:-\He's in his third year now (though his first he was probably never destined to play). Looking at Casboult on the tv the other night, it looks like he's peaked and won't be the focal point we need him to be. If Harry is fit and strong he needs to be in so we can find out if he is any good, and we need to persist with him for a while. Give him a six game run and see what he does. He gets his chance and (hopefully) he is on the end of better delivery so he can shine.
I've no ideas about his second efforts , work ethic etc.
thoughts?
Um I just saw that McKay came up in a different thread recently. Same point was being made. Sorry for the double up.
Um I just saw that McKay came up in a different thread recently. Same point was being made. Sorry for the double up.
No problem...Let's run it as a separate thread for a couple of days.
See whether other folks have an opinion.
For mine...I'd like to see him play a game or two at VFL level and get a bag or two before we promote him. When we do I agree that he should be given a string of games (4-6)
However if Kreuzer doesn't come up we may find he's in the side ;)
He needs to show some form at VFL level I think, he's done nothing at this stage to justify getting a game. I really hope he kicks 4 or 5 a couple of weeks in a row and starts knocking the door down to get a game!
I was in favour of keeping him in the team despite his poor performances in the JLT games. However, I’m more than happy to concede that Bolts and co are much better judges of where Harry is at and what is best for his development.
I thought Casboult did OK on Thursday in keeping Rance relatively quiet and stepping up when required to shoulder the ruck duties. I don’t think Harry is anywhere near taking on those burdens.
I wouldn’t mind Harry getting a run in the first 22, provided that he earns his place and is playing alongside Levi rather than instead of.
I thought Casboult did OK on Thursday in keeping Rance relatively quiet
Yeah and Gary Ablett did okay keeping Steven Silvagni quiet in the 1995 Grand Final.
Kerr has started to show something at VFL level, however is not yet ready for promotion. Harry McKay likewise has shown glimpses but not anything consistently.
Kerr could play as a second tall and offers run and pressure inside 50, Mckay is more ruck relief if not playing forward, I just don't think he's physically ready for that yet at AFL level.
What do others think?
I was in favour of keeping him in the team despite his poor performances in the JLT games. However, I’m more than happy to concede that Bolts and co are much better judges of where Harry is at and what is best for his development.
I thought Casboult did OK on Thursday in keeping Rance relatively quiet and stepping up when required to shoulder the ruck duties. I don’t think Harry is anywhere near taking on those burdens.
I wouldn’t mind Harry getting a run in the first 22, provided that he earns his place and is playing alongside Levi rather than instead of.
X2
Yeah and Gary Ablett did okay keeping Steven Silvagni quiet in the 1995 Grand Final.
That's right up there with some of your great pearls of wisdom MBB ;)
For the record, Rance had 15 disposals and 3 marks. That's significantly below his averages, particularly with his marking which, as I'm sure you know, is his strength. Casboult had 10 disposals, 4 marks and 19 hitouts. I'd call that a win for us :)
Casboult had one disposal inside 50, Rance gave him a bath.
Casboult had one disposal inside 50, Rance gave him a bath.
So Rance isn't responsible for the possessions Levi gets outside 50?
I just watched the first quarter again and I'm more than happy to watch the rest of the game to confirm that my recollections are correct.
In the first quarter Casboult blocked Rance's run, allowing Curnow to mark and goal. Casboult then brought the ball to ground for Curnow's second goal.
Casboult spent some time in the ruck, winning 5 centre bounces and a boundary throw in. While that was happening, Rance got a very soft free kick. He then took a good mark over Casboult.
Casboult then got a break on Rance but the delivery was poor and fell short of Casboult's lead. Rance got a handpass and followed it up with a shocker that went directly to Lamb for a goal to Garlett.
So, in the first quarter Casboult was instrumental in two goals, won 6 ruck contests, and was let down by a poor kick. Rance had one mark, two kicks and two handpasses, one of which resulted directly in a goal to us. Who was the better player
I know that you love to pump up the performances of opposition players MBB but you're challenging reality with this line of argument ::)
Harry needs more time in the VFL first.
He gave us a couple glimpses of potential in 2017, but has done very little so far this season.
A few good VFL games and then bring him up maybe.
Right now I think Kerr has gone past him.
Harry needs more time in the VFL first.
He gave us a couple glimpses of potential in 2017, but has done very little so far this season.
A few good VFL games and then bring him up maybe.
Right now I think Kerr has gone past him.
Past him? Based on what output exactly and when the NBs season hasn't even started?
That's silly.
But yes, Harry needs to perform this season....
So Rance isn't responsible for the possessions Levi gets outside 50?
I just watched the first quarter again and I'm more than happy to watch the rest of the game to confirm that my recollections are correct.
In the first quarter Casboult blocked Rance's run, allowing Curnow to mark and goal. Casboult then brought the ball to ground for Curnow's second goal.
Casboult spent some time in the ruck, winning 5 centre bounces and a boundary throw in. While that was happening, Rance got a very soft free kick. He then took a good mark over Casboult.
Casboult then got a break on Rance but the delivery was poor and fell short of Casboult's lead. Rance got a handpass and followed it up with a shocker that went directly to Lamb for a goal to Garlett.
So, in the first quarter Casboult was instrumental in two goals, won 6 ruck contests, and was let down by a poor kick. Rance had one mark, two kicks and two handpasses, one of which resulted directly in a goal to us. Who was the better player
I know that you love to pump up the performances of opposition players MBB but you're challenging reality with this line of argument ::)
Casboult had zero possessions in the first quarter. ZERO. You're the one that needs to come back to reality.
Levi came into the game half way through the 3rd term when he went full time into the ruck while Kreuzer was injured.
Past him? Based on what output exactly and when the NBs season hasn't even started?
That's silly.
But yes, Harry needs to perform this season....
I haven't attended any NB practice games but friends tell me Kerr has looked pretty good in the practice matches despite just returning from injury and needing to build his fitness. Although I believe Kerr only played partial game time, but then apparently McKay, Phillips and De Koning also only played partial game time.
Obviously Kerr is not an AFL level ruck option, despite rucking in the VFL last season. But I'd also prefer McKay not to ruck given his recent history of stress related injuries, he needs to stick to the KPP stuff for a season or so. Like Sansmere I hope McKay eventually comes into the seniors after a bag of at least 4 or 5 VFL goals, arrive in AFL with some VFL confidence! We saw last season how doing this benefited Jones.
For VFL Rnd 1 we should have a super-side, Rowe, ACoS, Williamson, Shaw, Philips, Lang and Lobbe are all expected back from injury.
We've really got to stop pumping up Levi's tyres, he's the best of a bad lot at Carlton but in reality he's just not much good.
He had one touch before half time on Thursday night and we were running on top of the ground in the first half, it's nowhere near what's required from a senior player.
Play McKay and see what comes of it I reckon, we've signed him for four years so let's see if our judgement matches reality.
We've really got to stop pumping up Levi's tyres, he's the best of a bad lot at Carlton but in reality he's just not much good.
He had one touch before half time on Thursday night and we were running on top of the ground in the first half, it's nowhere near what's required from a senior player.
Play McKay and see what comes of it I reckon, we've signed him for four years so let's see if our judgement matches reality.
And yet SOS has had 3 chances to cull him and hasn't.....
In SOS I trust.
And Harry ain't a ruckman...
And Harry ain't a ruckman...
Not yet, and we shouldn't rush him into the center square, but he does take some ruck duties in F50.
However, I would also question the value of McKay taking ruck duties inside F50, a unique part of his game is his mobility and clean hands at ground level, not something 200cm types normally exhibit. We'd be better off if he was roving the stoppage!
And Harry ain't a ruckman...
Neither is Levi.
As I said, he's the best of a bad lot at Carlton but McKay might at least develop into a good footballer given the opportunity, it's obvious now that Levi won't.
If SpecialK isn't fit it will almost certainly be Phillips or Lobbe that come in, probably Phillips seeing he's played part of a VFL practice match.
I would not really be happy about bringing in Harry as primarily our ruckman. I would want him to be given a chance in the main role we hope he will eventually fill, if indeed he comes in at all.
I would not really be happy about bringing in Harry as primarily our ruckman. I would want him to be given a chance in the main role we hope he will eventually fill, if indeed he comes in at all.
x2....Its a pity Lobbe is injured and Philips underdone........Witts is a big unit and probably needs a tag team to wear him down,
Maybe Casboult does 80% of the ruckwork and interchanges with Harry who does the rest...
We need competition for Witts and a break even would be a win, going to get a couple of good players back are the Suns and Dew is going to have a honeymoon period, this might be a tough game.
@EB
I am probably going along on Sat and I am expecting a tough game.
We've really got to stop pumping up Levi's tyres, he's the best of a bad lot at Carlton but in reality he's just not much good.
He had one touch before half time on Thursday night and we were running on top of the ground in the first half, it's nowhere near what's required from a senior player.
Play McKay and see what comes of it I reckon, we've signed him for four years so let's see if our judgement matches reality.
We've really got to stop assessing Levi only in the context of the negatives.
I.e. ignore his 19 hitouts, 4 marks, 1 goal and extremely effective negating impact on Rance - because he didn't get them in the time period of the match that I deem relevant.... madness.
The area of the ground that was most efficient last Thursday night was the forward line. We got a great return off a minimal number of entries. Yes SOSOS and Cas are singled out for criticism. Both were selflessly following coaches instructions to pull Rance out of the play.
I suspect the coaches would have been extremely happy with them.
Also, watch the replay and keep track of how many times we kicked to Levi vs. Rance and put the ball to Rance's advantage.
Casboult = Forward
Rance = Defender
If Kreuzer is out and they bring in McKay to allow Casboult to ruck, are we prepared to see Charlie getting smashed by the likes of Steven May, Kade Kolodjashnij or Rory Thompson in the second game of the season?
Because none of them will bother standing McKay at the moment, his form doesn't warrant the attention!
I agree with DJC, while Casboult's form wasn't great, he did play the decoy forward role very well.
Anyway it might be all academic, if Casboult strikes Witts in the same ruck form we probably won't be worrying too much about fast forward breaks, Witts just made Goldstein look like a 2nd banana!
There is a triplet of comparisons that seem to get to the point on this issue.
Which I'd like to support with some very basic Sesame Street logic,
| (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Todd_Goldstein_2017.1.jpg/800px-Todd_Goldstein_2017.1.jpg) | (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Levi_Casboult_2017.2.jpg) | (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Jarrod_Witts_2017.2.jpg/800px-Jarrod_Witts_2017.2.jpg) |
One of these things does not belong
Can you tell which thing is not like the other
By the final siren song!Sorry,(https://thediplomaticwhore.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/tweety-pie-im-a-bad-little-boy.jpg?w=730)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/31/f6/cd/31f6cd1f993aa524ea008fb1539fac1f--tweety-bird-quotes-pinterest-funny.jpg)
I've been a real Davina today!
From the VFL review....I suspect he had limited game time as they tried to rotate players...but he probably needs to show a bit more before he displaces anyone in the senior side.
Harry McKay
Stats: 8 disposals, 3 marks, 2 inside 50s
From the coach: Harry shared his time forward with a number of key talls, where he managed to get himself in a number of positions to mark the ball but couldn’t hang on. The pleasing thing was the amount of contests he got to and we want him to keep playing with that presence.
@EB
I am probably going along on Sat and I am expecting a tough game.
I might wander along too Cookie...we went to the corresponding game last season where Lynch destroyed us so I am hoping we learned something... :-\
x2....Its a pity Lobbe is injured and Philips underdone........Witts is a big unit and probably needs a tag team to wear him down,
Maybe Casboult does 80% of the ruckwork and interchanges with Harry who does the rest...
We need competition for Witts and a break even would be a win, going to get a couple of good players back are the Suns and Dew is going to have a honeymoon period, this might be a tough game.
Actually. if Kreuzer is out, I'd ruck Casboult as he is starting to actually look like a ruckman now, and bring in Kerr, who apparently had 23 touches, 5 or 6 mark and 2 goals. He might be a touch ahead of Harry right now.
Actually. if Kreuzer is out, I'd ruck Casboult as he is starting to actually look like a ruckman now, and bring in Kerr, who apparently had 23 touches, 5 or 6 mark and 2 goals. He might be a touch ahead of Harry right now.
Patrick Kerr
Stats: 9 disposals, 6 marks (3 inside 50), 2 goals
From the coach: It was an encouraging game from Patty: his work-rate was high, he took a nice contested mark and got his hands to a few other opportunities while kicking two goals. His game is starting to round off well.
I like what I see of Kerr, decent size and has some good skills...neither him or Harry are tearing it up but Kerr might be one if he can get a few games might fastrack his game a bit quicker.
Did see him ruck a bit when we got injuries last season and he competed ok...
After 8 touches and no score in the ressies McKay won't be getting a game this week.
It's his third year and he must have had a pre-season to play both JLT games, he'll need to start showing something sooner rather than later.
Harry needs to show consistent good form in the Magoos, form that demands promotion.
Agreed on McKay. Of all the write ups expect Cunningham to come in.
Very encouraging.
How would ASOS go as a forward? Has some speed, good strength and a competitor.
Not this week barbs, slight Hammy apparently
Not this week barbs, slight Hammy apparently
But after that and he's right to go?
Casboult had zero possessions in the first quarter. ZERO. You're the one that needs to come back to reality.
Levi came into the game half way through the 3rd term when he went full time into the ruck while Kreuzer was injured.
Just to remind you of your original comment:
Casboult had one disposal inside 50, Rance gave him a bath.
I have now watched the second quarter replay.
A kick inside 50 to Casboult and Rance results in the ball going out of bounds - no mark to Rance.
Casboult gets a boundary throw in hitout.
Casboult has a very soft free kick awarded against him.
Casboult brings the ball down in a marking contest, receives a handpass but has his kick smothered.
Casboult gathers a loose ball but is tackled.
Casboult wins a centre bounce.
Rance spoils Silvagni.
Casboult wins three consecutive boundary throw ins.
Rance spoils Casboult but it was arguably a free to Casboult,
Casboult brings the ball down to E Curnow.
Rance intercepts a pass to Casboult.
Casboult brings the ball down to Silvagni but Richmond rush a behind.
Rance marks a short kick in and gets his first kick for the quarter.
I'm more than happy to move on to the third quarter MBB but I'm yet to see any evidence of Rance giving anyone a bath. So far, the All Australian defender and captain has had a very ordinary game against Casboult and Silvagni; two players who some supporters reckon had shockers.
I know that spectators see things differently but you'd have to be dreaming if you think that Rance gave Casboult a bath.
I guess so, don’t see him as a defensive forward myself. I think we need to develop young talent there (and all over) and only revert to the acos types when desperate
Casboult has now had 2 disposals in a half. Keep going DJC, awesome work.
The good part will be when Levi actually starts to get a few touches when Rance isn't his opponent. Sorry for the spoilers.
Patrick Kerr
Stats: 9 disposals, 6 marks (3 inside 50), 2 goals
From the coach: It was an encouraging game from Patty: his work-rate was high, he took a nice contested mark and got his hands to a few other opportunities while kicking two goals. His game is starting to round off well.
I like what I see of Kerr, decent size and has some good skills...neither him or Harry are tearing it up but Kerr might be one if he can get a few games might fastrack his game a bit quicker.
Did see him ruck a bit when we got injuries last season and he competed ok...
Yes, I read the wrong thing. It was 9. Cunningham was the one with 23. Oops.
Kerr's just starting his 2nd year. I was very impressed last year.
Casboult has now had 2 disposals in a half. Keep going DJC, awesome work.
The good part will be when Levi actually starts to get a few touches when Rance isn't his opponent. Sorry for the spoilers.
So far Rance has had two marks, three kicks and two handpasses, and one of those resulted in a goal to us.
Casboult has had 10 hitouts and has brought the ball to ground in our forward line on four occasions.
I suspect that Rance will accumulate most of his possessions when Casboult spends more time in the ruck, but don't let that spoil your adoration for blokes who play for other teams MBB.
But after that and he's right to go?
They think two to three weeks!
I think it is too hard to judge a forward's form based on VFL - different level of footy with average delivery played on windswept, smaller ovals.
I think Harry and Levi need each other. They will provide options and will make the long inside 50 approach less obvious. And it will also mean that our forward line won't be completely toothless when Levi does his share of the rucking. Charlie will be up forward on occasion, but I think he is destined to spend more time further up the field.
Levi has spent most of his career as the only marking option in the forward 50, and has generally had to deal with 2 or 3 defenders each time, because they all knew that was where the ball was going. My one fervent hope is that he can put together 2 or 3 'Earl Spalding' years and give our younger forwards the time to develop.
I think Harry and Levi need each other.
Like Stan and Slim Shady! :o
Has the tea gone cold?
I think it is too hard to judge a forward's form based on VFL - different level of footy with average delivery played on windswept, smaller ovals.
I think Harry and Levi need each other. They will provide options and will make the long inside 50 approach less obvious. And it will also mean that our forward line won't be completely toothless when Levi does his share of the rucking. Charlie will be up forward on occasion, but I think he is destined to spend more time further up the field.
Levi has spent most of his career as the only marking option in the forward 50, and has generally had to deal with 2 or 3 defenders each time, because they all knew that was where the ball was going. My one fervent hope is that he can put together 2 or 3 'Earl Spalding' years and give our younger forwards the time to develop.
Stop posting rational assessments Tonyo; it upsets those who, for whatever reason, are unhappy when our team does OK.
Casboult has a very soft free kick awarded against him.
Which seems to be a pattern with Levi, as of today his free count stands at 67 for and 95 against.
People have been known to compare Levi with Tom Hawkins on this board, as of today Hawkins' free count stands at 212 for and 206 against, Jack Riewoldt's is 222 for and 209 against, Josh Kennedy is going at 234 for and 216 against.
Logically a key forward should receive more frees than he concedes, but this doesn't seem to be the case with Levi.
Logically a key forward should receive more frees than he concedes, but this doesn't seem to be the case with Levi.
He doesn't take front position, most of the frees forwards get, or rucks floating forward, come from over the shoulder high contact or out of position defenders holding.
You don't get them when you jump from the side or behind.
You must do the hard stuff to be rewarded.
He doesn't take front position,
And let's face it he's a bit clumsy.
He'll get his name on a locker at Princes Park anyway so good on him, it's more than I've done.
And let's face it he's a bit clumsy.
He'll get his name on a locker at Princes Park anyway so good on him, it's more than I've done.
Agreed.
He's a Carlton man who is about to play a hundred games, he has worked hard to improve and I think he's getting the best out of himself that he can.
That is all we can ask until from any individual.
Agreed.
He's a Carlton man who is about to play a hundred games, he has and worked hard to improve and I think he's getting the best out of himself that he can.
That is all we can ask until from any individual.
Absolutely!
So far Rance has had two marks, three kicks and two handpasses, and one of those resulted in a goal to us.
Casboult has had 10 hitouts and has brought the ball to ground in our forward line on four occasions.
I suspect that Rance will accumulate most of his possessions when Casboult spends more time in the ruck, but don't let that spoil your adoration for blokes who play for other teams MBB.
SOS had 8 disposals in the 95 Grand Final. Ablett must have done a great job according to you.
Harry should get a game or 2, VFL form is far from convincing one way or another.
Delivery would be substandard.
Grounds are substandard.
even the amount of develivery could be substandard.
Get him in the 1's, give him at least a couple of weeks and reassess.
As for Patty Kerr, if he is up and about, he could replace Jack. Similar players IMO.
Harry should get a game or 2, VFL form is far from convincing one way or another.
Delivery would be substandard.
Grounds are substandard.
even the amount of develivery could be substandard.
Get him in the 1's, give him at least a couple of weeks and reassess.
As for Patty Kerr, if he is up and about, he could replace Jack. Similar players IMO.
Tend to agree. We have to try and press on with him and give him a go when a spot is available.
If we use that criteria though ...everyone should get a game.
In his senior appearances so far Harry has shown glimpses but only glimpses.
If Kreuzer doesn't come up maybe he gets a chance...otherwise he stays in the VFL
Would feel a bit like clutching at straws to give Harry a game based on his exposed form. Hope he has a couple of good games in the vfl, then bring him in
If we use that criteria though ...everyone should get a game.
In his senior appearances so far Harry has shown glimpses but only glimpses.
If Kreuzer doesn't come up maybe he gets a chance...otherwise he stays in the VFL
If Kreuz and Levi are available then fair comment - but I would give Harry a go if either were not available.
If we use that criteria though ...everyone should get a game.
In his senior appearances so far Harry has shown glimpses but only glimpses.
If Kreuzer doesn't come up maybe he gets a chance...otherwise he stays in the VFL
Its from a team need point of view.
SPS last year played R1 but he hadn't played a JLT game and obviously had no other exposed form to go by being a new draftee. He played...and played and played. It worked. He was required due to a shortage of mids who could play.
We have a shortage of key forwards who can hit the scoreboard. What have we got to lose? A game?
Its from a team need point of view.
SPS last year played R1 but he hadn't played a JLT game and obviously had no other exposed form to go by being a new draftee. He played...and played and played. It worked. He was required due to a shortage of mids who could play.
We have a shortage of key forwards who can hit the scoreboard. What have we got to lose? A game?
SPS was our round one draft pick...he didn't play JLT last year because he was injured.
McKay has played seniors...he wasn't considered up to a round one spot.
He may get a game but it will probably be due to an injury.
Hopefully he grabs his chance.
Is anyone else getting a slightly uneasy feeling that McKay might be the new Kristian Jaksch ? I know it's early days, but all the talk worries me a little.......
Is anyone else getting a slightly uneasy feeling that McKay might be the new Kristian Jaksch ? I know it's early days, but all the talk worries me a little.......
I'm not overly concerned yet as big KPP's often take a while...but it would have been nice to see him demanding a spot first up.
Hopefully we'll look back at the end of the season and there will be a handy 20-25 goal haul alongside his name.
I'm not overly concerned yet as big KPP's often take a while...but it would have been nice to see him demanding a spot first up.
Hopefully we'll look back at the end of the season and there will be a handy 20-25 goal haul alongside his name.
I hope you're right. When you've been burnt by Watson (lack of intensity), Jaksch (lack of intensity), McKay (maybe lack of intensity), one may be excused for feeling a little jumpy.
Is anyone else getting a slightly uneasy feeling that McKay might be the new Kristian Jaksch ? I know it's early days, but all the talk worries me a little.......
McKay has at least had stress fractures which shows he's putting the work in.
The others never even broke a fingernail (openly) and had all had serious doubts over their ability to "make it" unlike harry.
I hope you're right. When you've been burnt by Watson (lack of intensity), Jaksch (lack of intensity), McKay (maybe lack of intensity), one may be excused for feeling a little jumpy.
I've been known to jump early sometiimes, but fecking shizen hell where did that sh1te come from?
Is anyone else getting a slightly uneasy feeling that McKay might be the new Kristian Jaksch ? I know it's early days, but all the talk worries me a little.......
Well I'll certainly be very happy to see Harry starting to show something but it's very early days and your unease is likely a bit premature imo. We are probably a bit haunted by some of our previous disappointments with KPFs.
I hope you're right. When you've been burnt by Watson (lack of intensity), Jaksch (lack of intensity), McKay (maybe lack of intensity), one may be excused for feeling a little jumpy.
Bit of pressure on Harry to be the KP Forward messiah, he has a laconic style that makes him look a bit lacking in intensity but he reminds me a lot of Travis Cloke who had a similar look
and copped it from Pies fans. I think Harry has the goods to be a important player for us but its a waiting game and like Cloke, Joe Daniher etc it probably takes 3 years plus before they start delivering and remembering Harry's first season was a write off...
Hmm, perhaps you blokes are right. I was hoping to see more of him than I currently have. I'm still in favour of giving him a block of games in the seniors just to see how he goes. His form in the 2's, from what I read on here, has not been that great. Maybe he just needs a jump start, or maybe he's one of those players that just plays better in the 1's. Either way, we're not learning anything much keeping him in the ressies.
I'm not overly concerned yet as big KPP's often take a while...but it would have been nice to see him demanding a spot first up.
Hopefully we'll look back at the end of the season and there will be a handy 20-25 goal haul alongside his name.
I'm not too worried about Harry either yet.
It may be 2019 before he really starts to fire. A season in the VFL won't hurt him
anyway.
Maybe a few games towards the end of the season. Specially if we are not in finals contention.
I'm not too worried about Harry either yet.
It may be 2019 before he really starts to fire. A season in the VFL won't hurt him
anyway.
Maybe a few games towards the end of the season. Specially if we are not in finals contention.
Agreed.
All these 200cm types are typically 23 or 24 before they fire up.
Even "Superstars" like Lynch, people seem to talk about him like he's only been around 3 or 4 years, but it was 3 or 4 years before most even noticed him and he's in his 8th season now! :o
Why would Carlton fans bitch about McKay who because of injury is effectively in his 2nd season?
Agreed.
All these 200cm types are typically 23 or 24 before they fire up.
Even "Superstars" like Lynch, people seem to talk about him like he's only been around 3 or 4 years, but it was 3 or 4 years before most even noticed him and he's in his 8th season now! :o
Why would Carlton fans bitch about McKay who because of injury is effectively in his 2nd season?
Yep. Spot on.
Time.
Yep. Spot on.
Time.
Same applies to Weitering and SoJ doesn't it!
The Flubbo article he wrote about SoJ the other day was some real sh1te stirring, what a piece of work Flubbo is! Must have had a bad day, perhaps he woke up to find his "special picture" of Hird had been crushed during his sleep!
Mind you the content wasn't as bad as the headline and he might not be responsible for the headline, but feck it he's got form like David Warner!
Not this week.
Not this week.
Not even an emergency, yet young Tom De Koning is. :-\
Not even an emergency, yet young Tom De Koning is. :-\
AFL website says TDK, our website say H ??? ???
As I mentioned in the pre-match...I think AFL.com is wrong and Harry is a club emergency (cover for Kreuzer)
Even "Superstars" like Lynch, people seem to talk about him like he's only been around 3 or 4 years, but it was 3 or 4 years before most even noticed him and he's in his 8th season now! :o
Lynch played 30 games in his first two seasons, he debuted at eighteen and a half.
The old big blokes take longer line is a bit of a crock in my opinion, the good ones are up and about early on.
Lynch played 30 games in his first two seasons, he debuted at eighteen and a half.
The old big blokes take longer line is a bit of a crock in my opinion, the good ones are up and about early on.
Josh Kennedy took quite a few years. Actually after he left Carlton. Many talls need to physically grow into their positions.
Josh Kennedy took quite a few years. Actually after he left Carlton. Many talls need to physically grow into their positions.
Kennedy played 22 games in his first two years at Carlton, he didn't look like a world beater but he showed definite promise.
McKay might well make the grade and I'm hoping that he does, but he needs to get a wriggle on.
Kennedy played 22 games in his first two years at Carlton, he didn't look like a world beater but he showed definite promise.
McKay might well make the grade and I'm hoping that he does, but he needs to get a wriggle on.
Kennedy was playing about 5th fiddle to Fev when with us. If Fev was anywhere near F50 nobody was game to give the ball to Josh!
Kennedy played 22 games in his first two years at Carlton, he didn't look like a world beater but he showed definite promise.
McKay might well make the grade and I'm hoping that he does, but he needs to get a wriggle on.
I agree, and I also agree with your earlier statement re the big man urban myth. I don't expect miracles, but Harry getting a senior gig might actually be nice.
Lynch played 30 games in his first two seasons, he debuted at eighteen and a half.
The old big blokes take longer line is a bit of a crock in my opinion, the good ones are up and about early on.
True, but in Gold Coast's case they had few other choices but to play 18 year olds regularly
True, but in Gold Coast's case they had few other choices but to play 18 year olds regularly
In McKay's case his only competition is Levi and he can't get past him.
I really hope that he makes the grade and I'm sure that all Carlton supporters feel the same, but it wouldn't be the first time we've tried to draft a key forward and came up empty handed.
Lynch played 30 games in his first two seasons, he debuted at eighteen and a half.
The old big blokes take longer line is a bit of a crock in my opinion, the good ones are up and about early on.
Not being injured makes a difference.
And FFS, being in the forward line next to Ablett Jnr, O'Meara, Prestia, Brennan, Dixon, Brown, etc, etc., makes difference. McKay's frontline chop out is Casboult!
The salient issue is not why Lynch, Kennedy etc. played seniors right off the bat, it is :
- what did they show in those early seasons, and
- has playing them early harmed them in any way ?
Lynch is the most sought after KF prospect at the moment, and Kennedy is a dual Coleman medallist. So I doubt we have anything to lose playing Harry, and certainly not for a block of 4 or 5 games, as I've previously advocated.
The salient issue is not why Lynch, Kennedy etc. played seniors right off the bat, it is :
- what did they show in those early seasons, and
- has playing them early harmed them in any way ?
Lynch is the most sought after KF prospect at the moment, and Kennedy is a dual Coleman medallist. So I doubt we have anything to lose playing Harry, and certainly not for a block of 4 or 5 games, as I've previously advocated.
If he’s not hitting his KPI’s why would you play him ?
In McKay's case his only competition is Levi and he can't get past him.
I really hope that he makes the grade and I'm sure that all Carlton supporters feel the same, but it wouldn't be the first time we've tried to draft a key forward and came up empty handed.
His competition is Casboult, Curnow and a coaching panel that seems to prefer going in with a small forward structure now.
If we line up as named (probably unlikely) then Daisy is our third tallest forward.
The suns have gone with a very small backline and if we were ever going to play Casboult, Curnow and Harry together this was the week to do it.
Not being injured makes a difference.
And FFS, being in the forward line next to Ablett Jnr, O'Meara, Prestia, Brennan, Dixon, Brown, etc, etc., makes difference. McKay's frontline chop out is Casboult!
It's all relative though.
He wouldn't have the same support at Carlton but he should still be getting a game in his third season if he's going to be a long term prospect in my opinion, I don't think that anyone would expect him to have a huge impact but we'd like to see him on the park at least.
If he’s not hitting his KPI’s why would you play him ?
I don't know what his KPI's are - I have no idea what he's meeting or not meeting. I simply think he should be given a block of games just to see how he goes at AFL level. I know he was injured early in his career, but he's entering he's 3rd season now. Give him a chance. Gold Coast aren't exactly bursting with talent. Etihad, for all its faults, is a fast track - we are now supposedly playing more attacking, faster ball movement etc. Perfect chance for a newbie KPF to show us something.
Darcy Fogarty, Paddy Dow, Tom Lynch, Josh Kennedy, were starting 22 from the get go. Why does McKay have to be on slow burn for so long ? I'm not advocating throwing him to the wolves. Just give him some game time. It's not like we're compromising our chances of a flag.
I don't know what his KPI's are - I have no idea what he's meeting or not meeting. I simply think he should be given a block of games just to see how he goes at AFL level. I know he was injured early in his career, but he's entering he's 3rd season now. Give him a chance. Gold Coast aren't exactly bursting with talent. Etihad, for all its faults, is a fast track - we are now supposedly playing more attacking, faster ball movement etc. Perfect chance for a newbie KPF to show us something.
Darcy Fogarty, Paddy Dow, Tom Lynch, Josh Kennedy, were starting 22 from the get go. Why does McKay have to be on slow burn for so long ? I'm not advocating throwing him to the wolves. Just give him some game time. It's not like we're compromising our chances of a flag.
That’s the point of my comment about him not OBVIOUSLY NOT meeting his KPI’s... if he was meeting them he would be getting a game.
Like you I don’t know what his KPI’s are either, but I’m sure they’ll change and develop over time, hopefully like the man himself... but no gifting of games, we’ve gone past that garbage.
That’s the point of my comment about him not OBVIOUSLY NOT meeting his KPI’s... if he was meeting them he would be getting a game.
Like you I don’t know what his KPI’s are either, but I’m sure they’ll change and develop over time, hopefully like the man himself... but no gifting of games, we’ve gone past that garbage.
I'm all for giving young men blocks of games if it helps their long term development.
I don't know what his KPI's are - I have no idea what he's meeting or not meeting. I simply think he should be given a block of games just to see how he goes at AFL level. I know he was injured early in his career, but he's entering he's 3rd season now. Give him a chance. Gold Coast aren't exactly bursting with talent. Etihad, for all its faults, is a fast track - we are now supposedly playing more attacking, faster ball movement etc. Perfect chance for a newbie KPF to show us something.
Darcy Fogarty, Paddy Dow, Tom Lynch, Josh Kennedy, were starting 22 from the get go. Why does McKay have to be on slow burn for so long ? I'm not advocating throwing him to the wolves. Just give him some game time. It's not like we're compromising our chances of a flag.
Josh Kennedy from the world go? Don't think so. Tom Lynch was as the Gold Coast were a new team at the time. Kennedy never did any good until his 2nd year with the Eagles. Certainly not at Carlton although he should potential in our VFL team, as McKay has.
Fogarty and Dow were a different issue, they're midfielders
I'll pay you Kennedy to some extent although as I pointed out he played 22 senior games in his two years at Carlton, but most if not all of the good key forwards were regular senior players by their 3rd season, Carey was Captain of North by then if memory serves.
I'd be happy if he was just getting a game, I don't expect him to be setting the world on fire early in his career.
I'll pay you Kennedy to some extent although as I pointed out he played 22 senior games in his two years at Carlton, but most if not all of the good key forwards were regular senior players by their 3rd season,...............
I'd be happy if he was just getting a game, I don't expect him to be setting the world on fire early in his career.
Agree, time to get him in there and blood the youngster.
I'll pay you Kennedy to some extent although as I pointed out he played 22 senior games in his two years at Carlton, but most if not all of the good key forwards were regular senior players by their 3rd season, Carey was Captain of North by then if memory serves.
I'd be happy if he was just getting a game, I don't expect him to be setting the world on fire early in his career.
Injuries haven't helped his cause. Even that turf toe has lingered alot longer over preseason. Similar to Kennedy he has showed potential in the VFL. The way the game's set up these days he it's harder to play two key forwards. Levi's still entrenched, for now at least, and then we have C.Curnow in the other key role and even sometimes Cripps up there too when he's taking a break from the midfield. He could play as a key forward as well as he's does a midfielder if we ever decided to go down that path. McKay will eventually take Levi's role. The one I do like in the VFL amongst our key forwards is Kerr.
Agree, time to get him in there and blood the youngster.
No-where to fit him in the current structure. We keep making him emergency.
No-where to fit him in the current structure. We keep making him emergency.
I'm sure if the club wanted to play him, they could make room. At any rate, if we get to the end of the 2018 season, and he's only managed a few games.............
The one I do like in the VFL amongst our key forwards is Kerr.
Kerr has got an awfully long way to go in my opinion, from what I've seen of him he does a few nice things but doesn't get involved enough in the game, he also lacks a yard of pace.
McKay has the physical attributes at least but maybe he's just not up to the required standard, time will tell.
The way the game's set up these days he it's harder to play two key forwards.
You can still play 3+ key defenders though.
Still trying to work out the logic there.
Kerr has got an awfully long way to go in my opinion, from what I've seen of him he does a few nice things but doesn't get involved enough in the game, he also lacks a yard of pace.
McKay has the physical attributes at least but maybe he's just not up to the required standard, time will tell.
What i've seen is Kerr reads it well, leads well, kicks well, smart player, and good in a contested situation. Fraser was a real wrap for him last year. I felt he'd be a player.
What i've seen is Kerr reads it well, leads well, kicks well, smart player, and good in a contested situation. Fraser was a real wrap for him last year. I felt he'd be a player.
x2....Kerr needs some senior opportunities, some players really fastrack in the seniors when given a run of games...probably has a few more tricks than SOSOS IMO....
x2....Kerr needs some senior opportunities, some players really fastrack in the seniors when given a run of games...probably has a few more tricks than SOSOS IMO....
Not sure he's a smarter footballer than SoJ, he certainly isn't as agile or effective in traffic, but he is far more physical and brutal at the contest. I'd say Kerr is built and aggressive like Fogarty, he could be that sort of player for us. On the lead I'd think Kerr has Fogarty covered for pace.
If you put SoJ footy brains(not smarts brains) and work ethic into Kerr's physical attributes you'd have another Taylor Walker.
The way the game's set up these days he it's harder to play two key forwards.
I don't think so, they are all migrating towards KPP size.
Teams are slowly becoming lists of players +190cm in size, the HFFs and HBFs are KPP size from a decade or two ago!
What's Cripps now, 6'5" (195cm), similar in size to Weitering and Rowe!
KPPs are not going to scale in size relative to midfielders, it's just going to even out!
And you are writing this the day after Adelaide made Nthmond's single KPF structure looked mighty brittle. Adelaide going with Walker and Jenkins looked reliable, they kicked 9 goals between them, and the had Fogarty at about 194cm x 95kg roaming around besides them as a HFF!
I don't think so, they are all migrating towards KPP size.
Teams are slowly becoming lists of players +190cm in size, the HFFs and HBFs are KPP size from a decade or two ago!
What's Cripps now, 6'5" (195cm), similar in size to Weitering and Rowe!
KPPs are not going to scale in size relative to midfielders, it's just going to even out!
And you are writing this the day after Adelaide made Nthmond's single KPF structure looked mighty brittle. Adelaide going with Walker and Jenkins looked reliable, they kicked 9 goals between them, and the had Fogarty at about 194cm x 95kg roaming around besides them as a HFF!
What i'm saying is hard to played two genuinely trained key forwards. The taller midfielder is playing that second role. We have the perfect players in Curnow and Cripps for that.
Yes, but in a big final where counted it was much tougher for Adelaide against Richmond. If there's a lack of pressure a few talls can cut you up. Finals pressure a different game. Richmond's game is based on pressure, without it their system isn't as good.
You can still play 3+ key defenders though.
Still trying to work out the logic there.
Depends on who you're playing against too I suppose. Need them against Adelaide, not so much against Richmond. Finals becomes different again due to the pressure. One key forward is a must, 2 maybe not if you can get a couple a taller marking mids floating /resting there, which is more ideal.
I'm not concerned about H just yet. This is essentially his 2nd year considering injury, which continues to burden his development. Albeit different to his initial back problem. Talls take time as we all know. If Harry's body shape tells us anything it's that he's growing and changing despite the challenge of healing from injuries.
A fair question to ask is: how is Harry's development compared to his twin brother? Pretty sure Ben hasn't seen much game time yet. And that's for a team with a list arguably worse than ours.
Patience grasshopper.
I've got confidence in our club to balance injury management with development and long term benefit for the club. My hope is that he's ready to play regularly when big Levi steps down (or into alternate role - standard disclaimer thanks to Jonesy :)))
Go Blues
If they are good enough I think you can play 3 tall forwards.
SOSOS plays as a medium tall so we've really been running with that for 12 months now anyway. But with O'Shea replacing him I have no clue what the forward line will be tomorrow.
I assume Thomas and Cunningham and co will rotate through there to make us smaller but more likely is one of the tall defenders like Marchbank or Weitering will spend time as wing / forward. It will be an extremely tall backline otherwise.
I haven't seen O'Shea play. He's listed as a tall (197) running defender. Not sure how he slots in for either of our Outs. Cunningham I'm guessing will get a run through the middle. I hope we match up well this week because we didn't last week - by all accounts. No doubt our selectors have the good oil on this.
Sounds like reasonable doubt over big Kruez :-[
That will hurt us a lot IMO.
MY EDIT
Sorry, thought I was posting in pre-game thread.
I haven't seen O'Shea play. He's listed as a tall (197) running defender. Not sure how he slots in for either of our Outs. Cunningham I'm guessing will get a run through the middle. I hope we match up well this week because we didn't last week - by all accounts. No doubt our selectors have the good oil on this.
Sounds like reasonable doubt over big Kruez :-[
That will hurt us a lot IMO.
We need to catch a little more luck with injuries than we're having at the moment. Doc, Pickett, Kreuzer, Kennedy, ASOS, Lang, Williamson, Lobbe... it's starting to get serious.
Having thought about it...
Marchbank playing wing is the most likely outcome of O'Shea getting a game. He spent a lot of time there in the JLT. That will mean the resting mids rotation replaces SOSOS and Garlett will spend more time closer to goal hopefully.
I'm all for giving young men blocks of games if it helps their long term development.
So am I... provided they hit their KPI’s.
Like Jones last year, he was bashing on the door for selection and he didn’t miss a beat when promoted.
Everyone must hit their KPI’s before being eligible for selection, once selected sure, give them 3-6 games to find their feet.
Having thought about it...
Marchbank playing wing is the most likely outcome of O'Shea getting a game. He spent a lot of time there in the JLT. That will mean the resting mids rotation replaces SOSOS and Garlett will spend more time closer to goal hopefully.
See marchbank playing wing to accommodate O'Shea makes no sense to me. Yes, physically he could play there, but marchbank was one of our best last week and now we move him out of position to accommodate O'Shea into the team? Why not just bring in a wingman??
See marchbank playing wing to accommodate O'Shea makes no sense to me. Yes, physically he could play there, but marchbank was one of our best last week and now we move him out of position to accommodate O'Shea into the team? Why not just bring in a wingman??
They'd only do that if Marchbank is the guy they want on the wing. The team named 5 tall backmen. I'd be surprised if all 5 play in the back line.
They'd only do that if Marchbank is the guy they want on the wing. The team named 5 tall backmen. I'd be surprised if all 5 play in the back line.
Think you are right. There is another role planned for one of them at least. We can only guess though at what it will be.
‘Give Harry A Go?’ I think he will today. There was no justification to name him as an emergency, except as cover for Krooz, and he won’t come up. Big H needs to take his chance; dry track, weaker opposition, faster ball movement.
‘Give Harry A Go?’ I think he will today. There was no justification to name him as an emergency, except as cover for Krooz, and he won’t come up. Big H needs to take his chance; dry track, weaker opposition, faster ball movement.
I'm looking forward to seeing him in action today. :)
‘Give Harry A Go?’ I think he will today. There was no justification to name him as an emergency, except as cover for Krooz, and he won’t come up. Big H needs to take his chance; dry track, weaker opposition, faster ball movement.
Bolton said that Harry will come into the side if the Tractor can’t play.
They'd only do that if Marchbank is the guy they want on the wing. The team named 5 tall backmen. I'd be surprised if all 5 play in the back line.
I was surprised they played 4 last week.
Point is, picking O'Shea to cover Marchbank as you move him to the wing, is making our backline weaker....and i'm not sure our midfield stronger.
Why not pick a specialist wing instead of moving marchbank? He was one of our best last week, and we 'reward' him by playing him out of position? It doesn't make sense.
If we're going to muck around with it I'd like to see Marchbank up forward rather than on a wing.
Looks like Harry's playing VFL...and kicking goal(s)...well one!
https://twitter.com/NBluesFC?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Yep, makes the seniors selection interesting!!
Yep, makes the seniors selection interesting!!
I notice Kerridge isn't on the team list for NB's and he is one of today's emergencies.....
See marchbank playing wing to accommodate O'Shea makes no sense to me. Yes, physically he could play there, but marchbank was one of our best last week and now we move him out of position to accommodate O'Shea into the team? Why not just bring in a wingman??
I apologise wholeheartedly.
You were right, Bolton is showing his limitations as match selector and potentially outcoached himself in both games.
I'm notching it Two games that selection has cost us more than anything.
I apologise wholeheartedly.
You were right, Bolton is showing his limitations as match selector and potentially outcoached himself in both games.
I'm notching it Two games that selection has cost us more than anything.
You are one of the few who have had the balls to apologise and admit they were being harsh on me for suggesting it.
Said the same thing re team selection costing us games.
Not sure what he is trying to achieve, or if there is some hidden punishment being exercised that we don't know about, but makes no sense otherwise.
I do agree with you. Our team selections have not been good enough. Going into a game against a top ruckman (my God, I am frightened to write that: had Witts stayed at Collingwood he would still be a dud!) with only Casoult as a rucking option is a terrible mistake. It set us up to fail. Then our team balance hasn't been there.
Much work required in this area.
You are also correct: Bolts was seriously out-coached today. Dew's plans succeeded, while ours struggled.
Mind you, some of the non-decisions didn't help from the Umps, but if we had wanted the ball as much as they did, the umpiring would have been much less of an influence.
In many ways it was probably a good thing that H wasn't out there today. He would be tarred with a brush not of his own making, as our lack of intensity was clear. However, he would have taken some of those marks in the forward line to actually make out forward entries be worthwhile.
Bolton said that Harry will come into the side if the Tractor can’t play.
Then he didn't....grrrrr!
What the hell were they thinking.
Then he didn't....grrrrr!
What the hell were they thinking.
There are fairies at he bottom of the garden too!
It was all smoke and mirrors, but I don't know who was smoking what!
I suspect we have quite a few more injury concerns than are not being admitted, which will ultimately come back to bite BB on the ar5e!
Talking of injuries, I don't think Wright was 100% either from the way he was moving.
Agree, didn't look right (pardon the pun)
You are one of the few who have had the balls to apologise and admit they were being harsh on me for suggesting it.
Said the same thing re team selection costing us games.
Not sure what he is trying to achieve, or if there is some hidden punishment being exercised that we don't know about, but makes no sense otherwise.
I would apologise but I agreed with you....... ;)
I do agree with you. Our team selections have not been good enough. Going into a game against a top ruckman (my God, I am frightened to write that: had Witts stayed at Collingwood he would still be a dud!) with only Casoult as a rucking option is a terrible mistake. It set us up to fail. Then our team balance hasn't been there.
Much work required in this area.
You are also correct: Bolts was seriously out-coached today. Dew's plans succeeded, while ours struggled.
Mind you, some of the non-decisions didn't help from the Umps, but if we had wanted the ball as much as they did, the umpiring would have been much less of an influence.
The thing is that we didn’t have any other options; Lobbe is injured, Flip has played half a game, Harry may have been an option but only if there was no-one else and De Koning, while named as an emergency, is a long way off.
I thought that Casboult and Jones both gave good contests in the ruck, and we won the clearances, so Witts’ dominance in hitouts didn’t really amount to much.
I’d prefer to see Harry honing his key forward craft in the NBs rather than being thrown to the wolves as an underweight, inexperienced ruckman.
HooraY, so we played Polson (a kid who struggles in the maggos).
Stroke of genius by Bolts.
Quite frankly, footy players aren't known for their IQs, most Coaches and supports are ex footy players?
Do the maths.
The thing is that we didn’t have any other options; Lobbe is injured, Flip has played half a game, Harry may have been an option but only if there was no-one else and De Koning, while named as an emergency, is a long way off.
I thought that Casboult and Jones both gave good contests in the ruck, and we won the clearances, so Witts’ dominance in hitouts didn’t really amount to much.
I’d prefer to see Harry honing his key forward craft in the NBs rather than being thrown to the wolves as an underweight, inexperienced ruckman.
But in this game we unsettled the line up so much that we neither blooded kids, nor formulated a truly effective looking tactic that might win us the game.
It was a bit of a misfire. At least we have made sure we have burned polson in the process.
The thing is that we didn’t have any other options; Lobbe is injured, Flip has played half a game, Harry may have been an option but only if there was no-one else and De Koning, while named as an emergency, is a long way off.
I thought that Casboult and Jones both gave good contests in the ruck, and we won the clearances, so Witts’ dominance in hitouts didn’t really amount to much.
I’d prefer to see Harry honing his key forward craft in the NBs rather than being thrown to the wolves as an underweight, inexperienced ruckman.
Witts had 14 hit outs to advantage which is double what he had the week before.
The biggest problem we had with not playing another tall was we were too short in our forward line and Charlie Curnow had to do it all on his own.
Witts had 14 hit outs to advantage which is double what he had the week before.
The biggest problem we had with not playing another tall was we were too short in our forward line and Charlie Curnow had to do it all on his own.
Not entirely true. Weitering impersonated a witches hat for large periods of the game up forward too.
Could someone please explain to me all the comments about "Harry's not ready", "... needs more time", etc.
Is he injured? Is he immature for his age? Needs more time for what? We drafted him at pick 10. When I open my 2016 Carlton Season Guide there's a 2 page spread with McKay one one side and Weitering on the other. Why was Weits deemed ready for R1 yet a full 2 years later we're still waiting for Harry? He's taller and heavier than Weitering.
Most would agree you can throw a blanket over the first 10 picks in a draft - maybe even the first 20 - and be assured of getting quality.
Knowing Carlton and our recent history of stellar recruiting and player development ::), what's the bet we made the wrong call and should have played Harry while holding Weits back.
EDIT: Probably just exposed my own ignorance after realising we're talking about a future ruckman. Still, if he's fit, he should have played on Saturday. I thought he showed enough in the 2 games he played towards then end of last year, but I guess that's what this thread is all about.
Could someone please explain to me all the comments about "Harry's not ready", "... needs more time", etc.
Is he injured? Is he immature for his age? Needs more time for what? We drafted him at pick 10. When I open my 2016 Carlton Season Guide there's a 2 page spread with McKay one one side and Weitering on the other. Why was Weits deemed ready for R1 yet a full 2 years later we're still waiting for Harry? He's taller and heavier than Weitering.
Most would agree you can throw a blanket over the first 10 picks in a draft - maybe even the first 20 - and be assured of getting quality.
Knowing Carlton and our recent history of stellar recruiting and player development ::), what's the bet we made the wrong call and should have played Harry while holding Weits back.
EDIT: Probably just exposed my own ignorance after realising we're talking about a future ruckman. Still, if he's fit, he should have played on Saturday. I thought he showed enough in the 2 games he played towards then end of last year, but I guess that's what this thread is all about.
As far as I know we didn't recruit McKay as a ruckmen, although it's a given someone his size will eventually do some ruck work. He and his brother have always been KPPs at either end of the ground. Size isn't primarily what makes a ruckmen, Kreuzer and is the perfect example of that.
At the moment I think our structures are FUBAR, we have Marchbank who is Weitering size and playing him in a Simmo style running HBF role, while Simmo, Plowman, Byrne and Mullett are also playing a Simmo type running HBF role. I'm not even sure Marchbank is a good enough decision maker or ball user to be in that role, and I doubt he's a better intercept mark than Weitering, Marchbank is certainly not a better ball user than Weitering.
We seem to be obsessed with having our better players be utility types, why do we let that happen. I don't see Harry Taylor chasing forward pockets up the field or playing as a defensive forward. Taylor hardly left D50 for the first 5 years of his career!
Not entirely true. Weitering impersonated a witches hat for large periods of the game up forward too.
Who did he learn that off?
Could someone please explain to me all the comments about "Harry's not ready", "... needs more time", etc.
Is he injured? Is he immature for his age? Needs more time for what? We drafted him at pick 10. When I open my 2016 Carlton Season Guide there's a 2 page spread with McKay one one side and Weitering on the other. Why was Weits deemed ready for R1 yet a full 2 years later we're still waiting for Harry? He's taller and heavier than Weitering.
Most would agree you can throw a blanket over the first 10 picks in a draft - maybe even the first 20 - and be assured of getting quality.
Knowing Carlton and our recent history of stellar recruiting and player development ::), what's the bet we made the wrong call and should have played Harry while holding Weits back.
EDIT: Probably just exposed my own ignorance after realising we're talking about a future ruckman. Still, if he's fit, he should have played on Saturday. I thought he showed enough in the 2 games he played towards then end of last year, but I guess that's what this thread is all about.
Its ok.
The question is valid, but somehow I think the answer is in Weitering's formline. He has shown a little bit, and been worked out, but isn't physically mature enough to endure it long term and it is now stalling his progress and making it longer.
Its one thing to fast track development, its another to play kids before they are ready to compete.
Have a look at Polson. Miles off the pace, and hes a small who should be on pace. He has played two uninspiring AFL games.
Charlie Curnow was the one who was a super athlete, who has come on the best of that draft crop, but he was rumoured to be better able to compete from day one, and has really gone from strength to strength. Aside from his early set back with glandular fever, he has also had a fairly injury free run at it unlike both Weitering and Mckay.
Its hard to say.
Realistically, only these boys can tell you how they feel.
Its ok.
The question is valid, but somehow I think the answer is in Weitering's formline. He has shown a little bit, and been worked out, but isn't physically mature enough to endure it long term and it is now stalling his progress and making it longer.
Its one thing to fast track development, its another to play kids before they are ready to compete.
Have a look at Polson. Miles off the pace, and hes a small who should be on pace. He has played two uninspiring AFL games.
Charlie Curnow was the one who was a super athlete, who has come on the best of that draft crop, but he was rumoured to be better able to compete from day one, and has really gone from strength to strength. Aside from his early set back with glandular fever, he has also had a fairly injury free run at it unlike both Weitering and Mckay.
Its hard to say.
Realistically, only these boys can tell you how they feel.
The heat is only just arriving for Charlie, Weitering led the AFL intercept marking in his first season, he's shown a little more than a little bit which is why opponents have put so much focus into him.
I doubt Weitering's problem is primarily himself, it's the lack of players around him sharing the load.
Even Charlie's goal haul the other week was primarily a two quarter effort, he's still some way away from playing four quarters of football as a KPP.
A big concern for me is Charlie is about to face this with no support around him, and it won't come from Casboult.
I still think all these taller guys have heaps of time. I always think back to the Josh Kennedy example. We were all saying the same things about him as we were about Harry.
It took Kennedy 4 or 5 years to come good. It's probably unfair to compare guys to Charlie who is tracking ahead of time. It's inevitable though when they were in the same draft.
Fingers crossed they give Harry a prolonged crack at it at some point this year. I also think we should bring Jack straight back in.
As much as I'd hate to see another bloke played out of position, Wayne Carey might be correct.
An F50 of Cripps combined with perhaps Charlie, McKay, Silvagni, Wright and Garlett might be our best option.
Cripps will certainly set the tone and lead the way, even though he is only a kid himself!
If Kennedy is available, does this become an option?
As much as I'd hate to see another bloke played out of position, Wayne Carey might be correct.
An F50 of Cripps combined with perhaps Charlie, McKay, Silvagni, Wright and Garlett might be our best option.
Cripps will certainly set the tone and lead the way, even though he is only a kid himself!
If Kennedy is available, does this become an option?
Agree with most of that... Casboult would be the obvious addition.
The weekend proved for me that the small man forward line that Richmond play is bloody tough to pull off. They might be good on spite of this - not because of it.
Agree with most of that... Casboult would be the obvious addition.
The weekend proved for me that the small man forward line that Richmond play is bloody tough to pull off. They might be good on spite of this - not because of it.
Most are thinking that in hindsight Nthmond were just lucky, even many Nthmond fans do not deny it but of course they do not have to because they have the cup! Well at least they had it before their AFLW CEO let Dasha Gavrilova turn it into a Kitty Litter Tray!
They are the AFL equivalent of "Mr Burn's and the Bowling Trophy" claimed the trophy then threw it on the scrap heap with the rest of the collected junk!
I doubt Weitering's problem is primarily himself, it's the lack of players around him sharing the load.
Don't buy that. 5 to 1 it's something in his personal life....
Don't buy that. 5 to 1 it's something in his personal life....
Could be, hard to tell though. He demeanour points to something troubling him but then again, I think back to early interviews of him and he came across as overly mature and reserved even at 8 years of age. He's not your average bear thats for sure. I hope he turns it around fast.
Could be, hard to tell though. He demeanour points to something troubling him but then again, I think back to early interviews of him and he came across as overly mature and reserved even at 8 years of age. He's not your average bear thats for sure. I hope he turns it around fast.
Said it before, dont think he likes the heavy hits at senior level and dare I say it prefers bruise free footy....
Said it before, dont think he likes the heavy hits at senior level and dare I say it prefers bruise free footy....
I don't think he needed to worry about the physical stuff before as he is a big boy and probably did not get a lot of it directed at him at more junior levels. He looks rattled now for sure and he has the challenge of getting used to it and dishing some out. If the opposition smell weakness/fear or poor body language they'll go after him. I saw a program on tv once talking about people who are mugged or attacked in the street and their body language apparently plays an important part in the attackers' choice of victim, since they give off an impression of weakness even by the way they might walk down the street. Weiters just screams being a bit timid/tentative. Hopefully he will get over it asap - shouldn't say this but he just needs to grab hold of someone and really go for 'em! He'll feel a lot better I guarantee. :)
I don't think he needed to worry about the physical stuff before as he is a big boy and probably did not get a lot of it directed at him at more junior levels. He looks rattled now for sure and he has the challenge of getting used to it and dishing some out. If the opposition smell weakness/fear or poor body language they'll go after him. I saw a program on tv once talking about people who are mugged or attacked in the street and their body language apparently plays an important part in the attackers' choice of victim, since they give off an impression of weakness even by the way they might walk down the street. Weiters just screams being a bit timid/tentative. Hopefully he will get over it asap - shouldn't say this but he just needs to grab hold of someone and really go for 'em! He'll feel a lot better I guarantee. :)
BANG ! Dont get angry, get on the front foot and get even.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-13/blues-in-a-hurry-to-unleash-mckay-bolton
I don't think he needed to worry about the physical stuff before as he is a big boy and probably did not get a lot of it directed at him at more junior levels. He looks rattled now for sure and he has the challenge of getting used to it and dishing some out. If the opposition smell weakness/fear or poor body language they'll go after him. I saw a program on tv once talking about people who are mugged or attacked in the street and their body language apparently plays an important part in the attackers' choice of victim, since they give off an impression of weakness even by the way they might walk down the street. Weiters just screams being a bit timid/tentative. Hopefully he will get over it asap - shouldn't say this but he just needs to grab hold of someone and really go for 'em! He'll feel a lot better I guarantee. :)
x3....Harry has more about him physically than JW and IMO Harry should have played/been played a lot more games.....
Some want Tom Lynch from GC at megabucks, we might have our own TL but dont even know it..Lynch played 30 games across his first two seasons.....no hiding him in the QAFL etc etc....
Not sure what is happening with JW, he might appreciate Harry and Kerr in the senior team to help look after him, Sidebum gave JW a real mouthful after he was outmarked by Reid, I would have grabbed him and let him know that wont be happening again but JW just put his head down and took it ..its not on, when you are 6' 5" little blokes dont talk to you like that, you need to assert yourself and stand your ground....
Sidebottom sling tackles Fisher and senior players just let that go too...thats not on either, report or no report you set standards of behaviour that other teams need to respect.
Harry should be in the team and encouraged to be physical and look after his small team mates....
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-13/blues-in-a-hurry-to-unleash-mckay-bolton
"We don't just throw them in there randomly and say, 'We're just going to do it all of a sudden' - it's just not going to happen that way," he said.
"There's a plan behind it. It's an educated decision and an informed decision."
Well whatever this master plan is, it better start making sense.
Harry is not going to get form playing in 130 point losses in the VFL.
Yes, he hasn't had a pre-season....but he would be playing in our forward-line, so its not like he will need to be an elite runner to play in it. Hell, he wouldn't have to do much to improve on the efforts of Weitering playing a similar role at times this year.
Just play him. If he flops, at least you've got the public off your back in regards to playing him. If he doesn't flop, great success!
"But for the (two-and-a-bit) years he's been here to date, Harry's unfortunately had body issues; he hasn't completed a full pre-season, he hasn't had any continuity of games and he's playing one of the most difficult positions.
"So, we're trying now to build consistency, so that when he does come in the AFL, he's not in and out, he can get in there and stay there – again, all part of the plan.
"It's no more complex than that. But is the will and want to have him there? Yeah, of course it is. It's just getting the timing right."
Maybe we are learning what not to do with Weitering (who is working his dot off on field, despite being a bit ineffective).
I think our impatience of waiting for Mckay is a symptom of bigger impatience in getting our kids up to speed.
In reality that all of them are fairly uncompetitive for patches and that applies to the smalls as well as the talls.
In light of the recent media attention, reactivating this chat. Happened on the chance to speak with an assistant coach at the club recently and he played a very straight bat. Said Harry still has a bit to learn yet.
Forwards rely on good delivery. No he's not going to get that from our current senior side, but it isn't going to be any better in the magoos. Been hearing a compromised pre season as an excuse. He's had the the season to get some sort of fitness. Is that the problem? Do not start me on needing to improve his work rate. That could be leveled at most of our senior side right now.
I'm thinking there must be more to this than what we are hearing. If there are other problems (and I am not looking to find out what they are), then move him on.
Reading this thread makes me white hot with rage for what we’ve done to Weitering.
Was still 18 at the end of his first season. Wasn’t a stand out in a draft which was perceived as a little weak. We just threw him to the wolves >:(
Such a dumb club. Guess who spent a year in the reserves before becoming a Flying Doormat?
Amazing what media and public pressure can do! Wonder if H would have gotten a gig this week without it? He's still terribly underdone so expectations should be modest.
Maybe we are learning what not to do with Weitering (who is working his dot off on field, despite being a bit ineffective).
I think our impatience of waiting for Mckay is a symptom of bigger impatience in getting our kids up to speed.
In reality that all of them are fairly uncompetitive for patches and that applies to the smalls as well as the talls.
I think, to a certain extent, that Weitering is/was his own worst enemy. He came across as an 18 year old with a 45 year old maturity... and we all bought it. Bottom line is that he is a mature speaking kid with a big strong, slow body who still needs time to develop.
I think, to a certain extent, that Weitering is/was his own worst enemy. He came across as an 18 year old with a 45 year old maturity... and we all bought it. Bottom line is that he is a mature speaking kid with a big strong, slow body who still needs time to develop.
Contrast that with Matt Watson. He could kick it further but he had no idea.
We are just far too impatient. Weitering at least reads the play and can uses it well enough. I think his body has been letting him down a bit too.
Contrast that with Matt Watson. He could kick it further but he had no idea.
We are just far too impatient. Weitering at least reads the play and can uses it well enough. I think his body has been letting him down a bit too.
His disposal of late has been average and he has an aversion to contact........maybe he is sore in those taped shoulders but I'd argue then the club should
not be playing him and fix those physical issues.....
I wonder if Weitering would be getting a game most of the season if we had most of a full back line to pick from? Might have ( hopefully) driven the hunger to succeed more .Not saying he has ben granted games , but him along with others have benefitted from the injury count
His disposal of late has been average and he has an aversion to contact........maybe he is sore in those taped shoulders but I'd argue then the club should
not be playing him and fix those physical issues.....
He never seemed to get over that injury he got against the Bummers EB. He really did look like the goods before that but it has seemingly sapped all his confidence and a lot of his composure.
He never seemed to get over that injury he got against the Bummers EB. He really did look like the goods before that but it has seemingly sapped all his confidence and a lot of his composure.
In fairness to Weitering, before he got injured last weekend he was far from our worst and tracking pretty well up until 1/2-time. He and Jones were made to look silly on the TV at times, but that wasn't their fault as our defensive run from Forwards and Mids was borderline abominable! With the modern game's quick handballs, throws some might say, no defender can deal with 2 or 3 opponents.
I don't know what the AFL can do about these throws, but I feel as clubs push the rules further and further congestion gets worse! They basically want the opposition sucked in some they can create a clear space around the stoppage and then the get first hands on the ball and throw it away!
Also, for those of you listening to the radio, a couple of the turnovers attributed to Weitering during the call on the ABC Grandstand were actually Liam Jones. Something you only pick up on when you watch one and listen to the other. I recommend doing that when you get the opportunity, it makes you realise that you have to cross check everything the radio callers say before you make a judgment on a player! The callers rarely voluntarily correct each other, they rely in the fact most listeners are not watching, it's not like the old days when a radio callers accuracy was a valuable skill! Williamson would be despair, Beitzel and racings Bill Collins would turn in their grave, listening to some of the modern spuds!
His disposal of late has been average and he has an aversion to contact........maybe he is sore in those taped shoulders but I'd argue then the club should
not be playing him and fix those physical issues.....
You could say that about half the blokes that play for us most weeks which is more of a guide as to why we are doing so poorly.
You could say that about half the blokes that play for us most weeks which is more of a guide as to why we are doing so poorly.
There is a definition of optimism, glass half full!
He never seemed to get over that injury he got against the Bummers EB. He really did look like the goods before that but it has seemingly sapped all his confidence and a lot of his composure.
You are right Cookie, ever since he took that hit he hasnt been right and he reminds me of Geoff Southby after Neil Balme collected him...he just wasnt the same or as good and it finished his career.
I hope that isnt the case with Weitering but he is a player who must be a major worry for the club given his No 1 pick status and the expectation of growth in his game that just hasnt happened..
His kicking was a feature of his game in his first year, long 50m kicks to position but you wouldnt back him over 30m to the target these days....looks worried and unhappy on the field and almost at times like he wants
to avoid being involved in play for fear of messing up.
You are right Cookie, ever since he took that hit he hasnt been right and he reminds me of Geoff Southby after Neil Balme collected him...he just wasnt the same or as good and it finished his career.
He did manage to play for another 10 years ......
He did manage to play for another 10 years ......
I never thought he was the same......10 years......went quick ;)
I never thought he was the same......10 years......went quick ;)
Yeah...74, 75, 76, 77 & 78 were unimportant anyway......I'd still like a Geoff Southby even circa 1980 in our side today !!!
Yeah...74, 75, 76, 77 & 78 were unimportant anyway......I'd still like a Geoff Southby even circa 1980 in our side today !!!
Southby would revel in modern footy today with his sublime skills and reading of the play.....he was playing on at every opportunity at FB back in his day and was along with Dench from North was the new breed of defender.
Great player and saddened me when I read about his battles with depression and how serious they were even during his times as a player....
When I read about supporters wanting Balme at our club to run the footy dept I just think I'd rather stay bottom than let that piece of scum anywhere near our club ....
When I read about supporters wanting Balme at our club to run the footy dept I just think I'd rather stay bottom than let that piece of scum anywhere near our club ....
I'll second that.
Southby would revel in modern footy today with his sublime skills and reading of the play.....he was playing on at every opportunity at FB back in his day and was along with Dench from North was the new breed of defender.
Great player and saddened me when I read about his battles with depression and how serious they were even during his times as a player....
When I read about supporters wanting Balme at our club to run the footy dept I just think I'd rather stay bottom than let that piece of scum anywhere near our club ....
Balme is an excellent footy administrator and if he helped us to jag a flag, it would go some small way to atoning for his past misdemeanours. We've had plenty of dirty players over the journey.
Balme is an excellent footy administrator and if he helped us to jag a flag, it would go some small way to atoning for his past misdemeanours. We've had plenty of dirty players over the journey.
Yep Records show he is a excellent footy administrator but we can never go that low that we allow him anywhere near our football club, thats selling our soul to the devil.......
He is dog excrement and as Inspector Harry Callahan could tell you a lot of things can happen to dog crape.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58sP8azcHfQ
Yep Records show he is a excellent footy administrator but we can never go that low that we allow him anywhere near our football club, thats selling our soul to the devil.......
He is dog excrement and as Inspector Harry Callahan could tell you a lot of things can happen to dog crape.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58sP8azcHfQ
Defending Southby's honour is admirable, but not helpful to us. Balme isn't the only decent administrator out there, and all other things being equal I'd prefer someone else. The past can't be changed, and it's not as if we're punishing Balme by banning him. He would have plenty of suitors. But if we pass on him when it turns out he's the best man for the job, then we are being foolish and negligent.
Robert Walls has moved on, and not only is he good mates with Southby, he was also there when all these incidents occurred. If it's good enough for him, it should be good enough for us :
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-great-robert-walls-accuses-collingwood-football-club-of-dishonesty-backs-neil-balme/news-story/44eb5f7692d1228abf37168f43544987
I don't hear too many complaints when Clarkson's name is mentioned as a potential coach - I guess Ian Aitken is a second class citizen in CFC folklore.
There are some things that can't be excused and taking out a champion player in a grand final is one of them.
I wouldn't expect Collingwood supporters to welcome Jim O'Dea at their club, and likewise Balme should be off limits at ours.
You can't take the emotion out of football and football clubs, people who say that it's a business are mistaken.
There are some things that can't be excused and taking out a champion player in a grand final is one of them.
I wouldn't expect Collingwood supporters to welcome Jim O'Dea at their club, and likewise Balme should be off limits at ours.
You can't take the emotion out of football and football clubs, people who say that it's a business are mistaken.
If we want to get back to our former position at the top of the tree, we need the best in the business in key positions. If that means sometimes you have the occasional uncomfortable bedfellow, then so be it. You can bet London to a brick that the Pratts, Elliotts and George Harris' of this world wouldn't care a damn about what Balme did 50 years ago. Their attitude would be focussed on what this person can do for us now.
You make an assumption that your position on Balme would be shared by most Carlton supporters - I don't think that's right, and a large part of the differences may be age related. It's also important to understand that emotions exist in a dynamic state. If Balme helps us to win a flag, those positive feelings don't replace what happened in the past - they can co exist and the flag win may help to ameliorate some of the past negativities. Sometimes you just have to move on.
You've mentioned in the past that you're the type that holds grudges, so what I've just posted may mean little to you.
45 years ago. It's gone. We move on.
Southby forgave him years ago and if he can so can the rest of us. If Carlton people were happy having him around then so am I.
There are some things that can't be excused and taking out a champion player in a grand final is one of them.
I wouldn't expect Collingwood supporters to welcome Jim O'Dea at their club, and likewise Balme should be off limits at ours.
You can't take the emotion out of football and football clubs, people who say that it's a business are mistaken.
x2...We dont have much left, I dont intend to sell our pride and dignity and beg to Balme to save us...he never even apologised properly....
Cant believe integrity is so cheap on this forum.....
Sorry PaulP, I just can't get past it, it's unforgiveable as far as I'm concerned.
By the way mate, Harris, Elliott and Pratt are hardly role models in my book so I couldn't care less what their attitude would have been.
I know Russell has labeled Charlie a young Franklin,
(https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/Samples/563315-tlslargeportrait.jpg)
but you would not blame Lurch for being scared of McKay, what a monster!
It's hard to imagine, if our mids can move the ball quickly enough and get it within 5m of this bloke, that anyone can fairly stop him!
Rnd 1 2019, 80K fans, sit the ball on Rance's or Grime's head 35m out from goal and let Harry do his thing!
I know Russell has labeled Charlie a young Franklin,
(https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/Samples/563315-tlslargeportrait.jpg)
but you would not blame Lurch for being scared of McKay, what a monster!
It's hard to imagine, if our mids can move the ball quickly enough and get it within 5m of this bloke, that anyone can fairly stop him!
Rnd 1 2019, 80K fans, sit the ball on Rance's or Grime's head 35m out from goal and let Harry do his thing!
I'd like to see that! :)
Southby would revel in modern footy today with his sublime skills and reading of the play.....he was playing on at every opportunity at FB back in his day and was along with Dench from North was the new breed of defender.
Great player and saddened me when I read about his battles with depression and how serious they were even during his times as a player....
When I read about supporters wanting Balme at our club to run the footy dept I just think I'd rather stay bottom than let that piece of scum anywhere near our club ....
And a better bloke who loves the club with all his heart you will not meet. I have had abit to do with Geoff both at work and with SOC functions and he is a true gentlemen.