All ready for this afternoon. Hopefully we can do unto them what they want to do unto us!
This is a 'Clayton's' season as far as I'm concerned.
My only interest in it is watching us develop and set up for 2021.
There was a lot of positives there today.
Pittonet's fightback.
Docherty showing some glimpses of his pre-injury form.
Betts didn't have a great impact but his defensive pressure was great.
Cripps' didn't have a great game by his standards but still had an influence.
Weitering was solid.
Jack Martin will get better and better, the Big Pin showed guts by being flogged early but was very competitive after 1/4 time. McGovern pulled his finger out in the second half. Our set shots were disgraceful.
Weitering was better than solid, his first 2 games have been AA standard.
Gawn and Petracca set them up with buy in from many.
Meanwhile we slept.
Could easily have blown out from there. That we came back is of course, admirable and promising blah blah blah..
As well as we came back from what, 5 or 6 goals. Good sides simply won't let us off so easily. Set shots were atrocious. They've been training alone for ages. You'd expect goal kicking to be one very practiced skill 😖
Tidy that up and come to play from the first bounce and we're a chance. Don't and the writing is on the wall 🥄
That was screwing crap. Sick of the horrible slow starts costing us. Giving no credit at all to the comeback. I want Teague to go the full Terry Wallace "i'll spew up" in a similar game. He needs to let fly with this speech as it's not good enough. Ability is one thing, attitude is another. Two games, a 50 and 42pts start to go down by small margins, especially today. Not good enough!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoCaEzcJCtg
The strong starts need to be generated by the leaders in the club, they need to take responsibility. Cripps, Murphy and Curnow were in the centre square for the first 10 minutes and made zero impression. No use blaming McGovern, Lang, Betts, Cunningham etc early on......because the ball didn’t get near them!!!
Our leaders let us down when it counted.
Rinse repeat.
Murphy and Cunningham's poise and skill in traffic saved gave us momentum when we needed it. Players like Newnes and Setters need to shake it up. Don't get me started about Lang. I think we really missed the strength of SOJ - could have been the difference 😥 especially to lessen Petracca's early influence.
H struggled against the monster may. McGovern started like he needs glasses, which I've said before. Got better over time, especially when he was higher up the ground. Jack will be good for us up forward.
Doc was rusty but worked his way into it. Samo's disposal was unusually poor (? Injur) Weiters was one of our best imo.
Big Pito adapted against the best. Showed real determination. I thought Levi used his size effectively.
Jack Martin will get better and better, the Big Pin showed guts by being flogged early but was very competitive after 1/4 time. McGovern pulled his finger out in the second half. Our set shots were disgraceful.
Weitering was better than solid, his first 2 games have been AA standard.
Agree on Weitering he was our best player, Pittonet tried hard after half time....McGovern for 800k a season is ripping us off....
Martin is quality but needs to get more ball, Eddie was poor and with Cripps breaking even with Oliver it put more pressure on our lesser mids. It was a carp game between two bottom teams and its just hard to take losing to garbage like Melbourne, I really thought we would win well..
Agree on Weitering he was our best player, Pittonet tried hard after half time....McGovern for 800k a season is ripping us off....
Martin is quality but needs to get more ball, Eddie was poor and with Cripps breaking even with Oliver it put more pressure on our lesser mids. It was a carp game between two bottom teams and its just hard to take losing to garbage like Melbourne, I really thought we would win well..
50 and 42pt starts for two close losses. Had enough of that crap.
Goodwin got the 4 points, but I'm sure he realises they are miles off the pace. 2018 must feel like a long time ago.
17th vs16th
50 and 42pt starts for two close losses. Had enough of that crap.
Can handle losing to Richmond but not Melbourne...carp team, carp coach and scoring zero points in the first quarter to hackers like the Dees is embarrassing...
We play a bruise free brand(Cripps and a couple of others excepted) and still cant master basic skills like kicking set shots for goal.
That clip from Wallace just doesn't do it. You can cuss and yell as much as you like, but if you don't have that fearsome demeanour, and if it's not part of you, it just doesn't wash. Also, at the very end where he says to shower and then he'll meet up at the social club, that takes out whatever tiny sting his words had to begin with.
If Malthouse or Clarkson delivered that spray...............
Very very disappointed with that.
Watched with a mate who supports the Swans.
He said gee a lot of your blokes look lazy and disinterested....and he was right. Zero intensity.
And our decision making! FMD. Even with minutes to go we had the ball in possession and gave it up so lamely.
Teague should be worried by that effort.
Goal kicking. What the f.. do these blokes do at training day in, day out?
Last quarter 3.5 to 0.1.
Shameful.
CARLTON 0.0 2.5 4.6 7.11 (53)
MELBOURNE 5.2 7.4 8.5 8.6 (54)
GOALS
Carlton: Cuningham, Lang, Casboult, McGovern, Gibbons, Betts, Cripps No multiple goal kickers!
Melbourne: Hunt 3, Neal-Bullen 2, Petracca 2, Fritsch
BEST
Carlton: Murphy, Docherty, Weitering, Petrevski-Seton, McGovern, Curnow
Melbourne: Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Salem, Langdon, Viney
INJURIES
Carlton: Newman (knee) A bad blow for us. Hopefully Williamson did OK in the scratch match.
Melbourne: Nil
Free kicks: 13 to us, 18 to them.
Tackles 41 to 50!
Hit outs: 26 to 34
I know I have been blowing my horn about getting a top ruckman now for years, but it would be nice if our match committee and recruiters could understand that.
Docherty and Murphy 24 possessions, Cripps and Curnow 21,
The statistics suggest that not enough was done by too many, even with a great 2nd half.
A question I have: did somebody play close and hard on Oliver? He doesn't like it. he isn't easy to tag, when his ruckman is dominating, but he can be smashed and he does retaliate. So, did we tag him?
Did we tag anyone?
When does the agony end? I am over so-called gallant second halves that still leave us without the four points.
It doesn't matter who the coach is, we still present the same garbage week in week out. Dreadful decision making. Dreadful kicking to position. Aside from Weitering and Jones, how many of our players can kick 40 metres or more with accuracy and penetration?
And the last 3 minutes of the game showed the weakness and immaturity in so many of our players with them looking as though they had stage fright and crumbling under pressure.
That clip from Wallace just doesn't do it. You can cuss and yell as much as you like, but if you don't have that fearsome demeanour, and if it's not part of you, it just doesn't wash. Also, at the very end where he says to shower and then he'll meet up at the social club, that takes out whatever tiny sting his words had to begin with.
If Malthouse or Clarkson delivered that spray...............
Wallace was a caretaker that year. Similar game. Dogs down 8 goals to one at qtr time and lost by 6pts. They didn't look back after that spray. Finished the last few games well and were PF's the next two years. Occasionally this speech is just what you need. Just once in a while. It's about when you make the speech and this is the one Carlton should've been hit with after the game. Those starts are something that now happens too often and need eradicating.
Same for both teams I know, but a home crowd in that last quarter (Melb supporters don’t leave the G) would have made a significant difference. I just think back to the saints game last year and it was the crowd that significantly contributed to that victory.
They came prepared. We did not. It's hard to barrack for this at times.
Comes across often as though we don't even get the basics.
They came prepared. We did not. It's hard to barrack for this at times.
Comes across often as though we don't even get the basics.
Hard At times? I am dead set over it. I changed channels in the 1st in disgust when they kicked their 5th (11 I50s to nil). I just cant watch it anymore, sorry but I just cant. I feel for people who coughed up their hard earned to support them and get that crap in return. Call me a sook, fairweather supporter whatever, they wont get a cent out of me ever again. Nothing changes, same rubbish week in week out sprinkled with the odd win every now and then against the bottom sides. If I hear one more person mention our supposed top end talent I will spew up. We have Cripps, Weitering and maybe Doc if he can stay injury free. The rest are just very average footballers with no intensity, poor skills and turn up and perform occasionally to justify collecting a pay cheque. Five farken years we have been waiting for green shoots, young players, blah blah farken blah. As ol mate Dane Swan said, the world has changed forever in the wake of Covid19, there is a constant though, the CFC and their pathetic rinse repeat efforts.
Think Cripps needs to give them a spray - should he have to be throwing himself into contests all the time while lesser talents stand and watch? No. Sick of that. Make players accountable. mcGOv plays Great in patches and horrible in most patches. Why did he not get dragged after that stupid early kick for goal we needed that he missed? We have no one to physically impose themselves besides now Pitt by the looks of it!? You can have a few Lang’s setterfields newmans but you can’t have most of your team made of these. Gallant effort? Duck off, we scored ZERO in the first quarter. After waiting months to play again, we score ZERO!
Was it just me or did Gawn seem to get a lot of soft umpiring calls?
Unless Cripps has a big game we can’t win. Simple as that.
No star quality apart from Cripps in the midfield and we are usually playing catch up as we can’t compete early on when the heat is on. It’s bloody hard to improve when we give away so much week in week out where the majority of games are won and lost.
Was a game we just had to win against a bottom team and we failed again.
Will start 0/3 after next week. Not exactly the start needed for a team supposed to leap up the ladder this year.
Can look for positives all you want but the reality is we will again be a bottom team and will struggle to lure the midfield support form Cripps which we now already 2-3 years overdue for and every year we are more desperate for it.
Said it time and time again - until it happens we will stay a bottom team. End of story.
Twenty years of this sh1t. Over it.
Drop first three goals, chances of winning are <20%.
Tasmania here we come.
Was it just me or did Gawn seem to get a lot of soft umpiring calls?
I thought he got away with plenty today. Like hands in the back...
Twenty years of this sh1t. Over it.
Drop first three goals, chances of winning are <20%.
Tasmania here we come.
Prof we are the laughing stock of the AFL
CARLTON 0.0 2.5 4.6 7.11 (53)
MELBOURNE 5.2 7.4 8.5 8.6 (54)
GOALS
Carlton: Cuningham, Lang, Casboult, McGovern, Gibbons, Betts, Cripps No multiple goal kickers!
Melbourne: Hunt 3, Neal-Bullen 2, Petracca 2, Fritsch
BEST
Carlton: Murphy, Docherty, Weitering, Petrevski-Seton, McGovern, Curnow
Melbourne: Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Salem, Langdon, Viney
I'm sorry McGovern was in our bests?
I'd have him probably at the front of the queue to have a rest next week. Kicking was horrible. Chasing, lackluster. Impact, none.
Personally i thought our backline played very well after quarter time and losing Newman.
Weiters hardly got beaten all day.
Jones' intensity can never be questioned and his ability to give a teammate a chop out is excellent.
Docherty seems to have found his groove like he was never absent.
Plowman had a shaky start but reckon he won 90% of the contests from then on.
SPS has great ball movement and time and adjusting to his new role.
I realise it's foolish to try and be cheery in a losing post match thread, but take away that first q, and it's not all doom and gloom. We won the 2nd, 3rd and 4th q, had more scoring shots, more I50's, and frankly looked the better team for most of the match. Yes, it's only Melbourne, but if one of those behinds goes straight.................
I realise it's foolish to try and be cheery in a losing post match thread, but take away that first q, and it's not all doom and gloom. We won the 2nd, 3rd and 4th q, had more scoring shots, more I50's, and frankly looked the better team for most of the match. Yes, it's only Melbourne, but if one of those behinds goes straight.................
If my nonna had coglioni she'd be my nonno.
If my nonna had coglioni she'd be my nonno.
If your nonna is anything like my nonna, she probably had coglioni.
At any rate, the first q was awful, but it wasn't so bad after that.
Hard At times? I am dead set over it. I changed channels in the 1st in disgust when they kicked their 5th (11 I50s to nil). I just cant watch it anymore, sorry but I just cant. I feel for people who coughed up their hard earned to support them and get that crap in return. Call me a sook, fairweather supporter whatever, they wont get a cent out of me ever again. Nothing changes, same rubbish week in week out sprinkled with the odd win every now and then against the bottom sides. If I hear one more person mention our supposed top end talent I will spew up. We have Cripps, Weitering and maybe Doc if he can stay injury free. The rest are just very average footballers with no intensity, poor skills and turn up and perform occasionally to justify collecting a pay cheque. Five farken years we have been waiting for green shoots, young players, blah blah farken blah. As ol mate Dane Swan said, the world has changed forever in the wake of Covid19, there is a constant though, the CFC and their pathetic rinse repeat efforts.
I was being generous GTC. VERY
I was being generous GTC. VERY
I know mate, I'm filthy can you tell?
I'm not sure Cripps was 100%.
Just seemed to lack a bit of the usual explosiveness...and certainly the impact.
I know mate, I'm filthy can you tell?
Wouldna guessed 8) :)
I'm not sure Cripps was 100%.
Just seemed to lack a bit of the usual explosiveness...and certainly the impact.
The strapping on his knee seems to get bigger every week.
If your nonna is anything like my nonna, she probably had coglioni.
At any rate, the first q was awful, but it wasn't so bad after that.
You're telling me, I turned off after they kicked their 5th, I just could watch any more. And by that, I mean I cant watch anymore, not this week, next week, the week after and so on. I cant do the "1st qtr was bad, the rest was ok" thing. All I see is the 1st qtr over and over and over. Nuffs enuff.
‘Besides the first quarter / half / third quarter / last quarter / first 5 minutes / Last 5 minutes
Bull dust constant bull dust
They are professional athletes that play a game with a sole objective to win. That is it. Not a close finish or a good come back.
Over the excuses, and I have been waiting and waiting and patient.
Can not rely on Crippa to do it all - kid will leave soon enough
Don’t like to kick when down but when they cannot score in one whole quarter, the first after 3 months away. Not one score. No rushed behind. Nothing.
Sad
Very hard when you list contains just 3 at best A grade players in Cripps, doc and Weitering
Add in at best 3-4 B graders.
The rest of the side is C grade and below.
5 years into a rebuild and still a bottom team.
Miles behind where I thought we would be.
I'm not sure Cripps was 100%.
Just seemed to lack a bit of the usual explosiveness...and certainly the impact.
His eyes were a bit sunken as well, like he'd been unwell.
Two points only to make. (1) - Marc Murphy, '0' tackles in 2 games (3 hours) of football this year. What an inspirational leader. (2) Teague. Honestly, why can't we spend money on a proper coach who can adequately 'prepare' the players to start from the first quarter. Here we go again. Big spoon chance in an asterix season.
Hard At times? I am dead set over it. I changed channels in the 1st in disgust when they kicked their 5th (11 I50s to nil). I just cant watch it anymore, sorry but I just cant. I feel for people who coughed up their hard earned to support them and get that crap in return. Call me a sook, fairweather supporter whatever, they wont get a cent out of me ever again. Nothing changes, same rubbish week in week out sprinkled with the odd win every now and then against the bottom sides. If I hear one more person mention our supposed top end talent I will spew up. We have Cripps, Weitering and maybe Doc if he can stay injury free. The rest are just very average footballers with no intensity, poor skills and turn up and perform occasionally to justify collecting a pay cheque. Five farken years we have been waiting for green shoots, young players, blah blah farken blah. As ol mate Dane Swan said, the world has changed forever in the wake of Covid19, there is a constant though, the CFC and their pathetic rinse repeat efforts.
The club is a disaster. I have copped so much on here for about 7 years about how negative i am etc. Truth is, we are, have been, and will always be a rabble until we get rid of the board. The board appoints the CEO, and sets the culture. Our culture is one of 'losing' and 'all in boys club'. I mean, John Barker, what the hell is he still there for. Joke
Don’t like to kick when down but when they cannot score in one whole quarter, the first after 3 months away. Not one score. No rushed behind. Nothing.
That Nunes lad is a fine pick up. Not. Another one of SOS's champs.
Sad
I'm not sure Cripps was 100%.
Just seemed to lack a bit of the usual explosiveness...and certainly the impact.
He was on the bench having what looked like his ankle strapped. I could be mistaken, watching a small screen 👓
Very hard when you list contains just 3 at best A grade players in Cripps, doc and Weitering
Add in at best 3-4 B graders.
The rest of the side is C grade and below.
5 years into a rebuild and still a bottom team.
Miles behind where I thought we would be.
Yep, that about sums it up.
A sobering realisation of what happens when coaching diligence is not applied to glaring deficiencies.
Plenty of teams have started badly and gone on to make it a real contest. Another few minutes and we would have rolled them. Melbourne aren't that flash, but neither are we. Go back and watch the game - we were the better team for the most part, and we deserved the 4 points. We won't be scaring any top teams, but I never expected anything different, Teague or no Teague.
But there's little point in trying to take a holistic position - the I've-had-a-gutful brigade always rules the airwaves after such losses.
.....................(2) Teague. Honestly, why can't we spend money on a proper coach who can adequately 'prepare' the players to start from the first quarter. Here we go again. Big spoon chance in an asterix season.
Names please.
Cripps was tagged by Oliver like he usually is, and the Melbourne player did a fair job. Cripps should have taken the points by kicking those set shot goals and it's the only weakness in his game but its just so costly.
Re Kruds comments on McGovern... Fully agree, as I said earlier he has given us sfa and just taken the money. That easy goal he missed was crucial, if that was Paddy Dow he would have been crucified but McGovern continues to escape criticism. If he fails to deliver vs Geelong I would drop him.
What was with the first quarter? I know Pittonett was getting Reamed by Gawn but how did we not manage one score?
What was with the first quarter? I know Pittonett was getting Reamed by Gawn but how did we not manage one score?
Asleep and comprehensively outworked and outplayed.
A sobering realisation of what happens when coaching diligence is not applied to glaring deficiencies.
The "Ive had a Gutful brigade" (me being one) have every right to feel the way we do, IMO anyone who doesnt is just showing blind navy blue faith. Looking at qtrs or mins where we played well in a loss just doesn't cut it anymore. That was fine 3-4 years ago, not now. People making excuses for Cripps saying he looked sick, hurt whatever, its BS. You cross the line, p!55 or get off the pot. Our players have had a preseason to prepare for Richmond and failed. They had 86 days to rectify it and failed. My concerns are:
- They still cant hit targets, our skills are appalling right across the board.
- They still miss easy shots at goal
- They cant lay a tackle to save themselves
- Ball winning is reliant on Cripps
- Winning is reliant on Cripps having a good/great game.
- They continue to put the same line ups out on the park based on FIIK what form. Try someone different, blood a few kids.
Despite all the hype, potential and what not, I don't think this list is up to it I'm afraid, every other team has gone passed us in some way, where as Carlton is if nothing else, consistently inconsistent.
Asleep and comprehensively outworked and outplayed.
Two words - wasted opportunity.
For mine, any blame lies firmly at the feet of the midfield/midfield coach (ultimately, the senior coach). It was very evident from the get-go that Gawn was the dominant ruck yet there was no midfield smarts to understand, adjust and CHANGE. Had the midfield used their brains and adjusted (did the midfield coach give them a plan B?), then things would likely have been very, very different. The same old lament... poor on-field leadership, especially initiative and boldness to alter the tide - IN GAME, too often it takes a rocket/adjustment from the coaching staff at the break to affect change... FFS.
For Gawn, that first qtr was a picnic, nothing more than a training drill, he repeated the same things, which, strategically, met no opposition, over and over and they resulted in goal after goal. There should be no blame on Pitts... he gave his all and did his best.
I believe the club knows this, hence such vigor in trying to secure grade A mids to the club... and have failed, dismally to achieve this.
The midfield coach should be asking himself how come he didn't have the engine room ready to blast out of the blocks and be equipped with a plan B should Gawn dominate (a likely scenario). Rather, the mids started with a whimper and seemed clueless for on-field initiative to adapt and adjust. On-field, this is squarely at the feet of Cripps, Murphy and Curnow. Gibbons showed them how it was done by sharking/roving to Gawn at times and our first goal (I think) came from him knowing what Gawn was going to do and sharked the tap out... initiative/on-field footy smarts.
We lost this game above the shoulders.
We've go too many blokes taking the piss. Talking it up but not putting it up.
Examples need to be made. I'd start with McGovern. And I'm getting Spanners drift.... If Murphy can't impact games, time to go mate. Running around getting a few kicks ain't enough.
Two words - wasted opportunity.
For mine, any blame lies firmly at the feet of the midfield/midfield coach (ultimately, the senior coach). It was very evident from the get-go that Gawn was the dominant ruck yet there was no midfield smarts to understand, adjust and CHANGE. Had the midfield used their brains and adjusted (did the midfield coach give them a plan B?), then things would likely have been very, very different. The same old lament... poor on-field leadership, especially initiative and boldness to alter the tide - IN GAME, too often it takes a rocket/adjustment from the coaching staff at the break to affect change... FFS.
For Gawn, that first qtr was a picnic, nothing more than a training drill, he repeated the same things, which, strategically, met no opposition, over and over and they resulted in goal after goal. There should be no blame on Pitts... he gave his all and did his best.
I believe the club knows this, hence such vigor in trying to secure grade A mids to the club... and have failed, dismally to achieve this.
The midfield coach should be asking himself how come he didn't have the engine room ready to blast out of the blocks and be equipped with a plan B should Gawn dominate (a likely scenario). Rather, the mids started with a whimper and seemed clueless for on-field initiative to adapt and adjust. On-field, this is squarely at the feet of Cripps, Murphy and Curnow. Gibbons showed them how it was done by sharking/roving to Gawn at times and our first goal (I think) came from him knowing what Gawn was going to do and sharked the tap out... initiative/on-field footy smarts.
We lost this game above the shoulders.
The midfield coach needs to go as he is an imbecile. I was listening to some one on radio the other day, a past great of the game, I cant for the life of me remember who. He made the comment that its always been a simple game, you need to win the ball and get it forward and that is now, its too complicated by over the top tactics and game plans. A coach who can peel it back and simply the game will be very successful I reckon. Its almost like kids come into the game knowing how to play football and one year into the system, they are lobotomised and forget how to play. Then again, maybe thats only applicable to Carlton players.
Two words - wasted opportunity.
For mine, any blame lies firmly at the feet of the midfield/midfield coach (ultimately, the senior coach). It was very evident from the get-go that Gawn was the dominant ruck yet there was no midfield smarts to understand, adjust and CHANGE. Had the midfield used their brains and adjusted (did the midfield coach give them a plan B?), then things would likely have been very, very different. The same old lament... poor on-field leadership, especially initiative and boldness to alter the tide - IN GAME, too often it takes a rocket/adjustment from the coaching staff at the break to affect change... FFS.
For Gawn, that first qtr was a picnic, nothing more than a training drill, he repeated the same things, which, strategically, met no opposition, over and over and they resulted in goal after goal. There should be no blame on Pitts... he gave his all and did his best.
I believe the club knows this, hence such vigor in trying to secure grade A mids to the club... and have failed, dismally to achieve this.
The midfield coach should be asking himself how come he didn't have the engine room ready to blast out of the blocks and be equipped with a plan B should Gawn dominate (a likely scenario). Rather, the mids started with a whimper and seemed clueless for on-field initiative to adapt and adjust. On-field, this is squarely at the feet of Cripps, Murphy and Curnow. Gibbons showed them how it was done by sharking/roving to Gawn at times and our first goal (I think) came from him knowing what Gawn was going to do and sharked the tap out... initiative/on-field footy smarts.
We lost this game above the shoulders.
Great post
I’ve personally had enough of
- Poor team selection. How can it be that we pick Lang? Questioning Newnes as well.
- Murphy’s weakness as an inside mid, he’s nothing more than cannon fodder in the guts.
- Ed Curnow kicking the ball inside 50. He can’t do it and it’s obvious to everybody watching except our coaches. He’s a tagger and nothing more.
- Will Setterfield floating around like Ms Daisy, hoping nobody will notice that his failed to impact yet another game. Get some intensity and desire boy.
- SPS on the HBF. He’s normally a great kick but can’t defend and lack night but if you wanted to point the finger at somebody that absolutely crucified our team in the first quarter through a lack of accountability and poor disposal, this is your man. Not good enough.
-lack of a small tough lock down defender. Haven’t had one for what seems like a couple of decades.
Solutions?
- Martin to a wing (wasted up forward)
- Murphy forward (he’s clever)
- SPS into the middle which is why we drafted him.
- Curnow to be instructed not to kick into 50 (handpass off or go sideways if need be)
- one of Silvagni or Kennedy plus Gibbons to help Cripps as extra inside miss, with players like SPS, Walsh, Dow, Fisher, Philp, Cunningham to finish.
- Lang, Newnes, Setterfield to prove themselves in lower leagues subject to our VFL form
Views??
Re:Midfield, Cripps was often contained away from the ball and Melbourne set up with Gawn directing the ball away from him.
Same old same old if Cripps is contained to an average game then we struggle.
Setterfield was thrown into the middle after the damage was done early but he hasn't put on much size and didn't impact.
Cripps needs help and it's the same story all through the rebuild where we have struggled to find another Midfield bull to help him.
It seems like the old adage of you play the same way as you train.
Two games this year but many games over the years we have failed to fire a shot in the first qtr only to just miss out on the chocolates.
The players must do this at training, just gradually build their intensity instead of warm up then into it.
There also seems to be a lack of intensity at training, yeah sure enough they run around and tackle each other and work up a sweat but this is similar to what happens on game day. There is no 'I'm going to make this personal' or I'm going to really hurt you tackles, there are no consequences for not succeeding.
Goal kicking?????? They must practice it but if they miss at training they just grab another ball and try and get it with the next one.
There are no consequences for missing, no pressure! This is what needs to be replicated at training, pressure.
Throw the medical science out the window that says you can only kick 10 times or can only be out on the training ground for x number of minutes.
Training should be harder than the game. The sessions don't need to go as long as a game but needs the same intensity, pressure and that feeling of the need to succeed and to win every battle.
I know it is different sport but when I played high level volleyball our training's were always harder than our games and the results proved it. Undefeated for 3 years in a row and won 9 titles in a row. (age is what got us in the end)
Also dislike the smiling at the end of the games when we lose. They seem to not care.
West Coast got pumped by Gold Coast....
It's been a very weird year.
Even discounting the deplorable first quarter, we should have won that in a canter but for terrible kicking.
The kicking at goal, from relatively easy positions, in benign conditions, was below sub standard.
Our midfield was down, Pittonet aside (terrific debut), and our forward line was a mess, ditto the delivery I50.
We'll improve markedly from that effort.
Of bigger concern was a lot of our guys looked to be holding back/waiting for someone else to do the heavy lifting.
Unacceptable at this level.
Would be getting McGovern's eyes checked - he missed a lot of marks by a wide margin, despite being in a great position to mark.
Bad news for Newman, obviously. But great that Willo can now come in...
Setterfield had been a bitter disappointment. Ditto Kennedy and the rest of the acquired midfielders.
The drafted midfielders need to step up as well. Somebody needs to grab the ring, or too be frank, time to piss them off and get a new batch in.
The biggest issue we just cant overcome was again on show yesterday - Had the match on our terms for the last 3 quarters when Cripps goal got us to one point down it at that stage the game was our to lose. They were on there knees waiting for the knockout punch but we have no one who can deliver it.
If rolls were swapped yesterday I can tell you Melbourne would have kicked the last goal to take the points.
I reckon I can think of 10 times in the last 2 years we had games in the last quarter that was ours to take but we fail time and time again. Our culture is a losing one and has been for the that long its now ingrained.
Solutions?
- Martin to a wing (wasted up forward) YES
- Murphy forward (he’s clever)
- SPS into the middle which is why we drafted him. YES
- Curnow to be instructed not to kick into 50 (handpass off or go sideways if need be) YES
- one of Silvagni or Kennedy plus Gibbons to help Cripps as extra inside miss, with players like SPS, Walsh, Dow, Fisher, Philp, Cunningham to finish.
- Lang, Newnes, Setterfield to prove themselves in lower leagues subject to our VFL form YES
Murphy gets one more chance, just doesn't give enough.
Setters out. Pathetic.
Lang was ok but SOJ or Kennedy better by some margin.
Newnes injured? O'Brien the obvious replacement.
Philp in too - some outside zing is needed.
Our defensive midfield effort is a disgrace.
It's hardly the Monopoly "get out of jail card" in such an idiotic ill considered season but it should have presented the opportunity to at least correct some of the failings and stamp the head coach's authority. We have too many "mini managers" masquerading and taking a pay cheque under false pretences.
The biggest issue we just cant overcome was again on show yesterday - Had the match on our terms for the last 3 quarters when Cripps goal got us to one point down it at that stage the game was our to lose. They were on there knees waiting for the knockout punch but we have no one who can deliver it.
If rolls were swapped yesterday I can tell you Melbourne would have kicked the last goal to take the points.
I reckon I can think of 10 times in the last 2 years we had games in the last quarter that was ours to take but we fail time and time again. Our culture is a losing one and has been for the that long its now ingrained.
Our three big forwards need to sort out a system.
Harry looked rusty, the Guv just stuffs up too much presently.
Our forward 6 looked squashed up, there was no space....plenty of talent there but wasn't working at all yesterday.
Won the I50 count easily....
Everyone knows we should have won that game yesterday, even after Q1.
It's on out leadership group to step up. That where tight games get won....
Cripps can't do it every week.
Weiters was very, very good.
Murphy gets one more chance, just doesn't give enough.
Setters out. Pathetic.
Lang was ok but SOJ or Kennedy better by some margin.
Newnes injured? O'Brien the obvious replacement.
Philp in too - some outside zing is needed.
Our defensive midfield effort is a disgrace.
You have changed your thoughts Fly?
Wasn't Setterfield, Lang and Newnes going to be the answers to our midfield depth issues. We just keep swapping one dud for another.
Will be another big broom go thru the place end of this year
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I reckon I can think of 10 times in the last 2 years we had games in the last quarter that was ours to take but we fail time and time again. Our culture is a losing one and has been for the that long its now ingrained.
I agree 100%. But I think last night we just ran our of time. I'm not in any way suggesting that everything is hunky dory - there's still problems that need fixing, and there still pieces of the puzzle missing, but we had them on toast.
That final step of a winning mindset is the hardest to achieve. We were in the lead in the 4th in 4 games of Bolton's 2019 season, and just couldn't get it done. We can still see the same issue now. I say it's partly youth, partly self belief, partly questionable skills, partly decision making, partly kicking for goal. It will come, but not nearly as soon as we all want IMO.
Murphy gets one more chance, just doesn't give enough.
Setters out. Pathetic.
Lang was ok but SOJ or Kennedy better by some margin.
Newnes injured? O'Brien the obvious replacement.
Philp in too - some outside zing is needed.
Our defensive midfield effort is a disgrace.
Not sure about O'brien helping much, rather try Philp and get Williamson back in.
Might try Mcgovern down back and get Jack back in to play forward.
Also think about Kennedy to play down forward on Stewart who tears us a new one most games as no one
picks him up and its stupid how many easy kicks he gets.
Our scouting and pre planning is also horrendous, how many times do we see the same opposition players
playing well year after year against us and we dont do anything different.
You have changed your thoughts Fly?
Wasn't Setterfield, Lang and Newnes going to be the answers to our midfield depth issues. We just keep swapping one dud for another.
Will be another big broom go thru the place end of this year
Lang was never an answer as a mid and I doubt I ever said as such....i can see why they picked him up (what 3 years ago now?) but he's had injuries and simply doesn't do enough now. Philp for him is a no brainer.
But, why hasn't had been given a crack in the guts?
The other two simply aren't getting their job done....still have high hopes for Setters, Newnes always just a soldier but didn't even do that last night.
That said, all of them were off the pace for a lot of it last night.
Who's our midfield coach? Big, big FAIL.
Lang was never an answer as a mid and I doubt I ever said as such....i can see why they picked him up (what 3 years ago now?) but he's had injuries and simply doesn't do enough now. Philp for him is a no brainer.
But, why hasn't had been given a crack in the guts?
The other two simply aren't getting their job done....still have high hopes for Setters, Newnes always just a soldier but didn't even do that last night.
That said, all of them were off the pace for a lot of it last night.
Who's our midfield coach? Big, big FAIL.
Clarkson wouldnt be able to help our midfield group.
You need the players to be able to coach them.
Apart from Walsh and Cripps the rest are not ready or most never will be.
Said it countless times you can’t keep selecting players other teams are throwing out and expect them to be the answer.
A blind man could see where we needed a massive boost and SOS never got it done.
So glad we have someone else this trade period.
I realise it's foolish to try and be cheery in a losing post match thread, but take away that first q, and it's not all doom and gloom. We won the 2nd, 3rd and 4th q, had more scoring shots, more I50's, and frankly looked the better team for most of the match. Yes, it's only Melbourne, but if one of those behinds goes straight.................
I think that’s the issue Paul; we were the better team in terms of last season’s ladder position, strength on paper and our performance for two thirds of the game. Even though we could have put a stronger team on the park, our lack of intensity and inability to play to a losing ruckman at the start of the game was inexcusable. Surely Teague, Barker and Stanton would have prepared for Gawn having a picnic ::)
I think that’s the issue Paul; we were the better team in terms of last season’s ladder position, strength on paper and our performance for two thirds of the game. Even though we could have put a stronger team on the park, our lack of intensity and inability to play to a losing ruckman at the start of the game was inexcusable. Surely Teague, Barker and Stanton would have prepared for Gawn having a picnic ::)
You can have all the plans in the world, but you can't execute the plan on the players' behalf. You can be quite certain the coaching group understood the ruck disparity and understood what Gawn can do, and I have no doubt that they planned for a few things, including rucking to his tap outs. But if the players don't get it, refuse to do it, or simply can't do it, there's little a coach can do IMO.
Hopeless. Seriously hopeless. Cannot see a light at the end of the tunnel. I see us plodding along through to another spoon this year. Then going through the motions to getting a couple of more wins next year after which time Cripps leaves us as a free agent to pursue a flag with WC. That will leave us shattered again for another decade before we inevitably try another rebuild.
From yesterday;
1. The club is seriously taking the P1ZZ out of every member at the CFC if they are seriously suggesting Darcy Lang is worthy of a spot in our best 22.
2. Murphy cannot play forward folks. They tried that last year before Teague took over and he was next to useless. He played much better when Teague put him back on the ball. Unfortunately he is giving us very little this year and I fear he is going back to his old ways. Lot's of touches of little value.
3. SPS. As bad a start from an individual as I've ever seen. Got better but he has zero physicality. Can't see him playing on the ball. Not tough enough.
4. Ghosts, Setterfield and Newnes. Although, was Newnes tagging someone.
5. Weitering our best by far.
6. Ed took care of Petracca after getting the job. We just need to set him that job every week and nothing more.
7. McGovern. What a waste. Another CFC failure.
8. Sam Walsh had an average game and actually could have won it for us. With a 1:13 to go he kicks to McKay in a 2 on 1 which resulted in a free kick against. Then with just over a minute to go he had a kick to Jack Martin 20 metres out (or even Levi on the outside, 40 metres out) and unbelievably miss-kicked it straight onto Lever's chest. Can't go too hard on the boy, but there's the game right there.
9. Martin, great pick-up for nothing. I'd give him more of a run on the ball.
10. Pittonet. Not bad against the 2nd best ruck in the business and wasn't his fault our midfield are dopey MF's
11. Kicking at goal. At no stage do I think we will convert. Regardless of distance out or angle on goal. The miss by McGovern I could have kicked. He didn't even score. HE DIDN'T EVEN SCORE.
12. Backline good. Foward line average. Midfiled poor.
We'll be competitive against Geelong and lose but 30 or so points and lament that the effort against Geelong would have been enough to beat Melbourne by 5 goals.
The other thing that needs to be said is that the opposition has now had a good look at Teague, and his coaching ideas, structures, set ups etc. Clearly they've done their homework, and the shock of the new is now history.
........................
11. Kicking at goal. At no stage do I think we will convert. Regardless of distance out or angle on goal. The miss by McGovern I could have kicked. He didn't even score. HE DIDN'T EVEN SCORE.
......................
It's got to the point now where the only big man I want to be taking set shots is Levi. Amazingly, he is now our most reliable KP kick for goal.
Crazy.
Clarkson wouldnt be able to help our midfield group.
You need the players to be able to coach them.
Apart from Walsh and Cripps the rest are not ready or most never will be.
Said it countless times you can’t keep selecting players other teams are throwing out and expect them to be the answer.
A blind man could see where we needed a massive boost and SOS never got it done.
So glad we have someone else this trade period.
Rubbish.
Walsh was poor yesterday. Had multiple chances to deliver passes I50 at critical stages and butchered them all. He wasn't alone!
Ed was ok, Muphy bruise free....
Setters chose to leave GWS - should be cherry ripe this year but....needs to be played somewhere where he can find some form (2s ideally in a normal world).
Lang chose to walk - was one of the Cats best in at least 1 of the finals he played before leaving. But shouldn't be picked again unless we have major injuries...would prefer Owies getting a game.
Newnes - was offered a deal at Saints but clearly had had a falling out with the hierarchy there - was never going to be an A grader there or here. In any event, not the reason we lost yesterday but he now has the same malaise that most of our team has....Ikonitis?
SPS - not tough enough? BS. Throw him into the middle, leave him there....
We have the capacity (or did) to pay for another A grader. A Wines or Crouch or the ilk far more important to us than a Tom Papley type....
It's got to the point now where the only big man I want to be taking set shots is Levi. Amazingly, he is now our most reliable KP kick for goal.
Crazy.
I gather Big H rather rates Big H.
That needs to be sorted.
Who is the midfield coach? Please tell me it's not that useless crap truck Barker.
Like everybody else I'm bewildered by the rinse and repeat same old crap that was dished up - on every level - yesterday.
I just don't see a way out if this. We have, seriously, twenty players that have shown nothing on our list. We can't draft (consistently), we can't acquire players, we can't develop players, we lack football nous,
ability, skill, hardness, smarts, effort ....its a mobius loop of mediocrity going nowhere.
I'm utterly bereft how we're ever going to exit this situation. We've had a parallel before. Once hope and faith are lost, and let's face it, we're almost there, the club is finished. Like Fitzroy.
Rubbish.
Walsh was poor yesterday. Had multiple chances to deliver passes I50 at critical stages and butchered them all. He wasn't alone!
Ed was ok, Muphy bruise free....
Setters chose to leave GWS - should be cherry ripe this year but....needs to be played somewhere where he can find some form (2s ideally in a normal world).
Lang chose to walk - was one of the Cats best in at least 1 of the finals he played before leaving. But shouldn't be picked again unless we have major injuries...would prefer Owies getting a game.
Newnes - was offered a deal at Saints but clearly had had a falling out with the hierarchy there - was never going to be an A grader there or here. In any event, not the reason we lost yesterday but he now has the same malaise that most of our team has....Ikonitis?
SPS - not tough enough? BS. Throw him into the middle, leave him there....
We have the capacity (or did) to pay for another A grader. A Wines or Crouch or the ilk far more important to us than a Tom Papley type....
What’s rubbish is your optimism. You talk us up every single preseason then back flip 2 rounds in.
We are a laughing stock again. Already the media is into us and I don’t blame them.
20 years of rubbish.
Apart from Cripps Weitering and Doc our list is overrated and over hyped by supporters who refuse to accept we are and will stay a bottom team.
If we didn’t have a rebuild 5 years ago some would say we need one now. That’s how far off it we are. You say we have a better list then loins. My god!!!
But we have so much potential....heard it all year in year out. blah blah blah.
Proof is in the pudding. 2 rounds in and we already sit 2nd last on the ladder.
Heard today we haven’t spent one week in the top 8 since 2015!
Mark my words many on here will soon be questioning Teague and will say he is the problem and has to go.
Rinse and repeat.
Rubbish.
Walsh was poor yesterday. Had multiple chances to deliver passes I50 at critical stages and butchered them all. He wasn't alone!
Ed was ok, Muphy bruise free....
Setters chose to leave GWS - should be cherry ripe this year but....needs to be played somewhere where he can find some form (2s ideally in a normal world).
Lang chose to walk - was one of the Cats best in at least 1 of the finals he played before leaving. But shouldn't be picked again unless we have major injuries...would prefer Owies getting a game.
Newnes - was offered a deal at Saints but clearly had had a falling out with the hierarchy there - was never going to be an A grader there or here. In any event, not the reason we lost yesterday but he now has the same malaise that most of our team has....Ikonitis?
SPS - not tough enough? BS. Throw him into the middle, leave him there....
We have the capacity (or did) to pay for another A grader. A Wines or Crouch or the ilk far more important to us than a Tom Papley type....
Need both Wines and B. Crouch IMO......
SPS has the talent but doesnt do enough and when the game is a bit scrappy vs more average players he seems to sit back a bit IMO, the better the opposition the better he plays IMO. Would expect him to do much better vs Geelong this week.
We are a soft midfield IMO and need some bigger bodies like Wines to take the heat off Cripps
E. Curnow and Murphy are going to be calls we need to make at seasons end...dont think we can go with both...
Cripps, Walsh, Wines and B. Crouch...with M. Crouch a year later is more my type of midfield if you want to go places....
Total crap. Clearly, no one at the club really has any idea ... about anything.
Remember how Hawthorn never lost close games? Because they practiced and practiced different scenarios and setups. Hodge & co would call the shots and everyone knew what they had to do. No one panicked (a la Walsh in the dying minutes - but I’m not blaming him, one of my favourites). Of course, it helps if, once you have the ball, you can hit a target. Their disposal was elite which was not accidental because Clarkson had a vision and made it ‘happen’. What’s our vision?
Maybe I shouldn’t be so hard on Teague - set plays accommodating close finishes are the ‘icing on top’ once the basics have become ingrained - don’t want to overcoach the young boys. Main points being:
1) we still can’t get the basics right
2) we still lack on field leadership
Need both Wines and B. Crouch IMO......
SPS has the talent but doesnt do enough and when the game is a bit scrappy vs more average players he seems to sit back a bit IMO, the better the opposition the better he plays IMO. Would expect him to do much better vs Geelong this week.
He's not helped by the short quarters, he doesn't have the leg speed to play at the early high intensity. The coaches maybe missed a trick leaving him down back late in the game, he's one who could have found some space and finished in the last quarter, but what do you do when you've picked Lang?
Overall I wasn't happy, but it's not as bad as many are making out, the slow starts are a problem, but we had 3 or 4 posters and in the end probably should have won by 2 or 3 goals. Melbourne are over-rated, we aren't the team to judge them by, they barely tripped over the line due to our inability to finish!
...
Overall I wasn't happy, but it's not as bad as many are making out, the slow starts are a problem, but we had 3 or 4 posters and in the end probably should have won by 2 or 3 goals. Melbourne are over-rated, we aren't the team to judge them by, they barely tripped over the line due to our inability to finish!
Agree.
Need both Wines and B. Crouch IMO......
SPS has the talent but doesnt do enough and when the game is a bit scrappy vs more average players he seems to sit back a bit IMO, the better the opposition the better he plays IMO. Would expect him to do much better vs Geelong this week.
We are a soft midfield IMO and need some bigger bodies like Wines to take the heat off Cripps
E. Curnow and Murphy are going to be calls we need to make at seasons end...dont think we can go with both...
Cripps, Walsh, Wines and B. Crouch...with M. Crouch a year later is more my type of midfield if you want to go places....
Getting those sorts of experienced proven footballers had to be introduced from early on in the rebuild like loins did while you can still sell hope.
Good luck getting 2 or 3 to come in plus we will still probably want Papely when we finish bottom 2-3 again. Plus word is Cripps has put off contract extension talk. Can’t say I blame him.
List is severely unbalanced and trying to fix it in one draft smells of desperation. I’m afraid the horse has bolted.
He's not helped by the short quarters, he doesn't have the leg speed to play at the early high intensity. The coaches maybe missed a trick leaving him down back late in the game, he's one who could have found some space and finished in the last quarter, but what do you do when you've picked Lang?
Overall I wasn't happy, but it's not as bad as many are making out, the slow starts are a problem, but we had 3 or 4 posters and in the end probably should have won by 2 or 3 goals. Melbourne are over-rated, we aren't the team to judge them by, they barely tripped over the line due to our inability to finish!
Problem is Melbourne are crap.....we should have whipped their Ar$e by 5 goals minimum, we have a history of losing the close games to rubbish teams. Even if we won by 1 point it wouldnt have been great....Gold Coast flogged West Coast, thats the type of improvement we need to be seeing after 5 years...
The will to win, the love of the contest...its not there, we have no spirit, all those weeks off and then turn in a scoreless 1st quarter, disgraceful...we lose to Melbourne and then have to look at GC who are young and on paper poor beating WC, doesnt get more depressing IMHO.
Unless Cripps has a big game we can’t win. Simple as that.
No star quality apart from Cripps in the midfield and we are usually playing catch up as we can’t compete early on when the heat is on. It’s bloody hard to improve when we give away so much week in week out where the majority of games are won and lost.
Was a game we just had to win against a bottom team and we failed again.
Will start 0/3 after next week. Not exactly the start needed for a team supposed to leap up the ladder this year.
Can look for positives all you want but the reality is we will again be a bottom team and will struggle to lure the midfield support form Cripps which we now already 2-3 years overdue for and every year we are more desperate for it.
Said it time and time again - until it happens we will stay a bottom team. End of story.
We won a few without him in the second half of last year. If we had started with the commitment we should have we'd have played a cliff hanger against Richmond, might've lost but it would've been damn close, and pumped Melbourne. Then we wouldn't be talking as much about players. The issue was we had a highly winnable game, a "should win", and we pissed it down the drain through a lack of early commitment. In last year's late run we started like dogs against Brisbane, Dogs, Freo, Melbourne, Richmond and fell over 4 goals behind in the 2nd qtr against the Saints. We won 3 of those of those and lost 2 others by less than a kick, not to mention giving up a 6 goal start against the premiers and getting pretty close late in the wet. Now this year we started even worse against Richmond and Melbourne. Sick of praising great fightbacks, even if we win, because we shouldn't be in that position in the first place. Too often and not good enough.
...................................Gold Coast flogged West Coast, thats the type of improvement we need to be seeing after 5 years...
..............................and then have to look at GC who are young and on paper poor beating WC, doesnt get more depressing IMHO.
No doubt that win was good, but I'd be waiting for a larger sample space before seeing whether they have really turned a corner or just had one of those flukey wins. Just my opinion.
Problem is Melbourne are crap.....we should have whipped their Ar$e by 5 goals minimum, we have a history of losing the close games to rubbish teams. Even if we won by 1 point it wouldnt have been great....Gold Coast flogged West Coast, thats the type of improvement we need to be seeing after 5 years...
The will to win, the love of the contest...its not there, we have no spirit, all those weeks off and then turn in a scoreless 1st quarter, disgraceful...we lose to Melbourne and then have to look at GC who are young and on paper poor beating WC, doesnt get more depressing IMHO.
Yes, no good loving the contest once you're 7 goals down. Nice to see some spirit rises to the top eventually but it has to happen from the start. We've had commitment/attitude problems for years, essentially the whole century bar a few years, and that's the job Teague has, to eradicate those problems. Essentially an on-field culture. That is going to take a while to instill as it rarely happens overnight.
No doubt that win was good, but I'd be waiting for a larger sample space before seeing whether they have really turned a corner or just had one of those flukey wins. Just my opinion.
Yes, GC tend to have a good win or two early in the year before falling off a cliff.
Good to see their young one's are committing to the club early.
Our three big forwards need to sort out a system.
Harry looked rusty, the Guv just stuffs up too much presently.
Our forward 6 looked squashed up, there was no space....plenty of talent there but wasn't working at all yesterday.
Won the I50 count easily....
Everyone knows we should have won that game yesterday, even after Q1.
It's on out leadership group to step up. That where tight games get won....
Cripps can't do it every week.
Weiters was very, very good.
Harry started well, then Dees switched to going the body on him and he barely got another kick. If umps treated him the same way they treated Gawn, he would have had 15 frees
Yes Gawn gets very well looked after....
The I50 delivery was back to its worst and Big H and the Guv simply didn't lead enough....but often are ball movement was so slow and haphazard hard for them to know when and where to go?
Harry started well, then Dees switched to going the body on him and he barely got another kick. If umps treated him the same way they treated Gawn, he would have had 15 frees
People blame the crowds, but at the moment there is no crowd, it's the opposition officials and coaches talking in the media that influence the outcome more than anything else!
Last season Melbourne bitched and moaned about Gawn's treatment at the hands of various opponents, Dimma is continually complaining about how hard done by Dusty, Cotchin or Riewoldt is, despite those three being some of the biggest offenders. Clarkson was always banging on about Buddy, or how we didn't want players like Hodge prevented from attacking the football. Scott never stops bleating about the treatment of Danger, Ablett or Selwood, they need protection.
At our club, guys like Murphy, Cripps, Fisher, Kreuzer get illegally smashed week and week out and it's crickets!
Surely, yesterday with Gawn in the absence of crowds, added to events like Dangerfield's Curnow commentary, tells us this isn't a crowd problem!
We're soft, mentally and physically, end of story
The next bloke we draft has to a hard as *+*! Ultra competive mid. Dusty Ziebell Viney Selwood Hodge Lewis or even Rowell. That kind of bloke. No more pretty, nice, players like Fisher O'Brien SPS Murphy Dow Setterfield. Blokes that will smack the bloke next to them as soon as they get looked sideways at.
Got a lot of hope for Stocker, at least he's shown some grit. Why isn't he playing?
I want North Melbourne's attitude. They are invariably switched on and never give up. Give everything. Now they'll beat the GWS in Sydney. If we had what they had with the players we have, we'd be soooo much better. I want that intangible they have.
Five years ago at the beginning of the 2016 season we all bought the story that, following a rebuild, we long-suffering supporters would reach that great big shining light at the end of the tunnel.
We believed that by 2020 we would be serious contenders for the flag, well entrenched in the top 8.
So where are we? We have a side that is still incapable of playing four quarters of consistent football. We are so desperate for any signs of success that we seem to be happy if we can get a medium/maximum effort for three quarters of a game and hope the side can get off the bottom of the ladder.
I have just re-read this thread, and clearly we have so many problems I don't know where to start.
Motivation is lacking. So few of our players are desperate for the ball. It's like watching our old side before the re-build when players such as Gibbs would roll up and play bruise free football. Basic skills such as making tackles stick, and the ability to kick, are missing week in, week out. There is no mongrel in the side.
How is it that with so many early draft picks we are still so short of players with football nous and skills?
I hate being negative but realistically when are we ever going to stop being the bottom feeders of the AFL?
It seems like the old adage of you play the same way as you train.
Two games this year but many games over the years we have failed to fire a shot in the first qtr only to just miss out on the chocolates.
The players must do this at training, just gradually build their intensity instead of warm up then into it.
There also seems to be a lack of intensity at training, yeah sure enough they run around and tackle each other and work up a sweat but this is similar to what happens on game day. There is no 'I'm going to make this personal' or I'm going to really hurt you tackles, there are no consequences for not succeeding.
Goal kicking?????? They must practice it but if they miss at training they just grab another ball and try and get it with the next one.
There are no consequences for missing, no pressure! This is what needs to be replicated at training, pressure.
Throw the medical science out the window that says you can only kick 10 times or can only be out on the training ground for x number of minutes.
Training should be harder than the game. The sessions don't need to go as long as a game but needs the same intensity, pressure and that feeling of the need to succeed and to win every battle.
I know it is different sport but when I played high level volleyball our training's were always harder than our games and the results proved it. Undefeated for 3 years in a row and won 9 titles in a row. (age is what got us in the end)
Also dislike the smiling at the end of the games when we lose. They seem to not care.
Farkum neither do I anymore
West Coast got pumped by Gold Coast....
It's been a very weird year.
Even discounting the deplorable first quarter, we should have won that in a canter but for terrible kicking.
The kicking at goal, from relatively easy positions, in benign conditions, was below sub standard.
Our midfield was down, Pittonet aside (terrific debut), and our forward line was a mess, ditto the delivery I50.
We'll improve markedly from that effort.
Of bigger concern was a lot of our guys looked to be holding back/waiting for someone else to do the heavy lifting.
Unacceptable at this level.
Would be getting McGovern's eyes checked - he missed a lot of marks by a wide margin, despite being in a great position to mark.
Bad news for Newman, obviously. But great that Willo can now come in...
Seems the obvious choice...which means Polson will come in
Lang was never an answer as a mid and I doubt I ever said as such....i can see why they picked him up (what 3 years ago now?) but he's had injuries and simply doesn't do enough now. Philp for him is a no brainer.
But, why hasn't had been given a crack in the guts?
The other two simply aren't getting their job done....still have high hopes for Setters, Newnes always just a soldier but didn't even do that last night.
That said, all of them were off the pace for a lot of it last night.
Who's our midfield coach? Big, big FAIL.
Stanton (Midfield and Transition) and Barker (Midfield and Stoppages), I would have sacked them today. Plenty of good coaches sitting around off work due to Covid19.
Newman out for 2020😥
Recover well son.
Losing is always disappointing, and for some, infuriating.
Losing as many suggest, through poor goal kicking, inept adaptation to what's in front of you, and mental unpreparedness, heightens emotions. No doubt. The sought after W is so close yet so far.
Many have provided sound analysis of the problems and suggested plausible solutions. In the end we were caught short. Imo our shortcomings fell in areas amenable to correction.
I empathise with Baggers demanding mass reform. I also believe we have what it takes to climb the proverbial. Albeit not consistently for 4q. 6 of our last 8q has shown just that. I expect most footy fans would agree with that to some extent.
Aside from minor adjustments across a few areas, I see one main glaring flaw, and it's not new. Get another quality inside mid or two. Not an athlete or fly weight with fancy footwork, but an inside bull with footy smarts and effective disposal.
This could be SOJ and Kemp in future. Right now though, neither were available. We're still trialling young men in different positions and playing seniors in positions they no longer own. Fix that, and master the 4q focus, and we're in the frame.
Go Blues
We're soft, mentally and physically, end of story
The next bloke we draft has to a hard as *+*! Ultra competive mid. Dusty Ziebell Viney Selwood Hodge Lewis or even Rowell. That kind of bloke. No more pretty, nice, players like Fisher O'Brien SPS Murphy Dow Setterfield. Blokes that will smack the bloke next to them as soon as they get looked sideways at.
Got a lot of hope for Stocker, at least he's shown some grit. Why isn't he playing?
Coz we gotta play Lang ::)
Who is the midfield coach? Please tell me it's not that useless crap truck Barker.
Like everybody else I'm bewildered by the rinse and repeat same old crap that was dished up - on every level - yesterday.
I just don't see a way out if this. We have, seriously, twenty players that have shown nothing on our list. We can't draft (consistently), we can't acquire players, we can't develop players, we lack football nous,
ability, skill, hardness, smarts, effort ....its a mobius loop of mediocrity going nowhere.
I'm utterly bereft how we're ever going to exit this situation. We've had a parallel before. Once hope and faith are lost, and let's face it, we're almost there, the club is finished. Like Fitzroy.
Yep. I am all for Cripps leaving now (ie I think he will go rather stay), he cant keep tolerating this rubbish. Failure is so ingrained in our club now I cant see how to fix it. Start all over again? How many times can we keep starting all over again ? 86 days between round 1 and 2 and we repeated the same rubbish against Melbourne no less. That alone makes my blood boil. I simply cant see how anyone can take positives out of games at this point, every member to a man/woman/cat/dog/bird should be at the front gate tomorrow morning baying for blood. The clubs predicament is is completely unacceptable and something drastic needs to happen NOW
Newman out for 2020😥
Recover well son.
Losing is always disappointing, and for some, infuriating.
Losing as many suggest, through poor goal kicking, inept adaptation to what's in front of you, and mental unpreparedness, heightens emotions. No doubt. The sought after W is so close yet so far.
Many have provided sound analysis of the problems and suggested plausible solutions. In the end we were caught short. Imo our shortcomings fell in areas amenable to correction.
I empathise with Baggers demanding mass reform. I also believe we have what it takes to climb the proverbial. Albeit not consistently for 4q. 6 of our last 8q has shown just that. I expect most footy fans would agree with that to some extent.
Aside from minor adjustments across a few areas, I see one main glaring flaw, and it's not new. Get another quality inside mid or two. Not an athlete or fly weight with fancy footwork, but an inside bull with footy smarts and effective disposal.
This could be SOJ and Kemp in future. Right now though, neither were available. We're still trialling young men in different positions and playing seniors in positions they no longer own. Fix that, and master the 4q focus, and we're in the frame.
Go Blues
Sorry Navy, heard all that before many many times before and nothing has happened and wont happen any time soon. We are a laughing stock make no mistake about it and this upsets me. Something radical and drastic is required because nothing traditional has worked thus far. All I here is excuses. When I was a kid, my late old man used to say "why do you get so upset, its just a game". It is so much more than a game Dad.
And now for something completely different....
What would you prefer?
a) Getting out of the blocks, getting a jump on the opposition only to be overrun at the end and running out of puff. Ala Tigers a few years ago, 5 goals to 0 up, lost.
or
b) Giving the opposition a leg up early, regrouping and chasing them down late.
Before you answer, i know what it will be....
"c) Jump out of the blocks AND dominate late"
That aside...you'll probably choose a)....and hope not to get run down.
I've got a different approach and i'll explain why.
In the past, if we were lucky enough to get off to a good start, the opposition would make some changes and run over us.
THAT showed a lack of
- Belief/confidence - we drop our bundle
- Ability to adjust matchday tactics
Since Teague has taken over, we've struggled early, but almost always been in matches.
This shows that we have
- Belief/confidence - we don't give up.
- Ability to adjust matchday tactics
I'd much rather the latter option. In all honesty, its a lot easier to fix a 'slow start' from a coaches perspective than it is to fix a lack of belief/confidence and matchday nous which we have suffered from previously.
Hang in there lads. We are simply a couple of early goals away from being able to dominate a game.
Newman out for 2020😥
Recover well son.
Losing is always disappointing, and for some, infuriating.
Losing as many suggest, through poor goal kicking, inept adaptation to what's in front of you, and mental unpreparedness, heightens emotions. No doubt. The sought after W is so close yet so far.
Many have provided sound analysis of the problems and suggested plausible solutions. In the end we were caught short. Imo our shortcomings fell in areas amenable to correction.
I empathise with Baggers demanding mass reform. I also believe we have what it takes to climb the proverbial. Albeit not consistently for 4q. 6 of our last 8q has shown just that. I expect most footy fans would agree with that to some extent.
Aside from minor adjustments across a few areas, I see one main glaring flaw, and it's not new. Get another quality inside mid or two. Not an athlete or fly weight with fancy footwork, but an inside bull with footy smarts and effective disposal.
This could be SOJ and Kemp in future. Right now though, neither were available. We're still trialling young men in different positions and playing seniors in positions they no longer own. Fix that, and master the 4q focus, and we're in the frame.
Go Blues
Greetings LN, and happy New Year... 😁 😉
Many good points though I think you've confused me with someone else re 'mass reform'. Nuh, we're fundamentally on the right track and the 'comebacks' in our past two games were full of merit and fight and indicate we're, in the words of Renee Geyer, heading in the right direction.
However...
As I mentioned earlier our issues are fundamentally above the shoulders. Plus being 2 HARD mids short and some coaching intelligence for the midfield. Our midfield started like it was at training... bruise free/lacking mongrel, trying to finesse/easy way out and no initiative/boldness to respond to the Dees smart coaching in nullifying the Cripps influence. This is where one of our Directors, C Judd, should be exerting his expertise and experience... in terms of attitude and strategy, on the group and the midfield coaching staff (FFS, would someone please wrench Barker off the security of the CFC tit and bring in a midfield coach with smarts and a bit of shyte on his liver). And Stanton... really?
It was embarrassing how soft we started. How the hell does Murphy play as an inside mid and have 0 tackles... WTF? Even if we'd won, there'd be forceful questions being asked about our soft attitude and lack of smarts at game commencement.
I understand that we probably went for Lang when SOJ went down due to his speed... but fair-fkn-dinkum, the bloke fills his durps when he's confronted with physicality - we can't carry blokes like this (fair finisher but there's a reason the Pussycats were glad to see the @rs end of him) when you've got a bloke like Kennedy warming the pine who has a forward presence AND a physical presence. Blokes like Lang only add to 'softness' above the shoulders.
Stanton (Midfield and Transition) and Barker (Midfield and Stoppages), I would have sacked them today. Plenty of good coaches sitting around off work due to Covid19.
Stanton wasnt renowned for his inside work and Barker wasnt a mid or ruckman and how he has survived all these years at the club remains a mystery.I'm sure he is a nice bloke but fair dinkum how many coaching roles can you have in an unsuccessful era and not
be culled along with all the other coaching nuffies we have had.
Not sure where to put this so maybe mods can help out. There was a scratch match that was played by the players who did not play in the seniors. Does anyone know how that went down, best players, injuries?
Greetings LN, and happy New Year... 😁 😉
Many good points though I think you've confused me with someone else re 'mass reform'. Nuh, we're fundamentally on the right track and the 'comebacks' in our past two games were full of merit and fight and indicate we're, in the words of Renee Geyer, heading in the right direction.
However...
As I mentioned earlier our issues are fundamentally above the shoulders. Plus being 2 HARD mids short and some coaching intelligence for the midfield. Our midfield started like it was at training... bruise free/lacking mongrel, trying to finesse/easy way out and no initiative/boldness to respond to the Dees smart coaching in nullifying the Cripps influence. This is where one of our Directors, C Judd, should be exerting his expertise and experience... in terms of attitude and strategy, on the group and the midfield coaching staff (FFS, would someone please wrench Barker off the security of the CFC tit and bring in a midfield coach with smarts and a bit of shyte on his liver). And Stanton... really?
It was embarrassing how soft we started. How the hell does Murphy play as an inside mid and have 0 tackles... WTF? Even if we'd won, there'd be forceful questions being asked about our soft attitude and lack of smarts at game commencement.
I understand that we probably went for Lang when SOJ went down due to his speed... but fair-fkn-dinkum, the bloke fills his durps when he's confronted with physicality - we can't carry blokes like this (fair finisher but there's a reason the Pussycats were glad to see the @rs end of him) when you've got a bloke like Kennedy warming the pine who has a forward presence AND a physical presence. Blokes like Lang only add to 'softness' above the shoulders.
Greetings to you too Baggers and Mrs Baggers 👋
Long time between drinks for me. Daughter's wedding in our garden, 6wk European holiday to visit another daughter, were planned June- September. So I'd been keeping busy. Then COVID....
Must admit I took time to adjust to the new layout too (Must be a Carlton thing).
My reference to Baggers was not meant specific to you. Pardon my sloppy choice of words😣. Rather to those Bluebaggers on CSC seeking mass changes.
It was great though to see my tardiness resulting in you bobbing up to say hi 😉
I'm with those Bluebaggers like yourself, Kruddler and others who think we're on the right track. Although needing the hard inside mid/s to complete the puzzle.
Who knows maybe Gibbons, SOJ, Martin, Stocker or others help fill the gap somewhat in the short-term.
Kruddler made great points about the strong repeated comeback drive v the lay down and die attitude. The latter haunted me i know that 😫. Blues v Freo at MCG springs to mind 👻 Not sure if it was MM, Bolts, or Caretaker but it was beyond disgraceful.
Anyways hope you're healthy and happy
Not sure where to put this so maybe mods can help out. There was a scratch match that was played by the players who did not play in the seniors. Does anyone know how that went down, best players, injuries?
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/705406/reserves-wrap-practice-match-v-melbourne
Thanks PP. :)
Thanks PP. :)
No worries.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/705406/reserves-wrap-practice-match-v-melbourne
Thanks for that piece PP. The most interesting thing I took from the summary was that "the game was umpired by Carlton Head of Development Luke Power". F$#% me, people are asking why Stanton and Barker as our midfield coaches the bigger question should be, why not Power?? As I recall he was a reasonably good midfielder.
Question for me is why some of these kids aren't given a chance now? May as bl00dy well
Thanks for that piece PP. The most interesting thing I took from the summary was that "the game was umpired by Carlton Head of Development Luke Power". F$#% me, people are asking why Stanton and Barker as our midfield coaches the bigger question should be, why not Power?? As I recall he was a reasonably good midfielder.
No worries. IMO, I'd be wary of using playing history / quality as an indicator of coaching ability. It's an easy and tempting trap to fall into : great player = great coach. Sheedy, Malthouse, Pagan, not great players by any means. Voss was an absolute gun. I'm not saying scrappers make the best coaches, just that good coaches and good players do not necessarily share or need the same qualities.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/705406/reserves-wrap-practice-match-v-melbourne
Thank you, Pauly. 👍
CARLTON 0.0 2.5 4.6 7.11 (53)
MELBOURNE 5.2 7.4 8.5 8.6 (54)
GOALS
Carlton: Cuningham, Lang, Casboult, McGovern, Gibbons, Betts, Cripps No multiple goal kickers!
Melbourne: Hunt 3, Neal-Bullen 2, Petracca 2, Fritsch
BEST
Carlton: Murphy, Docherty, Weitering, Petrevski-Seton, McGovern, Curnow
Melbourne: Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Salem, Langdon, Viney
INJURIES
Carlton: Newman (knee) A bad blow for us. Hopefully Williamson did OK in the scratch match.
Melbourne: Nil
Free kicks: 13 to us, 18 to them.
Tackles 41 to 50!
Hit outs: 26 to 34
I know I have been blowing my horn about getting a top ruckman now for years, but it would be nice if our match committee and recruiters could understand that.
Docherty and Murphy 24 possessions, Cripps and Curnow 21,
The statistics suggest that not enough was done by too many, even with a great 2nd half.
A question I have: did somebody play close and hard on Oliver? He doesn't like it. he isn't easy to tag, when his ruckman is dominating, but he can be smashed and he does retaliate. So, did we tag him?
Did we tag anyone?
Oliver was on Cripps....so Paddy had the job of manning him but we know it doesn't work that way as the skipper doesn't man other players and why smart clubs only man Cripps at the stoppages and then instruct their player to run off him. Works fine for us if they put a non skilled tagger only on Cripps but if its a quality player then you have them running loose all day.
Melbourne kicked one goal in over two and a half quarters. Once we were able to put pressure on their mid-field and defence, they really had very little way of scoring. Once again if we had kicked 5:3 in the last quarter instead of 3:5, we would be having a completely different conversation. I have said this before and I will say it again, winners win because they win, losers lose because they lose. I have believed for a long time that the problem at Carlton isn't the players, the coaches or the administration, and while these things are the creators of this, I believe it is the lack of a winning culture that is holding us back. This is what Elliot and his cronies really destroyed at Carlton.
I once read a story about a professional golfer who potential was very good and the expectations was that he would win a number of Majors, however he found he got more joy out of rolling a fifty meter putt to a couple of inches or just missing, than actually putting the ball into the hole. He got more out of the groans of the crowds than the cheers. He went on to have a successful career playing trick shots at tournaments rather than playing to win.
The question I ask is is the mentality at Carlton such that the players would rather have a heroic failure than commit to the contest from the start and be burdened by the pressure of victory and winning? Are the players happy to be five goals down at quarter time and virtually out of the match, so they can release themselves from the burden of the expectations of actually winning. It is easy to console yourself with the what if we started five minutes earlier, and rejoice in the last minute Murphy goal, than actually come to the contest ready to play and accept the notion that you are not really good enough if you lose.
There was not one side I saw on the weekend that if Carlton committed itself to the contest from the first bounce, that Carlton would not be capable of beating, but if you are not going to have a go in the first quarter you are not going to win, and as long as we are able to hide behind the facade of heroic failures, everything will be ok.
.................................................................................................
The question I ask is is the mentality at Carlton such that the players would rather have a heroic failure than commit to the contest from the start and be burdened by the pressure of victory and winning? Are the players happy to be five goals down at quarter time and virtually out of the match, so they can release themselves from the burden of the expectations of actually winning. It is easy to console yourself with the what if we started five minutes earlier, and rejoice in the last minute Murphy goal, than actually come to the contest ready to play and accept the notion that you are not really good enough if you lose.
There was not one side I saw on the weekend that if Carlton committed itself to the contest from the first bounce, that Carlton would not be capable of beating, but if you are not going to have a go in the first quarter you are not going to win, and as long as we are able to hide behind the facade of heroic failures, everything will be ok.
Interesting post BM. I'm not sure that you could say the players are happy in the true sense of that word. I think humans are creatures of habit, and I think once the close finishes and honourable losses become ingrained, they become habits, and as we know, habits, once established, are hard to break.
What is needed, much like a true religious conversion, is a transformative experience. An experience whereby the change from a bad habit to a good one, becomes a part of who you are, a part of your inner being. In that way, the new good habit becomes like breathing - it's not an option, it's just you. Whilst I'm no fan of oversimplification, you could look at something like the Hawks "line in the sand" game as perhaps a transformative experience, although I'm guessing there was more to it than that.
No amount of sprays, bakes, roasts or anything similar will ever come close to the inner motivation that gets people to a particular level. If it's not part of you, any other solution is simply a stop gap measure in my view.
Loved the previous two posts from Pauly and Blue Moon. Good to see strong conversation about our players in terms of above the shoulders.
If you look over recent years there is an ingrained habit of performing poorly in one qtr... which has cost us so many games (and BB his career). For years the Tiggers had something similar. So it can be turned around... question is when and how long can we wait. Every game where we 'drop a qtr' compounds the problem.
You can have all the plans in the world, but you can't execute the plan on the players' behalf. You can be quite certain the coaching group understood the ruck disparity and understood what Gawn can do, and I have no doubt that they planned for a few things, including rucking to his tap outs. But if the players don't get it, refuse to do it, or simply can't do it, there's little a coach can do IMO.
Gawn was no longer on top after the first quarter. Whatever was whispered in Pittonet's ear at quarter time worked and they were even at worst, and Pittonet on top for the rest of the match. The coaching wasnt the issue last night, not the game day coaching at least.
Loved the previous two posts from Pauly and Blue Moon. Good to see strong conversation about our players in terms of above the shoulders.
If you look over recent years there is an ingrained habit of performing poorly in one qtr... which has cost us so many games (and BB his career). For years the Tiggers had something similar. So it can be turned around... question is when and how long can we wait. Every game where we 'drop a qtr' compounds the problem.
Yes, everything about this game is about "above the shoulders". We show enough at other parts of games to show we can play. It's about attitude.
It is interesting to talk with supporters from other clubs, who are all focusing on what we DID produce (last 2 and a half quarters) rather than what we didn't produce in the first quarter and a half. I know that they don't have to endure the 'almost there' every week, but plenty can see lots of silver lining in amongst the dark clouds. It was also pointed out that Petracca is now just starting to impose himself on games and he was No2 in the 2014 draft, is now 24. Our class of 2015, Weitering (22 yo 77 games) , C Curnow (23 58) , ( Harry (22, 35) Cunningham (23, 26) and Silvagni (22 61) are all 12 months behind him. Consistent game time is required, but at times it comes at a price. We need to see some signs.
Gawn was no longer on top after the first quarter. Whatever was whispered in Pittonet's ear at quarter time worked and they were even at worst, and Pittonet on top for the rest of the match. The coaching wasnt the issue last night, not the game day coaching at least.
Oliver had Cripps covered and the coaching panel dont know what to do when Cripps is manned up tight and its always the move to Full Forward which never works because Cripps isnt in the middle so the ball never gets to him and if it does he cant kick straight anyway...same old same old every game.
The coaching panel need to up their game IMO....
Oliver had Cripps covered and the coaching panel dont know what to do when Cripps is manned up tight and its always the move to Full Forward which never works because Cripps isnt in the middle so the ball never gets to him and if it does he cant kick straight anyway...same old same old every game.
The coaching panel need to up their game IMO....
Don't think landing on his head at one stage did Cripps much good.
Interesting points made by Pauly and Blue Moon. I agree that "above the shoulders" plays a very important part in a team's culture.
However, surely that is affected directly by the ability - or lack of -of the players. How many times in recent years have we seen forward thrusts fail because of the inability of players to kick properly, or failing to kick to the forwards advantage or to
make the right choice, only to have the ball turned over and our backline hammered once again.
During the Covid break I watched all of the 1995 Carlton games, and the contrast with today's team stood out like the proverbial. No wonder our players stood tall. They had a belief in themselves to win because they had the mental attitude brought about by their skills.
The players were able to control a game because they could retain possession of the ball and use it to best advantage.
I suppose it's the chicken or the egg question, but I believe without skills so many opportunities are squandered, games are lost with monotonous regularity, and it's not possible to develop that essential positive mental attitude.
Interesting points made by Pauly and Blue Moon. I agree that "above the shoulders" plays a very important part in a team's culture.
However, surely that is affected directly by the ability - or lack of -of the players. How many times in recent years have we seen forward thrusts fail because of the inability of players to kick properly, or failing to kick to the forwards advantage or to
make the right choice, only to have the ball turned over and our backline hammered once again.
During the Covid break I watched all of the 1995 Carlton games, and the contrast with today's team stood out like the proverbial. No wonder our players stood tall. They had a belief in themselves to win because they had the mental attitude brought about by their skills.
The players were able to control a game because they could retain possession of the ball and use it to best advantage.
I suppose it's the chicken or the egg question, but I believe without skills so many opportunities are squandered, games are lost with monotonous regularity, and it's not possible to develop that essential positive mental attitude.
It might not help much, but I've heard a few players say that when they do match simulation and skills work at training, they never miss a target. Clearly that's not much good when you're playing for 4 points, but if it's true (I'm sure it is), then the skills are there, but clearly there's a subtle shift in mindset that occurs on match day, because when it comes to the game, things don't go smoothly.
It's a notoriously tricky thing this mindset / transformative experience business. If you get it right, a whole world of possibility and potential open up before you. If you get it wrong, say for example like the Crows recent off season camp (undoubtedly an attempt to transform the players). it will be an unmitigated disaster.
Interesting points made by Pauly and Blue Moon. I agree that "above the shoulders" plays a very important part in a team's culture.
However, surely that is affected directly by the ability - or lack of -of the players. How many times in recent years have we seen forward thrusts fail because of the inability of players to kick properly, or failing to kick to the forwards advantage or to
make the right choice, only to have the ball turned over and our backline hammered once again.
During the Covid break I watched all of the 1995 Carlton games, and the contrast with today's team stood out like the proverbial. No wonder our players stood tall. They had a belief in themselves to win because they had the mental attitude brought about by their skills.
The players were able to control a game because they could retain possession of the ball and use it to best advantage.
I suppose it's the chicken or the egg question, but I believe without skills so many opportunities are squandered, games are lost with monotonous regularity, and it's not possible to develop that essential positive mental attitude.
One leads to the other. I find skills are often due to player focus too. A properly switched on side hits alot more targets. You could say we often like at skills, like every other sides, when it comes to drafting, unless there's something else above that that attracts. They seem to become bad kicks when they get to Carlton.
Interesting points made by Pauly and Blue Moon. I agree that "above the shoulders" plays a very important part in a team's culture.
However, surely that is affected directly by the ability - or lack of -of the players. How many times in recent years have we seen forward thrusts fail because of the inability of players to kick properly, or failing to kick to the forwards advantage or to
make the right choice, only to have the ball turned over and our backline hammered once again.
During the Covid break I watched all of the 1995 Carlton games, and the contrast with today's team stood out like the proverbial. No wonder our players stood tall. They had a belief in themselves to win because they had the mental attitude brought about by their skills.
The players were able to control a game because they could retain possession of the ball and use it to best advantage.
I suppose it's the chicken or the egg question, but I believe without skills so many opportunities are squandered, games are lost with monotonous regularity, and it's not possible to develop that essential positive mental attitude.
Fair points, Macca, and true to say that it may well be a chicken or egg situation. But I reckon when you're confident (attitude) and almost expect to win every week (attitude) that your skills fall into line, and get better, which also, then, feeds confidence... but it all starts with your mental attitude.
How many blokes have killed it on the track and in the twos but come game day on the big stage, are just not up to it. Conversely, how many blokes have you known to play our game with limited ability but phenomenal attitude/heart and go on to play 200+ quality games?
We've got the skills. We've got the talent (bar another quality mid or three), but lose ticker/concentration for a qtr a game. And now it's become an ingrained habit to break and you can only do that with attitude, an attitude of mongrel persistence and desperation and focus and ruthlessness... an attitude of 'only winning will satisfy us'... no matter the cost. No lapses.
It might not help much, but I've heard a few players say that when they do match simulation and skills work at training, they never miss a target. Clearly that's not much good when you're playing for 4 points, but if it's true (I'm sure it is), then the skills are there, but clearly there's a subtle shift in mindset that occurs on match day, because when it comes to the game, things don't go smoothly.
I think some of us (those that don't see it regularly) would be quite surprised at the actual skills these players show at training.
I've no doubt the skills are there
It's probably not so much a different mindset as a different level of pressure that players experience under match conditions.
Under pressure the skills fall apart, disposals are rushed and erratic.
When we are able to apply our own level of high pressure suddenly those skills wont look so bad....but that will require players going hard and supporting one another for 4 quarters...not just two and a half.
I think some of us (those that don't see it regularly) would be quite surprised at the actual skills these players show at training.
I've no doubt the skills are there
It's probably not so much a different mindset as a different level of pressure that players experience under match conditions.
Under pressure the skills fall apart, disposals are rushed and erratic.
When we are able to apply our own level of high pressure suddenly those skills wont look so bad....but that will require players going hard and supporting one another for 4 quarters...not just two and a half.
Lods to me you are describing the difference between confident, battle-hardened professionals and probably well trained players but whose past lack of positive reinforcements has left them tentative, lacking in confidence and without poise.
Lods to me you are describing the difference between confident, battle-hardened professionals and probably well trained players but whose past lack of positive reinforcements has left them tentative, lacking in confidence and without poise.
That comes with long periods of playing together and gaining an understanding of our team-mates strengths and weaknesses
I think one of the major problems of the rebuild process we've undertaken is that with the constant list changes we haven't had a settled side for the last five or so years.
Again this year our team is not yet settled with the introduction of new players and injuries.
Until we get a core group playing together consistently I don't have high expectations.
What I do want to see towards the end of the season is a more settled side.
That comes with long periods of playing together and gaining an understanding of our team-mates strengths and weaknesses
I think one of the major problems of the rebuild process we've undertaken is that with the constant list changes we haven't had a settled side for the last five or so years.
Again this year our team is not yet settled with the introduction of new players and injuries.
Until we get a core group playing together consistently I don't have high expectations.
What I do want to see towards the end of the season is a more settled side.
Don't forget lockdowns, an interrupted season etc.
Of course it's above the shoulders, it doesnt mean it should be accepted, nor does it give the players and the coaches an out. Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance, they were 31 pts down at qtr time v Richmond in rnd 1, they were 32 pts down at qtr time v Melb in rnd 2. They had 86 days to prepare and prevent want occured in round one and failed, coaches and players failed to prepare prepare properly. In the presser, the coach said he addressed the midfielders at qtr time and they responded, great. But WTF? Why wait? If it was me, given the track record of poor starts occurring over and over again, I would have been ready and would have walked down to the boundary line after the 3 unanswered goal and spoken to midfielders then. It's a poor performance from the entire coaching box IMO. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity is it not?
Think we are looking for excuses when the simple truth is we dont have enough players with the mindset , physicality or talent base to win games. Looking good on the track is a bit like saying the troops look good on parade but in battle cant perform.
Too many nice kids, too easy to hide behind the rebuild banner and too much reliance on too few class players who want to fight to win and are prepared to lay the body on the line each week.
We are excited over a Hawthorn reserves player(Pittonet) because he has a go, probably tells you something about most of the list, so starved of players with fight we drool over any sight of competitiveness...sad times indeed.
That comes with long periods of playing together and gaining an understanding of our team-mates strengths and weaknesses
I think one of the major problems of the rebuild process we've undertaken is that with the constant list changes we haven't had a settled side for the last five or so years.
Again this year our team is not yet settled with the introduction of new players and injuries.
Until we get a core group playing together consistently I don't have high expectations.
What I do want to see towards the end of the season is a more settled side.
Every club goes through those changes and they appear far more settled IMO Lods. Sorry, doesn't cut it for mine at all.
Every club goes through those changes and they appear far more settled IMO Lods. Sorry, doesn't cut it for mine at all.
x2
I don't think any club has gutted its list to the same extent that we have over the last five years.
If you look back on my posts its a strategy I never agreed with from the start and we're still suffering the effect of what was a poor decision in the first place.
But it does explain why we are where we are.
The hope is that this year is a consolidation and we finally start to reap some benefits of a course of action we never should have embarked upon.
Those successful old teams of ours had retiring quality players replaced by younger quality players, partly I'm sure due to $$$ and because players like successful clubs - the core group between the two had belief from winning and success, and that belief rubs off onto the incoming younger mob.
It's hard for our leaders to pass on belief that I'm not sure they have themselves. And it's hard to get good players because no one wants to come to bottom clubs, which of course has been said many times before. The cycle is hard to break. I think Lods' point about the significant list changes creating lack of cohesion is right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tvBxNgAh9A
Rozee was a flight risk, Walsh won't leave Victoria. Still think we got that pick right IMO
Just rewatching the second half, except for that atrocious miss running into goal, McGovern’s third quarter was a major reason why we got back into the game. He actually got on his bike and got mobile. I have faith.
Rozee was a flight risk, Walsh won't leave Victoria. Still think we got that pick right IMO
I just have this nasty nagging feeling that the longer players are with us the more self belief they lose. There is something deeply and fundamentally wrong at the club, I am growing more convinced of it. Not confident either that the latest management regime will fix it.
Just rewatching the second half, except for that atrocious miss running into goal, McGovern’s third quarter was a major reason why we got back into the game. He actually got on his bike and got mobile. I have faith.
Coach sang his praises in the presser
Intersting stat on fox footy, Carlton was the 4 oldest team at the weekend.
Coach sang his praises in the presser
The coach is very generous, 10 disposals and 1 tackle vs Melbourne@800k a season isnt exactly praise worthy Imo.
The coach is very generous, 10 disposals and 1 tackle vs Melbourne@800k a season isnt exactly praise worthy Imo.
No argument from me on the score EB. His output, preparation and apparent level of effort has certainly justified his alleged pay packet.
It's hard to understand how for the very long term our club's coaching and recruiting staff seem so oblivious to our lack of heavy bodied leg speed.
They complain about our slow starts, like it's an attitude problem. But I'd say our primary problem is we can't keep up when the heat is on in the opening minutes, no matter how hard we try we just haven't got the leg speed and if we don't get first use of the ball we're out of the contest.
Cripps, Curnow x 2, Setterfield, Gibbons, SPS, SoJ, etc., etc., might be able to use strength and aerobic capacity late in a quarter, but it will always be coming back from a deficit. We need to find ourselves a high speed heavy bodied tackler in short term.
Last weekend, until the legs slowed, Cripps and Setterfield were always two steps behind similar sized blokes like Petracca, Oliver and Tomlinson.
In the past we'd have SpecialK squaring the ledger and preventing opposition taking the ball away, but we haven't now and might not ever have him again. I have hope for De Koning.
This is not a new problem, it's been our problem since back in the days of Kouta.
@LPJosh Dunkley would certainly be worth a look.
@cookie2
I think we missed a huge trick in not having a bigger crack at Hugh Greenwood.
I know EB1 thinks the Crouch's are potential targets but that's at least 2 or 3 seasons off, and costly, there is a lot of water to go under the bridge before then.
We miss Robbo so badly, Malthouse is the gift that just keeps on giving, that Filth prick found away to offload our rarest resource.
Every club goes through those changes and they appear far more settled IMO Lods. Sorry, doesn't cut it for mine at all.
Totally agree. Excuse? Probably... Reason? Nuh.
Sorry Principal LODS, you're usually on the money, but when you factor in that we can play dominant qtrs against bona fide opposition you can see cohesion and talent. We have the talent, but there's something missing in the brains/initiative/passion area.
Between the lugholes and a big bodied mid or two shy. And for mine these poor starts may have much to do with whoever addresses the mids before games (Barker? Stanton? - like having nothing, twice). Very indicative to see Teague go straight to the midfield at qtr time v the Dees... and damning for Laurel and Hardy (Barker and Stanton). Forget that we might have too many shy/nice/introverted players... could well be we've got too many shy/nice/introverted assistant coaches... need some more passion and fire in the coaching ranks.
Of course it's above the shoulders, it doesnt mean it should be accepted, nor does it give the players and the coaches an out. Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance, they were 31 pts down at qtr time v Richmond in rnd 1, they were 32 pts down at qtr time v Melb in rnd 2. They had 86 days to prepare and prevent want occured in round one and failed, coaches and players failed to prepare prepare properly. In the presser, the coach said he addressed the midfielders at qtr time and they responded, great. But WTF? Why wait? If it was me, given the track record of poor starts occurring over and over again, I would have been ready and would have walked down to the boundary line after the 3 unanswered goal and spoken to midfielders then. It's a poor performance from the entire coaching box IMO. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity is it not?
Absolutely. Being above the shoulders is no excuse or way out... it should be identified and pounced on straight away.
I fear we haven't done that... choosing to perhaps go gently, which works somewhat with some. I think it often works better to light a metaphoric fire under the clacker of some blokes to get them going. Horses for courses with the individuals you're dealing with but I'm concerned there's been to much soft-peddling for too long and Teague doesn't have the Lieutenants he needs. Amos is a ripper, but gee it falls away rapidly after him.
No club has won more qtrs than us outside of Port (some the equal), yet we are 0-2. Frustrating!
Bring back 20 min qtrs I say...lol.
We have the same problems under Teague that we did under Bolton. BB was apparently the source of these problems, but now that the new guy is officially endorsed and approved by the CSC faithful, the source has magically shifted elsewhere, and Teague rides in on his white horse at 1/4 time to save the day ?
Turn it up.
No club has won more qtrs than us outside of Port (some the equal), yet we are 0-2. Frustrating!
We have the same problems under Teague that we did under Bolton. BB was apparently the source of these problems, but now that the new guy is officially endorsed and approved by the CSC faithful, the source has magically shifted elsewhere, and Teague rides in on his white horse at 1/4 time to save the day ?
Turn it up.
We waved the white flag often completely under Bolton. We at least fight back now. Issues Teague will have over the next season or two is to eradicate the crappy attitude/culture. Never an overnight thing.
@baggers and GIC.....
I 'm not sure that what you're saying and what I'm saying are necessarily mutually exclusive.
My argument is that we are still to gel as a unit in comparison with other sides due to the turnover of personnel.
Again.... 'No other club has had the changes of personnel ours has had in the last five years'
It's a strategy few clubs have ever attempted.
I suspect it's a model few clubs will ever repeat.
Now part of that understanding that needs to develop is the ability to combine together to apply pressure for longer periods of time.
Passion for club and teammates is another aspect that develops over time.
For a Jack Silvagni that's something he was born with...if you come through another club or two (the passage of a good number of our players) it takes a little longer.
We've had slow starts, but at least there's a belief there that even 6 or 7 goals down they're still not out of the game.
I posted in another thread that the resumption would cause some problems for some clubs. The successful ones were always going to be the ones who could get their 'combination' back together the quickest.
We waved the white flag often completely under Bolton. We at least fight back now. Issues Teague will have over the next season or two is to eradicate the crappy attitude/culture. Never an overnight thing.
12 months is not overnight, unless you operate in geological time - but of course, as long as we under perform, it will always be down to the slow process of eradicating Bolton's bad culture - what a wonderful thing it must be to have a scapegoat on retainer.
Hey Mr 4 from 43, check it out : after 13 games, both Bolton and Teague sit at 6/13.
If Teague can't sort the starts out fasts I'm afraid he's going to become another Bolton and we'll be looking at another reset. Liddell and Lloyd won't want their mate on the sidelines watching you long if go 5 from 17.
Work rate, work rate, work rate.
Not leg speed, but work rate (aka intensity).
Round 1 tackles from our leaders:
Simmo 0
Murph 0
Crippa 2
Doc 1
Weiters 3
Ed C 3
Newnes 1
Overall, 9 players with ZERO tackles, 14 with one or less.
Round 2 tackles from our leaders:
Simmo 1
Murph 0
Crippa 2
Doc 2
Weiters 0
Ed C 2
Newnes 1
Overall, 5 players with ZERO tackles (Murphy both weeks), 8 with one or less.
41 tackles for the team in Rd. 2, 23 in Round 1. - average 32. Lowest in the league!
We averaged 63 tackles a game in 2019.
St Kilda are averaging 64 tackles a game in 2020. Double.
Work rate, work rate, work rate.
If Teague can't sort the starts out fasts I'm afraid he's going to become another Bolton and we'll be looking at another reset. Liddell and Lloyd won't want their mate on the sidelines watching you long if go 5 from 17.
Teague is no doubt under intense pressure and I have no doubt that he will be gone if we don't see some better results in what's left of this season. I sure get the feeling that he is a left over from a previous era unfortunately and not really in favour with the current regime.
Teague is no doubt under intense pressure and I have no doubt that he will be gone if we don't see some better results in what's left of this season. I sure get the feeling that he is a left over from a previous era unfortunately and not really in favour with the current regime.
Scary with Ross Lyon floating around.
Teague is no doubt under intense pressure and I have no doubt that he will be gone if we don't see some better results in what's left of this season. I sure get the feeling that he is a left over from a previous era unfortunately and not really in favour with the current regime.
If we get rid of Teague after one interrupted season, we will be forever more a non entity.
That's not how you change culture. That's going to ruin our club.
Scary with Ross Lyon floating around.
Yep, Lurking and filling in time in the media, Lyon cant win premierships but he can get teams into finals.
Liddle and crew need finals to justify culling Bolton and if we lose vs Geelong I think thats probably it for 2020 and heads will drop.
Its set up for Lyon IMO...not a case of if but when......
If we get rid of Teague after one interrupted season, we will be forever more a non entity.
That's not how you change culture. That's going to ruin our club.
I can't see that happening, no matter how bad the season is. Even by Carlton standards, that would be a new low.
I think there's a real chance we could be 0-4 after Geelong and Essendon (no easy beats IMO), but I think we will win more in the latter stages of the season, as long as we can stay relatively injury free.
If we get rid of Teague after one interrupted season, we will be forever more a non entity.
That's not how you change culture. That's going to ruin our club.
Peak stupid if we do that, let alone even consider it. 100% concur with that comment. After 11 games?
I can't see that happening, no matter how bad the season is. Even by Carlton standards, that would be a new low.
I think there's a real chance we could be 0-4 after Geelong and Essendon (no easy beats IMO), but I think we will win more in the latter stages of the season, as long as we can stay relatively injury free.
I cant see it happening either, but the conspiracy theorists have our upper echelons biding their time to get Lyon in.
I cant see it happening either, but the conspiracy theorists have our upper echelons biding their time to get Lyon in.
Lyon's record at 2 no hoper clubs is pretty good, but the coaching merry go round has to stop.
My concern is the potential lack of wins will see the media do their sh1t all over again, and I'm not sure that our club is strong enough to resist and push back. Their record in this space up to now has been appalling.
The club is weak as piss.
Teague was pretty much put in there as a caretaker and would have been replaced but for his initial results, which were an inconvenient truth for the ruling cabal. I would bet that these results are now long forgotten and the current default position would be to move him on, quoting their reservations about training wheels perhaps being justified after all. Sure there will be a flurry in the media and with some supporters but a suitable narrative to deal with that will be created. I just cannot see Teaguey getting another year unless actual results make sacking him impossible. That does NOT mean I agree with sacking him btw.
The club is weak as piss.
Not only that, but I'm also wondering how much they're on the same page. In Ratten's era, there were some power brokers who saw him as a caretaker until we got a (yawn) "real" coach, and as such gave him little support - that's disunity. In the lead up to Bolton's sacking, both Judd and LoGiudice said Bolts wasn't going anywhere, and I think they were telling the truth. I don't think it was a cover up. Clearly others disagreed, and he was gone. Again, disunity.
I really hope those days are over, but from my vantage point, I can't tell one way or the other.
Lyon's record at 2 no hoper clubs is pretty good, but the coaching merry go round has to stop.
My concern is the potential lack of wins will see the media do their sh1t all over again, and I'm not sure that our club is strong enough to resist and push back. Their record in this space up to now has been appalling.
This is Teague's major issue and he knows it. The journey to a flag is a long one but at this stage just getting us challenging for finals would be good enough for the shorter term, and would maybe keep many of the wolves from the door of club management. The shorter term is definitely it's big priority imo and even if we got Lyon and he started to get a few ugly wins this would be good enough for its immediate needs, then worry about taking the next steps. It's a survival strategy rather than a longer term winning strategy at this stage.
Cornes the media whore has started operation "undermine Carlton" already AFAIC.
Peak stupid if we do that, let alone even consider it. 100% concur with that comment. After 11 games?
What if we are 11 - 0.
What if we are dead last with a percentage under 50
Gold Coast have just gone past us in an offseason.
@baggers and GIC.....
I 'm not sure that what you're saying and what I'm saying are necessarily mutually exclusive.
My argument is that we are still to gel as a unit in comparison with other sides due to the turnover of personnel.
Again.... 'No other club has had the changes of personnel ours has had in the last five years'
It's a strategy few clubs have ever attempted.
I suspect it's a model few clubs will ever repeat.
Now part of that understanding that needs to develop is the ability to combine together to apply pressure for longer periods of time.
Passion for club and teammates is another aspect that develops over time.
For a Jack Silvagni that's something he was born with...if you come through another club or two (the passage of a good number of our players) it takes a little longer.
We've had slow starts, but at least there's a belief there that even 6 or 7 goals down they're still not out of the game.
I posted in another thread that the resumption would cause some problems for some clubs. The successful ones were always going to be the ones who could get their 'combination' back together the quickest.
Successful ones like the Port, Cheats and Norf who are 2-0
If Teague can't sort the starts out fasts I'm afraid he's going to become another Bolton and we'll be looking at another reset. Liddell and Lloyd won't want their mate on the sidelines watching you long if go 5 from 17.
Well we are still losing more than we win, cant turn up to games until the second qtr, cant hit target and cant kick easy goals. Start the reset now.
Work rate, work rate, work rate.
Not leg speed, but work rate (aka intensity).
Round 1 tackles from our leaders:
Simmo 0
Murph 0
Crippa 2
Doc 1
Weiters 3
Ed C 3
Newnes 1
Overall, 9 players with ZERO tackles, 14 with one or less.
Round 2 tackles from our leaders:
Simmo 1
Murph 0
Crippa 2
Doc 2
Weiters 0
Ed C 2
Newnes 1
Overall, 5 players with ZERO tackles (Murphy both weeks), 8 with one or less.
41 tackles for the team in Rd. 2, 23 in Round 1. - average 32. Lowest in the league!
We averaged 63 tackles a game in 2019.
St Kilda are averaging 64 tackles a game in 2020. Double.
Work rate, work rate, work rate.
So tell em if they dont lay a minimum of 5 tackles and win 3 frees for HTB, they dont play next week
Scary with Ross Lyon floating around.
At least he will bring some kent to the place
If we get rid of Teague after one interrupted season, we will be forever more a non entity.
That's not how you change culture. That's going to ruin our club.
Hmmm. where have I heard that before?
Yep, Lurking and filling in time in the media, Lyon cant win premierships but he can get teams into finals.
Liddle and crew need finals to justify culling Bolton and if when we lose vs Geelong I think thats probably it for 2020 and heads will drop.
Its set up for Lyon IMO...not a case of if but when......
EFA
What if we are 11 - 0.
What if we are dead last with a percentage under 50
Gold Coast have just gone past us in an offseason.
We have a 20 year history which shows that changing coaches as often as your underwear doesn't work. It all starts with the board. If we are dead last with a % of 50, every board member has to go, not the coach. Systemic, entrenched failure going back decades is not the fault of one man, certainly not in an organisation with many moving parts like a football club. Don't forget the coach isn't even the top man in his own department.
Cornes the media whore has started operation "undermine Carlton" already AFAIC.
Coz he knows we will chase Wines
Successful ones like the Port, Cheats and Norf who are 2-0
I wasn't talking successful clubs in terms of recent history.
The early successful clubs in this bastardised 2020 season will be the ones that get their act together quickest.after the resumption.
Few if any seasons have had such a disruption after the season has commenced.
The uncertainty of the timing of the recommencement would also have impacted on the players.
Last weekend was virtually a new start to the year.
How individual players will have coped with the problems of isolation will vary dramatically.
Some will hit the ground without missing a beat and that will go for some teams as well.
Other will take a few weeks to hit their stride.
Finally got to see the Game.
Q1: So weak it is not funny. Melbourne just ran through us.
Pittonet got the first 3 taps, but we got 0 clearances. After that Gawn had a picnic.
Can't blame the forwards: it didn't get down there. We had only a couple of inside 50s and none of them with the advantage.
Fumbles from Walsh and McGovern were terrible.
Frees: Did we have one? We could have had more than a few. Murphy had about 5 microseconds to get rid of the ball.
Our disposal was poor, but we always under pressure. We found it difficult to get the ball.
Melbourne simply are not that much stronger than us, but we couldn't put the same sort of pressure on.
Q2: The thing I noticed most that Cripps was being held in every single ball-up and ruck duel. Every one.
We were much better, but for a very poor few minutes, where they got 2 easy goals.
Forwards weren't so bad. H was good: we just couldn't get the ball there often enough.
Martin looked like he could do things, but ...
SPS didn't have a good first half, but his aerial work has improved so much.
Murphy was OK, but always under pressure.
Weitering and Jones were strong, while Doc was excellent.
Q3: We really did play all over Melbourne in the 3rd Quarter.
Ed Curnow slaughtered Viney.
In the 2nd and 3rd quarters we had most of the clearances, even if they were the sort Melbourne had enjoyed earlier.
Pittonet really stood up, even though he was beaten. Good effort, lad!
McGovern got on his bike. Much improved, but he should have had a couple of goals.
The Cripps miss hurt.
Strength? We need to work on that. We were still pushed off the ball too easily.
Weitering and Jones were good again, as was Doc.
Could we buy a free kick? It didn't look that way.
Q4: My God, we should have won that game!
Coz he knows we will chase Wines
Wines is too good a player and has done too much to be stuck over in Adelaide not playing finals. he should be over here, where we get 70 - 80 k crowds.
I wasn't talking successful clubs in terms of recent history.
The early successful clubs in this bastardised 2020 season will be the ones that get their act together quickest.after the resumption.
Few if any seasons have had such a disruption after the season has commenced.
The uncertainty of the timing of the recommencement would also have impacted on the players.
Last weekend was virtually a new start to the year.
How individual players will have coped with the problems of isolation will vary dramatically.
Some will hit the ground without missing a beat and that will go for some teams as well.
Other will take a few weeks to hit their stride.
Sorry Lods, you see it as a new start to the season, I see it as the repeat fark up 86 days after the previous one that it is. I simply cant see it any other way and I am livid. I am sick of the excuses, the blase attitude towards it (not yours, the clubs)
Sorry Lods, you see it as a new start to the season, I see it as the repeat fark up 86 days after the previous one that it is. I simply cant see it any other way and I am livid.
Have to agree. Sleeping on the job for the first quarter and falling too far behind to really have any chance against a team no better than us really. Repeating pattern and last game was a very BAD example, so how far have we come?? The next game will be absolutely critical as, if we do the same thing, we will be blown away for the rest of the year with a confidence shattering annihilation.
Have to agree. Sleeping on the job for the first quarter and falling too far behind to really have any chance against a team no better than us really. Repeating pattern and last game was a very BAD example, so how far have we come?? The next game will be absolutely critical as, if we do the same thing, we will be blown away for the rest of the year with a confidence shattering annihilation.
How far have we come? In my eyes not very. Same rubbish but different. It was like Teague was going to sprinkle his magic dust on the players and all would be solved. As has been pointed out, his record vs his predecessors is scarily similar, skills havent improved, young players havent really developed, they continue to play rejects from other clubs. Im effin sick of it. I dont see anything different being tried, just the same stuff over and over again hoping for a different result. Its madness.
You guys may very well turn out to be right.
The next 3 or 4 weeks will tell the story.
I just tried to imagine the effect the stutter start would have had....and it would be different for everyone.
One of the most cliché comments we tend to hear is "They're all professional footballers. They should tough it out."
But there's a world of difference between a mature 30 year old and an 18 year old recruit.
The mental durability varies greatly from player to player.
As we've also seen in recent times mental health issues can affect footballers in much the same way as they do the general population.
So this season is different from any other.
A month or two back and the players would have had little idea whether or not the season would even recommence.
They would have been training in isolation and the input and contact from the club would have been seriously limited compared to normal.
So in effect they've had 6-8 weeks of uncertainty compared to a normal pre-season of structured progressive training. I reckon that's got to impact, and clubs and players will handle that differently.... and because of that I reckon it will take a few weeks to determine where we really sit.
Gold Coast beat West Coast. If that's not proof that the stutter is affecting teams, I dont know what is. Maybe Hawthorn losing by 10 goals?
GITC, we havent agreed on much over the years but I'm 110% standing next to you over the last two posts.
Totally over this club doing the same old, go nowhere stuff. Over it. Why won't they do something about it!?! Is it that F******g hard? Why have we been left in the dust of historically rubbish clubs?
If we're say, 8 and zip, Teague is gone. G-O-N-E. And our invisible, carboard president will be sitting on the pavement next to him.
Rather merciless comments from some quarters, but that's OK. I just don't wanna be on the Lyon / Voss / Scott / who's next carousel anymore after the incumbent has had no time no fly in what is a completely pointless season. And here was me thinking I was a ruthless so and so.
I know where I'd start with pruning useless coaches. Teague ain't one of them .... yet
How far have we come? In my eyes not very. Same rubbish but different. It was like Teague was going to sprinkle his magic dust on the players and all would be solved. As has been pointed out, his record vs his predecessors is scarily similar, skills havent improved, young players havent really developed, they continue to play rejects from other clubs. Im effin sick of it. I dont see anything different being tried, just the same stuff over and over again hoping for a different result. Its madness.
Unfortunately the issues that have afflicted our club are not going to disappear overnight. Some coach will do it one day but it will take a while to shift the attitude/culture. Been an issue since Ratten was sacked. Like something Hardwick inherited in 2010. Took a long time to turn that culture around. 3 years to make the finals, 3 years of losing the first final then a crap year before firing. Hopefully we don't take that long. Ability seem ok, we can play half a game of footy as good as anyone, attitude/culture/"want", that's the very disappointing issue....grrrrr!!!! Bar Port no club has won more qtrs than us, which is horribly disappointing given we are 0-2. Get an attitude, proper focus, and watch the skills improve.
You guys may very well turn out to be right.
The next 3 or 4 weeks will tell the story.
I just tried to imagine the effect the stutter start would have had....and it would be different for everyone.
One of the most cliché comments we tend to hear is "They're all professional footballers. They should tough it out."
But there's a world of difference between a mature 30 year old and an 18 year old recruit.
The mental durability varies greatly from player to player.
As we've also seen in recent times mental health issues can affect footballers in much the same way as they do the general population.
So this season is different from any other.
A month or two back and the players would have had little idea whether or not the season would even recommence.
They would have been training in isolation and the input and contact from the club would have been seriously limited compared to normal.
So in effect they've had 6-8 weeks of uncertainty compared to a normal pre-season of structured progressive training. I reckon that's got to impact, and clubs and players will handle that differently.... and because of that I reckon it will take a few weeks to determine where we really sit.
Lods, some cope, some dont, some win, some lose, some grow, some stall. Calton is always in the group that doesnt cope, loses, stalls. If there needed to be a study on on negatives, Carlton would be the prime subject. They are cursed, I gotta bring my mum there to get rid of the malocchio.
Rather merciless comments from some quarters, but that's OK. I just don't wanna be on the Lyon / Voss / Scott / who's next carousel anymore after the incumbent has had no time no fly in what is a completely pointless season. And here was me thinking I was a ruthless so and so.
I know where I'd start with pruning useless coaches. Teague ain't one of them .... yet
Carlton deserves every single piece of heat they can from every quarter of the football world. Our recent history is a constant feed of false dawns, false starts, failed recruiting, failed coaches, failed starts in games, its doesnt farken end my god!!!! I am 53 years and have followed and supported (financially bar a couple of years) the club since I can remember, I have gone on the odd rant before but I have never ever felt the sense of embarrassment I have for the once mighty Carlton Football Club like I do now.
Rather merciless comments from some quarters, but that's OK. I just don't wanna be on the Lyon / Voss / Scott / who's next carousel anymore after the incumbent has had no time no fly in what is a completely pointless season. And here was me thinking I was a ruthless so and so.
I know where I'd start with pruning useless coaches. Teague ain't one of them .... yet
But thats my whole bloody point, ITS AWLWAYS prune, sack, chop, cull, drop, reduce, sever ties, it doesnt bloody end.
Ross Lyon is done, that would be almost as bad of a decision as whoever signed Malthouse, almost.
Carlton deserves every single piece of heat they can from every quarter of the football world. Our recent history is a constant feed of false dawns, false starts, failed recruiting, failed coaches, failed starts in games, its doesnt farken end my god!!!! I am 53 years and have followed and supported (financially bar a couple of years) the club since I can remember, I have gone on the odd rant before but I have never ever felt the sense of embarrassment I have for the once mighty Carlton Football Club like I do now.
Did my message not come across as supporting the general thrust of your opinions on the subject GTC?
Did my message not come across as supporting the general thrust of your opinions on the subject GTC?
Yes mate, just venting and ranting some more. Wasnt having a crack
Yes mate, just venting and ranting some more. Wasnt having a crack
I know ... you can cut loose and so do I. :)) :)) The angels tread a little easier nowadays given my age 8)
Ross Lyon is done, that would be almost as bad of a decision as whoever signed Malthouse, almost.
The decision to sack Ratten was terrible, but Malthouse is not a bad replacement. You have to start asking questions when a bloke can have success at 3 clubs and only comes a cropper when he reaches the coach's graveyard.
Hopefully Teague succeeds, if for no other reason than we've run out of burial sites.
The decision to sack Ratten was terrible, but Malthouse is not a bad replacement.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Time passes everyone by, and in my opinion time had well and truly passed by Mick Malthouse long before he arrived at Carlton.
I think his appointment was more nostalgia than new direction!
We will have to agree to disagree.
Time passes everyone by, and in my opinion time had well and truly passed by Mick Malthouse long before he arrived at Carlton.
I think his appointment was more nostalgia than new direction!
Hmmm - you know 12 months before he came to us, he took Collingwood to the GF - 20 wins, 2 losses and a 167.7%. Whatever cliff he fell off in that 12 month period is probably located somewhere on the coastline along Royal Parade, and I think I know the exact spot. It's well known among the locals, a kind of Lover's Leap, but in reverse. :D
Hmmm - you know 12 months before he came to us, he took Collingwood to the GF - 20 wins, 2 losses and a 167.7%. Whatever cliff he fell off in that 12 month period is probably located somewhere on the coastline along Royal Parade, and I think I know the exact spot. It's well known among the locals, a kind of Lover's Leap, but in reverse. :D
While I understand your general point, the truth is that Collingwood was MM’s dung hill, made in his own image.
How long was he there again ?
He was part of the furniture, to then uproot him and bring him to the new home at Royal Pde, he never fitted the decor...
While I understand your general point, the truth is that Collingwood was MM’s dung hill, made in his own image.
How long was he there again ?
He was part of the furniture, to then uproot him and bring him to the new home at Royal Pde, he never fitted the decor...
That may be true, but why is it that several other coaches since 2000 have also 'failed to fit the decor?" Maybe the decor is the problem.........
Teague is Year 1 of a three year deal. Given the current financial climate, the League would almost take action against any club that sacked and paid out. It would also significantly reduce the pot in the soft cap (which has taken a beating anyway) as you would be paying off a sacked coach as well as new coach, which is turn would cost the places of two or three assistant coaches, medicos, well being officers or whatever.
Teague is going nowhere.
Teague is Year 1 of a three year deal. Given the current financial climate, the League would almost take action against any club that sacked and paid out. It would also significantly reduce the pot in the soft cap (which has taken a beating anyway) as you would be paying off a sacked coach as well as new coach, which is turn would cost the places of two or three assistant coaches, medicos, well being officers or whatever.
Teague is going nowhere.
Good points.
Teague is Year 1 of a three year deal. Given the current financial climate, the League would almost take action against any club that sacked and paid out. It would also significantly reduce the pot in the soft cap (which has taken a beating anyway) as you would be paying off a sacked coach as well as new coach, which is turn would cost the places of two or three assistant coaches, medicos, well being officers or whatever.
Teague is going nowhere.
Even if the results are disastrous?
Even if the results are disastrous?
Exactly. Our over riding priority has clearly been reset to getting wins in the short term using our older players. If that strategy fails the patience will quickly run out.
I want to know why some of those older players are still on the list, or put on there in the first place
If nothing else, Pittonet proved why Kreuzer was someone we should have replaced a while ago.
I want to know why some of those older players are still on the list, or put on there in the first place
Yep. That really puts us between a rock and a hard place. Too many of our mature players just aren't good enough or are injured/injury prone.
If nothing else, Pittonet proved why Kreuzer was someone we should have replaced a while ago.
We've picked up plenty of replacements but they haven't worked out, De Koning looks promising but he's on his own at the moment.
Pittonet is a nice guy but based on his historical output he is a placeholder. Who knows, maybe he can do a Levi and find ways to make himself more valuable, but we cannot assume it's going to be in the ruck.
Do we really want to recruit more "Tens years to wake up" type players?
Pittonet is a nice guy but based on his historical output he is a placeholder.
Gee, that's hard on a 202cm guy who only turned 24 2 weeks ago.
The three blokes on the Hawk's list who are legitimate rucks are all 29+ yo. McEvoy 31 next month....
Funny stuff LP.
Gee, that's hard on a 202cm guy who only turned 24 2 weeks ago.
The three blokes on the Hawk's list who are legitimate rucks are all 29+ yo. McEvoy 31 next month....
Funny stuff LP.
Agreed, as bad as we are travelling, a bit harsh to pot a bloke in his first game for the club.
Agreed, as bad as we are travelling, a bit harsh to pot a bloke in his first game for the club.
It's not his first AFL game, he's been in the system since 2014, it's a harsh reality.
If De Koning is at the same stage in 2023 many fans will want him cut due to the lack of progress!
By the time these rucks are 4 or 5 years in the system they need to be at a high level, if not they are likely to be career placeholders. A lot of players have entered the system later and gone past a guy like Pittonet.
Even Levi, without his improved KPP play he'd be long gone, because his rucking is at very best B-Grade but probably in reality C-Grade!
When we lose SpecialK we see such a stark difference in match-day outcomes, is not because SpecialK is fragile, but because the next player in line is so much weaker in the same role! He's our only current A-Grade ruck option by a long way!
Further, in recent years, we've been weakened because a bunch of Norbits somewhere decided rucks were over-rated and we bought in big time. Now the trend has reversed we are screwed and doing so from a position of weakness on the bottom of the ladder. We demolished the only part of our club that had A-Grade depth!
It's not his first AFL game, he's been in the system since 2014, it's a harsh reality.
If De Koning is at the same stage in 2023 many fans will want him cut due to the lack of progress!
By the time these rucks are 4 or 5 years in the system they need to be at a high level, if not they are likely to be career placeholders. A lot of players have entered the system later and gone past a guy like Pittonet.
Even Levi, without his improved KPP play he'd be long gone, because his rucking is at very best B-Grade but probably in reality C-Grade!
When we lose SpecialK we see such a stark difference in match-day outcomes, is not because SpecialK is fragile, but because the next player in line is so much weaker in the same role! He's our only current A-Grade ruck option by a long way!
Further, in recent years, we've been weakened because a bunch of Norbits somewhere decided rucks were over-rated and we bought in big time. Now the trend has reversed we are screwed and doing so from a position of weakness on the bottom of the ladder. We demolished the only part of our club that had A-Grade depth!
Bollocks.
Darcy Cameron picked by the Pies as their second ruckman - almost 25 with two career games!
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=5&type=A&pid1=4077&pid2=6373&fid1=C&fid2=C
Rowan Marshall at the Saints who only started coming good last year - 35 games and 6 months older.
Preuss at the Dees - 15 career games (2 clubs), 25 yesterday. 1 year older.
Smith at the Lions - almost 25, 11 games.
Bollocks.
Darcy Cameron picked by the Pies as their second ruckman - almost 25 with two career games!
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=5&type=A&pid1=4077&pid2=6373&fid1=C&fid2=C
Rowan Marshall at the Saints who only started coming good last year - 35 games and 6 months older.
Preuss at the Dees - 15 career games (2 clubs), 25 yesterday. 1 year older.
Smith at the Lions - almost 25, 11 games.
What use is referencing a bunch of 2nd ruck B or C graders when discussing a potential Kreuzer replacement?
2nd rucks, the definition of placeholders behind guys like Grundy, Ryder, Martin, Kreuzer, .
Preuss is down the ruck pecking order at the Dees, they've already picked up another kid to supersede him. Preuss might play ruck in the VFL, but that is basically two clubs and two fails, yet not many would suggest Preuss is weaker ruck option than Pittonet.
Smith at the Lions is in 3rd or 4th place in the 1st ruck pecking order.
Marshall needed Ryder to bail him out as a 1st ruck option, yet Marshall cleaned up our own 2nd ruck options and would be rated by most of our fans as well ahead of a guy like Pittonet.
If nothing else, Pittonet proved why Kreuzer was someone we should have replaced a while ago.
Fully agree, we need another ruckman like Pittonet for when we have injuries or when we need to play two specialist ruckman.
Its time for Kreuzer to retire...
What use is referencing a bunch of 2nd ruck B or C graders when discussing a potential Kreuzer replacement?
2nd rucks, the definition of placeholders behind guys like Grundy, Ryder, Martin, Kreuzer, .
Preuss is down the ruck pecking order at the Dees, they've already picked up another kid to supersede him. Preuss might play ruck in the VFL, but that is basically two clubs and two fails, yet not many would suggest Preuss is weaker ruck option than Pittonet.
Smith at the Lions is in 3rd or 4th place in the 1st ruck pecking order.
Marshall needed Ryder to bail him out as a 1st ruck option, yet Marshall cleaned up our own 2nd ruck options and would be rated by most of our fans as well ahead of a guy like Pittonet.
Marshall was originally a forward, with Ryder they can play him forward more and make up for losing McCartin and Bruce.
Gee, that's hard on a 202cm guy who only turned 24 2 weeks ago.
The three blokes on the Hawk's list who are legitimate rucks are all 29+ yo. McEvoy 31 next month....
Funny stuff LP.
Hawks will steal another ruckman, they like them mature and well schooled.......
Marshall was originally a forward, with Ryder they can play him forward more and make up for losing McCartin and Bruce.
Ryder's 200no and a small ruckman at that - barely taller than Weiters!!
What use is referencing a bunch of 2nd ruck B or C graders when discussing a potential Kreuzer replacement?
2nd rucks, the definition of placeholders behind guys like Grundy, Ryder, Martin, Kreuzer, .
Preuss is down the ruck pecking order at the Dees, they've already picked up another kid to supersede him. Preuss might play ruck in the VFL, but that is basically two clubs and two fails, yet not many would suggest Preuss is weaker ruck option than Pittonet.
Smith at the Lions is in 3rd or 4th place in the 1st ruck pecking order.
Marshall needed Ryder to bail him out as a 1st ruck option, yet Marshall cleaned up our own 2nd ruck options and would be rated by most of our fans as well ahead of a guy like Pittonet.
you really don't like admitting you're wrong, do you?
Being the 2nd best ruck in a club these days can be like being Australia's 2nd best wicketkeeper. Damn hard to get a game.
De Koning will eventually turn out very well for us. Will ruck well and can do well forward too. Look forward to him playing when he's eventually ready.
Ryder's 200no and a small ruckman at that - barely taller than Weiters!!
Ryder is 196cm....always had a great jump and has been under rated IMO but like Kreuzer is just hanging on now...
Being the 2nd best ruck in a club these days can be like being Australia's 2nd best wicketkeeper. Damn hard to get a game.
De Koning will eventually turn out very well for us. Will ruck well and can do well forward too. Look forward to him playing when he's eventually ready.
Presumptuous?
Being the 2nd best ruck in a club these days can be like being Australia's 2nd best wicketkeeper. Damn hard to get a game.
De Koning will eventually turn out very well for us. Will ruck well and can do well forward too. Look forward to him playing when he's eventually ready.
I like TDK and reckon he is very talented but I doubt he will be able to play a full season ever, very injury prone and
I just wish we could make him more robust. I'm more of the view he will survive longer if used sparingly in the ruck and more down forward.
I wasn't talking successful clubs in terms of recent history.
The early successful clubs in this bastardised 2020 season will be the ones that get their act together quickest.after the resumption.
Few if any seasons have had such a disruption after the season has commenced.
The uncertainty of the timing of the recommencement would also have impacted on the players.
Last weekend was virtually a new start to the year.
How individual players will have coped with the problems of isolation will vary dramatically.
Some will hit the ground without missing a beat and that will go for some teams as well.
Other will take a few weeks to hit their stride.
My point was Lods they prepared well and were ready to go when the ball was bounced rnd 2. Your mob is still trying to figure out when the season re-starts (so to speak)
I like TDK and reckon he is very talented but I doubt he will be able to play a full season ever, very injury prone and
I just wish we could make him more robust. I'm more of the view he will survive longer if used sparingly in the ruck and more down forward.
That describes at least a dozen on the list.
you really don't like admitting you're wrong, do you?
It's not about being right or wrong, it's just a discussion that most do not take personally, so relax and join the debate.
Do you think Pittonet is better than Preuss, Marshall, Cameron or Smith, if you do what is the basis for that assessment?
FWIW, last season Marshall was probably amongst the BoG against us twice, putting SpecialK and Levi to the sword! Even so Ratten now has Marshall playing 2nd fiddle to Ryder. Of course in those games we played SpecialK under-done or injured with only Levi as a viable backup, and Levi as a ruck option is not up to it. McKay was next to worthless as well, the only part of McKay that is ruck is his height and there the analogy ends!
Are any of those listed above at the current or previous levels of SpecialK, Gawn, Grundy, Naitanui or any other 1st ruck?
If not then how are they viable replacements for a 1st ruck, ever?
What's the point of spending time developing supplementary types, shouldn't we be trying to find a genuine 1st ruck replacement, someone the equivalent of a fit SpecialK? At this stage there seems to be only one hope on our list, De Koning.
When fans post about have a solo first ruck, I doubt they are thinking about having a Pittonet, Marshall, Cameron, Casboult, etc., etc., type 1st rucking in a premiership hunt. I suspect they are thinking about Gawn, Grundy, Naitanui, martin or Nankervis type, unambiguously 1st rucks.
It's not about being right or wrong, you seem to take this very personally, and it seems to me deeply hate having your arbitrary proclamations questioned.
Do you think Pittonet is better than Preuss, Marshall, Cameron or Smith, if you do what is the basis for that assessment?
FWIW, last season Marshall was probably amongst the BoG against us twice, putting SpecialK and Levi to the sword! Even so Ratten now has Marshall playing 2nd fiddle to Ryder.
Are any of those listed above at the level of SpecialK, Gawn, Grundy, Naitanui, 1st rucks?
If not then how are they viable replacements for a 1st ruck, ever?
What's the point of spending time developing supplementary types, shouldn't we be trying to find a genuine 1st ruck replacement?
It's way too early to judge Pittonet but nothing to suggest (currently) he's not the equal or better of 3 of the first 4 mentioned. Marshall is (currently) a better player.
My point - in response to your original comments - is that there is nothing to suggest Pittonet can't be a very capable first ruck. Big unit (202cm, 105kg) with mongrel, good mark, not slow, appears durable and has an excellent work ethic. And knows how to lay a tackle!
https://www.hawthornfc.com.au/news/461242/pittonets-dominance-recognised
Special K is all but dusted sadly, Gawn is 29 this year (121 games now, had only played 20 odd games at Pittonet's age) , Grundy is 26 with 134 games), Naitanui just hit 30, 168 games.
Some highlights from the Dees game on Pittonet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kAOcO8xpMI
The commentators were impressed....
It's way too early to judge Pittonet but nothing to suggest (currently) he's not the equal or better of 3 of the first 4 mentioned. Marshall is (currently) a better player.
My point - in response to your original comments - is that there is nothing to suggest Pittonet can't be a very capable first ruck. Big unit (202cm, 105kg) with mongrel, good mark, not slow, appears durable and has an excellent work ethic.
https://www.hawthornfc.com.au/news/461242/pittonets-dominance-recognised
Special K is all but dusted sadly, Gawn is 29 this year (121 games now, had only played 20 odd games at Pittonet's age) , Grundy is 26 with 134 games), Naitanui just hit 30, 168 games.
All players had a start, it doesn't count for much.
I'm not sure it's viable to consider VFL rucking as a valid comparison to AFL. If it was how can it be Nick Meese languished his whole career in the VFL, he was the VFL's dominant ruck for almost a decade?
We all wish Pittonet well, but wishes do not count for much and it will be another 2 or 3 seasons before we get the genuine answer. If we wait until then to put an backup plan in place we've burned the careers of Cripps and others. I'd much rather put that time into De Koning as he seems to have potential beyond Pittonet, or perhaps another kid. So for me Pittonet is a place holder, even if I wish him well.
Some highlights from the Dees game on Pittonet.
The commentators were impressed....
Yes, I wrote as much in the voting thread that I would have liked to give him votes, but I had to temper that against his opponent running rampant.
I'm not going to confuse good with dominant efforts, we might be looking at Pittonet through rose coloured glasses having put up with rather poor 2nd ruck options for so long.
At the weekend Pittonet did what was expected after being dominated early, he competed and halved the contest, but he didn't dominate. It's a hell of a jump to be proclaimed as 1st dominance capable against a Gawn or Grundy type, Kreuzer often was, and I think we need a replacement who is capable of dominating them not just squaring the contest.
I'd be more confident of developing Pittonet if we still had Josh Fraser around the club, Fraser coached Liam Jones into VFL ruck dominance. Who are our current ruck / midfield / stoppage coaches? Hamish Macintosh and John Barker, nice blokes!
I love Kreuzer as much as the next bloke, but for quite some time he was both the reason we won and lost games, and that equation doesnt get a team very far in AFL footy.
You can rely on a bloke like Cripps, or Judd lets say, but not someone who is a 24/7 footballer. Plays 7 great games a year and injured for 24. That means make HIM the second banana, and he can fill in for the fit young bull who can do a job every week, and then come finals time play them in a tandem.
For me, having watched the replay, the absolute best thing to come out of the weekends game, ignoring the outcome of the set shots, was Cripps clunking marks inside F50.
Get him working with Rocca, leave Levi, McKay and McGovern pumping up and down the field on hard lead after hard lead.
Let Cripps float inside F50 to have a rest by clunking and kicking a few, he and perhaps Weitering are serious serious F50 marking options!
All players had a start, it doesn't count for much.
I'm not sure it's viable to consider VFL rucking as a valid comparison to AFL. If it was how can it be Nick Meese languished his whole career in the VFL, he was the VFL's dominant ruck for almost a decade?
We all wish Pittonet well, but wishes do not count for much and it will be another 2 or 3 seasons before we get the genuine answer. If we wait until then to put an backup plan in place we've burned the careers of Cripps and others. I'd much rather put that time into De Koning as he seems to have potential beyond Pittonet, or perhaps another kid. So for me Pittonet is a place holder, even if I wish him well.
Did I say that? No. But he's clearly done his apprenticeship.
Using Meese as a comparison is just you trying to be cute - and failing.
Meese was overlooked for years, rightly or wrongly, for well documented reasons. Height and tank.
And it won't take 2-3 years to see how good he is - he gave Grundy a fair touch up this year. We'll know this season his 'potential'.
Playing TDK as the #1 ruck now will simply ruin the kid - as we did to Kreuzer to be honest.
The Frenchman is a big man, a hard man and other ruckmen know it.
TDK is a spindly kid - any other ruckmen know that too.
Your logic is flawed.
Don't need a gun ruckman to win a flag. Pittonet will do if this weeks game was a good example of what he can do, and he regularly plays to that standard or above. A gun ruck would be nice of course, but we need a gun mid or two and a small forward more.
I reckon he'll be fine for us. Cost us little anyway.
Pittonet is what we should expect from 2nd rucks, but so far his best is miles off a good 1st ruck.
It's clear some either undervalue very good ruckmen, or think the ones we've got are mustard, but I think that is just looking at our guys through navy blue glasses.
I'm not sure you can take average ruck into a GF and think you'll be at no disadvantage. Looking at recent selection trends there are a bunch of AFL coaches that think the very same.
Did I say that? No. But he's clearly done his apprenticeship.
Using Meese as a comparison is just you trying to be cute - and failing.
Meese was overlooked for years, rightly or wrongly, for well documented reasons. Height and tank.
And it won't take 2-3 years to see how good he is - he gave Grundy a fair touch up this year. We'll know this season his 'potential'.
Playing TDK as the #1 ruck now will simply ruin the kid - as we did to Kreuzer to be honest.
The Frenchman Italian is a big man, a hard man and other ruckmen know it.
TDK is a spindly kid - any other ruckmen know that too.
Your logic is flawed.
EFA
Is he any better or worse than Phillips?
Is he any better or worse than Phillips?
I suspect not.
Is he another Phillips, I think that's the bigger question, Pittonet appears to be more durable than Phillips? So that makes me wonder what has held him back if not injuries!
I want them all the succeed when they come to our club, but I'm ultra-cognisant of the toll our apparent lack of progress in this area is taking on Cripps. I think I'm justified in being impatient to find a genuine 1st ruck option, not more support acts. A big midfield presence that can deliver a guy like Cripps some hope!
On a separate issue to the ruck debate;
Has Cripps desire to become leaner / faster taken a toll on his well-being and diminished some of his key strengths.
Does he look rundown to other fans?
I suspect not.
Is he another Phillips, I think that's the bigger question, Pittonet appears to be more durable than Phillips? So that makes me wonder what has held him back if not injuries!
I want them all the succeed when they come to our club, but I'm ultra-cognisant of the toll our apparent lack of progress in this area is taking on Cripps. I think I'm justified in being impatient to find a genuine 1st ruck option, not more support acts. A big midfield presence that can deliver a guy like Cripps some hope!
Even back in 2017, Pittonet was the 2nd best ruck (behind Meese) in the VFL.
Just watched the replay of the last 3 quarters - we have no one but ourselves to blame for the loss - shocking misses by the Guv and Cripps in Q3 (likwise in Q4 by Betts, Martin and Cripps - all easy set shots).
Pittonet was the better overall ruckman in Q2 through Q4 - might not have won the centre square taps but negated Gawn there and won around the ground comfortably.
Walsh had two kicks I50 with a minute to go - butchered both of them.
The Dees were insipid after half time. Worse than us in Q1.
As others have said, we've forgotten how to win. And the umps didn't help.
A very bad loss.
Non contributors from us - Simmo, Big H (gave away a few critical frees), Newnes.
Everyone else has huge room to improve - Martin, SPS, Cripps, Levi, Eddie, Doc, Walsh.
Setters? Needs to get involved more (ditto SPS and the Guv especially)
Murphy? Fine as an outside receiver, not much good on the inside anymore.
Blokes on our list like Murphy, Fisher, Cunningham, O'Brien, SPS, Dow, Walsh, Owies, Polson, Ed Curnow, Gibbons, etc, etc, are easy targets for criticism when things go bad. But they are not heavy bodied inside mids, never were and never will be.
There output depends on the presence of a guy like Kreuzer, for everything he does beside the contesting the tap, winning the tap is almost ancillary. When Kreuzer is in they play better, regardless of SpecialK's form line. Because when SpecialK's feet hit the ground his natural instinct is to hunt the footy and opponents without hesitation. It makes the little blokes stand taller, it makes life a little easier for other potential big bodied mids like Cripps, Setterfield, SoJ, Plowman, Charlie Curnow, etc., etc..
Being good in the ruck and a team winning clearances was never, is never and will never be about just squaring the contest or winning the tap against your opponent.
I'll never accept a ruckmen in the mould of a Warnock or Phillips, because just winning the taps contributes so little to the team. It's one of the reasons why I liked Jones rucking so much in the VFL, and cannot understand how he never had a crack as a 2nd ruck in the AFL. He is not a great tap ruckmen, and won't better many opponents at the bounce or at a stoppage, but when the ball hit the ground he was after it like a rat up a drain pipe!
EFA
His nickname is the Frenchman!
Blokes on our list like Murphy, Fisher, Cunningham, O'Brien, SPS, Dow, Walsh, Owies, Polson, Ed Curnow, Gibbons, etc, etc, are easy targets for criticism when things go bad. But they are not heavy bodied inside mids, never were and never will be.
There output depends on the presence of a guy like Kreuzer, for everything he does beside the contesting the tap, winning the tap is almost ancillary. When Kreuzer is in they play better, regardless of SpecialK's form line. Because when SpecialK's feet hit the ground his natural instinct is to hunt the footy and opponents without hesitation. It makes the little blokes stand taller, it makes life a little easier for other potential big bodied mids like Cripps, Setterfield, SoJ, Plowman, Charlie Curnow, etc., etc..
Being good in the ruck and a team winning clearances was never, is never and will never be about just squaring the contest or winning the tap against your opponent.
I'll never accept a ruckmen in the mould of a Warnock or Phillips, because just winning the taps contributes so little to the team. It's one of the reasons why I liked Jones rucking so much in the VFL, and cannot understand how he never had a crack as a 2nd ruck in the AFL. He is not a great tap ruckmen, and won't better many opponents at the bounce or at a stoppage, but when the ball hit the ground he was after it like a rat up a drain pipe!
Doesn't matter how big or small you are if you can win the ball and use it well.
Lachie Neale - 177cm, 84kg.
SPS just doesnt man opponents or chase hard enough, that initial effort on Petracca was pathetic where he was half hearted and clearly couldnt be bothered chasing. It was the start of the game and he was fresh, no excuse, if Teague allows that kind of effort to be rewarded with games then we wont get anywhere. I would drop him this week and give Stocker a run, the latter might not have all the bells and whistles that SPS has but already I know he will give you effort on the basics like tackling every game.
How non descripts like Hunt and Neal Bullen got 5 goals between them also remains a mystery, crap manning up of small/mid sized forwards is a hallmark of our defense, I dont care how many possies our defenders get a match they need to pay more attention to their man. Myers will probably kick a bundle this week because no one will pick him up....
Doesn't matter how big or small you are if you can win the ball and use it well.
Lachie Neale - 177cm, 84kg.
We got to the football 1st plenty of times at the weekend, even in the 1st quarter.
Use of the football is also influenced by the quality of the ruck and the ruck's involvement in shepherding midfielders from opponents. It's why GWS were so desperate to get Mumford back on the park, he protects guys like Whitfield and Coniglio from the pissweak "hang back and then tackle them types" that inflicted so much pain on us last weekend. People in the media pumped up Oliver and Petracca, but seriously as midfield bulls probably more than 50% of their possessions came from letting a Carlton player try to pick the ball up first. Fair enough, they know they are big enough to inflict pain on smaller mids, and that we lack the pace or strength to do anything in response, they were well coached in this regard.
I've stated before, the current rules reward the pissweak who leave winning the first touch to somebody else.
Who the feck are our midfield and stoppages coaches, how could we have such a wrongly phrased plan?
We got to the football 1st plenty of times at the weekend, even in the 1st quarter.
Use of the football is also influenced by the quality of the ruck and the ruck's involvement in shepherding midfielders from opponents. It's why GWS were so desperate to get Mumford back on the park, he protects guys like Whitfield and Coniglio from the pissweak "hang back and then tackle them types" that inflicted so much pain on us last weekend. People in the media pumped up Oliver and Petracca, but seriously as midfield bulls probably more than 50% of their possessions came from letting a Carlton player try to pick the ball up first. Fair enough, they know they are big enough to inflict pain on smaller mids, and that we lack the pace or strength to do anything in response, they were well coached in this regard.
I've stated before, the current rules reward the pissweak who leave winning the first touch to somebody else.
Who the feck are our midfield and stoppages coaches, how could we have such a wrongly phrased plan?
Is that Barkers role?...and why was Oliver allowed to hold Cripps way off the contest all the time without another team-mate blocking for him or delivering some physicality to Oliver.
Now we have Brett Deledio and Kane Cornes all suggesting Cripps should look elsewhere and given the lack of help he is getting he might start thinking about it..
I watched ex Blue Nick Holman take out Luke Shuey with a lovely bump that left Shuey counting his ribs...when was the last time we saw a Carlton player do that to a opposition player....maybe Robbo?, thats what Oliver needed.
Is that Barkers role?...and why was Oliver allowed to hold Cripps way off the contest all the time without another team-mate blocking for him or delivering some physicality to Oliver.
Now we have Brett Deledio and Kane Cornes all suggesting Cripps should look elsewhere and given the lack of help he is getting he might start thinking about it..
I watched ex Blue Nick Holman take out Luke Shuey with a lovely bump that left Shuey counting his ribs...when was the last time we saw a Carlton player do that to a opposition player....maybe Robbo?, thats what Oliver needed.
I feel your pain EB1.
Funny I was think the exact same thing watching the replay, not just Oliver, but the Dees put player after player between Cripps and the football nearly all of it illegal shepherding. I miss Mitch Robinson!
Why does someone like Cripps get stuff all umpire protection, while blokes like Dangerfield or Bont get a free ride? Who at our club has governance over this, and how and when are those issues being raised with the AFL?
On a separate issue to the ruck debate;
Has Cripps desire to become leaner / faster taken a toll on his well-being and diminished some of his key strengths.
Does he look rundown to other fans?
He looked flat on the weekend but....
Is it a more general issue than just Cripps.
Have we sacrificed size and strength for a leaner, fitter side that gets smashed at the contest early on but can run out games better than most.
Doesn't matter how big or small you are if you can win the ball and use it well.
Lachie Neale - 177cm, 84kg.
Agree and I'm getting tired of this big bodied mid term thats now become an excuse when you lose. Reality is there are only a handful of big bodied mids in the comp worth a pinch of salt, main suspects being Crippa, Fyfe, Pendles and Bontempelli. When you look at the Tiggers, its the lesser likes (not necessarily big blokes) that have lifted, and more than just played a role, that is the key to their success. Blokes like Lambert, Vlaustin, Townsend (gone), Butler (gone), Bolton, Pickett, Baker, Higgins. No necessarily high draft picks but they more than contribute and are rarely labelled as passenger. We are the opposite, one bus driver (Cripps) and bus load of blokes along for the ride. Need to change this or the loses (honorable or otherwise) will continue.
I feel your pain EB1.
Funny I was think the exact same thing watching the replay, not just Oliver, but the Dees put player after player between Cripps and the football nearly all of it illegal shepherding. I miss Mitch Robinson!
Likewise. As just one example, when a leader/senior player like Murphy squibs it, it sends a poor message to the rest of the group. His play improved in the remainder of the D's game but by then the damage was done. We need blokes at the bounce with an uncompromising hard edge; a mongrel desire to get the aggott and keep the aggott.
That 1st qtr will go down in history as the worst first qtr ever from a group of blokes wearing the great CFC on their chests.
I don't have problems with blokes like Murphy, Walsh or Fisher not smashing themselves against the rocks, that is not what they are there for.
Fans can be ignorant of the risk, they want little guys like that pulverising themselves in the first contest of the day just to make a statement, so the team risks losing them for the rest of the match. Just be happy to see them getting first to the ball, and find a way to protect them from the hunters.
If you make a Murphy, Walsh or Fisher type go head to head with a Hodge type, you lose, plain and simple. Our real problem is having Pittonet, McKay, McGovern or Casboult sized blokes watching our little blokes get cleaned up!
Opponents go fearlessly towards our smalls guys because we've nobody protecting them!
We've a couple of guys who are big bodied, but play like small, Setterfield and Marchbank come to mind. Young SoJ when he is on the ball at least makes opponents answer for their actions.
If he could get fit and stay healthy, Kennedy is a nice option for inside stoppage work but he's slow, he has to be counterbalanced with some quick peripheral players and we've got none at the moment.
Gibbon's is a great footballer, love him like I love Brock McLean as a smart footballer, but they both have the same problem, mud would outrun them!
March bank.... What a bitter disappointment. What has he played, 20 games in five years?
March bank.... What a bitter disappointment. What has he played, 20 games in five years?
48 total - 7 GWS (2015,16), 41 Carlton (2017-19)
March bank.... What a bitter disappointment. What has he played, 20 games in five years?
Chandelier.