Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

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Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #105 – March 11, 2014, 10:00:22 am

We beat Freo by 70 points in last year's pre-season comp, see how both teams fared in 2013.
There are some glaring deficiencies in our forward line, but as someone mentioned earlier, with the delivery the way it was even Tony Lockett would have struggled to get a goal.
It's not the end of the world, let the team structure settle as it would in the season proper (especially in the mid) and then make judgement.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #106 – March 11, 2014, 10:21:14 am

Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on March 11, 2014, 09:58:19 am

Quote from: Thryleon on March 11, 2014, 09:42:41 am
Even with Fev in the side, you have to eliminate Henderson as a contributer which means at worst a small gain in profficiency with a major negative defensively.

Hendo had his breakout season last year, he had given us nowhere near the output of Fev prior to that and even last year he didn't come close to Fev at his best. Fev was a gamebreaker in the real sense of the word. He could kick you 4-5 goals in a quarter and win the game off his own boot. Hendo is well off that ATM but does promise plenty. Here's hoping.......

@LLT

I reckon we wouldn't have taken him had he told us he needed a year to evaluate the list either. That said, we did have one of our greatest finals victories ever last year so I'm willing to give him a chance for sure.

Henderson's back half of the ground stuff in the second half of 2011 was top shelf Carrots and the only reason why we did so well is because Jamison was in top form until round 14, where he went down injured against West Coast (only played in one more win for the season against the Bombers in the EF), and Henderson held up the backline key position pretty much on his own after that.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/M/Michael_Jamison.html

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/L/Lachie_Henderson.html

Without Henderson, we would have struggled to finish the year in the 8 as Jamo was gone from rounds 15-21 and thats when Hendo came to the fore as a really good backman.

Our forwardline pulled everyone's pants down except the serious teams as it was multi faceted and mobile. You add Fevola that year, and we might have gone higher but you have to take Henderson out, and that leaves us with a backline consisting of Brett Thornton and not much else as key defenders. We would have been struggling.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #107 – March 11, 2014, 10:31:53 am

Quote from: Thryleon on March 11, 2014, 10:21:14 am

You add Fevola that year

Fev didn't play a game in 2011 (I think, was sacked before the season started?) and played 2010 with Brisbane. Think we count our blessings that we got Lauchie rather than considering what if Fev had played because I dont think he would have.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #108 – March 11, 2014, 10:58:55 am

Quote from: PassIt2Carrots on March 11, 2014, 09:58:19 am

Quote from: Thryleon on March 11, 2014, 09:42:41 am
Even with Fev in the side, you have to eliminate Henderson as a contributer which means at worst a small gain in profficiency with a major negative defensively.

Hendo had his breakout season last year, he had given us nowhere near the output of Fev prior to that and even last year he didn't come close to Fev at his best. Fev was a gamebreaker in the real sense of the word. He could kick you 4-5 goals in a quarter and win the game off his own boot. Hendo is well off that ATM but does promise plenty. Here's hoping.......

@LLT

I reckon we wouldn't have taken him had he told us he needed a year to evaluate the list either. That said, we did have one of our greatest finals victories ever last year so I'm willing to give him a chance for sure.

We just don't know what MM's brief was when he started with us. Even those both in and out of the club with the bluest of glasses surely realised that we had to do a lot of work on our list and that it would take some time. There has been much strident criticism on here about our past recruitment and development and if that was all true then it would surely be reflected in the quality of our list?

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #109 – March 11, 2014, 11:24:30 am

Quote from: cookie2 on March 11, 2014, 10:58:55 am

We just don't know what MM's brief was when he started with us. Even those both in and out of the club with the bluest of glasses surely realised that we had to do a lot of work on our list and that it would take some time.

Whilst it's possible that the comments coming out of the club were to keep the faithful interested, it is more likely that the club thought they were on track for a flag and just needed a few tweaks to get there. Everything points to that.

Personally, I think it just goes to show just how great a player Chris Judd is/was - the club's fortunes have been pretty much in step with his.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #110 – March 11, 2014, 12:09:28 pm

Quote from: ItsOurTime on March 11, 2014, 10:31:53 am

Quote from: Thryleon on March 11, 2014, 10:21:14 am
You add Fevola that year

Fev didn't play a game in 2011 (I think, was sacked before the season started?) and played 2010 with Brisbane. Think we count our blessings that we got Lauchie rather than considering what if Fev had played because I dont think he would have.

Which is exactly what I was saying to Carrots, thankyou for echoing my sentiment.

As for why we are paying Malthouse a million, for me the answer is simple.

We needed a strong figure who knew his way a football department and could tell us exactly where it was all going wrong.

Dont think of us recruiting Malthouse for a tilt at a flag. Thats just wishful thinking (which I was guilty of also). The reality is, that we turned to someone who is old hat in terms of instilling the culture required to get to the top end of the ladder and compete there continuously. Largely, whether or not you win the big dance is as much to do with downright fortune, as it is careful and methodical planning, and that is exactly what we are paying 1 million per year for.

Sure, we could have gone the route of the untested coach, or we could have stuck fat with Ratten, but at the end of the day, we went the road that looks to be the one that is transforming our football department. The one thing we can see, is that things are definately different.

According to Einstein's theory, the definition of insanity is to repeat the same process and expect different results. From the appointment of Andrew Mckay it appears as though the club is systematically going through each layer of our football club and seeing where we are deficient and making changes. Some will be for the better, some will not and go the opposite direction. I am comfortable seeing Malthouse in charge, as he knows how to assemble a department of blokes that know\have what it takes, and that is proven by the amount of Collingwood people that are well respected throughout the competition. More than one of his assistants have moved on to senior roles, with varying degrees of success.

Given we didnt seem to know where our problems were (developement, scouting, recruitment, coaching, game plan etc) an experienced operator was required. Given the other options, Im happy to have Malthouse, and the money we are spending on his wages are an afterthought for me. Its not like we can better use those funds elsewhere aside from debt demolition. May as well get someone who can help us review our overall operation and hopefully use his opinion to progress the brand of the Carlton Football Club and get it back to contender again.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #111 – March 11, 2014, 01:09:31 pm

@Thry, I don't think that's why Malthouse was brought in.

If he comes in and finds the place is a circus and needs to be cleaned up then that's the point where we need to step back and re-assess. The club still talks about premierships, it won't say "rebuild" let alone the entire place is in dire straits and needs sorting out. Certainly, nobody in management has been held to account for any structural disasters.

I would also be concerned at Mick being given this responsibility, it really isn't his role to sort that sort of stuff out. He has been in clubs which have had wonderful support and near limitless resources. That's not us, his experience doesn't align well with that and all our eggs are in the Malthouse basket.

Sure, make the investment to improve but give the right people the right responsibilities and hold them to account for the outcomes.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #112 – March 11, 2014, 01:21:04 pm

@Thry

Tend to share this view myself. MM is a coach/consultant if you like. The club, especially the footy dept, was in a mess after years of being run into the ground for all the reasons we are familiar with. Ratts unfortunately, just didn't have enough experience or force of personality to fix it - enter MM.

Yes, the ultimate goal is obviously to win a premiership as soon as possible. But I think that all at the club, especially the power brokers, realise that there is no quick fix. It will take patience, hard work and expertise.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #113 – March 11, 2014, 02:22:34 pm

Quote from: ItsOurTime on March 11, 2014, 01:09:31 pm

@Thry, I don't think that's why Malthouse was brought in.

If he comes in and finds the place is a circus and needs to be cleaned up then that's the point where we need to step back and re-assess. The club still talks about premierships, it won't say "rebuild" let alone the entire place is in dire straits and needs sorting out. Certainly, nobody in management has been held to account for any structural disasters.

I would also be concerned at Mick being given this responsibility, it really isn't his role to sort that sort of stuff out. He has been in clubs which have had wonderful support and near limitless resources. That's not us, his experience doesn't align well with that and all our eggs are in the Malthouse basket.

Sure, make the investment to improve but give the right people the right responsibilities and hold them to account for the outcomes.

No club interested in making the most of itself talks about rebuilding. Its all about establishing a winning culture, without the need to bottom out.

The mentality you are alluding to re rebuilding is largely defeatist. We need to believe we are good enough to be at the big dance (and frankly we are not that far off) but we are in need of some overhaul.

FWIW, I would have been more pessimistic about someone guaranteeing you success. That reeks of arrogance. The Hawks have had the benefit of one of the best lists in the AFL since about 2008 and even they took about 5 bites at the cherry to lockaway an eventual 2nd premiership since that time. We have been also rans, and looking at our list, have the tag of promise, and looked like world beaters for a solitary few rounds during that same period.

Anyone guaranteeing you success is probably more salesman than coach. I think you are (rightly so) a little bit miffed, that you have been misled by the statements of our footy club and I was too, until I accepted what I can see in front of me. We are simply not as good as we think we were. There is no harm in that. We just need to embrace it, and work at improving it.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #114 – March 11, 2014, 05:12:37 pm

Really? Talking about fev again??

*sigh*

Bring on the first bounce!

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #115 – March 11, 2014, 05:51:34 pm

Quote from: Thryleon on March 11, 2014, 02:22:34 pm

Quote from: ItsOurTime on March 11, 2014, 01:09:31 pm
@Thry, I don't think that's why Malthouse was brought in.

If he comes in and finds the place is a circus and needs to be cleaned up then that's the point where we need to step back and re-assess. The club still talks about premierships, it won't say "rebuild" let alone the entire place is in dire straits and needs sorting out. Certainly, nobody in management has been held to account for any structural disasters.

I would also be concerned at Mick being given this responsibility, it really isn't his role to sort that sort of stuff out. He has been in clubs which have had wonderful support and near limitless resources. That's not us, his experience doesn't align well with that and all our eggs are in the Malthouse basket.

Sure, make the investment to improve but give the right people the right responsibilities and hold them to account for the outcomes.

No club interested in making the most of itself talks about rebuilding. Its all about establishing a winning culture, without the need to bottom out.

The mentality you are alluding to re rebuilding is largely defeatist. We need to believe we are good enough to be at the big dance (and frankly we are not that far off) but we are in need of some overhaul.

FWIW, I would have been more pessimistic about someone guaranteeing you success. That reeks of arrogance. The Hawks have had the benefit of one of the best lists in the AFL since about 2008 and even they took about 5 bites at the cherry to lockaway an eventual 2nd premiership since that time. We have been also rans, and looking at our list, have the tag of promise, and looked like world beaters for a solitary few rounds during that same period.

Anyone guaranteeing you success is probably more salesman than coach. I think you are (rightly so) a little bit miffed, that you have been misled by the statements of our footy club and I was too, until I accepted what I can see in front of me. We are simply not as good as we think we were. There is no harm in that. We just need to embrace it, and work at improving it.

This is dancing around the issue with respect. I know its early in the season, but I have already stated based on my own analysis we unfortunately will not make the 8 this year.

The position is clear: if Carlton do not make the 8 this year, there will be a huge bust up at years end.

The Club has simply run out of excuses. These excuses include: (1) list is young (2) list has injuries (3) Coach inexperienced (4) Interstate Final (5) Home Final (6) Clubs 2003 penalties etc.... We have had 18 years with no Premiership and the Board's time is well and truly up. If Carlton do not make the 8, any excuses the Club makes will be just words......

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #116 – March 11, 2014, 06:26:02 pm

Any side that has around 15 first round draft picks running around - with around 11 of them being top 10 (plus a FS with Waite who would have been a 1st rounder) and cannot make the 8 must be seriously under-performing. 'Der, thanks Baggers for stating the bloomin' obvious! Look out Mensa!!!'

Easily, 9-10 of these 1st round draft picks are introverted. Trouble. Why? Way outa balance. Yep, bangin' that drum again.

We would be the most poorly performing club when you look at the number of 'stars' we have.

Our list starts off looking terrific then to drops off real quick. MM wants 30 to pick from (to carry through an entire season, winning... a challenging for September success). With us, he'd be lucky to have 24. Coupla injuries... knackered.

As some of us have identified previously, this must reflect badly on development.

As some of us have identified previously, this must reflect badly on recruiting the right blokes to support the 'stars.'

I'd be amazed if MM doesn't realise what he's inherited. Our recruiting last year indicated getting a bit more mongrel/size/flexibility into the place. And may take awhile to get a few more.

MM has also stated he wants to leave the place in better shape than when he arrived... gonna need to turnover more boys. Might have to lose some 'nice' boys to get a bit more 'Grunt (plug for NBs sponsor

)' into the place.

Right, wrong, good, bad... doesn't matter, point is extroverts take to leadership easier than introverts. Doesn't mean they're better, just means they take to it easier.

Leadership, leadership, leadership. More of it needed throughout the club.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #117 – March 11, 2014, 11:01:57 pm

Winston Churchill was an introvert :-)

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #118 – March 12, 2014, 12:50:54 am

Quote from: Thryleon on March 11, 2014, 02:22:34 pm

Anyone guaranteeing you success is probably more salesman than coach. I think you are (rightly so) a little bit miffed, that you have been misled by the statements of our footy club and I was too, until I accepted what I can see in front of me. We are simply not as good as we think we were. There is no harm in that. We just need to embrace it, and work at improving it.

That's cool Thry but it's not that we aren't as good as we thought. It's that no one is held to account. I asked the board member who came on here about how he planned to implement the blueprint, how they're tracking and how they'd know they are on track to meet their goals and nothing but fluff.

The problem is very clear to me. The board is unable to get those under them to implement their vision. Instead, they throw their will out there and expect it to magically happen because, well just because they're successful and that must mean they're not the issue here. Well, their vision hasn't been implemented and now they''ve brought in Mick and they hope he can fix everything.

If he can't, and his experience is in building great teams, not footy departments, we're screwed and back in the wilderness. We are far too exposed to risk IMO.

Re: Blues V Bulldogs @ Princes Park (Friday Arvo Match)

Reply #119 – March 12, 2014, 09:15:41 am

Agreed IOT. The thing is though, until they implement the vision, how can they answer your questions?

Sometimes these sorts of plans are very broad and wide sweeping with not much they can say to you without being transparent. At the time you asked (I think it was Raphael Germinder) Ratten was still the senior coach. How do we know that reviewing his performance and making a decision on his coaching future wasnt one of the things required?

At the end of the day, these guys need to act as salesmen first, as they need to ensure that they protect the brand whilst doing what it takes (making the hard calls) to achieve whatever is laid out in the Blue print (which in itself I saw as a bit of a strategic plan, and as far as Im concerned, strategic plans are not worth the paper they are written on).