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Winning isn't everything

...it's the only thing!

“Winning isn’t everything… It’s the only thing” UCLA coach Red Sanders…with an assist by Vince Lombardi

For some time there has been a criticism of posters focusing too much on the win/loss side of things as opposed to the growth and development of the playing group. Maybe that criticism was justified, as impatience with the pace of the rebuild is a natural response for some of us after years of poor to average performance. as Bolton said after taking up the job...

“We don’t want to be defined by wins and losses; we want to be defined by our effort and application”

While the above was probably true in the early years of the rebuild eventually the focus had to shift to winning games. If we haven’t reached that point already surely the time is now. Every indication from our draft strategy last year to comments by Bolton that he largely has the list he wants indicate that winning games in 2019 would be an expectation.

Winning is important…
Winning makes supporters happy, losing makes supporters sad
Young supporters are drawn to winning sides.
Winning helps sponsorship
Winning helps membership.
Winning helps crowd numbers
Winning gives you a better ladder position.
You don’t play finals unless you win more games than most of the other sides (unless one of them are drug cheats)
You don’t win premierships these days if you don’t win games at the end of the year.
Winning shuts the critics up.
If you’re a coach, winning keeps your job safe.

As Chris Judd stated earlier in the year "We're in a results-based business. We need to win games and and we're all really clear on that."

The development can run in tandem but surely the focus now must be all-out on achieving a few wins.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Lods on
...it's the only thing!

“Winning isn’t everything… It’s the only thing” UCLA coach Red Sanders…with an assist by Vince Lombardi

For some time there has been a criticism of posters focusing too much on the win/loss side of things as opposed to the growth and development of the playing group. Maybe that criticism was justified, as impatience with the pace of the rebuild is a natural response for some of us after years of poor to average performance. as Bolton said after taking up the job...

“We don’t want to be defined by wins and losses; we want to be defined by our effort and application”

While the above was probably true in the early years of the rebuild eventually the focus had to shift to winning games. If we haven’t reached that point already surely the time is now. Every indication from our draft strategy last year to comments by Bolton that he largely has the list he wants indicate that winning games in 2019 would be an expectation.

Winning is important…
Winning makes supporters happy, losing makes supporters sad
Young supporters are drawn to winning sides.
Winning helps sponsorship
Winning helps membership.
Winning helps crowd numbers
Winning gives you a better ladder position.
You don’t play finals unless you win more games than most of the other sides (unless one of them are drug cheats)
You don’t win premierships these days if you don’t win games at the end of the year.
Winning shuts the critics up.
If you’re a coach, winning keeps your job safe.

As Chris Judd stated earlier in the year "We're in a results-based business. We need to win games and and we're all really clear on that."

The development can run in tandem but surely the focus now must be all-out on achieving a few wins.

Spot on.

You are now, officially, odds on to win 'Post Of The Year'.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Lods on
The development can run in tandem but surely the focus now must be all-out on achieving a few wins.

Sorry, but when BB had the team playing ugly and in with a chance to win many low scoring games if not for a little more experience, the AFL, AFL broadcasters, AFL media and many members bagged the hell out of him! Our club folded under the pressure, I gather the coach folded under internal pressures, changed the plan and got hammered again for doing what the critics had demanded!

Now the same critics(guys like Darcy, Ling, BT, Barrett) tell us how great it is to watch the Dawks or Dogs play even worse football as they dig ugly wins out of an otherwise crap season! And now that we are apparently playing better football they still bag us! When someone like Carey seems to be the voice of reason, that we are playing good to watch football, they bag him!

When Clarkson does it he's an innovative genius super-coach, when BB does it he's got no plan, no direction and no future! :o
The Force Awakens!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #3 –
Quote from: LP on
Sorry, but when BB had the team playing ugly and in with a chance to win many low scoring games if not for a little more experience, the AFL, AFL broadcasters, AFL media and many members bagged the hell out of him! Our club folded under the pressure, I gather the coach folded under internal pressures, changed the plan and got hammered again for doing what the critics had demanded!

Now the same critics(guys like Darcy, Ling, BT, Barrett) tell us how great it is to watch the Dawks or Dogs play even worse football as they dig ugly wins out of an otherwise crap season! And now that we are apparently playing better football they still bag us! When someone like Carey seems to be the voice of reason, that we are playing good to watch football, they bag him!

When Clarkson does it he's an innovative genius super-coach, when BB does it he's got no plan, no direction and no future! :o

But Clarkson wins.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #4 –
4 yeas in we need to be winning now. No ifs or but. 4 from 40 is so far from good enough it's ridiculous.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #5 –
Bulldogs stole a flag playing ugly horrible footy, Richmond got a flag by playing pressure/rebound footy and living off other teams mistakes.
Essendon play pretty footy where they create their own goals but its doesnt standup all the time, you need to be able to get down in the gutter and play dirty scrappy footy too and grind as well. Clarkson always has had his Hawthorn teams being able to play in the different modes....

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Baggers on
But Clarkson wins.

When we played ugly BB had how many wins in his first season of widely criticised ugly football?

7 wins with another 4 single digit losses, and BB did that with half the list the Dawks had, yet was bagged mercilessly!

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Clarkson always has had his Hawthorn teams being able to play in the different modes....

Not always, not when they were new at it, he nearly lost his job!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #7 –
Hmm.

I think we are getting better at playing ugly.

I think we are improving at playing pretty too.


Of the 8 games this season, 7 have been in it to win with a relatively inexperienced team and carrying blokes that are underdone or not ready to step up to afl level and impact for 4 quarters yet.

I think next year and the year after we are going to see some rather dramatic upward improvement from our team.

Anyone questioning Bolton's coaching need only look at how he has managed to get Levi casboult and Liam Jones contributing meaningfully against the best sides in the competition.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #8 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Bulldogs stole a flag playing ugly horrible footy, Richmond got a flag by playing pressure/rebound footy and living off other teams mistakes.
Essendon play pretty footy where they create their own goals but its doesnt standup all the time, you need to be able to get down in the gutter and play dirty scrappy footy too and grind as well. Clarkson always has had his Hawthorn teams being able to play in the different modes....

And with a heap of free kicks.
Phenomenal amount really

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2016&type=TT&sby=8

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #9 –
Quote from: LP on
When we played ugly BB had how many wins in his first season of widely criticised ugly football?

7 wins with another 4 single digit losses, and BB did that with half the list the Dawks had, yet was bagged mercilessly!

Not always, not when they were new at it, he nearly lost his job!

Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #10 –
Quote from: LP on
When we played ugly BB had how many wins in his first season of widely criticised ugly football?

7 wins with another 4 single digit losses, and BB did that with half the list the Dawks had, yet was bagged mercilessly!

Not always, not when they were new at it, he nearly lost his job!

I repeat, but Clarkson had them winning (and playing finals).

See EB1s post re Clarkson V BB first 4 years.

The time for justifying and rationalizing losses is over. Kaput. Finito. The end. (And I'm actually sure that's how BB wants it as well).

We should be thinking late charge for the 8 and/or to shape the 8... anything... anything to set a goal, an objective, an ambition... that involves winning.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #11 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...

The Clarkson rebuild is a myth, check out the Dawks 2004 list HERE

The Dawks rebuild started before Clarkson arrived, the majority of their list were seniors or already in their 3rd, 4th or 5th year!

Even players like Hodge and Mitchell had arrived a couple of years earlier, to add to a core group of seriously experienced seniors. All the kids had already benefited from starting their career besides 10 year players!

When you add to this they begged the AFL for priority pick compensation and were given it, 2001 when Croad left three years before Clarkson arrived, because losing Croad was going to cripple their club they claimed! That landed them Hodge!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #12 –
Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #13 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.

Yes, MM fecked it right up, and SOS arranged to clear him out before his son got drafted! ;D
The Force Awakens!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #14 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...

Yeah but they pinched that one early because all the moons alligned for them, where their draftees hit the ground running (Cyril) and their older draftees really hit their stride, along with their senior players making meaningful contributions.

To highlight this, the squad that played that day, and the year they were drafted:



    2. Roughead (2004) 3. Lewis (2004) 4. Ladson (2001) 5. Mitchell (2001) (c) 6. Williams (2000) 7. Osborne (2001 rookie draft) 8. Ellis (2005)  9. Crawford (1991) 10. Bateman (1999) 11. Young (2004 rookie draft)  12. Sewell (2003 rookie) 14. Birchall (2005) 15. Hodge (2001) 18. Guerra (1999 To port adelaide, 2004 recruited to Hawks) 23. Franklin (2004) 24. Croad (1997) 27. Gilham (2003 port, 2006 Hawthorn) 30. Brown (2001) 31. Dew (1997 PA, 2008 Hawthorn) 33. Rioli (2008) 34. Renouf (2006) 39. Campbell (2001)



The plan that they started under Peter Schwab, didn't really eventuate to a proper window of sustained success until 2012 when they lost the grand final to sydney.  The years following 2008 were as poor for Hawthorn as they were prior, because the club had to ditch the older blokes, and re adjust again with newer players and transition from the old.



People seem to think we have only had one rebuild that started years ago and continues.  IMHO, we started one when Malthouse arrived and it was poorly planned and executed where we ditched players who werent in it for the right reasons, and probably worked on getting the culture right first with limited success, and then we embarked on another one when SOS took over and I think even he has looked at it along with the club, and focussed on transforming the culture first, and is playing a much longer game with the list than anyone has anticipated.  His first iteration has only just started bearing fruit.  The initial Malthouse rebuild was the circuit breaker we needed to embark on a rebuild proper.


I have always stated, that I think if we got lucky we could be in the frame to jag one this year, but that's the thing with this approach.   It has been a calculated gamble that hasnt paid off as we would have hoped, hence why we are not sitting 4 and 4 and are instead 1 and 7.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson