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Topic: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda (Read 12380 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #120 –
Quote from: kruddler on
....and if thats the case....its the same rules for everyone....and Jones still does better than anyone. So why the argument?
See the last bit I was still editing when you replied.

Also it's basically a team tactic, it's not a direct assessment or judgement of individual player ability.

I'd say Jones gets this job, primarily because he is weaker at the very thing we commonly think is one on one contested marking, and that is wrestling at the fall of the ball.

That is not a commentary from me asserting Jones is either good or bad, it's just the way it is in our team.

As I mentioned last week, fans kybosh Plowman because he always seems to be on the losing end of contests, but that is because he's the one picking up the loose pieces that will allow Jones and Weitering to do what they do when they leave opponents and intercept mark.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #121 –
Jones and Weitering are pretty much the best KPD combo in the AFL. I give them both votes by default in the Jim Park. If Teague survives the review, he will in large part have the two of them to thank. When the chips are down, they have almost single handedly kept us in games IMO.

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #122 –
Quote from: LP on
See the last bit I was still editing when you replied.

Also it's basically a team tactic, it's not a direct assessment or judgement of individual player ability.

I'd say Jones gets this job, primarily because he is weaker at the very thing we commonly think is one on one contested marking, and that is wrestling at the fall of the ball.

That is not a commentary from me asserting Jones is either good or bad, it's just the way it is in our team.

As I mentioned last week, fans kybosh Plowman because he always seems to be on the losing end of contests, but that is because he's the one picking up the loose pieces that will allow Jones and Weitering to do what they do when they leave opponents and intercept mark.

You can argue that he is not #1, despite stats saying he is, but you cannot argue that the stats are so far out of whack that he is actually no good in that area.

Fact is, he is very good in this area, quite possibly the best. The point you are attempting to make is hardly worth it in the scheme of things.

FWIW, AFL stats use champion data stats, so its all the same thing and no differences between the 2.

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #123 –
Quote from: kruddler on
You can argue that he is not #1, despite stats saying he is, but you cannot argue that the stats are so far out of whack that he is actually no good in that area.

Fact is, he is very good in this area, quite possibly the best. The point you are attempting to make is hardly worth it in the scheme of things.

FWIW, AFL stats use champion data stats, so its all the same thing and no differences between the 2.
The users of CD are free to apply their own weight to the data.

I never claimed Jones was bad or poor at his role, so why mention it? I was questioning the concept that he was the best based on all the various options available and how they are assessed? I was also highlighting the difference between the common fan understanding of a contested mark, and what CD uses.

Secondly, the AFL takes CD data and uses Player Ratings which I believe originally came form Vic Uni, however the the way Player Ratings characterised things like a contest are not necessarily the same as the CD version of a contest. this introduces a distortion, because they are applying an algorithm to similar data not identical data.

I note now, several AFL clubs are unhappy with the way CD does it's analysis and perform their own analysis. btw., You may ask why go to that cost, it turns out that CD is contracted to the AFL, and clubs have to pay for access to that data, so CD is not free if you are an AFL club. So I suppose they argue if they must pay they may as well get what they want.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #124 –
Quote from: LP on
I never claimed Jones was bad or poor at his role, so why mention it?

Because the sole reason this came up is because you had a hissy fit saying he is not the best.

Who cares if he is the best, 2nd best, 3rd best.....he is elite at what he does....which is the point.
You get on your high horse and 'prove a point' that doesn't change the message of the original point.....so why bother?

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #125 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Because the sole reason this came up is because you had a hissy fit saying he is not the best.
This below is a hissy fit..................?
Quote from: LP on
I think those statistics need to be qualified because the bulk of his marks come as the 3rd man up ....................
Once again you've gone on to argue a non-existent point, there was no hissy fit, there was no claim or argument Jones was no good as you asserted, you made it all up!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #126 –
Quote from: LP on
Once again you've gone on to argue a non-existent point, there was no hissy fit, there was no claim or argument Jones was no good as you asserted, you made it all up!
Your whole rhetoric is answering questions that nobody was asking.

Jones = elite at intercept marks. EOS.
No need to spew forth potential inaccuracies over statistics, use your eyes. Data just backs that up.

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #127 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Jones = elite at intercept marks. EOS.
No need to spew forth potential inaccuracies over statistics, use your eyes. Data just backs that up.
The debate wasn't about intercept marking though, the debate was about him labelled as the best One on One defender..

So again your debating something nobody else is writing about, you do it all the time and take discussions off track!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #128 –
Quote from: flyboy77 on
disagree, we must get him to 300.

And I'm not a fan of Smurf....

I am amazed we have supporters who would even consider this. Finals are right there - we are 1 game out and we're talking about putting the individual ahead of the entire point of the club as a whole?

Make finals. Or play 17 vs. 18 because we want to limp a guy to a meaningless milestone. It's an amazing achievement to play 297 games the same as it is to play 300. Why does anyone care? Murphy himself would be embarrassed for all eternity if his 299th game he cost us finals.

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #129 –
Quote from: Shakin77 on
During the call, I think it was on the radio (listened to the 1st quarter in the car) BT called O'Brien a poor kick and asked Bartel about his development.

Heard that as well.  Probably a case of BT mixing up Dow and OBrien.   He ain’t that smart (esp when it comes to our players)

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #130 –
Quote from: jeza on
I am amazed we have supporters who would even consider this. Finals are right there - we are 1 game out and we're talking about putting the individual ahead of the entire point of the club as a whole?
Our making finals is really totally dependant on others losing, we are unlikely to bridge the percentage gap so ending up on the same number of wins isn't good enough. I think Freo are in prime position.

The other problem is that some of the teams above us that are vying for the last spot play each other, so some of those above are guaranteed one win and excluding Freo they all have better percentages.

If we do a Melbourne and smash GC we might get enough of a percentage boost to put us closer, but I'd assert if we have to us and injury sub in the process it's not going to happen. Plus at this stage are we going to have a ruck?
The Force Awakens!

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #131 –
Quote from: LP on
Our making finals is really totally dependant on others losing, we are unlikely to bridge the percentage gap so ending up on the same number of wins isn't good enough. I think Freo are in prime position.

The other problem is that some of the teams above us that are vying for the last spot play each other, so some of those above are guaranteed one win and excluding Freo they all have better percentages.

If we do a Melbourne and smash GC we might get enough of a percentage boost to put us closer, but I'd assert if we have to us and injury sub in the process it's not going to happen. Plus at this stage are we going to have a ruck?

In Freo's case their percentage is worse than ours, which is why I was hoping they'd win yesterday. Just hoping North keep up their good form and roll the Tigers. Some confidence in that one. Hope Brisbane can find form and best Freo. Not so sure about that. Geelong will beat GWS in Geelong and the Dogs will beat Essendon. That happens and the finals will be in our own hands, as long as we win.

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #132 –
We need to win 3 of 3.

Freo have Brisbane in Perth, Eagles then St Kilda here (docklands). If they win all 3, they're in....but they're flaky. So expect one loss.

WCE have Dees in Perth, Dockers then Brsbane (possibly up there, otherwise here?) might win zero, might win 2. Win 2, they're in.

Saints have Syvegas here, Cats in Geelong, then Freo. Two wins at best.

Bombers have Bulldogs, Suns (up there possibly), Pies at the G. Two wins at best.

Tigers have North, Giants, Hawthorn - win all three and we win all three, they pip us most likely on %.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #133 –
I think Freo are rolling now and can knock over Brisbane....they won without Fyfe and Walters and Cerra has probably added some more dollars onto his price.
I thought Richmond might win their three but the team getting Clarko last game for the Hawks would be worried....
Giants just play a rubbish brand for a team with so much talent and how Cameron is still coaching is a mystery to me..

Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda

Reply #134 –
Just on our tackling in the Saints game, was it just me or did a lot of our very good tackles go unrewarded? There seemed to be quite a few instances where the perfect tackle was laid and the Saints player given an eternity to get rid of it, then didn't, and we still didn't get a kick.

And the arms around the waist free kick in a marking contest....be nice if that rule applied to all areas of the ground. It seems to be only against defenders.