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Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #45 –
Nice post TFIB. When it's all summarised like that, it's not a bad body of work, especially when one takes into account other factors, such as blokes like Shiel who don't want to come to us etc.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #46 –
Quote from: thefutureisblue on
Great post Tragic.

I decided to actually track how SOS used very limited currency on that 2015 list into what we have today.

Still on the list:
  • Marc Murphy
    Kade Simpson
    Matthew Kreuzer
    Patrick Cripps
    Liam Jones
    Sam Docherty
    Ed Curnow
    Dale Thomas
    Levi Casboult

All these players are still contributing to the current team when fit.



Retired/Delisted/Gone for nothing:
  • Andrew Walker
    Chris Judd
    Matthew Watson
    Robert Warnock
    Blaine Boekhorst
    Dillon Viojo-Rainbow
    Sam Rowe
    Kristian Jaksch
    Cameron Giles
    Nick Holman
    Jason Tutt
    Mark Whiley
    Clem Smith
    Jayden Foster
    Dennis Armfield
    Dylan Buckley
    Matthew Dick
    Nicholas Graham
    Andrejs Everitt
    Michael Jamison
    Simon White
    Andrew Carrazzo
    David Ellard

Lost some good players to retirement, and cleared a LOT of rubbish.
Probably the only one here that is still contributing at another team is Nick Holman.

Trades:
  • Troy Menzel, Lachlan Henderson > Phillips, Plowman, McKay
    Tom Bell > C.Curnow
    Chris Yarran > Cunningham
    Zach Tuohy > Polson, Marchbank, Pickett, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr
    Bryce Gibbs > O'Brien, Schumacher, De Koning, McGovern

This is where it gets interesting.
I think SOS has done EXTREMELY well in converting just a few players with currency into some quality and depth coming back. The players we got where either from trading the picks we received, or using those picks in the draft.

I can't see anyone making a reasonable argument that SOS could have done any better in going from that 2015 list to now.

Great points.

For extra emphasis and specifically for those people who like to quote 4 in 40, have a look at how many of this list actually have played significant footy for us since the start of 2016:

  • Marc Murphy - 53 games - missed half the season in 2016, and half a season in 2018
    Kade Simpson - 71 games - Probably the most consistent performer on this list, and lo and behold, one of the few that has been ever present at the ripe old age of 31+ for his last 71 games and has only missed a game or so per season.
    Matthew Kreuzer - 57 games - Missed half the season in 2018 and broke down frequently when he was in.
    Patrick Cripps - 66 games - Missed a chunk of 2017 with a leg break from memory.
    Liam Jones - 44 games -  learning a new role, was on the outer until he transformed into a full back 2 years ago.
    Sam Docherty - 44 games - (food for thought, has been out with an ACL for all of 2018 and will miss most of 2019)
    Ed Curnow - 63 games - missed half of last season with a fractured larynx??
    Dale Thomas - 64 games - missed a few per season I think from suspension more than injury.
    Levi Casboult - 58 games - enough said.  Not consistent enough but our only viable key forward that has been ever present for the last 4 years

The rest of our weekly starting 22 has been either kids, or stop gaps whilst we have our draftees coming along.


For anyone who is focussed on Bolton's record, have a look at these numbers coming from the most experienced component of our list in terms of a Carlton history and then take a cursory glance at say for arguments sake, Richmond. 

They boast a core group of players from before Cripps and Docherty's first game of AFL football.  Let me repeat that.  A core group of 13 players who are superstars of their team, from before our current best players (and captains) debut at AFL level.

For anyone who wants to complain that this is crap, really have a think about the following list of players:

Dylan Grimes
Dion Prestia
Dustin Martin
Brandon Ellis
Shaun Grigg
Jack Riewoldt
Trent Cotchin
Shane Edwards
David Astbury
Bachar Houli
Alex Rance
Tom Lynch

Contrast that with our list.  Process it.  Look at it.  Why don't we win more games?? The answer is really simple.  Our senior list is actually not that senior.

Id wager if you perform that exercise with any other squad in the AFL, you will not find that level of transition from old to new that is so significant in terms of difference in experience at this level.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #47 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
Great points.

For extra emphasis and specifically for those people who like to quote 4 in 40, have a look at how many of this list actually have played significant footy for us since the start of 2016:

  • Marc Murphy - 53 games - missed half the season in 2016, and half a season in 2018
    Kade Simpson - 71 games - Probably the most consistent performer on this list, and lo and behold, one of the few that has been ever present at the ripe old age of 31+ for his last 71 games and has only missed a game or so per season.
    Matthew Kreuzer - 57 games - Missed half the season in 2018 and broke down frequently when he was in.
    Patrick Cripps - 66 games - Missed a chunk of 2017 with a leg break from memory.
    Liam Jones - 44 games -  learning a new role, was on the outer until he transformed into a full back 2 years ago.
    Sam Docherty - 44 games - (food for thought, has been out with an ACL for all of 2018 and will miss most of 2019)
    Ed Curnow - 63 games - missed half of last season with a fractured larynx??
    Dale Thomas - 64 games - missed a few per season I think from suspension more than injury.
    Levi Casboult - 58 games - enough said.  Not consistent enough but our only viable key forward that has been ever present for the last 4 years

The rest of our weekly starting 22 has been either kids, or stop gaps whilst we have our draftees coming along.


For anyone who is focussed on Bolton's record, have a look at these numbers coming from the most experienced component of our list in terms of a Carlton history and then take a cursory glance at say for arguments sake, Richmond. 

They boast a core group of players from before Cripps and Docherty's first game of AFL football.  Let me repeat that.  A core group of 13 players who are superstars of their team, from before our current best players (and captains) debut at AFL level.

For anyone who wants to complain that this is crap, really have a think about the following list of players:

Dylan Grimes
Dion Prestia
Dustin Martin
Brandon Ellis
Shaun Grigg
Jack Riewoldt
Trent Cotchin
Shane Edwards
David Astbury
Bachar Houli
Alex Rance
Tom Lynch

Contrast that with our list.  Process it.  Look at it.  Why don't we win more games?? The answer is really simple.  Our senior list is actually not that senior.

Id wager if you perform that exercise with any other squad in the AFL, you will not find that level of transition from old to new that is so significant in terms of difference in experience at this level.

You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?

You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?

Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #48 –
Um rubbish - the 4th year group - en masse have done SFA really.

Charlie was good last year, tragically bad this year.

Weiters - the reverse of Charlie.

SOJ - finding his feet hopefully

Cuners - see SOJ (and throw in perennially injured)

Harry - some good, some bad (but overall ok)

Is that them or the Club's development of them?

SPS - one blinder then back in his box. His peers - Fish (very good overall), Setters (watch this space), Macreadie (WIP), Willo (i'm praying he's ok).

Murphy and ED Curnow have - overall  - been poor this year.

Simmo and Newman - both unlucky. Hopefully the latter will be back this weekend.

ed must play as a tagger (or not at all). Murphy would be better as a dedicated small forward with cameos in the guts....i think BB finally trialled this against the Pies after 8 rounds :(

The Guv - hopefully starting to hit his straps too.

Pickett and Kennedy - injury riddled.

That said, Kennedy should be playing before Dow imo.

The latter has lost his mojo....

Marchy and Plow - the former back to his best last weekend thankfully. Plow still has ??? over him.

Summary - very, very few are playing anywhere near their current best, let alone near their potential.

One notable exception is PC   O0 + Jones.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #49 –
Some non-win related progress...

Clearances:
2017 - 18th
2018 - 15th
2019 - 3rd

Disposals:
2017 - 18
2018 - 17
2019 - 14

Marks:
2017 - 4
2018 - 16
2019 - 8

Goals:
2017 - 17
2018 - 17
2019 - 13

Rebound 50s:
2017 - 12
2018 - 15
2019 - 2

Clearances is a massive win as is the rate by which we've been able to bounce the ball back out of our backline. The system down there has actually been pretty good. Goals & disposals going up. Not massively but we're heading in the right direction.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #50 –
I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by anyone else's arguments today.
We won't known for sure, if the rebuild is successful, until perhaps the end of 2022.

For me, the improvement we have made this season is a positive regardless of our current W/L record.

Putting it another way, which would you prefer?

(A) Our current performance this season;
OR
(B) 4 wins by 1pt (against Syd, GC, WB, NM) and 4 loses by 100pts (Rich, PA, Haw, Coll).

I'm picking (A).

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #51 –
Quote from: thefutureisblue on
I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by anyone else's arguments today.
We won't known for sure, if the rebuild is successful, until perhaps the end of 2022.

For me, the improvement we have made this season is a positive regardless of our current W/L record.

Putting it another way, which would you prefer?

(A) Our current performance this season;
OR
(B) 4 wins by 1pt (against Syd, GC, WB, NM) and 4 loses by 100pts (Rich, PA, Haw, Coll).

I'm picking (A).

C. Though D has merrit. Stuff it, E, all of the above.  ;)
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #52 –
Quote from: Baggers on
You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?

You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?

Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...

One persons excuse is another person's reason.

The difference?

Perspective.

Marriage councillors taught me that one.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #53 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
Marriage councillors taught me that one.

There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #54 –
Quote from: LP on
There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.

I detect a tender nerve in there somewhere

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #55 –
Quote from: LP on
There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.

Holy mackerel, Spotted One. You've just invalidated the best of intentions from, and dare I disagree, a very honourable and well meaning group of people. I have a few very close friends who are relationship counsellors and they're really decent folks in a really difficult -- often on a hiding to nothing -- profession.

I've been to a marriage guidance counsellor and he was a bloody ripper. Fair, smart and compassionate. Helped enormously... from the Bouverie Centre in Carlton.

Marriage / relationship guidance/counselling is no different to many other professions in that there are degrees of competence. If you're not happy with a certain counsellor, go to another one.

And... yep, there's more, a close family friend (hec, I'll name her though not wanting to embarrass her), Tammi Faraday, as a lawyer she gave up her time every week to journey to Springvale to donate her time giving legal advise to all manner of folks in trouble. Then she went to ACA (brilliant reporter). A courageous social activist. I can also give you the names of a number of champion lawyers from Freehills who give till it hurts helping folks.

Hec, Michael 'Dan' Mori, gave me enormous help in regard to certain unpleasant things that happened to me in the military and what I could do about it - social activist and deeply honourable. (He was the lawyer Lt Colonel in the Marines who represented prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and has since moved to Aust).
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #56 –
Quote from: Baggers on
Holy mackerel, Spotted One. You've just invalidated the best of intentions from, and dare I disagree, a very honourable and well meaning group of people. I have a few very close friends who are relationship counsellors and they're really decent folks in a really difficult -- often on a hiding to nothing -- profession.

I've been to a marriage guidance counsellor and he was a bloody ripper. Fair, smart and compassionate. Helped enormously... from the Bouverie Centre in Carlton.

I admit it was a gross generalization.

But it's certainly not the case that a noble profession means all practitioners are noble, in fact quite the opposite, many such professions that service the weak and vulnerable are very attractive to charlatans and predators. I'm sure the guilty are all repentant after the fact!

Quote from: Tragic on
I detect a tender nerve in there somewhere

Not first hand. I've had a relative who life was ruined by some people operating under those banners, counselors recommended by lawyers. It was a scam, one referring the other in a game of cheque book ping pong until the money ran out, at which time the true lack of care or compassion was exposed!

It's beholding on those noble professionals to clean up their own industry, and it is an industry, or else put up with being tarred by the same brush! Instead they whisper amongst themselves at conferences and do nothing official to call out the cheats and charlatans! They both need a professional standards board that isn't Micky Mouse!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #57 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.

I am not sure bringing in Boekhorst and Thomas while giving up blokes that Mick didn't want is considered a rebuild.    You must also consider what we gave up for those players.  


2015 Draft is the start of the rebuild for mine.   Picks have been used to get young elite talent.   Mature age players picked up for chump change.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #58 –
Quote from: Baggers on
You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?

You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?

Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...

Now that i am on a PC, I will respond with a little more depth to this.

The club is setting internal expectations on winning.  The players now need to snap out of green shoot territory (which was a stance that publically needed to be taken) and into lets win today territory.

The thing is, the progress towards winning is not a one off switch into win mode and you get there automatically.  It is part of the process.

Wins and losses are a result.  They are not the metric.  Metrics occur in games.  How we perform what we are trying to do and how well we do it, and what we can then improve upon to resolve those metrics.  All the wins/loss table shows us is that we have work to do still on the lifecycle of evolution of our footy club regarding how we do things (think reporting).



In a footy club this is a tricky process to navigate, because it all happens in varying capacities relative to the rest of the competition which is another reason why using wins and losses is a poor metric.  I.e. if you are doing things better than everyone else like Carlton in the 90's that doesn't mean that there is not a better way to do things and arguably would have delivered us more success than we experienced in the 90's. 

https://www.smartsheet.com/blog/demystifying-5-phases-project-management


Reporting will only be useful to understand the metrics.

I.e.  we might not be tackling much as a metric in some games.

If it were the bulldogs game, the report of win, explains the metric of tackle.  We were in control of the pill for longer periods than the bulldogs were, so we tackled less.  Do we need to improve the performance of our team to fix that metric??  Not when a game is played like that one necessarily. 

If the same was true of the North Melbourne game, it then tells us that we were not doing enough to close down our opposition.


"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #59 –
The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :

Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.

W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.