Carlton Supporters Club

Just getting this set up for Sunday evening. I hope to read positive things when the game is done and dusted.

Well. That's that.

10 goals is about the difference between those two sides.

I know all the caveats, but that was hard to watch.

9 possessions and 1 Mark, 1 goal...

That's both Carlton Ruckman combined.

Vs

33 disposals, 14 marks, 7 goals.

Wow!

Well. That's that.

10 goals is about the difference between those two sides.

I know all the caveats, but that was hard to watch.

Yep we lost that comprehensively and convincingly unfortunately - plenty of homework for BB and his coaching team for sure. Same old familiar issues.

Well, thankfully we had Daisy! :o

Wright is no star but very solid. We're lucky to have him.

As lods said, our forwardline is cactus, poor Boekhorst had to play as a lead up forward, definitely not his go. At least Levi kicked straight, problem this time was that he never got it!

How many jibbed contests will it take until Everitt is dropped.

Gibbs weak as piss officially over him.

Thought Jamo beat Buddy fair and square for 2 and a half quarters in his own awkward way.

Krezuer a HUGE concern.

9 possessions and 1 Mark, 1 goal...

That's both Carlton Ruckman combined.

Vs

33 disposals, 14 marks, 7 goals.

Wow!

Kruezer was average last week vs a weak Tigers ruck unit and did nothing today IMO......Philips was ok vs the Tigers and rucked ok today but not enough around the ground....
Swans mids slayed us...too much depth...

Not sure how we can win a game with no forward line...

We have no idea at all how to quickly transition a ball into the forward 50, much like last year. It kills. You'd hate to be a forward. Look like a club at times playing back in the 60s. Compare that to how the Swans, so well drilled, transition the ball forward.

Kruezer was average last week vs a weak Tigers ruck unit and did nothing today IMO......Philips was ok vs the Tigers and rucked ok today but not enough around the ground....
Swans mids slayed us...too much depth...

Not sure how we can win a game with no forward line...

Kreuzer is always at his best when he rucks most of the day. When he has to share he's far less effective. Kreuzer rucking most of the day with Casboult 2nd rucking get the best out of both of them by far. We recruited too many ruckmen. Phillips came for nothing essentially and is young still, can't complain,  so still might be able to do something but happy for him to develop in the NBs.

Casboult been ok but he's never going to hold up the whole forward line. He's decent but not that good as a straight up forward.

The scary thing is that side is essentially our best 22, I think I'll go fishing until draft day.  :'(

The scary thing is that side is essentially our best 22, I think I'll check out until draft day.  :'(

That might change a bit as the season goes on.

The scary thing is that side is essentially our best 22, I think I'll check out until draft day.  :'(

If the Swans stay injury free, they will touch up a lot of sides this year. Especially now that Buddy has his sh^t together.

That might change a bit as the season goes on.

Not much, unless someone comes out of the blue.
Byrne should be in that side, so should Clem Smith, apart from those two I haven't spotted anyone outside today's 22 who shows anything much at all.

If the Swans stay injury free, they will touch up a lot of sides this year. Especially now that Buddy has his sh^t together.

I agree, they're a very good side, but there's a chasm between them and us.

The combination of Sinclair & Tippert was outstanding , if you can get 7 goals from your ruckman , you a long way towards winning these days . They are a different style of ruckman that we have

If the Swans stay injury free, they will touch up a lot of sides this year. Especially now that Buddy has his sh^t together.

Buddy is just a small part of it, Tippett is quickly becoming their most valuable player and they have Sinclair capable of playing a KPF role as backup.

They have a midfield division like no other, the Dawks will have to be at their bastardry best to stop this Sydney train from rolling right over the top of their parade!

I'd persist with Charlie and give Andrejs "I hear them coming" the flick.  Time to give Foster or Jaksch a run at FF.

So I saw bugger all of the game, abit of the 3rd and most of the last but the damage was done. I started listening to the radio whilst in the car in the 2nd qtr and we were 12 odd points down. BB kicked a behind (grazed the post), the two more behinds from very gettable positions by Cripps and Curnow I think. Sydney answered by kicking 3 goals and blew the lead out to close to 40. This was in a 10 odd min period and it was game over for mine.

Two other things I noted:
1. Sadly for Simmo the end is nigh, turn overs, poor positioning, man getting off him. Been poor late last year and during the PS. Signs are not good for mine.
2. 2E must be taken out of defence as he is clueless. Play him in the midfield, wing or HF but no where in defence, he is a liability.

Not much, unless someone comes out of the blue.
Byrne should be in that side, so should Clem Smith, apart from those two I haven't spotted anyone outside today's 22 who shows anything much at all.

Let's hope McKay adds to this side when he is back

If the Swans stay injury free, they will touch up a lot of sides this year. Especially now that Buddy has his sh^t together.

I agree, they're a very good side, but there's a chasm between them and us.

I agree, they're a very good side, but there's a chasm between them and us.

Yes, that's true, but not every team we play will be as good as Sydney.

The scary thing is that side is essentially our best 22, I think I'll go fishing until draft day.  :'(

I'm interested in tracking the progress of Lachie Plowman. I think he might be able to add something if his body holds up.

I'd persist with Charlie and give Andrejs "I hear them coming" the flick.  Time to give Foster or Jaksch a run at FF.

Thats the other thing, was thinking the same. Foster in for AE, time to give him a crack, AE offering zilch ATM.

Agreed 100% GITC, Touhy is horrid as a small defender and must be played higher up the ground.  Has no idea re positioning or spoiling a ball above his eyes.  Stick him on a wing and let him chase the ball, not worry about postioning etc.

I'm interested in tracking the progress of Lachie Plowman. I think he might be able to add something if his body holds up.

If he's as good as some think he is he and Weitering should be the foundation of our future defence. Weitering continues to impress - his maturity and coolness is phenomenal. Could he be our new "Ice Man" (as Doully used to be called, among other things).

What would be wrong with adding 2E on a forward flank, he can kick a goal might be the player we need who can add 2-3 in some games?

What would be wrong with adding 2E on a forward flank, he can kick a goal might be the player we need who can add 2-3 in some games?

See above

Buddy is just a small part of it, Tippett is quickly becoming their most valuable player and they have Sinclair capable of playing a KPF role as backup.

They have a midfield division like no other, the Dawks will have to be at their bastardry best to stop this Sydney train from rolling right over the top of their parade!

Tippett has been the world's most expensive spud for ages. Has started very well this year however.

Not much, unless someone comes out of the blue.
Byrne should be in that side, so should Clem Smith, apart from those two I haven't spotted anyone outside today's 22 who shows anything much at all.

Plowman and Sumner played VFL on the weekend and weren't bad. Both top 10 picks but have to get them fit. Jaksch will probably come in too after some more match practice. Like you said, Byrne should be in the side.

Still, it's not even that, it's the lack of ability to transition the ball properly into out forward 50. We always seems slow, out of position and move it in there with great difficulty. Compare that to the Swans, who were well-drilled, slick and quick transitioning. Until we get that right it won't matter who we pcik.

The ball movement last week was pretty slick at times. Swans were just too good at setting up.

And how long do we have to watch the opposition midfield sharking our taps ? This has been occurring for ages.

I saw some snippets of the game (the Telstra app is useless) and listened to a fair bit of the commentary.

The positives I took out of the game are:
1. Bolton refused to go defensive and didn't allow any of our players to have an easy time.  He will have learnt more about who is capable from that game than he did in the last 6 months.
2.  We didn't give up.  Even though we were being smashed by a very good team, players tried their hardest right to the end.

I saw some snippets of the game (the Telstra app is useless) and listened to a fair bit of the commentary.

The positives I took out of the game are:
1. Bolton refused to go defensive and didn't allow any of our players to have an easy time.  He will have learnt more about who is capable from that game than he did in the last 6 months.
2.  We didn't give up.  Even though we were being smashed by a very good team, players tried their hardest right to the end.

The usual suspects did pick and choose way too much for my liking.

The ball movement last week was pretty slick at times. Swans were just too good at setting up.

And how long do we have to watch the opposition midfield sharking our taps ? This has been occurring for ages.

Ball movement is helped by having something to kick to.....a couple of times casboult led we did hit him up but when you have nothing else
its hard to develop any system....and then you revert to old bad habits ie bomb it long to no one...

The usual suspects did pick and choose way too much for my liking.

Gibbs? Everitt?

Who else? Name and shame!

Your right hard to develop a system when we done really have an established forward to work towards. We have bits & pieces players but no "full time" forwards , it's not Casboult unfortunately , so we are missing cattle still

Gibbs? Everitt?

Who else? Name and shame!

They were the main two offenders, but that's already too many.

Swans didn't have it all their own way in the first half.

Hit the post a few times we could have easily been a goal or two  down at half time instead of 38.

We then only got beaten by a goal in the third.

Last was a struggle but they are a battle hardened team full of stars.

Not to bad .

Ball movement is helped by having something to kick to.....a couple of times casboult led we did hit him up but when you have nothing else
its hard to develop any system....and then you revert to old bad habits ie bomb it long to no one...

True enough, although tonight we reverted to kicking backwards again, which is worse.

The ball movement last week was pretty slick at times. Swans were just too good at setting up.

And how long do we have to watch the opposition midfield sharking our taps ? This has been occurring for ages.

That slickness has been a rarity the last couple of years though.

I'd play Jones ahead of Everitt next week........just sick of Everitt coasting along providing no effort or pressure unless its obvious he has to contest...

That slickness has been a rarity the last couple of years though.

Oh I agree. What I saw last week makes what I saw this week even more dispiriting. Clearly we don't play in a vacuum, and credit has to be given to the Swans, who are a class above us in every respect (and a class above several other teams too). 

Oh I agree. What I saw last week makes what I saw this week even more dispiriting. Clearly we don't play in a vacuum, and credit has to be given to the Swans, who are a class above us in every respect (and a class above several other teams too).

Agree....Swans have the equipment to win the GF if they can make it....Buddy back gives them the flair they need, they smacked us like most would expect but we battled on and players like Weitering and C. Curnow would learn plenty and  showed some ability....might have got ugly without the two ex Crows lads who have been very good...

Agree....Swans have the equipment to win the GF if they can make it....Buddy back gives them the flair they need, they smacked us like most would expect but we battled on and players like Weitering and C. Curnow would learn plenty and  showed some ability....might have got ugly without the two ex Crows lads who have been very good...

Yes. Kerro and Wright definitely among the votes for mine. The Doc was very good as well.

Papley was a good pick up.  Still, it's probably easier when you come into a very strong and hard midfield.

The Swans had obviously put a lot of work into nullifying Cripps.  He will have to work on his bag of tricks to prevent other sides shutting him down.

I'd play Jones ahead of Everitt next week........just sick of Everitt coasting along providing no effort or pressure unless its obvious he has to contest...

We're on the same page, EB1. Like many I saw Everitt take short steps and fail to put his body on the line on more than one occasion this evening... not only does that betray the team ethic but it can only demoralise team mates. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when the heat is on Everitt goes missing. He's a kind of luxury player, the bloke who you'd park up forward when you've got 21 other blokes who are fair dinkum.

We've now got the worst ever CFC forward line and probably the worst forward line in the AFL at present, particularly in relation to tall forwards. Personally, I'd replace Everitt up forward with White and have Byrne take White's place down back.

As unpopular as this opinion is, Meat is not a key forward.

Swans didn't have it all their own way in the first half.

Hit the post a few times we could have easily been a goal or two  down at half time instead of 38.

We then only got beaten by a goal in the third.

Last was a struggle but they are a battle hardened team full of stars.

Not to bad .

I will be sleeping a lot better than Melbourne and Richmond supporters tonight.

Skill difference between the teams is noticeable but not as much as I thought after just watching the game.
Yeah it was a 10 goal difference but we skillfully hit the post 4 or 5 times and kicked it straight to them MANY times. Tidy just that part of the game up we probably wouldve still lost but not by much,
Kerridge, Bl**dy Kerridge, the new young Carazzo. Our new turn over king, yes he gets the ball but he can't kick. His decision making is WOEFUL.
Simmo must have had his wrong contacts in today.
TOOOO many times they had an overlap and way too many free players along the wing and in their forward line. It looked like our players were playing off them filling a gap but it allowed them way too easy ball movement. NEED TO FIX THIS. What happened to man on man when the oppo has the ball.

We must stop kicking to our forwards HEADS and kick it to advantage. We did it a few times and when Cas came charging out in the last and marked it I had flashbacks of Fev. We can do it.

I did like the fact that when one player was pushed or man handled off the ball another two came in to protect. The melee at half time was good to see.

We get it in our forward 50 a zillion times for a few shots on goal that we don't convert, THIS must have a sapping effect on ALL players.

Some green shoots...how GOOD is that 2 gamer kid. Crikey is he really that good?
Charlie will be heaps better for the run and I loved how BB put the two young'uns in the forward line together.

Oh well, we didn't get the chocolates tonight but I saw some glimpses of what Charlie Curnow could be for us one day. We could have got a lot closer but for some poor kicking at and around the goals. Swans were just too good in close and they gave it off much more cleanly. Some poor umpiring decisions and non-decisions let the Swans off the hook in the second.

Cripps seemed to lack a bit of energy... well down on his standard and only got going in the 2nd half. Murphy also quiet.  Not a lot of impact from our midfielders.

Swans had 60 more possessions, 25 more inside 50's and smashed us in the centre clearances...  just didn't get our hands on it enough. We had some patches where we were competitive, but  Sydney are bloody impressive.

It was good to see Weitering for the first time, just looks like a really good, smart footballer, his kicking really stood out.  Curnow did OK for his first game, settled as the game went on. 

Papley was a good pick up.  Still, it's probably easier when you come into a very strong and hard midfield.

The Swans had obviously put a lot of work into nullifying Cripps.  He will have to work on his bag of tricks to prevent other sides shutting him down.

It was inevitable that someone would do their homework: he was too good last year to ignore. And he will get better, even if he won't get a lot quicker.

However, of all the things we have done to alter our game plan, the least effective thing appears to be our midfield. We set up in a way that doesn't close other teams down but is ultra attacking. Now that works fine if your ruckmen get a lot of taps and direct them to quality mids. It doesn't work when we lose the taps, or can't direct them.
But, one thing in its favour, it is very direct when we actually get the clearance.

Our ruck division is REALLY in need of some work.
Kreuzer has been ordinary to poor. He has barely taken a mark in any of the games so far. He hasn't been a dominating presence in the middle and he has not done well in the taps. His commitment and 2nd efforts are 2nd to none, but it is the marking around the ground and the getting of good taps that makes a champion ruckman.
Phillips is promising. He needs to develop his body a bit more yet, but he can take a mark. He needs to work on his positioning, especially around the ground. His leap in the middle is impressive. He can't have had a good night tonight, but it will be a couple of years before he is at his best.
Gorringe is a speculative pick: he has a heap of potential, but has questions about his intensity and the position he will eventually play. If we get anything out of him, then we have done well.
Korchek is another who is some way off but who has the potential to be impressive. He has played maybe 2 games of footy so far and been bad. But it will take a couple of years before he is ready.
Wood: well, we already know his strengths and weaknesses. I think he will get games this year as the other go up and down. H has already done more and better than I expected, but he is just not a premiership ruckman (except possibly for the Baby Blues).
We also have Casboult and Rowe who can do some ruck work and Aurecchio (spelling is probably wrong - I apologize) around the edges. I am not expecting big things from him, but he is better than many of the failed ruckmen we have trialled this century.

Until we find or develop a top class ruckman we are not to succeed. Have a look at the effect a guy like NicNat or Goldstein has on a team and you see our weakness. Even Hawthorn's ruck, relative no names as they are, do enough to nullify their 'betters' and they tap the ball to exactly where their mids are waiting for it. Notice how more effective they were today with Ceglar in: he isn't a superstar, but he does what he needs to do.

We're on the same page, EB1. Like many I saw Everitt take short steps and fail to put his body on the line on more than one occasion this evening... not only does that betray the team ethic but it can only demoralise team mates. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when the heat is on Everitt goes missing. He's a kind of luxury player, the bloke who you'd park up forward when you've got 21 other blokes who are fair dinkum.

We've now got the worst ever CFC forward line and probably the worst forward line in the AFL at present, particularly in relation to tall forwards. Personally, I'd replace Everitt up forward with White and have Byrne take White's place down back.

As unpopular as this opinion is, Meat is not a key forward.

Like I said, Casboult''s a forward/ruck, not necessarily a key forward per se. There you get the best out of him and what got the attention of other clubs last year. Work for me as the rest of our rucks, outside of Kreuzer of course, aren't real good.

I'd replace Everitt with Jaksch. Walker will come back in too. After the VFL yesterday look forward to Plowman and Sumner getting fit too, as well as Byrne coming in.

Was happy to give Everitt a go this week after a very good year last year but he's way off so far this year. let him find form in the twos. He kicked 31 goals last year so hopefully he can go back to the NBs and fins that form. Problem is, depsite Henderson's putrid form last year, Casboult and Everitt were 2nd and 3rd bananas up forward, which suited them. This year they are 1st and 2nd, which is alot more difficult for them. Casboult is at least taking marks and getting shots at goal but finding it tougher than last year. Everitt looks lost.

I'm done with Everitt.  Had 7 possessions for the game and at no point put in an effort.  When most of the blokes rate trying, his work rate is a disgrace.  Needs to be sent to the Magoos for an extended period.  And if he cracks the sads he can leave.  No loss.

Sydney's ball movement was superb.  Even when we put pressure on, their ability to hit a target was awesome.  All we did was turn the ball over, even when there was no pressure.  I like Nicky G, but hard to defend when he slaughtered us more than once.  He wasn't on his own though.  Simmo, Gibbs etc.

Like Matt Wright's game and Kerro is proving to be a great pickup.  Best game by Dale Thomas in a Blues jumper, a guy who never gave up.  Gibbs remains soft as jelly.

Rowe is OK if it's one on one, but there were times when the ball was in transition when he looked lost.  As a result there were too many times when one of our smells had to match up on a tall.

Charlie C was all at sea for the first half, but really worked into the game in the second half.  Good on him.  Definitely play him next week.

It was hard to watch at times.  The skills errors murdered us.  But, I trust BB.

Anyway, I'd drop AE and Lamb and replace them with Walker (who I assume will be back) and Buckley.  Personally I'd also replace White with Byrne.  White wasn't awful, but he's not the future for this club.

Listened to the third quarter on the way home from a weekend market and then watched the last at home.

Wasn't expecting a win and didn't get one, this could of been a massive smacking had they just thrown in the towel but what I saw was a team still trying when they were completely outclassed and seemingly out on their legs.

Last week, the Swans made the Pies look like a VFL team whacking them by 80-points, they only squeaked past us by 60 today, there's something to be proud of.

Another thing dawned on me today, I rec'd a text to tell me that Casboult had marked and goaled within the first few minutes of the match. I then saw Casboult mark strongly and then kick truly in the last when the result of the game was beyond doubt.

We all know that Casboult has some serious issues with his kicking technique but the added issue for him is between his ears. Both goals he kicked were when there was no pressure on him, he didn't have to think too much and it all happened. Can this be fixed ?? I honestly don't know but fear that it can't.

There is a very very simple fix for SpecialK's poor ruck form.

Carlton, please stop trying to make him into a forward! ;)

Carlton, please stop trying to fix the bad things, by breaking the good things! :o

Listened to the third quarter on the way home from a weekend market and then watched the last at home.

Wasn't expecting a win and didn't get one, this could of been a massive smacking had they just thrown in the towel but what I saw was a team still trying when they were completely outclassed and seemingly out on their legs.

Last week, the Swans made the Pies look like a VFL team whacking them by 80-points, they only squeaked past us by 60 today, there's something to be proud of.

Another thing dawned on me today, I rec'd a text to tell me that Casboult had marked and goaled within the first few minutes of the match. I then saw Casboult mark strongly and then kick truly in the last when the result of the game was beyond doubt.

We all know that Casboult has some serious issues with his kicking technique but the added issue for him is between his ears. Both goals he kicked were when there was no pressure on him, he didn't have to think too much and it all happened. Can this be fixed ?? I honestly don't know but fear that it can't.

Actually, on that last bit, an old Dandenong Stingrays teammate said at u/18 level he had the same bad ball drop but rarely missed. It was then suggested that much of the problem was between the ears.

Best game by Dale Thomas in a Blues jumper, a guy who never gave up.

26 disposals and 8 tackles, solid. needs to bring that every week and some. Would really like to see him hit the scoreboard.

Has their ever been a ruck duo who had so much impact on the game and their opposing ruck duo so little? Friggin useless the pair of them.

Nice occasion for Tuohy to play his worst ever game and that skirmish which he needlessly and single-handedly started at half time was beyond ridiculous. Buddy did next to nothing and Tuohy's overreaction was embarrassing.

Everitt....no thanks, not for me, Lamb was disappointing and as others have said, really thankful for the 2 ex-Crows.

Yep, 10 goals is adout size of the gulf between us right now, but really happy we didn't totally capitulate, when we could've easily done so.

*sigh*.....today simply confirmed that it's gonna be one long year, I was hoping that wasn't gonna be the after last week.....not anymore.

Don't forget we played a team that has been around the mark for a few seasons, still going very strong, and look like flag favorites at the moment. We won't play a better team this year.

What I want to see for the entire season is real 4 quarter efforts, from everyone, not from 50% of the team, not from 90% of the team, from everyone. And no dropping heads when things aren't going well, and no giving up. And no bitching and sniping between team mates.

Has our culture, the fibre of the CFC been so eroded by consistent failure over the past 15 years that we now find positives in a 10 goal loss!!!

Have we supporters become so accustomed to failure that we are placated by, appeased by and even moderately happy with 'honourable losses'? Because that's what's occurring.

Today we lost by 10 goals and that’s absolutely unacceptable.

Our forwards without the help of our mids, were limp – please, no more excuses about delivery. Our tall forwards are limp.

Up against an A team today. I thought we did OK, a 60 pt loss is better than an 80 pt loss right. Fabulous lesson for the youngsters early in the season, should give them the feel for what it takes to mix it with genuine contenders. Sydney's youngsters were as impressive as their seasoned stars.

I liked what I saw of Daisy's return. Once he warmed up he didn't say die. Loved him out marking Buddy. If he can be consistent and stay on the park, he'll fuel the development of the baby blues. Cripps got the attention we expected, shame he didn't have more support in the middle, or from the ruck for that matter. Ruck is a real issue, although I think Phillips might be OK in time if he can bulk up. In the meantime????

It was a tough gig in defense today but I thought Rowe, Doc, and Whiite did OK. Jamo looked cooked and it was one of those rarities when Simmo was behind the eight ball.  Weitering will be a superstar.

Good for young Charlie kicking a nice goal on debut. He'll benefit from the quality he was amongst and can only improve. Ed was his consistent self, unlike too many of his senior counterparts. I thought Wright and Kerridge held their own, for the most part. Levi's success in front of goals will hopefully build his confidence.

Although our 100gamer didn't star, I loved the 'what the hell' he gave Buddy. Stirred up a great little passion builder before the break.

We've got a long way to go - but we know that. It'll take time and some new faces. We had a crack today and I saw some green shoots.
Bring in the likes of Plowman, some luck with injury and we'll see some wins
 ;D Go Blues

Has our culture, the fibre of the CFC been so eroded by consistent failure over the past 15 years that we now find positives in a 10 goal loss!!!

Have we supporters become so accustomed to failure that we are placated by, appeased by and even moderately happy with 'honourable losses'? Because that's what's occurring.

Today we lost by 10 goals and that’s absolutely unacceptable.

Our forwards without the help of our mids, were limp – please, no more excuses about delivery. Our tall forwards are limp.

The unless you have a secret way to undo the mess of Malthouse in a way that circumvents the draft, the cap and trading we will be subject to these types of losses for a while.

...and if we are going to lose we need to find the green shoots BB talks about. Today there was some, not many.

Has our culture, the fibre of the CFC been so eroded by consistent failure over the past 15 years that we now find positives in a 10 goal loss!!!

Have we supporters become so accustomed to failure that we are placated by, appeased by and even moderately happy with 'honourable losses'? Because that's what's occurring.

Today we lost by 10 goals and that’s absolutely unacceptable.

Our forwards without the help of our mids, were limp – please, no more excuses about delivery. Our tall forwards are limp.

Not acceptable...but not able to be fixed until we go to the draft/ trade period again.
We only have one forward who is a guaranteed selection each week.
He's hit and miss at best with his kicking and offers very little else but a strong mark.

Nope
Not acceptable...but not able to be fixed until we go to the draft/ trade period again.
We only have one forward who is a guaranteed selection each week.
He's hit and miss at best with his kicking and offers very little else but a strong mark.

It's definitely grit the teeth days for a while yet! My main hope is that the players' morale does not get undermined by win-deprivation while we endure the rebuild process. We are fighting it out atm but how long can we sustain that if we can't get a few uplifting wins.

9 possessions and 1 Mark, 1 goal...

That's both Carlton Ruckman combined.

Vs

33 disposals, 14 marks, 7 goals.

Wow!

About $1.3 mill difference too. ;)

I'd play Jones ahead of Everitt next week........just sick of Everitt coasting along providing no effort or pressure unless its obvious he has to contest...

I see him jib the obvious ones as well.

However, of all the things we have done to alter our game plan, the least effective thing appears to be our midfield. We set up in a way that doesn't close other teams down but is ultra attacking. Now that works fine if your ruckmen get a lot of taps and direct them to quality mids. It doesn't work when we lose the taps, or can't direct them.

I'll tell you what the problem is. Gibbs and Murphy are simply not desperate enough at the centre bounce, the amount of times they get their hands on the ball and just let it go when pressured. There was one centre bounce when it was two goals all (2.0.12 - 2.1.13), first Gibbs got his hands on the ball and fumbled when he heard the footsteps, next thing he's lost it. Ball bounces to Murph, he picks it up, gets body contact from the side and drops it flinging himself on the ground looking for a free. Just pathetic and of course Sydney sweep the ball away and score. Now I challenge anyone on here to go back and look at that and tell me that is acceptable, they did exactly the same thing last week.

We simply cannot go forward with such a soft player (Gibbs) being around the ball so much and a player like Murphy who is a little harder but let's face it picks and chooses when to go. These two blokes are two of the highest paid at the club and arte supposed to lead by example, let's cut them loose before they halt this club's development any further. They will just look to piggy back on Cripps for a free ride, just like they did Judd. Quite simply, they are the AFL version of remoras.

We thought we had weeded out the players with no heart, well unfortunately there are two or three left, the two above being exactly that. I would look to trade both at year's end.

I'll tell you what the problem is. Gibbs and Murphy are simply not desperate enough at the centre bounce, the amount of times they get their hands on the ball and just let it go when pressured. There was one centre bounce when it was two goals all (2.0.12 - 2.1.13), first Gibbs got his hands on the ball and fumbled when he heard the footsteps, next thing he's lost it. Ball bounces to Murph, he picks it up, gets body contact from the side and drops it flinging himself on the ground looking for a free. Just pathetic and of course Sydney sweep the ball away and score. Now I challenge anyone on here to go back and look at that and tell me that is acceptable, they did exactly the same thing last week.

We simply cannot go forward with such a soft player (Gibbs) being around the ball so much and a player like Murphy who is a little harder but let's face it picks and chooses when to go. These two blokes are two of the highest paid at the club and arte supposed to lead by example, let's cut them loose before they halt this club's development any further. They will just look to piggy back on Cripps for a free ride, just like they did Judd. Quite simply, they are the AFL version of remoras.

We thought we had weeded out the players with no heart, well unfortunately there are two or three left, the two above being exactly that. I would look to trade both at year's end.

Unfortunately we can't get rid of everyone out all at once. We have about 10 soft players still on our list. It will take another 3-4 drafts. Softies will be phased out over time. We have to be patient.

Unfortunately we can't get rid of everyone out all at once. We have about 10 soft players still on our list. It will take another 3-4 drafts. Softies will be phased out over time. We have to be patient.

Spot on. There won't be many of the original team left when BB and SOS have finished!

Unfortunately we can't get rid of everyone out all at once. We have about 10 soft players still on our list. It will take another 3-4 drafts. Softies will be phased out over time. We have to be patient.

But these two especially have currency, they are selfish and soft and are in everything we do. Seriously we cannot have them taking a free ride on poor Crippa again like they did yesterday, also Cripps had 2-3 blokes on him at every stoppage, surely Murphy and Gibbs should benefit from this? BS. Gibbs is worse than Murphy so if we had to choose one it must be him.

About $1.3 mill difference too. ;)

People forget how big the Tippett deal is because it has since been overshadowed by Buddies deal.

But I find it ironic how many people on here complain about the ruck division, many of the same people basically spent years wanted our ruck division cut back because we had too many rucks who couldn't play as forwards. Well bad news people, that is normal as rucks at best are only part time forwards. So they the whiners got what they asked for and now our club that had the dominant ruck division just 5 years back has a thread bare remnant patched up and being held together by a half forward / half ruck.

As a result a bloke like Cripps is mostly wasted winning the contested footy back because the opposition are getting first use of the ball time and time again. Then the whiners surface again crying loudly that we have made Cripps the new Judd, what the feck are the whiners blind to cause and effect?

Thankfully these nuffies are no longer in charge and the club has become less reactive, because otherwise it would be chaos. But it's going to take at least 5 years to fix what the club deliberately broke!

I thought Murph was really good yday before being pushed out or fading out of the game - Gibbs disappointed me yday but he was interviewed after the game on ABC and spoke really well - he's obviously one of the leaders at the club but I didn't like his game yday at all.

Murph can only do so much on his own and I totally disagree with him being soft or picking and choosing when he goes - very harsh imo.

Murph can only do so much on his own and I totally disagree with him being soft or picking and choosing when he goes - very harsh imo.

Not really, look at how Cripps hunts the ball even with two blokes hanging off him. That's how Murphy should be attacking the ball and anything less is just not good enough, for a 19 year old to be showing the captain the way is just wrong. Then add to that that Murphy could not even take advantage of the fact that Cripps had two hanging on to him. gibbs is worse I'll give you that, neither of them are worth the money they are on/ They are the highest paid players by default.

Cripps himself was extremely disappointing yesterday.

Our team did not play well yesterday. That was the disappointing thing. Forget all the green shoot etc. we could not have played much worse.

Mids played really really pooly. All of them. Kreuze and Gibbs had absolute shockers.

Cripps himself was extremely disappointing yesterday.

Had two blokes hanging on to him at every stoppage. He was sacrificed, the supposed senior players at the club could not take advantage of it.

Murph also does not have the size of Cripps. Murph tries his guts out but there's only so much he can do and he did more yday than Cripps did and I don't believe that Murph was left on his own, he was just as tagged as Cripps was

Anyway i was at the game yday the first quarter was great the kicking posters killed some of our momentum and if you're worried and wringing your hands about the game yday and the year ahead you haven't been paying attention. We are rebuilding from
Ground up - there will be many more game results like yday but at least so far we've seen minimal going backwards, and some real passion energy and comraderie for the first time in at least a few years. I didn't miss Yaz Hendo or Waite yday, this is definitely a new team and there are new beginnings and it's going to take some Time For the team to learn how to play together and it'll only strengthen over time.

We simply cannot go forward with such a soft player (Gibbs) being around the ball so much and a player like Murphy who is a little harder but let's face it picks and chooses when to go. These two blokes are two of the highest paid at the club and arte supposed to lead by example, let's cut them loose before they halt this club's development any further. They will just look to piggy back on Cripps for a free ride, just like they did Judd. Quite simply, they are the AFL version of remoras.

We thought we had weeded out the players with no heart, well unfortunately there are two or three left, the two above being exactly that. I would look to trade both at year's end.

Could not agree more. I am so sick and tired of watching Gibbs either squibbing contact, fumbling at crucial moments or turning the ball over at critical stages causing a huge momentum shift.

He has to be the most over rated player I have ever seen. I constantly hear how skillful and talented Gibbs is and I keep thinking, are these people actually watching the game? Are they seeing what I'm seeing? Jesus outside of Simpson, Gibbs is the biggest turnover merchant at the club.

We as a club would do well to part ways with both Murphy and Gibbs at the end of the year. Get players in who will consider it a privilege to play for the CFC, rather than a right. These guys prance around like they are God's gift to football, yet they've no right to call themselves footballers let alone prance. Two of the worst number one picks you will ever hope to see. The less said about Kruezer the better, but he at least tries 100% of the time.

Murph also does not have the size of Cripps. Murph tries his guts out but there's only so much he can do and he did more yday than Cripps did and I don't believe that Murph was left on his own, he was just as tagged as Cripps was

Cripps was gang tackled by 2 or 3 Swans at every ball up, Murphy didn't get anywhere near that attention. My biggest concern for Murphy is he can't stick a tackle and gets brushed aside like a child when he's playing against the big boys.

Had two blokes hanging on to him at every stoppage. He was sacrificed, the supposed senior players at the club could not take advantage of it.

That is just not true. Stood in the wrong spots all game. All of our mids did. Dominated the hitouts but made the rucks attempt to back hand the ball over and between Sydney players.

Ridiculous.

Happened so consistently it had to be the coaches fault.

If that js the limit of boltons tactical awareness we're in trouble because that was moronic.

I was happier with Gibbs' efforts in the second half but it's  clear the Swans mids are an awesome running and skilled unit.

I don't think he's any chance to be traded.

At stoppages Gibbs kicks off a step whereas the Swans players dish off or break away. Gibbs came to pre-season overweight. Next season his body shape needs to be completely different if he wants to be a running mid. Right now he's an inside mid shape.

If he doesn't become the running player then he's going to have to work of the half back line again like he did under Ratten.

I'll cut Murph some slack as he's outnumbered .

In terms of running power we got poleaxed. Rucks got smashed and the swans transitioned too easily from the backline, which means some players were not doing their jobs.

It's two games in, so it's a bit early to tell...but the test will be which of our senior players are better in 2016 than they were in 2015...

After 2 games I'm struggling to find any.

Boekhorst maybe?

You can make an argument for Thomas and Graham but it's a pretty thin one coming off injury riddled seasons.

It's two games in, so it's a bit early to tell...but the test will be which of our senior players are better in 2016 than they were in 2015...

After 2 games I'm struggling to find any.

Boekhorst maybe?

You can make an argument for Thomas and Graham but it's a pretty thin one coming off injury riddled seasons.

Thought Thomas at least gave effort and worked himself into the game. Maybe its because he's been out so long that he's running into problems.

Just need more from him.

Had to pull out last minute  (insert mum joke here) so saw none if the game , looks like a good outing by Thomas. Was this his best game for us?

Had to pull out last minute  (insert mum joke here) so saw none if the game , looks like a good outing by Thomas. Was this his best game for us?

Best half , second half.

Murph isn't really designed to be captain, nor is he designed to be an inside mid. His best year was 2011, when he played outside receiver. This allows the team to take full advantage of his skills, and minimizes any adverse impacts caused by his physical limitations.

I think most of us agree with this PaulP , but is an unfortunate position we are short of the right player mix , unfortunate to have lost Bell would compliment our current crop well.

I think most of us agree with this PaulP , but is an unfortunate position we are short of the right player mix , unfortunate to have lost Bell would compliment our current crop well.

Bell?

He's playing for Brisbane doing the same dumb crap he did with us.

Could not agree more. I am so sick and tired of watching Gibbs either squibbing contact, fumbling at crucial moments or turning the ball over at critical stages causing a huge momentum shift.

He has to be the most over rated player I have ever seen. I constantly hear how skillful and talented Gibbs is and I keep thinking, are these people actually watching the game? Are they seeing what I'm seeing? Jesus outside of Simpson, Gibbs is the biggest turnover merchant at the club.

We as a club would do well to part ways with both Murphy and Gibbs at the end of the year. Get players in who will consider it a privilege to play for the CFC, rather than a right. These guys prance around like they are God's gift to football, yet they've no right to call themselves footballers let alone prance. Two of the worst number one picks you will ever hope to see. The less said about Kruezer the better, but he at least tries 100% of the time.

I think you need to watch Kerridge a bit closer ;)

Murph isn't really designed to be captain, nor is he designed to be an inside mid. His best year was 2011, when he played outside receiver. This allows the team to take full advantage of his skills, and minimizes any adverse impacts caused by his physical limitations.

Even on the outside, unless he's got plenty of time his skills are simply not that good. Give me Graham with ball in hand and time on his side any day over Murphy.

Re 2011. I made comment after the Richmond game where we won by 100 odd points that Murphy was almost Judd-like out there in the way he was attacking the ball. None of that fromm him yesterday, happy to let Cripps do all the work and see what cheapies he could pick up. And yes all the usual suspects who believe if you have some sort of skill you don't need to win your own ball will be on here shouting me down but fork it, I've had enough. Gibbs and murphy are CLEARLY our two biggest concerns at the club. Every other club has a couple of champions, we have these two.

Far too much fumbling yesterday.....absolutely killed us......and just like last week, if Sydney ever fumbled (which was rare) we didn't punish them.

Those damn posters hurt us too......

Far too much fumbling yesterday.....absolutely killed us......and just like last week, if Sydney ever fumbled (which was rare) we didn't punish them.

Those damn posters hurt us too......

This is the my number 1 sign of if the player can play.

One grab players look 100x quicker. Judd bang one grab, Carrots was also a great one grab player. Cripps is as well.

So many times we had hands on it, fumbled and bang Sydney took it away.

Curnow and Weitering look like one grab players. Compare that to the easy mark Jamo dropped coming out of defence.

Bell?

He's playing for Brisbane doing the same dumb crap he did with us.

Good Call, he has gone North and still making dumb decisions.

Re; Thomas... Took me until the second quarter to actually remember he was playing, but his second half was super, he used his body in the contest, provided options and outmarked Buddy. Has clean hands. those terrible little dinky up and under kicks were horrid though and will injure someone, but happy to give him a pass mark for sure and agree it was his best half for the blues (the bar was set low though).

Speaking of which, why are we persisting with this slow loopy handballs, swans just closed and closed as soon as it had a bit of air, which was a lot.

Daisy was a pass for sure, as was my mate Simon White. It's always the way with White, when the side plays badly he generally looks solid but when we play well he is exposed.

I listened to coverage of the second half on ABC radio and the commentators made the point that our ball movement from the midfield into the forward 50 was very poor.

Any comments?

Not really, look at how Cripps hunts the ball even with two blokes hanging off him. That's how Murphy should be attacking the ball and anything less is just not good enough, for a 19 year old to be showing the captain the way is just wrong. Then add to that that Murphy could not even take advantage of the fact that Cripps had two hanging on to him. gibbs is worse I'll give you that, neither of them are worth the money they are on/ They are the highest paid players by default.

Been saying it for years.
They watched Nick Stevens too much

I love the passion about losing and it being unacceptable, but this is where we are at.

We can all whinge and compain about it not being good enough but the reality is, the boys gave it a red hot go, and you could see us trying to do stuff, but the Swans just being too quick to get into position to nullify it, and we were not clean enough to work our way through it, and hit the scoreboard.

The second quarter yesterday, we had the opportunities to kick a couple of goals, they went begging, and then we gifted a couple to the Swans instead which really blew it out.

We sometimes are guilty of playing some selfish football, as well as ignoring our teamates when they are working hard for each other.

The Swans were good yesterday.  They capitilised when they got the chance, and punished us whenever they could.  We had a few good spots, a few flat spots, and some varying efforts.  Its going to happen.  Its all about the kids now for us though.  We can't afford to get swept up in the emotion about our senior players anymore, because they are all actually slowing down and many of them wont be there in a couple of years. 

I listened to coverage of the second half on ABC radio and the commentators made the point that our ball movement from the midfield into the forward 50 was very poor.

Any comments?

Agree. Either we forgot what we did well last week, or the Swans are just a better drilled, more talented and harder working unit than the Tiges. Actually, that goes without saying.

Even on the outside, unless he's got plenty of time his skills are simply not that good. Give me Graham with ball in hand and time on his side any day over Murphy.

Re 2011. I made comment after the Richmond game where we won by 100 odd points that Murphy was almost Judd-like out there in the way he was attacking the ball. None of that fromm him yesterday, happy to let Cripps do all the work and see what cheapies he could pick up. And yes all the usual suspects who believe if you have some sort of skill you don't need to win your own ball will be on here shouting me down but fork it, I've had enough. Gibbs and murphy are CLEARLY our two biggest concerns at the club. Every other club has a couple of champions, we have these two.

I don't know if Murph will again reach those dizzying 2011 heights. I don't know if the succession of shoulder injuries, cheekbone injuries, concussions etc. have weakened his resolve. In my view he always has a real crack, and whilst he's not as gung ho as seasons past, I still think he tries. He would be of much more use to the team if he was moved out a little from the stoppages.

Sometimes you can only play as good as the opposition lets you. Sydney in the mid-field were awesome. They smashed us and didn't let up. Unlike some on this site, I think Gibbs was ok, it was just he along with everyone else was overwhelmed by superior forces. I actually get a bit sick of the Gibbs bashing and general negativity but everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I sometimes think that supporters often forget the players are human. I thought Murphy, who had a good game last week, didn't come up as well this week because of his lack of preparation pre-season, which is normal. I also think that Thomas was dealing with his demons in the first half. He looked like a player who was trying to try but didn't know how to commit. I think half way through the third quarter he just decided to go. Hopefully he can continue on.
The positives were that Weitering was good again, C Curnow, while finding the pace early hard to adjust to, finished well, and while there were times I thought we were going to be really smashed, our players never gave up, which is something new. I also thought that Jamison had the better of Buddy. He got one goal from a soft 50 meter penalty, one from a soft free kick, one from a shocking turnover, and one form good play down field that Jammo couldn't stop.
The negatives were our disposals. I think our poor kicking coming out of defense cost us half our losing margin. We lacked cohesion all over the ground and we lack the ability to implement any strategy consistently. We also do not have a forward structure. I do not know if it is because our kicking skills and decision making are so poor, the forwards do not have the confidence to run to where they need to be, or
they simply do not know where they are suppose to be when the ball is coming in.
I also think we went in too top heavy, particularly in defense and I think we would have been better to have Buckley down back instead of Rowe, not that Rowe played a bad game.
I have had to rethink where we will fininsh this year after yesterday. I believe we will be down near the bottom this year, where as I thought we would be making some ladder progress this season. However I am quite positive and believe that if we can recruit well again this season, we can march up the ladder quite quickly.

Generally agree BM.

On Gibbs : his softness has been discussed / debated ad nauseam on here and elsewhere. References abound to him looking for easy receives, following the pack, picking and choosing when to go etc.

My possibly stupid question is this :

he's had Pagan, Ratts, Malthouse and Bolton as senior coaches. Included in these coaching changes are also a couple of changes in the senior admin, board etc. of the club. If his various issues are reported accurately here and elsewhere, how is it that he is still on our list ? And not only still there, but one of our highest paid players ? How is it possible that he has managed to flim flam one coach and admin after another ?

Are there mitigating circumstances, or is it possible that our analyses are either inaccurate or one sided ?

@Paul

I think it's just the general talent he has, all coaches think they can tap into that and bring the best out of him.

On Gibbs : his softness has been discussed / debated ad nauseam on here and elsewhere. References abound to him looking for easy receives, following the pack, picking and choosing when to go etc.

My possibly stupid question is this :

he's had Pagan, Ratts, Malthouse and Bolton as senior coaches. Included in these coaching changes are also a couple of changes in the senior admin, board etc. of the club. If his various issues are reported accurately here and elsewhere, how is it that he is still on our list ? And not only still there, but one of our highest paid players ? How is it possible that he has managed to flim flam one coach and admin after another ?

Are there mitigating circumstances, or is it possible that our analyses are either inaccurate or one sided ?

Maybe they think he has something to offer.

His first half was poor yesterday. His second half much better. But the fact remains that we need him to get near contests as an option and he just hasn't got the miles in the legs to keep offering options. At the contest he's stationary and either tries to play inside mid or kick off a step.

Anyway, I'm certain Bolts will hold the players accountable. If he needs to play differently I'm sure that will be communicated to him, but the fact remains they just have far more quality and the more quality you have the better you look, particularly if you work as hard as the Sydney mids.

His first half was poor yesterday. His second half much better. But the fact remains that we need him to get near contests as an option and he just hasn't got the miles in the legs to keep offering options. At the contest he's stationary and either tries to play inside mid or kick off a step.

I just want him to hold an overhead mark when he is under the pump, put his body on the line when it's his turn and not fumble when he hears the footsteps. Oh and that man bun does him no favours whatsoever considering the perception that surrounds him.

I just want him to hold an overhead mark when he is under the pump, put his body on the line when it's his turn and not fumble when he hears the footsteps. Oh and that man bun does him no favours whatsoever considering the perception that is around him.

His fumbling is frustrating. Possibly worse this year than previous.

Gibbs has not yet "flim-flammed" BB. In fact it's early days and I have no doubt that BB will judge Gibbs honestly on the contribution he makes this year. If he is judged as not up to the required standard then I have no doubts that SOS will be looking for a deal, along with any others who are judged similarly. This season is a real watershed AFAIC.

I listened to coverage of the second half on ABC radio and the commentators made the point that our ball movement from the midfield into the forward 50 was very poor.

Any comments?

No forward line structure, no leads, no marking options (where & wtf Casboult was doing for the 2nd & 3rd quarters is beyond me) - it's an absolute mess down there, midfield literally have no clue what to do when going forward....Simmo's ridiculous shot from about 60m out in the 3rd, into the waiting arms of one of 2 Swans players he could've kicked it to, was the perfect example. We're the easiest team to defend against bar none.

Murph isn't really designed to be captain, nor is he designed to be an inside mid. His best year was 2011, when he played outside receiver. This allows the team to take full advantage of his skills, and minimizes any adverse impacts caused by his physical limitations.

Played at least half yesterday on the wing.

This isn't a forward line issue yet apart from how easily the Swans players could sweep up and get out of our forward line.

Swans had 26 more forward entries and I'll hazard a guess that the ball came in a lot easier and with a lot more one on one contests. Buddy and Tippet had a field day.

Played at least half yesterday on the wing.

That's good. Bolton, like Ratten, clearly gets it.

Gibbs has not yet "flim-flammed" BB. In fact it's early days and I have no doubt that BB will judge Gibbs honestly on the contribution he makes this year. If he is judged as not up to the required standard then I have no doubts that SOS will be looking for a deal, along with any others who are judged similarly. This season is a real watershed AFAIC.

You're right cookie. I shouldn't have included Bolton. I was trying to "start a conversation", and move towards a more thorough understanding of Gibbs, away from the much discussed 'softness" angle.

You're right cookie. I shouldn't have included Bolton. I was trying to "start a conversation", and move towards a more thorough understanding of Gibbs, away from the much discussed 'softness" angle.

No worries Paul. I reckon BB is a ruthless little pr1ck under that pleasant smiling exterior and will not want to hold on to players who he doesn't think will fit into his team mould for longer than he has to. He is ably backed up by the equally ruthless SOS who will happily find alternative employment for such players. The places of both Gibbs and Murph in our future are both very interesting questions and as I've already posted, this year is a watershed IMO.

No worries Paul. I reckon BB is a ruthless little pr1ck under that pleasant smiling exterior and will not want to hold on to players who he doesn't think will fit into his team mould for longer than he has to. He is ably backed up by the equally ruthless SOS who will happily find alternative employment for such players. The places of both Gibbs and Murph in our future are both very interesting questions and as I've already posted, this year is a watershed IMO.

I think Murph is safe. Not sure about Bryce.

I think Murph is safe. Not sure about Bryce.

You're probably right.

Murphy and Gibbs are still very good, they're just not the elite players we expected them to become and we have no elite players for them to compliment. Cripps looks set to become one but we still need a couple more.

Murphy and Gibbs are still very good, they're just not the elite players we expected them to become and we have no elite players for them to compliment. Cripps looks set to become one but we still need a couple more.

Totally agree - a couple with some real steel in them. We may have to trade hard to get them and be prepared to let some just "very good" players go in return.

Cripps was gang tackled by 2 or 3 Swans at every ball up, ................................................

On this point - can we implement something like Geelong during their heyday a few years back with Ablett ? Big bodied players like Ling putting on blocks, tags, and shepherds for Ablett to do his thing ? Can we have (for example) White and maybe Krooz or others doing this ?

Murphy and Gibbs are still very good, they're just not the elite players we expected them to become and we have no elite players for them to compliment. Cripps looks set to become one but we still need a couple more.

Gibbs has bucketloads of talent but is soft as butter.. Murphy just doesn't have the strength or physicality to be a force in a struggling line up. Both give it up way too easily for senior blokes that the whole team revolves around. They are the problem, make no mistake.

On this point - can we implement something like Geelong during their heyday a few years back with Ablett ? Big bodied players like Ling putting on blocks, tags, and shepherds for Ablett to do his thing ? Can we have (for example) White and maybe Krooz or others doing this ?

I don't think that's a great idea Paul. Of course there should be blocking etc but we can't afford a one man midfield.

There's no future in it.

WE need multiple threats around the stoppage so they don't just go after Cripps.

I don't think that's a great idea Paul. Of course there should be blocking etc but we can't afford a one man midfield.

There's no future in it.

WE need multiple threats around the stoppage so they don't just go after Cripps.

Fair enough.

Gibbs has bucketloads of talent but is soft as butter.. Murphy just doesn't have the strength or physicality to be a force in a struggling line up. Both give it up way too easily for senior blokes that the whole team revolves around. They are the problem, make no mistake.

I agree on Gibbs but Murphy gets this free pass with this physical strength excuse. He's our captain, he has to be strong, he has to be able to tackle. There are smaller guys than him in the comp who have no problems sticking a tackle, Hannebery embarrassed him yesterday. Last week against the tigers he was our best player but there were a couple of time when he cost us goals from feeble attempts to tackle.

Part of Murph's issue may be technique, but you can't win with a losing hand. No matter how you cut it, he's not that strong, and not that big. Which, around the stoppages, is a big problem.

Although, it has to be said, our tackling in general is pitiful.

On Gibbs : his softness has been discussed / debated ad nauseam on here and elsewhere. References abound to him looking for easy receives, following the pack, picking and choosing when to go etc.

My possibly stupid question is this :

he's had Pagan, Ratts, Malthouse and Bolton as senior coaches. Included in these coaching changes are also a couple of changes in the senior admin, board etc. of the club. If his various issues are reported accurately here and elsewhere, how is it that he is still on our list ? And not only still there, but one of our highest paid players ? How is it possible that he has managed to flim flam one coach and admin after another ?

Are there mitigating circumstances, or is it possible that our analyses are either inaccurate or one sided ?

And that is a huge indictment on our club. Paying a soft c*ck like Gibbs top dollar is bordering on criminal. The guy should have been traded years ago. I honestly can't see what he brings to our club. He's a shyte player, not media savvy and costing us a sh*tload. What's to like?

I don't know how many times I've almost destroyed my television because of him. 2 remotes so far have gone to the place where remotes go to die...

I agree on Gibbs but Murphy gets this free pass with this physical strength excuse. He's our captain, he has to be strong, he has to be able to tackle. There are smaller guys than him in the comp who have no problems sticking a tackle, Hannebery embarrassed him yesterday. Last week against the tigers he was our best player but there were a couple of time when he cost us goals from feeble attempts to tackle.

Season 2015, Murph 19 games, 65 tackles. Hannebery 24 games, 123 tackles.

Hmmm............

Gibbs  had a great year when his contract was winding up and we got him at a good rate IMO. There's somethink like 100 players earning 500k and at his best he is easily in the top 50. I didnt see him yesterday though but reverting back to old ways was always a risk. Hopefully he's just warming into the season.

In other news, apparently Murphy was a million dollar player last year (thanks to front loading)

With Murph's tackling, is it fear ?, is it based on medical advice ? is it tackle phobia ?............

Hard to figure out from outside the club.

HE's had three shoulder reco's.

Might have something to do with it.

It could just be crap shoulder issues.

He had an operation that restricted him from any real action till 2 weeks ago and its a problem he has had on and off during his entire career beginning against the Brisbane Lions in his first season.

We are reaping the fruits of not having nursed him into his career until he was ready to compete physically.

Mind you we have been fairly unlucky in that regard with our first rounders.  Most of them have been able to play but all of them have suffered a significant setback.

Yes, it seems as though he's either spooked or has had medical advice re tackling.

He can tackle okay, seen him do it before plenty of times. It's all about intent.

Murphy does appear to be protecting one side.  But he did have 4 tackles for a total of 10 for the year... suggests some intent.

He didn't have his best game, our entire midfield group got collectively smashed.

With Murph and Gibbsy and who ever else is not as hard as we want and with what BB is thinking.
Just think would that player be of the Hawthorn mould? With that thought you would get an idea whether BB wants them in his team. ???

With Murph and Gibbsy and who ever else is not as hard as we want and with what BB is thinking.
Just think would that player be of the Hawthorn mould? With that thought you would get an idea whether BB wants them in his team. ???

Was talking to a mate who was at the game, reckons Gibbs and Everitt looked particular bad (in terms of effort and hardness) live. I saw one passage of play where Gibbs bullocked his way through two tacklers just fwd of centre and got the ball out to someone who kicked a goal. I thought to myself thats the first time I have ever seen (or at least recalled) Gibbs do that since he started at our Club. I am growing very tired of him to be honest. He is what I call a coach killer or uncoachable. I don't believe he can be coached into the player we (and others) want him to be. BB has come from the Clarkson school, I don't reckon he can coach Gibbs to be the type of player he want, I don't think any one can. I may be wrong and may be proven wrong, but at this stage thats what I think. I also think he will be traded at the first available opportunity. We cannot continue to carry blokes like him any longer. Senior experienced blokes like Gibbs, Murphy, Everitt, Jamo, Simpson, Rowe et al should be taking games by the scruff of the neck and bringing the young kids with them. Not one of those blokes is capable of doing it. Murphy maybe if he rekindled some of the early career form. The rest, pfffft.

Was talking to a mate who was at the game, reckons Gibbs and Everitt looked particular bad (in terms of effort and hardness) live. I saw one passage of play where Gibbs bullocked his way through two tacklers just fwd of centre and got the ball out to someone who kicked a goal. I thought to myself thats the first time I have ever seen (or at least recalled) Gibbs do that since he started at our Club. I am growing very tired of him to be honest. He is what I call a coach killer or uncoachable. I don't believe he can be coached into the player we (and others) want him to be. BB has come from the Clarkson school, I don't reckon he can coach Gibbs to be the type of player he want, I don't think any one can. I may be wrong and may be proven wrong, but at this stage thats what I think. I also think he will be traded at the first available opportunity. We cannot continue to carry blokes like him any longer. Senior experienced blokes like Gibbs, Murphy, Everitt, Jamo, Simpson, Rowe et al should be taking games by the scruff of the neck and bringing the young kids with them. Not one of those blokes is capable of doing it. Murphy maybe if he rekindled some of the early career form. The rest, pfffft.

Who are the "steel" at the core of our team presently? I can think of people like White, Rowe, Tuohy but they have major shortcomings in other areas. Cripps is still very much developing. I think BB will have realised by now that that is probably the very first area he needs to address. Without a tough and solid core to build around, progress will be difficult and we can never aspire to be a Hawks or Swans.

The hate for Gibbs here is astonishing, I wish we had another half a dozen as good as him.

When you're outnumbered in the quality stakes people can often take it out on the better players or existing players.

"Get rid of ....... " "he's crap"
".... Is soft "

I do it as well

The problem is there is no one else yet because they are not ready or they don't exist. If our recruiters and past coaches had done their jobs properly we'd have better players to choose from and that helps everyone and makes everyone look a bit better.

Take out Parker and Hannebery and I guarantee that Kieran Jack and Tom Mitchell don't look like the world beaters they looked yesterday. Jack has struggled in the past when he's had to carry the load and Tom Michells ability to cover bigger players gets exposed.

This is the list we have and we can bitch and moan till the cows come home but we can't change anything till draft/trade time.

The best we can hope for going forward is some improvement in existing players, better application of the game plan and development of the kids and culture.

We are 2 games into the rebuild .

The hate for Gibbs here is astonishing, I wish we had another half a dozen as good as him.

Umm, be careful B4L, you'll get belted on this site for saying things like that!

The hate for Gibbs here is astonishing, I wish we had another half a dozen as good as him.

Yeah but you said exactly the same thing about Nick Stevens.

Murphy has had intent to tackle this season and has no problems tackling IMO. Hit Martin with a ripper last week. His biggest problem is dropping the ball and feigning for frees at the slightest hint of pressure. He and Gibbs in the centre square is pure suicide.

The hate for Gibbs here is astonishing, I wish we had another half a dozen as good as him.

i dont think its hate, its more perpetual disappointment. Everyone knows what he's capable of
He just doesn't bring it when required. fustrating , as this separates him from the elite

Yeah but you said exactly the same thing about Nick Stevens.

Same as Gibbs really, a standout player in a crappy side who pissed off supporters take their frustrations out on.

Same as Gibbs really, a standout player in a crappy side who pissed off supporters take their frustrations out on.

Classy skilled player, unwilling or unable to put his body on the line when it matters. Stevens was just as weak overhead too.

Senior experienced blokes like Gibbs, Murphy, Everitt, Jamo, Simpson, Rowe et al should be taking games by the scruff of the neck and bringing the young kids with them. Not one of those blokes is capable of doing it. Murphy maybe if he rekindled some of the early career form. The rest, pfffft.

Rowe to me is the Tim Henman equivalent.  He has played more AFL games than I could ever dream of playing and good luck to him, but Henman was never going to be more than a quarter final winner in a Grand Slam tournament  because he simply wasn't good enough.  The Poms moaning non stop from 1998 - 2004 about him not reaching his potential etc....but he DID reach his potential.  Rowe is the same. What you see is what you get. He gives 100% and often reaches his potential, but unfortunately his potential is less than what many expect.

If there was someone better, he wouldn't have his place.

When you're outnumbered in the quality stakes people can often take it out on the better players or existing players.

"Get rid of ....... " "he's crap"
".... Is soft "

I do it as well

The problem is there is no one else yet because they are not ready or they don't exist. If our recruiters and past coaches had done their jobs properly we'd have better players to choose from and that helps everyone and makes everyone look a bit better.

Take out Parker and Hannebery and I guarantee that Kieran Jack and Tom Mitchell don't look like the world beaters they looked yesterday. Jack has struggled in the past when he's had to carry the load and Tom Michells ability to cover bigger players gets exposed.

This is the list we have and we can bitch and moan till the cows come home but we can't change anything till draft/trade time.

The best we can hope for going forward is some improvement in existing players, better application of the game plan and development of the kids and culture.

We are 2 games into the rebuild .

Fair points CIMM, but I'd have less grey hairs if Bryce had Nathan Jones' heart. I know no player is perfect..........

Classy skilled player, unwilling or unable to put his body on the line when it matters. Stevens was just as weak overhead too.

Maybe, maybe not, but at least they can hit a target which puts them head and shoulders ahead of three quarters of our team.
Realistically we have about half a dozen players who would get a game at a top four side and Gibbs is one of them.

Maybe, maybe not, but at least they can hit a target which puts them head and shoulders ahead of three quarters of our team.
Realistically we have about half a dozen players who would get a game at a top four side and Gibbs is one of them.

Gibbs does not hit targets when under pressure. Jason Tutt can hit a target when clear.

Gibbs does not hit targets when under pressure. Jason Tutt can hit a target when clear.

I've never seen Simmo butcher it as badly as he did yesterday, his foot skills have never been flash but yesterday they hit an all time low.
Maybe it's contagious.

Maybe, maybe not, but at least they can hit a target which puts them head and shoulders ahead of three quarters of our team.
Realistically we have about half a dozen players who would get a game at a top four side and Gibbs is one of them.

Gibbs would not play at hawthorn or Sydney the way he currently plays.
They have minimum standards of commitment.
Absolute garbage

The hate for Gibbs here is astonishing, I wish we had another half a dozen as good as him.

As good as him? Agreed. As soft as him? No thanks.

Classy skilled player, unwilling or unable to put his body on the line when it matters. Stevens was just as weak overhead too.

BANG!

Classy skilled player, unwilling or unable to put his body on the line when it matters. Stevens was just as weak overhead too.

Umm, be careful B4L Carrots, you'll get belted on this site for saying things like that!

Gibbs may not be Joel Selwood but he's not Nick Stevens either.

Stevens was the the biggest skirt to play for Carlton since .....(a player who's name I'd rather not say)

We are 2 games into the rebuild .

I get that but I am frustrated that the more senior and experienced players look more at sea than the young ones (except Murph who has been pretty good both weeks).

I get that but I am frustrated that the more senior and experienced players look more at sea than the young ones (except Murph who has been pretty good both weeks).

Give Murphy and Gibbs any 2 of Hannebery, Parker, Cunningham, Mitchell or Jack to help them out and there'd be a big difference.

Not saying Gibbs and Murph can't do more I'm just saying its a numbers game in the mids.

I'm a bit in two minds about Gibbs.

He has that rare ability to do things very easily and look like he has a lot of time...That sometimes gives the impression that he is going half paced.

At the same time I'm struggling to think of times when a match has turned against us and Gibbs has been instrumental in bringing us back into the game.

The tackling across the ground by us was shocking - pretty much every single tackle was walked thru by the swans, it wasn't only Murph.

Agree re Gibbs' talent - it just seemed yday that he wasn't going to kill himself to try and get us over the line unlike Judd who did that every game. Just have to face it that until there are better players around Gibbs, he's not going to step up

Agree re Gibbs' talent - it just seemed yday that he wasn't going to kill himself to try and get us over the line unlike Judd who did that every game. Just have to face it that until there are better players around Gibbs, he's not going to step up

Judd was one of the best footballers of the last 20 or 30 years, there's no comparison between him and Gibbs.
Gibbs went at pick one so we all expected an elite footballer and are disappointed that we didn't get one, he's still a very good player though.

Gibbs would not play at hawthorn or Sydney the way he currently plays.
They have minimum standards of commitment.
Absolute garbage

Gibbs has played under Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Barker and now Bolton and to the best of my recollection has never been dropped.
So unless all of those coaches, two of whom were multiple Premiership coaches, are willing to tolerate uncommitted players I think that the perception around Gibbs doesn't reflect the reality.

The problem is not Gibbs,Murph and Cripps it is the layer under them.Graham is not up to it Kerridge may get there and who else is there,Simmo no on baller either is buckly,and at this stage I don't know about wright.Thomas maybe curnow try's he's guts out .but when of Gibbs Murph or. Cripps go of the ball our on ballers are terrible.At the game yesterday Phillips and Kruezer both won there share of hit outs but the question to me is not wether the swans were sparking but if our rucks can hit it to our players.Phillips was head and shoulders above Tippett and the other plodder.The  reason they kicked goals was as soon as the ball was bounced they ran forward knowing there on ballers would get it and kick it forward where our rucks were still in the center fighting for they ball.whichh meant the likes of doc and simo had to mind two men including a ruckman it does not work.So stop blaming the likes of Gibbs Murph And Cripps it's the next tier that let's us down.
Check the stats of Everitt,lamb,Graham,Rowe etc that's the trouble not the top end but the bottom 6 or 7.
Like it or not at least that's my opinion

Gibbs would not play at hawthorn or Sydney the way he currently plays.
They have minimum standards of commitment.
Absolute garbage

I'm thinking if he played at those clubs he'd have found his 2014 form long before. Different club, different culture and he'd play accordingly, which is disappointing.

The problem is not Gibbs,Murph and Cripps it is the layer under them.Graham is not up to it Kerridge may get there and who else is there,Simmo no on baller either is buckly,and at this stage I don't know about wright.Thomas maybe curnow try's he's guts out .but when of Gibbs Murph or. Cripps go of the ball our on ballers are terrible.At the game yesterday Phillips and Kruezer both won there share of hit outs but the question to me is not wether the swans were sparking but if our rucks can hit it to our players.Phillips was head and shoulders above Tippett and the other plodder.The  reason they kicked goals was as soon as the ball was bounced they ran forward knowing there on ballers would get it and kick it forward where our rucks were still in the center fighting for they ball.whichh meant the likes of doc and simo had to mind two men including a ruckman it does not work.So stop blaming the likes of Gibbs Murph And Cripps it's the next tier that let's us down.
Check the stats of Everitt,lamb,Graham,Rowe etc that's the trouble not the top end but the bottom 6 or 7.
Like it or not at least that's my opinion

That's how I see it.

Although Gibbs has been fumbling a lot and it's starting to crap me.

Seens like Gibbs is getting a whack and Murphy a bit of a pass.

They were both as bad as each other. Everything they touched turned to poop basically.

And Cripps couldn't get near it. And everyone else had pretty down games.

BB was good despit corky which was really encouraging. Hope he doesn't miss next week.

Hope for a swift turnaround next week from the lot of them.

Was SOSOS emergency?  Dropped out of the VFL match.

Simmo no on baller

So I love Simmo, one of my all time fave CFC players. I saw him on Papley yesterday, a 2 game rookie made a 243 gamer look like a dill on least couple of occasions. I do not accept this in any way shape of form, I expect more from the experienced fellas. We've sacked 2 coaches now on these blokes watch, I'm starting to wonder.

I'm a bit in two minds about Gibbs.

He has that rare ability to do things very easily and look like he has a lot of time...That sometimes gives the impression that he is going half paced.

At the same time I'm struggling to think of times when a match has turned against us and Gibbs has been instrumental in bringing us back into the game.

You've summed up my feelings to Gibbs pretty well their Lods. I wonder how he would be perceived if at a stoppage he was constantly grabbing at his shorts and sucking in some big air a la Judd. He would have to be in the top 2 or 3 most reliable kicks for goal at the club be that a set shot or in play, but he doesn't appear to have the ability to grab the game by the throat. Judd could do that, so could Kouta and Diesel. Cripps looks the next most likely while Gibbs and Murph despite their #1 draft pick status appear destined to never be the complete package.

So I love Simmo, one of my all time fave CFC players. I saw him on Papley yesterday, a 2 game rookie made a 243 gamer look like a dill on least couple of occasions. I do not accept this in any way shape of form, I expect more from the experienced fellas. We've sacked 2 coaches now on these blokes watch, I'm starting to wonder.

I'm a massive Simmo fan, but even after the Richmond game I was starting to think that perhaps time is catching up with him. Making too many unsimmo like mistakes. Hope I'm proven wrong because he has been a warrior for our club during these dark times.

I'm a bit in two minds about Gibbs.

He has that rare ability to do things very easily and look like he has a lot of time...That sometimes gives the impression that he is going half paced.

At the same time I'm struggling to think of times when a match has turned against us and Gibbs has been instrumental in bringing us back into the game.

That contrasts heavily that with memories of The Hyphen! ;)

Gibbs has played under Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Barker and now Bolton and to the best of my recollection has never been dropped.
So unless all of those coaches, two of whom were multiple Premiership coaches, are willing to tolerate uncommitted players I think that the perception around Gibbs doesn't reflect the reality.

What would they know B4L?

Not only has Gibbs never been dropped but each of those coaches, except perhaps Barker, have singled Gibbs out for high praise.  I'm not sure what it is about Gibbs that raises the ire of some supporters but I suspect that I may have stumbled across it during the Swans NAB game.  A supporter seated not far from me was critical of Gibbs throughout the game and, after one passage of play that we stuffed up, launched into a tirade of abuse about how weak Gibbs was; he was actually on the interchange bench at the time  ::)

Supporters see what they want to see, coaches see what they are paid to see.

I'm not sure what it is about Gibbs that raises the ire of some supporters but I suspect that I may have stumbled across it during the Swans NAB game.  A supporter seated not far from me was critical of Gibbs throughout the game and, after one passage of play that we stuffed up, launched into a tirade of abuse about how weak Gibbs was; he was actually on the interchange bench at the time  ::)

 ;D ;D ;D
Made my night DJ. I think every team has these sort of supporters.

What would they know B4L?

Not only has Gibbs never been dropped but each of those coaches, except perhaps Barker, have singled Gibbs out for high praise.  I'm not sure what it is about Gibbs that raises the ire of some supporters but I suspect that I may have stumbled across it during the Swans NAB game.  A supporter seated not far from me was critical of Gibbs throughout the game and, after one passage of play that we stuffed up, launched into a tirade of abuse about how weak Gibbs was; he was actually on the interchange bench at the time  ::)

Supporters see what they want to see, coaches see what they are paid to see.

Anyone who watches at the ground and isn't stuck ball watching will see Gibbs sorting out his opponent 9 out of 10 times well before the ball or the TV cameras arrive, but on TV it looks like another soft uncontested possession! ;)

As far as 10 goal losses go, there were a few good things. Weitering showed that he will, barring injury play most games this year. Amazing poise and ability for such a young fellow.

Curnow's debut showed plenty of promise. He worked hard and was rewarded with his first goal. He too has a bright future. I hope for his sake he can put in a few games, then go back and work hard in the seconds without too many expectations. We load up a lot of hope on very young players sometimes.

Other good efforts were had from kerridge, cripps, Boekhorst. Thomas, as others had mentioned had his best game in blue. That was a fine mark in front of franklin.

It was good to see the team keep working, despite being thumped. They also kept taking a few risks by seeking to centre the ball. We also played franklin well, with defenders swapping as franklin moved up and down the ground.

I dont get all the potting of Murphy and Gibbs. Both have been stalwarts in a shambles of a club for a long time and this takes its toll. Both were thrown in the deep end in their first season as teenagers and have had to battle in a poor environment replete with poor standards and low expectations. Neither have enjoyed the benefits of good leadership, including Judd, whose performance as captain escaped scrutiny relative to the criticism heaped upon others. They both have their limitations, but most of all have struggled with the burden that a number 1 pick creates. Neither of them had good games, but they are the best we have for now and will bounce back.

Having a style of play highly dependent upon fast accurate ball movement is going to challenge many players, and mistakes are going to happen. Sides like sydney are going to capitalise as they did. They looked awfully strong in the middle, and once they got it forward scored heavily.

And touhy proved the old theory that a feature in the paper before the game leads to a bad performance.

;D ;D ;D
Made my night DJ. I think every team has these sort of supporters.

I used to sit near a bloke at the G who had one of those really grating voices and he would spend the entire game paying out on every Carlton player.  One of the rough looking blokes in front of me finally had enough and gave him an earful along the lines, "There are all trying their hardest and all you can do is criticise.  Shut the f**k up!"  He walked out and I never saw him again :)

I can't be bothered reading through 12 pages, can someone give me the readers digest version of the overall opinion of Daisys game?

I can't be bothered reading through 12 pages, can someone give me the readers digest version of the overall opinion of Daisys game?

Worked incredibly hard, laid tackles and got to plenty of contests. Our best player on the day and finished with an excellent mark in front of franklin. Probably lacks a little match condition, but barring  injury will be a good asset for the club this season.

Worked incredibly hard, laid tackles and got to plenty of contests. Our best player on the day and finished with an excellent mark in front of franklin. Probably lacks a little match condition, but barring  injury will be a good asset for the club this season.

Thats the average persons opinion not just your own?
Cool.
Thanks

A 10 goal loss is pretty much where we sit at the moment, anyone who doesn't have Sydney in their top 4 is kidding themselves, they have every base covered. They have addressed their speed and youth issues while keeping a bloody good core together.

Sydney would consider themselves a chance this year, and would have studied Hawthorn and their movement of the ball trying to come up with a way to combat it, seeing we are tying to adopt the Hawthorn style of play we played right into their hands, what better way to practise that to come up against a "light version" of the style you planning to stop, and stop us they did.

There was no multiple runners working the ball from defence as options were covered. Switching the play was very hard and options inside were covered or missed due to pressure (perceived or real).

I posted before the start of the season we are a real chance to go 0-8 or 1-7 for the first couple of months, any thing above that was is a win and I stand by those comments. While I was barracking and screaming, in the light of the next day I saw things to get excited about. Weitering again looked composed, Curnow did some nice things, he needs game time to get used to the speed and physicality of the game. Cripps while having a quite game was still effective in patches and Docherty seems to be ready for a break out game, I see a confident man, where seasons past he looked like a rabbit in the headlights.

I look forward to the game this weekend, while I see us 0-8, I think we are a real chance against a team that hasn't played against the Hawthorn style this season.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned that Cripps got a corky early in the game and had limited mobility.

Thats the average persons opinion not just your own?
Cool.
Thanks

My opinion. Thomas cops a lot for his profile and his contract. But stripping all that out he played very well in a losing side. The mark in the last was a real highlight.

What would they know B4L?

Not only has Gibbs never been dropped but each of those coaches, except perhaps Barker, have singled Gibbs out for high praise.  I'm not sure what it is about Gibbs that raises the ire of some supporters but I suspect that I may have stumbled across it during the Swans NAB game.  A supporter seated not far from me was critical of Gibbs throughout the game and, after one passage of play that we stuffed up, launched into a tirade of abuse about how weak Gibbs was; he was actually on the interchange bench at the time  ::)

Supporters see what they want to see, coaches see what they are paid to see.

From Wikipedia ...

Gibbs was named in Carlton's leadership group for the 2007 AFL season without having played a single AFL match, which is the first time in history this has happened.
He made his debut in round one against Richmond and kicked a goal with his first kick while becoming the 1100th player to play for Carlton. 17 disposals at 100 percent efficiency and a great shut-down role on Brownlow Medallist Jason Akermanis in Round 10 earned Gibbs his nomination for the NAB Rising Star award.
Gibbs played every game of the 2007 season and kicked five goals. Most of his development and experience has been in the backline where he has played as a half back flanker.
In 2008, new coach Brett Ratten reduced the size of the leadership group, and Gibbs was excluded from the new group.

I hate the whole concept of Leadership groups so I treat his selection (although, in hindsight, it was pretty ridiculous and indicative of how little frickin' clue the Club had back then) and subsequent de-selection with a grain of salt.  When I expressed my frustration with Gibbs on this forum a few years back someone responded (might have been Sheik) saying that Gibbs is Gibbs - what you see is what you get and it ain't gonna change. This produced a sense of calm resignation in me such that I no longer smash remote controls.

Bryce is the perfect embodiment of a footballer representing the 7 stages of grief:

1. Shock or disbelief.  "Yes! We got him! No. 1!  And he's in the Leadership Group already?!?"
2. Denial. "It's early days yet. He's gonna be fine."
3. Bargaining. "A little more time down back will turn him into the perfect all-round footballer".
4. Guilt. "Why did we waste a no. 1 pick on this guy?"
5. Anger. "We wasted a No. 1 pick on THIS guy?"
6. Depression. "Ten years. Four no. 1 draft picks. Another wooden spoon."
7. Acceptance. "Gibbs is Gibbs. What you see is what you get."

I can see a few of you stragglers need to get a hurry-on and join us Enlightened Ones at Stage 7.

My opinion. Thomas cops a lot for his profile and his contract. But stripping all that out he played very well in a losing side. The mark in the last was a real highlight.

Mine too.
He took a while to adjust but then really looked to compete consistently. The use of his body and preparedness to take a risk impressed me. Might be premature, but he looked injury free and fit for this stage of the fixture. His tenacity can only inspire his teammates.

From Wikipedia ...

Gibbs was named in Carlton's leadership group for the 2007 AFL season without having played a single AFL match, which is the first time in history this has happened.
He made his debut in round one against Richmond and kicked a goal with his first kick while becoming the 1100th player to play for Carlton. 17 disposals at 100 percent efficiency and a great shut-down role on Brownlow Medallist Jason Akermanis in Round 10 earned Gibbs his nomination for the NAB Rising Star award.
Gibbs played every game of the 2007 season and kicked five goals. Most of his development and experience has been in the backline where he has played as a half back flanker.
In 2008, new coach Brett Ratten reduced the size of the leadership group, and Gibbs was excluded from the new group.

I hate the whole concept of Leadership groups so I treat his selection (although, in hindsight, it was pretty ridiculous and indicative of how little frickin' clue the Club had back then) and subsequent de-selection with a grain of salt.  When I expressed my frustration with Gibbs on this forum a few years back someone responded (might have been Sheik) saying that Gibbs is Gibbs - what you see is what you get and it ain't gonna change. This produced a sense of calm resignation in me such that I no longer smash remote controls.

Bryce is the perfect embodiment of a footballer representing the 7 stages of grief:

1. Shock or disbelief.  "Yes! We got him! No. 1!  And he's in the Leadership Group already?!?"
2. Denial. "It's early days yet. He's gonna be fine."
3. Bargaining. "A little more time down back will turn him into the perfect all-round footballer".
4. Guilt. "Why did we waste a no. 1 pick on this guy?"
5. Anger. "We wasted a No. 1 pick on THIS guy?"
6. Depression. "Ten years. Four no. 1 draft picks. Another wooden spoon."
7. Acceptance. "Gibbs is Gibbs. What you see is what you get."

I can see a few of you stragglers need to get a hurry-on and join us Enlightened Ones at Stage 7.

Gold

The problem with Gibbs this week is that there was no Goodes to run with/tag, which has done for several seasons.  As a result he had no idea what to do.

I saw some snippets of the game (the Telstra app is useless) and listened to a fair bit of the commentary.

The positives I took out of the game are:
1. Bolton refused to go defensive and didn't allow any of our players to have an easy time.  He will have learnt more about who is capable from that game than he did in the last 6 months.
2.  We didn't give up.  Even though we were being smashed by a very good team, players tried their hardest right to the end.

We are terrible.  We haven't improved at all under Bolts.  We have a toxic losing culture that revolves around Andrew MacKay and other cronies.  Heads should have rolled for the Betts trade decision- Andrew I'm sure had a lot to do with that.  Why Waite is playing at another club, let alone doing so well is just Frickan SAD.  We put 5 months into a pre-season campaign supposedly learning new things, but 2nd week in and the tractor is lining up at full forward.  Yeah right.  Get rid of the lot of them- board included.

We are terrible.  We haven't improved at all under Bolts.  We have a toxic losing culture that revolves around Andrew MacKay and other cronies.  Heads should have rolled for the Betts trade decision- Andrew I'm sure had a lot to do with that.  Why Waite is playing at another club, let alone doing so well is just Frickan SAD.  We put 5 months into a pre-season campaign supposedly learning new things, but 2nd week in and the tractor is lining up at full forward.  Yeah right.  Get rid of the lot of them- board included.

So youve given the Coach 2 rnds and want him sacked? FMD!

Mine too.
He took a while to adjust but then really looked to compete consistently. The use of his body and preparedness to take a risk impressed me. Might be premature, but he looked injury free and fit for this stage of the fixture. His tenacity can only inspire his teammates.

I think Thomas cops a lot not just because of his contract but what he represents, the stupidity of our club.

So youve given the Coach 2 rnds and want him sacked? FMD!

No I don't think it is Bolton's fault- other than the playing of tractor at full forward which i believe IS his fault.  No the issue is with the administration.  It's all too easy to play at the blues.  Good contracts, nice club facilities, a nice vet who will look after your sick puppy and a president who gives out housing portfolios.  The simple fact about the weekend is we lost by 10 goals!  Yes Sydney are a good side, but are they 10 goals better?  10 goals to me means we don't want the damn ball enough.  Look at the way the bulldogs keep it inside their forward 50.  They are manic.  If you do that, you don't go down by 10 goals.  It's a cultural thing.  It's been all too easy there for too long.  If you do have a bit of flair/nastiness- e.g Betts, Waite, Laider, Macinnies etc.  Andrew and Co. find you guilty of being a crape human being and you get delisted.  Well I think some of the worst human beings make good footballers.  I would back , and I think this actually might happen, a board spill at round 15.  Brown will come in and turn the club culture around.  He will have to, because by then our crowds will be 8,000 max, they'll shut the 2nd and 3rd levels at the G on a cold Sunday arvo and will won't be able to get a pie, nor pay the bills at the club.  Weltering will be offered a bit deal by the pies and Casboult will be on his way to Freo.

So youve given the Coach 2 rnds and want him sacked? FMD!

Posts reads like our former contributor Mosquito Fleet.
 :o

No I don't think it is Bolton's fault- other than the playing of tractor at full forward which i believe IS his fault.  No the issue is with the administration.  It's all too easy to play at the blues.  Good contracts, nice club facilities, a nice vet who will look after your sick puppy and a president who gives out housing portfolios.  The simple fact about the weekend is we lost by 10 goals!  Yes Sydney are a good side, but are they 10 goals better?  10 goals to me means we don't want the damn ball enough.  Look at the way the bulldogs keep it inside their forward 50.  They are manic.  If you do that, you don't go down by 10 goals.  It's a cultural thing.  It's been all too easy there for too long.  If you do have a bit of flair/nastiness- e.g Betts, Waite, Laider, Macinnies etc.  Andrew and Co. find you guilty of being a crape human being and you get delisted.  Well I think some of the worst human beings make good footballers.  I would back , and I think this actually might happen, a board spill at round 15.  Brown will come in and turn the club culture around.  He will have to, because by then our crowds will be 8,000 max, they'll shut the 2nd and 3rd levels at the G on a cold Sunday arvo and will won't be able to get a pie, nor pay the bills at the club.  Weltering will be offered a bit deal by the pies and Casboult will be on his way to Freo.

Piss off idiot.

Youve obviously got an agenda to push . That powerhouse with the super list Collingwood got beaten worse.

Posts reads like our former contributor Mosquito Fleet.
 :o

Hey don't get me wrong, I love my blues.  I live for em.  But I am just voicing my opinion and frustration of what I think is going on at the club.  i could be wrong, I could be right.  Time will tell I guess.

Hey don't get me wrong, I love my blues.  I live for em.  But I am just voicing my opinion and frustration of what I think is going on at the club.  i could be wrong, I could be right.  Time will tell I guess.

Sure Mozzie.

Mate, you're hopeless.

Board, McKay and lies.

Same crap on TC. Cover blown, hit the bricks.

Sure Mozzie.

Mate, you're hopeless.

Board, McKay and lies.

Same crap on TC. Cover blown, hit the bricks.

I don't know who this mozzie is that you are referring to.  Anyway, at the end of the day I'm entitled to my opinion as you are entitled to yours.  I hope I am wrong.  But I fear that things are going to get worse.  Let's hope for a better showing against Gold Coast.

I don't know who this mozzie is that you are referring to.  Anyway, at the end of the day I'm entitled to my opinion as you are entitled to yours.  I hope I am wrong.  But I fear that things are going to get worse.  Let's hope for a better showing against Gold Coast.

Sure.

Sure.

Hey fella (fwiw),  just read my other posts.  I'm not Mossie?  Most of my posts are pretty positive.  I'm just very frustrated at the moment. It is sickening to watch week after week.  Anyway, goodnight.

You're the definition of an internet troll and you are deceiving nobody.

Inboltswetrust as a name.

One bad loss and goes bang.

Yep.   Nup.  Internet troll. 

No I don't think it is Bolton's fault- other than the playing of tractor at full forward which i believe IS his fault.  No the issue is with the administration.  It's all too easy to play at the blues.  Good contracts, nice club facilities, a nice vet who will look after your sick puppy and a president who gives out housing portfolios.  The simple fact about the weekend is we lost by 10 goals!  Yes Sydney are a good side, but are they 10 goals better?  10 goals to me means we don't want the damn ball enough.  Look at the way the bulldogs keep it inside their forward 50.  They are manic.  If you do that, you don't go down by 10 goals.  It's a cultural thing.  It's been all too easy there for too long.  If you do have a bit of flair/nastiness- e.g Betts, Waite, Laider, Macinnies etc.  Andrew and Co. find you guilty of being a crape human being and you get delisted.  Well I think some of the worst human beings make good footballers.  I would back , and I think this actually might happen, a board spill at round 15.  Brown will come in and turn the club culture around.  He will have to, because by then our crowds will be 8,000 max, they'll shut the 2nd and 3rd levels at the G on a cold Sunday arvo and will won't be able to get a pie, nor pay the bills at the club.  Weltering will be offered a bit deal by the pies and Casboult will be on his way to Freo.

WTF? :o. Where did this come from?
We want 'green shoots' not 'green poops'! ;D

The Age Carlton vs Swans:

Best Carlton: Wright, Weitering, Thomas, Gibbs, Docherty, Kerridge.

The other site I checked was the AFL website summary again with Gibbs in the best four.  No independent article I have read, has been critical of this game or has given a 'Cotchin' type review of his game.

Interesting what different sets of eyes see.

The Age Carlton vs Swans:

Best Carlton: Wright, Weitering, Thomas, Gibbs, Docherty, Kerridge.

The other site I checked was the AFL website summary again with Gibbs in the best four.  No independent article I have read, has been critical of this game or has given a 'Cotchin' type review of his game.

Interesting what different sets of eyes see.

There is seeing a game and then there is 'watching' a game. ;)

Posts reads like our former contributor Mosquito Fleet.
 :o

Definitely Mozzie ;D

Definitely Mozzie ;D

Lurking yesterday. And Essendon won, so no surprises.

To all the people on here that claim ' I don't get the criticism of Murphy and Gibbs' it's quite simple. Chuck on the replay and watch the centre bounce when it is 2 goals all and watch what both Murphy and Gibbs do when they get their hands on the ball. Then go back and as painful as it may be, watch the Carlton Richmond replay as well and watch them do it again. The pull out a replay each year from the past 2-3 years and watch them do it all over again. If you can't be bothered or don't wish to actually see if you're right or wrong, well, as they say, sweet ignorance is bliss.

If you guys think that is acceptable from two highly paid players that have almost two decades of experience between them then I do not want to hear you complain about where the club is ever again because quite simply, you are willing to accept mediocrity. We will never get anywhere with these two running our midfield, mark my words. And yes I'm sure Murphy will come out and play a blinder and everyone will go 'oh great game Murph' but that should be the rule, not the exception as it seems to be. 

Posts reads like our former contributor Mosquito Fleet.
 :o

It's not mossie guys, the use of words and conjugation is completely different. Trust the site detective. ;D

The Age Carlton vs Swans:

Best Carlton: Wright, Weitering, Thomas, Gibbs, Docherty, Kerridge.

The other site I checked was the AFL website summary again with Gibbs in the best four.  No independent article I have read, has been critical of this game or has given a 'Cotchin' type review of his game.

Interesting what different sets of eyes see.

Yeah, especially when they look at the stats sheet and not the game.

Yes I understand Murph has his limitations ie he's a bit small and not very strong so okay that's fair enough but why then is he the highest paid player and captain of our club? I mean look at our top three earners, Murphy, Gibbs and Daisy (who was okay on Sunday but not 700k okay). And you guys wonder why we struggle. Go look at every other club's top 3 paid players and see the huge gulf in hunger and hardness. We will always be soft with Gibbs and Murphy running our midfield, they have shown themselves to be incapable of what we need from them time and time again. Just look at the one constant throughout this whole mess, they are it.

Go look at every other club's top 3 paid players and see the huge gulf in hunger and hardness.

l
This[/b]

I don't think that anyone has mentioned that Cripps got a corky early in the game and had limited mobility.

Possibility 'cos no-one knew??? I didn't......

10 tackles though, shows he can still have an impact even when not able to cover the ground as well as he'd like. Love him more every week.

Thats the average persons opinion not just your own?
Cool.
Thanks

Viv's on the money, if not for Daisy we would have lost by 4 or 5 more goals, he never stopped trying unlike some others on our list.

It's not mossie guys, the use of words and conjugation is completely different. Trust the site detective. ;D

agreed. its not mosquito fleet.

Im mosquito fleet ;)

No Carlton player in the coaches' votes.  Seems fair.

What would they know B4L?

Not only has Gibbs never been dropped but each of those coaches, except perhaps Barker, have singled Gibbs out for high praise.  I'm not sure what it is about Gibbs that raises the ire of some supporters but I suspect that I may have stumbled across it during the Swans NAB game.  A supporter seated not far from me was critical of Gibbs throughout the game and, after one passage of play that we stuffed up, launched into a tirade of abuse about how weak Gibbs was; he was actually on the interchange bench at the time  ::)

Supporters see what they want to see, coaches see what they are paid to see.

I've had the same thing happen to me, I sat next to a significant club benefactor last season watching a game and he let rip a massive rant about Murphy when it was actually Boekhurst who squibbed some contests. Ironically it was the Collingwood game last year at The G when Murphy was clearly BOG. This supporter is obviously fixated on Murphy for some reason, and even when Murphy was at his very best the supporters brain still blames him for a defeat. During the same game he leaned across and asked me who Cripps was!

Unfortunately this was a bloke who f0rks out big dollars to support Carlton but in my estimate he probably could not tell SpecialK from Gallucci. All he is interested in is Carlton winning and being associated with a winning club, when we don't he cuts loose with massive rants. The really sad part of this, some of them are big enough dollar donors that the club and it's other high end support groups have to sit tough and listen to their complaints. If something is spoken often enough it can be perceived as true even if it is baseless.

@LP

Funny!

I was invited to a Hawthorn game last year by someone who presents himself to me as one of their ardent supporters. About halfway through the first quarter he leaned over and asked me who the Hawks #15 was! I was gobsmacked.

agreed. its not mosquito fleet.

Im mosquito fleet ;)

Classic  :)

Everyone seems to focus on our mid-field, particularly Gibbs, Murphy & Thomas. I think Murphy is a fabulous leader. I think he leads from the front, puts his body on the line and never stops running. His problem is we do not have enough good followers. We do not have enough players who can do their jobs. With Murphy it is not the leadership that is the problem, it is the lack of followship.
With Thomas, I think we paid too much for him and he has been injured. I think he he can keep fit and stay on the field, he will be a lot better and make a positive contribution to the team. He has great leadership and is a excellent team player. But at his best he may not be now value for money. So i think we should judge him on what he does rather than what the previous administration did to get him here.
With Gibbs, the reason the Coaches love him is that he does his job. He has the ability to stay disciplined and not get caught up in the emotion of the game. It was only under Malthouse where he was allowed to go out and consistently hunt the ball. The consequence was he won the B&F.
I actually think our problem is that we do not have dominant key position players. We have Jamison down back who is competitive but is past his best and Casboult up forward who is problematic. Our key position players may beat their opponents, or reduce their effect on the game, but they do not dominate the games. Weitering Curnow, Plowman, McKay, Silvagni, Glass-McClasken could all be part of the future solution to this issue. You will be surprised how good our running players will be come if we developed a good spine.

I actually think our problem is that we do not have dominant key position players. We have Jamison down back who is competitive but is past his best and Casboult up forward who is problematic. Our key position players may beat their opponents, or reduce their effect on the game, but they do not dominate the games. Weitering Curnow, Plowman, McKay, Silvagni, Glass-McClasken could all be part of the future solution to this issue. You will be surprised how good our running players will be come if we developed a good spine.

I dont necessarily agree with this entire post but this is a key issue for our club. I am wary because I remember seeing a first year Murphy getting the poo smashed out of him until Copeland flung him and busted his shoulder up.

Murphy got up and tried to tackle him, causing a throw in while out numbered,i believe, before limping off - his season over. I thought  this kid will be up there with our best leaders, which hasnt quite panned out.

So while it's exciting seeing these kids we have to remember that there is a long way to go and their leadership qualities need to be nurtured as much as their footy skills.

@LP

Funny!

I was invited to a Hawthorn game last year by someone who presents himself to me as one of their ardent supporters. About halfway through the first quarter he leaned over and asked me who the Hawks #15 was! I was gobsmacked.

We were not actually at the ground, that would have been seriously embarrassing, we were watching on a big screen. I don't get into the exclusive zones at The G that this bloke would normally sit in! ;)

I wonder if eyesight, or significant lack of it, is a major contributing factor.

But when you claim you are a Dawks supporter and ask about Hodge by jumper number that is seriously questionable! Did you tell him it was the "Lean Cuisine" guy! :D

we need quick players that can run break the lines carry the ball ,we have to many same paced players in the team.

we need quick players that can run break the lines carry the ball ,we have to many same paced players in the team.

Have I heard this before? :D

(http://tabbycatmusicarchives.com/alicesanimations/00images2/afcarouselsm.gif)

Like Yarran and Garlett! :o

We were not actually at the ground, that would have been seriously embarrassing, we were watching on a big screen. I don't get into the exclusive zones at The G that this bloke would normally sit in! ;)

I wonder if eyesight, or significant lack of it, is a major contributing factor.

But when you claim you are a Dawks supporter and ask about Hodge by jumper number that is seriously questionable! Did you tell him it was the "Lean Cuisine" guy! :D

They need to make a movie for that No.15 guy and call it Australian Sniper! :P

As far as 10 goal losses go, there were a few good things. Weitering showed that he will, barring injury play most games this year. Amazing poise and ability for such a young fellow.

Yes, been fantastic. Why do I have a strong sense we won't be using the same excuses for him that you have mentioned below. Maybe it has something to do a sense of entitlement that I perceive has accompanied Murph and Gibbs from day one.

Curnow's debut showed plenty of promise. He worked hard and was rewarded with his first goal. He too has a bright future. I hope for his sake he can put in a few games, then go back and work hard in the seconds without too many expectations. We load up a lot of hope on very young players sometimes.

Other good efforts were had from kerridge, cripps, Boekhorst. Thomas, as others had mentioned had his best game in blue. That was a fine mark in front of franklin.

It was good to see the team keep working, despite being thumped. They also kept taking a few risks by seeking to centre the ball. We also played franklin well, with defenders swapping as franklin moved up and down the ground.

I dont get all the potting of Murphy and Gibbs. Both have been stalwarts in a shambles of a club for a long time and this takes its toll. Both were thrown in the deep end in their first season as teenagers and have had to battle in a poor environment replete with poor standards and low expectations. Neither have enjoyed the benefits of good leadership, including Judd, whose performance as captain escaped scrutiny relative to the criticism heaped upon others. They both have their limitations, but most of all have struggled with the burden that a number 1 pick creates. Neither of them had good games, but they are the best we have for now and will bounce back.

Why did they not have a good game?  That's the question we're all sick of asking. Why?  They are seasoned veterans.  James Sicily was playing his 5th game on Sunday and kicked 4 telling goals.  When was the last time we had anyone who kicked 4 thumping goals on the run from on or near 50?  ... 3 goals?  ... 2 goals?  Where do Hawthorn find these players?  It's unbelievable. I'm not having a go at you Vivian, not at all. I really enjoy your posts.  Apparently, when BB was explaining some routine match day ploys over the summer, some senior players were taken aback at the sheer novelty and audacity of the ideas. They'd never been exposed to anything like it before.  Good Lord.  We have been so lost in the wilderness for so long it's not funny.

Having a style of play highly dependent upon fast accurate ball movement is going to challenge many players, and mistakes are going to happen. Sides like sydney are going to capitalise as they did. They looked awfully strong in the middle, and once they got it forward scored heavily.

And touhy proved the old theory that a feature in the paper before the game leads to a bad performance.

Another question is, do we have the right team to exploit a style of play dependent upon fast accurate ball movement?  We are, and have been for 10 years, the worst kicking side in the league.  The irony is that the game is called football.

Another question is, do we have the right team to exploit a style of play dependent upon fast accurate ball movement?  We are, and have been for 10 years, the worst kicking side in the league.  The irony is that the game is called football.

;)

@ Carrots

Cant argue with any of your last few posts re Murphy and Gibbs as they are spot on.

I dont get all the potting of Murphy and Gibbs. Both have been stalwarts in a shambles of a club for a long time and this takes its toll. Both were thrown in the deep end in their first season as teenagers and have had to battle in a poor environment replete with poor standards and low expectations. Neither have enjoyed the benefits of good leadership, including Judd, whose performance as captain escaped scrutiny relative to the criticism heaped upon others. They both have their limitations, but most of all have struggled with the burden that a number 1 pick creates. Neither of them had good games, but they are the best we have for now and will bounce back.

Are you saying Judd was a poor leader and that has contributed to Murphy and Gibbs lack of effort?
Really? I would have thought they looked happy to let Judd do most of the grunt work. Let's be honest, neither are Sam Mitchell types and never will be, the problem is nor are they that good on the outside.
Picking and choosing when they attack the footy is their first option, not the hawthorn or Sydney like attack on the footy.
If they had elite skills under pressure, or had blistering speed or kicked 3 or 4 goals every now and then, well great. But..... we just don't get value for money.
I really don't care what number they were drafted, it's what other players in the comp do on much smaller contracts that bothers me.
Stop making excuses for them, if they don't provide value move them on.

Are you saying Judd was a poor leader and that has contributed to Murphy and Gibbs lack of effort?
Really? I would have thought they looked happy to let Judd do most of the grunt work. Let's be honest, neither are Sam Mitchell types and never will be, the problem is nor are they that good on the outside.
Picking and choosing when they attack the footy is their first option, not the hawthorn or Sydney like attack on the footy.
If they had elite skills under pressure, or had blistering speed or kicked 3 or 4 goals every now and then, well great. But..... we just don't get value for money.
I really don't care what number they were drafted, it's what other players in the comp do on much smaller contracts that bothers me.
Stop making excuses for them, if they don't provide value move them on.

yep. Succinctly put JH.

Are you saying Judd was a poor leader and that has contributed to Murphy and Gibbs lack of effort?
Really? I would have thought they looked happy to let Judd do most of the grunt work. Let's be honest, neither are Sam Mitchell types and never will be, the problem is nor are they that good on the outside.
Picking and choosing when they attack the footy is their first option, not the hawthorn or Sydney like attack on the footy.
If they had elite skills under pressure, or had blistering speed or kicked 3 or 4 goals every now and then, well great. But..... we just don't get value for money.
I really don't care what number they were drafted, it's what other players in the comp do on much smaller contracts that bothers me.
Stop making excuses for them, if they don't provide value move them on.

In a nutshell. They are not up to being the best players at any club yet they are paid to be our best. I do not think either Gibbs or Murphy stopped us from getting beaten by more on the weekend so what are they doing out there? Move them on, get more early picks, it will most probably not affect our performance anyway.

I understand I've been critical of Murph over the years so many of you would be rolling your eyes etc but I've always said, I call it how I see it. I have backed Gibbs in throughout his whole career (just go to his trade thread I was the only one sticking up for him) but as another poster put, four coaches later, he is weaker than ever. Must trade for perhaps Adelaide's or Port's first rounder.

In a nutshell. They are not up to being the best players at any club yet they are paid to be our best. I do not think either Gibbs or Murphy stopped us from getting beaten by more on the weekend so what are they doing out there? Move them on, get more early picks, it will most probably not affect our performance anyway.

I understand I've been critical of Murph over the years so many of you would be rolling your eyes etc but I've always said, I call it how I see it. I have backed Gibbs in throughout his whole career (just go to his trade thread I was the only one sticking up for him) but as another poster put, four coaches later, he is weaker than ever. Must trade for perhaps Adelaide's or Port's first rounder.

If you were the recruiting manager at the crows or port would you trade your first round pick for Gibbs on current form? They've both already got good midfield depth who are all currently playing better.
Kerridge couldn't even get a proper run at the Crows - what value would Gibbs be to them?

If you were the recruiting manager at the crows or port would you trade your first round pick for Gibbs on current form? They've both already got good midfield depth who are all currently playing better.
Kerridge couldn't even get a proper run at the Crows - what value would Gibbs be to them?

I'm just hoping one of them is dumb enough to give away a late first rounder, he could provide them with polish, or they may at least think that. You have to ask yourself if he is as good as many on here say, surely he's worth say pick #12?

I'm just hoping one of them is dumb enough to give away a late first rounder, he could provide them with polish, or they may at least think that. You have to ask yourself if he is as good as many on here say, surely he's worth say pick #12?

Gibbs is a skilled player who would no doubt thrive in a team stronger than ours where the need to do a lot of grunt work would be a lot lower for him. He could emerge as cream on the cake for such a team. I'm sure we could get a good deal for him if we wanted to.

Are you saying Judd was a poor leader and that has contributed to Murphy and Gibbs lack of effort?
Really? I would have thought they looked happy to let Judd do most of the grunt work. Let's be honest, neither are Sam Mitchell types and never will be, the problem is nor are they that good on the outside.
Picking and choosing when they attack the footy is their first option, not the hawthorn or Sydney like attack on the footy.
If they had elite skills under pressure, or had blistering speed or kicked 3 or 4 goals every now and then, well great. But..... we just don't get value for money.
I really don't care what number they were drafted, it's what other players in the comp do on much smaller contracts that bothers me.
Stop making excuses for them, if they don't provide value move them on.

Only Murphy and Gibbs can contribute to the effort they make, like any player.  My point is that Judd was a brilliant footballer, one of the best I have seen, but he often played footy a bit like a cricketer  - perhaps more as an individual in a team game.  This is no slight on Judd at all - it is who he is, and given his extraordinary ability, one could put him in any side and he would be a class apart.  But he was just one player, no matter how talented and no matter how good, this cannot make up for a huge deficit in the quality of the team and organisation as a whole.

Carlton have suffered from, to paraphrase the coach, a lack of leadership density.  Murphy and Gibbs joined an organization as 18-19 year olds that was utterly lacking leadership and a culture of performance and continuous improvement.  Judd couldn't change much of this, and he did alot of heavy lifting, especially during Ratten's time as coach.

My view is not attempting to make excuses for players, rather understand how the dynamics of a team may have affected players over the years, especially in the context of impacting young inexperienced men just out of school. 

Nevertheless, both Murphy and Gibbs are good footballers, sometimes great.  They are what they are and I hope the club can get the best out of them.  Moreover, the team as a whole, if it lifts just a little as a whole will make more of a difference than either Gibbs and Murphy playing the kind of 35 possession 3 goal 8 tackle games that we wish they were capable of.  

If you were the recruiting manager at the crows or port would you trade your first round pick for Gibbs on current form? They've both already got good midfield depth who are all currently playing better.
Kerridge couldn't even get a proper run at the Crows - what value would Gibbs be to them?

Gibbs and Murphy would add value as outside mids or fwds at a team already full of grunt and leadership in the midfield. They offer us zero in this dept hence why they would have trade value.

Gibbs would kill it at the crows as an outside runner and finisher feeding off Sloane, Crouch, Thompson etc.

Gibbs would kill it at the crows as an outside runner and finisher feeding off Sloane, Crouch, Thompson etc.

Absolutely! Look at the reverse situation with Kerridge - he would be finding more pressure playing for us that he would have dreamed possible at the Crows. I think it was well illustrated v. the Tiggers as he tired in the 4Q.

yes  LP you have heard all before .I started saying we are to slow when we recruited brock maclean and we  had  carrazo,robbo. ellard allthe same pace now fwd to 2016 and i think we have the same situation.

I'm just hoping one of them is dumb enough to give away a late first rounder, he could provide them with polish, or they may at least think that. You have to ask yourself if he is as good as many on here say, surely he's worth say pick #12?

I've been reading this thread with some interest.  I actually agree we should put Gibbs on the trade table at the end of the year.  It would be a radical move because he is probably our most gifted ball user in a team that isn't blessed with that type of player, but still worth while doing i think.  Port Adelaide IMO will finish with pick 5 or 6 and I think they would give up that for Gibbs in a heartbeat.  Kenny will think they can still win a flag with a bit of extra cream on the cake.  If we finish bottom (which I think we will unfortunately) with only 2 to 3 wins we would have an argument for a priority pick.   This means we could have picks 1,2 5 and 20 and if you throw in a free agent- say from the bombers (hurley, hibbard etc), it would leave us very competitive in the draft.  I would use picks 1+2 on the best key forwards in the draft (ala Hawks with Buddy and Roughead), pick 5 gets us a great mid (ala Lewis) then trade pick 20 with perhaps Levi to Fremantle to get someone like Mayne and we should be off and running.  

Unless he has a big reversal in form Gibbs is pretty unlikely to attract a top 10 draft pick - the catch 22 being if his form improves why would we trade him?
On present performance I'd say we'd be lucky if norf or hawthorn offer their first picks to us for him at the end of the year.

We got Geelong 's first rounder for Hendo so anything is possible  - even if Geelong rates themselves for this year.

We got Geelong 's first rounder for Hendo so anything is possible  - even if Geelong rates themselves for this year.

Yup, Gibbs is ten times the player Hendo is!

We got Geelong 's first rounder for Hendo so anything is possible  - even if Geelong rates themselves for this year.

...and we might bundle that up with something.

I still don't think we'll get rid of Gibbs. Well just look to put better players around him.

...and we might bundle that up with something.

I still don't think we'll get rid of Gibbs. Well just look to put better players around him.

Isn't that our problem though? We need to build around Cripps, not Gibbs.

Isn't that our problem though? We need to build around Cripps, not Gibbs.

Maybe, but I rate Gibbs a bit higher probably.

The other problem are.
He's contracted.
MLG and McKay said he wouldnt be shopped.
I'm not sure we'd get a whole lot.

Stranger things have happened though. I would never have expected Goddard, DalSanto, Griffen, Cooney, Shaw, Thomas etc to change clubs once upon a time.

Maybe, but I rate Gibbs a bit higher probably.

Mate I've always rated him VERY highly but to still produce the inconsistencies he does at this stage of his career under a fourth coach.....meh.

Mate I've always rated him VERY highly but to still produce the inconsistencies he does at this stage of his career under a fourth coach.....meh.

You know he's going to kill it this week don't you? ;D

You know he's going to kill it this week don't you? ;D

It's been the plan all along. :P

You know he's going to kill it this week don't you? ;D

He will tag Ablett all game and still rack up a heap of easy possessions. :o

Gibbs can get it 40 times and have little impact on games.....his possies are usually short kicks across ground or behind the ball.
Does his most damaging work forward IMO where he can set others up and kick a goal himself...around the ground he just doesnt hurt opposing teams.
Bolton needs to play him forward more and use him like Essendon do with Goddard...the latter can get cheap easy kicks and rack up the stats but when he goes forward he is dangerous because he kicks long and straight.
We cant kick a goal to save ourselves yet Gibbs is never forward...????

Gibbs can get it 40 times and have little impact on games.....his possies are usually short kicks across ground or behind the ball.
Does his most damaging work forward IMO where he can set others up and kick a goal himself...around the ground he just doesnt hurt opposing teams.
Bolton needs to play him forward more and use him like Essendon do with Goddard...the latter can get cheap easy kicks and rack up the stats but when he goes forward he is dangerous because he kicks long and straight.
We cant kick a goal to save ourselves yet Gibbs is never forward...????

x10 EB1.

Gibbs can get it 40 times and have little impact on games.....his possies are usually short kicks across ground or behind the ball.
Does his most damaging work forward IMO where he can set others up and kick a goal himself...around the ground he just doesnt hurt opposing teams.
Bolton needs to play him forward more and use him like Essendon do with Goddard...the latter can get cheap easy kicks and rack up the stats but when he goes forward he is dangerous because he kicks long and straight.
We cant kick a goal to save ourselves yet Gibbs is never forward...????

Does he like the attention he gets from defenders EB1, or does he go into his shell?

Should we free him up on a wing to make him the 3rd man at many contests, I suspect he would thrive in those conditions just like Goddard.

Our strong suite is not playing players in roles that fully exploit their natural instincts or talents. Rather we try to force fit them into roles they may not relish or cannot perform at their full potential. Old habits die hard but we must move away from this approach. Hopefully the new regime can do this.

Gibbs can get it 40 times and have little impact on games.....his possies are usually short kicks across ground or behind the ball.
Does his most damaging work forward IMO where he can set others up and kick a goal himself...around the ground he just doesnt hurt opposing teams.
Bolton needs to play him forward more and use him like Essendon do with Goddard...the latter can get cheap easy kicks and rack up the stats but when he goes forward he is dangerous because he kicks long and straight.
We cant kick a goal to save ourselves yet Gibbs is never forward...????

Too weak overhead to play forward and not quick enough when the ball hits the deck. Not to mention he is fumble city.

Gibbs can get it 40 times and have little impact on games.....his possies are usually short kicks across ground or behind the ball.
Does his most damaging work forward IMO where he can set others up and kick a goal himself...around the ground he just doesnt hurt opposing teams.
Bolton needs to play him forward more and use him like Essendon do with Goddard...the latter can get cheap easy kicks and rack up the stats but when he goes forward he is dangerous because he kicks long and straight.
We cant kick a goal to save ourselves yet Gibbs is never forward...????

Yep. Has good goal smarts and skills.

Too weak overhead to play forward and not quick enough when the ball hits the deck. Not to mention he is fumble city.

Weak overhead?

Not sure i've ever seen the guy in a contested marking situation? Have you? Hard to believe he's get outmarked by many of comparable size.....

Weak overhead?

Not sure i've ever seen the guy in a contested marking situation? Have you? Hard to believe he's get outmarked by many of comparable size.....

Marked well and often when playing as sweeper under Ratten. Generally as the third man in the contest though.

Watched Gibbs kick six for Glenelg playing at Full Forward.....led well for the ball into space and kicked straight.
I dont expect him to be contesting in pack marking situations but taking a few on the chest, going back and slotting them through is something he is capable of IMO.

A couple of goals each week from Gibbs on a regular basis and a couple given away is going to make him a more valuable player than getting 30 plus cheapies between centre and half back..Dosnt mean he still cant run on the ball but just spend more time forward than usual......Gold Coast are playing with really only one tall up forward in Lynch and surrounding him with smart medium size and small players ...having some extra class down there might help Casboult too..

Watched Gibbs kick six for Glenelg playing at Full Forward.....led well for the ball into space and kicked straight.
I dont expect him to be contesting in pack marking situations but taking a few on the chest, going back and slotting them through is something he is capable of IMO.

Worth a try as a leading forward.
One of his real assets is his ability to find space.

trade gibbs after rd2 ,it is funny how he had his best season wen contract up for renewal.My vote is to trade him if we benefit even if has a good season TRADE.The ferals traded 2 shaws ,didak daisy all fav at the club,

Worth a try as a leading forward.
One of his real assets is his ability to find space.

So that's how you justify squibbing the contest ? He's not soft, he's just trying to find space.

Just kidding.

Really though, is Gibbs any harder or softer than someone like Pendles ? I don't see the latter doing anything harder than Gibbs.

So that's how you justify squibbing the contest ? He's not soft, he's just trying to find space.

;D
He's a space-man ;)

Weak overhead?

Not sure i've ever seen the guy in a contested marking situation? Have you? Hard to believe he's get outmarked by many of comparable size.....

Have you seen him sit under a high ball and try and mark it? Did you seen him drop the easy mark on Sunday because he was running backwards and didn't like it? He doesn't like the footsteps, he doesn't like not knowing what is coming at him, and he doesn't have great hands anyway. On the lead is a different story.

So that's how you justify squibbing the contest ? He's not soft, he's just trying to find space.

Just kidding.

Really though, is Gibbs any harder or softer than someone like Pendles ? I don't see the latter doing anything harder than Gibbs.

He doesn't have to, he's that damn good. Gibbs thinks he is also that damn good that he doesn't have to, but he's not that damn good.

Pendlebury and Gibbs are so far apart it's just not funny.

The role you'd want Gibbs playing would be Brad Pearce type role.
Lead and mark.

A foil for our big key forwards....oops I forgot :(

The role you'd want Gibbs playing would be Brad Pearce type role.
Lead and mark.

A foil for our big key forwards....oops I forgot :(

Doesn't have the explosive speed of a Pearce to put a space on his opponent so the footsteps will still be a factor.

Doesn't have the explosive speed of a Pearce to put a space on his opponent so the footsteps will still be a factor.

That's true...but he does have the ability to lose a player.

Of course that may not be the case with close checking defenders...and you sometimes wonder whether he gets that freedom in the mid-field because other sides don't feel he hurts them enough to man up on him.

That's true...but he does have the ability to lose a player.

Of course that may not be the case with close checking defenders...and you sometimes wonder whether he gets that freedom in the mid-field because other sides don't feel he hurts them enough to man up on him.

That was Lance's strength but he was very strong overhead and had some courage.

Re the midfield I agree, if Gibbs was that damaging he would wear a tag.

McLean was pretty good at getting space inside F50, pace had nothing to do with it, smarts were far more important!

oops!

McLean was pretty good at getting space inside F50, pace had nothing to do with it, smarts were far more important!

Meh....not the extent that you'd consider him a threat. As I posted earlier, a player of the ilk of Lance Whitnall could get away with it, not many others could.

Meh....not the extent that you'd consider him a threat. As I posted earlier, a player of the ilk of Lance Whitnall could get away with it, not many others could.

Gotta agree with LP on this one, McLean seriously worked on his deficiency (ie lack of speed) and got himself supremely fit. His footy smarts did the rest for him and were amongst the best IMO. When watching games live, I often found myself saying "how did he get there?" about Dirty, much like I used to with Lance.

Gotta agree with LP on this one, McLean seriously worked on his deficiency (ie lack of speed) and got himself supremely fit. His footy smarts did the rest for him and were amongst the best IMO. When watching games live, I often found myself saying "how did he get there?" about Dirty, much like I used to with Lance.

Totally agree. When a bloke hasn't the leg speed he really needs other tricks and nothing beats superior fitness and reading of the game, and Brock eventually got the fitness and was always good at reading the game.

I'm afraid I was not a great fan of Brock. Yes he had the footy smarts at times and occasionally did good things, but the number of times I saw him puffing away bravely 10 meters behind his man who was busily tearing us a new one were too many IMO.

Having said that I'll agree he was poorly treated in the end.

Totally agree. When a bloke hasn't the leg speed he really needs other tricks and nothing beats superior fitness and reading of the game, and Brock eventually got the fitness and was always good at reading the game.

I found Brock's biggest problem was our boys club mentality refusing to make use of him.

I don't know how many times I saw Brock on the fat side of the ground 20m clear of opposition heading through half forward when our Midfield/HBF Nutters kicked to a solo Betts or solo Garlett battling a 2 on 1 in the pocket. We took the 10% chance of scoring option and ignored the 30% chance of scoring option almost every time!

But I suppose that is how I developed my theory that we are the worst ball users in the competition, and it has been happening since the days of Pagan and it hasn't changed yet! :o

I found Brock's biggest problem was our boys club mentality refusing to make use of him.

I don't know how many times I saw Brock on the fat side of the ground 20m clear of opposition heading through half forward when our Midfield/HBF Nutters kicked to a solo Betts or solo Garlett battling a 2 on 1 in the pocket. We took the 10% chance of scoring option and ignored the 30% chance of scoring option almost every time!

But I suppose that is how I developed my theory that we are the worst ball users in the competition, and it has been happening since the days of Pagan and it hasn't changed yet! :o

Fair point that about the bad ball users. Its a strange one really, we seem to have always had a majority of ball butchers on the list during every regime (for the want of a better term) with a sprinkling of those that were good. And here's where it gets weird, during the Pagan era, Murphy, Gibbs were starting out, Simmo as well and they seemed to use the ball well and you thought "there's light at the end of the tunnel, they will be elite with ball in hand eventually. We will weed out the crap and they will lead the charge. Murph, Gibbs and Simmon were around in the Ratten era, the MM era and now the BB and they haven't become elite (in the true sense). Murph especially can be a shocker. Simmo is getting worse by the week. So after all these years, its still our achilles heal whether it be around the ground, or in front of goal. Its amazing how well other teams have covered or masked their structural deficiencies with good to excellent disposal.

Murphy's kicking has always been just average unless he's in acres of space, likewise Gibbs but that goes for pretty much every other footballer other than Jason Tutt.

Murphy's kicking has always been just average unless he's in acres of space, likewise Gibbs but that goes for pretty much every other footballer other than Jason Tutt.

In 2011, the AFL Coaches voted him the best player in the game, he looked like he was going to explode and his disposal was bloody good. Between form and injury, he has gone backwards since. Perhaps at 24 years of age, he was at the peak of his powers.

In 2011, the AFL Coaches voted him the best player in the game, he looked like he was going to explode and his disposal was bloody good. Between form and injury, he has gone backwards since. Perhaps at 24 years of age, he was at the peak of his powers.

One season wonder? I agree he was enormous in 2011.

The role you'd want Gibbs playing would be Brad Pearce type role.
Lead and mark.

A foil for our big key forwards....oops I forgot :(

Those were the days where we could pick up so-called average players from other clubs and have Parko turn them into stars.

Bolton, like the coaches before him, is using Gibbs to plug gaps.  It would be great to see him used as a forward/midfielder but it's not going to happen.

Bolton, like the coaches before him, is using Gibbs to plug gaps.  It would be great to see him used as a forward/midfielder but it's not going to happen.

Gibbsy, the god of gaps? Haven't heard that daft furphy for a while. The idea that coaches sacrificed Gibbs' career as a gun onballer to play him as a loose man down back with a mandate to kick backwards as often as possible is just ridiculous. What gaps is he currently filling that are preventing him from being a crack goal-kicking midfielder?

Gibbs reputation - as some on here  see it - owes more to Bruce McAverney than his on-field exploits.

Really though, is Gibbs any harder or softer than someone like Pendles ? I don't see the latter doing anything harder than Gibbs.

Just back onto this, I stand corrected Paul. My mate on FB reckons he hasn't put his head over the ball since Round 21 2011. Pretty specific stuff lol.

Just back onto this, I stand corrected Paul. My mate on FB reckons he hasn't put his head over the ball since Round 21 2011. Pretty specific stuff lol.

Who your mate, Pendles or Gibbs hasn't?

Pendles. He's a Pies man.