Carlton Supporters Club

Wow!  Some guy unleashed a machine gun from the 32nd floor of a hotel on the crowd at an open-air C&W concert. At least 20 dead and 100 wounded. 

Given Trump hasn't come out already to say this was radical islamic terror, chances are it isn't.  Apparently, the lone shooter is dead and he was apparently a local.

But how the hell does someone access a machine gun?  Watch one of the clips and the rapidity and duration of the gunfire is stunning.

Despite police being in the crowd, there was no hope of the shooter being taken out from ground level.  So much for this idea that the way to deal with a bad man with a gun is for good men to have guns. 

This is the country that is so keen to protect the right to bear arms that the NRA wants to get rid of prohibitions on silencers and automatic weapons.  Some commentators are saying the weapon used here may be a beltfed or drum machine gun.  Absolute insanity!

Wonderful, I'm close to Las Vegas within the week.

It's cultural, I lived in the US for a few years, and I was the only person I knew who didn't own a gun and go out shooting anything that moved in the woods every weekend. The gun in this instance sounds like a high-powered semi-automatic, anyone who passes the identity checks can get one of these at any corner gun shop in the US

Sounded like a heavy rapid fire weapon to me.

Wonderful, I'm close to Las Vegas within the week.

Glass half full outlook means that lightning is unlikely to strike twice in the same place so soon,and odds are a heightened security presence will be the outcome.

Walk down the strip in Vegas and you'll get people handing you all kinds of things.

Plenty of little cards with pictures of (half) naked ladies on them is the most common. I had people offering me cds of their own music as well. Lots of flyers from shops around, casinos and shows.

I had more than a couple flyers handed to me that were to go shoot guns. They take you to a range nearby and you get to choose through a wide variety from hand guns to rifles and anything you could dream of.

How does someone find a (machine?) gun in Vegas? How does someone avoid them??

Down in Texas they dont seem to have any trouble getting machine guns....replicas in the USA usually mean the real thing for these weekend nutcase warriors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N59msUnyy1g

What chance the shooter was ex military?? 

Death toll now 50 according to last report.

NBC has identified him as a white dude in his 60s who lived in a retirement community.

Sherriff said "at least 50 dead", many critically wounded, the toll will get higher I'm afraid. 64 year old local resident, will be interested to hear what his mental health history is, and how he was able to get access to the weapons that were found in his hotel room

Sounded like a heavy rapid fire weapon to me.

During my Army service I managed to fire off 60 rounds with my semi-automatic rifle while my partner with the machine gun got off 50 rounds.  His fire discipline was better than mine!

My point is that you can lay down a lot of fire with a semi-automatic ... and it's fairly straightforward to convert most semi-automatic rifles to fully automatic.  Such weapons are really only intended to be used against other humans (and some feral animals) and it is a mystery to me why they are so freely available in the USA.  I wonder how many more lives will be lost before they bring in sensible gun laws.  The current POTUS is in bed with the NRA and I can't seem him doing anything to upset them  :(

Yep, some tough questions.  Maybe Trump can avoid them being asked if he gets into a Twitter war with Kanye West or something like that.

So the White House press secretary states it's not a good time to be talking about gun laws.

If only the crowd had been allowed to carry weapons they could have blasted the hell out of that hotel's 32nd floor!

How can the US be surprised by this horror? When your gun laws are what they are, this is inevitable. In many civilized nations the NRA would be considered a danger to society and shut down.

How can the US be surprised by this horror? When your gun laws are what they are, this is inevitable. In many civilized nations the NRA would be considered a danger to society and shut down.

Gun laws being the way they are are not ideal, but that doesnt change the fact that this bloke is/was unhinged and took it out on innocent people.

Sure we ammended our gun laws after port arthur, but its not like that was  common occurrence like it is in the states.

People are the problem, irrespective of what means they use to harm people, and they have every right to be surprised that someone has acted in such fashion.

Gun laws being the way they are are not ideal, but that doesnt change the fact that this bloke is/was unhinged and took it out on innocent people.

Sure we ammended our gun laws after port arthur, but its not like that was  common occurrence like it is in the states.

People are the problem, irrespective of what means they use to harm people, and they have every right to be surprised that someone has acted in such fashion.

Correct people are the problem.

We all need fully automatic weapons to hunt, after all "It's wabbit season!"

Lunatics fully kitted out and tooled up with weapons of mass destruction from two bit arms dealers.

Gun laws being the way they are are not ideal, but that doesnt change the fact that this bloke is/was unhinged and took it out on innocent people.

Sure we ammended our gun laws after port arthur, but its not like that was  common occurrence like it is in the states.

People are the problem, irrespective of what means they use to harm people, and they have every right to be surprised that someone has acted in such fashion.

People armed with guns appear to be the problem to me.  :o

This wasn't just a "guy who snapped".  This was a guy who had 17 firearms with him, another 18 and explosives at home and ammonium nitrate (which can be used to make bombs) in his car.  He had to transport his stash to a hotel room and he must have done some prep work to pick his location.  And he had to amass all of this without raising alarm. 

It seems he was wealthy - he had a pilot's licence and owned 2 planes.  He was a retired accountant.

He had no apparent criminal or mental health history.

He must have had a serious beef with someone.  There were some suggestions he had a grievance over some poker game (he regularly played $100 hands of Poker in the casinos.  But surely something more substantial will emerge in the coming weeks.

Under Obama, the FBI took the view that domestic (non-Islamic) terrorism was its main concern, but Trump has no doubt tried to change the focus.  Terrorism is now only something Muslims do.  When right-wingers kill now, they are good people who snapped or who became mentally ill. 

That's not to say that this guy was a right-winger - his family claims he was basically apolitical.  And there was even a suggestion that IS claimed responsibility, saying he had been radicalised 2 months ago.  The mystery deepens.

The "explosives at home" bit sounds bad, but isn't so bad when you look into it.  Apparently, Tannerite was discovered.  That's an explosive that is detonated by a high-powered projectile.  It's marketed as a firearms training accessory for long-range target practice - when the target is hit, the Tannerite explodes so that the shooter doesn't need to walk to the target to see if there was a hit.  I can imagine it would be something keen shooters would use and it wouldn't be surprising to find it alongside high-powered rifles.

Gun laws being the way they are are not ideal, but that doesnt change the fact that this bloke is/was unhinged and took it out on innocent people.

Sure we ammended our gun laws after port arthur, but its not like that was  common occurrence like it is in the states.

People are the problem, irrespective of what means they use to harm people, and they have every right to be surprised that someone has acted in such fashion.

Absolutely. So why would you make it easy for them to procure deadly weapons?

..........................And there was even a suggestion that IS claimed responsibility, saying he had been radicalised 2 months ago.  The mystery deepens.

Daesch made those claims using the bogus name published by 4Chan, they had no idea who was doing it!

Pity that Trump didn't take the bait!  I can imagine a scene in which John Kelly was wrestling Trump on the carpet in the Oval Office in order to stop him tweeting about the shooting being proof that the Muslim bans were needed ...

Pity that Trump didn't take the bait!  I can imagine a scene in which John Kelly was wrestling Trump on the carpet in the Oval Office in order to stop him tweeting about the shooting being proof that the Muslim bans were needed ...

I suspect he'll imply that connection somehow anyway!

The US President who signs the gun control warrant is basically sentencing himself, his family or his friends to death, there is no way Trump will sign it!

He'll send us to nuclear war against North Korea first!

Absolutely. So why would you make it easy for them to procure deadly weapons?

Im not saying they or we should, but once again, I think its a bit easy to point to the gun laws.

People like this will simply turn to other methods of causing destruction.

Considering what I have seen people be able to do with soda bombs, sparklers, batterys, and all manner of other "non deadly" weapons, I think simply stating they shouldnt be surprised by events like this with their gun laws is myopic thinking.

A better question to ask, firearms laws are pretty relaxed in many parts of the world, yet only in the USA to people seem to lack the common decency and respect to respond accordingly and we are comparing to some pretty barbaric places when we say stuff like this.

There is a cultural issue occurring where people are that dissatisfied with things that they are acting out in such fashion.

Perhaps its the fact that Trump got Elected.
Perhaps its the fact that cultural marxism is being pushed.
Perhaps its the fact that Richmond won the premiership.

Take the guns off people.  I agree its probably better that they do, but Im still surprised that this guy decided to act like a complete and utter arsehole.

Im not saying they or we should, but once again, I think its a bit easy to point to the gun laws.

People like this will simply turn to other methods of causing destruction.

It's prudent to make that as difficult as possible!

Apparently, it's completely legal to sling a machine gun over your shoulder and walk down the street in Las Vegas!  Fortunately, federal legislation makes it hard to get a machine gun legally, but if you get one you can carry it around in public places in Nevada.  Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to do this if you're Black, but if you look like a Good 'Ol Boy you're good to go.

You can kill someone with a butter knife.  But I reckon you might be able to kill or maim more people if you have firearms. Just guessing, though ...

In the midst of this insanity, the NRA is pushing a Bill through Congress to overturn a ban on silencers.  WTF?

Apparently, the Bill also seeks to loosen regulations regarding the sale of armor-piercing ammunition.  This is understandable as deer may try to use armor to thwart hunters. 

Interesting article detailing the way the alt-right and the Russians spread conspiracy theories after incidents like this one: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/02/las-vegas-shooting-fake-news-guns-215670?lo=ap_c1 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/02/las-vegas-shooting-fake-news-guns-215670?lo=ap_c1).

Was interesting to hear an interview on 3AW this morning with a witness regretting he didn't have his gun with him at the time of the shooting - "if everybody had a gun, this wouldn't have happened".

This is such a deep cultural issue to half the population.  Owning a gun to protect yourself is as natural as supporting a football team.

Like the health debate, with a population of this size, sadly it's like trying to turn the Queen Mary...

Yep, this was the worst scenario for the NRA - not only was the shooter a 64 year old white guy but also this was an occasion in which general availability of guns didn't help at all.  A guitarist who played at the concert noted that he and his crew were armed but returning fire would have worsened the situation by creating confusion.  He says he's now in favour of gun control and is ashamed he was previously against it.

Was interesting to hear an interview on 3AW this morning with a witness regretting he didn't have his gun with him at the time of the shooting - "if everybody had a gun, this wouldn't have happened".

Yeah, what a loon!

Because when someone is firing at you with an automatic weapon from the 32nd floor you can shoot him dead from the ground with a handgun, at night!

Bad luck for all those suckers who wandered over to their hotel room window to find out what was going on!

The more they open their mouth, the bigger morons these gun nuts become!

A guitarist who played at the concert noted that he and his crew were armed but returning fire would have worsened the situation by creating confusion.  He says he's now in favour of gun control and is ashamed he was previously against it.

So playing the Devil's advocate,

The NRA will claim the shooter could have been stopped if those rock pussies had pulled a trigger!

Google "US gun shares soar in the wake of....."

You don't even have to bother about the location of the massacre...they're all there. ::) :(

It's actually not guns - it's the people.

I remember I was at a party once where somebody was complaining about the state of the planet - "the planet is stuffed" they said etc.

I replied that there is really not much wrong with the planet, it's the people that live here. This I think reflects the issues in the United States.

All too often its guns or gun laws that are routinely blamed - actually it's the people that live there and their attitudes to each other. I agree it does not make sense for people to have automatic weapons (for what reason would you need them?) - but the issues they have are deeper than guns.

Apparently Stephen Paddock's father was on the FBI most wanted list for years and was described as psychopathic with suicidal tendencies. He was involved in a number of bank robberies and was considered to be a very dangerous felon. Apparently also he was a jail breaker when was serving 20 years for his crimes. Well, well - a bit of pedigree there.

All too often its guns or gun laws that are routinely blamed - actually it's the people that live there and their attitudes to each other. I agree it does not make sense for people to have automatic weapons (for what reason would you need them?) - but the issues they have are deeper than guns.

Yes no doubt, but the first step is to put some controls in place, like we did when kids were killing themselves in high powered fast cars.

Every little bit helps, but this gun issue in the USA is no little bit!

How is it a right or freedom to own a weapon of mass destruction, when some countries shouldn't even be allowed to have them?

Of course guns are a problem. When people are upset at anything, have the ability to call on a gun means there will be more deaths.
This one, the only logical way it could be stopped is if the guy could not get these weapons. He might have found an alternative way to cause a devastating attack, but chances are it would have been much less.

My ex-wife just told me a month ago how she has an AR these days. My response was.. "Ok, um I don't think I will drop in on my next trip there". It is just insanity how many people have guns and ridiculous guns. When I lived there one of my stipulations was simply "no guns, not ever".

The problem is that more people in the US believe people should carry guns now than ever before. Nothing is more "un-American" than wanting guns banned.

America will never fix this, Donald Trump is a whore to the NRA, but most politicians in the US are.
There is no way to use logic to argue this with the majority of Americans.
Even Obama who obviously believed there should be gun control had zero power to ever achieve change.


Just as an example
Here are some of the comments from my ex around Guns & Gun Ownership.

Yeah. I know you crap yourself when you think about guns
Precious foreigners

It's been the most empowering thing I've ever done for myself

Learning to shoot well and having that power
And not being scared of it
It's been really good for me

Plus, if crap ever really hits the fan, I have the power to do something
It's the only reason I sleep at night
Most people I know carry every day
Pretty much everyone around me at work

Now they are just some of the chats around gun ownership.
Anyone who is against guns is "scared"
Anyone who owns is in a better position to protect society.

Now how in this instance (with my ex) she is no chance going to be able to keep a calm head in a situation (nor would most people mind you) and just casually pick up and just stop a situation where people are on a rampage. So it is just a lie.

Not only that, but whilst the 2nd amendment protects the right to bare arms, Americans are afraid to ask how relevant that is to today's society. Are arms required to overthrow a tyrannical government (for example).

Meaningful gun control will never come to the US in my opinion.

Meaningful gun control will never come to the US in my opinion.

Not while the NRA is running the place!

I agree the NRA is a HUGE reason for the problem, in fact they are the single biggest problem, but their message is 'winning'. I read over 80% support private gun ownership. 50 years ago, it was actually less than 50%.

And at Walmart it appears there is this tasty advert for "Back To School"

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22090107_1577280749001298_677032717434603434_n.jpg?oh=547dade6e292a145f742ad735b8fd879&oe=5A8496FB)

Extremely tasteful in relation to the number of school shootings of course.

This wasn't just a "guy who snapped".  This was a guy who had 17 firearms with him, another 18 and explosives at home and ammonium nitrate (which can be used to make bombs) in his car.  He had to transport his stash to a hotel room and he must have done some prep work to pick his location.  And he had to amass all of this without raising alarm. 

It seems he was wealthy - he had a pilot's licence and owned 2 planes.  He was a retired accountant.

He had no apparent criminal or mental health history.

He must have had a serious beef with someone.  There were some suggestions he had a grievance over some poker game (he regularly played $100 hands of Poker in the casinos.  But surely something more substantial will emerge in the coming weeks.

Under Obama, the FBI took the view that domestic (non-Islamic) terrorism was its main concern, but Trump has no doubt tried to change the focus.  Terrorism is now only something Muslims do.  When right-wingers kill now, they are good people who snapped or who became mentally ill. 

That's not to say that this guy was a right-winger - his family claims he was basically apolitical.  And there was even a suggestion that IS claimed responsibility, saying he had been radicalised 2 months ago.  The mystery deepens.

I'd believe that if he went downstairs and let off. The profile of the guy, is an unlikely match for this heinous crime. It appears to have been planned well in advance. Beware the old millionaire accountant!

I agree the NRA is a HUGE reason for the problem, in fact they are the single biggest problem, but their message is 'winning'. I read over 80% support private gun ownership. 50 years ago, it was actually less than 50%.

And at Walmart it appears there is this tasty advert for "Back To School"

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22090107_1577280749001298_677032717434603434_n.jpg?oh=547dade6e292a145f742ad735b8fd879&oe=5A8496FB)

Extremely tasteful in relation to the number of school shootings of course.

surreal to see this in a supermarket. For them that have become desensitized to such, perhaps not so. I believe military grade weapons have no place in civilian areas, especially a country that is one of the highest consumers of opiods and anti depressants

I made a comment on a Facebook post in which I said that automatic and semi-automatic military-style firearms are intended to kill and maim people.  I got responses along the lines that "we need our guns so that we can rise up against a future tyrannical government!"

Do these f***wits really think that a bunch of raggedy-asked civilians with small arms could take on and defeat a professional military force with armour, artillery and air support?

The fact that only muzzle loaders were available when the right to bare arms provision was inserted into the constitution seems to have slipped people's minds too.

Do these f***wits really think that a bunch of raggedy-asked civilians with small arms could take on and defeat a professional military force with armour, artillery and air support?

Yes mate, i think they do

The funny thing is that Americans probably look down on Afghanis and would believe they have nothing in common with them.  But both populations have plenty of gun-loving xenophobes with deep suspicions about central government and religious fundamentalists in both countries yearn to install theocracies.  They're made for each other.

If thus guy "snapped", why the meticulous planning? Doesn't sound like a spur of the moment act.

The fallback position has been provided by the NRA and Trump trotted it out dutifully: this was an act of pure evil and no one can stop evil.  The only one to blame is the evil-doer.

Some creative conservatives have added a few flourishes to that line, like this televangelist:

TV preacher Pat Robertson says the massacre in Las Vegas was caused by lack of respect for President Donald Trump, protests during the national anthem and the country having no “vision of God.”

“There is profound disrespect for our president, all across this nation they say terrible things about him,” the televangelist and former presidential candidate said on “The 700 Club” on Monday. “It’s in the news, it’s in other places.”

Robertson went on:

“There is disrespect now for our national anthem, disrespect for our veterans, disrespect for the institutions of our government, disrespect for the court system. All the way up and down the line, disrespect.”
He also blamed the lack of “biblical authority” and “some controlling authority in our society.”

“When there is no vision of God, the people run amok,” he said in the clip, posted online by Right Wing Watch. “And we have taken from the American people the vision of God, the whole idea of reward and punishment, an ultimate judge of all our actions, we’ve taken that away. When there is no vision of God, the people run amok.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pat-robertson-las-vegas-massacre_us_59d2e869e4b048a44324a6bb (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pat-robertson-las-vegas-massacre_us_59d2e869e4b048a44324a6bb)

Looks like a classic false flag psyop to me.

Not for a second saying no one died, but 23 odd weapons into the hotel; cops taking well over an hour to locate him and plenty of seemingly credible stuff suggesting there was a second shooter....

hmmm.

If thus guy "snapped", why the meticulous planning? Doesn't sound like a spur of the moment act.

Good point. I fear there may be a lot more to it than that.

Looks like a classic false flag psyop to me.

Not for a second saying no one died, but 23 odd weapons into the hotel; cops taking well over an hour to locate him and plenty of seemingly credible stuff suggesting there was a second shooter....

hmmm.

If seen footage that has both two guns audible and flashes coming from quite a few stories down and in a different wing of the hotel.

It's possible that it is a false flag.

The fallback position has been provided by the NRA and Trump trotted it out dutifully: this was an act of pure evil and no one can stop evil.  The only one to blame is the evil-doer.

Some creative conservatives have added a few flourishes to that line, like this televangelist:

Irrespective of the gun laws I tried to make a point like this.

The gun laws need to change.

That I won't dispute.

Irrespective of that there are a few things that won't change. People shooting others.  The obtained illegal firearms will still be available,  but they will require more planning to obtain.

Looks like a classic false flag psyop to me.

Not for a second saying no one died, but 23 odd weapons into the hotel; cops taking well over an hour to locate him and plenty of seemingly credible stuff suggesting there was a second shooter....

hmmm.

Reading too much into it FB.

One bloke with a high powered rifle converted to automatic and firing down into a crowded concert is all you need to kill and maim so many people.  Thankfully, the gunman didn't have a military background and didn't have a fireplan that would have resulted in the slaughter of even more innocent concert goers.

Pinpointing a shooter in a high rise building is not an easy task, particularly when the circumstances are chaotic and self-preservation is front of mind.

Suggestions that the shooter "snapped" may well be correct but, if so, the "snap" happened well before he acquired his arsenal and set up his firing point.  It clearly wasn't a spur of the moment action but was a carefully planned act of terror.

Thryleon, the old saying is that all evil needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing.  And the conservatives are saying good men can do nothing to stop evil.  Interesting juxtaposition there. 

Of course, the conservatives have a way of dealing with it.  Prayer.  For instance, did you know you can pray the gay away?  It's that simple!

But Pat Robertson is onto something.  Disrespecting POTUS, the court system and institutions of Government creates havoc.  Except when Trump promoted the birther movement to delegitimise Obama, said Judge Curiel couldn't judge him because he was Mexican and tries to ride roughshod over Congress.  Because that's different.

If seen footage that has both two guns audible and flashes coming from quite a few stories down and in a different wing of the hotel.

It's possible that it is a false flag.

The Hotel's windows couldn't be opened.  That's why the shooter knocked holes in them, apparently with a hammer-type object he brought with him.  The holes were clearly visible in photos and video taken after the shooting.  AFAIK, no other smashed windows were observed.  That puts that issue to bed, doesn't it?

The Hotel's windows couldn't be opened.  That's why the shooter knocked holes in them, apparently with a hammer-type object he brought with him.  The holes were clearly visible in photos and video taken after the shooting.  AFAIK, no other smashed windows were observed.  That puts that issue to bed, doesn't it?

If you say so

I'm open to suggestions.  But the reporting so far does allege that the hotel's windows couldn't be opened.  Given many guests might lose the shirts off their backs in the gaming areas, that's probably a wise decision.

The Hotel's windows couldn't be opened.  That's why the shooter knocked holes in them, apparently with a hammer-type object he brought with him.  The holes were clearly visible in photos and video taken after the shooting.  AFAIK, no other smashed windows were observed.  That puts that issue to bed, doesn't it?

Not really Mav, wasn't there a grassy knoll nearby?

 :))
Or maybe those damn Russians are at it again ...

From what I understand, this shooter must have been extremely skilled to have killed and wounded 573 people at a distance of 400 or so yards in the time alleged by the police? Be interested to see how this unfolds.

He had lots of bullets...and he was firing them pretty fast.

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories.
For mass events too many people would have to be in on them...and some would surely talk.
People guess and propose theories....but nothing has been proved (moon landing, 9/11)...just questions asked.

In this case what would
a) Be the purpose of a cover up/conspiracy?
b) Why target C&W fans?
c) Why would "more than one shooter" be kept quiet...if there's another mad-man out there surely that would be important to know?
d) With a number of agencies involved in the investigation which is the alleged "holder back of information"...because you cant have an official cover-up without officials being involved?

I don't know.

I just share what I have seen.

The questions are a bit wrong though Lods.

Its not about what is to gain from this being a hoax.  The question is, what is going on elsewhere that this needs to bump off the paper.


Like I said, Ive seen the flashes and heard the audio.  It could be explained by someone taking photos, or perhaps someone else firing back up at the shooter and the audio could be an echo, but odds are we will never know any different.

He had lots of bullets...and he was firing them pretty fast.

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories.
For mass events too many people would have to be in on them...and some would surely talk.
People guess and propose theories....but nothing has been proved (moon landing, 9/11)...just questions asked.

In this case what would
a) Be the purpose of a cover up/conspiracy?
b) Why target C&W fans?
c) Why would "more than one shooter" be kept quiet...if there's another mad-man out there surely that would be important to know?
d) With a number of agencies involved in the investigation which is the alleged "holder back of information"...because you cant have an official cover-up without officials being involved?

Is there a conspiracy theory about this one Lods - what have you heard?

The Hotel's windows couldn't be opened.  That's why the shooter knocked holes in them, apparently with a hammer-type object he brought with him.  The holes were clearly visible in photos and video taken after the shooting.  AFAIK, no other smashed windows were observed.  That puts that issue to bed, doesn't it?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-03/was-there-second-shooter-vegas (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-03/was-there-second-shooter-vegas)

Perhaps you should have stayed in bed Mav?

Thanks for the link Flyboy.  Very entertaining.

The comments section is fantastic and I found the answer to my query there:

IH8OBAMA Oct 3, 2017 7:03 PM
Broken windows?

We're talking pro level here, broken windows would be a dead giveaway.

These guys had a removable window pre-installed OR just removed/replaced it themselves.

Broken windows!

But can I trust someone with that username?

Glass cutter, some 3 in 1 and a piece of string would have been neater

My favourite comment:.

jefferson32  Dsyno Oct 4, 2017 1:55 PM
If you count the ground floor as the first floor (as you should) "Paddock" was on the 33rd floor. The festival was called 91 road "harvest" festival by "sirius". The shooting happened 133 days after the Ariana Grande Manchester false flag. Oct 1st is 91 days before end of year. The two broken windows are 9-11 apart (counting and not counting the broken windows). The shooter fired for "9 to 11" minutes according to media. The whole thing happened at the foot of a pyramid, with its top alight, facing an obelisk. It happened during a kabbalistic holiday known for its mandated blood sacrifices.

What else do you need?? So many hermetic numbers and symbols. Just like 911 and most attacks after it. This was not only a false flag, it was an occult sacrifice.

The conspiracy theorists are having a great time  >:(

I just read one f***wit's claim that the shooter carefully planned the slaughter in order to put pressure on governments for stricter gun laws  ::)

Problem is Mav, none of what you have said dispels a second - or even more - shooters.

You really reckon reckon a guy strolls into a top line hotel with 23 weapons...

Really, this is just laughable...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/how-las-vegas-killer-brought-22-guns-and-10000-bullets-into-a-hotel-20171002-gyt3d5.html (http://www.smh.com.au/world/how-las-vegas-killer-brought-22-guns-and-10000-bullets-into-a-hotel-20171002-gyt3d5.html)

The focus needs to on the credibility of the official narrative whenever that may be released. Was it possible for one shooter without any military training to wreak such carnage over the alleged timeframe, with a modified semi-automatic weapon that would have required a number of magazine changes from a range of nearly 400 yards? I leave it to the experts to explain.

:))
Or maybe those damn Russians are at it again ...

Yourself and DJC went too early with the mocking of fellow posters.

Police are now saying they don't believe he acted alone.

Lee Harvey Oswald?

To go with what MBB has stated.

As Aristotle said:

"An enlightened mind will entertain an idea without accepting it."



This event occurred.  That's not what I'm disputing here.  The story we are being fed about whom is responsible is what I find a little far fetched, if not downright unbelievable.  Particularly with footage showing otherwise.

So?

From what I heard, the query is whether he had some assistance in his preparations.  One obvious source of assistance is on dark web chatrooms on which he could have obtained advice about modifying semi-automatics using the legally-available butt-stock device he used and general firearms and explosives advice.  I can imagine survivalist, militia and alt-right guys would have been only too willing to share their accrued knowledge in taking on the global conspiracy using such things as lipstick cameras to give early warning if the forces of evil try to storm their bunkers. 

AFAIK, there has been absolutely no suggestion from police that a 2nd shooter was involved or even possibly involved. 

There is some evidence (a hotel receipt) apparently to suggest that the shooter dined in his room at the Mandalay Bay with another person on the night of 28th Sept, which is the night before he allegedly checked into the hotel. Could be a mistake but it certainly needs to be investigated.

So?

From what I heard, the query is whether he had some assistance in his preparations.  One obvious source of assistance is on dark web chatrooms on which he could have obtained advice about modifying semi-automatics using the legally-available butt-stock device he used and general firearms and explosives advice.  I can imagine survivalist, militia and alt-right guys would have been only too willing to share their accrued knowledge in taking on the global conspiracy using such things as lipstick cameras to give early warning if the forces of evil try to storm their bunkers. 

AFAIK, there has been absolutely no suggestion from police that a 2nd shooter was involved or even possibly involved.

Like I said.

Entertain the idea with or without accepting it.

Thats up to you.

When others state that perhaps the story we are being fed is wrong, that doesnt mean that it will be proven conclusively, because all we have to go on is what we are told about it.

The official stories always have holes like swiss cheese.

Ive heard and read that perhaps this guy wasnt even the shooter, that the hotel was his and thats all his involvement in this episode is aside from being the dead body found in the room.

That might be harder to believe.  I don't know, and pretty much I don't care all that much.

Something else that I also do, is reject what people tell me to believe.  All I do is gather facts and raise possiblities.   You can mock them if you like, personally I couldnt care about that.

Thryleon, are you talking about the cabbie footage supposedly showing muzzle flash from floors beneath the identified shooter (referred to in the link Flyboy provided)?  As one comment noted on that webpage, the same flashing light was apparent after the shooting finished and appears to be a flashing light inside the hotel. 

Why do we need to question "the official version"?  Why not let the investigation wend its way slowly and methodically given this is the best way for law enforcement to proceed?  Why do we have to fill in gaps in our knowledge with conspiracy theories? 

Why would there be a 2nd shooter?  Why would that shooter have been much more concerned with staying under the radar than the other shooter?  Multiple shooters might be worthwhile if terrorists fear that a lone shooter may be apprehended or neutralised quickly.  Or if the aim is to work towards a big death toll.  But if the aim is terror, why would 100 kills be better than 58?  And surely the mythical back-up shooter would have been happy to simply watch without running any risks given that the 1st shooter was shooting for minutes?  Why didn't the 2nd shooter pick up the batton once the 1st shooter stopped firing?  There's no compelling logic that requires us to fill in the gaps in knowledge by creating a 2nd shooter.

Yourself and DJC went too early with the mocking of fellow posters.

Police are now saying they don't believe he acted alone.

He made the room booking in his girlfriends name, so unless he introduced himself as Marilou the booking had to be for two people!

I doubt the police think much of this, more media speculation.

There is some evidence (a hotel receipt) apparently to suggest that the shooter dined in his room at the Mandalay Bay with another person on the night of 28th Sept, which is the night before he allegedly checked into the hotel. Could be a mistake but it certainly needs to be investigated.

He was an alien time traveler, sent back from the reign of the machines to kill the leader of the resistance!

America is forked!

I'm waiting for the new NRA magic bullet theory, just one shot ricocheting around the venue, an accident from a harmless enthusiast in town for a gun collectors conference!

So?

From what I heard, the query is whether he had some assistance in his preparations.  One obvious source of assistance is on dark web chatrooms on which he could have obtained advice about modifying semi-automatics using the legally-available butt-stock device he used and general firearms and explosives advice.  I can imagine survivalist, militia and alt-right guys would have been only too willing to share their accrued knowledge in taking on the global conspiracy using such things as lipstick cameras to give early warning if the forces of evil try to storm their bunkers. 

AFAIK, there has been absolutely no suggestion from police that a 2nd shooter was involved or even possibly involved.

THE sheriff leading the investigation into the Las Vegas shooting believes the gunman was not acting alone and that he most likely had an accomplice.
Speaking to reporters on Wednesday afternoon, sheriff Joseph Lombardo said “he had to have some help”.
Mr Lombardo said investigators did not have any other suspects at this stage, but they were “determined to find out if there was”.
“You look at the weapon obtaining, the different amounts of Tannerite [explosives] available, do you think this was all accomplished on his own?
“On face value, you’ve got to make the assumption he had to have some help at some point, and we want to ensure that that’s the answer.”   

Mr Lombardo’s frank comments put into doubt an explanation previously put forward by authorities that he was a “lone wolf”.
In explaining his theory, the sheriff mentioned Mr Paddock’s arsenal of 47 guns and a “plethora” of ammunition, plus his two Nevada residences. He also made mention of his girlfriend, former Australian resident Marilou Danley, who has been named as a “person of interest” in the investigation.
“Maybe he’s a super guy that was working this all out on his own, but it would be hard for me to believe that,” the sheriff said.
“Here’s the reason why: put two and two together. Another residence in Reno with several firearms, electronics and everything else associated with large amounts of ammo, a place in Mesquite, we know that he had a girlfriend. Do you think this is all self-facing? An individual, without talking to somebody, just sequestered among themselves? I mean, come on folks.”

There is some evidence (a hotel receipt) apparently to suggest that the shooter dined in his room at the Mandalay Bay with another person on the night of 28th Sept, which is the night before he allegedly checked into the hotel. Could be a mistake but it certainly needs to be investigated.

Of course it should be investigated.  And his friends, family and associates need to be thoroughly debriefed (as is now happening to his partner) and investigate if necessary.  But there's a pretty obvious possibility that a rich guy who is perhaps on the eve of his own death might splurge on a high-class hooker for a night. 

Of course it should be investigated.  And his friends, family and associates need to be thoroughly debriefed (as is now happening to his partner) and investigate if necessary.  But there's a pretty obvious possibility that a rich guy who is perhaps on the eve of his own death might splurge on a high-class hooker for a night.

I'm sure there are all sorts of possibilities, obvious and otherwise. Some are even called conspiracy theories.

There is a significant difference between a conspiracy and an incorrect or inconclusive investigation.

There is nothing to suggest there was not a 2nd shooter and if there was, there is nothing to suggest that the officials are covering it up. The suggestion of a cover up/conspiracy is clickbait for junky fake news sites looking for hits/$$.

MBB, that's consistent with what I posted.  So far, it appears that his many firearms purchases were made by him personally but he kept them under the radar by spreading out those purchases over time and a number of different gunshops in a couple of states.  It's pretty sick that people can seek out advice on the internet about how to make bombs and modify weapons to kill people more effectively.  The joys of an uncensored internet, I guess. 

“You look at the weapon obtaining, the different amounts of Tannerite [explosives] available, do you think this was all accomplished on his own?
“On face value, you’ve got to make the assumption he had to have some help at some point, and we want to ensure that that’s the answer.” 

You mean somebody sold him the stuff, probably an Islamist International Arms dealer, they killed and wounded hundreds to cover their tracks in the assassination of a person who had proof of Russia's involvement in the Trump election!  ::)

Or, a fat America Sheriff cannot believe one man could carry all that stuff to the 32nd floor, it must have been assisted by the Bellboy!  ::)

This media and internet speculation is rubbish, the USA and the NRA cannot possibly allow the reality of this to sink in, because Americans never do anything wrong and it's not the guns fault!

They are fat because the food companies do it to them, people are killed by the devil not guns or other people, cars kill people because of acts of God, climate change is because of the sun, a multinational company gave them cancer, a terrorist used imported illegal weapons, micro-chips are put in their teeth fillings by the government! ::)

---

Reality is Occam's Razor. A forkwit, probably a mentally ill forkwit with money to burn, slowly snapped and shot dead a bunch of people in a country where weapons of mass destruction can be purchased with an appropriately presented drivers license and delivered with a picnic hamper a few hours after a cooling off period!

FFS, some banks or credit unions still hand out weapons when you open a new account!

Yourself and DJC went too early with the mocking of fellow posters.

Police are now saying they don't believe he acted alone.

I don't know that I mocked other posters but I did mock the conspiracy theorists who, for whatever reason, want to believe that there was more than one shooter.

As for the carnage caused, any competent shooter familiar with his/her weapons and with 100 round magazines could manage that.  Fortunately, the shooter didn't have military training or the toll could have been much worse.

I don't know that I mocked other posters but I did mock the conspiracy theorists who, for whatever reason, want to believe that there was more than one shooter.

As for the carnage caused, any competent shooter familiar with his/her weapons and with 100 round magazines could manage that.  Fortunately, the shooter didn't have military training or the toll could have been much worse.

Thanks for sharing your ballistics expertise with us DJC. I think I'll wait for the official version.

Thanks for sharing your ballistics expertise with us DJC. I think I'll wait for the official version.

DJC is correct, anybody can modify an existing carbine to be rapid fire. Kits are available commercially for popular brands.

[flash=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/v/U7DTjSla-O8[/flash]

Also sniper type weapons are widely available. In my younger days I was a sporting shooter, I got rid of my weapons when my first child was born. At that time I had rifles including Ruger Mini-14, SIG Sniper rifle and Lee Enfield 303 jungle editions. The Ruger could be modified with a 100 round circular clip and bit of bent metal not much more than a hair or paper clip to deliver 7 rounds per second. It wouldn't last long like that, but long enough to empty a full clip. The SIG Sniper rifle, with the right ammunition, had lock down groupings of 40mm at a range of 2000 metres. The .303 with full grain ammunition would go through two car doors, three 44 gallon drums or a heavy duty plough blade. All were freely and widely available in Australia.

They seem excessive, but if a boar or water buffalo are charging at you they feel like a toothpick!

Despite what these weapons can do, if most people tried to use them they'd be lucky to hit the hotel let alone a tiny little shooter firing at them from 350m away! The girl in that video knows what she is doing, she isn't a rookie, and she'll struggle to keep a grouping on that car only 30m or 40m away!

The point that is important here, these modifications you can buy in the USA have no purpose in hunting. They are clumsy, useless, uncontrolled, rapid fire pyrotechnics that reduce precision rifles into long range shotguns. The kits are not designed for hunting, and should not be available to the public under any circumstance!

@LP

All very interesting stuff LP. I was reading a report that was saying that Paddock, as the single shooter, over the elapsed time the police allege and using only 30 round magazines would have have been killing or wounding 2.1 people every second. I find that pretty amazing shooting with what was a modified semi automatic weapon. I'll await the official report though - premature to jump to any conclusions.

@LP

All very interesting stuff LP. I was reading a report that was saying that Paddock, as the single shooter, over the elapsed time the police allege and using only 30 round magazines would have have been killing or wounding 2.1 people every second. I find that pretty amazing shooting with what was a modified semi automatic weapon. I'll await the official report though - premature to jump to any conclusions.

2.1 people per second on average.

But he started by firing into a tightly packed concert crowd, he would have been killing or injuring far more than that per second initially. It would be like firing at blades of grass on the lawn.

Depending what rounds he used, some shots might have easily killed more than one person. If he concentrated fire on the crowd pinch points he'd be able to sustain a high rate.

After that, once the crowd dispersed, the automatic weapon would be mostly useless at the range described. See the video of the girl 30m away from the car, a good deal of her shots hit the ground or pass over the vehicle. He probably switched to one of the DDM4s or a similar sniper type rifles he had in the room, but most of the damage was probably already done. A 30 round clip, 5s to empty and another 5s or less to change in a fresh one! Rehearsed, I think 90 Rnds per minute is easily attainable, the thing that apparently stitched him up was the smoke building up in the hotel room.

How can psychology, welfare and law enforcement deal with a situation that can do so much damage in such a short period of time. Weapons control is the only answer!

The point that is important here, these modifications you can buy in the USA have no purpose in hunting. They are clumsy, useless, uncontrolled, rapid fire pyrotechnics that reduce precision rifles into long range shotguns. The kits are not designed for hunting, and should not be available to the public under any circumstance!

Some former military guy on CNN said that the US Army has used limiters on their automatic weapons so they shoot in bursts of 3.  Says that the military is concerned that the adrenaline rush can otherwise lead to adverse results.  He wondered why the US Army doesn't need or desire continuous fire but "sporting" shooters do.

Thryleon, are you talking about the cabbie footage supposedly showing muzzle flash from floors beneath the identified shooter (referred to in the link Flyboy provided)?  As one comment noted on that webpage, the same flashing light was apparent after the shooting finished and appears to be a flashing light inside the hotel. 

Maybe, I don't really know.  I saw a clip, and heard some audio.  Was it a cabbie?  Was it someone else?  I don't know.  Was it the same hotel?  Absolutely.  Like I stated, was it even a second shooter?  I don't know nut the audio I heard had two guns firing at once and like I said, perhaps it was simply an echo of the first gun.  All I am doing is raising a possibility that the story might be different to what we are being told.

Why do we need to question "the official version"?  Why not let the investigation wend its way slowly and methodically given this is the best way for law enforcement to proceed?  Why do we have to fill in gaps in our knowledge with conspiracy theories? 

Because like I stated in a previous post, I reject information I am given because I have seen far too many instances of being told lies and mistruths.  Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq would be my number one counter argument here.  Why am I like this?  Personally, I like to form my own opinion of circumstances rather than believe the rhetoric.  This is what I call keeping an open mind.  Another one that I can bring up here, is that the pentagon was not hit with a plane, but rather some sort of missile.  what that was, I cant say, but the facts point to the official story being wrong.  Then they go marching into the middle east causing trouble, and I always keep in mind that perhaps the USA is the aggressor in these circumstances, rather than simply "defending themselves".  Still, such is life.  I won't find out for sure either way, but if ideas were never challenged, we would all believe the world was flat wouldn't we??

Why would there be a 2nd shooter?  Why would that shooter have been much more concerned with staying under the radar than the other shooter?  Multiple shooters might be worthwhile if terrorists fear that a lone shooter may be apprehended or neutralised quickly.  Or if the aim is to work towards a big death toll.  But if the aim is terror, why would 100 kills be better than 58?  And surely the mythical back-up shooter would have been happy to simply watch without running any risks given that the 1st shooter was shooting for minutes?  Why didn't the 2nd shooter pick up the batton once the 1st shooter stopped firing?  There's no compelling logic that requires us to fill in the gaps in knowledge by creating a 2nd shooter.

I don't know, but to find the answer to these questions, you would have to understand the motive behind why this whole thing happened in the first place which might we wide and varied and largely not likely to yield results we will ever know for sure.  i.e. It might have been an assasination of one specific person and to dilute it by murdering another 100 odd people and pinning it on a fall guy might be how they get away with it. Or I might have an overactive imagination.

Perhaps the second shooter simply killed this guy, pinned the whole ordeal on him, and then has vanished into the night.  Free to murder again in his own time whilst this guy takes the blame and that means there is another unhinged person out there we should really be worried about.


Or maybe we should just take your word for it and wonder why on earth this person acted out like that, paint him as unhinged and pretend that there are not more threats to our safety out there?

Take your pick what you want to believe.  Ill keep my mind open for now and we will see where this ends up.

In the meantime ask yourself the following question.  By being so outright dismissive of an alternative truth, are you being like Galileo who is searching for the truth?  Or those who called him heretic and tried to squash his theory that the world was indeed round like he stated??

@LP

So around 180 rounds per minute? Apparently the police allege about 4 mins firing time so about 720 rounds all up and 573 people hit. Seems like pretty good shooting to me.

Las Vegas SWAT was able to gain entry into Paddock's suite about an hour after the first shots were fired.

I read it was closer to 75 minutes.....

http://abc7chicago.com/security-guard-first-found-las-vegas-shooters-room/2490027/ (http://abc7chicago.com/security-guard-first-found-las-vegas-shooters-room/2490027/)

I note the LVPD HQ is 15 minutes - at regular speed - from the Mandalay...

And is Mav prepared to argue a large casino - liked the Mandalay Bay Resort - wouldn't have a heavy duty armed security team, and mega SUPER HIGH TECH camera EVERYWHERE!?

@LP

So around 180 rounds per minute? Apparently the police allege about 4 mins firing time so about 720 rounds all up and 573 people hit. Seems like pretty good shooting to me.

The injured are easy to account for in a real world situation, things like one round hitting multiple people, bullet fragmentation, shrapnel from masonry fragments, bone fragments, ricochets, etc., etc..

When the press report somebody being shot, they don't discriminate between shrapnel injuries and direct shootings.

The injured are easy to account for in a real world situation, things like one round hitting multiple people, bullet fragmentation, masonry fragments, bone fragments, ricochets, etc., etc..

Mmm, I guess we'll see - eventually.

The injured are easy to account for in a real world situation, things like one round hitting multiple people, bullet fragmentation, masonry fragments, bone fragments, ricochets, etc., etc..

People can also get injured trying to flee.  They don't have to be hit by a gun to be injured.  They can fall over and break and arm and a leg, or get trampled by someone else trying to get out of the way.

People can also get injured trying to flee.  They don't have to be hit by a gun to be injured.  They can fall over and break and arm and a leg, or get trampled by someone else trying to get out of the way.

Very true, the injuries can be caused by the shooting without being shot.

But if the shooting didn't happen, the other injuries wouldn't have happened either, so no guns is the answer!

And is Mav prepared to argue a large casino - liked the Mandalay Bay Resort - wouldn't have a heavy duty armed security team, and mega SUPER HIGH TECH camera EVERYWHERE!?

Everywhere save for the rooms themselves.  I assume the Hotel was also a casino but I haven't actually seen that stated. 

Apparently, the rooms were let via Air bNb rather than the Hotel.  Not sure what importance that fact has.

The police may have delayed entry until they were sure the room wasn't booby-trapped.  Weren't they satisfied the shooter was down within minutes of the end of firing?  But is there really any suggestion that the police refused to intervene quickly?

Personally, there's little suggestion that the police are following a script.  They seem open to the possibility of others providing unwitting or deliberate support.  Seems to be all that one could want.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjp9vmc39jWAhXMEbwKHXuSDTUQFghBMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mandalaybay.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw2qLaJRyvVBZ5a9vIWIhC4Y (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjp9vmc39jWAhXMEbwKHXuSDTUQFghBMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mandalaybay.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw2qLaJRyvVBZ5a9vIWIhC4Y)

Yep - as I said, I assumed that was the case.  Why anyone would visit that city is beyond me ...

Personally, there's little suggestion that the police are following a script.  They seem open to the possibility of others providing unwitting or deliberate support.  Seems to be all that one could want.

Agreed.

The media like to paint the "Assistance" angle to imply "Deliberate Assistance" but it could be completely incidental.

Online media is loving the ISIS and converting to Islam last month conspiracy, but it has emerged the stash of weapons were mostly purchase last October! A year ago!

The Presidential Election was in October.  Wonder if there's any connection.

Thanks for sharing your ballistics expertise with us DJC. I think I'll wait for the official version.

I didn't mention ballistics Cookie but, since you raised it, shooting downwards is difficult because the trajectory and sight line diverge significantly.  Either the shooter knew this and compensated or he adjusted his aim after observing the fall of shot. 

Like you, I'll be waiting for the official version but I suspect that we won't get too much detail.

On a different matter, how about the unarmed security guard who was shot after approaching the shooter's room?  Tragedies/disasters often seem to unearth unlikely heroes.  Apparently the shooter fired 200 rounds into the hall (through the wall) and only one struck the guard  :o

And that seemed to bring an end to the shooting out the windows.  The shooter seemed to become obsessed with what was coming to his door.  So the security guard in a real sense stopped the carnage. 

I didn't mention ballistics Cookie but, since you raised it, shooting downwards is difficult because the trajectory and sight line diverge significantly.  Either the shooter knew this and compensated or he adjusted his aim after observing the fall of shot. 

Like you, I'll be waiting for the official version but I suspect that we won't get too much detail.

On a different matter, how about the unarmed security guard who was shot after approaching the shooter's room?  Tragedies/disasters often seem to unearth unlikely heroes.  Apparently the shooter fired 200 rounds into the hall (through the wall) and only one struck the guard  :o

No you didn't mention it but your post implied knowledge of it, as does this one.

Five seconds to change out on an M4/AR15.... More like less than two with practice.

I have a theory that most, if not all, of the sociopaths, psychopaths or whatevers who commit mass murder do so in search of fame and that's why I will never use their names.  The person who slaughtered so many innocent concert goers in Las Vegas will always be the shooter or the gunman as far as I'm concerned.

I have a theory that most, if not all, of the sociopaths, psychopaths or whatevers who commit mass murder do so in search of fame and that's why I will never use their names.  The person who slaughtered so many innocent concert goers in Las Vegas will always be the shooter or the gunman as far as I'm concerned.

Same reason so many avoid the use of the Port Arthur animal’s name. Take away ‘oxygen’ and they eventually ‘die’.

Same reason so many avoid the use of the Port Arthur animal’s name. Take away ‘oxygen’ and they eventually ‘die’.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to deter new ones springing up.

Wow, just wow.

So it appears the shoot out with the guards inside that hotel allegedly happened before the mass shooting!

Yet the authorities allowed the multiple shooter conspiracies and other rubbish to persist, in full knowledge that the mass shooting allegedly happened after the shootout with the hotel guards! Further there is now no doubt that authorities knew exactly where the shooter was! Not only was the guard there before it started, the guard also warned another hotel staff member to stay clear.

It's hard to imagine what all that expensive sniper and night vision equipment is supplied to the authorities for if they are not going to use it! I suppose there was some concern that firing into the the shooters room from the ground might set off an explosive.

Firing at the shooter's room from the ground would have resulted in a large area of the building being sprayed with bullets and would never have been an option.  Even if a sniper had been available, shooting up at the 32nd floor would be problematic and, even if the right trajectory could be calculated, the chances of a hit would be slim. 

The security guard must not have had a radio or a phone  ??? He was able to warn the maintenance worker but not contact colleagues or the police.

At least the second shooter theory has been put to bed and it doesn't seem that there was a co-conspirator or accomplice ... and no suggestion of a motive.

who says the 2nd shooter 'theory' has been put to bed!?

That's just like saying the 9/11 official story is legitimate.

Wonder what the forensics on the ground at the concert venue may reveal - where the bullets may have been fired from etc? I haven't seen anything published about that as yet.

And not one piece of security footage.

I also understand that windows in these casino buildings are indeed heavily reinforced (ie f'n hard to break) due to the fear of suicide and the like = bad PR and indeed, the windows have inbuilt breakage sensors for the very same reasons....

who says the 2nd shooter 'theory' has been put to bed!?

That's just like saying the 9/11 official story is legitimate.

Or that the moon landings really happened?

Or that the moon landings really happened?

Funny you go there DJC.

Ever noticed how man went to the moon in the '60s, some 230k miles or whatever away - first attempt, no dramas - straight through massive radiation belts, but in 2017 man can't leave what they call Lower Earth Orbit.

What are the odds?

We visited many cosmic places in the 60s - with a little help from our "friends".  8)

Bit of a blurr these days unfortunately.

Funny you go there DJC.

Ever noticed how man went to the moon in the '60s, some 230k miles or whatever away - first attempt, no dramas - straight through massive radiation belts, but in 2017 man can't leave what they call Lower Earth Orbit.

What are the odds?

The crew of Apollo 1 would be pleased to hear that. :(

The crew of Apollo 1 would be pleased to hear that. :(

Over the years I've meet a few of the Astronauts at the Avalon Airshow. At first they thought the moon landing conspiracy theorists were a laugh, but they all grew weary of them very quickly!

One thing is for certain, that Saturn Studio used for the Cassini hoax must be forking big! ;D

In our lifetime we are likely to be in a position to travel in LEO to London or LA if we can afford the fair. I also think we'll see Boom (https://boomsupersonic.com) using mini-Concord type aircraft within a decade for Trans-Pacific and Atlantic flights.

On a final note, I hear SA are heavily into planning a launch facility, after the announcement of a new space institute, but reality is it is best located as close as possible to the equator and the SA politicians are jerking their gherkin!

The crew of Apollo 1 would be pleased to hear that. :(

Don't start me on the Gus Grissom debacle.

Don't start me on the Gus Grissom debacle.

I bet you believe in magic bullets! :o

I bet you believe in magic bullets! :o

Well the CFC certainly used to!  :)

Well the CFC certainly used to!  :)

Bazinga!

Over the years I've meet a few of the Astronauts at the Avalon Airshow. At first they thought the moon landing conspiracy theorists were a laugh, but they all grew weary of them very quickly!

One thing is for certain, that Saturn Studio used for the Cassini hoax must be forking big! ;D

In our lifetime we are likely to be in a position to travel in LEO to London or LA if we can afford the fair. I also think we'll see Boom (https://boomsupersonic.com) using mini-Concord type aircraft within a decade for Trans-Pacific and Atlantic flights.

On a final note, I hear SA are heavily into planning a launch facility, after the announcement of a new space institute, but reality is it is best located as close as possible to the equator and the SA politicians are jerking their gherkin!

So how did those Apollo lads gets through - and back through - those nasty little (not) Van Allen Belts?

You don't need to be a flat earther to question what the hell happened in Vegas that night.

So how did those Apollo lads gets through - and back through - those nasty little (not) Van Allen Belts?

Ask your radiologist next time you are getting a scan! ;)

Ask your radiologist next time you are getting a scan! ;)

Too late, the question was asked. He had NO idea....

Too late, the question was asked. He had NO idea....

Well he knows well that he's alive because of the same materials that keep him safe at work.

good analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxmEFeKy8aI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxmEFeKy8aI)

You don't even have to watch the video, just read the spiel below to show what a load of bullshizen it is!

The sad part of this is really that some people will believe it! :(

Fair dinkum, the mods should remove that sort of rubbish from both Youtube and here. The publisher is in the realm of nutters!

You don't even have to watch the video, just read the spiel below to show what a load of bullshizen it is!

The sad part of this is really that some people will believe it! :(

Fair dinkum, the mods should remove that sort of rubbish from both Youtube and here. The publisher is in the realm of nutters!

What are your credentials LP to make such a seemingly expert and forceful pronouncement? Sounds like a nerve has been hit.

good analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxmEFeKy8aI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxmEFeKy8aI)

I have read another report, and I'm not an expert by any means, that claims that some of the firing patterns are consistent with a belt-fed weapon. I have no experience of what that sounds like so I can't comment further.

What are your credentials LP to make such a seemingly expert and forceful pronouncement? Sounds like a nerve has been hit.

None Cookie.

You don't need science or math to debunk this sort of rubbish, you just have to ask basic questions that the wild theories won't cover;

Like how do you use a point source microphone to analyse sounds that echo between skyscrapers?
Why none of the ten of thousands of people there on the night have unambiguously reported a second shooter?
Why none of the hundreds of participating active law enforcement officers report or engaged a second shooter?
The complete absence of unambiguous physical evidence such as hundreds or even thousands of spent ammo casings?

The list goes on and on and on!

I'm sure these people would watch phone footage of a CBD fireworks display and argue there was more than one show! ;D

None Cookie.

You don't need science or math to debunk this sort of rubbish, you just have to ask basic questions that the wild theories won't cover;

Like how do you use a point source microphone to analyse sounds that echo between skyscrapers?
Why none of the ten of thousands of people there on the night have unambiguously reported a second shooter?
Why none of the hundreds of participating active law enforcement officers report or engaged a second shooter?
The complete absence of unambiguous physical evidence such as hundreds or even thousands of spent ammo casings?

The list goes on and on and on!

I'm sure these people would watch phone footage of a CBD fireworks display and argue there was more than one show! ;D

Fair enough, I'll leave you to find answers to all of those questions of detail yourself as I am not qualified to offer them.
One thing that struck me about the video though is that the guy clearly put out his hypothesis and then tried to support it with analysis and math. He did not seem to be trying to hide anything imo. At least he's put it out there, up front, for anyone prepared to offer critique and it would be interesting to see what further expert analysis might make of it.

None Cookie.

You don't need science or math to debunk this sort of rubbish, you just have to ask basic questions that the wild theories won't cover;

Like how do you use a point source microphone to analyse sounds that echo between skyscrapers?
Why none of the ten of thousands of people there on the night have unambiguously reported a second shooter?
Why none of the hundreds of participating active law enforcement officers report or engaged a second shooter?
The complete absence of unambiguous physical evidence such as hundreds or even thousands of spent ammo casings?

The list goes on and on and on!

I'm sure these people would watch phone footage of a CBD fireworks display and argue there was more than one show! ;D

you're digging a big hole here LP.

Another head burier...

next.

i'll stick to the footy.

The problem with this stuff is that the internet is so full of information that if someone puts up a theory then there is always an article you can find within seconds that discredits the author.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/03/11/mike-adams-a-k-a-the-health-ranger-a-health-seamster-profiled/

https://thinkprogress.org/meet-the-internet-entrepreneur-profiting-off-the-anti-vaxxer-movement-2e3ba8f791b9/

Makes it hard to give credence to anything on face value and time consuming to research it.

Again, playing the man not the ball Lods.

I expected better from you.

The problem with this stuff is that the internet is so full of information that if someone puts up a theory then there is always an article you can find within seconds that discredits the author.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/03/11/mike-adams-a-k-a-the-health-ranger-a-health-seamster-profiled/

https://thinkprogress.org/meet-the-internet-entrepreneur-profiting-off-the-anti-vaxxer-movement-2e3ba8f791b9/

Very true Lods. That's why I would like to see further bona fide expert analysis before we rush to any conclusions. Hopefully an official report will be released that scientifically clears all of this up - do you think?

Again, playing the man not the ball Lods.

I expected better from you.

No
Although I'm not strong on conspiracy stuff.
I've just added to the post...I'm buggered if I know where the truth lies.

By the same token you have to also consider there is a possibility this bloke might be a bit of a whacko rather than a guru...otherwise you're guilty of taking him as being right which is exactly the same issue as taking the official version on face value.

No
Although I'm not strong on conspiracy stuff.
I've just added to the post...I'm buggered if I know where the truth lies.

By the same token you have to also consider there is a possibility this bloke might be a bit of a whacko rather than a guru...otherwise you're guilty of taking him as being right which is exactly the same issue as taking the official version on face value.

And to illustrate your point Lods, Orac (aka Dr David H. Gorski) , whose blog you quoted, is accused by some as being a "vaccine industry front man". So yes, caution is required

And to illustrate your point Lods, Orac (aka Dr David H. Gorski) , whose blog you quoted, is accused by some as being a "vaccine industry front man". So yes, caution is required

Exactly!
(although I'm a pro vaccinator so that makes him a good man in my eyes)

The problem is researching sources and counter sources for their credentials can take an age.

Again, playing the man not the ball Lods.

I expected better from you.

I know exactly why you post, I didn't answer your post to debate you, to save you or change your mind. I suspect it's too late for you!

But there are kids all over the place that finds these forums and read posts, even amongst our members there are parents like MBB who have kids that might well read the forums as youngsters in the years to come. So it seems right to post to try and prevent them from being indoctrinated by nutters and weirdos!

The posts like those you link to are not funny or entertaining, the conspiracies floated to draw in a just a few extra pennies from a website are neither innocent or benign, they are bait for those incapable or ill-equipped to rationally deal with these sorts of issues, and it can have very real life long consequences for some.

Exactly!
(although I'm a pro vaccinator so that makes him a good man in my eyes)

The problem is researching sources and counter sources for their credentials can take an age.

In principle and based on my now long ago scientific education, vaccination certainly seems to make a lot of sense in saving lives and preventing suffering. However, the vaccination industry, like many others these days, is very big business and, as we all know, the highest priority of big business is profit. For this reason alone, especially with stuff that's injected directly into human bodies, I have no problem with them being kept under close scrutiny.

I have read another report, and I'm not an expert by any means, that claims that some of the firing patterns are consistent with a belt-fed weapon. I have no experience of what that sounds like so I can't comment further.

As someone who has fired belt-fed and magazine-fed automatic weapons, I can confidently say that belt-fed weapons weren't used in Las Vegas.  The bump-stock modification produces a rate of fire that's right up there with fully automatic weapons and that is more than capable of inflicting the carnage in Las Vegas.

Why would you bother going through the onerous process required to acquire fully automatic weapons when a cheap, legal modification gives you close to the same rate of fire?

I know exactly why you post, I didn't answer your post to debate you, to save you or change your mind. I suspect it's too late for you!

But there are kids all over the place that finds these forums and read posts, even amongst our members there are parents like MBB who have kids that might well read the forums as youngsters in the years to come. So it seems right to post to try and prevent them from being indoctrinated by nutters and weirdos!

The posts like those you link to are not funny or entertaining, the conspiracies floated to draw in a just a few extra pennies from a website are neither innocent or benign, they are bait for those incapable or ill-equipped to rationally deal with these sorts of issues, and it can have very real life long consequences for some.

What an absolute crock of self righteous BS.

Vaccines.. a pet topic.

A very simple equation for any parent that doesn't want to vaccinate their children is to move to a place where there are little or no vaccines.

I think it is dangerous and irresponsible to not vaccinate and whilst any medication of any sort can have side effects, everyone acknowledges that.. If you had 2 countries side by side and one vaccinated and the other didn't, I would not mind guessing which one has the polio/measles etc and which doesn't.

I will raise my kids in the one that doesn't please

As someone who has fired belt-fed and magazine-fed automatic weapons, I can confidently say that belt-fed weapons weren't used in Las Vegas.  The bump-stock modification produces a rate of fire that's right up there with fully automatic weapons and that is more than capable of inflicting the carnage in Las Vegas.

Why would you bother going through the onerous process required to acquire fully automatic weapons when a cheap, legal modification gives you close to the same rate of fire?

Thanks DJC. The reason that a belt-fed weapon theory was propagated was not regarding rate of fire but the duration of some of the bursts of fire, which the article claimed were too long in respect of the magazine capacity of a modified rifle. From memory, and I'd have to go back and check, the author claimed to be an ex US marine?

What an absolute crock of self righteous BS.

Again, playing the man not the ball Lods Flyboy77.

I expected better from you.

About 90 mins since you posted a reply to Lods, and you've contradicted yourself without even offering anything meaningful, relevant or valid!

Thanks DJC. The reason that a belt-fed weapon theory was propagated was not regarding rate of fire but the duration of some of the bursts of fire, which the article claimed were too long in respect of the magazine capacity of a modified rifle. From memory, and I'd have to go back and check, the author claimed to be an ex US marine?

That explains it  ;)

100 round magazines are pretty common in the USA, not that I saw any on the weapons photographed in the shooter's room.  There did seem to be several rifles with bipods and I suspect that he was changing rifles rather than changing magazines - that may knock a second or two off resuming fire when a magazine empties.

I read that they found a paper on which the shooter had calculated the trajectory from his position to the ground.  He seems to have been determined to cause as much harm as possible.  As I alluded to previously, it could have been much worse if he had used a more systematic fire plan.

Thanks DJC. The reason that a belt-fed weapon theory was propagated was not regarding rate of fire but the duration of some of the bursts of fire, which the article claimed were too long in respect of the magazine capacity of a modified rifle. From memory, and I'd have to go back and check, the author claimed to be an ex US marine?

Firstly, they showed some footage of the room, and piles of spent cartridges, there were no visible empty belts or disintegrated belt clips. You'd have one or the other if he had a belt feed weapon.

Secondly, the rate of firing was too low for belt feeds at the calibres being used, those weapons fire at a much higher rate typically 900 to 6000 Rnds per minute.

Thirdly, there were no belt feed weapons shown in the pictures of the room, and there is no evidence of any other shooter elsewhere. I gather that is what your poster is trying to imply, somebody using a fully automatic weapon from another location.

So do we know all the weapons and magazines he had, has all that info has been released?

Regardless, the weapons shown can be fitted with 100 round circular clips, at 7 rounds a second he can fire for 15s straight if the weapon survives, and while I haven't gone back and watched the unbroken footage I don't recall any bursts coming close to 15s in duration. 7 Rnds a second would be the firing rate of some of those weapons fully modified to auto, others would be slower, genuine automatic weapons fire at 15 Rnds a second or higher. You wouldn't even hear the individual shots, just a continuous burst!

I'm not sure a US$30 Bump Stock kit gives you anywhere near 7 rounds a second, 3 or 4 sustained probably, but it certainly gives you more than you can possibly fire manually out of a 100 round clip.

It's tiring firing a large clip continuously, the guy was no spring chicken, the weapons are not designed to be used that way, they recoil, kick and throw. Much of the footage seems to indicate short bursts of just a few seconds. As DJC mentions, photos of the scenes showed tripods, but even on these the weapons shown are not easily stabilised.

To change the clip I'd give him 5s under duress, I think he'd have to stop and look at what he was doing under the mechanism, and he'd be looking over his shoulder or on the video screens at the same time. You do not setup video surveillance and not look at it occasionally. But if he was cool, calm and rehearsed then as Prof E stated those taped together flat clips shown in some of the pics could be flipped in as little as 2s and typically hold about 20 to 30 Rnds each. At Bump Stock firing rates that gives him 6s to 8s of firing from a flat clip which seems to be equated by the footage I've seen on the news, which according to some has obviously been edited for nefarious purposes! ::)

We do not know what charge he was using in the ammunition, at 350m and firing down he doesn't need a big charge. If he put a full grain ammunition in a 100 round clip and fired continuously some of those weapons would have failed. I gather the fire alarms going off were probably from him dropping one of the discharged weapons on the a carpet causing a fire, or perhaps the curtains smoldering, but I didn't notice anything in the pictures I've seen. The barrels would get far hotter than the casings, but I can imagine the curtain near a broken windows being exposed to hot exhaust gases. Most of any smoke from the discharge of the weapons probably went out the window with the rounds. We do not know why two windows are smashed, although it's clear only one person was in the room as there was no other way out. Possibly a panicked attempt to clear smoke, possibly following a preferred target around the corner, perhaps somebody was firing back at him. I'm a little bit surprised being America that the face of that hotel doesn't look like a colander! :o

@ DJC/LP
A lot of information to be analysed and interpreted there and I doubt whether all relevant data is in the public domain as yet. We'll just have to wait and see whatever eventual official report is made available.

None of the big government conspiracy theories are real.
If they were Donald Trump would have tweeted about them by now ;D