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VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

This week at Ikon Park at 1130 Saturday. Interesting to see if Lauren Arnell plays, given that she has been traded for the AFLW season to Brisbane.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #1
CARLTON  v. DAREBIN

Round 5 – 02/06/2018  11:30AM
IKON Park

Carlton

B: 9. K. Harrington, 40. K. Harvey, 23. B. Kennedy
HB: 2. M. Keryk, 44. D. Pedersen, 56. C. Williams
C: 55. C.  Dalton, 10. S.  Hosking, 17. T.  Lucas-Rodd
HF: 20. C. Bromage, 42. C. Hardeman, 90. B. Walker
F: 41. K. Cunico, 31. K. Shierlaw, 38. L. McCarthy
R: 16. B. Moody, 35. S. Li, 27. K. Cox
Int: 82. N. Burns, 11. J. Hosking, 45. R. King, 37. B. Schultz

Emg: 15. I. Gietzmann, 33. G. Green, 12. S. Last, 32. N. Plane

23P: 50. J. Borg

In: K. Shierlaw, S. Last, L. McCarthy, S. Li, N. Plane, C. Williams, T. Lucas-Rodd, B. Kennedy, D. Pedersen

Out: T. Hanks,  L. Brazzale,  R. Hicks,  D. Vescio,  L. Arnell,  C. Moody


Darebin

B: 21. K. Roe, 27. S. Hogan, 35. L. Skipper
HB: 48. L. Jacobs, 14. M. McDonald, 15. A. Lister
C: 2. N.  Callinan, 9. M.  Eastman, 1. E.  Honybun
HF: 26. T. Olcorn, 22. G. Hammond, 17. S. Simpson
F: 8. N. Exon, 43. H. Mouncey, 11. K. Tyndall
R: 40. L. Pearce, 20. M. Guerin, 7. L. Mithen
Int: 32 G. Colvin, 12. J. Dal pos, 44. S. Fairchild, 49. R. Hibbert
Emg: 37. J. Bertoni, 31. E. Gardner, 28. A. Morrow, 29. S. Normington – Dickens, 52. A. Pronesti

23P: 56. M. Wilson

In: K. Roe, A. Morrow, J. Dal pos, R. Hibbert, S. Normington – Dickens, A. Pronesti, M. Wilson

Out: L. Szigeti, K. Paxman
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #2
Whats wrong with Vescio? Not allowed to play against her old club?

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #3
Whats wrong with Vescio? Not allowed to play against her old club?
Good question. I don't have a good answer at this point. 4 goals last week shows how good she is.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #4
I thought I'd heard the AFL team took Vescio to Sydney with them for a function.
The Force Awakens!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #5
We could have done with her on the field. Darebin won by 8 goals. We only kicked 3 goals for the game.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #6
Carlton   1.1-7   1.1-7   3.4-22   3.5-23
Darebin   3.0-18   6.2-38   8.4-52   11.6-72

This is not good. Two quarters without a single goal.

CARLTON
Goal Kickers: S. Li, K. Shierlaw, C. Hardeman
Best Players: K. Harrington, D. Pedersen, K. Harvey, S. Hosking, M. Keryk, C. Bromage

DAREBIN
Goal Kickers: H. Mouncey 3, M. Guerin 2, N. Exon, M. Wilson, K. Tyndall, E. Gardner, G. Hammond, S. Simpson
Best Players: N. Exon, J. Dal pos, M. Guerin, K. Tyndall, L. Pearce, A. Lister
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #7
I worry this Mouncey thing isn't going to end well.

Assuming Mouncey is free of injury, fit and of sound mind she could effectively become unstoppable. If that happens other clubs will start actively searching for and recruiting trans-gender athletes to compete against her. For example with the Mouncey decision, there are transitioned Ex.NBA athletes who are free to pursue an AFLW career, deny them and the AFL will be labeled prejudiced or even worse racist!

The good will of the girls who welcomed Mouncey to AFLW will be tested to the extreme as they or their associates are displaced from the sport they only just won the right to earn a living in!

That's when AFLW fans will start to switch off, the dreams of their daughters shattered!

Sounds extreme doesn't it, but it's not that far over the horizon!

On the other side of this coin, can you imagine the outcry if a transitioned athlete heading in the other direction manages to make it into AFL, and then gets cleaned up by a Mumford or Robinson type player live on air?

What changes to the rules and game will the AFL issue to ensure that doesn't happen?

This decision should have been left in the hands of the genes, that is a natural line of demarcation that cannot be debated!
The Force Awakens!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #8
I worry this Mouncey thing isn't going to end well.

Assuming Mouncey is free of injury, fit and of sound mind she could effectively become unstoppable. If that happens other clubs will start actively searching for and recruiting trans-gender athletes to compete against her. For example with the Mouncey decision, there are transitioned Ex.NBA athletes who are free to pursue an AFLW career, deny them and the AFL will be labeled prejudiced or even worse racist!

The good will of the girls who welcomed Mouncey to AFLW will be tested to the extreme as they or their associates are displaced from the sport they only just won the right to earn a living in!

That's when AFLW fans will start to switch off, the dreams of their daughters shattered!

Sounds extreme doesn't it, but it's not that far over the horizon!

On the other side of this coin, can you imagine the outcry if a transitioned athlete heading in the other direction manages to make it into AFL, and then gets cleaned up by a Mumford or Robinson type player live on air?

What changes to the rules and game will the AFL issue to ensure that doesn't happen?

This decision should have been left in the hands of the genes, that is a natural line of demarcation that cannot be debated!

I welcome it.

Only when things become "unfair" will sanity be restored.

The trans movement is an identity disorder, and should be treated as such and not entertained in the fashion we currently do, and only when people accept that people cannot actually transition gender will we make any real progress on this front.

The other part of it, is that its simply kept out of sports.  People can go trans after their sporting career is over, but they can't have it both ways so to speak.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #9
The other part of it, is that its simply kept out of sports.  People can go trans after their sporting career is over, but they can't have it both ways so to speak.

I'd have no problem if Mouncey transitioned and was then drafted by an AFL team, that would intrinsically have an equality about the events. There is nothing equal about Mouncey playing AFLW. There is a directionality to all this that seems fair and reasonable!

The legal forked tongues have made things worse not better, they argue that they are progressive, but their tactics differ little from those who argued a woman was a witch if she floats!

The politically correct are basically arguing for a change in the arrow of time, if they say it's true it must be so, their opinion is all that matters and words can change reality!

All this reminds me of Plato and Aristotle, I believe Plato thought vision was the product of beams emitted by our eyes, yet Plato never pondered in relation to this belief our inability to see in the dark, Aristotle kindly pointed that out! Plato missed the obvious!

Let the flat earth rule! ;D
The Force Awakens!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #10
I welcome it.

Only when things become "unfair" will sanity be restored.

The trans movement is an identity disorder, and should be treated as such and not entertained in the fashion we currently do, and only when people accept that people cannot actually transition gender will we make any real progress on this front.

The other part of it, is that its simply kept out of sports.  People can go trans after their sporting career is over, but they can't have it both ways so to speak.

Gender is not binary Thry.  It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #11
Gender is not binary Thry.  It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.

For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!

Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?

I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!

No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!

DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!
The Force Awakens!

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #12
For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!

Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?

I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!

No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!

DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!

Gender is a social construct, sex is binary. 

Personally, I agree with Chris Judd, I don't think Hannah should be allowed to play in the AFLW. Whilst her testosterone levels may be adequate according to world sporting bodies, I don't think they have quite figured out yet what those levels should realistically be. I think it hurts the image and integrity of the competition which is still in its infancy. It already annoys me that so much attention is made of this issue when we're trying to get as much positive publicity for the women who have been working forwards this for decades. Hannah needs to check her former white male privilege at the door and realise that a lot of these women have not had the opportunity to compete at the highest level of their chosen sport (as Hannah did pre-trans in Handball), so it's time to put the greater good of the sport ahead of her own wants and desires. Welcome to the sisterhood Hannah, sometimes being a woman kind of sucks balls.

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #13
Gender is not binary Thry.  It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.

I don't know about this theory but I've entertained it and personally have rejected it.

My issue isn't the theory it's the practice.

In practice the non binary suffer as much angst and statistics show that suicide rates are just as high as the unhappy binaries.

Moral of the story is that we need to teach people how to accept the unchangeable.   Genetics and biology has its shortfalls but this has moved beyond what people call a gender construct and has resulted in a trans construct.

Where I think it falls over is the definition of male and female.   Hannah is a male in every way we all are just prefers to think of themselves as a female.

That's a brain issue not a biological one.  Teach her to be happy in herself as a male and you increase the chance she will find happiness. Or you can let her be a parody of what she believes is a female even though it's just a bloke wearing a skirt, and you end up annoying everyone.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

Reply #14
For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!

Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?

I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!

No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!

DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!

That’s not entirely true LP.  I have excavated several burials where it was not possible to confidently identify the sex of the individual.  Gracile male skeletons are often misidentified as female and robust female skeletons are misidentified as male.  However, I would imagine that Mouncey’s skeletal attributes would indicate male.

As for DNA:

Quote
Biological phenomena don't necessarily fit into human-ordained binary categories. So while humans insist that you're either male or female – that you have either XY or XX sex chromosomes – biology begs to differ.

For example, genetic men with Klinefelter syndrome possess an extra X chromosome (XXY) or more rarely, two or three extra Xs (XXXY, XXXXY); they typically produce low levels of testosterone, leading to less-developed masculine sexual characteristics and more-developed feminine characteristics than other men. In contrast, some men receive an extra Y chromosome (XYY) in the genetic lottery, and while they have been referred to as "supermales" that is more sensationalism than science.

Genetic women with Turner syndrome have only one X chromosome; they often display less-developed female sexual characteristics than other women. And people with a genetic mosaic possess XX chromosomes in some cells and XY in others. So how do we determine if they're male or female? Hint: Don't say that it depends on the chromosomal makeup of the majority of their cells, since women with more than 90 per cent XY genetic material have given birth.

Even if you get the "right" combination of sex chromosomes, it's no guarantee that you'll fit into the carefully circumscribed human definitions of male and female.

For example, genetic women (XX) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia produced unusually high levels of virilizing hormones in utero and develop stereotypically masculine sexual characteristics, including masculinized genitals.

It’s not quite as clear cut as some folk may think ...
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball