Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: townsendcalling on October 22, 2019, 07:13:40 am

Title: Best 22 so far
Post by: townsendcalling on October 22, 2019, 07:13:40 am
iFox Footy Best Team So Far

CARLTON

B: Lachie Plowman, Jacob Weitering, Kade Simpson

HB: Sam Docherty, Liam Jones, Nic Newman

C: Will Setterfield, Patrick Cripps, Sam Walsh

HF: Charlie Curnow, Levi Casboult, Sam Petrevski-Seton

F: Jack Silvagni, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Murphy, Ed Curnow

I/C: Zac Fisher, Mitch McGovern, Michael Gibbons, Caleb Marchbank

A few names NOT featured......Kennedy, Dow, O’Brien, Stocker.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on October 22, 2019, 07:36:55 am
Big Levi has become the true utility - listed at CHF AND in the "NOT featured' list  ;)

Will be a good thing if the likes of Dow and LOB have to earn a game through repeated, quality performances in the 2s.

Both were gifted way too many games in 2019.

Think Stocker will surprise next year and become a regular and obviously (imo) Martin will be a regular assuming he gets to Princes Park.

Tough for spots, that's for sure.

Willo, if fit, sits where?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on October 22, 2019, 07:58:37 am
Here's my take;

CARLTON

B: Lachie Plowman, Jacob Weitering, Nic Newman

HB: Sam Docherty, Liam Jones, Sam Petrevski-Seton

C: Paddy Dow, Ed Curnow, Charlie Curnow

HF: Zac Fisher, Mitch McGovern, Liam Stocker

F: Michael Gibbons, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Matthew Kreuzer, Patrick Cripps, Sam Walsh

I/C: Levi Casboult, Jack Silvagni, Marc Murphy, Lachie O'Brien[/quote]

Firstly, no disrespect to Townsendcalling, but there is no way in hell we'll move SPS off the HBF after his last season. If he'd played there the full season he would probably be in the AA squad!

There should be weeks when we cannot run all the talls, and there will be weeks when a Kennedy type comes in for a McKay or McGovern to be reshuffled. For example when we need an extra tall defender I won't be surprised to see McGovern or Casboult getting a run down back with Doc or Newman moving up to a wing. JSoS will be under some pressure, because without a D50 role I can see a type like Marchbank will be in the running for a F50 spot competing with JSoS and Setterfield for probably one available position.

I'm probably disrespecting Setterfield and Kennedy here, I think it's a coin toss between those two and JSoS who gets a starting run!

If he shows form it won't be long before Pittonet is in that team. Having him play and distribute himself around the ground with McGovern and McKay spreads and increases the reach of the angry zone!

We best hope for lots of games under the roof because we need to be marking the football with that list or we'll be run off our feet!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on October 22, 2019, 10:10:05 am
Neither Dow nor LOB warrant a spot unless form improves markedly.

Would have Stocker ahead of both come 2020 presently.

No Marchbank? It's a tough one...Plow certainly deserves a spot.

Agree SPS down back worked very well.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: madbluboy on October 22, 2019, 10:23:27 am
It would look a lot better with Papley.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on October 22, 2019, 10:41:17 am
Neither Dow nor LOB warrant a spot unless form improves markedly.

I think people are pretty biased about O'Brien, or willfully ignorant and impatient.

To support my argument, here is a compare (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=4&type=A&pid1=6492&pid2=3650&fid1=O&fid2=O) of two players at the same stage of their career.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 22, 2019, 11:01:07 am
Simpson, Docherty and SPS wouldnt give you much defense, they all chase the footy and dont really mind a man. I think SPS has to play further
up the ground and develop as a midfielder. Stocker is more my idea of a smaller defender and he should be getting games.

Dow is a fav of mine but like LOB his form hasnt warranted senior games IMHO and they both need to develop in the NB's

If we get Martin then I think Gibbons will more than likely be relegated to the NB's too, Fisher who is another fav probably needs
NB's time too but I think he has shown he can play well at the higher level and will be given more opportunities.

McGovern also needs to show more but given his fitness issues will grt s bit more time to show something...

Jack Silvagni has earned his spot in the best 22..
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on October 22, 2019, 11:08:56 am
Simpson, Docherty and SPS wouldnt give you much defense, they all chase the footy and dont really mind a man. I think SPS has to play further
up the ground and develop as a midfielder. Stocker is more my idea of a smaller defender and he should be getting games.

I can't fit Simmo in my list, I love him as a legend of the club but he'd have been cut by now if he was a Hawthorn player, we are sucked in by sentimentality.

I've Stocker in my squad as I see him as a swingman, and if he's on deck on the HBF as a left footer there is just no spot for Simmo.

Jack Silvagni has earned his spot in the best 22..

Don't shoot me for asking the question, but is that based on name or output?

I'm a Jack booster, I love his spirit and heart, he bleeds navy blue, he's got his limitations, but for me he starts on the bench.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 22, 2019, 11:15:58 am
I think people are pretty biased about O'Brien, or willfully ignorant and impatient.

To support my argument, here is a compare (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=4&type=A&pid1=6492&pid2=3650&fid1=O&fid2=O) of two players at the same stage of their career.

Its not about bias its about reality, the list is getting better and we have more options. If you are going to play like he does then you need to  be getting it 30 plus times like Gaff and using the ball at a high DE% . His job is the easiest on the park, make yourself available for the easy receive then use it well. With new players like Martin coming in and maybe something decent at pick 9 then its going to be very hard for LOB and Dow to command places in the best 22....even a player like Newnes who is a very good kick is going to put pressure on LOB for his place if we pick him up.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 22, 2019, 11:23:45 am
I can't fit Simmo in my list, I love him as a legend of the club but he'd have been cut by now if he was a Hawthorn player, we are sucked in by sentimentality.

I've Stocker in my squad as I see him as a swingman, and if he's on deck on the HBF as a left footer there is just no spot for Simmo.

Don't shoot me for asking the question, but is that based on name or output?

I'm a Jack booster, I love his spirit and heart, he bleeds navy blue, he's got his limitations, but for me he starts on the bench.

Jack will probably start on the bench and no my praise for Jack is based on output rather than his last name, I have my issues with SOS at times but his son has earned
his senior games and continued to improve. IMO he should start ahead of McGovern but the 800K man will get first crack given his fitness should be better and he has pressure on him
to deliver given his poor 2018.
Agree on Simpson but he will be a starter, dont see him playing NB's footy, if that looks a possibility then he will retire IMO.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on October 22, 2019, 11:26:59 am
Jack will probably start on the bench and no my praise for Jack is based on output rather than his last name, I have my issues with SOS at times but his son has earned
his senior games and continued to improve. IMO he should start ahead of McGovern but the 800K man will get first crack given his fitness should be better and he has pressure on him
to deliver given his poor 2018.
Agree on Simpson but he will be a starter, dont see him playing NB's footy, if that looks a possibility then he will retire IMO.

So Simmo will be the next Grigg?

In fairness EB1, I don't think Jack and Gov compete for the same spot, I think expecting that of Jack is putting to the sword.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Blue Moon on October 22, 2019, 02:52:34 pm
The concept of the best 22 is a bit of nonsense.  There are always injuries, loss of form and team balance to consider when picking the best 22 each week. It is really the best 30 that is important and how deep is your squad and whether you can cover injuries to players like Docherty and Rance. I do however like the fact that people are struggling to fit in the likes of Casboult, Plowman, Simpson, Dow, O'Brien, Kennedy, Silvagni, Fisher, Cunningham, Setterfield etc into our best 22.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: townsendcalling on October 22, 2019, 05:07:07 pm
Firstly, no disrespect to Townsendcalling, but there is no way in hell we'll move SPS off the HBF after his last season.

No disrespect taken LP, it's not my side, it's one that has been put together by the Fox Footy gurus!!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on October 22, 2019, 05:13:37 pm
No disrespect taken LP, it's not my side, it's one that has been put together by the Fox Footy gurus!!

There's the problem, Jason Dunstall, guaranteed to recommend the exact wrong thing for your club!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 22, 2019, 07:25:58 pm
So Simmo will be the next Grigg?

In fairness EB1, I don't think Jack and Gov compete for the same spot, I think expecting that of Jack is putting to the sword.

Yep on Simmo...reckon he will call it a day if form and injuries are making his selection problematic...I dont have an issue
with him going again in 2020 but he needs to be delivering and not being carried through the year.
Ditto for Eddie,he might be bringing in members but if he aint getting enough ball and just saluting a joe the goose goal to the crowd every second week then
you have apply the same logic.
Its a football club not happy acres retirement village and you get picked on performance..

Jack will bleed for the club and McGovern is a hired gun, always a place for a good hired gun and McGovern deserves some slack cut his way after breaking his back and
playing unfit but he needs to deliver to a higher standard than Jack IMO and I think Jack can play his role if he has to all be bit in a different way.

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on October 22, 2019, 10:01:53 pm
iFox Footy Best Team So Far

CARLTON

B: Lachie Plowman, Jacob Weitering, Kade Simpson

HB: Sam Docherty, Liam Jones, Nic Newman

C: Will Setterfield, Patrick Cripps, Sam Walsh

HF: Charlie Curnow, Levi Casboult, Sam Petrevski-Seton

F: Jack Silvagni, Harry McKay, Eddie Betts

FOLL: Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Murphy, Ed Curnow

I/C: Zac Fisher, Mitch McGovern, Michael Gibbons, Caleb Marchbank

A few names NOT featured......Kennedy, Dow, O’Brien, Stocker.

Despite the fact that it’s a Fox Footy product, I think that’s pretty close to our best 22 for round 1 of next season.  The only changes I would make are Samo to HBF, Gibbo to HFF and Simmo to the bench.

It will be good to see Kennedy, Dow, O’Brien, Stocker, Cuningham, Polson, De Koning and Pittonet putting pressure on for a spot in the 22.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: cookie2 on October 23, 2019, 07:15:54 am
No Martin?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2019, 08:51:39 am
No Martin?

We don’t have him yet and, on 2019 form, he’s not in our best 22.

The best I’m hoping for, if we do get him, is that he joins with Kennedy, Dow, O’Brien, Stocker, De Koning, Pittonet and others in putting selection pressure on those in the 22.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Sexybronco on October 23, 2019, 09:18:38 am
We don’t have him yet and, on 2019 form, he’s not in our best 22.

The best I’m hoping for, if we do get him, is that he joins with Kennedy, Dow, O’Brien, Stocker, De Koning, Pittonet and others in putting selection pressure on those in the 22.
His manager sounded quietly determined to get him to our club, would be disappointing to get him and for him not to be in our best 22.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2019, 10:46:49 am
His manager sounded quietly determined to get him to our club, would be disappointing to get him and for him not to be in our best 22.

True, but on current form he isn’t in Gold Coast’s best 22.  Hopefully, a change of scenery and a bit of mentoring from Eddie and he’ll be a different player.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on October 23, 2019, 11:53:57 am
True, but on current form he isn’t in Gold Coast’s best 22.  Hopefully, a change of scenery and a bit of mentoring from Eddie and he’ll be a different player.

Players do get dropped for reasons other than form you realise?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2019, 05:56:04 pm
Players do get dropped for reasons other than form you realise?

From the AFL website:

Quote
Martin's departure had looked inevitable after form and injury issues restricted him to just 16 games in 2019, with the midfielder dropped for the Suns' round 21 game and failing to return before season's end.

He was linked to Essendon last year but Gold Coast was unwilling to let him go, given the departures of Tom Lynch and Steven May, and held him to his contract.

Martin, from Western Australia, was recruited with the first pick overall in the 2012 mini-draft but has largely failed to meet high expectations since his debut in 2014.

While he finished third in the Suns' best and fairest award in both 2016 and 2017, Martin received just one Brownlow Medal vote across his first 81 games.

He did play some good footy in 2019 but put in some shockers too.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Amers on October 23, 2019, 10:16:38 pm
I have 2 forward spots to fill and 3 players to choose from, Kennedy, Fisher and Cunningham, who misses out?!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2019, 10:37:44 pm
I have 2 forward spots to fill and 3 players to choose from, Kennedy, Fisher and Cunningham, who misses out?!

I think that's a good sign Amers.  No-one is gifted a spot, and everyone has to be capable of filling several roles, as Hawthorn demonstrated when they were dominant.

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: laj on October 24, 2019, 09:32:35 am
Too hard! Getting too much depth to make me think.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: madbluboy on October 24, 2019, 12:28:06 pm
I will wait till after the preseason.

How fit will Marchbank or Charlie be? Will Dow get over his second year blues? Who are we going to pick up?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Professer E on October 24, 2019, 02:05:38 pm
Will Docherty make Christmas?   Will McG come back fat as Wilbur the pig?   Will Willos back let him return?

Yep,  wait until the PS games start.

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on October 24, 2019, 06:34:38 pm
Will Docherty make Christmas?   Will McG come back fat as Wilbur the pig?   Will Willos back let him return?

Yep,  wait until the PS games start.

Apparently the Gov is whippet-like  :)
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Jack Burton on October 24, 2019, 08:33:08 pm
I'll believe that when i see it
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Tragic on November 29, 2019, 04:29:49 pm
time to bring this sucker back to life.

i'm going to assume everyone is fit by round 1, including Charlie, but it's probably unlikely for him, but good news for someone like Kennedy.

also going to try and list our best depth players across each major line.

have intentionally left out our 1st year draftees, as they (finally) should not be needed, except for maybe a taste.

backs

B:         Plowman,     Weitering,     Simpson
HB:       Docherty,      Jones,         Newman

depth : Goddard (tall), Stocker (small), Marchbank (versatile) 

forwards

HF:       C Curnow,    McGovern,     Martin
F:         J Silvagni,     McKay,          Betts

depth : Kennedy (tall fwd mid), Gibbo (small fwd mid) , Cuningham (small fwd mid)

midfielders

C:         Newnes,         Cripps,        Walsh
FOLL:    Kreuzer,        Murphy,        E Curnow

depth : Pittonet (ruck), Dow (inside mid), LO'B (outside mid)

interchange     

SPS (mid/hbf/hff),   Fisher (mid/hff),    Casboult (ruck/chb/chf),  Setterfield (utility)

developing

TDK - must be getting close now.
Williamson - i have no doubt about his talent, just his injury issues.
Owies - more vfl required - but might be useful for us pretty soon.
Macreadie - could be on the bottom list by the end of 2020 if he doesn't show much.
BSOS - lots of development to go.
Finbar - as above.
Cottrell - as above.
 

last chance saloon

Lang - had his chance, hasn't really done much.
Polson  - as above.



 

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on November 29, 2019, 05:36:56 pm
Don't know exactly where on the field but I think Stocker will play more often than not in 2020.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonDorotich on November 29, 2019, 06:00:22 pm
Assuming a fully fit side, I’d go with a more transformative side with difficult decisions made on Simpson, Jones, eCurnow, Plowman and Newman, all of which turn the ball over. Cunningham is a gun if fit.

Marchbank Weitering Stocker
Williamson Casboult Docherty
Walsh Cripps Newnes
Betts Curnow McGovern
Martin McKay Cunningham

Kreuzer Setterfield Murphy

SPS, Dow , Fisher, DeKoning

Depth
Silvagni, OBrien, Jones, ECurnow, Simpson, Plowman, Newman, Pittonet
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on November 29, 2019, 06:35:16 pm
Assuming a fully fit side, I’d go with a more transformative side with difficult decisions made on Simpson, Jones, eCurnow, Plowman and Newman, all of which turn the ball over. Cunningham is a gun if fit.

Marchbank Weitering Stocker
Williamson Casboult Docherty
Walsh Cripps Newnes
Betts Curnow McGovern
Martin McKay Cunningham

Kreuzer Setterfield Murphy

SPS, Dow , Fisher, DeKoning

Depth
Silvagni, OBrien, Jones, ECurnow, Simpson, Plowman, Newman, Pittonet

This type of thinking (kids doing more heavy lifting, oldies in support / depth roles), is what got Bolton sacked.

I love it.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Lods on November 29, 2019, 06:59:24 pm
Nope...
Time to play the best side for the opposition each week.
No need 'getting games into kids'.
You earn a spot.
We play to win and let the youngsters develop naturally, we now have that luxury,....eventually they'll push the older players out.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on November 29, 2019, 07:02:50 pm
Nope...
Time to play the best side for the opposition each week.
No need 'getting games into kids'.
We play to win and let the youngsters develop naturally, we now have that luxury,....eventually they'll push the older players out.

All the noises coming out of the club indicate this. I suspect they will play it by ear - if we win games early on, they may introduce kids in a drip feed, minimal scenario. If we are struggling early, then maybe not. One thing you can say with near certainty is that en masse development of kids won't be happening any time soon.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Lods on November 29, 2019, 07:16:32 pm
One of the features of really good sides that seem to maintain their ladder position for years on end is this ability to let the kids develop at a lower level with the right amount of exposure when they're ready.

How much easier for the young players to develop with a talented group of mature players around them.
We threw our youngsters like Gibbs and Murphys to the wolves when they were young without support or protection.

We now have a group of older/mid aged players that can give a good account of themselves and are worthy of a place but will also help the development of the younger players.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Baggers on November 29, 2019, 07:20:18 pm
Nope...
Time to play the best side for the opposition each week.
No need 'getting games into kids'.
You earn a spot.
We play to win and let the youngsters develop naturally, we now have that luxury,....eventually they'll push the older players out.

Couldn't agree more. Best and most experienced side each week. The newbies are going to have to be burning it up in the Magoos to get a gig.

The only near automatic selections I can think of, assuming in form and body is good are: Weitering, Cripps Walsh, McGovern, Betts, Martin, McKay, Kreuzer, Setterfield, Murphy, SPS, Jones, E & C Curnow, Simpson, Plowman, Casboult, Gibbons, Docherty and Newman.

Hoping to see vast improvement/consistency (and injury free form) from: Cuningham, Fisher, Stocker, Williamson, Marchbank, SOJ, Dow, Newnes, Kennedy, Lang, DeKoning, O'Brien and Macreadie. (To early to tell with newbies and the other SOJ, Finbar). A miracle from Polson would be needed.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: laj on November 29, 2019, 07:26:13 pm
This type of thinking (kids doing more heavy lifting, oldies in support / depth roles), is what got Bolton sacked.

I love it.


Maybe not quite the team i'd pick but not that many kids there now in that side . Alot now have been here quite a few years.

Bolton got sacked because he was no good.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonDorotich on November 29, 2019, 07:49:08 pm
This type of thinking (kids doing more heavy lifting, oldies in support / depth roles), is what got Bolton sacked.

I love it.

If you’re in your third year, you’re no longer a kid and if that team doesn’t cut the mustard we’re looking at our sixth 5 year rebuild in a row.

If we’re in any way relying on Gibbons, E Curnow and Simpson we’ll be bottom eight. It’s all or nothing folks. We need to move on and it’s our time.

If he’s fit, Cunningham will be our best small forward
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on November 29, 2019, 09:09:13 pm
If you’re in your third year, you’re no longer a kid and if that team doesn’t cut the mustard we’re looking at our sixth 5 year rebuild in a row.

If we’re in any way relying on Gibbons, E Curnow and Simpson we’ll be bottom eight. It’s all or nothing folks. We need to move on and it’s our time.

If he’s fit, Cunningham will be our best small forward

Kids is a catch all term to describe players that haven't yet fully developed, whether that be age, games played, body shape / size, mental attributes etc.

Several weeks ago I spent 3 or 4 hours listening to a bunch of podcasts and videos, mainly from Champion Data. I took copious notes at the time, and if I get a chance I'll post those on here. I was mainly interested in their thoughts on 2019 generally and of course our season. Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data made it clear that there was no change in the way we played between Bolton and Teague. What changed was personnel, not game plan, and specifically, Murphy and Ed in the guts. This has a domino effect and leads to what Hoyne calls a forward half game, which is considered to be a pillar of what he calls "sustainable footy." At any rate, the point I'm making is that I don't think any of those old blokes, especially Murphy and Ed, will be displaced unless whoever displaces them matches or betters their output.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on November 29, 2019, 09:16:11 pm
Marchbank Weitering Plowman
Simpson Jones Docherty
Walsh Cripps Newnes
Martin Curnow McGovern
Betts McKay Cunningham

Kreuzer Setterfield Murphy

SPS, Silvagni, Newman, Casboult


Depth
Fisher, Kennedy, Williamson, OBrien, ECurnow, Pittonet, Dow, DeKoning, Stocker


Realistically Casboult starts round 1 at CHF with Charlie injured and probably Fisher added to the bench. Silvagni can play midfield or forward so he will play.

That is probably the best half back line in the league when fit and the fullback line is top rate as well. The forward line is good, the depth is good but the midfield still has too big of a gap between Cripps and the rest.

I'd love to see Stocker given a good crack at playing on the ball but unless he dominates preseason games that won't happen.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on November 29, 2019, 09:38:00 pm
If you’re in your third year, you’re no longer a kid and if that team doesn’t cut the mustard we’re looking at our sixth 5 year rebuild in a row.

If we’re in any way relying on Gibbons, E Curnow and Simpson we’ll be bottom eight. It’s all or nothing folks. We need to move on and it’s our time.

If he’s fit, Cunningham will be our best small forward

Yeah if those so called "kids" haven't won a brownlow each by 21 we should sack them immediately.
Gibbons is a running machine - I think we'd miss him a lot if he wasn't in the team.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on November 29, 2019, 09:40:19 pm
Here is my best 22, and my second best 22

BDochertyWeiteringPlowman
B2PolsonGoddardMacreadie
HBNewmanJonesSimpson
HB2StockerMarchbankWilliamson
CNewnesCrippsMartin
C2PhilpsKennedyObrien
HFMurphyCharlieCuningham
HF2KempCasboultHoney
FFBettsMcKayMcGovern
FF2LangDe KoningOwies
RKreuzerWalshEd
R2PittonetDowGibbons
INTSPSJackFisherSetterfield
INT2RamsayBenCottrellOdwyerPhillips
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on November 29, 2019, 10:18:23 pm
There's an article in the Age where Martin is quite adamant that he'll be playing forward next year.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-recruit-martin-firm-on-expectations-20191129-p53fga.html
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on November 29, 2019, 10:23:19 pm
There's an article in the Age where Martin is quite adamant that he'll be playing forward next year.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-recruit-martin-firm-on-expectations-20191129-p53fga.html

He said it himself in today;s interview.

But he'll play mid too.

Have you see - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYmJ4Nj5Znk&fbclid=IwAR2awxylDbcUTVTntJ18a9pIvbDvQmwnNZ10RDWXRafZlH0f-5o6P2C7nlk
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 29, 2019, 10:23:35 pm
There's an article in the Age where Martin is quite adamant that he'll be playing forward next year.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-recruit-martin-firm-on-expectations-20191129-p53fga.html

I think he should start on the wing and run forward but the Eddie working with Martin up forward theory might be what the club want.
Think my man Mick Gibbons might be the loser in that equation and be out of a senior job.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonDorotich on November 29, 2019, 11:23:30 pm
Yeah if those so called "kids" haven't won a brownlow each by 21 we should sack them immediately.
Gibbons is a running machine - I think we'd miss him a lot if he wasn't in the team.
[/quote

You left gibbons out of your best 22, do he ain’t that important.

Also, given there are only a couple of differences between the sides that we posted, you have to agree that we’ll be in a spot of bother if the team I posted isn’t competitive.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on November 30, 2019, 07:23:50 am
He said it himself in today;s interview.

But he'll play mid too.

Have you see - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYmJ4Nj5Znk&fbclid=IwAR2awxylDbcUTVTntJ18a9pIvbDvQmwnNZ10RDWXRafZlH0f-5o6P2C7nlk

Wow. Listening to that, he sounds like someone who might even be worth a first rounder.  8)
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: capcom on November 30, 2019, 07:53:42 am
One impressive tape Paul
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on November 30, 2019, 04:11:31 pm
Yeah if those so called "kids" haven't won a brownlow each by 21 we should sack them immediately.
Gibbons is a running machine - I think we'd miss him a lot if he wasn't in the team.
[/quote

You left gibbons out of your best 22, do he ain’t that important.

Also, given there are only a couple of differences between the sides that we posted, you have to agree that we’ll be in a spot of bother if the team I posted isn’t competitive.

Definitely agree.
The club looks set to push every opponent each week. There is quality and depth in most positions. The big gap is midfield still. If Setterfield and Martin and Dow for example all come out next season and start averaging 25+ pos we might push right up the ladder. Otherwise we'll still be middle of the road. The midfield is still waiting on the kids.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on November 30, 2019, 05:41:34 pm
Think my man Mick Gibbons might be the loser in that equation and be out of a senior job.

If we are going for more run it won't be Gibbons that loses his job! ;)
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: sandsmere on December 01, 2019, 07:02:16 am
If we are going for more run it won't be Gibbons that loses his job! ;)

Yes. If Gibbons can't get a game we will have a good side.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Amers on December 01, 2019, 10:42:22 am
Right, let me have a crack at this!

Best, oldest, most experienced 22
FB; L. Plowman, L. Jones, C. Marchbank
HB; S. Docherty, J. Weitering, K. Simpson
C; W. Setterfield, E. Curnow, J. Newnes
R; M. Kreuzer, P. Cripps, M. Murphy
HF; J. Silvagni, C. Curnow, J. Martin
FF; M. McGovern, H. Mackay, E. Betts
Int; N. Newman, S. Petrevski-Seton, S. Walsh, M. Gibbbons

There are about half a dozen guys fighting for that last spot, I gave it Gibbons for his age and ( mostly VFL!) experience.

Best of the rest
FB; B. Silvagni, H. Goddard, T. Williamson
HB; L. Stocker, H. Macreadie, B. Kemp
C; L. O'Brian, M. Kennedy, Z. Fisher
R; M. Pittonet, P. Dow, D. Cuningham
HF; C. Polson, L. Casboult, D. Lang
FF; F. Phillips, T. De Koning, F. O'Dwyer
Int; S. Philp, S. Ramsay, M. Cottrell, M. Owies, J. Honey

We have an over supply of Mids and a shortage of half backs, its possible Stocker may get more time back there than in the midfield.
As much as Kemp says he wants to play midfield, I reckon his best position will be as a Grant Birchall type half back and I think he will be very good in that role. 

With Kerr gone and no KPP picked up in the drafts, we are also a little light on for KPP forwards.

Our midfield depth is staring to look good, and many of our mids can go forward too which is helpful!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 01, 2019, 10:51:03 am
Quote
FB; L. Plowman, L. Jones, C. Marchbank
HB; S. Docherty, J. Weitering, K. Simpson
C; W. Setterfield, E. Curnow, J. Newnes
R; M. Kreuzer, P. Cripps, M. Murphy
HF; J. Silvagni, C. Curnow, J. Martin
FF; M. McGovern, H. Mackay, E. Betts
Int; N. Newman, S. Petrevski-Seton, S. Walsh, M. Gibbbons

That team could win a flag or three.

Swap out Betts for Papley in 2021.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Amers on December 01, 2019, 10:59:55 am
That team could win a flag or three.

Swap out Betts for Papley in 2021.

Here's hoping !!  ;D
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: yobbarella on December 01, 2019, 11:25:56 am
Personally I would like for Eddie to still be there. If he is it it would be because he demands a spot.

Can imagine with Martin, a trio of headaches for the opposition - beautiful to watch, and a great space for our younger forwards to learn and enjoy their footy.

If Martin can get close to the suns tape posted by flyboy77 - wow !
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: capcom on December 01, 2019, 12:26:47 pm
Sam Walsh on the bench?  I think not.  Same with Casboult.  Cannot see it.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Lods on December 01, 2019, 12:41:01 pm
Sam Walsh on the bench?  I think not.  Same with Casboult.  Cannot see it.

I think 'the bench' is no longer seen as separate to the starting 18.
It's not necessarily the case that your bench players are 'fringe' players.
They may be amongst your best.
In most cases they're just there as part of the midfield rotations.

You're probably not going to name your captain(s) on the bench so you won't see Cripps or Docherty listed there but all the others (non KPP half forwards, half backs and mids) are just 'the mix.'
Being named there doesn't necessarily mean you're not best 18.
It's more to do with match-ups, starting impact, taking some early heat or grunt work, as to who starts and that depends to a large extent on who you're playing.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 01, 2019, 01:08:53 pm
I think 'the bench' is no longer seen as separate to the starting 18.
It's not necessarily the case that your bench players are 'fringe' players.
They may be amongst your best.
In most cases they're just there as part of the midfield rotations.

You're probably not going to name your captain(s) on the bench so you won't see Cripps or Docherty listed there but all the others (non KPP half forwards, half backs and mids) are just 'the mix.'
Being named there doesn't necessarily mean you're not best 18.
It's more to do with match-ups, starting impact, taking some early heat or grunt work, as to who starts and that depends to a large extent on who you're playing.

x2
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: sandsmere on December 01, 2019, 01:36:51 pm
I think 'the bench' is no longer seen as separate to the starting 18.
It's not necessarily the case that your bench players are 'fringe' players.
They may be amongst your best.
In most cases they're just there as part of the midfield rotations.

You're probably not going to name your captain(s) on the bench so you won't see Cripps or Docherty listed there but all the others (non KPP half forwards, half backs and mids) are just 'the mix.'
Being named there doesn't necessarily mean you're not best 18.
It's more to do with match-ups, starting impact, taking some early heat or grunt work, as to who starts and that depends to a large extent on who you're playing.

Spot-on Lods.

Tigers, Cats, West Coast and others have been doing that for a while now.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: capcom on December 01, 2019, 01:57:13 pm
I think 'the bench' is no longer seen as separate to the starting 18.
It's not necessarily the case that your bench players are 'fringe' players.
They may be amongst your best.
In most cases they're just there as part of the midfield rotations.

Lods, that much is obvious.  Has been since Pontious was a pilot :)  I have watched the game a little bit.  But Casboult not in the best 22?  IMO, forget it UNLESS a run of poor form warrants it ... and with him it doesn't
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: townsendcalling on December 01, 2019, 05:32:10 pm
I would like to see one of our key aims for next year is to NOT play any of our new youngsters in the firsts.  If this happens, it would mean that we have had very few key injuries, our classes of ‘16, ‘17 and ‘18 have all taken a large next step and our kids are given time to physically develop and build up some genuine form, especially Kemp. Let him recover from his knee, pick up the pace in the NBs and have a full preseason prior to the 2021 season (watch Will Setterfield this year!) Time for our kids to develop like other teams develop their kids. Slow and steady wins the race.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2019, 06:20:50 pm
I would like to see one of our key aims for next year is to NOT play any of our new youngsters in the firsts.  If this happens, it would mean that we have had very few key injuries, our classes of ‘16, ‘17 and ‘18 have all taken a large next step and our kids are given time to physically develop and build up some genuine form, especially Kemp. Let him recover from his knee, pick up the pace in the NBs and have a full preseason prior to the 2021 season (watch Will Setterfield this year!) Time for our kids to develop like other teams develop their kids. Slow and steady wins the race.

If slow and steady wins the race, we should have the next 10 flags in the bag. Notwithstanding the staggering body count of players, coaches etc. that have come and gone, our buildup has been positively glacial.

I agree wholeheartedly though. I'd like to see the "Hawthorn apprenticeship" model at Carlton.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Amers on December 01, 2019, 09:22:53 pm
Lods, that much is obvious.  Has been since Pontious was a pilot :)  I have watched the game a little bit.  But Casboult not in the best 22?  IMO, forget it UNLESS a run of poor form warrants it ... and with him it doesn't

Obviously I don't see Casboult as best 22, I like all the players I have chosen down the spine ahead of him, however, if any of our spine either lose form or are not fit to play, Casboult IMO would be 1st called apon to fill the spot. He is most certainly an invaluable sqad member...... IMO anyway.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: capcom on December 01, 2019, 09:31:26 pm
Obviously I don't see Casboult as best 22, I like all the players I have chosen down the spine ahead of him, however, if any of our spine either lose form or are not fit to play, Casboult IMO would be 1st called apon to fill the spot. He is most certainly an invaluable sqad member...... IMO anyway.

Amers.  :)  No issue whatsoever.  Not everyone has to share the same opinion.  I see his height as a major advantage.  He's playing his best football atm.  That's all
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Tragic on December 02, 2019, 02:33:28 am
big Cas is just one of those blokes who was a late pick and improved his 5% each season.  not many players are lucky enough to have the opportunity and lack of competition for spots to do that for 10 years.  now after all those gradual improvements he's a pretty bloody good player.  handy backup ruck, capable fwd, and surprise surprise a very good kpd.  he plays like a senior player now. i love the big fella and am glad we kept him despite all those times we almost didn't.  he's got his flaws, but over time he's slowly ironing out his wrinkles.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 13, 2019, 11:42:36 am
Ins and Outs for round 1 from our round 23 team 2019... maybe

OUT:

Deluca, Josh
Dow, Paddy
Fisher, Zac
Kennedy, Matthew
OBrien, Lochie
Plowman, Lachie
Thomas, Dale

IN:

Caleb MARCHBANK
Liam JONES
Sam DOCHERTY
Jack NEWNES
Jack MARTIN
Charlie CURNOW
Eddie BETTS

If everyone were available that would be a far stronger team. A lot stronger back and forward line.

A lot less relying on young midfielders to play out of position as forwards or back flanks.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 13, 2019, 12:00:55 pm
Ins and Outs for round 1 from our round 23 team 2019... maybe

OUT:

Deluca, Josh
Dow, Paddy
Fisher, Zac
Kennedy, Matthew
OBrien, Lochie
Plowman, Lachie
Thomas, Dale

IN:

Caleb MARCHBANK
Liam JONES
Sam DOCHERTY
Jack NEWNES
Jack MARTIN
Charlie CURNOW
Eddie BETTS

If everyone were available that would be a far stronger team. A lot stronger back and forward line.

A lot less relying on young midfielders to play out of position as forwards or back flanks.

In a perfect world, where everyone is fit and available, Tom Williamson plays
Tough, fast and can kick the footy
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 13, 2019, 01:05:14 pm
I think Fisher and Plowman will both play round 1, the latter did well in the best and fairest from memory and I just think Fisher will be persisted with and being a mate of Cripps
might help his cause too.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 13, 2019, 01:23:54 pm
In a perfect world, where everyone is fit and available, Tom Williamson plays
Tough, fast and can kick the footy

Who goes out? Docherty / Simpson / Newman?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 13, 2019, 01:25:26 pm
I think Fisher and Plowman will both play round 1, the latter did well in the best and fairest from memory and I just think Fisher will be persisted with and being a mate of Cripps
might help his cause too.

I couldn't fit them in.

B   Caleb MARCHBANK   Liam JONES   Nic NEWMAN
         
HB   Kade SIMPSON   Jacob WEITERING   Sam DOCHERTY
         
C   Jack NEWNES   Patrick CRIPPS   Sam WALSH
         
HF   David CUNINGHAM   Harry MCKAY   Jack MARTIN
         
F   Mitch MCGOVERN   Charlie CURNOW   Eddie BETTS
         
R   Matthew KREUZER   Will SETTERFIELD   Marc MURPHY
         
IC   Jack SILVAGNI   Michael GIBBONS   Sam PETREVSKI-SETON
   Levi CASBOULT      
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 13, 2019, 01:36:54 pm
I couldn't fit them in.

B   Caleb MARCHBANK   Liam JONES   Nic NEWMAN
         
HB   Kade SIMPSON   Jacob WEITERING   Sam DOCHERTY
         
C   Jack NEWNES   Patrick CRIPPS   Sam WALSH
         
HF   David CUNINGHAM   Harry MCKAY   Jack MARTIN
         
F   Mitch MCGOVERN   Charlie CURNOW   Eddie BETTS
         
R   Matthew KREUZER   Will SETTERFIELD   Marc MURPHY
         
IC   Jack SILVAGNI   Michael GIBBONS   Sam PETREVSKI-SETON
   Levi CASBOULT

I think Fisher is ahead of Cuningham and Newnes in the pecking order, Plowman I think would get the nod ahead of Levi or even Jack.
Dont get me wrong I like your team as its well balanced and players like Levi and Jack earned their spots from last season but I'm not sure the selectors will
see it that way..
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: capcom on December 13, 2019, 02:00:07 pm
Casboult easily in the starting lineup.  Docherty?  No.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on December 13, 2019, 02:36:45 pm
Casboult easily in the starting lineup.  Docherty?  No.

Why no Docherty ?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: capcom on December 13, 2019, 03:44:54 pm
Why no Docherty ?

Paul, I doubt he'll be ready and even if he is, he's gonna need quite some time to regain touch.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 13, 2019, 05:54:40 pm
Who goes out? Docherty / Simpson / Newman?

Simpson or Newman
Don’t get me wrong, I’m saying if everyone is absolutely 100%.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 13, 2019, 07:08:09 pm
Paul, I doubt he'll be ready and even if he is, he's gonna need quite some time to regain touch.

Charlie is unlikely to be ready. This is assuming everyone is fit.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 13, 2019, 09:32:20 pm
I'll be gobsmacked, if after de-listing Daisy, that Newman isn't one of the 1st picked.

He's about the only aggressive player we've got in D50.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on December 13, 2019, 09:47:49 pm
Ins and Outs for round 1 from our round 23 team 2019... maybe

OUT:

Deluca, Josh
Dow, Paddy
Fisher, Zac
Kennedy, Matthew
OBrien, Lochie
Plowman, Lachie
Thomas, Dale

IN:

Caleb MARCHBANK
Liam JONES
Sam DOCHERTY
Jack NEWNES
Jack MARTIN
Charlie CURNOW
Eddie BETTS

If everyone were available that would be a far stronger team. A lot stronger back and forward line.

A lot less relying on young midfielders to play out of position as forwards or back flanks.

Poor old Plow still can;t get any love.

He just finished 3rd in our B+F and people still want to boot him from the side.

He'll be picked. Marchy will need to earn his stripes back.


As for Willo which people keep bringing up.

Is he better than a 300+ gamer in Simpson?
Is he better than our (co)captain in Docherty?
Is he better than super consistent Newman?

He has some talent....but if people think he is displacing those boys, it'd be due to injury.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 13, 2019, 09:51:28 pm
Poor old Plow still can;t get any love.

He just finished 3rd in our B+F and people still want to boot him from the side.

He'll be picked. Marchy will need to earn his stripes back.

x2, I'm not buying into this debate because most of the posts are just lists of favourite players with no regard to team format or function.

On game style, considering the coach his playing history and game style, I suspect Newman and Plowman are walk up starts.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Thryleon on December 13, 2019, 11:50:55 pm
Newnes will be a walk up start too.

As will martin.  If the kids are playing they'll have to knock out a young star, or bang the door down to get a game next season.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 16, 2019, 08:31:31 am
Poor old Plow still can;t get any love.

He just finished 3rd in our B+F and people still want to boot him from the side.

He'll be picked. Marchy will need to earn his stripes back.


As for Willo which people keep bringing up.

Is he better than a 300+ gamer in Simpson? When fully fit, I think he will be.
Is he better than our (co)captain in Docherty? No
Is he better than super consistent Newman? When fully fit, I think he will be.

He has some talent....but if people think he is displacing those boys, it'd be due to injury.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 16, 2019, 09:40:52 am
Poor old Plow still can;t get any love.

He just finished 3rd in our B+F and people still want to boot him from the side.

He'll be picked. Marchy will need to earn his stripes back.


As for Willo which people keep bringing up.

Is he better than a 300+ gamer in Simpson?
Is he better than our (co)captain in Docherty?
Is he better than super consistent Newman?

He has some talent....but if people think he is displacing those boys, it'd be due to injury.

So you prefer Plow - that's fine - but who is he replacing - it is bl00dy tough to find a spot:

B   Caleb MARCHBANK   Liam JONES   Nic NEWMAN
        
HB   Kade SIMPSON   Jacob WEITERING   Sam DOCHERTY

I think he would be head to head with Marchbank and that's a no-brainer for me. Plow would be the first one called on if there was an injury but I can't see him in the best 22 even if he did finish 3rd in the B&F.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 16, 2019, 11:28:36 am
Simpson should probably make way if we are to develop players and improve for the future but he will be picked ahead of others because of his status.
I think he should have retired and been retained in a part time coaching role.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 16, 2019, 11:36:29 am
Simpson should probably make way if we are to develop players and improve for the future but he will be picked ahead of others because of his status.
I think he should have retired and been retained in a part time coaching role.

Agree, it was probably due to the injuries to Doc and Williamson that they kept him on.
Hopefully both are fully fit for 2020 and we see the next generation back line
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 16, 2019, 11:50:27 am
Agree, it was probably due to the injuries to Doc and Williamson that they kept him on.
Hopefully both are fully fit for 2020 and we see the next generation back line

Assuming there was some other reason they chopped Daisy.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 16, 2019, 12:37:58 pm
Samo also training as half-back this preseason. If all those backmen are fit come round 1 and Samo locks down HBF we have a fairly strong VFL team potentially featuring Plowman, Marchbank and Williamson (or similar).
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 16, 2019, 12:45:39 pm
Back six is tough.

Assuming all are fit:

1. Jones and Weiters are locks. The KPPs.
2. Doc is a lock presuming fitness and some form.
3. Last three spots - SPS, Simmo, Newman, Newnes, Marchy, Willow and Plow.

I'll pick 4 of that lot (given Newnes and SPS are far more versatile as to where they can play).

I'll go for Plow (as the 3rd tall), Sammo (gun in waiting wherever he plays), Jack N and Newman (both tough and hard running). Newman as the main lock down defender.

One on the bench.

Noting Marchbank will undoubtedly be nursed back and Willo needs to prove himself in the 2s.

Simmo as back up!  :o
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: sandsmere on December 16, 2019, 02:46:14 pm
A lot seem to be leaving Plowman out.

He came 3rd in the B&F last season didn't he ?

Definate starter first up if he's fit.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: rocky on December 16, 2019, 03:02:42 pm
I've thought long and hard over this one, well actually during my lunch break, and I've decided I'll only pick players who are not under any sort of injury cloud.

Injury cloud players (I think) : McKay, Docherty, Newman, C. Curnow, Kennedy

There's still a bit of time between now and round 1 but to tell you the truth if I didn't set some sort of criteria the task would be near impossible. Pretty good signs there.
Anyway I've also included reason's why on each. Here it is for what it's worth;

L. Plowman         L. Jones      C. Marchbank      

Plowman: Surely a guy who come 3rd in the B&F can at least get a gig in the BP?
Jones : Gotta say was super impressed by his comeback after a pretty nasty injury. Full pre-season should have him back to his best
Marchbank : Haven't heard of any injuries thus far so I can only assume he's fit. If so deserves a spot. Versatile

S. Petrevski-Seton      J. Weitering      K. Simpson   

Petrevski-Seton : Cannot exclude. Reasonable good year this year and looking for further improvement.
Weitering : Definite lock.
Simpson : Why would the club extend the champs contract without playing him. Has to be in.

J. Newnes         S. Walsh      Z. Fisher
Newnes : Good enough to get a game ahead of Lang and if he could get a run surely this bloke gets the job.
Walsh : No-brainer
Fisher : Really, really struggled with this one but I'm giving him a "year after some schmuck broke my leg"  excuses. Last chance

W. Setterfield         L. Casboult      J. Martin   

Setterfield : Has done enough and another handy utility type
Casboult : Another one who deserves the gig and his versatility ensures his selection.
Martin : After all the drama, could not possibly see this bloke missing out round one.

E. Betts         M. McGovern      M. Gibbons                  
            
Betts : Ensures a MASSIVE crowd through the gate round 1
McGovern : Hoping he will repay the club now that he appears to be fitter?
Gibbons : He's earned his spot also based on consistent form through 2019

         
M. Kreuzer   The Barometer
P. Cripps   The Brownlow Medalist
M. Murphy   The Born-again


J. Silvagni   E. Curnow   L. Stocker   P. Dow

Silvagni : Will be keen to stick it up certain "club" individuals
Curnow : The Duracell bunny
Stocker : Chance to finally show us his capabilities, I hope
Dow : Copped a bit of flack but he still good enough to get a spot ahead of others

Thereabouts but need to work through VFL
Cuningham
O'Brien
Goddard
Williamson
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 16, 2019, 04:47:37 pm
Newnes is a Wing/HFF, he's not a HBF.

If any of the new players are going to play off the HBF it's most likely to be Martin.

What does Simmo do if he finds himself in the Maggoos Rnd 1?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2019, 04:58:29 pm
Assuming everyone is fit:

Defenders:
Newman, Weitering, Plowman, Petrevski-Seton, Docherty, Jones, Simpson, Newnes

Midfielders:
Setterfield, Cripps, Walsh, Casboult, Kreuzer, Curnow, E, Murphy   

Forwards:
Silvagni, J, McKay, Betts, Martin, Curnow, C, McGovern, Gibbons   

Stiff to miss out:
Stocker, Marchbank, Dow, Cuningham, Kennedy, Williamson, O'Brien

There's a lot of versatility in our list now with several players more than capable of holding down roles as forwards, defenders or midfielders.

Newnes is a Wing/HFF, he's not a HBF.

Newnes describes himself as a defender/midfielder in the article I quoted from LP (now behind the paywall).  He said that he'll play any role apart from defensive half forward,

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 16, 2019, 05:24:42 pm
Assuming everyone is fit:

Defenders:
Newman, Weitering, Plowman, Petrevski-Seton, Docherty, Jones, Simpson, Newnes

Midfielders:
Setterfield, Cripps, Walsh, Casboult, Kreuzer, Curnow, E, Murphy   

Forwards:
Silvagni, J, McKay, Betts, Martin, Curnow, C, McGovern, Gibbons   

It seems to make sense if you just picked a team on best in a role but where is the speed?

That is one of the slowest possible teams you can build from our list!

Newnes describes himself as a defender/midfielder in the article I quoted from LP (now behind the paywall).  He said that he'll play any role apart from defensive half forward,

Hope he proves me wrong, if he does what of Simmo?

I think it's a big assumption to have Doc as a defender, he might not have the speed/run he had previously. I can see him turning over the HBF responsibilities to Stocker, SPS, O'Brien and others and heading into the midfield to support Ed and sMurph.

I expect guys like Dow, Fisher and Newnes will be the run and speed on the wings, no matter where they think they are best suited.

I've based this purely on the perceived attributes of certain players and what we lack as a group.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 16, 2019, 06:11:47 pm
It seems to make sense if you just picked a team on best in a role but where is the speed?

That is one of the slowest possible teams you can build from our list!

Hope he proves me wrong, if he does what of Simmo?

I think it's a big assumption to have Doc as a defender, he might not have the speed/run he had previously. I can see him turning over the HBF responsibilities to Stocker, SPS, O'Brien and others and heading into the midfield to support Ed and sMurph.

I expect guys like Dow, Fisher and Newnes will be the run and speed on the wings, no matter where they think they are best suited.

I've based this purely on the perceived attributes of certain players and what we lack as a group.

Not sure I'd be playing a bloke coming off two ACL's in the midfield, reckon straight ahead off the back flank nice and easy is the way to go.
One of our problems is smaller defenders who actually defend, we dont really have any apart from Stocker IMO, the others all play the rebound role well but
dont pick up a man and thats why someone like Plowman will get a game as his major attribute is defense.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 16, 2019, 07:53:51 pm
Not sure I'd be playing a bloke coming off two ACL's in the midfield, reckon straight ahead off the back flank nice and easy is the way to go.

One of our problems is smaller defenders who actually defend, we dont really have any apart from Stocker IMO, the others all play the rebound role well but
dont pick up a man and thats why someone like Plowman will get a game as his major attribute is defense.

There are no straight ahead positions in modern football, and if you are at all suspect the opposition will take full advantage of it.

I think SPS defends fine but his pace is always a question mark, I think Newman did fine last season and will only get better with better players around him. O'Brien will be bigger and stronger this season.

I'm keen to see what Teague can deliver.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 16, 2019, 08:16:41 pm
There are no straight ahead positions in modern football, and if you are at all suspect the opposition will take full advantage of it.

I think SPS defends fine but his pace is always a question mark, I think Newman did fine last season and will only get better with better players around him. O'Brien will be bigger and stronger this season.

I'm keen to see what Teague can deliver.

Funny I think SPS is quick enough but he doesnt stay with his man, Newman is a good interceptor rebounder but another IMHO who doesnt defend
that well all the time. Weitering and Plowman are our only traditional lock down types IMO.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on December 16, 2019, 09:54:07 pm
So you prefer Plow - that's fine - but who is he replacing - it is bl00dy tough to find a spot:

B   Caleb MARCHBANK   Liam JONES   Nic NEWMAN
        
HB   Kade SIMPSON   Jacob WEITERING   Sam DOCHERTY

I think he would be head to head with Marchbank and that's a no-brainer for me. Plow would be the first one called on if there was an injury but I can't see him in the best 22 even if he did finish 3rd in the B&F.

I don't think its just me that prefers plow. As mentioned, he came 3rd in the B+F. Coaches love him too.

I already said Marchbank will need to earn his stripes, so take out Marchy and put in Plowman.

Back 6...
Plowman Weitering Docherty
Simpson Jones Newman

With other options....
Newnes, Martin, SPS taking the wings and a bench spot, but all capable of playing half back if required
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonDorotich on December 16, 2019, 10:33:20 pm
I have to say I’m really surprised at how few rate Cunningham- if fit, he’d be one of the first I’d pick. Talent to burn and very dangerous around goal. Couldn’t possibly play Gibbons ahead of him?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2019, 10:49:46 pm
It seems to make sense if you just picked a team on best in a role but where is the speed?

That is one of the slowest possible teams you can build from our list!

Hope he proves me wrong, if he does what of Simmo?

I think it's a big assumption to have Doc as a defender, he might not have the speed/run he had previously. I can see him turning over the HBF responsibilities to Stocker, SPS, O'Brien and others and heading into the midfield to support Ed and sMurph.

I expect guys like Dow, Fisher and Newnes will be the run and speed on the wings, no matter where they think they are best suited.

I've based this purely on the perceived attributes of certain players and what we lack as a group.

OK, I admit that I forgot Fisher, but his 2019 was forgettable.

Who would you swap to gain speed LP?

If you accept that there are different aspects of speed; initial acceleration, closing speed, lateral movement speed, run down speed, run away speed, etc, I would argue that blokes like Jones, Samo, Simpson, Murphy, Martin, Betts, McKay, the Curnows, Gibbons and Newman are among our speediest players.  Newnes probably fits in there too.

As for Doc, there’s no reason why his ACL should hinder his return to All Australian defender status.  The way he is moving at training suggests that he’ll take up where he left off.  He could have the occasional stint in the midfield but he’s not a natural midfielder.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Thryleon on December 16, 2019, 10:50:47 pm
I have to say I’m really surprised at how few rate Cunningham- if fit, he’d be one of the first I’d pick. Talent to burn and very dangerous around goal. Couldn’t possibly play Gibbons ahead of him?

It's not that he isn't rated.  Its literally to do with him being a glass man.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on December 16, 2019, 11:05:15 pm
It's not that he isn't rated.  Its literally to do with him being a glass man.

Harsh Thry ... but hard to argue against.

It would be great if Cuningham could get through a season without injury.  I reckon he has the potential to be a game changer ... if he can stay on the park.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 17, 2019, 07:19:27 am
It's not that he isn't rated.  Its literally to do with him being a glass man.
Glass man? Cunners isnt alone, here's a list of the blokes who are injured more often than not. Its a real concern of mine and why I was glad we Jack from the Hawks. So far though, he hasn't really shown why he has a reputation for keeping blokes on the park. If our fortunes are to turn around, we need to reduce the number of blokes injured for large chunks of the year.

Kennedy
Kruze
Mckay
TDK
Doc
Lang
Marchy
Macreadie
Cunners
Charlie
Willo
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 17, 2019, 07:40:38 am
There are no straight ahead positions in modern football, and if you are at all suspect the opposition will take full advantage of it.

I think SPS defends fine but his pace is always a question mark, I think Newman did fine last season and will only get better with better players around him. O'Brien will be bigger and stronger this season.

I'm keen to see what Teague can deliver.

Footy smarts beat leg 'speed' every day of the week.

Blokes like Betts, Martin, Doc and SPS have that in spades.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: townsendcalling on December 17, 2019, 07:46:07 am
Its a real concern of mine and why I was glad we Jack from the Hawks. So far though, he hasn't really shown why he has a reputation for keeping blokes on the park.

Russell is a medico not a magician! Many of those players had pre existing injuries prior to his arrival. A couple of full preseasons under his guidance will get the players’ bodies right to stand up to the rigors of football and to aid swift recovery.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Thryleon on December 17, 2019, 09:18:15 am
Glass man? Cunners isnt alone, here's a list of the blokes who are injured more often than not. Its a real concern of mine and why I was glad we Jack from the Hawks. So far though, he hasn't really shown why he has a reputation for keeping blokes on the park. If our fortunes are to turn around, we need to reduce the number of blokes injured for large chunks of the year.

Kennedy
Kruze
Mckay
TDK
Doc
Lang
Marchy
Macreadie
Cunners
Charlie
Willo

Doc isnt a glass man.  He has had all of 2 knee reconstructions in 2 years and before that was in the team pretty much every week.

I rate most of these guys.  Its really hard to put them in our best 22 when the caveat states "when fit".  Someone like Kreuzer is 30 years old and has stayed fit for about half a year every year since he first started breaking down.  That means that he is only best 22 when fit, and most of the time isnt in our best 22.

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 17, 2019, 09:54:12 am
Footy smarts beat leg 'speed' every day of the week.

Blokes like Betts, Martin, Doc and SPS have that in spades.

In one on one I agree, but collectively you have to get the ball first and hit clean targets with it.

If we took that slow team into a game against Nthmond or the Filth we'd barely touch the pill for four quarters! They only need to remain disciplined to create an overlap and make use of one weak link. The script would be pretty simple;

 - No center clearance opposition score.

 - Carlton center clearance, miss target, no defensive pressure/run, opposition score.

 - Opposition clear, opposition score.

The balance of power is not a 50/50 split.

The problem becomes critical when you are both slowish and not efficient by hand and foot, it's the difference between Sam Mitchell and Tom Mitchell, and why many think Tom is way over-rated.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on December 17, 2019, 10:00:21 am
Doc isnt a glass man.  He has had all of 2 knee reconstructions in 2 years and before that was in the team pretty much every week.

I rate most of these guys.  Its really hard to put them in our best 22 when the caveat states "when fit".  Someone like Kreuzer is 30 years old and has stayed fit for about half a year every year since he first started breaking down.  That means that he is only best 22 when fit, and most of the time isnt in our best 22.

Kreuzer averages just under 17 games per season, and that’s skewed by his one game in 2014. I’d say he is remarkably durable for his role, workload and injury history.  Remember that he missed only one game in 2016 and 2017.

Doc had a history of hip and knee issues before he joined us; one of the reasons he missed a lot of footy early in his career.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 17, 2019, 11:36:03 am
I don't think its just me that prefers plow. As mentioned, he came 3rd in the B+F. Coaches love him too.

I already said Marchbank will need to earn his stripes, so take out Marchy and put in Plowman.

Back 6...
Plowman Weitering Docherty
Simpson Jones Newman

With other options....
Newnes, Martin, SPS taking the wings and a bench spot, but all capable of playing half back if required

Will be interesting to see how preseason plays out if all can stay fit.

Marchbank running around in the VFL? I can't really see that happening but you never know.

I rate Plowman as a good battler but he lacks speed / elite disposal / height / marking power.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 17, 2019, 11:41:05 am
In one on one I agree, but collectively you have to get the ball first and hit clean targets with it.

If we took that slow team into a game against Nthmond or the Filth we'd barely touch the pill for four quarters! They only need to remain disciplined to create an overlap and make use of one weak link. The script would be pretty simple;

 - No center clearance opposition score.

 - Carlton center clearance, miss target, no defensive pressure/run, opposition score.

 - Opposition clear, opposition score.

The balance of power is not a 50/50 split.

The problem becomes critical when you are both slowish and not efficient by hand and foot, it's the difference between Sam Mitchell and Tom Mitchell, and why many think Tom is way over-rated.

Winning the ball and dishing it of are more about speed of mind than speed of foot.

So, i disagree again.  ;)
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 17, 2019, 12:56:34 pm
Winning the ball and dishing it of are more about speed of mind than speed of foot.

So, i disagree again.  ;)

Pressure acts are far more important than fans appreciate, errors come from applied(forced rushed disposals) and inferred pressure(the fear of causing a turnover).

If a team is physically slow;

 - It lacks ability to apply pressure, ultimately leading to it's opponent having improved efficiency.

 - Additional pressure is present during disposal.

 - Recovering from mistakes is harder relative to the opposition.

AFL clubs have to get the balance right or the game is lost at the selection table, a bias is created.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Thryleon on December 17, 2019, 01:09:56 pm
Kreuzer averages just under 17 games per season, and that’s skewed by his one game in 2014. I’d say he is remarkably durable for his role, workload and injury history.  Remember that he missed only one game in 2016 and 2017.

Doc had a history of hip and knee issues before he joined us; one of the reasons he missed a lot of footy early in his career.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Sam_Docherty.html

The stats say that he just worked his way up to playing full season.

Kreuzer is a different kettle of fish.  His averages might point to him being fit and durable, but ill go he if he didnt take the field in a compromised physical condition and you can generally tell when he has played under duress.

There was a season not long ago, that he failed to finish the game more often than he finished the game.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on December 17, 2019, 01:17:08 pm
Pressure acts are far more important than fans appreciate, errors come from applied(forced rushed disposals) and inferred pressure(the fear of causing a turnover).

If a team is physically slow;

 - It lacks ability to apply pressure, ultimately leading to it's opponent having improved efficiency.

 - Additional pressure is present during disposal.

 - Recovering from mistakes is harder relative to the opposition.

AFL clubs have to get the balance right or the game is lost at the selection table, a bias is created.

I generally agree. Too many folks use Diesel and Sam Mitchell as examples, but they are once in a generation players. The average tortoise doesn't have the ability / skill / footy brain to get away with lack of pace like those blokes.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 17, 2019, 01:21:39 pm
I generally agree. Too many folks use Diesel and Sam Mitchell as examples, but they are once in a generation players. The average tortoise doesn't have the ability / skill / footy brain to get away with lack of pace like those blokes.

Yes there is good.

Then there are blokes like Leigh Matthews, Gary Ablett Snr, Greg Williams and Sam Mitchell, a different ruler is needed to measure their performance!

Can Cripps get there, it doesn't seem impossible?

Fans expecting to rest of our plodders to make up for their lack of pure speed by playing like Lethal seems a tad unreasonable! I think this aspect of making us competitive is Teague's biggest test.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on December 17, 2019, 01:37:07 pm
...................

Fans expecting to rest of our plodders to make up for their lack of pure speed by playing like Lethal seems a tad unreasonable! I think this aspect of making us competitive is Teague's biggest test.

Judging by the talk coming from the club (Judd, Teague, Harford), I'm guessing development is out the window, or on the back burner. I guessing it's wins all the way, and I'm guessing Teague will follow the current trends wrt game style as I outlined in my Scrapbook thread.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on December 17, 2019, 01:43:31 pm
Of possible interest :

https://www.afl.com.au/news/133451/running-amok-your-clubs-speed-machines-and-endurance-beasts
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on December 17, 2019, 01:55:42 pm
And this :

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/308319/that-was-impressive-timetrial-king-reigns-supreme

I'd like to be able to see some sprint / running times for all our players. Can't find anything anywhere.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 17, 2019, 02:55:09 pm
If nothing else we can probably see the overall list benefit and influence that recruiting some players with strong work ethics.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 17, 2019, 02:56:20 pm
Yes there is good.

Then there are blokes like Leigh Matthews, Gary Ablett Snr, Greg Williams and Sam Mitchell, a different ruler is needed to measure their performance!

Can Cripps get there, it doesn't seem impossible?

Fans expecting to rest of our plodders to make up for their lack of pure speed by playing like Lethal seems a tad unreasonable! I think this aspect of making us competitive is Teague's biggest test.

No one - giants aside perhaps - are slow....at senior AFL level.

Chuck, Harry, the Guv - pretty darn quick. Usain Bolt is 195cm (height not the inhibiting factor)

The gap between the Philps and the 'hacks' at the combine is perhaps 0.3 seconds over 20m.

And that's straight, point to point uninhibited speed.

A smart footy brain. one that can anticipate, covers that off easily.

Knowing and/or working out (learning) when to go - and where to go - far more telling.

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 17, 2019, 03:41:34 pm
No use being quick if you cant get the ball, Tom Mitchell isnt overated at all IMO, he won a brownlow and dumb coaches like Bolton let him run around on his own and get 45 possies a game and 3 brownlow votes. No 1 skill in football is to be able to win the ball, you need to be able to win contested footy on a consistent basis, if you dont have enough of those contested players you can have all the pace you like but you wont win games.

eg Essendon are quick and play pretty outside running football and have played that style for years but are carp.....we saw the Bulldogs come from nowhere to win a flag by forcing contests/gang tackling and making the game ugly.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 17, 2019, 04:00:51 pm
No use being quick if you cant get the ball, Tom Mitchell isnt overated at all IMO, he won a brownlow and dumb coaches like Bolton let him run around on his own and get 45 possies a game and 3 brownlow votes. No 1 skill in football is to be able to win the ball, you need to be able to win contested footy on a consistent basis, if you dont have enough of those contested players you can have all the pace you like but you wont win games.

eg Essendon are quick and play pretty outside running football and have played that style for years but are carp.....we saw the Bulldogs come from nowhere to win a flag by forcing contests/gang tackling and making the game ugly.

The point is the successful teams have an appropriate balance that they can make use of accordingly, imbalance being the aspect I raised about the earlier team.

FWIW, I think Tom is great at winning the football but his disposal is not damaging like a Dusty or Shuey, some rounds Tom struggled to hit the side of a barn leaving more than 1/2 his efforts wasted!

But I'm not big on the Brownlow as a measure, look at Dangerfield, we know know an effective disposal is anything that goes 50m even if it goes straight to an opponent which is the majority of his disposals go to nobody or to the opposition! Similar to Tom Mitchell!

We aren't free of players like this, as good as he is in my opinion Cripps biggest issue is poor disposal efficiency.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 17, 2019, 04:10:14 pm
Doc isnt a glass man.  He has had all of 2 knee reconstructions in 2 years and before that was in the team pretty much every week.

I rate most of these guys.  Its really hard to put them in our best 22 when the caveat states "when fit".  Someone like Kreuzer is 30 years old and has stayed fit for about half a year every year since he first started breaking down.  That means that he is only best 22 when fit, and most of the time isnt in our best 22.
Lets agree to disagree, my opinion is that all the ones I listed are extremely injury prone and yet we need them to be fit and playing week in week out.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 17, 2019, 04:34:06 pm
The point is the successful teams have an appropriate balance that they can make use of accordingly, imbalance being the aspect I raised about the earlier team.

FWIW, I think Tom is great at winning the football but his disposal is not damaging like a Dusty or Shuey, some rounds Tom struggled to hit the side of a barn leaving more than 1/2 his efforts wasted!

But I'm not big on the Brownlow as a measure, look at Dangerfield, we know know an effective disposal is anything that goes 50m even if it goes straight to an opponent which is the majority of his disposals go to nobody or to the opposition! Similar to Tom Mitchell!

We aren't free of players like this, as good as he is in my opinion Cripps biggest issue is poor disposal efficiency.

TM goes at 70%DE per game...thats not bad for a supposed ball butcher...Pendlebury who most rate as an ace ball user goes at 75%.....
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 17, 2019, 10:35:45 pm
TM goes at 70%DE per game...thats not bad for a supposed ball butcher...Pendlebury who most rate as an ace ball user goes at 75%.....

Be careful of stats, Dangerfield gets a wrap but the stats take his 60m long bombs to nobody as efficient disposals.

I could read all the stats, but coming out of midfield traffic to hit a moving forward target I'd take Pendles over Tom by a long long long way!

How much of Tom's 70% DE are 2m handballs?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 17, 2019, 11:16:43 pm
Be careful of stats, Dangerfield gets a wrap but the stats take his 60m long bombs to nobody as efficient disposals.

I could read all the stats, but coming out of midfield traffic to hit a moving forward target I'd take Pendles over Tom by a long long long way!

How much of Tom's 70% DE are 2m handballs?

Think TM was No 1 for effective disposals in 2018, as well as clangars so my point is by sheer weight of numbers he is effective so even if he butchers his fair share
the ball is going Hawthorns way more often than not and if TM has the ball then the opposition dont.
He might not be Pendles with the ball but that doesnt mean you can disrespect him like we did and allow him to rack up 45 possies and hand him three brownlow votes...
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 17, 2019, 11:55:58 pm
Be careful of stats, Dangerfield gets a wrap but the stats take his 60m long bombs to nobody as efficient disposals.

I could read all the stats, but coming out of midfield traffic to hit a moving forward target I'd take Pendles over Tom by a long long long way!

How much of Tom's 70% DE are 2m handballs?

Sometimes, bombing the ball forward is all that matters...
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 18, 2019, 12:45:09 pm
Sometimes, bombing the ball forward is all that matters...

We should now better than most, we've almost had 20 years of it!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Pratty on December 18, 2019, 12:59:16 pm
All fit and up and running, I'd go with....

B: Newman, Jones, Marchbank
Hb: Docherty, Weitering, Simpson
C: Walsh, Cripps, Setterfield
Hf: Martin, C.Curnow, Gibbons
F: Betts, McKay, McGovern
Foll: Kreuzer, E.Curnow
Rov: Murphy
I/c: Fisher, Petrevski-Seton, Casboult, Newnes
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 18, 2019, 01:46:45 pm
All fit and up and running, I'd go with....

B: Newman, Jones, Marchbank
Hb: Docherty, Weitering, Simpson
C: Walsh, Cripps, Setterfield
Hf: Martin, C.Curnow, Gibbons
F: Betts, McKay, McGovern
Foll: Kreuzer, E.Curnow
Rov: Murphy
I/c: Fisher, Petrevski-Seton, Casboult, Newnes

I think that 22 is not too bad, I'd probably shuffle a few positions but to me it's a balanced 22.

I think as a pure defender Plowman would be ahead of Marchbank, but if fit, Marchbank playing not as a defender but on a wing or as a running utility type is probably ahead of Plowman. I can see a rotation between Cripps, Marchbank and Setterfield, keeping in mind the rotation doesn't mean they have a midfield rotation, you can probably throw Ed into that rotation.

Just as I can see a clear rotation between Murphy, Gibbons, Walsh, Fisher and SPS/Doc.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on December 18, 2019, 02:14:12 pm
We should now better than most, we've almost had 20 years of it!

I didn't say always!  ::)
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 18, 2019, 02:21:03 pm
B: Newman, Jones, Williamson
Hb: Docherty, Weitering, Simpson
C: Walsh, Cripps, Newnes
Hf: Martin, C.Curnow, Cunningham
F: Betts, McKay, McGovern
Foll: Kreuzer, Setterfield
Rov: Murphy
I/c: Silvagni, Petrevski-Seton, Casboult, Kennedy
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: jeza on December 18, 2019, 02:31:15 pm
Think TM was No 1 for effective disposals in 2018, as well as clangars so my point is by sheer weight of numbers he is effective so even if he butchers his fair share
the ball is going Hawthorns way more often than not and if TM has the ball then the opposition dont.
He might not be Pendles with the ball but that doesnt mean you can disrespect him like we did and rack up 45 possies and hand him three brownlow votes...

Clayton Oliver is the specialist at this. Stats don't take into account how many of his panic-chuck handballs go to a teammate who gets smashed straight away.

His kicking is usually pretty horrendous. Always handballs with the intent of getting it back in quick 1 - 2s. Obviously only interested in his stats at the end of the day. Can come away looking great when the team wins but last year he looked like a busted ar5e.

I honestly wouldn't want him at Carlton. Such a selfish player is not going to work out over the long run.

To think people were comparing him to Cripps FFS!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DamonBlue on December 24, 2019, 11:26:19 am
Here is my best 22, and my second best 22

BDochertyWeiteringPlowman
B2PolsonGoddardMacreadie
HBNewmanJonesSimpson
HB2StockerMarchbankWilliamson
CNewnesCrippsMartin
C2PhilpsKennedyObrien
HFMurphyCharlieCuningham
HF2KempCasboultHoney
FFBettsMcKayMcGovern
FF2LangDe KoningOwies
RKreuzerWalshEd
R2PittonetDowGibbons
INTSPSJackFisherSetterfield
INT2RamsayBenCottrellOdwyerPhillips

Great stuff, Kruddler. My only changes would be Setterfield to a wing in place of Newnes and Gibbons to the bench.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: townsendcalling on December 29, 2019, 09:03:36 am
I think we forget just how good Sam Doherty was in 2017. He played every game and averaged 27.9 disposals, 5.7 rebound 50s, 504m gained, 6.3 intercept possessions and 3.3 tackles per match.
He was bloody good! Add the footy IP he has gained over the past two years, to that onfield talent and we might just have the recruit of the year.  The main question would be will 2 JLT games be enough leD in or does he need time in the NBs??
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: cookie2 on December 29, 2019, 09:32:49 am
@TC
I think we forget just how good Sam Doherty was in 2017.

Boy that seems like an awfully long time ago now!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Thryleon on December 29, 2019, 02:42:07 pm
I think we forget just how good Sam Doherty was in 2017. He played every game and averaged 27.9 disposals, 5.7 rebound 50s, 504m gained, 6.3 intercept possessions and 3.3 tackles per match.
He was bloody good! Add the footy IP he has gained over the past two years, to that onfield talent and we might just have the recruit of the year.  The main question would be will 2 JLT games be enough leD in or does he need time in the NBs??

I don't think anyone's forgotten how good he was.  We are just tempering our expectations as the bloke has played 0 football for 2 seasons and just having him back out there and not getting hurt is a win for both him and the club.  He can save his career best form for finals.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on December 29, 2019, 07:48:06 pm
I don't think anyone's forgotten how good he was.  We are just tempering our expectations as the bloke has played 0 football for 2 seasons and just having him back out there and not getting hurt is a win for both him and the club.  He can save his career best form for finals.
If only the same could be said with people in regards to willo.
Has played about the same, but hadn't even cemented a spot in the side beforehand...unlike doc who was AA and best and fairest.

Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 30, 2019, 07:52:35 am
I
If only the same could be said with people in regards to willo.
Has played about the same, but hadn't even cemented a spot in the side beforehand...unlike doc who was AA and best and fairest.
No one is suggesting he was AA
His form was very good in 2017 for an 18 year old.
He is a good kick, fast and tough.
Carlton don’t have many like that so the enthusiasm in his ability is understandable
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 30, 2019, 09:41:51 am
I No one is suggesting he was AA
His form was very good in 2017 for an 18 year old.
He is a good kick, fast and tough.
Carlton don’t have many like that so the enthusiasm in his ability is understandable

Agree, for a pick 60 odd you dont get much better, its been a real shame too see him struggle with his back as he is
a very decent player who is the complete package IMO and not the usual Von Trapp like kid we tend to recruit
who is skillful but lacks in the physical aspects of the game. Williamson impressed from day 1 and would be an automatic
in my best 22 if fit and firing.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on December 30, 2019, 10:53:11 am
Ang Christou was AA once upon a time.
Had back issues and never recovered.
Could barely get a game (in a better side, sure) and never recaptured his pre-injury form. Lucky to play half the games in any given year since.

He WAS AA, and couldn't recover.
Willo is still a kid, and as good as he might have been, never showed as much as Ang at the same age.....and will likely never reach his own potential.

IMO, Willo is more likely to be delisted than be a regular in a few years time.

I hope i'm wrong, but statistically, back injuries ruin careers more than just about any other injury i think.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 30, 2019, 11:53:39 am
Ang Christou was AA once upon a time.
Had back issues and never recovered.
Could barely get a game (in a better side, sure) and never recaptured his pre-injury form. Lucky to play half the games in any given year since.

He WAS AA, and couldn't recover.
Willo is still a kid, and as good as he might have been, never showed as much as Ang at the same age.....and will likely never reach his own potential.

IMO, Willo is more likely to be delisted than be a regular in a few years time.

I hope i'm wrong, but statistically, back injuries ruin careers more than just about any other injury i think.

I think the discussion was based on if everyone is fit and firing.
Fit and firing Willo is easy best 22

What may or may not happen injury wise is a completely different thing

And Willo has easily shown what Christou did at the same age when fit.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on December 30, 2019, 02:02:21 pm
I think the discussion was based on if everyone is fit and firing.
Fit and firing Willo is easy best 22

What may or may not happen injury wise is a completely different thing

And Willo has easily shown what Christou did at the same age when fit.


I'll agree to disagree that Willo has shown as much.

Point i am making is Willo will never be fit and firing....not to the same extent he was previously IMO.
Even if he was, who does he push out of our back 6?

I'd have him behind...
Jones
Weitering
Simpson
Docherty
Newman
SPS
Plowman

and have to fight for a spot with.....
Marchbank
Stocker
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 30, 2019, 07:28:36 pm
I think the discussion was based on if everyone is fit and firing.
Fit and firing Willo is easy best 22

What may or may not happen injury wise is a completely different thing

And Willo has easily shown what Christou did at the same age when fit.

I agree.

It's not as simple as just naming a bunch of defenders because Williamson showed so much more when he fired up! I'm sure if he could have got his body right there would be no debates surrounding retaining Simmo, and we wouldn't have missed Doc so much, because Wiliamson's best is in that category!

I agree with Kruddler on the Stocker comparison, but let's face it Stocker is yet to fire to the same level that Williamson already showed.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 30, 2019, 10:36:58 pm
I'll agree to disagree that Willo has shown as much.

Point i am making is Willo will never be fit and firing....not to the same extent he was previously IMO.
Even if he was, who does he push out of our back 6?

I'd have him behind...
Jones
Weitering
Simpson
Docherty
Newman
SPS
Plowman

and have to fight for a spot with.....
Marchbank
Stocker


You don’t know what his injuries will do to him.
You don’t know what they will do to Doc.
You don’t know who will or won’t sustain injuries, and as a result the discussion was clearly if everyone was fit and firing
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on December 30, 2019, 10:44:34 pm
You don’t know what his injuries will do to him.
You don’t know what they will do to Doc.
You don’t know who will or won’t sustain injuries, and as a result the discussion was clearly if everyone was fit and firing

So as i said....assuming everyone is fit and firing....which players would you have him ahead from that list?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on December 30, 2019, 11:05:48 pm
I agree.

It's not as simple as just naming a bunch of defenders because Williamson showed so much more when he fired up! I'm sure if he could have got his body right there would be no debates surrounding retaining Simmo, and we wouldn't have missed Doc so much, because Wiliamson's best is in that category!

I agree with Kruddler on the Stocker comparison, but let's face it Stocker is yet to fire to the same level that Williamson already showed.

His stigma is growing more and more by the day. In the same category as Simmo and Doc now? FFS.

I did some fact checking....
Willo played in 15 matches back in 2017.
The best and fairest votes for that year display players who got 5 or more votes in any given game. The amount of players who achieve that can vary from 4 to 15 or more and probably average about 9 or so players a game.
How many times from those 15 games did Willo make it in category of 5+ votes? Once.
He was 1 of 9 players who got votes.

....and what about his 2 games in 2019? Did not get a single vote in his 2 appearances.
In round 9, 19 of 22 players got votes, he was one of 3 players who did not.

So he has made it in the 'bests', once at best.

What parallel universe do i have to be in for him to be compared to Simmo who has played 300+ games, or Doc who is current (co)captain, former B+F winner and AA....or even a former premiership player and AA in Christou.

I wish nothing against the kid, but seriously, he has shown 3/5's of F*** all so far....and nothing to warrant the hype he seems to receive on here.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 30, 2019, 11:50:11 pm
His stigma is growing more and more by the day. In the same category as Simmo and Doc now? FFS.

I did some fact checking....
Willo played in 15 matches back in 2017.
The best and fairest votes for that year display players who got 5 or more votes in any given game. The amount of players who achieve that can vary from 4 to 15 or more and probably average about 9 or so players a game.
How many times from those 15 games did Willo make it in category of 5+ votes? Once.
He was 1 of 9 players who got votes.

....and what about his 2 games in 2019? Did not get a single vote in his 2 appearances.
In round 9, 19 of 22 players got votes, he was one of 3 players who did not.

So he has made it in the 'bests', once at best.

What parallel universe do i have to be in for him to be compared to Simmo who has played 300+ games, or Doc who is current (co)captain, former B+F winner and AA....or even a former premiership player and AA in Christou.

I wish nothing against the kid, but seriously, he has shown 3/5's of F*** all so far....and nothing to warrant the hype he seems to receive on here.

Some players look the part from day 1...Williamson is one of those players...Stocker is another, they just have that intrinsic
quality that they can handle the step up to senior footy better than some other kids and mix it with senior players.
eg Dow and Obrien might have been higher draft pick wise for example but dont give you that same maturity or confidence.
Not sure if he will make it back to regular senior footy given his injuries but he is a serious footballer when fit and gives you that
mix of defense and attack. He is quick for a 190cm player and kicks the ball as well as anyone on the list plus can actually defend a man unlike a lot of our rebound defenders who are purely rebounders only. Sure he has only a small sample of work to go by but I have seen enough to know he has been a big loss IMHO.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 31, 2019, 09:08:40 am
So as i said....assuming everyone is fit and firing....which players would you have him ahead from that list?

Simpson, SPS, Plowman, Newman
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 31, 2019, 10:13:02 am
Simpson, SPS, Plowman, Newman
 Maybe ahead of Simmo and Plowman, SPS is a different type and can play many roles while Newman is a mile ahead of the rest.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 31, 2019, 11:21:22 am
Maybe ahead of Simmo and Plowman, SPS is a different type and can play many roles while Newman is a mile ahead of the rest.
SPS is a midfielder IMO and a waste on the HBF and he doesnt defend anyway and is purely a rebounder IMO, its given him some confidence etc but with Docherty back its time for him to return to the midfield.
Newman can be spasmodic with his defensive efforts, I like him as a player but his strengths are his distribution and intercept work
rather than pure one on one defending IMO and thats why I rate Williamson as he doesnt mind sticking to his man body on body
and being in their face. If fit I would also consider Williamson for a position on the wing given his attributes.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: JonHenry on December 31, 2019, 01:36:59 pm
SPS is a midfielder IMO and a waste on the HBF and he doesnt defend anyway and is purely a rebounder IMO, its given him some confidence etc but with Docherty back its time for him to return to the midfield.
Newman can be spasmodic with his defensive efforts, I like him as a player but his strengths are his distribution and intercept work
rather than pure one on one defending IMO and thats why I rate Williamson as he doesnt mind sticking to his man body on body
and being in their face. If fit I would also consider Williamson for a position on the wing given his attributes.

Exactly as I see it.
SPS must be more of a mid.
Has all the attributes and we need mids.
Williamson, when fit will outperform the others as he is tough, and can defend properly.
His kicking is a weapon
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on December 31, 2019, 04:43:29 pm
SPS is a midfielder IMO and a waste on the HBF and he doesnt defend anyway and is purely a rebounder IMO, its given him some confidence etc but with Docherty back its time for him to return to the midfield.
I feel SPS has a problem that affects both his roles, the HBF as well as in the Midfield, he's too laconic.

When there is a turnover he is slow to react to the change in the direction of play, so when the game is heavily contested and continually flipping direction he becomes increasingly disconnected to the play. He's fine when it's all in front of him and he can just hunt the footy, but the minute the pill starts to bounce about it's like watching a pong puck on Valium!

I can see that in the long term the same people that hated watching Gibbs will grow to hate SPS.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: tonyo on December 31, 2019, 05:07:26 pm
On 3AW this morning, John Anderson predicted Cripps for the Brownlow and for Rising Star - Liam Stocker.  He said that a club insider who happened to have won a couple of Brownlows himself (read Diesel....) has high expectations.  We can only hope.....
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 01, 2020, 02:39:26 am
On 3AW this morning, John Anderson predicted Cripps for the Brownlow and for Rising Star - Liam Stocker.  He said that a club insider who happened to have won a couple of Brownlows himself (read Diesel....) has high expectations.  We can only hope.....
I reckon Crippa hasnt peaked yet and Diesel knows this. If he cant stay fit and healthy, he will be the best the player in the comp (yes even better than Dusty). As for Stocko, I see something really special with him, apart from the fact he has a heap of c%&$ in him, he has his head screwed on and I reckon he will be a future leader of our club. Exciting times ahead.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on January 01, 2020, 08:22:34 pm
All we need is for all 22, whoever they may be, to deliver four quarters of football!
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: hotspur on January 04, 2020, 11:22:42 am
Having  no injuries would be a bonus .
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: shawny on January 07, 2020, 08:22:46 pm
Exactly as I see it.
SPS must be more of a mid.
Has all the attributes and we need mids.
Williamson, when fit will outperform the others as he is tough, and can defend properly.
His kicking is a weapon

Pretty confident the time SPS spent in defence was only to build his game and give him time to learn and develop without the bash and crash of playing in an undermanned midfield.

Been in the system 4 years now so apprenticeship is over, like McGrath at the cheats see him spending a lot more time next to Cripps provided Doc holds up.  
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: townsendcalling on February 23, 2020, 10:58:04 pm
Depending on how he pulls up over the next week or so, Tom Williamson has penciled himself in for a Round 1 start, but I'm not sure where I can fit Simmo in. Jones, Weitering, Newman, Docherty, SPS, Williamson, Marchbank, Plowman, Simpson (plus they have been grooming Poulson as a small lock down defender). Do you run Simmo off the bench or is that a waste of a space?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: capcom on February 24, 2020, 08:29:44 am
Depending on how he pulls up over the next week or so, Tom Williamson has penciled himself in for a Round 1 start, but I'm not sure where I can fit Simmo in. Jones, Weitering, Newman, Docherty, SPS, Williamson, Marchbank, Plowman, Simpson (plus they have been grooming Poulson as a small lock down defender). Do you run Simmo off the bench or is that a waste of a space?

Comes back to who we might be playing.  His experience and read of play is worth its weight in platinum but this should be his last year.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: LP on February 24, 2020, 08:36:10 am
These questions go to the heart of the Betts/Simmo debate.

If they finds themselves on the fringe, are they still worth the price?
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 24, 2020, 09:50:40 am
Richmond are a bit different to line up against, I'd expect players like Short and Houli to be manned up with defensive forwards.
Simpson is a lock to play IMO especially given their plethora of small forwards....
Marchbank might start in the NB's IMO.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Jack Burton on February 24, 2020, 05:46:09 pm
Depending on how he pulls up over the next week or so, Tom Williamson has penciled himself in for a Round 1 start, but I'm not sure where I can fit Simmo in. Jones, Weitering, Newman, Docherty, SPS, Williamson, Marchbank, Plowman, Simpson (plus they have been grooming Poulson as a small lock down defender). Do you run Simmo off the bench or is that a waste of a space?
This is an interesting conundrum. We picked 7 defenders in every game last year, and I assume we'll continue to do the same. 9 doesn't go into 7. With Marchbank not having trained since Christmas I have grave doubts about him being selected in Round 1. If he does, they've spoken about him playing on the wing, so I don't think he'll be selected as a defender for round 1. Jones and Weitering definitely in, assuming Weitering gets over his hip problem, but the club made noises that it wasn't serious. Plowman is our best lockdown defender, and is a certainty to play. Docherty will play if he gets through the Marsh games intact. Simpson will play in my opinion, we need his leadership. I agree that Williamson will play IF he gets through the two March games intact, he is what we need against that small fast forward line. That leaves one spot between Newman and SPS, and i would go for SPS. Neither are very good one on one defenders, but I think SPS has more creativity running off half back and uses the ball better (mind you Newman uses it pretty well too). Tough decision, will be interesting to see which way they go
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Blue Moon on February 25, 2020, 04:20:58 pm
Jones and Weitering will play, Docherty, Plowman and Simpson will play, SPS, Newman and Newnes will play, and Marchbank will play. Williamson, as good as he played last Thursday, is number 10 in the batting order. SPS Newman and Newnes will have runs through the midfield as well as playing in defence.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 25, 2020, 04:25:19 pm
Jones and Weitering will play, Docherty, Plowman and Simpson will play, SPS, Newman and Newnes will play, and Marchbank will play. Williamson, as good as he played last Thursday, is number 10 in the batting order. SPS Newman and Newnes will have runs through the midfield as well as playing in defence.
Just my opinion but out of SPS and Willo, I'll pick Willo every day of the week. SPS chooses when to turn up, Willo when fit and healthy goes hard all day. Again, just my opinion. I am not sold on SPS yet.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: Tragic on February 25, 2020, 04:37:23 pm
yeah, Willo is a natural back flanker.  SPS can slot in as a small anywhere on the ground.  Newnes is a winger.

just my back 6 if all available and in form :

Plow, Weiters, Newman
Willo, Jones, Doc

Then one of Simmo or Marchy on the bench, depending on how tall the opposition fwd line is.

Guaranteed there will be injury or form concerns at stages, which leaves SPS, Newnes, Goddard, Stocker as backups with a bit of shuffling.  I reckon Brodie Kemp might find his way back there in the coming years too.



 
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: WASurfer on February 26, 2020, 04:22:42 pm
Tragic....I'd be happy with that back 6 with Simpson as the 7th defender. Tigers have a smallish forward line so Marchbank probably misses out on that fact alone. And despite suggestions he might play more of a wing role, Marchbank will have quite a few in front of him for those positions. Really hope Willo can stay fit. Slotting him into defence along with Docherty is such a boost....one replaces Thomas and the other frees up SPS to play more in the midfield or on a wing. And we've still got Stocker to hopefully try and fit in there this year as well. Yes, there'll be injuries so we won't have everyone available but it's a lot brighter already.....we finished strongly last year and have effectively added Williamson, Docherty, Betts and Martin. Charlie is a loss for sure and probably just reinforces how important Casboult is to our team. He can play a number of roles but will be pencilled in to play forward and backup ruckman.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: PaulP on February 26, 2020, 04:34:45 pm
Based on his 2019 season, and what I guess he's being paid ($300-$400k), I think Levi is our "best bargain" player.

Two careers saved from the trash heap. Onya Bolts.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: flyboy77 on February 26, 2020, 09:26:44 pm
Tragic....I'd be happy with that back 6 with Simpson as the 7th defender. Tigers have a smallish forward line so Marchbank probably misses out on that fact alone. And despite suggestions he might play more of a wing role, Marchbank will have quite a few in front of him for those positions. Really hope Willo can stay fit. Slotting him into defence along with Docherty is such a boost....one replaces Thomas and the other frees up SPS to play more in the midfield or on a wing. And we've still got Stocker to hopefully try and fit in there this year as well. Yes, there'll be injuries so we won't have everyone available but it's a lot brighter already.....we finished strongly last year and have effectively added Williamson, Docherty, Betts and Martin. Charlie is a loss for sure and probably just reinforces how important Casboult is to our team. He can play a number of roles but will be pencilled in to play forward and backup ruckman.

No way will Marchbank be ready to play 1s round 1....
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on February 28, 2020, 12:05:22 pm
No way will Marchbank be ready to play 1s round 1....

Marchbank is playing in the NBs practice match this evening and, barring any setbacks, should be in the mix for round 1.  I think that he will struggle to earn a spot though.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: kruddler on February 29, 2020, 01:01:45 pm
Marchbank is playing in the NBs practice match this evening and, barring any setbacks, should be in the mix for round 1.  I think that he will struggle to earn a spot though.

He might be 'fit' but he won't be match fit. He'll be out of form and probably confidence in his body.

Let him have a few weeks in the NB before we worry about giving him a gig in the 1's.

Going to have Jones, Weitering, Docherty, Simpson, Plowman ahead of him and fighting for a spot in the back 6 with Newman, Willo, SPS, Martin and Newnes also fighting for a spot off HBF/Wing as well.
Title: Re: Best 22 so far
Post by: DJC on February 29, 2020, 03:40:03 pm
Young Caleb seems to have done OK:

Quote
Caleb Marchbank started to make an impact down back in the second in his first game in nine months. His intercept marking and decision-making proving to be a valuable asset in defence.

The scoreboard suggests that he would have had plenty of opportunities.  It also suggests that the NBs are going to be in for another long season.