Carlton Supporters Club

INS : Jamison, Carrazzo, Warnock, Ellard, Kreuzer, Tutt, Simpson, Barker 
OUTS : Buckley, Boekhorst, Whiley, Smith, Graham, Wood, Jaksch, Malthouse

Line-Up

B : Tuohy, Jamison, Docherty
HB : Simpson, Rowe, Everitt
C : Carrazzo, Gibbs, Curnow
HF : Armfield, Kreuzer, Thomas,
F : Tutt, Jones, Casboult 
R : Warnock, Judd, Murphy

I/C : Ellard, Bell, Cripps, Walker
 

toss those vegetables how you please.
cameron to kick another bag - 10 goals down by half time

I would have been thinking we might see Kreuzer, Menzel, Simpson and Jamo in if fit to go.
OUTS: Smith, Buckley, Wood, Rowe.

We have nothing to be gained by playing the new chums, drop them all permanently to the seconds for the rest of the season so they can form strong bonds and win the VFL premiership. They can work hard on their fitness levels & body-shape in the gym too.

Meanwhile, the older more seasoned players can slug it out in the AFL and we'll still get the same results anyway but not poison the newbies with poor attitudes & efforts.   

We have nothing to be gained by playing the new chums, drop them all permanently to the seconds for the rest of the season so they can form strong bonds and win the VFL premiership. They can work hard on their fitness levels & body-shape in the gym too.

Meanwhile, the older more seasoned players can slug it out in the AFL and we'll still get the same results anyway but not poison the newbies with poor attitudes & efforts.  

You do know this is the exact opposite of everything you've said since i joined this forum?

INS : Jamison, Carrazzo, Warnock, Ellard, Kreuzer, Tutt, Simpson, Barker 
OUTS : Buckley, Boekhorst, Whiley, Smith, Graham, Wood, Jaksch, Malthouse

Line-Up

B : Tuohy, Jamison, Docherty
HB : Simpson, Rowe, Everitt
C : Carrazzo, Gibbs, Curnow
HF : Armfield, Kreuzer, Thomas,
F : Tutt, Jones, Casboult 
R : Warnock, Judd, Murphy

I/C : Ellard, Bell, Cripps, Walker

No room for Yarran?

INS : Jamison, Carrazzo, Warnock, Ellard, Kreuzer, Tutt, Simpson, Barker 
OUTS : Buckley, Boekhorst, Whiley, Smith, Graham, Wood, Jaksch, Malthouse

Line-Up

B : Tuohy, Jamison, Docherty
HB : Simpson, Rowe, Everitt
C : Carrazzo, Gibbs, Curnow
HF : Armfield, Kreuzer, Thomas,
F : Tutt, Jones, Casboult 
R : Warnock, Judd, Murphy

I/C : Ellard, Bell, Cripps, Walker

Laidley for Malthouse.

Laidley for Malthouse.

I just realised that I named the wrong assistant coach, Laidley to do it instead of Barker.

INS : Jamison, Carrazzo, Warnock, Ellard, Kreuzer, Tutt, Simpson, Barker 
OUTS : Buckley, Boekhorst, Whiley, Smith, Graham, Wood, Jaksch, Malthouse

If Ellard and Warnock come in we are going nowhere, they have been weighed, measured and found wanting!
 
The feel good selections should have died today!

We've been the good citizens of the AFL for too long now, EFC have showed us the way, cheats, spuds and duds but 70K members!

Cameron to kick 8, mumford to maul us in the ruck, shiel and co to own the midfield.

Cameron to kick 8, mumford to maul us in the ruck, shiel and co to own the midfield.

Not it will be some 4th gamer who kills us.

INS : Jamison, Carrazzo, Warnock, Ellard, Kreuzer, Tutt, Simpson, Barker 
OUTS : Buckley, Boekhorst, Whiley, Smith, Graham, Wood, Jaksch, Malthouse

Line-Up

B : Tuohy, Jamison, Docherty
HB : Simpson, Rowe, Everitt
C : Carrazzo, Gibbs, Curnow
HF : Armfield, Kreuzer, Thomas,
F : Tutt, Jones, Casboult 
R : Warnock, Judd, Murphy

I/C : Ellard, Bell, Cripps, Walker

I don't think you will get all of your wishes, Sheik, but some definitely.
Jamo will come in if he is fit.
Carrazzo will come in if he is fit. We will need his ability in the middle of the ground.
Simpson will come in if he is fit. We need his run from defence.
Yarran will be back. He has done his time.

Whiley will go back. He hasn't had a good 2 weeks.
Buckley and Boekhorst will go back. They had real opportunities today and could not deliver.
I think Smith will go back, but this was his best game by some margin. He may survive, but I really think he needs more time in the VFL.

I can't see us changing our rucks significantly. Warnock is a maybe, but Kreuzer needs time. Wood is doing his best, even though we know it isn't what we really want.
I can't see Ellard being promoted as he didn't appear to do a lot down at Frankston. Holman has a better chance. Tutt did OK at Frankston, so he can't be ruled out yet.

I think Watson must be some sort of chance. He did as well as he could in the conditions while Jones disappointed again.

However, I have demonstrated often enough that I do not have the Match Committee's Ear. Otherwise our team this week would have been very different.

As far as the ruck combo goes, first choice would be Kreuzer/Casboult and second choice would be Wood/Casboult. Forget Warnock now - he is what he is and he is not what we need.

I don't think you will get all of your wishes, Sheik, but some definitely.
Jamo will come in if he is fit.
Carrazzo will come in if he is fit. We will need his ability in the middle of the ground.
Simpson will come in if he is fit. We need his run from defence.
Yarran will be back. He has done his time.

Whiley will go back. He hasn't had a good 2 weeks.
Buckley and Boekhorst will go back. They had real opportunities today and could not deliver.
I think Smith will go back, but this was his best game by some margin. He may survive, but I really think he needs more time in the VFL.

I can't see us changing our rucks significantly. Warnock is a maybe, but Kreuzer needs time. Wood is doing his best, even though we know it isn't what we really want.
I can't see Ellard being promoted as he didn't appear to do a lot down at Frankston. Holman has a better chance. Tutt did OK at Frankston, so he can't be ruled out yet.

I think Watson must be some sort of chance. He did as well as he could in the conditions while Jones disappointed again.

However, I have demonstrated often enough that I do not have the Match Committee's Ear. Otherwise our team this week would have been very different.

Yes, Watson for Jones. Watson hasn't done alot wrong since going forward and deserves a shot. He might be happier in the VFL right now though...lol!

I'd persist with at least some of the young blokes. The older blokes should be the one's taking the heat. We're phuked so we might as well give the younger blokes more time. Although they might be praying to go back to the VFL too where they can get a winning feeling...lol.

Wood's not in great touch but Kreuzer needs more time in the VFL. Casboult's been doing a great job on the ball, why he was ever dropped I don't know. Did a great job as a CHF too today. He's alot better there than as a deep forward. Suited to having the freedom to run around.

Carrazzo, Simmo, Yarran and Jammo will likely come in. Jammo may even come in for Rowe giving Jaksch more experience in the key position. As i said, may as well, nothing to lose anymore.

We have nothing to be gained by playing the new chums, drop them all permanently to the seconds for the rest of the season so they can form strong bonds and win the VFL premiership. They can work hard on their fitness levels & body-shape in the gym too.

Meanwhile, the older more seasoned players can slug it out in the AFL and we'll still get the same results anyway but not poison the newbies with poor attitudes & efforts.  

Sounds silly
Might work ;)

The 'future' need to grow as a group....play them together.... firsts or seconds
Make Cripps the captain of "Carlton A" :D

Jones is a wingman, nothing more and nothing less, the sooner the club and the kid realise that the better off they will both be!

IN- Kreuzer, Yarran, Simpson, Jamison,

Out - Jones, Whiley, Boekhorst, Walker

Hopefully Mick gets the arse so Graham gets a full game.

Jones is a wingman, nothing more and nothing less, the sooner the club and the kid realise that the better off they will both be!

Interesting observation. Could be something in that. I watched the VFL grand final last year and Jones just about won the GF off his own performance and he seemed to be roaming all over the shop.

Jones is a wingman, nothing more and nothing less, the sooner the club and the kid realise that the better off they will both be!

Too slow, not agile enough, not enough endurance and doesn't hold enough marks to be a wingman.

I'd try him in the backline . . . in the NBs.

Surely it's time to drop some "name" players?

Gibbs and Walker have done SFA.

It's too easy dropping the usual suspects.

Surely it's time to drop some "name" players?

Gibbs and Walker have done SFA.

It's too easy dropping the usual suspects.

I think we may have reached that point JH. Otherwise it's maybe just a case of repeatedly shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Surely it's time to drop some "name" players?

Gibbs and Walker have done SFA.

It's too easy dropping the usual suspects.

Gibbs had his best game for the year. He probably won't be dropped after that. But he does need to lift his game by a LONG way. He showed last year what he can do when his mind is right.
Walker is very ripe for dropping. He started well enough in his first game back, but has been getting steadily worse. he needs to get some responsibility, some confidence and some desire in his game.
Curnow probably saved himself. This was his best effort by a long way and more like the domination he had over his prey in previous years.

I would have started Thomas in the NB's. he is the one who has lacked match fitness and touch. He was OK, and will probably retain his spot, but there is considerable improvement required in his game.

Whiley and Smith will probably make way for Simpson and Carrazzo, who are both much better players at this point. I'd like to keep Graham in the seniors: he deserves a go. I'd even give him a go at the small forward role, one we are especially poor at presently.

Jones I've already discussed. He has had his arc. Time for the NB's.

The point of my team changes was to get all of the young guys out of the seniors and into the seconds, kept safe there without the possibility of being corrupted by some of the imposters who strut around in the firsts.

I thought Gibbs was pretty good.

I thought Gibbs was pretty good.

At what?
He was serviceable... for a 2nd year player maybe but for a B&F player of his caliber we demand so much more  :o

I thought Gibbs was pretty good.

Cripps has shown better form and leadership qualities in his six games that Gibbs has shown in his whole career.  He is Carlton's Brendan Goddard.

Surely it's time to drop some "name" players?

Gibbs and Walker have done SFA.

It's too easy dropping the usual suspects.

Gibbs "unfortunately" did enough yesterday to avoid that but came back into the side way too early after injury and needs alot more time in the NBs. Then he needs to be put in his best position. We continue to play blokes in their worst positions.

I presume you mean Walker needs to go back to the NBs Jim?

Anyway, I think Gibbs needs a jolt. He is one of our senior and supposedly more talented players who needs to be leading the way for the young guys. Cruising along playing below your potential is a very bad example to be setting. He needs to be dropped until he can show his best a lot more consistently - playing your absolute best at all times is the message that needs to be sent to everyone and is a key one in developing our young guys.

When I was a young bloke, I would come home hoarse from yelling at the footy.

Yesterday, I, together with my wife and my oldest son and our nearly 5 year old grandson, went to the game. It was his first ever game.
I came home, voice completely intact.

I did not raise a whimper throughout the whole game. My grandson sat on his seat like a 25 year old, cheering Carlton Goals. Then, when it looked like we were stuffed with about 10 minutes to go, he looked up at me and said, "I don't want to watch any more, can we go home"?

We actually stayed until the end.

In my more than 60 years of supporting this Club, I have never felt more dispirited about the prospects of any success in the near future, as I did yesterday, and today.

Yes, we have had a tough run since the salary cap breaches, fines and penalties. But I knew when that happened that it would take years to, dare I say it, "rebuild".


What we have now, is a President, passionate about the Club, but with no idea how to run it, supported, and I use the term loosely, by a Board that is divided within itself, and has got no clue how to get us out of this malaise.

What sort of message does a President think the players receive, when they are told after round two, "we are rebuilding"?

How many players are training through the week, and playing games, mentally shot because they have got no idea, whether they are contracted or not, if they have a future at this Club?

How can the Club plan for any future, if the players, the Club, the management and most importantly the supporters, have got no idea, who will coach the Club and who the coaching staff will be?

Under the conditions that I have detailed above, Why should Henderson or Kruezer re-sign with the Club? I wouldn't if I was them.

What I saw yesterday, disgusted me.

I happened to be sitting with like-minded Carlton  supporters, none of whom I knew.

They kept calling Gibbs, "the Princess". A name well deserved.
They said, that Murphy isn't a captains shoelace. Another term well deserved. ONE POSSESSION IN THE LAST QUARTER, AND GIBBS TWO!!
WE all admired Tom Bells work ethic. We admired Sam Docherty, and Touheys efforts, and YES, even though we all believe that Sam Rowe is a spud, in fact one bl;oke kept yelling out "go spud", we admired some of his efforts and remarked how he had improved over the last two weeks.

We loved Levi's efforts and commitment, and agreed that Liam Jones just doesn't have it.

We all agreed, that Clem Smith and  Bokehorst are out of their depth, and applauded the fact that the idiot who thought Bokehoerst was a great selection at pick 19, is gone.

We were very disappointed with Dylan Buckley, and Mark Whiley. Walker, was an absolute disgrace to the Jumper.

BUT WE LOVED, CRIPPS.

Most of all, we could not understand why Mick perseveres with a game plan, which insists that the players bring the ball around the boundary line, rather than take the game on and go up the centre of the ground.

At the end of the game, we noted that only 20,000 had bothered to turn up and that there were tumbleweeds blowing in the section where Carlton members would normally sit. 

I can't bring myself to go to another game. So I will sit at home and watch on Fox Footy.

I have never felt so bereft of hope about MY club, at anytime over the last 60 years, as I do now.

I await with great anticipation, the President,  the Board, the CEO,  SOMEONE, ANYONE in authority at the club, to call a press conference or send a letter to members giving us a clear unambiguous direction in which the Club is heading.

I have a feeling, it will be a long, long, wait. ??? ??? ???

What someone stand up and show leadership... give me a break  ::)

When I was a young bloke, I would come home hoarse from yelling at the footy.

Yesterday, I, together with my wife and my oldest son and our nearly 5 year old grandson, went to the game. It was his first ever game.
I came home, voice completely intact.

I did not raise a whimper throughout the whole game. My grandson sat on his seat like a 25 year old, cheering Carlton Goals. Then, when it looked like we were stuffed with about 10 minutes to go, he looked up at me and said, "I don't want to watch any more, can we go home"?

We actually stayed until the end.

In my more than 60 years of supporting this Club, I have never felt more dispirited about the prospects of any success in the near future, as I did yesterday, and today.

Yes, we have had a tough run since the salary cap breaches, fines and penalties. But I knew when that happened that it would take years to, dare I say it, "rebuild".


What we have now, is a President, passionate about the Club, but with no idea how to run it, supported, and I use the term loosely, by a Board that is divided within itself, and has got no clue how to get us out of this malaise.

What sort of message does a President think the players receive, when they are told after round two, "we are rebuilding"?

How many players are training through the week, and playing games, mentally shot because they have got no idea, whether they are contracted or not, if they have a future at this Club?

How can the Club plan for any future, if the players, the Club, the management and most importantly the supporters, have got no idea, who will coach the Club and who the coaching staff will be?

Under the conditions that I have detailed above, Why should Henderson or Kruezer re-sign with the Club? I wouldn't if I was them.

What I saw yesterday, disgusted me.

I happened to be sitting with like-minded Carlton  supporters, none of whom I knew.

They kept calling Gibbs, "the Princess". A name well deserved.
They said, that Murphy isn't a captains shoelace. Another term well deserved. ONE POSSESSION IN THE LAST QUARTER, AND GIBBS TWO!!
WE all admired Tom Bells work ethic. We admired Sam Docherty, and Touheys efforts, and YES, even though we all believe that Sam Rowe is a spud, in fact one bl;oke kept yelling out "go spud", we admired some of his efforts and remarked how he had improved over the last two weeks.

We loved Levi's efforts and commitment, and agreed that Liam Jones just doesn't have it.

We all agreed, that Clem Smith and  Bokehorst are out of their depth, and applauded the fact that the idiot who thought Bokehoerst was a great selection at pick 19, is gone.

We were very disappointed with Dylan Buckley, and Mark Whiley. Walker, was an absolute disgrace to the Jumper.

BUT WE LOVED, CRIPPS.

Most of all, we could not understand why Mick perseveres with a game plan, which insists that the players bring the ball around the boundary line, rather than take the game on and go up the centre of the ground.

At the end of the game, we noted that only 20,000 had bothered to turn up and that there were tumbleweeds blowing in the section where Carlton members would normally sit. 

I can't bring myself to go to another game. So I will sit at home and watch on Fox Footy.

I have never felt so bereft of hope about MY club, at anytime over the last 60 years, as I do now.

I await with great anticipation, the President,  the Board, the CEO,  SOMEONE, ANYONE in authority at the club, to call a press conference or send a letter to members giving us a clear unambiguous direction in which the Club is heading.

I have a feeling, it will be a long, long, wait. ??? ??? ???

Mate this is spot on.

We have not seemed secure in any facet of the club for the last 8 years.

It's no wonder our players are playing so visibly lost.  They know that things are not going well, and at any moment some power broker will turn the club upside due to the situation we find ourselves in.

@Bignic

Like you, I took my 6 year old grandson along yesterday. He enjoyed the sausage roll, chips and drink I bought for him and he had a few laughs at the expense of a particularly loud mouthed Lions supporter and his wife. He also enjoyed the tram ride back to Flinders St. That was about it.  ::)

Hi Cookie,

With a bit of luck, our grandchildren will quickly forget that woeful experience.

Watching them closely, it is apparent that their skills, ALL OF THEM, are woeful.

I lost count of how many times they either kicked to the opposition when not under pressure, hand balled to the opposition when not under pressure, and displayed a total lack of ability to stick a tackle.

When they did attempt to tackle, they invariably grabbed their opponent around the neck, even though the player they grabbed was standing upright. I know most players in the the competition do it, but I just get the feeling we are the worst.

The player has got a whole body of his opponent to grab onto, but they always go head high.

Walker and Curnow are long time offenders. Carazzo is a beauty at it. Others, lack the intelligence not to fall into the back of an opponent, and think that it's a sign of extra physical effort when they do,, rather than them giving away a cheap free kick.

A head high from Walker on Christensen when he had all of Christensen's body to grab onto, cost us a goal in the last quarter. It was the act oif a non-thinking Richard Cranium.

The tackling is just one aspect where our tackle coach has failed miserably.

I agree with The Sheik on another thread.

We need a total clean out, and we need to bring in personnel who have the ability to teach our list, how to tackle, kick to position, handball to position, kick straight, and do all those things that we expect footballers whose wage WE pay, to do well.

At what?
He was serviceable... for a 2nd year player maybe but for a B&F player of his caliber we demand so much more  :o

100% spot on. You look at his stats & you could say 23 isn't bad, but all I remember is a helluva lot of indiscriminate 'round-the-corner' hoofs forward & very little possessions of substance.

100% spot on. You look at his stats & you could say 23 isn't bad, but all I remember is a helluva lot of indiscriminate 'round-the-corner' hoofs forward & very little possessions of substance.

Gibbs and Walker, at 183 games experience a piece, disgraced the jumper yesterday more than I have ever seen a Carlton player do before.

Gibbs and Walker, at 183 games experience a piece, disgraced the jumper yesterday more than I have ever seen a Carlton player do before.

I spoke to a lot of supporters who were there, both during, and after the game going home, and I don't believe I have ever encountered in all the years I have followed Carlton as I did yesterday, such bitterness towards a player who ostensibly is blessed with all the skills of the game, as I did  towards Gibbs.

I think the part that sums up why Gibbs game fell over was late in the 3/4 or maybe early in the 4th, we won a clearance, and Gibbs ended up with the footy at the coal face, and ignored two targets in front of him trying to handball over his shoulder, and straight to a Lion who cleared and goalled.

Game was on the line, and we need blokes to stand up, and a no look handball turnover in the centre of the ground from a ruck contest gives them back to back scoring opportunities.

Not good enough.

Bryce is better than that though.

I think the pressure is causing the players to make stupid decisions on the back of trying to lift the side.  Being inspirational doesnt mean playing speculative and spectacular footy, its about doing the 1% and backing up your teamates.

The most inspirational piece of play last season was ironically Dennis Armfield, and Jeffy Garlett who both sprinted about 50 metres, to shepherd an opponent away from Yarran who was bearing down on goals against West Coast.

THAT is what we need, not look away handballs.

.

Bryce is better than that though.

He is, he's taking the piss ATM. Just grabbing and kicking Robinson style or making bizarre decisions.

I think the part that sums up why Gibbs game fell over was late in the 3/4 or maybe early in the 4th, we won a clearance, and Gibbs ended up with the footy at the coal face, and ignored two targets in front of him trying to handball over his shoulder, and straight to a Lion who cleared and goalled.

Game was on the line, and we need blokes to stand up, and a no look handball turnover in the centre of the ground from a ruck contest gives them back to back scoring opportunities.

Not good enough.

Bryce is better than that though.

I think the pressure is causing the players to make stupid decisions on the back of trying to lift the side.  Being inspirational doesnt mean playing speculative and spectacular footy, its about doing the 1% and backing up your teamates.

The most inspirational piece of play last season was ironically Dennis Armfield, and Jeffy Garlett who both sprinted about 50 metres, to shepherd an opponent away from Yarran who was bearing down on goals against West Coast.

THAT is what we need, not look away handballs.

I think one of the worst things I have seen this year was Gibbs decision not to shepherd for Cripps.
It was selfish, lazy and showed a complete lack of leadership.
He should have been dropped after it.
Pathetic

He is, he's taking the piss ATM. Just grabbing and kicking Robinson style or making bizarre decisions.

It's like he's saying fork this, if the club are going to take the piss then so am I.

I think one of the worst things I have seen this year was Gibbs decision not to shepherd for Cripps.
It was selfish, lazy and showed a complete lack of leadership.
He should have been dropped after it.
Pathetic

I saw Boekhorst just having to fend for himself.....no players bothered to help him off the ground when tackled etc, he was very isolated out there in many contests IMO and received no guidance at all..
None of the leaders gave encouragement when he had that kick for goal, only Bell I think it was walked by and said something...
No wonder our kids find it hard to develop when your teammates havent got your back....I can take losing with  shabby skills etc but this team dont care about each other and the leadership group are leaders in name only......

What happened to common goals and playing as a team? Mick has failed dismally.

It's like he's saying fork this, if the club are going to take the piss then so am I.

I get this, I really do however at what point does being a man and having some pride take over being a sheep?

I get this, I really do however at what point does being a man and having some pride take over being a sheep?

I agree not good enough from Gibbs if that's the case. But what has happened to get him in this state of mind?

I agree not good enough from Gibbs if that's the case. But what has happened to get him in this state of mind?

I guess thats the million dollar question and only he can answer it, we can only speculate. The playing group looks fractured to me, they aren't playing for each other thats for sure. They are a bunch of individuals out there at the moment.  They also don't work anywhere near hard enough when they don't have the footy. Its like they are all waiting for the Chinaman to do something.

Hi Cookie,

With a bit of luck, our grandchildren will quickly forget that woeful experience.

Watching them closely, it is apparent that their skills, ALL OF THEM, are woeful.

I lost count of how many times they either kicked to the opposition when not under pressure, hand balled to the opposition when not under pressure, and displayed a total lack of ability to stick a tackle.

When they did attempt to tackle, they invariably grabbed their opponent around the neck, even though the player they grabbed was standing upright. I know most players in the the competition do it, but I just get the feeling we are the worst.

The player has got a whole body of his opponent to grab onto, but they always go head high.

Walker and Curnow are long time offenders. Carazzo is a beauty at it. Others, lack the intelligence not to fall into the back of an opponent, and think that it's a sign of extra physical effort when they do,, rather than them giving away a cheap free kick.

A head high from Walker on Christensen when he had all of Christensen's body to grab onto, cost us a goal in the last quarter. It was the act oif a non-thinking Richard Cranium.

The tackling is just one aspect where our tackle coach has failed miserably.

I agree with The Sheik on another thread.

We need a total clean out, and we need to bring in personnel who have the ability to teach our list, how to tackle, kick to position, handball to position, kick straight, and do all those things that we expect footballers whose wage WE pay, to do well.

Mate, I'm right with you on all of that. How the hell are we to move forward when we are just so bad at even the basic skills of the game? I hope all of this is well understood by the club otherwise we are likely to make another dumb strategic move that will keep us behind the eight-ball for another 3 years.

I agree totally, we need to get in some qualified support staff for the coach, whomever he may be . Basic skills such as tackling, kicking, creating a free flowing game, kicking goals ,
supporting your team mates at all costs and wining games.
We desperately need some some hard nosed skilled professional to mentor our kids into positive mind sets or we'll go nowhere.
Ciao

Eight possible available to come in, who gets a gig??

Kreuser
Jammo
Carrazzo
Menzel
Yarran
White
Simpson
Henderson

For me:
Menzel
Henderson
Simpson
Yarran

Maybe Krooooz

Eight possible available to come in, who gets a gig??

Kreuser
Jammo
Carrazzo
Menzel
Yarran
White
Simpson
Henderson

For me:
Menzel
Henderson
Simpson
Yarran

Maybe Krooooz

Kruezer needs 6 weeks more in the ressies
no to carrotts simmo Jamo
Play the kids

I agree totally, we need to get in some qualified support staff for the coach, whomever he may be . Basic skills such as tackling, kicking, creating a free flowing game, kicking goals ,
supporting your team mates at all costs and wining games.
We desperately need some some hard nosed skilled professional to mentor our kids into positive mind sets or we'll go nowhere.
Ciao

I though thats what we were paying Mick one mill a year to do...??? :o....we wont need to go nowhere ...we have already arrived..

Eight possible available to come in, who gets a gig??

Kreuser
Jammo
Carrazzo
Menzel
Yarran
White
Simpson
Henderson

For me:
Menzel
Henderson
Simpson
Yarran

Maybe Krooooz

Depends on fitness, but i'd be going for....
Simmo
Jammo
Hendo
Yazz
Menzel
White
Carrots
Kreuzer

in that order, assuming fully fit.

I've never been a Watson fan, but if I could make one change this week it would be to bring in Watson for Jones.

I've never been a Watson fan, but if I could make one change this week it would be to bring in Watson for Jones.

^^^ This......

I've never been a Watson fan, but if I could make one change this week it would be to bring in Watson for Jones.

If Jones plays this week we are definitely tanking.

I'm not all that hopeful that Watson will make it but, if the team is selected on merit, Watson has to be given a go.  If he is to have the same opportunity as Jones, Watson will have the next six games to show whether or not he can play at AFL level.

I have not watched Watson for a long time. I am really getting concerned about his future. If he doesn't senior footy, he will miss the chance to get up to the standard AFL). I hear he takes marks and is a good kick of the footy. So he definitely shows he can kick goals. He is is a big body and if he can use his strength he is an option. If he doesn't play, he has absolutely no trade value at all and could become a list clogger. So why would we hesitate to give him a decent opportunity a few times this season to show if he is a capable forward. 3 to 5 games at a time. 3 times in the season I would have thought. However his time is quickly running out. By the time Mick plays him, we may only have 6 to 8 games left for the year. Is he out of favour with our coach ? Does he not follow the team plan ? Obviously that answer is one of , how the hell would we know as he never gets a chance to prove his worth. I'm quickly losing my patience with how the MC chose the squad each game. There really doesn't appear to be a strong plan to play a squad that will win the game. ???

^^^ This......

Amen, even with a half dozen touches he'd be an improvement.

The other one who's gone really missing is Everitt. Another first found draftee who comes to CFC and loses the plot.

He was always average Fly, you don't get released by two clubs if you're any good.

He was always average Fly, you don't get released by two clubs if you're any good.

Sydney didn't want to let him go... MM persuaded him to CFC. He was well regarded by the Fluffy Ducks.

Sydney didn't want to let him go... MM persuaded him to CFC. He was well regarded by the Fluffy Ducks.

Nah, someone had to give salary cap wise and he was it, he was deemed expendable so to speak. MM convinced him to come to Carlton, not to leave Sydney.

He's not hopeless by any means but he is a little soft.

Nah, someone had to give salary cap wise and he was it, he was deemed expendable so to speak. MM convinced him to come to Carlton, not to leave Sydney.

He's not hopeless by any means but he is a little soft.

So your argument is that because he was released by the Fluffy Ducks he's no good?  ???

So your argument is that because he was released by the Fluffy Ducks he's no good?  ???

No because he's been released by two clubs, which I clearly initially said, suggests that he's only average and it doesn't surprise me that he's not playing too well. His career has certainly not lived up to his first round pick status.

70 point loss coming. ..

Cameron will kick 8....

we're tanking

we're tanking

I think I may have posted this before, but if we are tanking then Mick is probably staying IMO.

Did anyone see the footage of Mick after our most recent loss? If we're tanking he has nothing to do with it.

I don't think we're tanking we're just kr@p.
On the Jones debate I agree he needs to be dropped, but to bring in a spud like Watson to replace him is a mistake. Please nobody give me the "he needs a chance" argument. He's had plenty. Just look at how he plays. He's lazy, unaccountable, bad skill set and relatively soft.
Wait a minute!
I stand corrected. He is an obvious choice for selection this week.

Did anyone see the footage of Mick after our most recent loss? If we're tanking he has nothing to do with it.

Malthouse is trying hard. He is not tanking.
Are we tanking? Or are we as bad as it looks? We won't know the answer until we have something like a full list. If we come out to play.....

Jones needs to go back as he is making a mockery of this supposed culture building. If his name was j. Waite, Madhouse would have already organised the public stoning before this week's match.

Malthouse is trying hard. He is not tanking.
Are we tanking? Or are we as bad as it looks? We won't know the answer until we have something like a full list. If we come out to play.....

If MM is not tanking then the club is not tanking. The players may just not be consciously or unconsciously trying or playing for the coach but I wouldn't call that tanking which is really trying consciously to improve your draft position.

Jones needs to go back as he is making a mockery of this supposed culture building. If his name was j. Waite, Madhouse would have already organised the public stoning before this week's match.

I'm not so sure.

He definately looks like he is trying, and you can't say that our ball use has given him (or any of our forwards) much chance to show his stuff.

He has failed to kick straight when he has had opportunities but I think he is not as bad as advertised and nor do I think that Watson will yield significantly different results if we delivered him the footy.

The other scenario is that things are still relatively new down there.  Our forward 6 I don't think couldnt have looked more different this season if we tried, and although we are losing patience we have no idea what is trying to be achieved currently.

Sure put in Watson though he has kicked a few goals in the VFL and deserves his chance at least.

Nah, someone had to give salary cap wise and he was it, he was deemed expendable so to speak. MM convinced him to come to Carlton, not to leave Sydney.

He's not hopeless by any means but he is a little soft.

A little soft... a Lot soft. Hates the physical stuff. Will noticeably take short steps or back away. He's not on his pat at the moment though.

@IOT

Spot on, Waite would have been dropped twice. It's not like when we had 40 inside 50's and Waite got dropped. We have beaten most teams in Clearances, Contested Posessions and even on possessions and havent kicked more than 11 goals and getting slaughtered on the counter.

Some of that is our slow slow movement of the ball, lack of skills, but our forwards DO NOT WORK to either make position or create space. They call for it to be bombed on their head.

When's the last time we hit a leading forward lace out, after cutting through the middle?

A little soft... a Lot soft. Hates the physical stuff. Will noticeably take short steps or back away. He's not on his pat at the moment though.

@IOT

Spot on, Waite would have been dropped twice. It's not like when we had 40 inside 50's and Waite got dropped. We have beaten most teams in Clearances, Contested Posessions and even on possessions and havent kicked more than 11 goals and getting slaughtered on the counter.

Some of that is our slow slow movement of the ball, lack of skills, but our forwards DO NOT WORK to either make position or create space. They call for it to be bombed on their head.

When's the last time we hit a leading forward lace out, after cutting through the middle?

Was at the Lions game and watched carefully for this - we do not have any leading forwards.

Drool, Hoops to Fev...

[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/M7lEN7hI_yo[/flash]

No because he's been released by two clubs, which I clearly initially said, suggests that he's only average and it doesn't surprise me that he's not playing too well. His career has certainly not lived up to his first round pick status.

Personally I don't care if he's had 10 previous clubs, it's what he does at this one that counts.

To me he seems to be that 15-20th picked bloke, the one who can do really good work when the side is performing at a higher standard. But, when things are tough, like now, he's unlikely to be the type to get down and dirty with desperate sacrificial acts to inspire and lift... but he's got a lot of mates. Personally I do not see him as a swingman. I think he's a third tall forward who can play high (up to the wing) and drift deep into the forward line as well. Much rather see him as the third tall than Jones. He's got good skills and would be, at this stage, easily in our best 22.

Every side needs good finishers/outside blokes and though they may appear to lack ticker when it's gruesomely tough, they're the blokes who can finish the hard work of the bullockers. Braddles was not a hard in and under, but his effectiveness was amazing. Expecting Gibbs to be a hard in-and-under midfield is a folly and embarrassing to him and the side. His talents are at times sublime, hence he should be playing the outside/finishing stuff. I'd even much rather see Murph doing more outside and less mongrel stuff - he's just too small. The sooner the Crippses, Whileys, Bells and so on take over the midfield hard stuff the better.

When's the last time we hit a leading forward lace out, after cutting through the middle?

Last week when there was one good centre clearance and Judd ended up with the footy streaming out and hitting up Levi on the lead dead in front who converted. But thats once is 6 rounds, which is deplorable.

Jones must be dropped surely, give Watson a go.

I'm not so sure.

He definately looks like he is trying, and you can't say that our ball use has given him (or any of our forwards) much chance to show his stuff.

You're watching the wrong guy :P

I'm not so sure.

He definately looks like he is trying, and you can't say that our ball use has given him (or any of our forwards) much chance to show his stuff.

He has failed to kick straight when he has had opportunities but I think he is not as bad as advertised and nor do I think that Watson will yield significantly different results if we delivered him the footy.

The other scenario is that things are still relatively new down there.  Our forward 6 I don't think couldnt have looked more different this season if we tried, and although we are losing patience we have no idea what is trying to be achieved currently.

Sure put in Watson though he has kicked a few goals in the VFL and deserves his chance at least.

There needs to be a connection between the mids and fwds. That is, they have the ability to pre-empt each others moves. Having said that, our mids have been terrible entering 50 this year but Jones hasnt made it easy for the mids by creating some extra space/gap.

Drool, Hoops to Fev...

[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/M7lEN7hI_yo[/flash]

That's the way you do it - and I'm talking to you Jones!! Wonderful.

(Thanks Shades!)

There needs to be a connection between the mids and fwds. That is, they have the ability to pre-empt each others moves. Having said that, our mids have been terrible entering 50 this year but Jones hasnt made it easy for the mids by creating some extra space/gap.

No doubt he hasnt helped, but our ball delivery has been attrocious at best.

The rainmaker kick that travels as high as it does long to any position only suits a couple of players that we have had in our forwardline across the journey.

1.  Fevola
2.  A resting ruckman and the 3 amigos
3.  To a lesser degree Levi.

Whilst that pass remains a feature of our play we will not achieve much unless we find a gun forward who is excellent at reading the flight of the ball coming in, and is strong enough to take a mark regardless of defensive pressure.  Given that we have just described only Levi of our current key position Forwards and we all know about his kicking, we are in a bit of trouble.  That was the pleasurable thing about Clem Smith against the Lions.  He didnt just go the bomb.  He kicked it lower, and harder.  It got cut off a few times, but it also creates an issue for the defenders.

They have to read it better going in to cut it off and mark it, and if they are not fast enough, they will get hit by the leading forward.  If that occurs and a collision is the result, the ball should spill rather than be a clean mark and rebound.  This hasnt been happening because of the kicking.

Fix that and we will instantly become a much better side.

but our ball delivery has been attrocious at best.

I heard one report on the radio saying that our clearance rate is so high because opposition teams let us get the first kick out because they know we will turn it over and then we are easy pickings!!

I heard one report on the radio saying that our clearance rate is so high because opposition teams let us get the first kick out because they know we will turn it over and then we are easy pickings!!

i reckon that's pure BS.

Surely with the quality of players coming back in this week, we ll see a much better effort across the board from our team.
Hope for some run and dare through the middle for once, and Yazz and Simmo coming back will help with that.Also, Hendo and Menz coming back will give a couple more quality targets up forward, and also hope that Levi will gain some confidence from his 4 goals last week and continue to attack the ball and crash the packs.
If Jamo also comes in, Id give Jones a run in the VFL along with probably Whiley, and Smith.

I heard one report on the radio saying that our clearance rate is so high because opposition teams let us get the first kick out because they know we will turn it over and then we are easy pickings!!

That scenario was discussed on here a few days ago.

I heard one report on the radio saying that our clearance rate is so high because opposition teams let us get the first kick out because they know we will turn it over and then we are easy pickings!!

They can do that at their peril. When we get some confidence back and start hitting targets, fwit teams who employ this tactic will pay.

G2c you shiftioso......you know what they say about Italians. :P

When you have bananas in the forward line who are either not there, not contesting or running into each other and then at the other end defenders who are isolated and separated and a midfield which won't run hard defensively this is an obvious tactic.

G2c you shiftioso......you know what they say about Italians. :P

Che?

That's the way you do it - and I'm talking to you Jones!! Wonderful.

(Thanks Shades!)

Great memories , most of the goals were from 50 & beyond, our forwards would need 3 kicks to do it these days.properly kick backwards as well

In:Simon White,
  Chris Yarran,
  Matthew Watson,
  Troy Menzel,
  Andrew Carrazzo,
  Matthew Dick,
  Jason Tutt.

Out:  Clem Smith (Omitted),
  Mark Whiley (Omitted),
  Nick Graham (Omitted),
  Dylan Buckley (Omitted),
  Andrew Walker (Knee),
  Blaine Boekhorst (Omitted),
  Liam Jones (Omitted)
 
Graham stiff.... Tutt lucky...

What's wrong with Simmo?

And there was Liam Jones. Who stood In the  one spot for 10 Mins. And when we did get it he ran back towards goal asking for them to bomb it on his head.

Won't play past round 6

Boom.

Nick Graham  ::) ::) ::)

Graham got 5 touches in the last qtr, more than Murphy and Gibbs combined. Maybe he needed to get 15 touches to stay in ::).

Boom.

Nick Graham  ::) ::) ::)

Nick Graham showed enough Sunday to deserve another gig.

In:Simon White,
  Chris Yarran,
  Matthew Watson,
  Troy Menzel,
  Andrew Carrazzo,
  Matthew Dick,
  Jason Tutt.

Out:  Clem Smith (Omitted),
  Mark Whiley (Omitted),
  Nick Graham (Omitted),
  Dylan Buckley (Omitted),
  Andrew Walker (Knee),
  Blaine Boekhorst (Omitted),
  Liam Jones (Omitted)
 
Graham stiff.... Tutt lucky...

Cant complain with either INs and OUTs..
Tutt offers a bit more run than one placed Nick Graham, which allows us to combat the quickness of GWS.
.

This would have to be Watson's last chance.  He's either warming a spot for Kruezer or will put his hand up.  Based on his past I'm not expecting much.  Having said that he's replacing a witches hat, so he can't do much worse.

Well, we asked Mick to play the kids. He did, and we were still losing.

Now, thanks to a few people returning from injury, this side will be more battle hardened and big bodied by comparison.

Lets see what kind of difference that makes.

GWS just beat the premiers.
We lost to last place.

A win would be a huge turnaround

Graham got 5 touches in the last qtr, more than Murphy and Gibbs combined. Maybe he needed to get 15 touches to stay in ::).

THIS THIS THIS!!

We have got to stop rewarding LAZY PLAYERS!!

What message are we sending the younger LESSER PAID playing group...??

Grrrr!!

They were never ever going to drop Gibbs and Murphy.  I still would have given Graham a game over Carrots or Army.  Deserves a full 120 minutes on the ground.

And we're still at least five players off our "best" team with no Simmo, Krooz, Jamo, Hendo and Walker.

Nick Graham showed enough Sunday to deserve another gig.

Agree. He is definitely very unlucky to be dropped. I'd have to think that his papers are stamped esp. if MM stays on. At least Watson gets his go.

OMG Nick Graham are you forking kidding me. And to think I kind of felt sorry for Mick at the end of last week. The bloke is an absolute pisstaker of the highest order.

THIS THIS THIS!!

We have got to stop rewarding LAZY PLAYERS!!

What message are we sending the younger LESSER PAID playing group...??

Grrrr!!

Graham must feel so disillusioned right now.

No Graham.

UN screwING BELIEVABLE!!!

Cant complain with either INs and OUTs..
Tutt offers a bit more run than one placed Nick Graham, which allows us to combat the quickness of GWS.

Are you kidding Domski. Graham had more touches in one quarter than Tutt had in two games didn't he? Tutt offers us sweet FA.

Graham must feel so disillusioned right now.

yep..i suggest he may be speaking to his player agent right now...

Ditto to all who are not happy with Graham being dropped.....ridiculous development IMO....if someone can tell me what outstanding work Dick has done
to warrant a game then let me know....
Good to see White, Carrazzo and Menzel back and I guess Tutt deserves another go given he played well in the NB's last week....
Watto gets another go and it will be interesting to see how he is used...lead up, decoy for Casboult or genuine marking target like Levi..

In: A.Carrazzo, S.White, C.Yarran, J.Tutt, M.Watson, T.Menzel, M.Dick

Out: A.Walker (knee), L.Jones, D.Buckley, M.Whiley, B.Boekhorst, N.Graham, C.Smith

Call an ambulance, I'm in shock.


Gee, Nick Graham got a great deal out of playing seniors, talk about poor player management ??

I probably would've kept Graham over Curnow....and wouldn't have brought in Dick.

No Graham.

UN screwING BELIEVABLE!!!

OMG  :o

Decent ins but overall a lot of changes. Its hard to see a stable side emerging at all really.

Relieved to see Kruezer not playing. He needs to get the equivalent of a couple of pre-season games under his belt.

Must be Watson's last chance to have an impact. I can't see Buckley making it back any time soon either and he may not be with us next year. Walker was very poor last week, and if he was playing injured it might explain things, but to now be out does not bode well at all. Don't understand the Graham dropping. The sub rule is a silly one, but it is not being well used by us at all.

After last week's loss and with GWS starting to look like a real league footy team this could be ugly.

If someone can explain our "Player Management & Development" policy and how it relates to Nick Graham I'm all ears.

If someone can explain our "Player Management & Development" policy and how it relates to Nick Graham I'm all ears.

Doesn't have a match-up.


(It's an oldy but a goody ::))

If someone can explain our "Player Management & Development" policy and how it relates to Nick Graham I'm all ears.

is that mckays job- footy operations?

Doesn't have a match-up.


(It's an oldy but a goody ::))

It could be true...kinda.

A lot of people complain when we have too many similar (read slow) players in the midfield. The inclusion of Carrazzo adds another one to a midfield that already has Cripps in it.

It could be true...kinda.

A lot of people complain when we have too many similar (read slow) players in the midfield. The inclusion of Carrazzo adds another one to a midfield that already has Cripps in it.

He could be the heir apparent to Carazzo, but the match committee may have gone with the tried and true given our current position.  Could see the changing of the baton if Carrazzo falls over again or doesn't cut it.

Doesn't have a match-up.


(It's an oldy but a goody ::))

That one ain't going to wash with me Lods but good try.

Graham was brought into the seniors, was given the vest, played 1/4 of footy and did okay but then gets dropped.

When you have certain players "coasting" through matches and still getting selected every week yet others are brought in for fleeting visits, is it any wonder we are seeing the results we are ??

There is no spirit amongst the playing group, it's all onfield confusion and self-preservation !!

I probably would've kept Graham over Curnow....and wouldn't have brought in Dick.

Curnow played his best game of the year last week..beat his man and got some footy himself.....we agree on Dick.

I never liked Graham's haircut either so...

Mick's said he's playing to win...

Carlton

B: Kristian Jaksch, Sam Rowe, Simon White.
HB: Zach Tuohy, Chris Yarran, Sam Docherty.
C: Andrejs Everitt, Chris Judd, Ed Curnow.
HF: Dennis Armfield, Levi Casboult, Dale Thomas.
F: Tom Bell, Matthew Watson, Troy Menzel.
Foll: Cameron Wood, Bryce Gibbs, Marc Murphy.
Int: Andrew Carrazzo, Patrick Cripps, Matthew Dick, Jason Tutt.
Emg: David Ellard, Nick Graham, Nick Holman.

In: Simon White, Chris Yarran, Matthew Watson, Troy Menzel, Andrew Carrazzo, Matthew Dick, Jason Tutt.

Out:  Clem Smith (Omitted), Mark Whiley (Omitted), Nick Graham (Omitted), Dylan Buckley (Omitted), Andrew Walker (Knee), Blaine Boekhorst (Omitted), Liam Jones (Omitted)

I am a bit surprised that Holman didn't get a go before Dick. I am sorry to say that Dick does not like the answer at this point.
I am pleased to see White and Carrazzo return. They are important players who keep their opponents down much better than we've been able to do in recent times.
I am a bit disappointed that Graham dot dropped: I would like to see him get the opportunities that Liam Jones got. I don't think he is the answer, but I'd like to see him prove it one way or the other.

GWS Giants

B: Heath Shaw, Joel Patfull, Matt Buntine.
HB: Nick Haynes, Phil Davis, Adam Kennedy.
C: Toby Greene, Stephen Coniglio, Tomas Bugg.
HF: Adam Treloar, Cam McCarthy, Devon Smith.
F: Lachie Whitfield, Jeremy Cameron, Zac Williams.
Foll: Shane Mumford, Callan Ward, Tom Scully.
Int: James Stewart, Will Hoskin-Elliott, Ryan Griffen, Dylan Shiel.
Em: Josh Kelly, Jack Steele, Tom Downie
In: No Change
 
Heath Shaw seems to love playing us. With no Garlett or Betts I don't see any way of embarrassing him by making him pick up a man.
Mumford plays well against us. When he plays well, GWS usually do well.
Ward saves his best games for us. Hopefully Carrots or Curnow can keep him under control for a change.

MM will have White FF and Watson down CHB  ::)

I would have liked to see Graham play a full game and not be dropped. I'm not sold on Matthew Dick or Jason Tutt. I should be fair and give them a chance. I have my doubts with these 2. As for Liam Jones, about time. How many chances can we give this guy. He Really needs to go into the seconds and work his bum off. Getting his hands on the ball and converting. Maybe confidence is his number one issue. Mick, please stick Watson up forward and give him a chance like you have given Jones. We have little to lose, and heaps to gain.

Menzel, Yarran and White are a huge bonus for us. It could mean the difference between winning and losing this week. I really believe this. Now that I have said that, we will probably lose again.

I can see a parody coming...
John Lennon's... Give Graham a chance! :P

We should win and win well, but...

We fold under real heat/pressure. The only question is whether GWS can bring that heat for 4 quarters (actually 3 would probably do the job). We know that we can't sustain heat for more than 2 quarters and I'm betting GWS knows that too.

We should win and win well, but...

We fold under real heat/pressure. The only question is whether GWS can bring that heat for 4 quarters (actually 3 would probably do the job). We know that we can't sustain heat for more than 2 quarters and I'm betting GWS knows that too.

on what basis should we win well?

gws beat hawthorn

they have cameron and a growing midfield and we wont stop him

If someone can explain our "Player Management & Development" policy and how it relates to Nick Graham I'm all ears.

I don't have any idea nor inside knowledge, but I would guess that there is a pecking order being followed regarding where players fit into our team and what roles they are supposed to play to go with .


Beyond that I can't really understand it.

There might be more to it, or it could simply be that Mick doesn't rate him as a better prospect than any of our other young mids. 

I don't think Im going to try and bother and figure out what we are doing, or trying to do, because the club and the MC seem to be on different pages, and deliver mixed messages.

Im just going to ride the wave from here onwards and see where it ends up.

Gee I don't know what Graham has or hasn't done to deserve the treatment he is getting but I'm guessing he'll be gone at season's end along with a few others. Liam Jones gets 6 weeks of underperforming before he gets dropped and Graham gets one quarter. That's how our club does business and who can argue, the're the experts who get paid the big bucks and they know what they're doing.  ::)

I really hope Walker's injury was the reason he played so badly last week (and probably every week since his return) because on that form he shouldn't be getting a game.
Carrazzo and White, ho-hum selections. Both have a crack though so that's something.
Yarran and Menzel back at least give us a bit of toe if nothing else.
Tutt and Dick? Hardly instill confidence.
Watson will once again show all the non-believers that he truly is a spud of gargantuan proportions, much like his head. I only hope he does play forward so as to cause as little damage as possible.
Also thought Boekhorst was a bit stiff. Showed some good signs early.
GWS by 10 goals.

Whilst I suspect that Mick does not rate Graham highly, I think that he's being drive now  by the fact that he's getting ever more desperate for a win, so is relying on the older hands as his best chance. Player development fits in somewhere behind that.

Whilst I suspect that Mick does not rate Graham highly, I think that he's being drive now  by the fact that he's getting ever more desperate for a win, so is relying on the older hands as his best chance. Player development fits in somewhere behind that.

Why does he need to win when we are rebuilding and the club publically announced it after round 2?

People keep looking at our coach as to why we are lacking motivation to play well, but I can tell you now, if guys like Trigg and Lo Giudice have upset the apple cart at the footy club and in such a large way that people probably can't stand walking in the front door right now.

I heard a rumour about Chris Yarran about how he loves Mick, but hates the defeated mentality of our organisation.


Our Organisation.  The Club has been belted by the AFL for the draft sanctions, and we have never recovered.  Clean the place out and start again.

Why does he need to win when we are rebuilding and the club publically announced it after round 2?

People keep looking at our coach as to why we are lacking motivation to play well, but I can tell you now, if guys like Trigg and Lo Giudice have upset the apple cart at the footy club and in such a large way that people probably can't stand walking in the front door right now.

I heard a rumour about Chris Yarran about how he loves Mick, but hates the defeated mentality of our organisation.


Our Organisation.  The Club has been belted by the AFL for the draft sanctions, and we have never recovered.  Clean the place out and start again.

Unlike some, I'm not running with an anti-Mick agenda. I think he's genuinely driven by a desire to win games and is still tasked by the club to do exactly that. At least then he can also salvage some pride and patch up the damage to his reputation.

Whether or not he's part of the longer term rebuild plans I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect not, and that is my dispassionate opinion.

I'm not anti-Mick, but he needs to be coaching to a plan... it seems to be a rudderless ship wandering to nowheresville.  Playing a kid as a sub then dropping him after a quarter is a way to lose people very quickly.

I would have thought that dropping Boekhorst was a mistake too, when he needs time to get up to speed with the game at the top level.  Almost seems an admission that they've made a mistake.

Why does he need to win when we are rebuilding and the club publically announced it after round 2?

People keep looking at our coach as to why we are lacking motivation to play well, but I can tell you now, if guys like Trigg and Lo Giudice have upset the apple cart at the footy club and in such a large way that people probably can't stand walking in the front door right now.

So what are the players' thoughts when Mick blames their lack of talent for his shortcomings.

I heard a rumour about Chris Yarran about how he loves Mick, but hates the defeated mentality of our organisation.

I heard a rumour about Yarran that he loves the club but cannot stand Mick.

Boekhorst has been average and last week he was soft too pulling out of a couple of contests but he needs games to condition himself to senior footy.
Like Graham he is good enough to get 20 plus possies in the NB's each week without too much effort and will learn nothing.
I'd be training him as my new Garlett and trying to harden him up, his skills are ok but as discussed many times his light frame isnt up to senior footy yet.
GWS are not a hard unit and rely on moving the ball quickly and are one team you would think Boakhorst would be more comfortable playing against...

We will win this.

We have a number of players coming back who will reduce the pressure on others.
GWS are still a young side, who will be confident after beating the premiers....over confident!

We're two games and a bit of percentage outside the eight.
Time to make our charge. ;) :D

TO be fair, Mick's way is to give them a taste, drop them back and apply that to VFL.

Cripps and Menzel seem to be showing good signs of that.

Still makes no sense to drop Graham. Love to see Whiley given a free reign.

One tip in the HS this week, the kiss of death....now that's embarrassing! :o

Graham and Boekhorst drops is deplorable, yet not surprising fro MM.

I can see what he is trying to do but there comes a time when you need to play a group of young blokes together over a block of games......and not as the subs!

Hopefully BB does well at VFL level. rate him and think he can deliver some goods to us. Graham just keeps on getting a raw deal. He must have again forgotten MM's birthday or something!

For some reason,I have a belief that we will beat the Giants .
I know they played well to beat the Hawks but that was in Sydney.Also they are favorites ,will the pressure get to them .
My 2 main worries are Mumford in the ruck and Cameron in the forward line.Expect an upset .I will be there for the simple reason ,the more you lose the closer you are to a win  so come on Blues get it done  :)    

For some reason,I have a belief that we will beat the Giants .
I know they played well to beat the Hawks but that was in Sydney.Also they are favorites ,will the pressure get to them .
My 2 main worries are Mumford in the ruck and Cameron in the forward line.Expect an upset .I will be there for the simple reason ,the more you lose the closer you are to a win  so come on Blues get it done  :)  

I'd love you to be right H, but having sat through last Sunday's effort I would be amazed if we win this week. So many  things have to be done so much better.

Ditto to all who are not happy with Graham being dropped.....ridiculous development IMO....if someone can tell me what outstanding work Dick has done
to warrant a game then let me know....
Good to see White, Carrazzo and Menzel back and I guess Tutt deserves another go given he played well in the NB's last week....
Watto gets another go and it will be interesting to see how he is used...lead up, decoy for Casboult or genuine marking target like Levi..

Watto will play in defence. Actually he will play forward but as we play 18 blokes behind the ball he'll play alot in the backline.

Just for a change I hope i'm wrong on this one.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/carlton-coach-mick-malthouse-decries-unsavoury-media-language-20150515-gh2cud.html

Mick explains - and has a whinge.  ;D

Picking the best side in order to win must be the first principle of selection. The play the kids and develop young players principle must come a distant second.

Want to build a culture of mediocrity? Then losing games will get you there, especially when it come with the excuse of playing young players who need to have a go. The other deficiancy of this approach is when does it stop. When does a club decide to stop being 'developmental' and picking the best side?  Who gets an opportunity and why? It can become very confusing and incoherent very fast.

Malthouse is trying to build a bridge to a culture and attitude that is about winning and believing you can win every game. The straightforward way to this is pick the best side. Otherwise you are half a side going out to win (and knowing that you are unlikely to) and another half who are having a go.  To this i bollocks. This isn't football camp, it's the AFL. Pick the best side and try and win every game. Anything less is folly.

You have failed to grasp the concept of a rebuild.

Picking the best side in order to win must be the first principle of selection. The play the kids and develop young players principle must come a distant second.

Want to build a culture of mediocrity? Then losing games will get you there, especially when it come with the excuse of playing young players who need to have a go. The other deficiancy of this approach is when does it stop. When does a club decide to stop being 'developmental' and picking the best side?  Who gets an opportunity and why? It can become very confusing and incoherent very fast.

Malthouse is trying to build a bridge to a culture and attitude that is about winning and believing you can win every game. The straightforward way to this is pick the best side. Otherwise you are half a side going out to win (and knowing that you are unlikely to) and another half who are having a go.  To this i bollocks. This isn't football camp, it's the AFL. Pick the best side and try and win every game. Anything less is folly.

Yep we need this more than anything else I think.

More than draft picks, more than trading more than anything.

we need to build a culture of success.

Lack of planning in player development is what's killed us. Mick's philosophy of selecting the best side to win with no eye for getting experience into the people who will be critical to our success in five years is exactly what got us into a mess. A mess where we have about 100 games experience to our entire U23 squad.

Can't be too good a strategy anyway as we're fighting it out for a spoon AND not getting vital experience into kids. It's like getting whacked twice.

Making decisions based upon match ups, for example, is a disgrace

You have failed to grasp the concept of a rebuild.

And any rebuild will be on shaky foundations if some basic principles have not been adhered to through the process. I get what Malthouse is attempting. He is trying to build a team on a set of basic principles that can be understood and therefore maintained by all in the team. It's just that it is hard to do.

The popular understanding of what is ostensively called a rebuild is flawed. Playing youngsters on the crieteria of being young, with potential and requiring experience is flawed if it is the primary basis for selection. When does it stop? And if it does, and a club then decides to suuddenly try and win games, it must change its criteria for selection.

Its a bit like hoping that we get experience in now and hope it works out. It is setting the right goal yet taking the wrong path. Set the goal and start conducting yourself as a team like you want to be now, not in some yet to be determined future time when things are deemed all right. Behaving like losers is a sure way to continue losing.

Malthouse is already building something. It's a selection process based on attempting to win games of football first and foremost  I struggle to understand how anything less can be helpful in building something sustainable and successful.

Picking the best side in order to win must be the first principle of selection. The play the kids and develop young players principle must come a distant second.

Want to build a culture of mediocrity? Then losing games will get you there, especially when it come with the excuse of playing young players who need to have a go. The other deficiancy of this approach is when does it stop. When does a club decide to stop being 'developmental' and picking the best side?  Who gets an opportunity and why? It can become very confusing and incoherent very fast.

Malthouse is trying to build a bridge to a culture and attitude that is about winning and believing you can win every game. The straightforward way to this is pick the best side. Otherwise you are half a side going out to win (and knowing that you are unlikely to) and another half who are having a go.  To this i bollocks. This isn't football camp, it's the AFL. Pick the best side and try and win every game. Anything less is folly.

Agreed.

And any rebuild will be on shaky foundations if some basic principles have not been adhered to through the process. I get what Malthouse is attempting. He is trying to build a team on a set of basic principles that can be understood and therefore maintained by all in the team. It's just that it is hard to do.

The popular understanding of what is ostensively called a rebuild is flawed. Playing youngsters on the crieteria of being young, with potential and requiring experience is flawed if it is the primary basis for selection. When does it stop? And if it does, and a club then decides to suuddenly try and win games, it must change its criteria for selection.

Its a bit like hoping that we get experience in now and hope it works out. It is setting the right goal yet taking the wrong path. Set the goal and start conducting yourself as a team like you want to be now, not in some yet to be determined future time when things are deemed all right. Behaving like losers is a sure way to continue losing.

Malthouse is already building something. It's a selection process based on attempting to win games of football first and foremost  I struggle to understand how anything less can be helpful in building something sustainable and successful.

Once again you have totally failed to grasp the concept of a rebuild. A rebuild is not bout winning games, it's about sacrificing a few wins to get games into kids and accelerate their development. Have a read of LLT's post. Also take a look at GC and then GWS. GWS went with the kids and they are now reaping the rewards, with a great foundation of kids having played games (not wins) to build on. Have a look what Dennis did when he tried to make us competitive by playing and recruiting more hardened senior rejects. He set us back years.

If you think the concept of a rebuild is flawed that's fine, but don't sit there and try to tell me a rebuild is all about winning games first and foremost because that is just plain rubbish.

Pushing all that to the side, you simply cannot argue that malthouse is building towards anything other than a big pile of shight, when the team continues to regress at a rate of knots. If he is in fact trying to do what you say, he is failing dismally and as well as getting the method wrong, he has totally missed the mark. He has to go, and he will go.

Pretty obvious selections really - like for like

White for Walker - swingmen
Yarran for Buckley - downhill skier with better delivery skills
Menzel for Boekhorst - medium forwards
Carrazzo for Whiley - defensive midflelder who can get possessions for one who can't
Dick for Graham - sub for sub - maybe Dick fits the vest better
Tutt for Smith - Tutt is faster - although Smith showed enogh last week to suggest he could be a player when he grows bigger, stronger or faster
Watson for Jones - both seemingly inept KPP

The one I feel sorriest for is Whiley - Wile E is clearly not as fast as Carrazzo - he reminded me of Wile E Coyote - the way he chased Pendlebury and Beams all over the field the past 2 weeks - bloody tough ask for the youngster

Once again you have totally failed to grasp the concept of a rebuild. A rebuild is not bout winning games, it's about sacrificing a few wins to get games into kids and accelerate their development. Have a read of LLT's post. Also take a look at GC and then GWS. GWS went with the kids and they are now reaping the rewards, with a great foundation of kids having played games (not wins) to build on. Have a look what Dennis did when he tried to make us competitive by playing and recruiting more hardened senior rejects. He set us back years.

If you think the concept of a rebuild is flawed that's fine, but don't sit there and try to tell me a rebuild is all about winning games first and foremost because that is just plain rubbish.

Pushing all that to the side, you simply cannot argue that malthouse is building towards anything other than a big pile of shight, when the team continues to regress at a rate of knots. If he is in fact trying to do what you say, he is failing dismally and as well as getting the method wrong, he has totally missed the mark. He has to go, and he will go.

I wasn't arguing that the approach is a raging success  :))

But I think it is a better path than thinking a few games here and there being lost, but providing experience to young players is a good thing. Yes a young player will get 100 minutes of football. But in a side that he knows is not serious about winning. Seems a good way for players to then play for themselves and not the team. It creates self preservation and entitlement.

GWS and GC both had lists of young players and indeed were stacked to the gills with them. GWS have however put some more experience in, and not put too much store in a Gary Ablett type to generate success. It may be working as GC seem to be demonstrating some problems that comes from a bunch of talented juniors getting games and then not progressing and

There are a lot of moving parts in this caper so much to wrong and right. But a few clear consistant principles is one way to deal with this, i.e. picking the best team to win each week. Behave as you want to be and it might happen. 

The one I feel sorriest for is Whiley - Wile E is clearly not as fast as Carrazzo - he reminded me of Wile E Coyote - the way he chased Pendlebury and Beams all over the field the past 2 weeks - bloody tough ask for the youngster

If he's not as fast as Carrots and not a great kick, why is he here?

If he's not as fast as Carrots and not a great kick, why is he here?

The team is slow but the fans are not patient.

I wasn't arguing that the approach is a raging success  :))

But I think it is a better path than thinking a few games here and there being lost, but providing experience to young players is a good thing. Yes a young player will get 100 minutes of football. But in a side that he knows is not serious about winning. Seems a good way for players to then play for themselves and not the team. It creates self preservation and entitlement.

But who said the side wouldn't be serious about winning? You are serious every time you go out regardless of players picked. You are not focusing on losing by picking the kids, you are focusing on development, which is what a rebuild is.

GWS and GC both had lists of young players and indeed were stacked to the gills with them. GWS have however put some more experience in, and not put too much store in a Gary Ablett type to generate success. It may be working as GC seem to be demonstrating some problems that comes from a bunch of talented juniors getting games and then not progressing and

GC are struggling because they made a terrible decision at board level, much like us. GWS are progressing because they went with the kids early (whether by choice is up for debate) but the fact remains that those kids have now played around 60-70 games each and are ready to blossom. Getting the games into those kids, collectively, will make all the difference in the long run, whereas having lost all those games badly early will have made no difference at all.

You have failed to grasp the concept of a rebuild.

You still don't get it.

If you take a bunch of privileged rich kids, stick them in a prison with hardened criminals. Will they come out of it the same?

The environment of the club is having a detrimental effect on our players, staff and definitely the members/supporters.

Melbourne were tanking playing kids and everyone knew it....including the players. It bred a bad culture. A losing culture. Some of these kids wanted out as a result. Tom Scully being your #1 on that list! Roos is still trying to change that. No matter how many high draft picks they get, they are still trying to shake their past.

What we want to build or rebuild is our determination/confidence/integrity as much as our playing list. We need to rebuild our culture. Play players who play for the team. Get some wins. Introduce kids sparingly, be careful not to overload them (remember Kreuzer?) but reward effort!

Rebuilding is more than getting games into some kids.

But that is a major part of it. There's nothing to say you are not creating a winning culture just by going with the kids. That argument is just silly. You're effectively trying to deflect from what we're talking about here by trying to label it 'tanking'. There is a huge difference, but I'm sure you know that.

You still don't get it.

If you take a bunch of privileged rich kids, stick them in a prison with hardened criminals. Will they come out of it the same?

The environment of the club is having a detrimental effect on our players, staff and definitely the members/supporters.

Melbourne were tanking playing kids and everyone knew it....including the players. It bred a bad culture. A losing culture. Some of these kids wanted out as a result. Tom Scully being your #1 on that list! Roos is still trying to change that. No matter how many high draft picks they get, they are still trying to shake their past.

What we want to build or rebuild is our determination/confidence/integrity as much as our playing list. We need to rebuild our culture. Play players who play for the team. Get some wins. Introduce kids sparingly, be careful not to overload them (remember Kreuzer?) but reward effort!

Rebuilding is more than getting games into some kids.

Well said.

You still don't get it.

If you take a bunch of privileged rich kids, stick them in a prison with hardened criminals. Will they come out of it the same?

The environment of the club is having a detrimental effect on our players, staff and definitely the members/supporters.

Melbourne were tanking playing kids and everyone knew it....including the players. It bred a bad culture. A losing culture. Some of these kids wanted out as a result. Tom Scully being your #1 on that list! Roos is still trying to change that. No matter how many high draft picks they get, they are still trying to shake their past.

What we want to build or rebuild is our determination/confidence/integrity as much as our playing list. We need to rebuild our culture. Play players who play for the team. Get some wins. Introduce kids sparingly, be careful not to overload them (remember Kreuzer?) but reward effort!

Rebuilding is more than getting games into some kids.

Precisely.

It's a balancing act. Culture is imperative, critical. The Pagan years and Kreuzer Cup just about ruined our culture... it's a long road back from there.

If playing loads of kids is a recipe for success then why didn't GWS and Suns rip the league a new one from the get go? Successful club introduce newbies gradually and hopefully into a winning culture so they run out each week expecting to win, knowing how to win, understanding winning and what it takes. Introducing a newbie too early is a good way to crush his enthusiasm. Better a bloke has a week or two too many in the Magoos than come into senior footy too early - that's in an ideal world of minimal injuries and a great culture. We're creating a new culture and getting it right now is incredibly critical to our success in two, five ...ten years time.

It's a recipe for success for the future, not the present. Not rocket science.

Either way you spin it, the coach has failed dismally. No getting around that. Whatever he's trying to do, it's not working. I'm sure any rational person can clearly see that.

But that is a major part of it. There's nothing to say you are not creating a winning culture just by going with the kids. That argument is just silly. You're effectively trying to deflect from what we're talking about here by trying to label it 'tanking'. There is a huge difference, but I'm sure you know that.

Its about competition for spots.   Makes everyone raise the bar eventually.

It's taking a lot longer with us, but this year our Vfl team has more players from our afl team playing starring roles than any other year before save for when Teague was here.

Either way, factors such as age shouldn't be a reason to gift games to people.

Playing for this footy club is a privilege to be earned.

Step one is being recruited.  Step two is earning a game.  some have a harder road than others due to what is in front of them for a game.

Sometimes we can't figure it out, so we hope there is a rational explanation behind selection.

Choosing players based on merit is the only recipe for success.  Where it gets precarious is what everyone understands as merit.  What you and I see and what the player actually does can be very different and I expect the mc have various instructions they expect to be upheld.  

Either way you spin it, the coach has failed dismally. No getting around that. Whatever he's trying to do, it's not working. I'm sure any rational person can clearly see that.

Seems most rational people believe he aint got the cattle and the club's something of a cot case... in fact most rational people seem to believe that sticking with MM is the sensible thing to do. Can't say I agree with it, but that is the overwhelming opinion in the footy fraternity.

Was watching the game tonight and they had Swallow miked up. Was a good insight into the guy. I would love them to mike up Murph next Friday night. I would like o get a real insight into what he is like out on the ground. Just putting it out there.

Seems most rational people believe he aint got the cattle and the club's something of a cot case... in fact most rational people seem to believe that sticking with MM is the sensible thing to do. Can't say I agree with it, but that is the overwhelming opinion in the footy fraternity.

Are you talking about the footy media or actual football people?

The media nuffies rarely say the coach has to go, in fact they never do.

They just speculate .

Actual footy people I talk to reckon he's stuck in his ways and unable to adapt to the modern game.

Competition for spots... It's not exactly a hot competiton.

This is one of our best and most experienced teams. No excuses.

It's a recipe for success for the future, not the present. Not rocket science.

Sucess in the future can only be possible if a team starts to conduct itself in the way that it wants to be right now. Playing the kids is the mantra of the loser. It says we are not good enough now, so we hope that by gaining experience we will somehow get better. In a team sport that is a recipe for continued poor results. It nurtures an environment where losing in the present is acceptable in the hope that tomorrow will be better.

Know what?  Tomorrow never comes and losing begets losing. And bringing in ill prepared young players to such a mix retards their development. Senior players figure they can coast along as the team is in rebuild mode, and first round picks figure they get a game cause they 'need experience' but never fully grasp the level of commitment required to earn selection on merit. So let's all lose together and explain it away.

The best footy teams (like any succesful team in any walk of life) hate losing and are filthy about it when they do. It's great to learn from mistakes but once losing is acceptable for a team then the rot has set in and it spirals down. And the exchange of a team losing a few games for the gain of getting experience into individuals is a lousy trade off.

Anyway, rant over. Hoping for a good performance against the Giants. If our midfield work hard enough we may get a decent spread and some clean ball forward. We saw a couple of glimpses last week when this happened.

Sucess in the future can only be possible if a team starts to conduct itself in the way that it wants to be right now. Playing the kids is the mantra of the loser. It says we are not good enough now, so we hope that by gaining experience we will somehow get better. In a team sport that is a recipe for continued poor results. It nurtures an environment where losing in the present is acceptable in the hope that tomorrow will be better.

But then there's GWS that proves all that wrong. Losses in the past mean absolutely nothing once those boys get 80+ games into them.

Know what?  Tomorrow never comes and losing begets losing. And bringing in ill prepared young players to such a mix retards their development. Senior players figure they can coast along as the team is in rebuild mode, and first round picks figure they get a game cause they 'need experience' but never fully grasp the level of commitment required to earn selection on merit. So let's all lose together and explain it away.

That is a wishy washy argument based on assumption. Senior players feel they can coast? You're just clutching at straws now.

The best footy teams (like any succesful team in any walk of life) hate losing and are filthy about it when they do. It's great to learn from mistakes but once losing is acceptable for a team then the rot has set in and it spirals down. And the exchange of a team losing a few games for the gain of getting experience into individuals is a lousy trade off.

Once again, GWS proves this wrong. But also, once again you're assuming that teams will constantly lose when they pick the kids. St Kilda and Footscray are two examples in the current season that have bucked the trend, and when you look at our form, we could do not much worse.

Anyway, rant over. Hoping for a good performance against the Giants. If our midfield work hard enough we may get a decent spread and some clean ball forward. We saw a couple of glimpses last week when this happened.

I think we should account for GWS with this side myself, but if we play blokes like Boeky and Nick Graham we can still win and get these young blokes playing together for another game which will be of great importance down the track.

Get Mick away from this list before he does any further damage.

Sucess in the future can only be possible if a team starts to conduct itself in the way that it wants to be right now. Playing the kids is the mantra of the loser. It says we are not good enough now, so we hope that by gaining experience we will somehow get better. In a team sport that is a recipe for continued poor results. It nurtures an environment where losing in the present is acceptable in the hope that tomorrow will be better.

Know what?  Tomorrow never comes and losing begets losing. And bringing in ill prepared young players to such a mix retards their development. Senior players figure they can coast along as the team is in rebuild mode, and first round picks figure they get a game cause they 'need experience' but never fully grasp the level of commitment required to earn selection on merit. So let's all lose together and explain it away.

The best footy teams (like any succesful team in any walk of life) hate losing and are filthy about it when they do. It's great to learn from mistakes but once losing is acceptable for a team then the rot has set in and it spirals down. And the exchange of a team losing a few games for the gain of getting experience into individuals is a lousy trade off.

Anyway, rant over. Hoping for a good performance against the Giants. If our midfield work hard enough we may get a decent spread and some clean ball forward. We saw a couple of glimpses last week when this happened.

Yep. Smashed it out of the park.

Carrots, GWS are the exception not the rule. They built a side with the above ethos using many kids to compete for first team football as part of a long term project.

The comparison doesn't work for a team that played finals three years ago and has been where we are before.

I guess you need to visualise what you want to be and try to practice and strive at all times to achieve that. It should be all consuming. Leads to the conclusion that you should try to avoid losing at all costs, since that's where you don't want to be?

Carrots, GWS are the exception not the rule. They built a side with the above ethos using many kids to compete for first team football as part of a long term project.

How can they be the exception when the back to back premiers, amongst others, did it?

Yep. Smashed it out of the park.

Carrots, GWS are the exception not the rule. They built a side with the above ethos using many kids to compete for first team football as part of a long term project.

The comparison doesn't work for a team that played finals three years ago and has been where we are before.

Yes the comparison does work. Kids are kids, you either play them for the future or you don't. GWS played them for the future, got smashed many a time but are now building something big which completely contradicts the views of yourself and Vivian, about trying to win games instead of blooding the youth. No Hypothetical will change that. ;)

It's not hypothetical.

They built a team with young players whilst trying to win games.

They didn't drop Luke power whilst trying to blood youngsters, and have brought in mature recruits to make sure that spots are earned not gifted.

What you are advocating is quite different and is a hypothetical in itself.

Mind you this exact practice of gifting games to youngsters is exactly what we grumble about when Pagan sacked all our senior players realised his mistake too late tried to recruit some older leaders and the result is the Carlton Football Club as it exists today.

But you think it's going to be okay provided we sack the coach so I understand why this concept doesn't make sense to you.

Anyone going early to catch the magoos???

It's not hypothetical.

They built a team with young players whilst trying to win games.

They didn't drop Luke power whilst trying to blood youngsters, and have brought in mature recruits to make sure that spots are earned not gifted.

What you are advocating is quite different and is a hypothetical in itself.

Mind you this exact practice of gifting games to youngsters is exactly what we grumble about when Pagan sacked all our senior players realised his mistake too late tried to recruit some older leaders and the result is the Carlton Football Club as it exists today.

But you think it's going to be okay provided we sack the coach so I understand why this concept doesn't make sense to you.

There's a balance, you need older players to help in the transition. You know, experience.

The popular understanding of what is ostensively called a rebuild is flawed. Playing youngsters on the crieteria of being young, with potential and requiring experience is flawed if it is the primary basis for selection. When does it stop? And if it does, and a club then decides to suuddenly try and win games, it must change its criteria for selection.

Playing blokes for the sake of it, along with atrocious recruiting, has got us to where we are now.
Sean Hampson was on our list for 7 years and played 50+ games, how he managed to do either will forever remain a mystery to me.
This is Denis Armfield's 8th season and David Ellard's 7th, let that sink in for a while.
Rebuilds require solid bricks, and we don't have any.

It's not hypothetical.

They built a team with young players whilst trying to win games.

Which is exactly what we can do.

They didn't drop Luke power whilst trying to blood youngsters, and have brought in mature recruits to make sure that spots are earned not gifted.

You can have a mix no doubt, but playing blokes like Ellard and Armfield ahead of a Nick Graham is criminal, and far from creating a winning culture.

What you are advocating is quite different and is a hypothetical in itself.

How? Please explain.

Mind you this exact practice of gifting games to youngsters is exactly what we grumble about when Pagan sacked all our senior players realised his mistake too late tried to recruit some older leaders and the result is the Carlton Football Club as it exists today.

Absolute pure deflection at it's best. What exactly does this have to do with playing a bloke like Nick Graham?

But you think it's going to be okay provided we sack the coach so I understand why this concept doesn't make sense to you.

It's so funny, anything that questions Malthouse's methods you argue to the death. It's a losing argument. Let it go. He has failed, and he wont be here much longer. He will be remembered as a failure at Carlton, you can take that to the bank.

You can have a mix no doubt, but playing blokes like Ellard and Armfield ahead of a Nick Graham is criminal, and far from creating a winning culture.

While I agree that Armfield and Ellard are sub standard they are still on our senior list and it would send a terrible message to all the players if we told them that they wouldn't be considered for senior selection six rounds into a season.
Teams should be picked solely on merit in my opinion and if Ellard or Armfield have shown better form than Graham they should get the gig ahead of him, if players don't have to earn senior games they don't value them.
The young players who were dropped this week did squat against Brisbane although I thought that Smith and Buckley at least showed some initiative, so I think it's fair enough that they go back to the VFL and work hard to get back into the seniors.
I think it's a better balanced side this week and I'm hoping for a win.

Cripps out! Don't know any more yet.

Calf tightness - Ellard comes in.

No Cripps and maybe no Daisy

Which is exactly what we can do.

You can have a mix no doubt, but playing blokes like Ellard and Armfield ahead of a Nick Graham is criminal, and far from creating a winning culture.

How? Please explain.

Absolute pure deflection at it's best. What exactly does this have to do with playing a bloke like Nick Graham?

It's so funny, anything that questions Malthouse's methods you argue to the death. It's a losing argument. Let it go. He has failed, and he wont be here much longer. He will be remembered as a failure at Carlton, you can take that to the bank.

Mate, you argued playing kids because we were not trying to win.

Now you are just trying to change your argument.

Your contention is change the coach to win games because our gameplan is no good.

applying your argument to Nick Graham doesn't work.  He's done enough to play seniors and I don't know why he isn't playing but that is not a mutually exclusive point in this discussion.

After last Sunday, couldn't bring myself to go today. Will watch on Fox Footy.

Just heard Cripps is out, and they replace him with Ellard. Bugger me.

Nick Graham must have aids :-\ :-\

Or the Ebola virus. :( :(

Or leprosy.

Well someone's got it in for Graham. With Cripps out Graham would have been the logical choice... thankfully not Smith again, but Ellard!

Okay Nick, what did you flash at the coach's missus?

Nah, he just has two first names  ::) ::) ::) ;)

So who thinks carlton will beat gws now?

James Stewart..son of Pie Craig...one to think about...6'5"..nice skills, mobile and when Patton comes back he may be on the outer....

our OH&S has educated our guys very well to a point that they will not attack an opposition player for fear of injury or free, just attack to fnk ball!!!

Did Everitt really drop that mark?

Why don't we get our most successful coach in the last  ten years back! at least he was able to inspire some competitive spirit and game plan, Mick is my age - old and stubborn (trust me I know) he will not change

At least Bell has had a crack tonight = well done :)

A terrible score line. Mick might need to reconsider

Did Everitt really drop that mark?

has been very ordinary for three weeks

the GWS guy with the blonde wig has been very ordinary with his kicking luckily  :)

Can't believe we gave these guys our top pick last year.

EB... why would he want to leave GWS to join a rabble, with a clueless MC and a coach with less than no idea?

We won't be trading this year 'coz nobody in their right mind will want to join us.

we are fugged for a very long time.
worst list in the AFL.
rudderless 62 yo coach
board that has no clue
president thats a factional puppet.

Fugg off the lot of ya