Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: townsendcalling on April 15, 2020, 02:19:22 pm

Title: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: townsendcalling on April 15, 2020, 02:19:22 pm
The Fox Footy Verdict:

JONATHAN BROWN:
I would have to say Carlton. I think St Kilda will go better this year from a ladder point of view but I think the top-end of Carlton looks a lot brighter for the future. When you’re looking at winning premierships you are looking at the top-end talent that you’ve got on your list and I have to say Carlton wins that battle. I think they’ve done a pretty good job with their rebuild. They’ve gone down the path of recruiting key position players and key position players take time to develop but it’s important because if you can build that spine it gives you good longevity. If they can get Harry McKay and Charlie Curnow going, I think their key defenders are pretty strong. It’s just can they support Patrick Cripps with enough support in the midfield? But their bones to me allows them to go higher than St Kilda. I think Carlton will start to hit their sweet-spot from 2022 onwards.

MATTHEW PAVLICH:
I think Carlton’s younger players and the talent they’ve got through the draft the last few years is superior to St Kilda. So I think longer-term Carlton is better off. But given what the Saints’ strategy has been the last couple of years getting in the likes of Dan Hannebery, Brad Hill, Zak Jones, Dougal Howard and Paddy Ryder, I think their list is a bit more robust to have a go at challenging now. So I think they’re closer than Carlton right now. If you look at the Richmond model a couple of years ago where they brought in the likes of Dion Prestia, Toby Nankervis and Josh Caddy, people at the time were questioning whether it was the right move to go the experienced players. Only the Saints’ hierarchy know if they’ve done the right thing getting these players in. On the surface it’s a bold move going to all these older experienced players and trying to make it work, but I can understand what they’re trying to do.

GERARD HEALY:
The Blues. They’re taking the slow path and the constant build and they’ve still got a really good trade hand coming up in the next couple of years. They’ve got some serious magnets in place. They need to keep working big time on their midfield, including ruck stocks. But I think they will be rewarded in time for their patience. It’s fair to say it will be exciting to see what the Saints’ approach does and you’d expect them to have a significant lift over the next year or two. But the concern is they’ve got one pick in the top-50 in the next two years. So the only way they’re going to now bolster their chances is through free agency. If they can pull a trick or two there then they may jump up and give themselves a chance. But the one thing they would want to avoid is getting stuck in that middle clump of teams, one or two legs away from being a genuine contender. They’ve recruited for now but they’re going to have to pull a couple of masterstrokes to find another level once this level has played out.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Thryleon on April 15, 2020, 05:07:03 pm
We have gone cap in hand to the AFL asking for a handout again.

Whilst that equation remains, we are not going to win a thing.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: PaulP on April 15, 2020, 05:36:03 pm
We have gone cap in hand to the AFL asking for a handout again.
...............................

Yep :
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/04/13/blues-will-ask-the-afl-for-financial-assistance/
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 15, 2020, 06:00:40 pm
Yep :
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/04/13/blues-will-ask-the-afl-for-financial-assistance/
Liddle and Judge explained that had we not paid of so much debt, we would have been self sufficient like the others. Liddle said  if the crisis was this this time next year, they would have been non assisted. I think its important to mention this.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: capcom on April 15, 2020, 06:05:48 pm
We have gone cap in hand to the AFL asking for a handout again.

Whilst that equation remains, we are not going to win a thing.

Interesting to see which teams didn't.  Geelong, above all, should be denied any assistance.

They disgust me.  I'm sure I'm not the only one
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: kruddler on April 15, 2020, 06:48:16 pm
Interesting to see which teams didn't.  Geelong, above all, should be denied any assistance.

They disgust me.  I'm sure I'm not the only one



Caros article on this a week or 2 ago said that only 3 teams would be able to go it alone. I can't recall if it was Vic based clubs only.

Tigers, Pies and i think it was either Hawthorn or Geelong for the 3rd were the only 3 teams deemed viable due to the money in the bank that they hold.

It was suggested that the Kangas could be insolvent in about 2 weeks. The Sainters not too far behind.

Basically the AFL said it like this.
If you need assistance now, or you think you may need it in the not too distant future, you need to apply now.
If you apply later, then you will have to pay a higher price for any bailout you ask for.

So its simply smart business to ask now given the unknowns. You'll be better off in the long run.
Its better asking and not needing than not asking and needing.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: capcom on April 15, 2020, 07:14:17 pm
All true kruddler and perhaps jumping the gun, but them with all their handouts and grants and (alleged) money in the bank?  At least grade the grants but we know nothing about intended splits, so rather academic.     
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: kruddler on April 15, 2020, 07:52:44 pm
All true kruddler and perhaps jumping the gun, but them with all their handouts and grants and (alleged) money in the bank?  At least grade the grants but we know nothing about intended splits, so rather academic.     
There was some talk about what it all meant......but largely its just guesswork until....
a) The season gets started/shortened/cancelled
b) The clubs work out how much money they have/need

A simplistic version from what i can recall is each club gets a big bag of cash.....they use what they need (if anything) and pay it all back when they can. Minimal interest for all clubs who put their hands up now. Larger amount for clubs who ask later.

Liddle seemed to think that even with asking for a handout, we should be able to pay off our remaining debt in the next 18months or so.

I think largely, its just s handout to help with cashflow in the short term.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: capcom on April 15, 2020, 08:11:50 pm
The interest rates won't discourage the applications
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: kruddler on April 15, 2020, 08:24:54 pm
The interest rates won't discourage the applications

The larger interest rate for delaying asking for help won't discourage clubs from asking later....sure. If it gets to that stage and they need to ask its probably because its either get help or perish.
However, if you think there is any chance you will need to ask.....down the line.....just ask now. You'll save yourself money in interest by swallowing your pride.

The AFL are doing that so they can get a better indication on how to budget for the future.
If they set aside x amount of $'s now.....and then teams come out of the woodwork and need more help later, their budget goes up ship creek. So encourage them now, and you have a more stable budget to get you through this crisis.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 15, 2020, 08:51:13 pm

Caros article on this a week or 2 ago said that only 3 teams would be able to go it alone. I can't recall if it was Vic based clubs only.

Tigers, Pies and i think it was either Hawthorn or Geelong for the 3rd were the only 3 teams deemed viable due to the money in the bank that they hold.

It was suggested that the Kangas could be insolvent in about 2 weeks. The Sainters not too far behind.

Basically the AFL said it like this.
If you need assistance now, or you think you may need it in the not too distant future, you need to apply now.
If you apply later, then you will have to pay a higher price for any bailout you ask for.

So its simply smart business to ask now given the unknowns. You'll be better off in the long run.
Its better asking and not needing than not asking and needing.
Unassisted clubs are West Coast, Richmond, Collingwood, Hawthorn Adelaide, Western Bulldogs and Cheats FC.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/western-bulldogs-among-the-six-clubs-to-go-it-alone-20200406-p54hnt.html

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/stalwart-elshaug-laid-off-by-bombers-in-coronavirus-crunch-20200414-p54jn3.html
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: PaulP on April 15, 2020, 08:54:36 pm
Back on topic, the comparison to St Kilda seems rather arbitrary.

At any rate, it's good news that we are now being mentioned in the same breath as them. If you've ever craved a single sentence that summarises our precipitous decline, look no further.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 15, 2020, 09:00:18 pm
Back on topic, the comparison to St Kilda seems rather arbitrary.

At any rate, it's good news that we are now being mentioned in the same breath as them. If you've ever craved a single sentence that summarises our precipitous decline, look no further.
Long term remains to be seen, I'm not convinced. This year (if it gets going again) and/or next year, they will go passed us based on what I have seen or not seen in our our case.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: capcom on April 15, 2020, 09:14:59 pm
REM ... it's the end of the (AFL) world as we know it :)
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: crashlander on April 16, 2020, 07:35:23 am
Our future depends on our midfield. If we can produce a top ruckman, we can go all the way.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: LP on April 16, 2020, 08:01:56 am
REM ... it's the end of the (AFL) world as we know it :)
 
Yes, it's important to remember this.

Healy, Brown and Pavlich are commenting based on the AFL they knew, not what it will become!

Nobody really knows who is going to be best suited to the Nouveau AFL genre, because we do not know what Nouveau AFL is yet!

There are some interesting tells though, clubs rallying against draft age change, rich clubs asking for assistance! In one case those two perspectives are even coincident, that in my opinion it is a sign of the old world desperately clinging onto power! They won't succeed as change is inevitable, so for them it could be disastrous, not just financially but tactically, the rules of the game are changing on all levels.

In other cases, it appears some clubs may be delusional, they are thinking business as usual in ignorance that usual no longer exists, Perhaps it's just they are in shock, a sort of corporate / social denial! They comment and behave like this fever situation has peaked, when it's really just the first sneeze of a long flu season!
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Baggers on April 16, 2020, 08:19:44 am
Yes, it's important to remember this.

Healy, Brown and Pavlich are commenting based on the AFL they knew, not what it will become!

Nobody really knows who is going to be best suited to the Nouveau AFL genre, because we do not know what Nouveau AFL is yet!

There are some interesting tells though, clubs rallying against draft age change, rich clubs asking for assistance! In one case those two perspectives are even coincident, that in my opinion it is a sign of the old world desperately clinging onto power! They won't succeed as change is inevitable, so for them it could be disastrous, not just financially but tactically, the rules of the game are changing on all levels.

In other cases, it appears some clubs may be delusional, they are thinking business as usual in ignorance that usual no longer exists, Perhaps it's just they are in shock, a sort of corporate / social denial! They comment and behave like this fever situation has peaked, when it's really just the first sneeze of a long flu season!

Yep. My concern is that Gil, as we well know, is drawn to fluff and glitz and will attempt to steer our game too far in that direction. The temptation to turn our game into something like that abomination of a pre-season 'thing' at the beginning of last year maybe too much for Gil. Hopefully the coaches, Presidents and CEOs will keep this bloke in check.

There is necessary change, then there is change for the sake of it... or to satisfy a particular, peculiar bias.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Professer E on April 16, 2020, 08:27:58 am
No draft,  or a lift in draft age will seriously impact a number of clubs that need to get new talent in the door fast.

Personally I sat F'em.  Do exactly that.    The AFL hasn't exactly gone out of their way to help us out in that area in the past decade.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: capcom on April 16, 2020, 11:42:27 am
When Virgin folds (as it will) just contemplate the reconstruction of flights to a QF schedule for interstate operations.  And to where?

IMHO, 2020 should be put to bed now so resource planning commences now in earnest for 2021.

It'll need a bloody decent panel dedicated to logistics, frameworks, sponsorships and competing teams. 

Action without bias and mature project managers.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 16, 2020, 11:59:28 am
When Virgin folds (as it will) just contemplate the reconstruction of flights to a QF schedule for interstate operations.  And to where?

IMHO, 2020 should be put to bed now so resource planning commences now in earnest for 2021.

It'll need a bloody decent panel dedicated to logistics, frameworks, sponsorships and competing teams. 

Action without bias and mature project managers.

I'm starting to think 2020 is a WOFT now. Those in charge will really earn their keep getting through this one.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2020, 12:58:42 pm
I'm starting to think 2020 is a WOFT now. Those in charge will really earn their keep getting through this one.
Agree...its going to be more like the old lightning premiership series and I'm not even sure if some of the better
players will even front up. Its more about getting the game back on TV and those advertising/sponsorship dollars
flowing to help keep teams afloat.
What disturbs me more is the Bulldogs being able to go it alone without AFL assistance and us having to crawl to the AFL, how far have we fallen that the Dogs are able to keep afloat and we would be drowning not waving without assistance...😒
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2020, 01:00:34 pm
When Virgin folds (as it will) just contemplate the reconstruction of flights to a QF schedule for interstate operations.  And to where?

IMHO, 2020 should be put to bed now so resource planning commences now in earnest for 2021.

It'll need a bloody decent panel dedicated to logistics, frameworks, sponsorships and competing teams. 

Action without bias and mature project managers.


Virgin was in trouble before Covid19, how they could sponsor anyone was beyond me when you looked at their balance sheet..
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: kruddler on April 16, 2020, 04:55:26 pm
Agree...its going to be more like the old lightning premiership series and I'm not even sure if some of the better
players will even front up. Its more about getting the game back on TV and those advertising/sponsorship dollars
flowing to help keep teams afloat.
What disturbs me more is the Bulldogs being able to go it alone without AFL assistance and us having to crawl to the AFL, how far have we fallen that the Dogs are able to keep afloat and we would be drowning not waving without assistance...😒

From what i can remember of that Caro article i was talking about earlier (cannot find it!) the dogs are better suited simply because they recently sold off a lot of land they owned IIRC.
Perfect timing for them in that regard and they'd be stuffed if it happened any other time.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2020, 05:33:36 pm
From what i can remember of that Caro article i was talking about earlier (cannot find it!) the dogs are better suited simply because they recently sold off a lot of land they owned IIRC.
Perfect timing for them in that regard and they'd be stuffed if it happened any other time.

Fair enough, thought it odd they would have the regular coin coming in to stay afloat unless they had some secret benefactor..
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 16, 2020, 07:37:12 pm
Does the money need to be paid back to the AFL by the clubs?
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: kruddler on April 16, 2020, 07:45:08 pm
Does the money need to be paid back to the AFL by the clubs?
Yep....with interest.

....but less than what the banks will slug you.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: LP on April 17, 2020, 07:48:52 am
I'm starting to think 2020 is a WOFT now. Those in charge will really earn their keep getting through this one.
They can get to the end of a Mickey Mouse season and give everybody a gold star for participation!

Can you imagine the crap that the fans of whichever club won the flag in that season would have to put up with, most wouldn't even want it on the official tally?
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: LP on April 17, 2020, 07:50:59 am
Yep....with interest.

....but less than what the banks will slug you.
 The AFL will allow the club loans to go into arrears until all other creditors have been satisfied, there is no fixed term.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Thryleon on April 17, 2020, 12:44:02 pm
They can get to the end of a Mickey Mouse season and give everybody a gold star for participation!

Can you imagine the crap that the fans of whichever club won the flag in that season would have to put up with, most wouldn't even want it on the official tally?

If we won flag 17 we would simply point to the scoreboard irrespective of what the rank and file have to say.

Winning is winning.

Its not like these circumstances are in our control.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: LP on April 17, 2020, 12:49:58 pm
If we won flag 17 we would simply point to the scoreboard irrespective of what the rank and file have to say.

Winning is winning.

Its not like these circumstances are in our control.
 Maybe, I'm sure the winners will spin it however they like but if it's a half-ar5ed competition it won't come with the same respect!
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: capcom on April 17, 2020, 12:59:40 pm
Utterly meaningless LP.  I'd be ashamed to claim it
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2020, 04:26:00 pm
Caro smashed our rebuild, coach(Bolton)recruiting and the admin, thinks we are more on track under Liddle though.
Warren Tredrea who wanted to come to Carlton pre salary cap breach said we have a good spine in the making but nothing in the middle to support Cripps and what we do have is too many light bodies.

I think we are better placed than Stkilda long term but need to import some bigger classier mids to support Cripps to take advantage of Curnow, McKay, McGovern and now Martin.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Baggers on April 17, 2020, 05:33:03 pm
Caro smashed our rebuild, coach(Bolton)recruiting and the admin, thinks we are more on track under Liddle though.
Warren Tredrea who wanted to come to Carlton pre salary cap breach said we have a good spine in the making but nothing in the middle to support Cripps and what we do have is too many light bodies.

I think we are better placed than Stkilda long term but need to import some bigger classier mids to support Cripps to take advantage of Curnow, McKay, McGovern and now Martin.

Yep, I saw the Tredrea & Co discussion and it was hard to argue with the points they made. If Silvagni had been successful at snagging at least 2 of Coniglio, Kelly, Smith, Rockcliff and so on then I reckon we'd be very serious for a tilt next year and beyond. But my aunt doesn't have knackers so she remains my aunt.

Fingers crossed we go hard and heavy this year for quality, big bodied mids.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: kruddler on April 17, 2020, 06:26:28 pm
Maybe, I'm sure the winners will spin it however they like but if it's a half-ar5ed competition it won't come with the same respect!

While we are on the topic...
Bombers have 16 flags....just like us.
However, 2 of those flags come with an asterisk from a mickey mouse competition.
Off the top of my head, 1897 and 1925 are the 2 years that no grand final was played (top of the ladder wins it IIRC) and they are the only 2 to ever be awarded without a grand final being played....and Bombers won them both.

So IF for some strange reason we do win it, we are still owed one. ;)

As long as the bombers don't.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: PaulP on April 17, 2020, 06:50:01 pm
1897 and 1924. In the former, the top four teams played each other once, and the team with the best record after those 3 games was the premier. Some time after this, the VFL adopted something resembling our current finals and GF system. For whatever reason, in 1924 they decided to experiment with the setup, and reverted to the pre 1897 system of the top 4 teams playing each other once. Richmond beat Essendon in the last scheduled final, but still won the flag, owing to a superior record in those final 3 matches.

Notwithstanding all of that, opposition supporters will always try to discredit flags of other teams, no matter what system is in place. They should all stand and be left as they are.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: crashlander on May 26, 2020, 02:48:14 pm
1897 and 1924. In the former, the top four teams played each other once, and the team with the best record after those 3 games was the premier. Some time after this, the VFL adopted something resembling our current finals and GF system. For whatever reason, in 1924 they decided to experiment with the setup, and reverted to the pre 1897 system of the top 4 teams playing each other once. Richmond beat Essendon in the last scheduled final, but still won the flag, owing to a superior record in those final 3 matches.

Notwithstanding all of that, opposition supporters will always try to discredit flags of other teams, no matter what system is in place. They should all stand and be left as they are.
Essendon won by percentage, as both Richmond and Essendon had 2 wins apiece.
Essendon then played a game against the VFA premiers, Footscray. Footscray obliterated them, and no, not all of Essendon's team was drunk. One of the reasons Hawthorn and the Dogs got an invite to the VFL.
That one, more than any other, is the dodgiest premiership ever. Even dodgier than the 1916 flag in WWI. There were 4 teams playing only. Carlton lost 2 games for the season. Fitzroy won 2 and drew one. We met in the GF and were beaten. The availability of players, especially during the finals, was very dodgy. Very dodgy, as well as the fact as there were no bench players at all.
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 26, 2020, 03:16:31 pm
Essendon won by percentage, as both Richmond and Essendon had 2 wins apiece.
Essendon then played a game against the VFA premiers, Footscray. Footscray obliterated them, and no, not all of Essendon's team was drunk. One of the reasons Hawthorn and the Dogs got an invite to the VFL.
That one, more than any other, is the dodgiest premiership ever. Even dodgier than the 1916 flag in WWI. There were 4 teams playing only. Carlton lost 2 games for the season. Fitzroy won 2 and drew one. We met in the GF and were beaten. The availability of players, especially during the finals, was very dodgy. Very dodgy, as well as the fact as there were no bench players at all.
Fitzroy finished last winning the wooden spoon then won the flag!
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: Baggers on May 27, 2020, 05:23:10 pm
Essendon won by percentage, as both Richmond and Essendon had 2 wins apiece.
Essendon then played a game against the VFA premiers, Footscray. Footscray obliterated them, and no, not all of Essendon's team was drunk. One of the reasons Hawthorn and the Dogs got an invite to the VFL.
That one, more than any other, is the dodgiest premiership ever. Even dodgier than the 1916 flag in WWI. There were 4 teams playing only. Carlton lost 2 games for the season. Fitzroy won 2 and drew one. We met in the GF and were beaten. The availability of players, especially during the finals, was very dodgy. Very dodgy, as well as the fact as there were no bench players at all.

It's a great general knowledge question that one... who won a VFL Premiership yet received the wooden spoon in the same year, and what year was it?
Title: Re: Next Flag: Carlton or St Kilda?
Post by: PaulP on May 27, 2020, 08:28:11 pm
It's a great general knowledge question that one... who won a VFL Premiership yet received the wooden spoon in the same year, and what year was it?

Fitzroy, 1916.