This week at Ikon Park at 1130 Saturday. Interesting to see if Lauren Arnell plays, given that she has been traded for the AFLW season to Brisbane.
CARLTON v. DAREBIN
Round 5 – 02/06/2018 11:30AM
IKON Park
Carlton
B: 9. K. Harrington, 40. K. Harvey, 23. B. Kennedy
HB: 2. M. Keryk, 44. D. Pedersen, 56. C. Williams
C: 55. C. Dalton, 10. S. Hosking, 17. T. Lucas-Rodd
HF: 20. C. Bromage, 42. C. Hardeman, 90. B. Walker
F: 41. K. Cunico, 31. K. Shierlaw, 38. L. McCarthy
R: 16. B. Moody, 35. S. Li, 27. K. Cox
Int: 82. N. Burns, 11. J. Hosking, 45. R. King, 37. B. Schultz
Emg: 15. I. Gietzmann, 33. G. Green, 12. S. Last, 32. N. Plane
23P: 50. J. Borg
In: K. Shierlaw, S. Last, L. McCarthy, S. Li, N. Plane, C. Williams, T. Lucas-Rodd, B. Kennedy, D. Pedersen
Out: T. Hanks, L. Brazzale, R. Hicks, D. Vescio, L. Arnell, C. Moody
Darebin
B: 21. K. Roe, 27. S. Hogan, 35. L. Skipper
HB: 48. L. Jacobs, 14. M. McDonald, 15. A. Lister
C: 2. N. Callinan, 9. M. Eastman, 1. E. Honybun
HF: 26. T. Olcorn, 22. G. Hammond, 17. S. Simpson
F: 8. N. Exon, 43. H. Mouncey, 11. K. Tyndall
R: 40. L. Pearce, 20. M. Guerin, 7. L. Mithen
Int: 32 G. Colvin, 12. J. Dal pos, 44. S. Fairchild, 49. R. Hibbert
Emg: 37. J. Bertoni, 31. E. Gardner, 28. A. Morrow, 29. S. Normington – Dickens, 52. A. Pronesti
23P: 56. M. Wilson
In: K. Roe, A. Morrow, J. Dal pos, R. Hibbert, S. Normington – Dickens, A. Pronesti, M. Wilson
Out: L. Szigeti, K. Paxman
Whats wrong with Vescio? Not allowed to play against her old club?
Whats wrong with Vescio? Not allowed to play against her old club?
Good question. I don't have a good answer at this point. 4 goals last week shows how good she is.
I thought I'd heard the AFL team took Vescio to Sydney with them for a function.
We could have done with her on the field. Darebin won by 8 goals. We only kicked 3 goals for the game.
Carlton 1.1-7 1.1-7 3.4-22 3.5-23
Darebin 3.0-18 6.2-38 8.4-52 11.6-72
This is not good. Two quarters without a single goal.
CARLTON
Goal Kickers: S. Li, K. Shierlaw, C. Hardeman
Best Players: K. Harrington, D. Pedersen, K. Harvey, S. Hosking, M. Keryk, C. Bromage
DAREBIN
Goal Kickers: H. Mouncey 3, M. Guerin 2, N. Exon, M. Wilson, K. Tyndall, E. Gardner, G. Hammond, S. Simpson
Best Players: N. Exon, J. Dal pos, M. Guerin, K. Tyndall, L. Pearce, A. Lister
I worry this Mouncey thing isn't going to end well.
Assuming Mouncey is free of injury, fit and of sound mind she could effectively become unstoppable. If that happens other clubs will start actively searching for and recruiting trans-gender athletes to compete against her. For example with the Mouncey decision, there are transitioned Ex.NBA athletes who are free to pursue an AFLW career, deny them and the AFL will be labeled prejudiced or even worse racist!
The good will of the girls who welcomed Mouncey to AFLW will be tested to the extreme as they or their associates are displaced from the sport they only just won the right to earn a living in!
That's when AFLW fans will start to switch off, the dreams of their daughters shattered!
Sounds extreme doesn't it, but it's not that far over the horizon!
On the other side of this coin, can you imagine the outcry if a transitioned athlete heading in the other direction manages to make it into AFL, and then gets cleaned up by a Mumford or Robinson type player live on air?
What changes to the rules and game will the AFL issue to ensure that doesn't happen?
This decision should have been left in the hands of the genes, that is a natural line of demarcation that cannot be debated!
I worry this Mouncey thing isn't going to end well.
Assuming Mouncey is free of injury, fit and of sound mind she could effectively become unstoppable. If that happens other clubs will start actively searching for and recruiting trans-gender athletes to compete against her. For example with the Mouncey decision, there are transitioned Ex.NBA athletes who are free to pursue an AFLW career, deny them and the AFL will be labeled prejudiced or even worse racist!
The good will of the girls who welcomed Mouncey to AFLW will be tested to the extreme as they or their associates are displaced from the sport they only just won the right to earn a living in!
That's when AFLW fans will start to switch off, the dreams of their daughters shattered!
Sounds extreme doesn't it, but it's not that far over the horizon!
On the other side of this coin, can you imagine the outcry if a transitioned athlete heading in the other direction manages to make it into AFL, and then gets cleaned up by a Mumford or Robinson type player live on air?
What changes to the rules and game will the AFL issue to ensure that doesn't happen?
This decision should have been left in the hands of the genes, that is a natural line of demarcation that cannot be debated!
I welcome it.
Only when things become "unfair" will sanity be restored.
The trans movement is an identity disorder, and should be treated as such and not entertained in the fashion we currently do, and only when people accept that people cannot actually transition gender will we make any real progress on this front.
The other part of it, is that its simply kept out of sports. People can go trans after their sporting career is over, but they can't have it both ways so to speak.
The other part of it, is that its simply kept out of sports. People can go trans after their sporting career is over, but they can't have it both ways so to speak.
I'd have no problem if Mouncey transitioned and was then drafted by an AFL team, that would intrinsically have an equality about the events. There is nothing equal about Mouncey playing AFLW. There is a directionality to all this that seems fair and reasonable!
The legal forked tongues have made things worse not better, they argue that they are progressive, but their tactics differ little from those who argued a woman was a witch if she floats!
The politically correct are basically arguing for a change in the arrow of time, if they say it's true it must be so, their opinion is all that matters and words can change reality!
All this reminds me of Plato and Aristotle, I believe Plato thought vision was the product of beams emitted by our eyes, yet Plato never pondered in relation to this belief our inability to see in the dark, Aristotle kindly pointed that out! Plato missed the obvious!
Let the flat earth rule! ;D
I welcome it.
Only when things become "unfair" will sanity be restored.
The trans movement is an identity disorder, and should be treated as such and not entertained in the fashion we currently do, and only when people accept that people cannot actually transition gender will we make any real progress on this front.
The other part of it, is that its simply kept out of sports. People can go trans after their sporting career is over, but they can't have it both ways so to speak.
Gender is not binary Thry. It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.
Gender is not binary Thry. It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.
For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!
Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?
I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment
they control and profit from the debate!No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!
DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!
For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!
Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?
I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!
No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!
DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!
Gender is a social construct, sex is binary.
Personally, I agree with Chris Judd, I don't think Hannah should be allowed to play in the AFLW. Whilst her testosterone levels may be adequate according to world sporting bodies, I don't think they have quite figured out yet what those levels should realistically be. I think it hurts the image and integrity of the competition which is still in its infancy. It already annoys me that so much attention is made of this issue when we're trying to get as much positive publicity for the women who have been working forwards this for decades. Hannah needs to check her former white male privilege at the door and realise that a lot of these women have not had the opportunity to compete at the highest level of their chosen sport (as Hannah did pre-trans in Handball), so it's time to put the greater good of the sport ahead of her own wants and desires. Welcome to the sisterhood Hannah, sometimes being a woman kind of sucks balls.
Gender is not binary Thry. It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.
I don't know about this theory but I've entertained it and personally have rejected it.
My issue isn't the theory it's the practice.
In practice the non binary suffer as much angst and statistics show that suicide rates are just as high as the unhappy binaries.
Moral of the story is that we need to teach people how to accept the unchangeable. Genetics and biology has its shortfalls but this has moved beyond what people call a gender construct and has resulted in a trans construct.
Where I think it falls over is the definition of male and female. Hannah is a male in every way we all are just prefers to think of themselves as a female.
That's a brain issue not a biological one. Teach her to be happy in herself as a male and you increase the chance she will find happiness. Or you can let her be a parody of what she believes is a female even though it's just a bloke wearing a skirt, and you end up annoying everyone.
For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!
Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?
I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!
No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!
DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!
That’s not entirely true LP. I have excavated several burials where it was not possible to confidently identify the sex of the individual. Gracile male skeletons are often misidentified as female and robust female skeletons are misidentified as male. However, I would imagine that Mouncey’s skeletal attributes would indicate male.
As for DNA:
Biological phenomena don't necessarily fit into human-ordained binary categories. So while humans insist that you're either male or female – that you have either XY or XX sex chromosomes – biology begs to differ.
For example, genetic men with Klinefelter syndrome possess an extra X chromosome (XXY) or more rarely, two or three extra Xs (XXXY, XXXXY); they typically produce low levels of testosterone, leading to less-developed masculine sexual characteristics and more-developed feminine characteristics than other men. In contrast, some men receive an extra Y chromosome (XYY) in the genetic lottery, and while they have been referred to as "supermales" that is more sensationalism than science.
Genetic women with Turner syndrome have only one X chromosome; they often display less-developed female sexual characteristics than other women. And people with a genetic mosaic possess XX chromosomes in some cells and XY in others. So how do we determine if they're male or female? Hint: Don't say that it depends on the chromosomal makeup of the majority of their cells, since women with more than 90 per cent XY genetic material have given birth.
Even if you get the "right" combination of sex chromosomes, it's no guarantee that you'll fit into the carefully circumscribed human definitions of male and female.
For example, genetic women (XX) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia produced unusually high levels of virilizing hormones in utero and develop stereotypically masculine sexual characteristics, including masculinized genitals.
It’s not quite as clear cut as some folk may think ...
It’s not quite as clear cut as some folk may think ...
Firstly, I'd appreciate the source of the quotes.
Interested parties can take the exceptions in any case and try to argue they are the norm, but that is just another example of misleading and deceptive behaviour. Talking about the 1 in 1000 or 1 in 5000 is not discussing the average punter is it?
I'm not sure Turner Syndrome even as a 1 in 5000 example is relevant as they do have X chromosomes but they certainly do not have a Y!
I'm not anti-Mouncey, she can play in the AFL all she likes, she is physically big and strong enough to compete with the men!
I never get a valid answer to a couple of very simple questions;
- Is it fair for Mouncey to be displacing genetically born females from a spot on a AFLW list?
- What sort of advice should someone who has a lightly framed little daughter offer their daughter about her dreams to become an AFLW player?
- Is this Mouncey situation fair on the aspiring genetically female athletes, what are they to be measured against?
- Is there no risk that in the long term Mouncey types will dominate the AFLW?
As a defense to some of the above questions some will come out and claim the female athletes don't mind. But it's clear in the current political environment they are not in a position to be able to publicly oppose it without actual risking their own career and welfare!
The quote is from an article titled “Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again” written by Peter McNight and published in the Globe and Mail, 4 Jun 2015 (updated 15 May 2018).
There are many other scientific articles addressing the myriad conditions that blur our concepts of gender.
I’ll have a go at answering your questions.
1. I would have to know the basis for Mouncey’s gender re-assignment. She may well be genetically female. However, I share your concerns about the advantages her maturing as a male gives her over the majority of VFLW players. I’m not sure that she is good enough to play AFLW but that’s based on second hand observations.
2. Go for it!
3. Remember the transgender tennis player? She was going to ruin women’s tennis but hardly fired a shot. Apart from size and residual strength acquired as a maturing male, I don’t think that the Mouncey situation is unfair to aspiring female athletes. Other factors, such as leadership, team membership, ability, determination and mental health should level the playing field.
4. No. I don’t believe that blokes will undergo gender reassignment to cash in on women’s footy or any other sports.
The quote is from an article titled “Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again” written by Peter McNight and published in the Globe and Mail, 4 Jun 2015 (updated 15 May 2018).
Isn't McNight famous for writing an article titled, "There is no such thing as a natural born woman!"
But again, McNight makes use of circumstances when things go genetically wrong to justify his stance, it makes him come across almost as a gender denier. But again his whole stance is built on minority circumstances.
There are many other scientific articles addressing the myriad conditions that blur our concepts of gender.
Again, when things go wrong for any number of associated reasons will not a suitable standards to use in this case.
I’ll have a go at answering your questions.
1. I would have to know the basis for Mouncey’s gender re-assignment. She may well be genetically female. However, I share your concerns about the advantages her maturing as a male gives her over the majority of VFLW players. I’m not sure that she is good enough to play AFLW but that’s based on second hand observations.
Mouncey is a former male Olympic / Commonwealth games athlete, an athlete who competed in conditions that required gender clarification. Was it wrong then?
Again don't use the something was maybe wrong argument, it's not relevant.
2. Go for it!
3. Remember the transgender tennis player? She was going to ruin women’s tennis but hardly fired a shot. Apart from size and residual strength acquired as a maturing male, I don’t think that the Mouncey situation is unfair to aspiring female athletes. Other factors, such as leadership, team membership, ability, determination and mental health should level the playing field.
Not a contact sport and not relevant, it's like arguing against trans-gender ten pin bowling participants.
What hope that little girl if she collides with a Mouncey type during a contact sport?
4. No. I don’t believe that blokes will undergo gender reassignment to cash in on women’s footy or any other sports.
Maybe not, but if they were former male athletes and they have re-assigned why not join in? I won't at all be surprised to find some failed NBA athlete who has re-assigned decide that a good living can be made in the AFLW, after all isn't that exactly what Mouncey is, a failed male Olympic /Commonwealth games athlete now re-assigned for whatever reason and joining in the AFLW?
I don't give a stuff about Mouncey's welfare, whether she plays or doesn't, but I do feel sorry for her in the circumstance. My major worry is about the genetically female 54kg athlete who is going to compete against a transitioned athlete with 20 or 30 years of testosterone driven bone and muscle development to build an AFLW career on. What happens after the fact is almost but not totally irrelevant, at least we seem to agree on that!
I haven't really followed her career but is she....
a) dominating at the level she is currently playing at.
b) causing physical damage to other players due to her size and strength.
I haven't really followed her career but is she....
a) dominating at the level she is currently playing at.
b) causing physical damage to other players due to her size and strength.
Coaches are using her very strategically, in that respect the circumstance seems to be not a pure test! I suspect this is not necessarily from the concerns I express, but more to do with Mouncey's personal situation or state of mind.
But will things remain like that as AFLW wages grow?
At the moment AFLW is not a living wage, it's barely costs+, but eventually maybe long after Mouncey's time it will be a significant living and I suspect at that time things won't be treated so delicately!
It's obvious the Mouncey decision isn't just about Mouncey, at the moment AFLW is dominated by LGBTIQAP, and so the Mouncey situation has some significant traction. But should that also be the case in determining the rules of a womens competition?
Money does change things, there's fair and reasonable then there is this,
(https://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/xxx-7800-3_4_rx512_c380x510.jpg)
This woman took up college basketball as a 50 year old transitioned player, how is that fair to some girl fighting for a spot in a college basketball team?
Eventually, there will be AFLW equivalents of that, and we should be very concerned about how the public reacts when it sees Mouncey on an AFLW broadcast next to your typical AFLW player. A 52 year old former male able to compete with college age female athletes, even ignoring the size difference that is just not right!
As a 64 year old male athlete I'm struggling to keep up with similarly aged female athletes ;D ::)
Age is a big leveller ;)
Isn't McNight famous for writing an article titled, "There is no such thing as a natural born woman!"
But again, McNight makes use of circumstances when things go genetically wrong to justify his stance, it makes him come across almost as a gender denier. But again his whole stance is built on minority circumstances.
Again, when things go wrong for any number of associated reasons will not a suitable standards to use in this case.
Regardless of McNight's personal views, facts are facts. The World Health Organisation is clearly part of the one world government conspiracy funded by the IMF, Israel and the banks but I suspect that they are reporting facts too:
Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.
The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.
Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender.
Mouncey is a former male Olympic / Commonwealth games athlete, an athlete who competed in conditions that required gender clarification. Was it wrong then?
In fact Mouncey is not an Olympic/Commonwealth Games athlete, but she may well become one in women's handball:
President of Handball Victoria Kirsten Lange said she was proud to be part of such an inclusive sport, which she said was growing every year.
"All players come in all shapes and sizes. As a taller or maybe a bigger player, it is difficult. Hannah is a bit taller, she jumps a bit higher. Therefore you need to go out further, quicker in order to stop her."
Mouncey's strength and size are not seen as an unfair advantage, though, rather just other aspects for opponents to take into account when facing her on the court.
"So I think it's just a matter of finding a handball skill to stop her. We don't have a problem with that. We have other players who may be a bit larger in size as well and we have to stop them," Ms Lange said.
Not a contact sport and not relevant, it's like arguing against trans-gender ten pin bowling participants.
Not relevant by what criteria. The arguments you are making are exactly what was said about Renée Richards and they came to nothing.
What hope that little girl if she collides with a Mouncey type during a contact sport?
What hope that little girl if she collides with Erin Phillips, Alison Downie, Sarah Perkins or Sabrina Frederick-Traub?
In fact, what hope Paddy Dow if he collides with Aaron Sandilands?
Maybe not, but if they were former male athletes and they have re-assigned why not join in? I won't at all be surprised to find some failed NBA athlete who has re-assigned decide that a good living can be made in the AFLW, after all isn't that exactly what Mouncey is, a failed male Olympic /Commonwealth games athlete now re-assigned for whatever reason and joining in the AFLW?
I'm sure that there are plenty of sports where a lot more money can be made than what AFLW player earns. I don't see a lot of failed male athletes rushing to undergo gender re-assignment so they can make a killing in any sport, contact or non-contact.
I don't give a stuff about Mouncey's welfare, whether she plays or doesn't, but I do feel sorry for her in the circumstance. My major worry is about the genetically female 54kg athlete who is going to compete against a transitioned athlete with 20 or 30 years of testosterone driven bone and muscle development to build an AFLW career on. What happens after the fact is almost but not totally irrelevant, at least we seem to agree on that!
I don't particularly give a stuff about Mouncey's welfare either. I just want to add a little balance to a debate that has largely ignored the subtleties of sex and gender.
DJC this stuff is largely construct based ideology.
Sure biology will come to the party in a few cases per thousand (to quote your stats), but even so in these individuals we still end up with generally males and females who are simply rejecting that they might be one way in order to explore the other.
I work with a trans guy who calls himself a female lesbian. In his case very similar to Hannah. I'm accepting of the fact that these people want to put on a dress, and will entertain the idea but nothing about these people screams female to me, and by the looks of things I'd be gobsmacked if they were even tenuously female genetically.
Mental health is very much theory based and hasn't progressed as far as people think it has, and I think there is a genuine mental health issue regarding how we arrive at trans being an option. It's not a real option. They wear a gender construct identity based on irrational feelings of what might make them happy in the belief they know what it is to be the opposite gender which involves placing a gender into the definition of a stereotype.
The thought process behind being trans is even more flawed than biology is IMHO because of how we arrive at the "I'm a male born in the wrong body" and vice versa.
You were born this way.
Thry, one of my former colleagues did a PhD on sex and gender and I must admit that my eyes glazed over when she tried to explain her conclusions.
I have little idea of the relationship between chromosome abnormality and transgender but, from a couple of case studies I have seen/read, there is a biological basis for at least some gender reassignments.
It’s not as clear cut (no pun) as it may seem, regardless of one’s point of view.
Is it not as simple as ensuring that any gender reassignment has to begin before puberty to ensure, as Juddy points out, you don't get the testosterone benefit before transitioning?
That is have your hormone blockers before the testosterone can have an irreversible physical effect on your body.
Of course you are welcome to have them after that in your life, but would be excluded from womens sport.
Thry, one of my former colleagues did a PhD on sex and gender and I must admit that my eyes glazed over when she tried to explain her conclusions.
I have little idea of the relationship between chromosome abnormality and transgender but, from a couple of case studies I have seen/read, there is a biological basis for at least some gender reassignments.
It’s not as clear cut (no pun) as it may seem, regardless of one’s point of view.
I don't doubt it. We know of hermaphrodites as an example.
Where I want to challenge this field is to discourage re-assignment surgery.
Why?
Why do it?
Accept your biology. Accept that you don't fit in a box of one or the other. Don't transition. its impossible and you become neither.
DJC, you keep arguing that
a few births in a thousand is the good basis for this Mouncey situation, when it is clearly not!
In that 1000 there are hundreds of other females who will never play AFLW for any number of reasons, Mouncey's story should be one of them, there should not be special rules put in place for the minorities and exceptions!
As a 64 year old male athlete I'm struggling to keep up with similarly aged female athletes ;D ::)
Age is a big leveller ;)
And yet Lods, a 52 year old transition college professor competes head to head with teenage female athletes!
Isn't that a clear sign of inequity?
DJC, you keep arguing that a few births in a thousand is the good basis for this Mouncey situation, when it is clearly not!
In that 1000 there are hundreds of other females who will never play AFLW for any number of reasons, Mouncey's story should be one of them, there should not be special rules put in place for the minorities and exceptions!
And yet Lods, a 52 year old transition college professor competes head to head with teenage female athletes!
Isn't that a clear sign of inequity?
I don't believe that I am arguing any such thing LP. I don't know why Mouncey decided to undergo gender re-assignment but it is reasonable to assume that it may have been in response to biological circumstances. After all, chromosome abnormalities occur in about 0.5 to 1 per cent of all live births, and that's much more than a few births in a thousand. Of course, chromosome abnormalities aren't the only reasons why the gender assigned to children at birth doesn't pan out in adulthood. The point I am making is that your hypothesis that failed male athletes will undergo gender re-assignment for financial gain simply doesn't stack up.
Is it not as simple as ensuring that any gender reassignment has to begin before puberty to ensure, as Juddy points out, you don't get the testosterone benefit before transitioning?
That is have your hormone blockers before the testosterone can have an irreversible physical effect on your body.
Of course you are welcome to have them after that in your life, but would be excluded from womens sport.
There's merit in this approach but it assumes that the individual will know whether they are male or female before puberty and that may be asking too much. I have read of cases where little Johnny or little Betty has known that their assigned gender is wrong while they are in their first decade ... but what if they have got it wrong?
It is Pandora's box of worms and I'm glad that I'm not responsible for coming up with a workable solution. However, the sooner we move on from stereotypical gender classifications the better.
There's merit in this approach but it assumes that the individual will know whether they are male or female before puberty and that may be asking too much. I have read of cases where little Johnny or little Betty has known that their assigned gender is wrong while they are in their first decade ... but what if they have got it wrong?
It is Pandora's box of worms and I'm glad that I'm not responsible for coming up with a workable solution. However, the sooner we move on from stereotypical gender classifications the better.
It doesn't assume anything.
If they are aware of it early on in life, no harm no foul.
If they don't know about it until later in life, sorry, sucks to be you, but we can't help you.
That way it is back on them, not on the AFL.
How many cases will this effect over the next decade? Probably none anyway.
After all, chromosome abnormalities occur in about 0.5 to 1 per cent of all live births, and that's much more than a few births in a thousand.
Isn't it the XY chromosomes we are worried about, not the other few dozen?
Most XY abnormalities fall in the 1:1000 ratio or much much higher, which by my maths is 0.1% or less!
The point I am making is that your hypothesis that failed male athletes will undergo gender re-assignment for financial gain simply doesn't stack up.
Who said failed, and who said they would re-assign to participate in a sport, why couldn't they re-assign then decide to participate?
Their are already athletes who post their professional career have gender re-assigned, and they will be free to join another sport as a female under these rules.
In the extreme we could hypothesise a Le Bron James could transition at 35 and becomes an AFLW player at say 40 with physical abilities far beyond the reach of the females in the competition! The fact the possibility exists for any transition male to do this it makes mockery of the sport!
I'm not so certain about your claim nobody would do this, India's eunuchs being a very good example of voluntary gender re-assignment for religion or for profit! What was Caitlyn Jenner's motive, mental health, sexual identification or lifestyle?
Finally, Carlton participate in Carlton Repsects, but for the born female athletes joining AFLW, where is the respect for them in this debate, why are they not allowed to compete against others on equal terms, does respect only apply to people in a minority?
For the life of me I cannot see the problem. Why was AFLW started? Because many females wanted to play footy and it wasn't fair to them to pit girls/women against blokes. So we gathered enough females together to start a separate comp. Where are the other transgenders who want to play footy so that they can have their own comp?
I think a lot of this discussion is driven by religious/homophobic idealology.
@NB, Mouncey should be free to play all the AFL she likes, it's Mouncey playing AFLW I have a problem with! I'm sure there are plenty of gay AFL players, it's people using terms like those in your post that stops them being more public about it! )
If Mouncey can play AFLW after more than two decades of testosterone driven musculoskeletal development, why ban testosterone as a PED? Why can't all the AFLW girls get on testosterone? Why wouldn't some megalomaniac parent place their teenage daughter on testosterone PEDs for a few years well ahead of their AFLW career?
I think a lot of this discussion is driven by religious/homophobic idealology.
Inference you.
I have no issues with anything in particular, but I have a couple of problems I am having with the ideology coming from the LBGTI community.
#Bornthisway unless you are trans, in which case, then you are what you feel you are....
Combine that with mental health being far too fledgling, then I have real issues with the realm of gender disphoria, and how we as a society have arrived at the solution being, you can be whatever you feel. It stems from a "i don't fit the male/female stereotype, but I think I would be more comfortable as the other stereotype".
News flash, there is no such thing as normal. Some blokes wear dresses (or kilts) and like girly things. Some women wear pants, and dislike girly things and would rather be one of the boys. This doesnt make them a different gender, it just makes them a bit different, and that needs to be accepted, rather than rejected from one club because they are more like the other.
In a very small minority, (DJC's stats) there is genuine scope for a bit of I broke the mould, but its less than 1/100th of a percent and with a little bit more open mindedness surounding gender identities, we should find that we get more people happily identifying with the appropriate gender if we don't focus on blokes being super blokey as a norm, and women being super girly as a norm (Think Ken and Barbie). These people are an extreme in their own right.
My argument comes from a more inclusive perspective, not based on any religious or homophobic ideology. The problem I have, is that we should focus on people rather than how we group them as that is when we truly become inclusive. Gender is tied to identity, in a way that sexuality isn't, and frankly we don't need to know about people's sexuality to accept them for who or what they are. The liberation movement has gone too far and can be quite distasteful and that applies to heterosexual people as well as this community. I hear some of the chatter from the early teenagers and they are highly inappropriate and I think that's to do with where we have arrived as a society. Its not the way forward. We need to re-establish some decorum.
I do not get the "equality" part of the pro-Mouncey arguments, because it may be "gender equality" but it's clearly not "physical equality"!
You could argue allowing Hanna Mouncey to play against smaller lightweight opponents is almost anathema to equality!
As a friend of mine half-joked at the weekend, one good thing to come out of this situation. Any girl playing AFLW that survives a physical collision/confrontation with Mouncey has a very good case to argue for her permission to nominate for the AFL!
I hope SOS is watching, because a good chunk of our AFL list probably wouldn't survive a collision with Mouncey all that well!
I do not get the "equality" part of the pro-Mouncey arguments, because it may be "gender equality" but it's clearly not "physical equality"!
You could argue allowing Hanna Mouncey to play against smaller lightweight opponents is almost anathema to equality!
As a friend of mine half-joked at the weekend, one good thing to come out of this situation. Any girl playing AFLW that survives a physical collision/confrontation with Mouncey has a very good case to argue for her permission to nominate for the AFL!
I hope SOS is watching, because a good chunk of our AFL list probably wouldn't survive a collision with Mouncey all that well!
Thank you for allaying my fears about your prejudices, so what you are saying is if Hannah weighed 50kg you would be her biggest fanboi.
I think DJC made mention of someone the size of our young 25 meeting Sandilands head on...
obviously no problem to you ????????
Thank you for allaying my fears about your prejudices, so what you are saying is if Hannah weighed 50kg you would be her biggest fanboi.
I think DJC made mention of someone the size of our young 25 meeting Sandilands head on...
obviously no problem to you ????????
Our young 25 Fisher competing and colliding with the girls would not be fair either! ;)
Our young 25 Fisher competing and colliding with the girls would not be fair either! ;)
Weight divisions now... ?
Sheeds just rang, he’s proud of you ! ????????
Weight divisions now... ?
Sheeds just rang, he’s proud of you ! ????????
The exact opposite really.
An entity can debate using any number of voices, but it won't improve their accuracy!
You can try and paint me however you like but you have no idea who you are corresponding with, what my background is or who I socialise with. You're just trying to make slurs instead of debating the issues, "Post Truth" era Internet mudslinging is not going to resolve this debate. Using those tactics is just exposing your own fears, prejudices and paranoias!
Zac Fisher, Alex Marcou, Greg Williams, Caleb Daniel, size is basically irrelevant in the issue. But if you want to discuss it, Zac Fisher is above the average size of an AFLW competitor yet not as big as the biggest, but he'd be stronger than the biggest of the girls, faster than the fastest, more aggressive than probably any. It would be completely inequitable to the competitors in the AFLW if any of the men listed above were allowed to play in the AFLW competition, no matter what size they are! Yet perhaps not in Mouncey's case! ;)
The girls would be intimidated playing against the men if the men competed to the limit of their physical ability and aggression, maybe Mouncey won't play as intensely as she potentially could, maybe Mouncey will dial it back, what then the integrity of the competition? Mickey Mouse might be a good description, why watch it, why even have it!
If by some stroke of bad luck Mouncey has a heavy collision with a fellow competitor, and that competitor is severely injured, regardless of Mouncey's welfare, size or gender identification, the competition will probably be compromised in the eyes of the general public! Minority demands and desires will have little or no impact on the political outcome or the major sponsors dollar.
As much as it would be nice for an inclusive ideology to win the day, what is to stop the AFLW teams actively recruiting transitioned East Germans, African Americans or West Indians, the world is available to clubs. Despite a lack of skills and experience, within a few seasons many of the local girls would be effectively become obsolete. Those debating the Moucney cause will claim that it will never happen, but they are burying their head in the sand.
I've even read one blog comment along the lines that foreigners wouldn't be accepted by the competition. What sort of counter-argument is that, the allegation is that the AFLW girls will band together and ostracize an import, they will never accept them, it's ironic that putting an import in conventry is suggested as a solution, at best it is discriminatory at worst xenophobic!
It won't happen, but it will once money is involved, best tell Mason Cox or Mike Pyke, the AFL already imports international athletes to compete with and against the experienced locals on far more equitable terms than transitioned men versus females!
Some argue the AFLW money is not enough of a reason, but arguing that just exposes an ignorance on the difficulty life and earning a living can be for a transitioned male, AFLW wages even at the current levels would appear to some transitioned males as a pot of gold!
Does Mouncey playing AFLW resolve any of her identity issues, is this what this whole debate is about?