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Topic: Ajla Tomljanović vs America (Read 8748 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #60
Let’s not confuse GOAT with “favourite player”. When we pick our favourite players, we’re entitled to take into account onfield and offield behaviour. We’re also entitled to take into account their ability to overcome adversity and their ability to extract everything from their bodies, even if they aren’t built like superheroes. For instance, Dean Rice was one of my favourites even though he wasn’t close to being the best in his time at Carlton.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #61
Yes, agreed, it's very very rare you get an obvious GOAT like Lance Armstrong.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #62
Let’s not confuse GOAT with “favourite player”. When we pick our favourite players, we’re entitled to take into account onfield and offield behaviour. We’re also entitled to take into account their ability to overcome adversity and their ability to extract everything from their bodies, even if they aren’t built like superheroes. For instance, Dean Rice was one of my favourites even though he wasn’t close to being the best in his time at Carlton.

Im not. Novak went past Federer on titles, and by definition the fact that they even have a close tally (and directly competed for the same trophy) makes Novak even achieving what he has against the double act of Federer and Nadal quite remarkable.

HOWEVER:  Nadal will go down as the GOAT until he is surpassed, irrespective of how that is viewed by all and sundry.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #63
In my experience this is how people operate.  To be the GOAT its not solely about trophies its also about disposition, and for reference, I will point to the Roger Federer vs Novak Djokovic debate.  Nadal has become the currently undisputed GOAT but you don't need to guess whom would be the alternative sans Novak.


Hmm. There's a few things I'd say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong :
1. I get the impression that your criteria for GOAT is basically number of slams ? If so, I think you need to look at more than that to even start a discussion.
2. I'm not sure words like "undisputed" have any place in the airy-fairy world of GOAT debates. I'm not at all sure that Rafa is the "undisputed" GOAT in current discussions.
3. It seems to me as though you are framing what you see in a way that supports your conclusions. You have the conclusion before you go out looking from what I can tell.
4. Your argument would, by logic, have to work both ways. If the "experts" are mostly saying Serena is the GOAT, then you saying otherwise may mean (following your logic with Mav) that you have some personal bias against Serena. It's not as though Mav is the only one who thinks this.

Mav is focusing on Court's personal aspects because he's making a point, which is that if you weaponize your faith in a way that harms others, then the gloves are off and you forfeit the right to be treated nicely. You will have to make up your own mind as to whether that's appropriate.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #64
Mav is focusing on Court's personal aspects because he's making a point, which is that if you weaponize your faith in a way that harms others, then the gloves are off and you forfeit the right to be treated nicely. You will have to make up your own mind as to whether that's appropriate.
I find the concept of somehow weaponizing a personal perspective even more perplexing than the concept of declaring a GOAT.

Maybe if the combatant is a psychopath, but then in that circumstance everything is probably a weapon!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #65
I find the concept of somehow weaponizing a personal perspective even more perplexing than the concept of declaring a GOAT.

Maybe if the combatant is a psychopath, but then in that circumstance everything is probably a weapon!

If you hold an opinion, and you accept no agency for that opinion ("it's not me, it's just what the Bible says"), and if you fail to acknowledge or accept that your opinion has clear negative consequences, that is for mine a weaponized opinion.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #66
If you hold an opinion, and you accept no agency for that opinion ("it's not me, it's just what the Bible says"), and if you fail to acknowledge or accept that your opinion has clear negative consequences, that is for mine a weaponised opinion.
Yet, to me, that very position seems to be a tad circular @PaulP

There are frames of reference at play here that can potentially turn this into a never ending philosophical debate. I'm not sure how you discuss any issue based on faith and avoid your conclusion, to some degree at some level it's an inherent part of the belief system that you would conclude is weaponised.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #67

Hmm. There's a few things I'd say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong :
1. I get the impression that your criteria for GOAT is basically number of slams ? If so, I think you need to look at more than that to even start a discussion.
2. I'm not sure words like "undisputed" have any place in the airy-fairy world of GOAT debates. I'm not at all sure that Rafa is the "undisputed" GOAT in current discussions.
3. It seems to me as though you are framing what you see in a way that supports your conclusions. You have the conclusion before you go out looking from what I can tell.
4. Your argument would, by logic, have to work both ways. If the "experts" are mostly saying Serena is the GOAT, then you saying otherwise may mean (following your logic with Mav) that you have some personal bias against Serena. It's not as though Mav is the only one who thinks this.

Mav is focusing on Court's personal aspects because he's making a point, which is that if you weaponize your faith in a way that harms others, then the gloves are off and you forfeit the right to be treated nicely. You will have to make up your own mind as to whether that's appropriate.

I think you've misunderstood what im saying and that can be due to how its been written.

The greatest of all time puts the score on the board.  Whether or not they are likable is an extra dimension that isn't worth discussing and isn't something im necessarily interested in, but I believe others are. 

Does that frame what im trying to say better and answer your question?

I dont see things in a way that supports my conclusions, I have drawn my conclusions from observing this behaviour.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #68
But you’re conflating GOAT with the number of slams won. That’s just 1 relevant measure. And you can’t say that other measures can’t be considered because the mix of measures is subjective. This is especially the case when we’re talking a differential of only 1 slam and there’s heated agreement that comparisons between different eras are fraught.

For instance, Plugger unquestionably holds the record for the greatest number of goals kicked. But that doesn’t mean a case can’t be made that Jason Dunstall is the greatest FF in history. He played in 4 premierships while Plugger and Ablett played in none. As Ablett showed when he kicked 14 against Essendon, eclipsing Salmon’s 10, big bags don’t necessarily win games. Dunstall was more of a team player. And that might lead some to put him ahead of Plugger or Ablett. (Apologies to Coventry by the way)

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #69

Hmm. There's a few things I'd say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong :
1. I get the impression that your criteria for GOAT is basically number of slams ? If so, I think you need to look at more than that to even start a discussion.

Pauly can you elaborate on bold bit 2 please. Bold bit 1 is my criteria (ie number of titles) and there nothing else by which to measure IMO.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time


Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #71
Pauly can you elaborate on bold bit 2 please. Bold bit 1 is my criteria (ie number of titles) and there nothing else by which to measure IMO.

I think this discussion is lacking in accurate definitions, which unfortunately doesn't help anyone.

Trying to answer your question, firstly there is a difference between number of slams and number of titles. We need to know what it is we are counting. Secondly, when I refer to other criteria, there could be many : winning percentage, weeks at No1, Olympic medals,  etc. In trying to assess the GOAT, as futile as it is, I don't believe looking at number of Grand Slams is enough.

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #72
But you’re conflating GOAT with the number of slams won. That’s just 1 relevant measure. And you can’t say that other measures can’t be considered because the mix of measures is subjective. This is especially the case when we’re talking a differential of only 1 slam and there’s heated agreement that comparisons between different eras are fraught.

For instance, Plugger unquestionably holds the record for the greatest number of goals kicked. But that doesn’t mean a case can’t be made that Jason Dunstall is the greatest FF in history. He played in 4 premierships while Plugger and Ablett played in none. As Ablett showed when he kicked 14 against Essendon, eclipsing Salmon’s 10, big bags don’t necessarily win games. Dunstall was more of a team player. And that might lead some to put him ahead of Plugger or Ablett. (Apologies to Coventry by the way)

No Im simply pointing at the scoreboard.

In Tennis thats much less subjective.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #73
I think this discussion is lacking in accurate definitions, which unfortunately doesn't help anyone.

Trying to answer your question, firstly there is a difference between number of slams and number of titles. We need to know what it is we are counting. Secondly, when I refer to other criteria, there could be many : winning percentage, weeks at No1, Olympic medals,  etc. In trying to assess the GOAT, as futile as it is, I don't believe looking at number of Grand Slams is enough.
Ok no worries, I mixed slams with Titles. For me its Titles.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: Ajla Tomljanović vs America

Reply #74
No Im simply pointing at the scoreboard.

In Tennis thats much less subjective.


There are many scoreboards in tennis. How you weight them is up to you, but your result will remain debatable.