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Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #45
Last nights game shows how far we drop when we lose more then 2-3 from our starting 18. We have 'just' been competitive without cripps and curnow but once you take out a few more we drop very quickly.

Our list has an early tipping point due to lack of decent depth players and I really hope sos does a better job then he did last year in this regard.

Players like smedts and Palmer are wasted picks IMO we need decent consistent back ups not high risk perspective picks for these positions.

We can't be uncompetitive next season when we are down a few soldiers which will occur in a long season.

With a healthy list we could win 8-10 games next year. But lose more then 2-3 of starting 18 and we quickly drop off to close to  the worst team in the comp.
 
Kelly hooper and co would be nice additions if SOS can make it happen but the need of real depth players can't be underestimated.

Can we achieve that and at the same time be trading out too many key members of our current best 22? This will be the challenge for next year and mistakes could be costly. I think SoS is well across things and I'm pretty confident ways will be found. A fascinating time to be a CFC supporter for sure.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #46
2 points to start off with.

Does any team lose it's feet more, or fall/slip over more than Carlton? Is it just me or do our blokes seem to slip and slide all over the place. It's been noticeable for a couple of seasons and I'm sure I've heard it commented on before. Needs sorting out whether it's a boots thing or a lack of Pilates.

Does any team get a better run from the umpires than Sydney? It's disgraceful. Sure it's not why we lost but feck me, it just irks me sooo much.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #47
2 points to start off with.

Does any team lose it's feet more, or fall/slip over more than Carlton? Is it just me or do our blokes seem to slip and slide all over the place. It's been noticeable for a couple of seasons and I'm sure I've heard it commented on before. Needs sorting out whether it's a boots thing or a lack of Pilates.

Does any team get a better run from the umpires than Sydney? It's disgraceful. Sure it's not why we lost but feck me, it just irks me sooo much.
1. Yes we slip over alot
2. Yes there is a team that gets a better leg up from the maggots, Geel at SS. Unwatchable.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #48
Last nights game shows how far we drop when we lose more then 2-3 from our starting 18. We have 'just' been competitive without cripps and curnow but once you take out a few more we drop very quickly.

Our list has an early tipping point due to lack of decent depth players and I really hope sos does a better job then he did last year in this regard.

Players like smedts and Palmer are wasted picks IMO we need decent consistent back ups not high risk perspective picks for these positions.

We can't be uncompetitive next season when we are down a few soldiers which will occur in a long season.

With a healthy list we could win 8-10 games next year. But lose more then 2-3 of starting 18 and we quickly drop off to close to  the worst team in the comp.
 
Kelly hooper and co would be nice additions if SOS can make it happen but the need of real depth players can't be underestimated.

Generally agree Shawny, except on Palmer : the only reason he's not getting games is because of our youth policy. He is exactly what a depth player should be - inexpensive, experienced, and can play a role decently without starring. Bolton's statement about picking players on form is nonsense. If it were true, Palmer would be a regular fixture in the 1sts.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #49
Bit of a grim night. Made the trip up as well, but some warmer weather offset the second half belting. As a footy fan one doesn't see 10 goals kicked by a forward often either.

The midfield shallowness as others have said is the off season priority. Players with possessions in single figures mean huge pressure on a few.  A couple of big bodies to line up with Cripps is urgent.

On the positive side we had a few passages of classy ball movement in the second quarter with centering kicks. Showed some promise and some confidence

As for players departing, well done Dennis for a good career. Others that may have played their last game are graham and casboult. I can't see why we would offer him anything more than a year or two so he will likely leave.  Richmond have missed a ty Vickery style disappointment so may be a suitor.

Overall a poor season but getting games into players has been the success. The 2015 and 2016 draft cohort have all played some good chunks of league footy. Whereas the players from 2011-2014 are thin on the ground.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #50
Another disappointing night for us poor Sydney based supporters - I think that's 10 losses in a row in Sydney now.

We were belted in the 1st quarter, but when we took the game on in the second quarter with run and handball we started to ask questions of the Swans. We were very unlucky not to be ahead at half time.

In the 3rd we went back into our shells as the swans mids started to assert themselves. When we move the ball slowly across half back on a small ground we are very easy to defend against. We played the spare man [Simmo] in the backline which left the Swans with a +1 [it was often Lloyd] at the stoppages. Giving the strongest midfield in the comp an extra player on a small ground didn't really work out all the well for us!!

Murph tried hard and does a power of running, but he doesn't hurt teams with his possessions. I just think he is more of support act rather than the main man - I wouldn't be against him passing the mantle onto Cripps or Doc next year.

Kruz was immense and was probably the only clear winner we had on the day. All of our mid tier players really struggled to have any influence when compared to their opponents.

Went into the rooms after the game. The talk was Bryne had done an ankle, and he was in a moon boot on crutches. The mood was very somber - like a morgue really. Trigg spoke to the group and did some thank yous etc to support staff and they made a presentation to Neil Craig. They were in a rush to get to the airport to fly home, and were ushered off into another room for a meeting. It was as flat as a pancake. Spoke to the President for a few minutes - he was the only one in a positive mood.

Overall a disappointing end to another year bouncing along the bottom of the ladder. Let's not forget we have won 24 games in the last 4 years [88 games], and all the raw stats tell you we haven't improved a lot compared to last year, but I'm sure there will be another thread on that topic. We are only ahead of Brisbane [19] and slightly behind GC [26] for wins over the last 4 years, and you could probably mount an argument that all those 3 teams need a priority pick to be any chance to break out of the bottom 4 next year.   

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #51
sbf, given your issues with our scoring impotence (which I completely agree with btw), you should have crash tackled Bolts in the rooms and demanded to know what he intends to do next season to get us closer to regularly scoring about 100 points. A guaranteed mood lifter if ever there was one.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #52
And dopey jokes aside, I don't think any of the teams you mention deserve a priority pick.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #53
An interesting draft and trade period coming up, we definitely have a more promising list but consistent results will take some time.
Sydney simply outclassed us and some of our second tier players couldn't cope with the pressure they applied.
We were a couple short in the back half and they were able to isolate Franklin and Jones to a large degree, and Buddy beats anyone one on one given enough opportunity.
In contrast they were able to exploit Casboult's lack of mobility and block him so that there were a large number of contests he didn't reach, it's a major flaw in his game which any solid defence can take advantage of.
It was around the stoppages that we were most badly beaten though which highlights how important Cripps is to to our fortunes, Graham just isn't good enough and Kerridge was ineffective after a couple of pretty good games. When it's only Murphy and Gibbs versus a hard and disciplined midfield we'll struggle badly, if not for the tireless and very talented Matty Kreuzer it would have been even worse.
We have to cop this sort of loss for a little while yet, hard as they are to accept.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #54
And dopey jokes aside, I don't think any of the teams you mention deserve a priority pick.
It's an interesting argument and depends on your definition of 'deserve' - I think it's more a question of need.

We all know that the playing field is not even, and the idea that priority picks 'reward mediocrity' is furpphy to me. We have been consistently ordinary for 4 years straight, and at a minimum we are 2-3 years away from having a consistently competitive side assuming the majority of our draftees develop into good players, and we find a way to kick 3-5 more goals per week. An extra pick would provide a small benefit to help close the gap for those 3 teams who have consistently under performed.

The issue with our scoring has been something I have banged on about 2 years, and the simple fact is we haven't really improved. Our conversion improved slightly [so we scored slightly more] but our scoring shots went down. I predicted at the start of the year we would finish bottom 4 because I couldn't see how we would score enough to win more than 25% of our games. It is statistically shown that you will win about 1 in 4 games if you only have 20 scoring shots - and this is exactly what happened this year for us.

Have a look at the Bombers rise this year - there defence is marginally better than ours but they will end up scoring 600 points more than last year through the development of their drafted forwards and recruiting [Greene and Stewart] to spread the load. I will confidently predict again that we will not move up the ladder in 2018 until we find a way to have 5-6 more scoring shots each week and convert those into 3-4 more goals.

I would have loved to have button holed Bolton but the whole coaching group didn't look like they were keen to engage with anybody - especially an opinionated punter like me!! I've actually never seen a more depressing footy dressing room in my life!

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #55
It's an interesting argument and depends on your definition of 'deserve' - I think it's more a question of need.

We all know that the playing field is not even, and the idea that priority picks 'reward mediocrity' is furpphy to me. We have been consistently ordinary for 4 years straight, and at a minimum we are 2-3 years away from having a consistently competitive side assuming the majority of our draftees develop into good players, and we find a way to kick 3-5 more goals per week. An extra pick would provide a small benefit to help close the gap for those 3 teams who have consistently under performed.

The issue with our scoring has been something I have banged on about 2 years, and the simple fact is we haven't really improved. Our conversion improved slightly [so we scored slightly more] but our scoring shots went down. I predicted at the start of the year we would finish bottom 4 because I couldn't see how we would score enough to win more than 25% of our games. It is statistically shown that you will win about 1 in 4 games if you only have 20 scoring shots - and this is exactly what happened this year for us.

Have a look at the Bombers rise this year - there defence is marginally better than ours but they will end up scoring 600 points more than last year through the development of their drafted forwards and recruiting [Greene and Stewart] to spread the load. I will confidently predict again that we will not move up the ladder in 2018 until we find a way to have 5-6 more scoring shots each week and convert those into 3-4 more goals.

I would have loved to have button holed Bolton but the whole coaching group didn't look like they were keen to engage with anybody - especially an opinionated punter like me!! I've actually never seen a more depressing footy dressing room in my life!

2nd last for Inside 50's...cant kick goals from the half backline.....and when it does get down there we only have 5 forwards usually due to the defensive game plan.
Thats not a recipe for goalscoring.....

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #56
Like I said earlier in the season if we lose Cripps we are stuffed and wont win many games...we have to fix that pronto...Casboult looked intimidated by Grundy and outbodied.....
Graham...goodbye...Kerridge has been reasonable but is a stop gap until we get better replacements...

Defenders don't need to outbody Levi, they only need to be able to position themselves properly because he can't change direction.
With a clear run at it he'll mark it more often than not, but take that out of his game and there's not much left.
Graham should be delisted, along with Jaksch, Buckley and Sumner, not sure about the status of Gorringe but hell never make the cut IMO.
If Casboult isn't traded I'd delist him as well, and if McKay doesn't measure up have a rethink then but persevering with Levi will take us nowhere.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #57
It's an interesting argument and depends on your definition of 'deserve' - I think it's more a question of need.

We all know that the playing field is not even, and the idea that priority picks 'reward mediocrity' is furpphy to me. We have been consistently ordinary for 4 years straight, and at a minimum we are 2-3 years away from having a consistently competitive side assuming the majority of our draftees develop into good players, and we find a way to kick 3-5 more goals per week. An extra pick would provide a small benefit to help close the gap for those 3 teams who have consistently under performed.

The issue with our scoring has been something I have banged on about 2 years, and the simple fact is we haven't really improved. Our conversion improved slightly [so we scored slightly more] but our scoring shots went down. I predicted at the start of the year we would finish bottom 4 because I couldn't see how we would score enough to win more than 25% of our games. It is statistically shown that you will win about 1 in 4 games if you only have 20 scoring shots - and this is exactly what happened this year for us.

Have a look at the Bombers rise this year - there defence is marginally better than ours but they will end up scoring 600 points more than last year through the development of their drafted forwards and recruiting [Greene and Stewart] to spread the load. I will confidently predict again that we will not move up the ladder in 2018 until we find a way to have 5-6 more scoring shots each week and convert those into 3-4 more goals.

I would have loved to have button holed Bolton but the whole coaching group didn't look like they were keen to engage with anybody - especially an opinionated punter like me!! I've actually never seen a more depressing footy dressing room in my life!

Bombers have Joe Daniher who has gone from being a bit of a joke to a quality player...not many blokes his size have his leap and pace....watched him take several bounces from the middle and kick 60 m goals on the run and he couldnt be run down.....
Harry Mckay has to be our Daniher or Ben Brown or we will go nowhere ...you need that reliable 50 goal plus forward who the opposition have to plan for every week...

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #58
It's an interesting argument and depends on your definition of 'deserve' - I think it's more a question of need.

We all know that the playing field is not even, and the idea that priority picks 'reward mediocrity' is furpphy to me. We have been consistently ordinary for 4 years straight, and at a minimum we are 2-3 years away from having a consistently competitive side assuming the majority of our draftees develop into good players, and we find a way to kick 3-5 more goals per week. An extra pick would provide a small benefit to help close the gap for those 3 teams who have consistently under performed.

The issue with our scoring has been something I have banged on about 2 years, and the simple fact is we haven't really improved. Our conversion improved slightly [so we scored slightly more] but our scoring shots went down. I predicted at the start of the year we would finish bottom 4 because I couldn't see how we would score enough to win more than 25% of our games. It is statistically shown that you will win about 1 in 4 games if you only have 20 scoring shots - and this is exactly what happened this year for us.

Have a look at the Bombers rise this year - there defence is marginally better than ours but they will end up scoring 600 points more than last year through the development of their drafted forwards and recruiting [Greene and Stewart] to spread the load. I will confidently predict again that we will not move up the ladder in 2018 until we find a way to have 5-6 more scoring shots each week and convert those into 3-4 more goals.

I would have loved to have button holed Bolton but the whole coaching group didn't look like they were keen to engage with anybody - especially an opinionated punter like me!! I've actually never seen a more depressing footy dressing room in my life!

Thank you for your insights SBF, getting your comments re mood in the rooms, on the spot witnessing of our capitulation... much appreciated. Much can be read when you're right there. Hope your little one wasn't too disheartened by what he/she witnessed. My kids grew up on games at PP, MCG and Waverley in the 80s... yep, spoilt!

Concerns me that the mood was depressed... should have been anger.

Perhaps it will ultimately be a good thing that our weak underbelly was exposed for all to see. Yes, we were missing 7 or 8 first picked blokes... but it was much the same last week and the week before. So that aint an excuse/reason. This was about mental toughness. You only need one bloke to be soft and it can and does undermine spirit... take a bow, Meat.

The CFC supporters have shown herculean tolerance and patience over a long period and particularly the last two years. If we turn at 3 and 8 (or thereabouts) midway through next year then I suspect membership will fall and patience will have run out and a steely gaze will be upon the place from CEO down.

I believe we need to be more aggressive than ever at this year's draft and bring known midfield talent / depth into the place, and get rid of the last of the non hackers (Meat included). We need more mentally strong blokes in the place.



Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Rd 23: Post Game Party: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #59
It's an interesting argument and depends on your definition of 'deserve' - I think it's more a question of need.

We all know that the playing field is not even, and the idea that priority picks 'reward mediocrity' is furpphy to me. We have been consistently ordinary for 4 years straight, and at a minimum we are 2-3 years away from having a consistently competitive side assuming the majority of our draftees develop into good players, and we find a way to kick 3-5 more goals per week. An extra pick would provide a small benefit to help close the gap for those 3 teams who have consistently under performed.

The issue with our scoring has been something I have banged on about 2 years, and the simple fact is we haven't really improved. Our conversion improved slightly [so we scored slightly more] but our scoring shots went down. I predicted at the start of the year we would finish bottom 4 because I couldn't see how we would score enough to win more than 25% of our games. It is statistically shown that you will win about 1 in 4 games if you only have 20 scoring shots - and this is exactly what happened this year for us.

Have a look at the Bombers rise this year - there defence is marginally better than ours but they will end up scoring 600 points more than last year through the development of their drafted forwards and recruiting [Greene and Stewart] to spread the load. I will confidently predict again that we will not move up the ladder in 2018 until we find a way to have 5-6 more scoring shots each week and convert those into 3-4 more goals.

I would have loved to have button holed Bolton but the whole coaching group didn't look like they were keen to engage with anybody - especially an opinionated punter like me!! I've actually never seen a more depressing footy dressing room in my life!

sbf, as always, you make some fair points. I reckon one possible reason for the coaching group looking miserable is that they got a reality check for how much work still needs to be done to be a genuine challenger, which then means more green shoot propaganda, more of a hard sell to fans etc., not to mention the actual real work of drafting, trading developing etc., and making sure it's all done right.

wrt to a PP, if I was the AFL, I would not be looking at the MM years at all. That IMO is in the past. I would tell the club :
- you have 5 RS nominations this year, one last year, one of whom is playing CHF and looks a chance to be the best player in the comp
- you have plenty of high draft picks, through draft and trades.
- you have a stated policy of playing youth, which makes it harder to win games
- you have been competitive most of the season, including being ahead in the 4th in 7 games, and including knocking over GWS and the Swans, and if you want to gild the lily, the Hawks as well.

In conclusion :

NO PP FOR YOU !!