Hey all, what the hell is going on over there !!! Far out, I hope that everyone here is OK . as well as friends & relatives. Sadly, there are some people who are going to be heartbroken this afternoon.
appalling news.
regards
Mal.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wild-car-cbd-chase-sees-pedestrians-in-bourke-street-mall-injured-shots-fired-20170120-gtvgk9.html
Seems to be the latest Malo. This is terrible! :(
My office is in the CBD blocks away from the scene, suffice to say it was utter pandemonium. Coppers could have done us all a favour and put one between the scum bags eyes.
What a terrible experience for folk going about their business or enjoying a day in the city!
By all accounts the police did a great job bringing the incident to an end but not before loss of life, including a young child, and serious injuries. Members of the public stepped up and offered assistance to the injured. Well done to them.
I was pleased to hear from my son who works in the city but other folk will not have been so fortunate. My thoughts are with those who were injured or who lost loved ones.
We all know many people who work/go to the city. Most of us are very fortunate today that these people weren't injured or killed. Unfortunately there have been many lives changed for the much worse today through no fault of their own.
A moment of reflection, listening to Nina Simone's version of You'll Never Walk Alone, loud (with earphones) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElwCOX3AiIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElwCOX3AiIs) is my offering of solace and hope to everyone above, as well as thanks to all the great people who helped others in their time of need.
Another scumbag out on bail (bailed last Sat) despite police pleas to have him remanded in custody according to the HS. Those poor families, lives changed forever in a senseless act of violence.
I'm struggling to comprehend thd magnitude of this heinous crime. Simply unimaginable. What was going through the driver's mind.....
My thoughts are with the many family's affected by this tragedy.
Another scumbag out on bail (bailed last Sat) despite police pleas to have him remanded in custody according to the HS. Those poor families, lives changed forever in a senseless act of violence.
I agree with your original theory about a bullet...the world is a sad place, these nutters dont deserve to be kept at the tax payers expense....
Lives, families ruined today by one man who will probably live out his life in some institution oblivious to the pain he has caused and then want parole....
I agree with your original theory about a bullet...the world is a sad place, these nutters dont deserve to be kept at the tax payers expense....
Lives, families ruined today by one man who will probably live out his life in some institution oblivious to the pain he has caused and then want parole....
I'm not up to date on the latest, but if he did indeed kill some kids on his rampage, i doubt his inmates will let him live out his life.
I'm not up to date on the latest, but if he did indeed kill some kids on his rampage, i doubt his inmates will let him live out his life.
He will be kept in isolation like the Anita Cobby murderers Krud.
How people like this are allowed to walk around with the general public really astounds me. I've been trying not to read about it as i heard a young child was killed at the hands of this drug-induced, psychotic lunatic and i can honestly say my stomach is churning right now.
Those poor families. :(
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/killer-driver-highlighted-how-susceptible-city-is-to-attack-20170120-gtvr5a.html
In most jurisdictions he wouldn't have been given a second chance. He was shown more compassion than he gave the strangers he attacked in a few minutes of vile madness.
My office is in the CBD blocks away from the scene, suffice to say it was utter pandemonium. Coppers could have done us all a favour and put one between the scum bags eyes.
Trouble is they get drawn and quartered if they open fire without due cause, and the way the legal eagles have twisted the rights of the criminal that basically comes after the event! Of course, how is shot first ask questions later balanced!
My son works in the CBD off Williams St, my elderly mother in law was at home and saw this story unfold in real time on the TV. She nearly collapsed, the media have a lot to answer for, it's the cameras and the internet that promotes this sort of act.
To think this nutter was in his car harassing reporters who were at the scene of his earlier alleged stabbing murder of his brother. Then they filmed him doing doughnuts in the very middle of Melbourne surrounded by police officers and pedestrians. Yet the police cannot act with force despite the fact his actions were already endangering the public.
But if you want to know were all this started, we need to go back to privatisation and the closure of mental health facilities during the Kennett government era. People like this use to be in the asylums for their own and everyone else's protection. I agree they have rights, but the rest of the population does as well! Closing the asylums and putting dangerous mentally ill individuals into community care has let the genie out of the box.
Police worry about radicals, but the rest of us should fear the copy cat nutters!
As for the politicians fixing the problem, with ar5ewipes like this in charge, what hope do we have?
As news began to break of the attack that has already claimed three lives, Senator Leyonhjelm took to twitter in response to a Herald Sun update to say: “Probably one of those semi-automatic assault cars.”
Follow David Leyonhjelm ✔ @DavidLeyonhjelm
Probably one of those semi-automatic assault cars.
1:54 PM - 20 Jan 2017
205 Retweets 364 likes
The comment drew almost universal condemnation, with many social media users criticising the politician for the tasteless remark.
Think about those 364 "Likes", 364 more potential nutters with guns or cars!
Why is our legal system so soft and inadequate?
Regardless of how many poor innocent citizens die as a result of letting these scumbags back into society YET those directly responsible are never ever held accountable and protected. Its a bloody joke!
I don't get it - Its pretty obviously 99% of voters would support much tougher bail conditions with some sort of accountability to the judge who allows these high risk offenders out and then re offends.
Why doesn't it change????
Are we not running out of space to put criminals? Hence why more get released than should.
Are we not running out of space to put criminals? Hence why more get released than should.
And it costs a lot of money to keep someone in gaol!
Our justice system is based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty and courts have to be satisfied that there is a good reason to incarcerate someone before their guilt is proven. I understand that the bloke responsible for the carnage has domestic violence charges pending and, while I would have locked him up and thrown away the key, magistrates have to be more even-handed.
The police couldn't have known what was going to happen earlier in the day when they were trying to apprehend the bloke or even when he was doing donuts outside Flinders Street Station. However, I remember an incident where two police officers shot a barking Bull Terrier in the back of a ute parked in the CBD several years ago. There was an outcry, and quite rightly too. Apart from the lunatic fringe, I suspect that there would have been no outcry if the police had been able to "neutralise" the driver once the threat he posed was realised. A difficult decision to take and one that I'm glad I have never had to make.
I'm not sure how the system operates in Victoria.
My experience is With Juvenile Justice in NSW.
One of our big problems in recent years has been that there have been limited facilities for those with mental health issues,
As a result many of these have been funneled into the Justice system.
This guy is pretty obviously mentally disturbed...he shouldn't have been on the streets.
Was the fact that he was due to a lack of alternative facilities.
We can rail against him (rightly so...he's a murderer) but he's likely to play the mental health issue and there is a fair chance he'll do that successfully.
What that means in terms of his (long period) of incarceration (where and how long) is unknown
A very sad day for the country.
I haven't gone in search of details of this incident just yet. In fact part of me doesn't want to acknowledge how extremely vulnerable we citizens are. Not only from terrorists but from our countrymen, as insane as that sounds.
If this heartless act was fuelled by drugs (and I don't know), I imagine the law will be applied accordingly.
It's tragic for affected families and for us all.
And it costs a lot of money to keep someone in gaol!
Our justice system is based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty and courts have to be satisfied that there is a good reason to incarcerate someone before their guilt is proven. I understand that the bloke responsible for the carnage has domestic violence charges pending and, while I would have locked him up and thrown away the key, magistrates have to be more even-handed.
The police couldn't have known what was going to happen earlier in the day when they were trying to apprehend the bloke or even when he was doing donuts outside Flinders Street Station. However, I remember an incident where two police officers shot a barking Bull Terrier in the back of a ute parked in the CBD several years ago. There was an outcry, and quite rightly too. Apart from the lunatic fringe, I suspect that there would have been no outcry if the police had been able to "neutralise" the driver once the threat he posed was realised. A difficult decision to take and one that I'm glad I have never had to make.
He's is a violent thug and ice addict who police knew would do harm to himself and others but a magistrate granted bail despite their protests. Congratulations judge, hope you are sleeping easy tonight. I hope some good can come of the terrible situation in the form of tougher bail laws. Build more jails/facilities, spend less on sporting events.
My office is in the CBD blocks away from the scene, suffice to say it was utter pandemonium. Coppers could have done us all a favour and put one between the scum bags eyes.
Exactly !! - he should have been stopped before this crap happened ...
From Derryn Hinch on Twitter......
I’m told pursuing police had 7 chances to ram the Bourke Street killer and were denied permission.
The Cops could've stopped him but weren't allowed ? they were watching him doing circles out front of Flinders st station.. ?
Exactly !! - he should have been stopped before this crap happened ...
From Derryn Hinch on Twitter......
I’m told pursuing police had 7 chances to ram the Bourke Street killer and were denied permission.
The Cops could've stopped him but weren't allowed ? they were watching him doing circles out front of Flinders st station.. ?
Remember the police don't have the power of hindsight when they make a decision on what action to take in a particular situation.
Attempting to stop a crazed ice addict is never going to be easy - I trust the police to make the correct call. I am certain they had their reasons why not to try and take him down when doing the burnouts.
Note- Mr Hinch- instead of being critical on the police force actions why don't you stop talking and try and bloody change the bail laws to stop these nut cases......or you could just keep talking it up like every other politician does in this country and do stuff all.
Remember the police don't have the power of hindsight when they make a decision on what action to take in a particular situation.
Attempting to stop a crazed ice addict is never going to be easy - I trust the police to make the correct call. I am certain they had their reasons why not to try and take him down when doing the burnouts.
Note- Mr hinch aren't you in politics now? Well instead of be critical on the police force why don't you stop talking and try and bloody change the bail laws to stop these nut cases or you could just keep talking like every other politician does in this country.
Yes in hindsight we are all experts I know I know.... It's just fkn heartbreaking for this to happen when it could have been prevented.
Cops in America would have had him locked up ( or dead ) well before it happened... I'm not blaming our cops ( following orders ) but they don't put up with any of that crap over there...
If Hinch had the power to change laws... he would ;)
Yes in hindsight we are all experts I know I know.... It's just fkn heartbreaking for this to happen when it could have been prevented.
Cops in America would have had him locked up ( or dead ) well before it happened... I'm not blaming our cops ( following orders ) but they don't put up with any of that crap over there...
If Hinch had the power to change laws... he would ;)
Bail laws MUST change. Thats now the 5th scum bag in recent history who should not have been on the street have committed attrocities towards innocent people going about their business (from the HS:
- Sean Price was on bail when he fatally stabbed 17-year-old schoolgirl Masa Vukotic 49 times and raped another woman.
-Adrian Bailey was on parole when he raped and murdered Jill Meagher.
-Steven James Hunter fatally stabbed and bashed Sarah Cafferkey, 22, in Bacchus Marsh — 11 days after completing parole for other violent crimes.
- David Patrick Clifford was on parole for drug trafficking when he violently bashed, stabbed and fatally strangled Elsa Corp, 26.
- Burke St Scumbag (I added this bit)
Things simply must change.
I think we are looking in the wrong place to stop these sorts of incidents.
The people who are the root cause of these incidents are the issue. Stop people being douche bags, and people dont need to be injured/killed unnecessarily.
We can blame people for not stopping the action, but to me I think its better to stop the unhinged before they become a problem, be that through better systems, or a better way of life.
I think we are looking in the wrong place to stop these sorts of incidents.
The people who are the root cause of these incidents are the issue. Stop people being douche bags, and people dont need to be injured/killed unnecessarily.
We can blame people for not stopping the action, but to me I think its better to stop the unhinged before they become a problem, be that through better systems, or a better way of life.
I suspect you're on the right track Thry. More needs to be done to prevent people becoming a threat to themselves, their families and the general public.
I don't know what the answer is but I suspect that it's not expecting troubled or broken people to look after themselves.
I suspect you're on the right track Thry. More needs to be done to prevent people becoming a threat to themselves, their families and the general public.
I don't know what the answer is but I suspect that it's not expecting troubled or broken people to look after themselves.
DJC couple of things:
1. It probably needs to start in primary school where rules need to be enforced harder and kids be punished when they are broken without interference from meddling parent. Kids need to be taught respect again and instructions from grown ups (teachers, parents, police etc) need to be followed. Also, no means no and kids don't have to be given everything they want.
2. More onus and responsibility needs to be put back onto the parents. These kids running rampant doing whatever they want, when they get busted breaking the law, impose some sort of a sanction on their parents/guardians as well. It might make them take a little more interest in their kids lives during the formative years.
My missus is a primary school teacher and is extremely disillusioned with systems and methods used these days. Kids just have no respect and when you try to instil some, parents and Principles arc up.
My kids' primary school was closed by the Kennett govt. Gary Bryce, aka the Barrel, was the principal and you couldn't wish for a nicer, more effective leader. There were just over 200 kids in the school and they came from over 80 different countries. It was the most harmonious school and school community. My daughter did get into strife for kicking a boy in the gnurries - but he deserved it!
The blokes in charge decided that the real estate value of the land on which the school was located was more valuable than the future good citizens they were moulding.
There does have to be more responsibility shown by parents but the system should be able to support those that aren't up to the task.
DJC couple of things:
1. It probably needs to start in primary school where rules need to be enforced harder and kids be punished when they are broken without interference from meddling parent. Kids need to be taught respect again and instructions from grown ups (teachers, parents, police etc) need to be followed. Also, no means no and kids don't have to be given everything they want.
2. More onus and responsibility needs to be put back onto the parents. These kids running rampant doing whatever they want, when they get busted breaking the law, impose some sort of a sanction on their parents/guardians as well. It might make them take a little more interest in their kids lives during the formative years.
My missus is a primary school teacher and is extremely disillusioned with systems and methods used these days. Kids just have no respect and when you try to instil some, parents and Principles arc up.
I'm 48 and times have changed blah blah but.....
When I was 7 or 8 around grade 3 or 4... I was hauled up to the principles office for doing the wrong thing ( long time ago I don't know what I did wrong ) along with 3 other boys... all 4 of us were in with principle... 2 got strapped and screamed and balled there eyes out and me and the other were told it was a warning and if we stuffed up again we would get the same treatment........ I crapped myself and never got in trouble at
school again !!
When I was about 13 I was rude to my mum once too often and my old man gave it to me - not real bad but bad enough............. I crapped myself and was never rude to my mum again !!
When I was 19 or 20 I was in a brawl out the front of my local pub....... A copper grabbed me from behind in a full nelson choking me, I nearly passed out he then slammed my head into the side of a divvy and threw me in the back............. I crapped myself and have never been in trouble with the police or a fight again!!
The moral of the story... respect your teachers, parents and the police. I learnt from my lessons.....
Kids these days aren't being taught the right lessons.
I'm 48 and times have changed blah blah but.....
When I was 7 or 8 around grade 3 or 4... I was hauled up to the principles office for doing the wrong thing ( long time ago I don't know what I did wrong ) along with 3 other boys... all 4 of us were in with principle... 2 got strapped and screamed and balled there eyes out and me and the other were told it was a warning and if we stuffed up again we would get the same treatment........ I crapped myself and never got in trouble at
school again !!
When I was about 13 I was rude to my mum once too often and my old man gave it to me - not real bad but bad enough............. I crapped myself and was never rude to my mum again !!
When I was 19 or 20 I was in a brawl out the front of my local pub....... A copper grabbed me from behind in a full nelson choking me, I nearly passed out he then slammed my head into the side of a divvy and threw me in the back............. I crapped myself and have never been in trouble with the police or a fight again!!
The moral of the story... respect your teachers, parents and the police. I learnt from my lessons.....
Kids these days aren't being taught the right lessons.
Bingo
Bring back the death penalty, Dupas, Knight, Bryant etc etc...this maniac from a couple of days ago.., sex offenders, drug dealers all gone...or give the Police more licence to open fire on these nutters instead of having to face an inquisition every time they discharge their weapons.
Bring back the death penalty, Dupas, Knight, Bryant etc etc...this maniac from a couple of days ago.., sex offenders, drug dealers all gone...or give the Police more licence to open fire on these nutters instead of having to face an inquisition every time they discharge their weapons.
I'm not convinced that bringing back the death penalty is the answer. However, I think that persons convicted of heinous crimes should forfeit all rights; no ability to take court action, no access to educational opportunities, the Internet, visitors, parole, etc. Lock them up and throw away the key.
Bring back the death penalty, Dupas, Knight, Bryant etc etc...this maniac from a couple of days ago.., sex offenders, drug dealers all gone...or give the Police more licence to open fire on these nutters instead of having to face an inquisition every time they discharge their weapons.
Vote EB for PM
Is NOT voting EB for PM a heinous crime ?
If it is I guess I'll have to vote for him...
In the case of this nondescript, Bryant and Knight, it's simply a matter of the police saying 'We did it in self defense,' and NO ONE would bar an eyelid.
In the case of this nondescript, Bryant and Knight, it's simply a matter of the police saying 'We did it in self defense,' and NO ONE would bar an eyelid.
No matter how 'right' it is, the cop still has to live with the fact that he's taken a human life. Something that is not easy to deal with.
Bring back the death penalty, Dupas, Knight, Bryant etc etc...this maniac from a couple of days ago.., sex offenders, drug dealers all gone...or give the Police more licence to open fire on these nutters instead of having to face an inquisition every time they discharge their weapons.
I am fast becoming a death penalty supporter for some crimes as well.
And before some start screaming " it's not a deterrent ", you don't bring it in as a deterrent but it's a punishment.
I am fast becoming a death penalty supporter for some crimes as well.
And before some start screaming " it's not a deterrent ", you don't bring it in as a deterrent but it's a punishment.
Couldn't agree more. I don't care about the deterrent factor, but the millions of dollars it costs to house these stains on humanity could be better spent. Put a needle in their arm and save us all a lot of money and heartache.
Couldn't agree more. I don't care about the deterrent factor, but the millions of dollars it costs to house this stains on humanity could be better spent. Put a need in their arm and save us all a lot of money and heartache.
While we are at it, why haven't the Apex gang kids been deported?
If they have come in on asylum seeker visa's and committed crimes, surely they should be deported similar to Dustin Martins father.
That would be a big deterrent.
Send three or four home and watch the problem go away.
Save a lot of tax payer dollars and let police get on with other issues.
I suspect you're on the right track Thry. More needs to be done to prevent people becoming a threat to themselves, their families and the general public.
I don't know what the answer is but I suspect that it's not expecting troubled or broken people to look after themselves.
Education DJC.
People are very quick to point out the ills of Religion (to which there are many), however Christ did state to treat others as you want to be treated. I think if all humans at a baseline followed that one rule, we would live in a much better place for it.
I'm not promoting religion as the answer for anyone who is going to jump on me, although I am a Christian. Bill and Ted even stated "Be Excellent to each other" if you want to ignore the Christian element, which is fine too. We all benefit from being Excellent to each other. Polite, curteous, non judgemental or supportive and list the rest of the positive ways to treat people here.
The way we live our lives, is often in the negative headspace. There was a movie called pay it forward, that was quite apt in regards to how people can really impact society positively.
At the end of the day, societal change starts with the individual.
Its the equality debate all over again too. Simply treat everyone the same (how you would like to be treated in the same circumstances) and there you have it. No more racism. No more sexism. Equality. True equality.
The death penalty is simply threatening people with the hell argument. Some people are self destructive for reasons we cannot understand. Usually because they were treated poorly to begin with.
There are many questions and issues to be resolved here including the treatment and accommodation of the mentally ill, the justice and bail system, the acceptable actions of the police in terms of pursuing and apprehending people posing a threat, punishment v. deterrents etc. etc.
While all of this debate takes place and everyone gets comfortable with the eventual outcomes, we need short term measures implemented that keep innocent people as safe as possible whilst they lawfully go about their normal lives on our streets. Obviously safeguards would be needed to avoid the abuse of civil liberties by authorities, but IMO, our right to safe streets is paramount.
Top post cookie.
It costs Americans around $2m to execute someone I think.
The legal process is exhaustive - to try to ensure they're not killing the wrong person.
Not saying we shouldn't do it but I am saying it's not like it's much cheaper... unfortunately. Police should have put the bullets between his eyes rather than the arm maybe.
This is getting into some dangerous territory and i apologize in advance if i piss anyone off.
What is a mental illness? They are difficult to diagnose and as a result can be 'faked' somewhat.
Recent comments about Hird suffering from PTSD is IMO an example of that.
Previously Gary Lyon was used as an example for suffering depression. Did he always suffer from it or was it brought on because he did the dirty on his best mates missus? Does it matter why it was brought on at all or does the fact he just has it bad enough and require sympathy and understanding? If he didn't cheat would he still have depression? I know someone who knows Gary personally and he gets extremely angry when anyone even suggests that Lyons condition isn't serious. Still, if its because of his own actions, does it deserve the same kind of respect/sympathy/help/understanding???
Similarly, does someone who willingly takes drugs yet refuses to change deserve the same treatment as someone who genuinely wants to turn their life around and kick their addiction get? An example of the first one could be someone like Ben Cousins. Does he deserve the amount of chances/help he gets or should we be harsher on him because of his mindset - eg i dont want to change.
Finally, this idiot this thread is about. I've heard he's an ice addict and suffering from mental problems. As a result of the ice? Does it matter? I'm sure whatever defense he uses will include some kind of leniency for being mentally ill.
Which leads me to my next question. If someone kills someone else and it is not an accident, in self defense or in war....the person essentially wanted to kill someone. If someone willingly kills someone you would suggest that there is something wrong with them.....even mentally unwell. So isn't EVERY murderer mentally ill? Do we extend that to rapists? People who steal cars??
Where is the line of being mentally ill? When is it crossed and what brought on the crossing?
Of course answers to the above question can be extended to the death penalty and if/when it should be applied.
While we are at it, why haven't the Apex gang kids been deported?
probably because they are Australian citizens I'd guess.
There are many questions and issues to be resolved here including the treatment and accommodation of the mentally ill, the justice and bail system, the acceptable actions of the police in terms of pursuing and apprehending people posing a threat, punishment v. deterrents etc. etc.
While all of this debate takes place and everyone gets comfortable with the eventual outcomes, we need short term measures implemented that keep innocent people as safe as possible whilst they lawfully go about their normal lives on our streets. Obviously safeguards would be needed to avoid the abuse of civil liberties by authorities, but IMO, our right to safe streets is paramount.
That's nailed it Cookie.
The only question I have is are our streets less safe now than they were in the past? From my own experience of violent incidents, I'd say that not much has really changed in the last 50 years, apart from police routinely carrying firearms.
It costs Americans around $2m to execute someone I think.
The legal process is exhaustive - to try to ensure they're not killing the wrong person.
Not saying we shouldn't do it but I am saying it's not like it's much cheaper... unfortunately. Police should have put the bullets between his eyes rather than the arm maybe.
It does cost a bit to execute, that's true, but it costs us an average of $292 a day to house a prisoner. On say a 25 year sentence which would be on the lower end of what these guys will spend in prison, that's $2,664,500. Plus factor in the increase in costs between now and that 25 year mark, we're probably closer to $3.5 million.
I do think however the death penalty should only be used in cases where there is no chance that anyone else committed the crime. Guys like this CBD scumbag where police caught him in the act. You get convicted, maybe 1 chance to appeal, then bye bye Jimmy.
If you saw yesterday's edition of The Project, you will see exactly where the blame lies and the retired Bail Justice pulled no punches.
Kennett closed too many mental health care facilities to reap the rewards of housing developments.
Now the Magistrates and Justices have nowhere to put the mentally ill when they run off the rails. Plus they are pressurized by the government to grant bail because jails are overflowing. Which means many criminals and mentally ill just walk out of the door!
Meanwhile, we blow up millions of dollars in fireworks several times a year and continually subsidise horse, car and motorbike races.
If you saw yesterday's edition of The Project, you will see exactly where the blame lies and the retired Bail Justice pulled no punches.
Kennett closed too many mental health care facilities to reap the rewards of housing developments.
Now the Magistrates and Justices have nowhere to put the mentally ill when they run off the rails. Plus they are pressurized by the government to grant bail because jails are overflowing. Which means many criminals and mentally ill just walk out of the door!
Meanwhile, we blow up millions of dollars in fireworks several times a year and continually subsidise horse, car and motorbike races.
The bold bit is it for me. Its a disgrace when you think about it.
It does cost a bit to execute, that's true, but it costs us an average of $292 a day to house a prisoner. On say a 25 year sentence which would be on the lower end of what these guys will spend in prison, that's $2,664,500. Plus factor in the increase in costs between now and that 25 year mark, we're probably closer to $3.5 million.
I do think however the death penalty should only be used in cases where there is no chance that anyone else committed the crime. Guys like this CBD scumbag where police caught him in the act. You get convicted, maybe 1 chance to appeal, then bye bye Jimmy.
The other thing you would hope the death penalty would bring is some added deterrent, assuming they are capable of some degree of rational thinking.
Unfortunately it has pretty well been proven that the death penalty is not a deterrent, as:
- a drug/alcohol addled person isn't thinking about consequences
- a planned murder often has an element of the perp thinking they won't get caught
- a multi murder (eg US school shooting) has no element of rationality behind it and the person killing doesn't care.
the number of innocent people on death row, depending on whose stats you read, is actually bigger than you may expect (between 5&10%, I think - may need to do some research to freshen the numbers)
There are too many variations for a black and white solution eg what if the person isn't 100% and doesn't understand what they have done is wrong?
The other thing you would hope the death penalty would bring is some added deterrent, assuming they are capable of some degree of rational thinking.
All the death penalty does is satisfy society's desire to seek revenge......
Agree with tonyo and dodge. Education, proper values and genuine support for those that need it are key. You know, the stuff that actually requires effort and being knowledgable and educated and on the same page.
All the death penalty does is satisfy society's desire to seek revenge......
Some might say it satisfies society's need for justice....Benjamin Franklin wrote:
“Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.”
Agree with tonyo and dodge. Education, proper values and genuine support for those that need it are key. You know, the stuff that actually requires effort and being knowledgable and educated and on the same page.
Pauly could you please elaborate, Im not sure I follow. Education, proper values and support for who?
All the death penalty does is satisfy society's desire to seek revenge......
And in the mean time, "the nice guys come last" again.
I expect the legal process will address issues of competence v insanity and intent v accidental (or forced by another for fear of one's life). Which ever way the cards fall, he's guilty and will be charged and locked away. Extenuating circumstances (if there are any) will, as I understand it, impacts only 'for how long'. He killed 5 people and injured many others.
It doesn't get more culpable.
Like others have said, his life inside may be shortened at the hands of others who are, well, serial immoralists.... Perhaps the system will right the wrongs.
All the death penalty does is satisfy society's desire to seek revenge......
No. . . . . The death penalty also PUNISHES the perpetrator.
No. . . . . The death penalty also PUNISHES the perpetrator.
The death penalty does nothing to deter people who commit these sorts of crimes - all it does it let them go out in a blaze of "in-glory" and then some other whacko reads about it and says "hey that was cool - I'd like to try that!".
If the death penalty worked so well, the places in the world that still allow it shouldn't have any murders?
Perhaps we should be tackling the crap that makes them murderers in the first place......
The cop should have put a few extra bullets in him.
Some might say it satisfies society's need for justice....Benjamin Franklin wrote:
“Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.”
I think the problem is EB1 the minute you have a death penalty the money people think they will save from not having long term imprisoned is actually consumed many times over by legal appeals.
Also, the death penalty promotes violent confrontations between police and desperate criminals, which is why many police are against it.
I think the solution is to bring back the asylums, seriously kit out the police force to deal with these sorts of situations, and setup some sensible preventative measures. But the politicians won't because it costs money. In the meantime, the Lord Major will keep complaining about the lack of police and security in the CBD while he blows up another few $million in fireworks. The money spent on those fireworks could fit vehicle, pedestrian barriers or bollards at most critical CBD or Suburban locations in the state.
The death penalty does nothing to deter people who commit these sorts of crimes - all it does it let them go out in a blaze of "in-glory" and then some other whacko reads about it and says "hey that was cool - I'd like to try that!".
If the death penalty worked so well, the places in the world that still allow it shouldn't have any murders?
Perhaps we should be tackling the crap that makes them murderers in the first place......
Whilst I agree that the death penalty is not the answer (or even an answer) i think it's hard to draw out one single facet of a complex society. Apart from the U.S., many of the countries with the death penalty are beset with a variety of issues that muddy the waters when trying to analyse the effective of that strategy.
I like with your last sentence. Many of these offenders are devoid of hope and meaning long before these atrocities are committed. The death penalty would not register on their radar at all.
Pauly could you please elaborate, Im not sure I follow. Education, proper values and support for who?
Support for those who simply can't do the right thing on their own.
The education system isn't designed to raise children, parents still have some responsibilities.
The education system isn't designed to raise children, parents still have some responsibilities.
Most education comes from the parents. Their role is more important than any education system.
Most education comes from the parents. Their role is more important than any education system.
Yet I'm sure that good parenting would not help many ICE Addicts.
The best parents in the world are powerless against the effects of powerful psychotic substances, for many one small "try" is all it takes, loving families are being destroyed on a daily basis.
A much, much greater effort from government is required. Bring back the asylums, kit out the forces, get serious about getting control. It's mostly the criminals demanding their freedom!
The death penalty does nothing to deter people who commit these sorts of crimes - all it does it let them go out in a blaze of "in-glory" and then some other whacko reads about it and says "hey that was cool - I'd like to try that!".
If the death penalty worked so well, the places in the world that still allow it shouldn't have any murders?
Perhaps we should be tackling the crap that makes them murderers in the first place......
It may deter some but not all ... but it sure gets rid rid of the scum that can commit repeat murders, eg Sarah Cafferkey might still be alive today if someone had pulled the trigger or flicked the switch on that maniac Steven Hunter who was let out after murdering a 18 year girl a first time and being paroled. If that was your daughter hit with a hammer, stabbed 19 times and sliced up in a barrel you might re-think your opposition to the death penalty. As it now we have to feed and keep that maniac for the rest of his life, wasting money that could go into medicine for example to save lives...he is lucky he isnt in China now that you have mentioned other parts of the world, he would have had his useful body parts harvested before and after his execution when he murdered the first time......and a young girl would still be alive.
The education system isn't designed to raise children, parents still have some responsibilities.
Unfortunately the education system, particularly state departments, actually do think it's their responsibility to raise children & not the parents !
Unfortunately the education system, particularly state departments, actually do think it's their responsibility to raise children & not the parents !
It is the
LACK OF PARENTING that is the problem. Schools (and Education Departments) try to make up for it but can't.
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot. It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night, they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens. It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive. The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago. Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.
Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society. It isn't that easy. I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.
There is no easy solution to any of this, but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot. It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night, they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens. It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive. The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago. Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.
Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society. It isn't that easy. I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.
There is no easy solution to any of this, but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.
Very true!
Things like divorce or family trauma can send kids off the rails regardless of how hard the parents work at being good parents.
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot. It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night, they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens. It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive. The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago. Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.
Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society. It isn't that easy. I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.
There is no easy solution to any of this, but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.
My wife will attest to this Dodge. She was a high school teacher and the lack of effective parenting with some of the kids was all too apparent. This was evidenced by disruptive behaviour and other issues on which teachers had to spend valuable time, detracting from more constructive activities.
If the government wants to fix problems with parenting, it should try and limit the people who can become parents.
Too many deadbeats are pumping out a cricket team worth of kids when they are struggling to afford their carton of durries every week.
Now i don't suspect this is an easy fix, or one that will even be attempted, but it would be an effective one.
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot. It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night, they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens. It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive. The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago. Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.
Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society. It isn't that easy. I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.
There is no easy solution to any of this, but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.
Yes we have many more single parent families, duel income families, immigrants etc. but I taught a family of girls who on Friday nights were consistently lined up against the house passage wall and who in turn had a gun placed under their chin by their dad while he asked each one to give him a reason not to pull the trigger. Very few worse cases I would think. But those girls all became excellent students and great people. It took just one parent, the mother, to put in time with them to succeed where many now fail miserably today.
Yes we have many more single parent families, duel income families, immigrants etc. but I taught a family of girls who on Friday nights were consistently lined up against the house passage wall and who in turn had a gun placed under their chin by their dad while he asked each one to give him a reason not to pull the trigger. Very few worse cases I would think. But those girls all became excellent students and great people. It took just one parent, the mother, to put in time with them to succeed where many now fail miserably today.
:o
That certainly places my childhood into perspective!
:o
That certainly places my childhood into perspective!
F.....
It is the LACK OF PARENTING that is the problem. Schools (and Education Departments) try to make up for it but can't.
This is a societal issue for various reasons.
The saying it takes a village to raise a child doesn't come from no where yet a by product of how we live means that anyone with differing input on how to raise a family is drowned out by the pc brigade these days.
As a consequence in the past where others would step up to help in lieu of a crappy parent they no longer can because of how we live.
I suspect greater family ties are the answer.
All this talk about how to avoid a situation like this is in my opinion rubbish.
Sadly there will always be criminals. nutcases, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles etc regardless of improved parenting or education.
This world has and always will be of all sorts of people - majority good, some bad and minority awful and capable of serious crimes against law abiding citizens.
All you can do IMO is get extra tough on these sorts of characters by protecting the public more as soon as they stuff up once with a serious crime. The majority of serious crimes are done by criminals that are known to police and many times out on bail.
The majority of sentencing for serious crimes is way to soft - about half what I think they should be. Life sentence for first degree murder should be set at 50 years not 25 for example.
Sadly it wont happen as the longer a criminal is housed the more it costs the state. Death penalty is the option but i know many disagree with taking a life regardless.
I'm not one of them. Just listen to the paramedic who worked on the poor innocent 10 year old girl in Bourke St. I was a mess when I heard this man speak about not being able to save her and her just staring at him... :'( :'(
And to think the animal responsible for not only taking her life but destroying her family forever is allowed to still breath, be fed for free, watch TV, have a computer and have a roof over his head and for free is so wrong IMO.
All this talk about how to avoid a situation like this is in my opinion rubbish.
Sadly there will always be criminals. nutcases, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles etc regardless of improved parenting or education.
This world has and always will be of all sorts of people - majority good, some bad and minority awful and capable of serious crimes against law abiding citizens.
All you can do IMO is get extra tough on these sorts of characters by protecting the public more as soon as they stuff up once with a serious crime. The majority of serious crimes are done by criminals that are known to police and many times out on bail.
The majority of sentencing for serious crimes is way to soft - about half what I think they should be. Life sentence for first degree murder should be set at 50 years not 25 for example.
Sadly it wont happen as the longer a criminal is housed the more it costs the state. Death penalty is the option but i know many disagree with taking a life regardless.
I'm not one of them. Just listen to the paramedic who worked on the poor innocent 10 year old girl in Bourke St. I was a mess when I heard this man speak about not being able to save her and her just staring at him... :'( :'(
And to think the animal responsible for not only taking her life but destroying her family forever is allowed to still breath, be fed for free, watch TV, have a computer and have a roof over his head and for free is so wrong IMO.
Shawny, I have highlighted this point in bold to try and understand something.
Are people born bad eggs, or do they become that way?
Are people born bad eggs, or do they become that way?
Nature vs Nurture
If its in their nature, can they be nurtured?
Or are they lost causes from the get go?
Im trying to understand something here, and I cannot figure out for the life of me why some people proceed through life one way yet their siblings go a completely different route and sure there are learning components for parenting in the process as the very few examples I can show you are the eldest children being the ones who stuff up more, yet in one family, 4 kids, we have the eldest and youngest both being terrors and the middle children being "good" kids, which makes me wonder if they are not shaped more by their experiences with their peers than the parenting.
IMHO, parenting is the easy target. Ive yet to meet too many parents who "don't care" about their kids and as a consequence they turn into bad eggs, but I've met plenty who are molly coddled and turn into terrors. (Note, the perpetrator of the bourke street incident is very much next level to anything I have witnessed.)
If its in their nature, can they be nurtured?
Or are they lost causes from the get go?
Im trying to understand something here, and I cannot figure out for the life of me why some people proceed through life one way yet their siblings go a completely different route and sure there are learning components for parenting in the process as the very few examples I can show you are the eldest children being the ones who stuff up more, yet in one family, 4 kids, we have the eldest and youngest both being terrors and the middle children being "good" kids, which makes me wonder if they are not shaped more by their experiences with their peers than the parenting.
IMHO, parenting is the easy target. Ive yet to meet too many parents who "don't care" about their kids and as a consequence they turn into bad eggs, but I've met plenty who are molly coddled and turn into terrors. (Note, the perpetrator of the bourke street incident is very much next level to anything I have witnessed.)
Nurture is not limited to their parents, but it is the obvious factor.
You can argue about this topic for ever and a day and there are plenty of studies on it.
I made a comment previously about limited adults having children as being the best fix (albeit most unlikely) in order to stop this problem. Meaning i believe its more nurture than nature.
I spent forty years working in the juvenile justice system.
Over that period of time I met countless parents.
The large majority of them appeared to be genuinely caring...but (judgmentally on my part) inadequate.
They appeared to lack the ability to make good judgements or establish boundaries and controls.
Often these meetings would also take place with a grandparent and you could see that the parents were unprepared largely because their own childhood had lacked that parental guidance.
Single parent families were also common and more often than not it was the mother who was left to raise the child...in such cases the father had often been abusive to both mother and children.
Poverty or living on the fringe, which often accompanied such family breakups, contributed to the pressures on parents.
Without strong parental influences in their lives kids turn to peer groups which provide a more positive atmosphere of acceptance....but not necessarily of behaviour.
So that's basically your foundation for building a young offender.
Yes, there were kids who were off the rails despite having stronger family backgrounds and siblings who were never in trouble.
In most cases these were the result of a mental condition... maybe not an obvious one, but there all the same.
I'm trying to understand something here, and I cannot figure out for the life of me why some people proceed through life one way yet their siblings go a completely different route and sure there are learning components for parenting in the process as the very few examples I can show you are the eldest children being the ones who stuff up more, yet in one family, 4 kids, we have the eldest and youngest both being terrors and the middle children being "good" kids, which makes me wonder if they are not shaped more by their experiences with their peers than the parenting.
Just taking the mental condition aspect out of it for a second...Elder children will often be the more difficult because they're the "first attempt". Folks learn from their mistakes with subsequent kids. They're also born at a time when parents are still establishing themselves so attention is often on other things like careers, buying a home, change of lifestyle created by the new baby. As for the youngest ones...they're just bad eggs ;D
So that's basically your foundation for building a young offender.
Yes, there were kids who were off the rails despite having stronger family backgrounds and siblings who were never in trouble.
In most cases these were the result of a mental condition... maybe not an obvious one, but there all the same.
So if the problem cannot be cured upgrading societal skills, where does the "Kennett" rational come from to close all the asylums, I assume it was primarily a fiscal decision that comes at the expense of the general public?
Lods, posters will happily argue the causes with you, that is for sure. But from your experience, what is the fundamental solution?
I gather allowing troubled youth to run riot in detention is not going to make things better. That probably just reinforces bad behavior.
Sending kids to big persons prison won't be the answer either, that will just institutionalise them long term.
Where should we spend the smart money?
Lods, top post. There's many factors and forces working together that create the problem.
So if the problem cannot be cured upgrading societal skills, where does the "Kennett" rational come from to close all the asylums, I assume it was primarily a fiscal decision that comes at the expense of the general public?
Lods, posters will happily argue the causes with you, that is for sure. But from your experience, what is the fundamental solution?
I gather allowing troubled youth to run riot in detention is not going to make things better. That probably just reinforces bad behavior.
Sending kids to big persons prison won't be the answer either, that will just institutionalise them long term.
Where should we spend the smart money?
We had a similar situation occur in NSW many years ago.
At one stage the Community Services Department ran both State Ward homes and Juvenile detention Centres.
I worked in both.
The State Ward homes catered for a range of kids so that we had specialist centres for intellectually disabled, emotionally disturbed and just basically neglected kids...To tell you the truth they weren't great places and there are a number of horror cases that were no doubt looked at during the commission into institutional abuse...however they did serve a purpose in that these kids (Wards), especially the ones with emotional disturbance, were kept separate from the juvenile detention system.
Like with the Kennett situation these were gradually closed down, replaced in some part by smaller group homes...but large numbers of these kids then began showing up in the Juvenile Detention system.
Many may have ended up there anyway but their introduction into that system was fast tracked.
What to do?
Separate them, get them before they become entrenched in the JJ system. Provide the kids with emotional disturbance or more serious psychiatric disorders with a more suitable and hopefully productive program....but that costs money.
So the question then becomes one of cost effectiveness.
At the very least trial a few.
Look, Juvenile Detention centres are streets ahead of what they used to be in terms of providing educational and rehabilitative opportunities for kids....but they're being called upon to do too much if they're also being asked to function as mental health facilities.
Mixing the populations is detrimental to both groups.
(and get some bloody razor wire on the roof of your JJ centres to stop the kids climbing all over them.....they'll fall and hurt themselves!)
One thing I wasn't aware of is that a young offender who enters the juvenile justice system as a minor can stay there until they're 25. I would imagine that a bloke in their early 20s could wield quite an influence over first time offenders in their mid teens.
While I'm not advocating moving all young offenders to adult prison once the reach a certain age, it should happen when deemed appropriate.
One thing I wasn't aware of is that a young offender who enters the juvenile justice system as a minor can stay there until they're 25. I would imagine that a bloke in their early 20s could wield quite an influence over first time offenders in their mid teens.
While I'm not advocating moving all young offenders to adult prison once the reach a certain age, it should happen when deemed appropriate.
Not sure about 25...don't know how it works down there.
But we've had them up to about 20..usually undertaking some educational program or work release.
They stay because their behaviour is excellent.
Put a foot wrong, including intimidating younger ones, and they're gone.
Not sure about 25...don't know how it works down there.
But we've had them up to about 20..usually undertaking some educational program or work release.
They stay because their behaviour is excellent.
Put a foot wrong, including intimidating younger ones, and they're gone.
My son works in the system Lods, in a professional development capacity, and recently told me about the 25 year old rule. A significant number of the young offenders now housed in an adult prison because they trashed a youth detention centre are in their 20s.
I fully support the idea of older young offenders staying in the youth system while they complete educational or vocational programs, but not if they muck up ...
Would any of the above have helped in this instance?
Would any of the above have helped avoid the Bourke street incident??
I don't think it would have unless I dont have the full background of this individual.
Would any of the above have helped in this instance?
Would any of the above have helped avoid the Bourke street incident??
I don't think it would have unless I dont have the full background of this individual.
Probably not, but you can never be sure...the offender was a product of a whole range of influences (including mental health issues) over a lifetime that led him to this point.
But many could be helped by alternative or earlier intervention
Would any of the above have helped in this instance?
Would any of the above have helped avoid the Bourke street incident??
I don't think it would have unless I dont have the full background of this individual.
We'll never know Thry.
I guess that even with the best educational, parental support, mental health, police and judicial systems, folk will still slip through the cracks.
Would any of the above have helped in this instance?
Would any of the above have helped avoid the Bourke street incident??
I don't think it would have unless I dont have the full background of this individual.
How s h i t gets done
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00naoyE_kv0
Cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't...
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/cop-brett-mccormick-pleads-not-guilty-to-reckless-conduct-over-highspeed-chase/news-story/694824e0277d80a55ab4ca46a82996f1
Cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't...
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/cop-brett-mccormick-pleads-not-guilty-to-reckless-conduct-over-highspeed-chase/news-story/694824e0277d80a55ab4ca46a82996f1
The worlds gone mad! Let the police police FFS. You know things are forked when we go harder at the men in blue than we do the scumbags they are trying to apprehend.
Cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't...
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/cop-brett-mccormick-pleads-not-guilty-to-reckless-conduct-over-highspeed-chase/news-story/694824e0277d80a55ab4ca46a82996f1
The court was told police had no policy of ramming cars in order to end a pursuit.
Well there's an easy fix.
Create a policy in which its allowed and this magically goes away.
Give police the power to stop these things without the worry of getting sued and an incident like this disappears.
Well there's an easy fix.
Create a policy in which its allowed and this magically goes away.
Give police the power to stop these things without the worry of getting sued and an incident like this disappears.
My late brother was a police officer for 20 years. One night when off duty, he saw four blokes bashing another bloke. He drove his car onto the footpath causing the four blokes to flee and saving the victim from serious injuries. He received a commendation for his actions. In the police force shaped by the Christine Nixon era, he would have been charged with dangerous driving :(
Shawny, I have highlighted this point in bold to try and understand something.
Are people born bad eggs, or do they become that way?
[/qu
Thanks for the Great discussion folks.
Re: nature v nurture
Contemporary science examines nature and nurture, and how they interact. Subsequently predicting human behavior can be very complex.
There are a multitude of predisposing (I.e low intellect), precipitating (parental separation), perpetuating (poverty), and then protective (social support) factors that play a role.
Whilst some factors predict behaviour in a reliable manner, others don't. Arguably the most extreme of these is drug use. Of course, drugs are reliably variable in structure and therefore effect. Further, they are produced by criminals with no regard for standardization. Indeed new concoctions hit the market continually. The way I see it, human behavior will become less predictable whilst this scourge of drugs continues. Aside from this, for predictions to be made, an individual needs to be assessed. This costs. Government is not in spending mode when it comes to some public services (as stretched public servants will know).
There's no doubt this event is unbelievably tragic. The answers, however, are likely to require more resources than are on hand. My 2cents worth anyway.
PS. Don't know what I did, but I managed to stuff up the format ooops :-\
Saw program on TV about a year ago on nature v. nurture. To cut a long story short, some people are born with proclivity to be bad and if these folk are subjected to poor or abusive upbringing they will likely become bad. Children born without the proclivities are much less likely to become bad even if their upbringing is bad. Also people with bad proclivity are much less likely to become bad if they get good upbringing.
Saw program on TV about a year ago on nature v. nurture. To cut a long story short, some people are born with proclivity to be bad and if these folk are subjected to poor or abusive upbringing they will likely become bad. Children born without the proclivities are much less likely to become bad even if their upbringing is bad. Also people with bad proclivity are much less likely to become bad if they get good upbringing.
In other words regardless of society and how a person is raised, things can be improved but never eliminated. There is and will always be bad eggs.
Therefore as I have said before double the sentence for those convicted of a serious crime and no bail for anyone charged with a serious offence. Take the onus off these bail justice and judges as they get it wrong too often.
I assure you they will be a lot less serious crimes if those 2 simply changes are made. Its as simply as that. Too many complicate things.
I can think of half a dozen innocent people that would be alive today if the above changes were made.