footballer.  A good athlete, and a proffessional....  well thats up for debate, but when he is kicking for goal, I think he is possibly our best converter. 
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 19, 2021, 11:45:22 am
In 2020 McGovern averaged about 7 possies a game at about 66% DE, Matt Kennedy was about 16 possies a game@69%DE.
Nothing special about McGovern at all IMO, he would want to kick straight as he cant get the ball.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on February 19, 2021, 11:50:47 am
In 2020 McGovern averaged about 7 possies a game at about 66% DE, Matt Kennedy was about 16 possies a game@69%DE.
Nothing special about McGovern at all IMO, he would want to kick straight as he cant get the ball.
Is it feasible to compare a KPP to an Onballer?

For someone working stoppages or midfield does the DE% include 1m handballs?

It seems to me there are biases in the stats that have to be considered when they are being discussed.

Does Newman's kick for goal, or McGovern's kick for goal form outside F50, get any special weight in the DE% statistics, or are they the same as a 15m pass?

@ElwoodBlues1 It's not unreasonable to consider that these things are not all equal!

As an aside, just as Levi missing from the goal square would swing momentum, I can also recall some occasions last season when McGovern's straight kicking swung momentum. If I accept the influence of one I have to accept the influence of the other.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 19, 2021, 01:28:42 pm
In 2020 McGovern averaged about 7 possies a game at about 66% DE, Matt Kennedy was about 16 possies a game@69%DE.
Nothing special about McGovern at all IMO, he would want to kick straight as he cant get the ball.
So overrated its ridiculous IMO. I was both excited and perplexed when we recruited him. Excited because a high profile player chose us, perplexed because I think we needed a prize mid not a fwd. Since his arrival, its been nothing but a big bag of excuses. Its just a mask for his lack of professionalism and dedication.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 19, 2021, 03:23:49 pm
Is it feasible to compare a KPP to an Onballer?

For someone working stoppages or midfield does the DE% include 1m handballs?

It seems to me there are biases in the stats that have to be considered when they are being discussed.

Does Newman's kick for goal, or McGovern's kick for goal form outside F50, get any special weight in the DE% statistics, or are they the same as a 15m pass?

@ElwoodBlues1 It's not unreasonable to consider that these things are not all equal!

As an aside, just as Levi missing from the goal square would swing momentum, I can also recall some occasions last season when McGovern's straight kicking swung momentum. If I accept the influence of one I have to accept the influence of the other.
Agree its a difficult comparison but Kennedy has played forward as a 3rd mobile marking target and mids as we know get more ball but can also have poor DE as they are under more pressure at the coal face and clearances. Its the rebounding half backs/back pockets who get a lot of cheap ball who tend to get the high DE numbers. I'm just suggesting there is nothing startling about McGovern and his impact on games. Would Jack or Kennedy give you similar output or better at 1/3 of the cost..
I thought Kennedy was quite good when played forward both marking and kicking for goal but seemed to be the 1st dropped when we lost unlike McGovern who gave us nothing most games but kept his place due to his higher profile and relationship with the coach but I am going over old ground so I will stop here..
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on February 19, 2021, 03:54:33 pm
I thought Kennedy was quite good when played forward both marking and kicking for goal but seemed to be the 1st dropped when we lost unlike McGovern who gave us nothing most games but kept his place due to his higher profile and relationship with the coach but I am going over old ground so I will stop here..
Agree, I've no idea what Kennedy did wrong to fall out of favour, team rules?
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 19, 2021, 04:21:43 pm
Agree, I've no idea what Kennedy did wrong to fall out of favour, team rules?
There were rumours he was difficult to coach, and wasnt backward in telling people what he thought on a range of subjects especially religion and also had that unfortunate incident where he and Gary Ablett supported Israel Folau I think on social media when Folau had some over zealous ideas on some other members of the community and their lifestyles.
Seems well liked by the playing group though and has had a raw deal IMO..

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on February 19, 2021, 04:34:52 pm
There were rumours he was difficult to coach, and wasnt backward in telling people what he thought on a range of subjects especially religion and also had that unfortunate incident where he and Gary Ablett supported Israel Folau I think on social media when Folau had some over zealous ideas on some other members of the community and their lifestyles.
Seems well liked by the playing group though and has had a raw deal IMO..



I just got through talking about the Hoskings in the other thread, and one thing i was talking about was, specifically Jess Hoskings ability to be a good teammate, off the field. Set the example, be the role model and generally just be a nice girl to have on your list.

Kennedy would be the exact opposite IMO. Nothing about him as a player, just comes from a different way of looking at life....and one that could (unfairly??) ostracize him.

Its why Luke O'Sullivan was on the list for 10 years and only played 50 games. He was a great guy to have around and that earned him contracts over someone who didn't quite fit in.....ie Kennedy types.

You beat me to the punch with the 'tweetgate'. Its hard to recover from such things.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Thryleon on February 20, 2021, 08:28:41 am
I just got through talking about the Hoskings in the other thread, and one thing i was talking about was, specifically Jess Hoskings ability to be a good teammate, off the field. Set the example, be the role model and generally just be a nice girl to have on your list.

Kennedy would be the exact opposite IMO. Nothing about him as a player, just comes from a different way of looking at life....and one that could (unfairly??) ostracize him.

Its why Luke O'Sullivan was on the list for 10 years and only played 50 games. He was a great guy to have around and that earned him contracts over someone who didn't quite fit in.....ie Kennedy types.

You beat me to the punch with the 'tweetgate'. Its hard to recover from such things.

Nick Graham was a bit like this.  Ellard before him too.

Mcgovern does some things sometimes that just make you go thats it.  That's why he's playing, thats why we paid for him, and hopefully we see more of it.

I can handle the inconsistencies more than I can the lack of ability.

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 20, 2021, 09:43:40 am
Nick Graham was a bit like this.  Ellard before him too.

Mcgovern does some things sometimes that just make you go thats it.  That's why he's playing, thats why we paid for him, and hopefully we see more of it.

I can handle the inconsistencies more than I can the lack of ability.


I guess that's where you and I differ Thry. The odd tease every now and then is unacceptable for me.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: cookie2 on February 20, 2021, 09:55:24 am
Reminds me of the rep for a famous IT supplier years ago who was fond of saying to us " The next release is gonna be grrrreat!" 🤫
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Professer E on February 20, 2021, 12:50:05 pm
Ablett does it,  nothing to see here.   Kennedy dies it,  condemnation.   Double standards much?

Biggest BSfests of all time - big company IT projects - SAP,  crystal etc.  Always over budget,  late, and fail to deliver.  Best way to burn money.   "it's gonna be grrrrrreat".  "it'll be fixed in the next update".  Yeah...nah... Next.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: spf on February 22, 2021, 04:11:20 am
Agree, I've no idea what Kennedy did wrong to fall out of favour, team rules?

There is also the pay packet. McGovern cost us a lot versus Kennedy on a lot less coin. Perhaps there was a feeling that we have to persevere because we have invested so much already we just have to make it work. It would be seen as a failure for the club if we could not get something back on the investment.

It is a bit like top draft picks, they always get more opportunities than later picks because you feel you have paid so much for them. I wonder if a guy drafted at pick 83 gets anywhere near the same love as someone in the top 10.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: madbluboy on March 06, 2021, 02:44:10 pm
McGovern was supposed to be playing alongside Charlie and Harry, how often has that happened? The other two have missed a lot of footy.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 06, 2021, 04:10:14 pm
McGovern was supposed to be playing alongside Charlie and Harry, how often has that happened? The other two have missed a lot of footy.
And will continue to.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Pratty on March 08, 2021, 11:53:14 am
We need predictability and consistency with our players.

Guys like McKay, Charlie C and McGovern are so often injured it's quite ridiculous. De Koning has proven to be a bit injury prone also. Marchbank is another. We have been fortunate with Weitering though.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 08, 2021, 03:41:28 pm
We need predictability and consistency with our players.

Guys like McKay, Charlie C and McGovern are so often injured it's quite ridiculous. De Koning has proven to be a bit injury prone also. Marchbank is another. We have been fortunate with Weitering though.
Marchbank is captain and multiple B&F winner of the injured players team, 48 games in 6 years (5,2,16,12,13,0).
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 08, 2021, 04:26:01 pm
Marchbank is captain and multiple B&F winner of the injured players team, 48 games in 6 years (5,2,16,12,13,0).
McGovern over the last 4 seasons has averaged 13 games a season.....so you get a bit over half a season, and so far the bit we have got has been well short of satisfactory. Both he and Marchbank need plenty of games in the magoos to show they can stand up physically and deliver the standard of football expected on a consistent basis.
Jack Silvagni deserves first crack in that 3rd tall forward role and McGovern needs to win it back with form, fitness and not a free pass because he is on a truckload of money and it looks embarrassing for the club and his mate the coach if he plays reserves footy.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: PaulP on March 08, 2021, 05:25:29 pm
One of those seasons where Marchbank played double digit games, he really showed he can play, and was building up some good form. Shame about those injuries.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:30:10 pm
McGovern over the last 4 seasons has averaged 13 games a season.....so you get a bit over half a season, and so far the bit we have got has been well short of satisfactory. Both he and Marchbank need plenty of games in the magoos to show they can stand up physically and deliver the standard of football expected on a consistent basis.
Jack Silvagni deserves first crack in that 3rd tall forward role and McGovern needs to win it back with form, fitness and not a free pass because he is on a truckload of money and it looks embarrassing for the club and his mate the coach if he plays reserves footy.
While I like the sentiment of earning your spot, I can't see us entering a game without either McGovern and/or Casboult, especially while Harry remains so fragile. Perhaps that does of reality is why SOS was so reserved as a spectator.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on March 08, 2021, 09:47:44 pm
Like SPS, McMoney is on his last chance with me.  
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on March 08, 2021, 09:49:55 pm
Like SPS, McMoney is on his last chance with me.  

In fairness to McGovern, he hasn't been fit during the majority of his time with us due to injuries.
SPS doesn't have that excuse.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:52:59 pm
In fairness to McGovern, he hasn't been fit during the majority of his time with us due to injuries.
SPS doesn't have that excuse.
In fairness to SPS, I think fan expectations way exceed ability, perhaps he is not out of form but just playing to his ability. Some WA nerd did SPS no favours by claiming on the draft that SPS was the best footballer to come out of the west, it seems many of our fans believed it!
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: cookie2 on March 08, 2021, 09:57:59 pm
In fairness to SPS, I think fan expectations way exceed ability, perhaps he is not out of form but just playing to his ability. Some WA nerd did SPS no favours by claiming on the draft that SPS was the best footballer to come out of the west, it seems many of our fans believed it!

Tend to agree - what we have seen is all we are likely to get.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on March 08, 2021, 10:14:06 pm
Yet his first year was exceptional .... sorry, not buying that
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on March 08, 2021, 11:15:11 pm
In fairness to SPS, I think fan expectations way exceed ability, perhaps he is not out of form but just playing to his ability. Some WA nerd did SPS no favours by claiming on the draft that SPS was the best footballer to come out of the west, it seems many of our fans believed it!

I think that Samo has become the new whipping boy.

He is being played out of position but he does the job the coach has given him ... and he’s nowhere near as bad as some folk like to think.

Remember when the 2020 player rankings came out and Samo was right up there with the best small defenders and had hardly conceded a goal (apart from two from shocking free kicks against West Coast).
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2021, 11:38:39 pm
Its a simple equation.

What you see is what you get with Samo.

He plays today much as he did when he arrived and there might not be much more scope for growth in his game.

Thats ok.

He's good enough, and if he weren't a top 5 pick, we'd be happy enough with how he's tracking.

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 09, 2021, 12:07:53 am
Can you play three small defenders ie Docherty, Saad and SPS whose preference is to play loose/attack and not defend?
I thought Gresham, Higgins and Lonie all played well in the community game and the degree of difficulty will only increase with the Tiger small forwards. Imo two out of our three have to give preference to defending..
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: madbluboy on March 09, 2021, 09:13:54 am
I have high expectations of SPS not because of where he went in the draft but how good is best is.

Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: cookie2 on March 09, 2021, 09:26:37 am
Tend to agree - what we have seen is all we are likely to get.

Further to that, it is very important to play SPS in the role that suits him best. Agree with EB1 that he's not an out and out defender so to play him as one will do nobody any favours.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: flyboy77 on March 09, 2021, 09:31:06 am
Oscar's been added to the list as a rookie.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/876320?spMailingID=6670091&spUserID=Mjg5NTEwNzMzNTMxS0&spJobID=1220238323&spReportId=MTIyMDIzODMyMwS2
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 09, 2021, 09:42:27 am
Further to that, it is very important to play SPS in the role that suits him best. Agree with EB1 that he's not an out and out defender so to play him as one will do nobody any favours.
Agree he is being played out of position.
His best is good enough as we saw when he had 35 touches in one game and I have seen him defend well as I have said before vs Tippa where he kept him very quiet.
But like Cuningham he is inconsistent and can be a ball watcher. Wouldn't chase in a Gold Coast game I watched and looks disinterested at times in a Yarran type of way where he picks and chooses his moments to get involved. One of those players who needs the right club/coach to get the best out of him imho, not sure that is us who need max effort most games and can't afford too many passengers too often.
Maybe West Coast where he doesn't need to be the main man every game and be under the microscope so often..
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2021, 09:53:58 am
Can you play three small defenders ie Docherty, Saad and SPS whose preference is to play loose/attack and not defend?
I thought Gresham, Higgins and Lonie all played well in the community game and the degree of difficulty will only increase with the Tiger small forwards. Imo two out of our three have to give preference to defending..

Like all of our defenders, Samo, Doc and Saad are made to look bad by lack of defensive effort up the ground and rebound entries from poor delivery into our forward 50.  How many times did the Saints score after gaining possession on halfback?

I think that Samo, Doc and Saad all defend reasonably well (and Saad’s defensive work is better than I thought), but they are playing to instructions and within a structure that relies on rebounding and retaining possession.  Williamson is another rebounding defender so four of our seven first line defenders are primarily less defensively orientated.

Williamson spent a fair bit of time on the wing against the Bummers and I would prefer to see Samo spending more time there.  Fewer rotations mean that the opportunity to spell defenders on the bench will be limited.  I would like to see our defenders “rested” up the ground and, depending on match ups and game situation, more defensive players like Newnes, Silvagni, McGovern and Newman spending time in the backline.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 09, 2021, 10:05:17 am
Like all of our defenders, Samo, Doc and Saad are made to look bad by lack of defensive effort up the ground and rebound entries from poor delivery into our forward 50.  How many times did the Saints score after gaining possession on halfback?

I think that Samo, Doc and Saad all defend reasonably well (and Saad’s defensive work is better than I thought), but they are playing to instructions and within a structure that relies on rebounding and retaining possession.  Williamson is another rebounding defender so four of our seven first line defenders are primarily less defensively orientated.

Williamson spent a fair bit of time on the wing against the Bummers and I would prefer to see Samo spending more time there.  Fewer rotations mean that the opportunity to spell defenders on the bench will be limited.  I would like to see our defenders “rested” up the ground and, depending on match ups and game situation, more defensive players like Newnes, Silvagni, McGovern and Newman spending time in the backline.
I believe Ratten instructed his team to play through Saad and Dochertys match ups to offset their rebound. Richmond seem to get away with Houli and Short running up the ground because their other defenders ie Vlastuin rotate  across to cover them or a midfielder drops back. We don't seem organised enough and as you say when the ball rebounds we have these loose opposition players in our forward line.
Short had 45 possies in their community game and needs a minder, I hope our coaches/scouts were paying attention...
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Pratty on March 09, 2021, 12:49:44 pm
I'd play SPS in the midfield and on the wing. If he needs to 'tag' at times then so be it. He's a natural ball winner and I reckon he's become better defensively by playing down back. I think his footy nous, evasive skills and foot skills would be beneficial in the midfield group.

We've got some players to rotate but we desperately need a big break out year ala Jacob Weitering at CHB from 1-2 midfielders such as Walsh, Setterfield Dow, Martin, Cuningham, SPS, Gibbons, Stocker, Fogarty, O'Brien, and Kennedy. A great big 'next step' if you will. Setters took a nice step forward last year as did Walsh. I'd love to hear those two plus Cripps and Williams mentioned as AA squad candidates with guys like Dow, Martin, Cuningham, Gibbons and SPS riding shotgun as big improvers and regular starting 22 in the midfield/wing group. It would mean we are getting plenty out of our underperforming midfield.

Then there's the likes of Philp, Ramsay, Kemp, Cottrell and Carroll who are still very green and developing.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 09, 2021, 12:55:10 pm
I'd play SPS in the midfield and on the wing. If he needs to 'tag' at times then so be it. He's a natural ball winner and I reckon he's become better defensively by playing down back. I think his footy nous, evasive skills and foot skills would be beneficial in the midfield group.

We've got some players to rotate but we desperately need a big break out year ala Jacob Weitering at CHB from 1-2 midfielders such as Walsh, Setterfield Dow, Martin, Cuningham, SPS, Gibbons, Stocker, Fogarty, O'Brien, and Kennedy. A great big 'next step' if you will. Setters took a nice step forward last year as did Walsh. I'd love to hear those two plus Cripps and Williams mentioned as AA squad candidates with guys like Dow, Martin, Cuningham, Gibbons and SPS riding shotgun as big improvers and regular starting 22 in the midfield/wing group. It would mean we are getting plenty out of our underperforming midfield.

Then there's the likes of Philp, Ramsay, Kemp, Cottrell and Carroll who are still very green and developing.
I liked the look of Setterfield in the practice match, they used him sparingly but he looks cherry ripe!

I think they tried SPS in the mid-field tagger role before and excluding the bounce he hardly got within a kick of his opponent, he's too slow to keep up with most of them in-between the stoppages when he catches back up to the play. So if he doesn't win the football we are one short in open space and that is a big problem. fwiw, It was nice to see Martin with some run-down tackles when he first arrived, I'd forgotten what they looked like!

Maybe Cunningham needs a tagging role to help him take the next step, opponents will try to break away in heavy traffic but if he learns that gig he could be invaluable as he has the pace needed to run and spread.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Pratty on March 11, 2021, 10:07:16 am
I liked the look of Setterfield in the practice match, they used him sparingly but he looks cherry ripe!

I think they tried SPS in the mid-field tagger role before and excluding the bounce he hardly got within a kick of his opponent, he's too slow to keep up with most of them in-between the stoppages when he catches back up to the play. So if he doesn't win the football we are one short in open space and that is a big problem. fwiw, It was nice to see Martin with some run-down tackles when he first arrived, I'd forgotten what they looked like!

Maybe Cunningham needs a tagging role to help him take the next step, opponents will try to break away in heavy traffic but if he learns that gig he could be invaluable as he has the pace needed to run and spread.

I'd take guys like Dow and Cuningham matching up/tagging opposition mids. SPS too but I like his creativeness also.  Martin I like but gee he goes missing a heap, like McGovern.

My fear is we've paid big money for guys who are flash in the pans type without enough regular substance or meat & potatoes types. I find we cannot rely on those two to be consistent enough. I hope we get more out of them as opposed to highly paid forward flanker types. Martin into the midfield I want. At least 50/50 split but would prefer more midfield minutes.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on March 11, 2021, 10:13:43 am
I liked the look of Setterfield in the practice match, they used him sparingly but he looks cherry ripe!

I meant to comment on how well Setterfield played in both pre-season games.  His form was solid last season but he seems to have stepped up a notch or two.  I think we have picked up a really good footballer in Setters and it was really worth persevering with him as he got over his injury.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 11, 2021, 12:13:27 pm
I'd take guys like Dow and Cuningham matching up/tagging opposition mids. SPS too but I like his creativeness also.  Martin I like but gee he goes missing a heap, like McGovern.

My fear is we've paid big money for guys who are flash in the pans type without enough regular substance or meat & potatoes types. I find we cannot rely on those two to be consistent enough. I hope we get more out of them as opposed to highly paid forward flanker types. Martin into the midfield I want. At least 50/50 split but would prefer more midfield minutes.
Dow and Cuningham would worry me playing on anyone decent, much prefer Setterfield and Williamson to do run with roles.
I'd like Martin in the midfield to compliment Cripps to offset Williams being out, be tempted to play Eddie to cover Martins absence down forward if that happened.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:09:57 pm
Dow and Cuningham would worry me playing on anyone decent, much prefer Setterfield and Williamson to do run with roles.
I'd like Martin in the midfield to compliment Cripps to offset Williams being out, be tempted to play Eddie to cover Martins absence down forward if that happened.
I think Setterfield will be Cripps main chop-out this season, with Williams, Martin, sMurph and others in the outside roles. Taggers can be anybody, just pick someone who can run and hump!
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: cookie2 on March 11, 2021, 01:17:43 pm
I think Setterfield will be Cripps main chop-out this season, with Williams, Martin, sMurph and others in the outside roles. Taggers can be anybody, just pick someone who can run and hump!

I know he's earmarked for an outside role but I was impressed with Williams' ability to win contested ball.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:18:58 pm
I know he's earmarked for an outside role but I was impressed with Williams' ability to win contested ball.
Yes, it makes us much harder to counter, we are building some midfield strength and depth.

I very much liked his ability to run down tackle with some intent, Nthmond would have been a very good test!
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Pratty on March 15, 2021, 09:56:52 am
Put the heat on Jack Martin. Play him predominately in the midfield against the Tiges.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on March 15, 2021, 10:17:09 am
Pratty, I fear he will be found out should we do that.  Still, it's one way to go.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: DJC on March 15, 2021, 10:25:32 am
Pratty, I fear he will be found out should we do that.  Still, it's one way to go.

I fear you’re correct.

Martin provides best value as a half forward.  He can have an impact with an occasional run through the midfield but I think he would be exposed by the Richmond midfielders if he was in the guts for extended periods.

I would prefer to see Martin making the Richmond halfbacks accountable.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: Professer E on March 15, 2021, 10:56:39 am
Well be lucky to get within 10 goals of the tigers.

The horror start... The huge on field holes.
  Looks like another nothing season.   I'd be mentally preparing for Cripps running around in different colours next year and a new coach.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on March 15, 2021, 12:14:01 pm
Even carrying all the outs, I'll be ropeable if we get done by anything like 10.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: townsendcalling on March 15, 2021, 12:57:05 pm
Given that the last 4 years Round 1 results have been defeats by 7 goals in 2017, 4 in 18, 5 in 19 and 4 in 20 and 10 goal loss would be very, very hard to stomach.

Keep the faith!
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 15, 2021, 01:00:01 pm
I fear you’re correct.

Martin provides best value as a half forward.  He can have an impact with an occasional run through the midfield but I think he would be exposed by the Richmond midfielders if he was in the guts for extended periods.

I would prefer to see Martin making the Richmond halfbacks accountable.
Agree I like him as shock value in the middle, but prefer him setting up and delivering to others down forward as his foot skills and vision is terrific. He is also a nice set shot for goal and one of those players who you feel safe with the ball in his hands.
With Eddie somewhat 50/50 and winding down we need the class of Martin to replace him and help Zac Fisher improve.
Also I dont see him as that 25-35 possie type mid who will get heaps of ball either and for me its about quality than quantity with JM and I dont want him banged up by taggers and missing games either.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 01:02:58 pm
Put the heat on Jack Martin. Play him predominately in the midfield against the Tiges.
It's the repeat efforts that will bring him undone, he might bounce after the first few tackles, but his output slides if he is kept constrained for too long. He doesn't have that grunt.

To me he looks like the type of player that regularly needs to be cut loose somewhere inside F50 to pump up his tyres.

Put SoJ in the midfield with an open license to purely hunt the pill, he'll not stop stoppage after stoppage, and at least take some scalps along the way! Has he had a good enough pre-season after his surgery issues?

I think the key to defeating Nthmond is not to be predictable in role or game style, Nthmond self-organise better than most teams, Dimma is not even needed!
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: capcom on March 15, 2021, 02:20:48 pm
Martin has one major fault with his kicking (and unless it's under direction) in that he skies the ball into the forward line far too much when he edges way too close to the man on the mark.  Did it numerous times last year.  That MUST stop.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on March 15, 2021, 03:49:10 pm
F*** people have short memories.

R1 vs Tigers last year.

Jack Martin - 17 disposals, 6 marks, 4.1 - 1 brownlow vote

He is the 1 player that performed last year. We need to worry about the other 21 blokes.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 04:06:42 pm
F*** people have short memories.

R1 vs Tigers last year.

Jack Martin - 17 disposals, 6 marks, 4.1 - 1 brownlow vote

He is the 1 player that performed last year. We need to worry about the other 21 blokes.
 Not as a fulltime mid, and after that he slid down the pecking order considerably.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on March 15, 2021, 04:09:13 pm
Not as a fulltime mid, and after that he slid down the pecking order considerably.

By slid down the order you mean started having calf issues.

When fit, he is dominant, regardless of the opposition.

2020 (R2 onwards) is not a good measure of form. So many variables once the game went into lockdown and was reborn in hubs.

The AFL doco shows the effect it had on Eddie being away from his family. Clearly explains the lack of form he had.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 04:36:44 pm
By slid down the order you mean started having calf issues.

When fit, he is dominant, regardless of the opposition.

2020 (R2 onwards) is not a good measure of form. So many variables once the game went into lockdown and was reborn in hubs.

The AFL doco shows the effect it had on Eddie being away from his family. Clearly explains the lack of form he had.
Martin has a history we can see from another club and glowing assessments do not seem to match long term exposed form, I think fans expect too much, he's not the messiah and he can't fix all problems in all positions.

Martin's a nice footballer when used to his strengths, I don't think fulltime mid will be one of them, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: shawny on March 15, 2021, 06:39:50 pm
Well be lucky to get within 10 goals of the tigers.

The horror start... The huge on field holes.
  Looks like another nothing season.   I'd be mentally preparing for Cripps running around in different colours next year and a new coach.


Geez i thought i was negative :)

I think it will be a tough ask to beat them but i will give us to round 5 or 6 before declaring another failed season.

Agree we need to get a full list up and running fast to stand any chance against the better teams.
 
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 15, 2021, 06:45:49 pm
By slid down the order you mean started having calf issues.

When fit, he is dominant, regardless of the opposition.

2020 (R2 onwards) is not a good measure of form. So many variables once the game went into lockdown and was reborn in hubs.

The AFL doco shows the effect it had on Eddie being away from his family. Clearly explains the lack of form he had.
He had injuries but over his 100 games with GC he was never a big possie winner, or could keep up those games like he had vs the Tigers every week. I like him for his skills and he is a nice player to watch but he is more of a burst player than a full on workhorse for 100 minutes. We dont want him doing hack work or getting banged up and need to save him for the silky stuff that gets us goals.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: LP on March 15, 2021, 07:04:17 pm
We dont want him doing hack work or getting banged up and need to save him for the silky stuff that gets us goals.
Yep, for me he's the A-Grade finisher we've missed for a long time.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on March 15, 2021, 09:26:46 pm
Martin has a history we can see from another club and glowing assessments do not seem to match long term exposed form, I think fans expect too much, he's not the messiah and he can't fix all problems in all positions.

Martin's a nice footballer when used to his strengths, I don't think fulltime mid will be one of them, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
I think it was Blight who said Martin had the best highlights video and was the most talented junior he has ever seen.

Now if he could put that together 100% of the time, he'd be the greatest player to ever play the game....but its not sustainable, nor possible.

Accept him for what he is. When he is on, he is unstoppable. When he isn't, he still chases and tackles.
I'll take that.
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: flyboy77 on March 16, 2021, 03:57:38 pm
F*** people have short memories.

R1 vs Tigers last year.

Jack Martin - 17 disposals, 6 marks, 4.1 - 1 brownlow vote

He is the 1 player that performed last year. We need to worry about the other 21 blokes.

And didn't he kick the 4 all in one quarter (Q3 iirc).

Got us back in the game....

After being down by 5 majors at quarter time (ouch).
Title: Re: Best 22 in 21
Post by: kruddler on March 17, 2021, 07:34:19 am
And didn't he kick the 4 all in one quarter (Q3 iirc).

Got us back in the game....

After being down by 5 majors at quarter time (ouch).

Correct, kicked all 4 in the 3rd quarter.

We were down by 31 at 1/4 time,  46 at half time, 34 at 3/4 time and we kicked the first 3 of the last to get within 15 points before losing by 24.