Carlton Supporters Club

For a club to make the progression to the top of the tree, they must have a clear understanding of where their playing list stands, both in regards to their ideal model of a premiership team, but also in comparison to the competition. If they fail to do either of these things, I am not sure how they can make the correct list management decisions.

So with that in mind, I started to wonder about KPIs and expectations for 2017. My assessment of our list last year was of one that was unlikely to achieve much at all this year and that the results would likely not be enough to show it was building towards that flag.  I felt we were far enough away that the quickest way was to have pain this year (and quite possibly next) and trade out the currency we did have to to build a completely different looking list.

I accept the club quite obviously felt differently, but to me, that means that the club does get to be beaten around this year and there are absolutely no excuses for the club to not be taking definable steps forward from 2016. Rebuilding your list from the ground and getting beaten up is acceptable. Trying to be a competitive AFL team and getting beaten up is not.

So whilst my predictions are for a grim season of between about 2-5 wins, I think my expectation  is rightly much higher based on the club's list management team and coaching staff.

Carlton finished with 7 wins and in 14th position last year. It was considered to have a lot of young players who should be better this year and it chose to hold onto most players in last years trade period. It must be therefore reasonable to suggest that the benchmark for a "PASS" this year must  be

9th-12th with about 9-11 wins.
The club MUST make that progression to give it the platform to make the step back into finals the following season.

So forget your predictions (well not really), but I am more interested in your expectations.

What does Carlton need to do to meet your expectations and satisfy you that those in charge are taking the club in the right direction?

I'd like to see consolidation and evolution :
- I want to see the back 6 repelling attacks on a consistent basis. I want to see them well drilled, well organized, never confused.
- I want to see a lot more focus on attack and scoring. I want to see better entry into the F50. I want us to own the corridor more.
- I want us to see have a more organized front 6. I want the balance on talls and smalls in the F50 done right. I want to see players played to their strengths, e.g Cas in the goal square, as I've said before. Get some crumbers in there who are good goal sneaks e.g LeBois
- I want to see more support for Cripps.
- I want to see more evidence of Bolton's match day tactical nous.
- I want to see a lot more more run and carry, a lot more breaking with speed and structure from a stoppage. 

There's plenty of others, but that will do for now.

For the sake of unity and club cohesion we need to create an environment where there is no room for folks to start doubting we are on the right track.
That means we have to show real signs of progress.
Some see that in terms of improved on-field efforts....green shoots.
I believe that's a little too intangible and that it has to be progress in terms of games won and ladder positions.
Its why I believe last place would be a disaster...it's because of the detrimental effect it would have on our confidence and unity.
Once the cracks appear in a clubs path we all know how quickly they widen and once that starts it's hard to reverse that process....only success stops that!

So I'm with MIO
Not expecting finals but..... 9th to 12th
9-10 wins.

If all the things Paul mentions come into play that's not unrealistic.

Lods - I wasn't thinking so  much in W/L, mainly because I can't see us putting together 4 quarters of the sort of things I'm hoping for. If we can play one or two full quarters here and there with those things I refer to, that's probably about as much as we can expect IMO.

I'd be pretty chuffed with 9 or 10 wins, but I reckon that's a big ask.

Lods - I wasn't thinking so  much in W/L, mainly because I can't see us putting together 4 quarters of the sort of things I'm hoping for. If we can play one or two full quarters here and there with those things I refer to, that's probably about as much as we can expect IMO.

I'd be pretty chuffed with 9 or 10 wins, but I reckon that's a big ask.

The results would come on the back of the things you mentioned though Paul.
9-10 is a fair ask but only a couple more than what we achieved last year.

Sustain the effort for a couple of extra games and we're there.

I'm expecting a middle six finish, probably 9th to 12th, with 9 to 11 wins.

The results would come on the back of the things you mentioned though Paul.
9-10 is a fair ask but only a couple more than what we achieved last year.

Sustain the effort for a couple of extra games and we're there.

Well, since you put it like that..............

No, I'd prefer to temper my expectations and then be pleasantly surprised, rather than vice versa.

I'll be happy if we can beat Freo and the Lions (at home) and pull off a stunning upset against the scum, giving us three wins for year.  Anything else is a bonus.

I expect unbiased and fully fair umpiring ALL year during ALL of our games for the FULL 120mins.  >:(

What I expect and what is delivered are always two completely things ::)

My prediction is 2-5 wins........expectations to beat Essendon well at least once and to be the team that finishes the coaching career of Nathan Buckley and Damian Hardwick by beating Collingwood and Richmond respectively in the return matches...
And I expect to be competitive with effort in most games and only have a couple of blowout games where we get belted...

I accept the club quite obviously felt differently, but to me, that means that the club does get to be beaten around this year and there are absolutely no excuses for the club to not be taking definable steps forward from 2016. Rebuilding your list from the ground and getting beaten up is acceptable. Trying to be a competitive AFL team and getting beaten up is not.

You may remember that i was in favour of your 'radical plan'.

However, because the club failed to follow said plan, doesn't automatically mean that you can assume it was their own doing. It takes 2 to tango.
You may also remember that despite being in favour of your 'radical plan', i suggested that it was unlikely to happen.....at least to that extent. Reason being - It takes 2 to tango.

Simply, nobody was really buying what we were selling. We did well to cash in with what we had.

So for that reason, i don't think the club deserves to be blasted if we don't rise up the ladder as your suggested expectations predict.

The past 20 years as a Blues supporter have taught me not to harbour expectations. Just hopes.  ;)

I'm not expecting a great deal of improvement this season.
While ladder position is not so important at this stage, I would like to see us win at least as many games as in 2016, and see us kick higher scores and improve our midfield and F50 entries.

We are only into our second year of a major rebuild, including a complete changeover of coaching staff.
Ladder position will become more important from 2018 onwards.

I expect to see the 2017 trade and draft periods improve our KPF and ruck stocks considerably.

I also want to see the younger brigade earning the right to play AFL by performing on the training track and in the VFL.

You may remember that i was in favour of your 'radical plan'.

However, because the club failed to follow said plan, doesn't automatically mean that you can assume it was their own doing. It takes 2 to tango.
You may also remember that despite being in favour of your 'radical plan', i suggested that it was unlikely to happen.....at least to that extent. Reason being - It takes 2 to tango.

Simply, nobody was really buying what we were selling. We did well to cash in with what we had.

So for that reason, i don't think the club deserves to be blasted if we don't rise up the ladder as your suggested expectations predict.

How have you drawn that conclusion? Apart from Gibbs, did we have any negotiations around Murphy, Kreuzer, Thomas, Casboult etc?

Without us knowing either way, I consider it irrelevant. If the list managers have done such a terrible job that we have no one that other clubs are after, then that is worse.

No I think the fact the club is choosing to keep it's established players means they believe they are an important part of this process and that is okay I can wear that. But the biggest reasons for not going all out that I heard were that we could not afford to do that, we couldn't go that far backwards, the club would get smashed, the memberships would drop, the sponsors would leave etc etc...

Okay... well now I expect the club to ensure that we are in fact progressing, if last year was year N in the rebuild, then we are N+1 now and that has to bring progression or they are at fault. If they do, great I am on board, if we don't then they need to answer some serious questions on how they are going to bring this club to the top.

As supporters we absolutely should EXPECT success.

MIO, I just want to clarify - the equation as you see it, is thus :

- if the club traded out "everyone", and the list was 90%? new or newish recruits, then you could tolerate a non linear progression up / down the ladder, and after a few years of up/down, then leading to success ?

- because the club hung onto its stars, and only went for a "partial" rebuild, then progression up the ladder must be linear only, moving slowly upwards but never downwards ?

As supporters we absolutely should EXPECT success.

Yes , but not necessarily in the first 3 years of a major list rebuild.

Yes, but we go back to the same old question - define success ?

finals every year, 1 flag every 5 years, prelim every 3 years, linear improvement in ladder position every year etc.

And sandsmere, I like your sig.

Yes , but not necessarily in the first 3 years of a major list rebuild.

I expect N+1 is greater than N

I guess my expectations are based on how I interpret our side in comparison to last year, plus how other sides around us will perform. Reality is what you're left with when expectations are met, exceeded or not met.

I see our backline as being better again. The addition of Marchbank plus the natural development/improvement in Plowman and Docherty should bode well. We know what to expect from Rowe and Simpson and they'll probably deliver about the same. I really don't believe Tuohy is a huge loss and in time Macreadie will slot in down back very nicely, until then White will be the man. We look forward to Byrne returning... with relish as he also gives us dash out of defence. And when they're up against it, Weitering, I believe, will help out.

I think our midfield will also improve. Murphy back is a big plus. Gibbs is responding very well to the kerfuffle of late last year. Cripps will improve again. Ed Curnow just has to keep doing what he does. Palmer and Smedts are good additions and I believe C Curnow will do plenty of midfield time as his pace is needed in a somewhat average paced midfield. With Kreuzer in good form, this bodes well. Kerridge is on thin ice and had better improve his disposal % efficiency or it's goodnight, nurse. In time you'd reasonably think that Polson and Fisher will get to show their wares in the midfield, along with Pickett and SPS. I've given up on Boekhorst (Lucas MK2) and Cuningham (Lucas MK3) but would love to be proven wrong.

Our forward line, which is sh1te/worst in the league/ will have to rely on small and medium sized players (midfield/C Curnow/SOS2/Wright/Pickett) to kick us a meaningful score as Harry is still developing, Casboult is disappointing and unless something amazing happens, Jaksch/Jones (and Thomas and Casboult) are enjoying their last year at PP. Personally, I believe Weitering must play forward.

So, I expect us to do better than last year even if that, paradoxically, doesn't translate into more wins but rather, a much stronger %, no blow-outs and us actually dishing out a hiding or two.

@Baggers

Good post Baggers - I think they are reasonable hopes/expectations, based on the fact that  you've seen the guys in the preseason. I'm looking forward to R1 next week to check 'em out.

MIO, I just want to clarify - the equation as you see it, is thus :

- if the club traded out "everyone", and the list was 90%? new or newish recruits, then you could tolerate a non linear progression up / down the ladder, and after a few years of up/down, then leading to success ?

- because the club hung onto its stars, and only went for a "partial" rebuild, then progression up the ladder must be linear only, moving slowly upwards but never downwards ?

Paul
If we had tried the blank canvas, I would have expected the losses and seen that as still a progression, and what is more I would have expected to see continued progression in results.

My view is that the club has assessed (wrongly) that the we were best placed holding these players and as such, considering we are on a rebuild that means we expect to progress from last year..

If the club goes backwards this year at all, I am not sure what we gained by holding onto older players who I don't think are good enough when we could already be using that money to ensure the future.

I don't really want to try and argue for a rebuild again though. I just wanted to more raise the point that we should have expectations, that the clubs actions should be a message to us where they see us and that we should therefore be able to say.. Okay well then I expect this level in return.

If the club had gone a different path my expectations would have been different, including if somehow they had managed to draft in a raft of stars.

I don't think it is unreasonable to hold the club accountable for their decisions/strategies

As I have said before one of our problems is the rate of improvement, other teams are not standing still waiting for us to catch up, we have to improve at a greater rate than last year and hope a few of the teams in front and those who were below dont improve at the same rate, stagnate go backwards..
Even a 5-10% rate of improvement may not be enough to see us progress much higher than last season or even go backwards....

The one thing we cant afford, and my greatest concern, is that we have to reset the rebuild.

The one thing we cant afford, and my greatest concern, is that we have to reset the rebuild.

I agree completely

@EB I agree, however it should be expected that if we are at 60% of the strength of the top team, we should be able to make more improvements than most teams at 85%.

For a team 5th it is understandable to improve, but go backwards, team in our situation should be moving forward without excuses

How have you drawn that conclusion? Apart from Gibbs, did we have any negotiations around Murphy, Kreuzer, Thomas, Casboult etc?

Without us knowing either way, I consider it irrelevant. If the list managers have done such a terrible job that we have no one that other clubs are after, then that is worse.

You've answered your own question there.

List managers/recruiters/developers have all been changed in the past few years basically for that reason. Our 'talent' isn't living up to expectation for one reason or another.

So while you consider it irrelevant, i can not agree.

Casboult was signed up very late in the footballing year and only given a 1 year contract. Highly likely that he was up for trade, but nobody wanted him. Rather than try and find someone to take his spot from a rookie list. We keep him on for another year on minimum chips.

Kreuzer has had a world of injuries and has been rumoured to have failed multiple medicals in the years past. Clubs might not want to take the risk like we did with Thomas.

Murphy, for the same reasons. Injury concerns. Clubs would be wary of a club trying to trade out its captain who hasn't played for the last half of the year. If i'm a buyer, that sends off alarm bells.

Thomas....you expect someone to buy him?

Kruddler I agree Casboult would have unlikely had any suitors, but think we should have been looking or offloading.

I do think that Murphy & Kreuzer would have had clubs after them, they do after all improve many clubs, that is obvious.

With Thomas, I think yes, someone might have been interested if we paid 50% or 60% of his salary, I still see that as a complete win.

I do believe we had some ability to trade deeper, of the club had shopped players around it would have got out and their respective managers would have hit the airs trying to get deals for their players also.. I have no evidence they didn't shop players around, but the lack of evidence to show they did speaks volumes

Paul
If we had tried the blank canvas, I would have expected the losses and seen that as still a progression, and what is more I would have expected to see continued progression in results.

My view is that the club has assessed (wrongly) that the we were best placed holding these players and as such, considering we are on a rebuild that means we expect to progress from last year..

If the club goes backwards this year at all, I am not sure what we gained by holding onto older players who I don't think are good enough when we could already be using that money to ensure the future.

I don't really want to try and argue for a rebuild again though. I just wanted to more raise the point that we should have expectations, that the clubs actions should be a message to us where they see us and that we should therefore be able to say.. Okay well then I expect this level in return.

If the club had gone a different path my expectations would have been different, including if somehow they had managed to draft in a raft of stars.

I don't think it is unreasonable to hold the club accountable for their decisions/strategies

Fair enough. Thanks matey.

The one thing we cant afford, and my greatest concern, is that we have to reset the rebuild.

If we have to reset the rebuild, then maybe we can offer a complimentary rewire and re-plumb to appease the masses - if that fails, we can market ourselves as a "renovator's delight", or my personal favourite when I'm feeling low about the club, "renovate or detonate."

Bloody AFL jargon.

MIO, I'm surprised to hear you say that about Thomas. I'd be shocked if he found another home, irrespective of how much of his salary is subsidised.

I could see him in some type of coaching role.

MIO, I'm surprised to hear you say that about Thomas. I'd be shocked if he found another home, irrespective of how much of his salary is subsidised.

I could see him in some type of coaching role.

Thomas would be quite valuable to some clubs. His presence on field surrounded by children is underestimated by many Carlton supporters. He knows where to be on the field and when, often gets there despite supporters claiming he's too slow to keep up, and also pretty much does a sole hand directing the beginners where to be and when.

People post in these threads like the "improvement curve" is a never ending climb to higher and higher performance, it's just unrealistic.

The concept of being left behind is bullsh1t!

The only thing that stops any club climbing the ladder is the failure to develop the resources they have.

Recently we've manage to scupper our fortunes twice. The first time when we reacted prematurely to kibosh Ratten, then again when as his replacement we appointed a redundant geriatric who raped the club and it's culture.

Thomas would be quite valuable to some clubs. His presence on field surrounded by children is underestimated by many Carlton supporters. He knows where to be on the field and when, often gets there despite supporters claiming he's too slow to keep up, and also pretty much does a sole hand directing the beginners where to be and when.

Well, we managed to stooge Brisbane with Fev, and they have a young list, sooooooo.................

People post in these threads like the "improvement curve" is a never ending climb to higher and higher performance, it's just unrealistic.

The concept of being left behind is bullsh1t!

The only thing that stops any club climbing the ladder is the failure to develop the resources they have.

Recently we've manage to scupper our fortunes twice. The first time when we reacted prematurely to kibosh Ratten, then again when as his replacement we appointed a redundant geriatric who raped the club and it's culture.

Oh no!  Another thread spiralling out of control ;)

Improvement requires good list management, the ability to get the best out of the list in terms of development, pastoral care, fitness and conditioning, direction and leadership, and a brand of footy that is competitive and suits the attributes of the playing group.

I reckon we're on track.

Oh no!  Another thread spiralling out of control ;)

 :))

We are now re-entering the Twilight Zone!

My expectations are:
- game plan/s that make blowouts less likely
- management of youngsters for the longer, not shorter term
- consistent reliable performance from older and stopgap players
- several players step up to give Cripps a hand
- brief but brilliant flashes from our star draftees (1-3yrs) + Byrne in 2nd half
- game time for youngsters, well supported by seniors
- development of "us" mindset across the squad
- consistent performance in NB with move up the ladder
- some consistent AFL standard performance from KJ
- back 6 become more cohesive, static or less points against
- Indigenous players feel valued and their culture respected (strong spirit = max development)
- more consistent effort for longer periods
- nobody getting gifted games
- club and supporters unite and stand behind our coaches/players

I've a few more, but that'll do for now :D

Go young Blues

I like that list LN.

My expectations are:
- game plan/s that make blowouts less likely
- management of youngsters for the longer, not shorter term
- consistent reliable performance from older and stopgap players
- several players step up to give Cripps a hand
- brief but brilliant flashes from our star draftees (1-3yrs) + Byrne in 2nd half
- game time for youngsters, well supported by seniors
- development of "us" mindset across the squad
- consistent performance in NB with move up the ladder
- some consistent AFL standard performance from KJ
- back 6 become more cohesive, static or less points against
- Indigenous players feel valued and their culture respected (strong spirit = max development)
- more consistent effort for longer periods
- nobody getting gifted games
- club and supporters unite and stand behind our coaches/players

I've a few more, but that'll do for now :D

Go young Blues

I like your work LN  :)

Thomas would be quite valuable to some clubs. His presence on field surrounded by children is underestimated by many Carlton supporters. He knows where to be on the field and when, often gets there despite supporters claiming he's too slow to keep up, and also pretty much does a sole hand directing the beginners where to be and when.

Exactly why i stand up for him.

His ability to individually impact games is not what it used to be, however from the very first game he played in a carlton jumper, his direction out on the field was better than any other bloke out there. For a 1st gamer in a new club, it really showed us how far behind we were as a playing list.

Exactly why i stand up for him.

His ability to individually impact games is not what it used to be, however from the very first game he played in a carlton jumper, his direction out on the field was better than any other bloke out there. For a 1st gamer in a new club, it really showed us how far behind we were as a playing list.

I saw Thomas pointing a few times, generally after mis-kicking, but no evidence that he was providing any direction whatsoever.  Self-preservation has been his primary motive, and that's understandable given expectations and his loss of pace and agility.

It's a nice try Kruddler, but more a product of a vivid imagination than anything approaching reality.

I saw Thomas pointing a few times, generally after mis-kicking, but no evidence that he was providing any direction whatsoever.  Self-preservation has been his primary motive, and that's understandable given expectations and his loss of pace and agility.

Maybe you are seeing what you want to see, like the stuff people saw watching McLean.

I expect this season the naysayers will keep bemoaning the selection of the likes of Thomas and White until the point their career ends. At which time I expect to hear the "I told you so" repeatedly after the fact.

Carlton needs to get as much as possible out of the older guys in 2017, while the young guys develop, let the oldies do some heavy lifting until the kids are ready and durable enough to step up.

Maybe you are seeing what you want to see, like the stuff people saw watching McLean.

I expect this season the naysayers will keep bemoaning the selection of the likes of Thomas and White until the point their career ends. At which time I expect to hear the "I told you so" repeatedly after the fact.

Carlton needs to get as much out of the older guys in 2017, while the young guys develop, let the oldies do some heavy lifting until the kids are ready and durable enough to step up.

I saw a hell of a lot more from McLean than I have seen from Thomas.

I was hoping that Thomas would be a contributor this season but his form in the JLT games was poor - apart from the odd cameo.  We really can't afford to carry Thomas if what he dished up in the JLT games is any guide to what he'll provide this season.  I'd rather get games into the kids or blokes like White, Graham, Sheehan and Buckley.

Maybe you are seeing what you want to see, like the stuff people saw watching McLean.

I expect this season the naysayers will keep bemoaning the selection of the likes of Thomas and White until the point their career ends. At which time I expect to hear the "I told you so" repeatedly after the fact.

Carlton needs to get as much out of the older guys in 2017, while the young guys develop, let the oldies do some heavy lifting until the kids are ready and durable enough to step up.

Well said.
I'm no fan of the Thomas deal, but enjoyed his performance earlier on. IF he can add to the leadership and mentor the youngsters, on/off field, that's just as important at this stage of our club's development.

I saw Thomas pointing a few times, generally after mis-kicking, but no evidence that he was providing any direction whatsoever.  Self-preservation has been his primary motive, and that's understandable given expectations and his loss of pace and agility.

It's a nice try Kruddler, but more a product of a vivid imagination than anything approaching reality.

My comments from his first time wearing navy blue are amongst these pages, times stamped for all to see.

He's been doing it from day dot. Just because the high horse sitting DJC can't/won't see something doesn't mean it fictitious.
I'm not the only one who has noted that, so perhaps you should investigate your own imagination and reality.

I expect supporter perceptions and other preconceived ideas won't change in 2017, despite my expectation that Carlton delivers change in 2017.

I expect I'll regular fly off the handle in the immediate aftermath of an embarrassing defeat, and I expect Carlton will deliver that opportunity. But I expect them to do so less regularly than in immediate past seasons.

I expect the reactions, comments and posts of supporters will reflect both Carlton's on-filed performance and the events happening in the supporters private lives.

I expect no matter how much improvement and positives Carlton delivers, some supporters will only see the negatives.

I expect no matter how well a player like Thomas, Jones, Jaksch, Casboult, Kerridge, Gorringe or White perform, some supporters will refuse to judge them fairly.

If Thomas is such a wonderful mentor and on field leader, why hasn't he been included in the leadership group?

Clearly, the playing group and coaching panel must have missed Thomas providing the on field direction and leadership that is so evident to some observers  :)

If Thomas is such a wonderful mentor and on field leader, why hasn't he been included in the leadership group?

Clearly, the playing group and coaching panel must have missed Thomas providing the on field direction and leadership that is so evident to some observers  :)

So by the same logic Armfield only learned to be a leader in the off-season then?

Cmon man, you're clutching at straws. Just let it go.

The only true measure of the Thomas trade (as with any trade) is whether we would do it again, knowing what we know now.

His on field leadership may be crap, or it may be better than anyone in the comp - no one knows for sure. Perhaps it's laudable to try and salvage something from what has been a bad trade.

And I would also add that judging by our performances since 2014, his on field directions are either not very good, or else they're going unheeded. 

The only true measure of the Thomas trade (as with any trade) is whether we would do it again, knowing what we know now.

His on field leadership may be crap, or it may be better than anyone in the comp - no one knows for sure. Perhaps it's laudable to try and salvage something from what has been a bad trade.

And I would also add that judging by our performances since 2014, his on field directions are either not very good, or else they're going unheeded.

Let's just say that we (CFC) are trying to make the best of what was a very bad deal for us. Hopefully we will be back in control of the situation after this season.

If Thomas is such a wonderful mentor and on field leader, why hasn't he been included in the leadership group?

Clearly, the playing group and coaching panel must have missed Thomas providing the on field direction and leadership that is so evident to some observers  :)

Firstly you have to nominate yourself or accept a nomination for the leadership group, you are not just appointed.

If I recall correctly Thomas was asked this very question during the 2015 pre-season, about joining the leadership group, after he was allegedly nominated by the coaching staff, but he declined the offer saying he preferred to concentrate on recovering form and regaining some respect. Unfortunately we now know injury wrecked that season.

As for Carlton's leadership group, that's a very interesting topic to raise, with past greats like Lachie Henderson being a member of it in his traitorous final season!

Let's just say that we (CFC) are trying to make the best of what was a very bad deal for us. Hopefully we will be back in control of the situation after this season.

Nowhere near as bad as the Betts deal, yet posters keep banging on about Thomas.

Maybe you are seeing what you want to see, like the stuff people saw watching McLean.

I expect this season the naysayers will keep bemoaning the selection of the likes of Thomas and White until the point their career ends. At which time I expect to hear the "I told you so" repeatedly after the fact.

Carlton needs to get as much as possible out of the older guys in 2017, while the young guys develop, let the oldies do some heavy lifting until the kids are ready and durable enough to step up.

Creative LP, very creative ^-^

Nowhere near as bad as the Betts deal, yet posters keep banging on about Thomas.

Maybe it's time then for a bit of "banging on" about Eddie now?  ;)

The only true measure of the Thomas trade (as with any trade) is whether we would do it again, knowing what we know now.

His on field leadership may be crap, or it may be better than anyone in the comp - no one knows for sure. Perhaps it's laudable to try and salvage something from what has been a bad trade.

And I would also add that judging by our performances since 2014, his on field directions are either not very good, or else they're going unheeded.

Even not knowing what we know now, the answer is simple, No. SOS and co. wouldn't do that deal even if they were high on crack.

Even not knowing what we know now, the answer is simple, No. SOS and co. wouldn't do that deal even if they were high on crack.

Yes. It's the club we should be filthy with, not Daisy. Nobody likes the Daisy deal, but he hasn't done anything wrong. His manager did what any decent manager does, and searched for the best deal. And the mighty CFC, doing what it does best, was there, chequebook in hand, ready to do business.

Yes. It's the club we should be filthy with, not Daisy. Nobody likes the Daisy deal, but he hasn't done anything wrong. His manager did what any decent manager does, and searched for the best deal. And the mighty CFC, doing what it does best, was there, chequebook in hand, ready to do business.

Yep, like it or not we have to make the most of it or pay him out - that's our choice.

We'll know that we are again a force in the competition when discussions like the Thomas and Betty deals are simply part of Carlton folklore and not a major debating point.

We'll know that we are again a force in the competition when discussions like the Thomas and Betty deals are simply part of Carlton folklore and not a major debating point.

Quite so.

We'll know that we are again a force in the competition when discussions like the Thomas and Betty deals are simply part of Carlton folklore and not a major debating point.

All going well it may not be long before discussion centres on:
- pick 13 ...... Brownlow
- the deal of the decade (GWS 4 way roll of the dice)
- Kreuzer to Flipper... Seamless transition

And other club's discussion centers on:
- how to sneak goals past the sensational six
- Eddie Betts mk2, how to stop the Blues next generation goal sneak

etc. etc... OK now I'm Carlton dreaming, but we're heading in the right direction IMO.

So by the same logic Armfield only learned to be a leader in the off-season then?

Cmon man, you're clutching at straws. Just let it go.

You've boosted Thomas since the ill-fated decision was made Kruddler.  When it was apparent that his best footy was behind him, you started bleating about his leadership and professionalism.  You must enjoy flogging dead horses :)

You've boosted Thomas since the ill-fated decision was made Kruddler.  When it was apparent that his best footy was behind him, you started bleating about his leadership and professionalism.  You must enjoy flogging dead horses :)

That is being a bit selective DJC. As you well know many of us for some extended period had wanted a Thomas type because our list was full of Church Mice. We needed a voice on and off the field, someone who doesn't shrink when they are challenged or highlighted.

Many of us post when we see Plowman or Weitering push back against opponents, recently SOJ as well.

Why is that so DJC, is our club so different?

You've boosted Thomas since the ill-fated decision was made Kruddler.  When it was apparent that his best footy was behind him, you started bleating about his leadership and professionalism.  You must enjoy flogging dead horses :)

Now you are flat out lying.

I've already stated my position on him repeatedly.

FWIW, here is my comments on him after watching him in the pre-season match in his first year (warts and all)

First things first...
Daisy...i love this kid! He will do for this club what Judd did when he came across. Will set the bar higher based on how he plays and acts. On numerous occasions he was very vocal around the stoppages ensuring everyone was in the right setups. I cannot recall any other player being as vocal. He seems to have picked up our structures better than our current players. I have great faith in him and the new kids could do a lot worse than trying to emulate the way he goes about it.

Of course his footballing ability is definitely worthy of a mention. He brings gut running to another level. Saved a few goals by chasing opponents deep into defence, even when it was not his direct opponent. He goes when he needs to go. He is not selfish. He is quick. He is was skillful. He is everything you want from a footballer. I can see why Mick loves him.

The only thing i'd change about that is highlighted.

Now like is possible with any player, injuries have ruined him. STILL that doesn't change his attitude and leadership qualities which i've backed him on since day dot.

You continue to make $h!t up, and it's getting tiresome.
It hasn't worked out, i and everyone else have accepted that. That is through no fault of his own though.

I think you just shot down your own argument Kruddler  ::)

I think you just shot down your own argument Kruddler  ::)

I'm sure in whatever reality your imagination is providing for you, that makes sense.

But in this one. Far from it.

Lets just leave it at that.

I'm sure in whatever reality your imagination is providing for you, that makes sense.

But in this one. Far from it.

Lets just leave it at that.

With all due respect Krudd, I read the old post a number of times expecting to find reference to you stating back then Daisy was far from his reviosu best. You said you would change a word now but back then, it read like you were suggesting he was performing to his old self. Correct me if I'm wrong, I dont get the purpose of the post otherwise.

With all due respect Krudd, I read the old post a number of times expecting to find reference to you stating back then Daisy was far from his reviosu best. You said you would change a word now but back then, it read like you were suggesting he was performing to his old self. Correct me if I'm wrong, I dont get the purpose of the post otherwise.

That was based off his first game with us. What would turn out to be his kicking issues, wasn't evident from that 1 game. Since then, it's been pretty clear. We've heard his ankle was so bad he had to learn how to walk, run and kick again during his recovery. A player has a bad kick every game. I'm sure Daisy might have had one in that game. Doesn't suggest his kicking would be forever changed.
So the 1 word i changed was 'IS' skilled, to 'WAS' skilled. on the back of what has happened since. The rest still rings true today.

DJC, said that it was only clear since Daisy became what he calls a liability, that i started pumping up his leadership qualities. An attempt by him to rewrite history and make out that i'm trying to save face. I called him out on it as that has been evident since the first game i saw him play. Daisy's leadership qualities has been the major reason i have been pumping him up since day 1.

That was based off his first game with us. What would turn out to be his kicking issues, wasn't evident from that 1 game. Since then, it's been pretty clear. We've heard his ankle was so bad he had to learn how to walk, run and kick again during his recovery. A player has a bad kick every game. I'm sure Daisy might have had one in that game. Doesn't suggest his kicking would be forever changed.
So the 1 word i changed was 'IS' skilled, to 'WAS' skilled. on the back of what has happened since. The rest still rings true today.

DJC, said that it was only clear since Daisy became what he calls a liability, that i started pumping up his leadership qualities. An attempt by him to rewrite history and make out that i'm trying to save face. I called him out on it as that has been evident since the first game i saw him play. Daisy's leadership qualities has been the major reason i have been pumping him up since day 1.

ok, fair enough.

Give it up for goodness sake, he is terrible, we cannot move forward as a club until we get him off the list. Worst highest paid player in football ever

Give it up for goodness sake, he is terrible, we cannot move forward as a club until we get him off the list. Worst highest paid player in football ever

All due respect to Thomas but acquiring his services  was a shocking boo boo , we won't live it down untill he's long gone.
Huge negligence and dereliction of duty,  unacceptable.

That is being a bit selective DJC. As you well know many of us for some extended period had wanted a Thomas type because our list was full of Church Mice. We needed a voice on and off the field, someone who doesn't shrink when they are challenged or highlighted.

Many of us post when we see Plowman or Weitering push back against opponents, recently SOJ as well.

Why is that so DJC, is our club so different?

Some folk may have wanted a "Thomas type" added to our list in 2013, but I suspect their first priority was a bloke who could play footy and hold down a key forward post.

It's interesting to read the "Doubting Thomas" thread.  Indeed, many posters thought that Thomas would be a good addition - because of his football ability.  A few folk felt that it was a poor decision but that became a majority when the season started and most realised how far off the pace he was.

For example, Brettie was in favour of bringing Daisy on board, but then reality set in:

Just showed some footage of Thomas kicking goals from 50m when at the Pies, when he used look like a player to fear. As Garry Lyon then correctly stated, Daisy looks frail these days, which is exactly what I thought when I saw him for the first in a Carlton guernsey in the pre-game warm-up of round 1, whereby I said to my mate that he looked like a school boy having a kick with his idols.

FMD....what have we done???

I have no doubt that Daisy tries his best and his experience may have some value.  However, it seems that his body is not up playing AFL footy at the level he achieved at Collingwood.  You can have the biggest mouth around but it's meaningless if you can't back it up with your actions.

Anyone who thought Thomas played well in his first games for us must not have been paying attention.  He was ordinary, not particularly vocal and definitely not someone our younger players could look up to.  Indeed, one of the criticisms Robert Walls made of Thomas was his tendency to be a clown at training.

Anyway, back to the thread topic: My expectation is that Thomas will be given a couple of games before being overtaken by one of our youngsters.  He may play out the season in the NBs but I suspect that he will develop an injury and go on to the LTI list.

Two things I think most here will agree looking at Daisy 2017 and forward:

1. Based on JLT output, very very unlikely to play the minimum number of games (unless it's less than 5) required to trigger an extra year; and

2. Presuming 1., his departure will free up a lot of money to buy a very good player - one who can actually still play and contribute to team success in a meaningful way for several years.

Nothing against Daisy, but I look forward to the day his retirement (or LTI) is announced and even more when the new recruit is wheeled out.

MM surely did a number on CFC, no one ever forget that....

Two things I think most here will agree looking at Daisy 2017 and forward:

1. Based on JLT output, very very unlikely to play the minimum number of games (unless it's less than 5) required to trigger an extra year; and

2. Presuming 1., his departure will free up a lot of money to buy a very good player - one who can actually still play and contribute to team success in a meaningful way for several years.

Nothing against Daisy, but I look forward to the day his retirement (or LTI) is announced and even more when the new recruit is wheeled out.

MM surely did a number on CFC, no one ever forget that....

I believe he's no longer on that big money, so it's a misconception that retiring him is a financial win.

Like Judd in his last year, as I understand it, in 2017 Daisy is playing for a fraction of the cash he was on in his early seasons and if he gets an extension it won't be at the same dollars as his starting wage but an extension of the 2017 rate. They both had front loaded contracts.

I expect one thing for sure from Bolton, fairness, because if the players see he isn't fair he will lose them and his coaching career is shot. Coaches must reward effort, if Daisy puts in the effort he'll be played just like any other player will be played. That is why the Lloyd article is so much bullcrap, you cannot gift players games regardless of effort. Bolton won't disrespect effort, not unless someone at our club is interfering in which case Bolton needs to make sure everybody knows who is pulling the strings.

I believe he's no longer on that big money, so it's a misconception that retiring him is a financial win.

Like Judd in his last year, as I understand it, in 2017 Daisy is playing for a fraction of the cash he was on in his early seasons and if he gets an extension it won't be at the same dollars as his starting wage but an extension of the 2017 rate. They both had front loaded contracts.

I expect one thing for sure from Bolton, fairness, because if the players see he isn't fair he will lose them and his coaching career is shot. Coaches must reward effort, if Daisy puts in the effort he'll be played just like any other player will be played. That is why the Lloyd article is so much bullcrap, you cannot gift players games regardless of effort. Bolton won't disrespect effort, not unless someone at our club is interfering in which case Bolton needs to make sure everybody knows who is pulling the strings.

If that is happening, we may as well padlock the front doors and hand the keys back as we can't be saved from our own stupidity.

If that is happening, we may as well padlock the front doors and hand the keys back as we can't be saved from our own stupidity.

It would be just as stupid not to play someone like Daisy just because we have a kid on the list that we hope fills his spot. Respect the effort, reward players for effort, but the effort must come before the reward.

If we don't want to play the likes of Daisy, then we should do as the Dawks did and offload the older guys.

But we didn't offload those types so I expect we'll play them if they deserve a spot.

That was based off his first game with us. What would turn out to be his kicking issues, wasn't evident from that 1 game. Since then, it's been pretty clear. We've heard his ankle was so bad he had to learn how to walk, run and kick again during his recovery. A player has a bad kick every game. I'm sure Daisy might have had one in that game. Doesn't suggest his kicking would be forever changed.
So the 1 word i changed was 'IS' skilled, to 'WAS' skilled. on the back of what has happened since. The rest still rings true today.

DJC, said that it was only clear since Daisy became what he calls a liability, that i started pumping up his leadership qualities. An attempt by him to rewrite history and make out that i'm trying to save face. I called him out on it as that has been evident since the first game i saw him play. Daisy's leadership qualities has been the major reason i have been pumping him up since day 1.

You wanted to pay 750k a year for leadership abilities?...you look at GC who picked up Barlow for that reason, half the money, is already in their best players every week(JLT series) and getting the footy 30 times
a game...thats what we needed.
Mick gave his lovechild a retirement pension after Collingwood's medicos failed Daisy and ours passed him???....and now we are stuck with a player who cant kick 30m, cant run and who will get a  game every week
due to the large amount of money we are paying him because its too embarassing to have him play for the NB's...
We never learn from our mistakes thats part of the reason we remain down the ladder....

You wanted to pay 750k a year for leadership abilities?...you look at GC who picked up Barlow for that reason, half the money, is already in their best players every week(JLT series) and getting the footy 30 times
a game...thats what we needed.
Mick gave his lovechild a retirement pension after Collingwood's medicos failed Daisy and ours passed him???....and now we are stuck with a player who cant kick 30m, cant run and who will get a  game every week
due to the large amount of money we are paying him because its too embarassing to have him play for the NB's...
We never learn from our mistakes thats part of the reason we remain down the ladder....

EB1, besides player development I think the on-field leadership has been the biggest void at our club, what is it worth if we could actually find a player willing to come to us?

I fear that we'll play the youth before they are mentally and physically ready and the lack of leadership will effectively throw them to the wolves. The opposition will damage them permanently from a Carlton perspective, and then when we are tired and frustrated with their lack of progress from those youth we'll trade them out only to watch them become stars in the fresh environment.

Lets not let other ALF clubs make our youth their bitch, lets be smart about managing them!

You wanted to pay 750k a year for leadership abilities?...you look at GC who picked up Barlow for that reason, half the money, is already in their best players every week(JLT series) and getting the footy 30 times
a game...thats what we needed.
Mick gave his lovechild a retirement pension after Collingwood's medicos failed Daisy and ours passed him???....and now we are stuck with a player who cant kick 30m, cant run and who will get a  game every week
due to the large amount of money we are paying him because its too embarassing to have him play for the NB's...
We never learn from our mistakes thats part of the reason we remain down the ladder....

I don't know the dynamics of the playing group and where Daisy fits in so I'm guessing but I would have thought that we should be fading Daisy out asap this year. His presence is emblematic of a very troubled period in our history and one we need to put behind us immediately. Daisy, unfortunately, is a constant reminder. So, unless he can really add some on field spark and really motivate our young guys - fade him out by maybe just using him as insurance or doing a deal with him to retire early.

Daisy, unfortunately, is a constant reminder.

Reminder for who, the players around him or you as a supporter?

If you are writing in respect to the playing group, that seems to contradict official reports that came out of the club in 2015/2016. They seem to indicate Daisy stepped up his off-field presence after his shoulder injury and became a positive influence. I even recall Murphy and Gibbs defending him in the media.

As a supporter what Daisy reminds you of matters very little, and I'd expect the club to ignore it in 2017!

Bottom line, if Daisy (like all others) isn't good enough to get a game (ie. his form is not good enough) then play someone else. Unfortunately, he ain't no world beater anymore. Would be hoping we expose the likes of Cuningham, Fisher and SPS to see what they have - maybe that's at the expense of Thomas and/or someone else. We'll see.

EB1, besides player development I think the on-field leadership has been the biggest void at our club, what is it worth if we could actually find a player willing to come to us?

I fear that we'll play the youth before they are mentally and physically ready and the lack of leadership will effectively throw them to the wolves. The opposition will damage them permanently from a Carlton perspective, and then when we are tired and frustrated with their lack of progress from those youth we'll trade them out only to watch them become stars in the fresh environment.

Lets not let other ALF clubs make our youth their bitch, lets be smart about managing them!

LP.....GC and WC both went after players ie Barlow and Mitchell to provide on field leadership and in Mitchells case Premiership winning experience......the difference between them and Daisy is they can still get a kick and contribute on the field...Daisy was cooked when we got him, 750K for what we got would get the hirer sacked at most companies....
Dont disagree our youth need leadership and guidance, we just picked the wrong player at the wrong price....you put Sam Mitchell in our team and see what he would do in comparison to Daisy....

Reminder for who, the players around him or you as a supporter?

If you are writing in respect to the playing group, that seems to contradict official reports that came out of the club in 2015/2016. They seem to indicate Daisy stepped up his off-field presence after his shoulder injury and became a positive influence. I even recall Murphy and Gibbs defending him in the media.

As a supporter what Daisy reminds you of matters very little, and I'd expect the club to ignore it in 2017!

There is a significant number of posts on here on a regular basis talking about Daisy - you are one of a number of contributors and I admit to making the occasional contribution myself. So I guess he is a constant reminder for many on here, often leading down the well worn path of MM's tenure at CFC. And after all, this is a forum for supporters to voice their opinions, or is yours the only one that really matters?.

As to his effect on the club, once again you do not read carefully enough. If you had taken that trouble before going off half cocked (AGAIN!) you would have noticed that I did state that I was not presuming what effect he was having on the club as I do not have that information, just raising it as a discussion point.

Dont disagree our youth need leadership and guidance, we just picked the wrong player at the wrong price....you put Sam Mitchell in our team and see what he would do in comparison to Daisy....

Possibly EB1.

The likes of Mitchell and Barlow were not available at the time, and would they have come to a club under the Malthouse regime, was it an attractive regime?

I think our club looks like a far better destination at the moment, with or without Daisy, as long as we are seen to be doing the right thing.

I expect that as we become a more attractive destination, the dissenters and critics from other clubs like Lloyd, Dunstall, etc., etc., will become louder and louder. Why, simply because we are all competing for the same player resources.

Could it be that the affinity GWS types have for SOS is leaving opposition clubs a little fearful? It's not like we are picking up low draft picks is it?

As to his effect on the club, once again you do not read carefully enough. If you had taken that trouble before going off half cocked (AGAIN!) you would have noticed that I did state that I was not presuming what effect he was having on the club as I do not have that information, just raising it as a discussion point.

It's no accident I raise the issue Cookie2. I read what you post from two perspectives, cursory and carefully. I raise these issues because it's easy for readers to misinterpret posts, especially if comments are read in isolation.

I expect that won't change in 2017.

It's no accident I raise the issue Cookie2. I read what you post from two perspectives, cursory and carefully. I raise these issues because it's easy for readers to misinterpret posts, especially if comments are read in isolation.

I expect that won't change in 2017.

If others have issues with what I post then I'm very happy for them to take them up with me themselves.

Though we went down the Smedts, Palmer road, I'n not unhappy to have them - they were cheap gets. The deal to snare Marchbank and Pickett is a ripper really. I'm very excited by these two - added to the past two year's list of recruits. Exposure, development, confidence, momentum, injury-free. We need this from the whole list, but those young blokes need this is a big way. Can't wait for the season to start!

Some bigger bodied mids I did want - were Koby Stevens, Jack Steele and Mick Barlow. I was keen on the first two particularly as younger players, then we missed out. It's water under the bridge now, but I'm hoping we get some more size and strength in the midfield at seasons end (ie. GWS's Matt Kennedy and the Dogs Lin Jong). Who knows, maybe Charlie Curnow muscles his way into the midfield in 2017 to help out Crippa!

Though we went down the Smedts, Palmer road, I'n not unhappy to have them - they were cheap gets. The deal to snare Marchbank and Pickett is a ripper really. I'm very excited by these two - added to the past two year's list of recruits. Exposure, development, confidence, momentum, injury-free. We need this from the whole list, but those young blokes need this is a big way. Can't wait for the season to start!

Agree. I heard Lyon say something on SEN this morning about GWS that I never considered or put into context. He was talking about how they are flag favorites and to put that into context, he said "think about the best kid or two on your list. Well GWS have 30 of them".

If others have issues with what I post then I'm very happy for them to take them up with me themselves.

It's surprising how many people read this stuff but don't post.

I expect there are plenty of posters here who have more than one identity as well! :D

I expect there are plenty of posters here who have more than one identity as well! :D

You could be right 99!  8)

It's surprising how many people read this stuff but don't post.

I expect there are plenty of posters here who have more than one identity as well! :D

I was discussing that very issue with my alter ego this morning  ;)

It's when they start arguing with themselves that I get a bit concerned ;D

I was discussing that very issue with my alter ego this morning  ;)

I had the same conversation! :D

It's when they start arguing with themselves that i get a bit concerned ;D

Is there any other way? :o It's the very best way to win!  ;)

It's surprising how many people read this stuff but don't post.

I expect there are plenty of posters here who have more than one identity as well! :D

If you adopt a "play the post, not the poster" strategy, it probably shouldn't matter. But I still feel there's  something quite right about that.  

If you adopt a "play the post, not the poster" strategy, it probably shouldn't matter. But I still feel there's  something quite right about that.

Dorothy Dixer
Def: - The term references American advice columnist Dorothy Dix's reputed practice of making up her own questions to allow her to publish more interesting answers.[2] "Dorothy Dixer" has been used in Australian politics since the 1950s, and has become increasingly common in everyday usage, although the term is now frequently shortened to "Dixer". However, the term is virtually unknown in other countries where Dix's column was equally popular.

I was discussing that very issue with my alter ego this morning  ;)

Actually, that's suggested a possible new thread - "Get to know my alter ego" - what do you think?  :)

Some people may even have more than one!  :o

You wanted to pay 750k a year for leadership abilities?...you look at GC who picked up Barlow for that reason, half the money, is already in their best players every week(JLT series) and getting the footy 30 times
a game...thats what we needed.
Mick gave his lovechild a retirement pension after Collingwood's medicos failed Daisy and ours passed him???....and now we are stuck with a player who cant kick 30m, cant run and who will get a  game every week
due to the large amount of money we are paying him because its too embarassing to have him play for the NB's...
We never learn from our mistakes thats part of the reason we remain down the ladder....

I didnt write the cheques, nor condone the cash. That is another conversation.

I suspect the list of senior players with leadership qualities that antedto come to carlton was a rather short one.

Actually, that's suggested a possible new thread - "Get to know my alter ego" - what do you think?  :)

Some people may even have more than one!  :o

Call it "The United States of Tara Thread"

Call it "The United States of Tara Thread"

I enjoyed that series very much :)

However, I'm a little concerned that we may find that some CSC posters don't have one personality, let alone multiples  ;)

Agree. I heard Lyon say something on SEN this morning about GWS that I never considered or put into context. He was talking about how they are flag favorites and to put that into context, he said "think about the best kid or two on your list. Well GWS have 30 of them".

And there's probably another 20-30 exGWS players on other club's lists.

SOS nailed the strategy for them in a way that GC missed. They should both be pushing for the GF this year but GC got pretty much everything wrong. Draft/trade strategy, culture, facilities, injury management, salary cap management, coach appointments... it's been an epic stuff up which only looks all the worse for GWS success.

Re. expectations for 2017 the Age experts predict that Carlton will push for 7-8 wins this year. I'd sign up for that right now. Our disposal right across the JLT series was wooden spoon stuff. Maybe that will clean up as we come into the season proper but that is the challenge at this point. We were miles off even a basic level of decision making / disposal accuracy.

And there's probably another 20-30 exGWS players on other club's lists.

SOS nailed the strategy for them in a way that GC missed. They should both be pushing for the GF this year but GC got pretty much everything wrong. Draft/trade strategy, culture, facilities, injury management, salary cap management, coach appointments... it's been an epic stuff up which only looks all the worse for GWS success.

Re. expectations for 2017 the Age experts predict that Carlton will push for 7-8 wins this year. I'd sign up for that right now. Our disposal right across the JLT series was wooden spoon stuff. Maybe that will clean up as we come into the season proper but that is the challenge at this point. We were miles off even a basic level of decision making / disposal accuracy.

So much doom and gloom for us in 2017!

Yet we have Murphy back and have added new talent in Marchbank, Pickett (both top 10 draftees with injuries seemingly now behind them and only 20 odd), Palmer (former top 10er who was good enough to play in GWS's PF side), Smedts (former #15 pick who has an almost bizarre injury laden career), SPS (once touted as the best 16yo in the country by a mile), Zac Fisher and the rest of that gang eg Polson, Macreadie (also touted as top 5 till GWS uprooted him) et al. And SOS's cousin.

Then there's blokes like Charlie Curnow, Harry Mc, and even Jacob W. who will begin to shine...

Yet all you MSM soaked sheep say we'll go backwards after a few JLT blow outs.

Shame the f.... on you.

Dude, once we get to the bye, you will either be the exalted one, or your world will coming crashing down around you.

Don't worry, all our crystal balls are from the same $2 shop. Some just slap a Chopard label on them because apparently it makes them more accurate.

MSM soaked sheep - man, that's weird.

I think we will empower youth more this year and youth tend to struggle early so I think we might not win 7 games in 2017. But really I have no idea.

Like the positivity Flyboy, you always seem to view the glass half full.

I remember going to the infamous Essendon "what are those blokes on" match in 2012... it was a sunny day and I thought we were a contender about to smash our hated enemy... nothing has quite been the same since. Elimination final win over Richmond was a little ray of sunshine. But the optimism has been beaten out of me in that time.

Like the positivity Flyboy, you always seem to view the glass half full.

I remember going to the infamous Essendon "what are those blokes on" match in 2012... it was a sunny day and I thought we were a contender about to smash our hated enemy... nothing has quite been the same since. Elimination final win over Richmond was a little ray of sunshine. But the optimism has been beaten out of me in that time.

That was when (name escapes me - Lonergan?) pile drove Carrots into the turf early in Q1.

Carrots was in career best form and arguably never returned to that level.

That was when (name escapes me - Lonergan?) pile drove Carrots into the turf early in Q1.

Carrots was in career best form and arguably never returned to that level.

Sam Lonergan - cut at the end of the 2012 season.

Thanks for nothing, maggot.

I don't really get the MSM Sheep reference??!!

In terms of comparing to last year, it depends a fair bit on your perspective of how we performed last year given it was a season of 2 distinctive and opposing halves. Our first half of the year was good after a rocky start, and we won 6 in 7 weeks which is our best run of form for many many years. But in the back half we won 1 from 11 and were terrible in some of those games. We lost to the teams who came last and 2nd last over the last 3 rounds - a pretty good indication of where we are at IMO.

I tend to believe our most recent form is the most relevant to where we are at and what I base my judgement on. We essentially have no established forward-line or goal kicking power, and hence we will struggle to win games.

We have a bunch of talented youngsters, but history shows if you run out with a team half full [or more] of players in their first or 2nd years you are going to get pumped more often than not.

I pray I'm wrong, and that we take the Tigers by surprise on Thursday, but I think we are in for a long long year of pain.

I don't really get the MSM Sheep reference??!!

MainStream Media, aka Weathervane!

Yet all you MSM soaked sheep say we'll go backwards after a few JLT blow outs.

Shame the f.... on you.

Pretty sure i said it before the jlt series.  >:D

Shame on me for having an opinion?

Which according to the poll is, believe it or not, is the clear majority view.

Sam Lonergan - cut at the end of the 2012 season.

Thanks for nothing, maggot.

Was he the same peanut who injured Gibbs's shoulder in the 2011 Elimination final?

Was he the same peanut who injured Gibbs's shoulder in the 2011 Elimination final?

No, that was Jake Carlisle. My memory is a little rusty, but I think Gibbs tripped and JC fell on him. Not sure though.

No, that was Jake Carlisle. My memory is a little rusty, but I think Gibbs tripped and JC fell on him. Not sure though.

Just like "they fell" across Weiters shoulder! ;)

So did the club meet your expectations this year?
Perhaps a poll?

For mine, they met my prediction (14-16th in the predictions thread and 2-5 wins in this thread) and their game play in being in games late exceeded my predictions and to me...

The season has to be a FAIL. Unlike some others I don't think it is Bolton, his coaching the development of his gameplan. I think the list management did not cut heavy enough.

I think we ended up with the type of season we would have had (and say the bombers had last year), if we had gone for a massive cut, but it is done now.

I do believe in the the rebuild and i do think we are on our way, but I think the club failed us a little with list management.

Anyway, did the club perform to your EXPECTATIONS of where the clubs should be this year?

So did the club meet your expectations this year?
Perhaps a poll?

For mine, they met my prediction (14-16th in the predictions thread and 2-5 wins in this thread) and their game play in being in games late exceeded my predictions and to me...

The season has to be a FAIL. Unlike some others I don't think it is Bolton, his coaching the development of his gameplan. I think the list management did not cut heavy enough.

I think we ended up with the type of season we would have had (and say the bombers had last year), if we had gone for a massive cut, but it is done now.

I do believe in the the rebuild and i do think we are on our way, but I think the club failed us a little with list management.

Anyway, did the club perform to your EXPECTATIONS of where the clubs should be this year?

There is no way this year is a fail. You can only cut so much as there's only so many replacements. No issues with list management. We've taken on some average players but only as steak knives. As far as the draft has gone we have pretty much nailed it the last 2 years.

6 wins, 5 rising star nominations, 7 matches where we led in the last qtr and lost and we gave some top sides misery. The only game that really disappointed me this year was the Brisbane game when. after a couple of good games against good sides, we had a let down and didn't switch on. As for the game plan Bolton has followed previous successful methods in getting the defence strong before initiated a more attacking plan. We've learned to change up the course of a game when we've fallen behind early.

Given the circumstances of where we are at this year has been a narrow pass.

Tim Watson gave us just a pass (5/10) last night on Talking Footy.....I thought his summary was pretty fair.

So

There is no way this is a fail?
So when we decided to keep the list together last year, those that argued against cutting deeper argued you can't afford to continue to bottom out.
So, winning 2 less games and finishing lower on the ladder... there is NO WAY this can be considered a failure?

I disagree.

I think the coaching staff has done as well as I would expect. I don't have an issue there.
I think the club has performed at about the level I PREDICTED, as in I thought we already had the worst list and 14-16th was going to be the result, no matter how hard we traded out our top players.

So with us performing at a level that saw us bottom 3 (and make no mistake, I think we will go to that 10th area on the ladder next year), I think we missed a chance to bring in even more youth and to try and find homes for some of our elder players (who actually had good seasons in my opinion).

So I think with the playing list we performed adequately and developed players nicely, but I think the board cannot get a free pass forever. I think drafting players like Smedts was a perfect example of horrible list management.

I give our coaches a 5-7/10 this year, this list they maintained to me was still the worst (or close to worst) list in the competition.
But I give our football club, overall... about a 3/10.
And if they don't get into that top 10 next year, then there will need to be serious ramifications and it should not start with the coach.

Pumping our own tyres up again are we MIO?

There was a clear policy to play kids at the expense of more established types that undoubtedly costs us games - how many games did we lose when we were ahead in the last quarter?

Compare North who some scribes say - wow they can jump quickly next year as they lost 6 games by less than 3 goals. We beat that easily....

And injuries hurt us too - losing Curnow and Cripps and AcoS/Rowe

If the young blokes - Fisher, Samo, Curnow, Weiters, Cuners, Willo, SoJ,Pickett etc can all become solid performers in 2018 thanks to the game time invested in them this year - well that is a big win for the Club - and the supporters.

McKay showed too he can perform at the highest level - no reason he can't what the Daniher kid has done - and he's a bigger unit.....

Like it or not, I consider Gibbs will go, probably Levi too.

But the new ins - Kelly, Hopper, Saunders, another seasoned mid or two eg Jye Bolton....and a seasoned ruckman....

I believe we'll crack the 8 next year.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-09-20/excollingwood-rookie-wins-sandover-medal (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-09-20/excollingwood-rookie-wins-sandover-medal)

Four of the previous 10 Sandover medallists have gone on to play in the AFL, including Brownlow medallist Matt Priddis (2006), All Australian Hayden Ballantyne (2008), Andrew Krakouer (2010) and Kane Mitchell (2012).

Bolton had a stunning season for Claremont. He averaged 29 disposals across 20 games. He won the Simpson medal as best afield in WA's state game against Tasmania, where he gathered 46 disposals and kicked two goals in a 134-point win in June.

He also caught the eye of Fremantle coach Ross Lyon who made special mention of his performance on NAB AFL Rising Star nominee Connor Blakely in Claremont's round 19 win over Fremantle's WAFL-affiliate club Peel Thunder.

Bolton said he is far better placed to handle AFL football now than he was during his time at Collingwood in 2011.

"When I was 18 I think it might have been a little bit too early for me," Bolton said.

"But I think I've learned a lot now and developed my game to a point where I can contribute to a list at a high level. That's just the goal. I just want to play my role for whatever the coach says to the best of my ability and hopefully that can get me to where I want to be."

Bolton said he has added roughly 10kg of size since his time in the AFL system and feels he is a far better contested player as a result, complementing his natural running capacity.

......................................

I believe we'll crack the 8 next year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that was your prediction for this season as well ?

IMO, no way we will make the 8 next season.

For the sake of unity and club cohesion we need to create an environment where there is no room for folks to start doubting we are on the right track.
That means we have to show real signs of progress.
Some see that in terms of improved on-field efforts....green shoots.
I believe that's a little too intangible and that it has to be progress in terms of games won and ladder positions.
Its why I believe last place would be a disaster...it's because of the detrimental effect it would have on our confidence and unity.
Once the cracks appear in a clubs path we all know how quickly they widen and once that starts it's hard to reverse that process....only success stops that!


Not expecting finals but..... 9th to 12th
9-10 wins.

If we're basing it on our own expectations I'd have to give it 49/100.
That's probably because my expectations were too high. :D

The reason it wasn't a major fail (the disaster) in my opinion  was there were some good signs from the youngsters and we were generally a lot more competitive.

We only dropped a game in terms of games won... but lost a couple of spots on the ladder.
That's because some sides progressed, while we basically played a 'standing still' game.
Results took a secondary role to experimentation and getting games into youngsters.

So here are the things I'll be looking at in the coming months.

Once a season finishes some of the 'unity of effort' dissipates. Some players look for a change of club others are discarded or traded. It's the time of year where any off field grievances that have been bottled up sometimes surface. So I'll be looking for signs that folk are holding the line and are committed to the approach we've embarked upon.

While there is a strong focus on our youth, our wins this year have come on the backs of strong performances from our senior players. Look at the Jim Park voting for those games and there's only a sprinkling of the younger group. If we lose some of that senior experience we need the youngsters to really step up or bring in some talented mature (22-23+ year olds)

Forwards...If we go into 2018 without a strong Key forward (or two) expect another dismal year. We need to find 50 more goals from somewhere.  Lose Casboult and there's another 20-30 we start behind. Hopefully Curnow, McKay and others can supply some of that but we really need to bolster this area. An improved midfield may provide greater opportunities but we still need those 'finishers'.

Lots of talk about who we might pick up through trade but until they're here we aren't any better.
Cripps desperately needs help and just how important he is to our efforts was shown when he was injured.

The club have been really good at selling the rebuild.
How would we be regarding this season if they hadn't been able to convince folks that it was a long term thing?
I'm surprised there hasn't been a bit more fragility in the faith of supporters...but it seems to be holding.
Wins like the Hawthorn game buy some time...too many results like the Swans game will cause a few cracks.

Pumping our own tyres up again are we MIO?

By stating that I believe we failed to meet expectations?
Or by my prediction being right?


Look at the prediction thread Flyboy, 14th-16th was EASILY the most selected prediction. Hardly claiming to be Nostradamus.

I am revisiting a prediction/expectation thread because the season has ended, isn't that the reason for those threads?

Of course your comment below suggests you thought we would do otherwise and shame the f.... on anyone else who thought otherwise right?

Yet all you MSM soaked sheep say we'll go backwards after a few JLT blow outs.

Shame the f.... on you.

Every club suffers from injuries, our club I doubt was particularly outside of averages in that, if anything for 12-13 weeks we were quite lucky.

As for this...

But the new ins - Kelly, Hopper, Saunders, another seasoned mid or two eg Jye Bolton....and a seasoned ruckman....

How is that different to any club?
They would improve any club, doesn't mean we would get them.

North played I think more debutants than we did (I think, I haven't checked), if they added Kelly & Hopper I am sure they would expect to challenge as well.. Oh and they have a McKay twin that hasn't made it either...

Lods.

I agree that the club has sold the rebuild well and ironically I don't actually really care that we had losses this year and I expected it. I also don't disagree with any comments we have some really good kids and I believe Bolts can coach and we will improve.

But I do believe that the honeymoon period ended on Round 23 2017.
Bolts can't come into next year saying we are only 2 1/2 years into a complete rebuild, players only have x number of games etc.

Also you are right, until a player signs for us, we have our current list.

I will be VERY interested to see the expectation/prediction threads next year

Everyone likes to point at hawthorn regarding how quickly it can change, and that feels great, but let's re think this a little.

The Bulldogs started rebuilding their list for last year's flag about seven years ago.

Richmond have finished top 4 this year but the foundation for that started getting laid ten years ago where they cut deep and went to the draft heavily picking up blokes like Ben Nason for a late draft pick, looked impressive in his first season and then vanished.

A few years later some of these guys were delisted even though they played and looked ok early.

Rising star nominations are grand but they give one out every week.  That's 22-23 a season.  Over five years 120+ players are nominated with 5 winners and I reckon half probably don't go on with it.

That's just to temper the arguments and expectations a little.   We have a little way to go, and how we develop from here is more important than anything else.

I'm acutely aware that much of our good form this year has been on the back of seasoned veterans.

So

There is no way this is a fail?
So when we decided to keep the list together last year, those that argued against cutting deeper argued you can't afford to continue to bottom out.
So, winning 2 less games and finishing lower on the ladder... there is NO WAY this can be considered a failure?

I disagree.

I think the coaching staff has done as well as I would expect. I don't have an issue there.
I think the club has performed at about the level I PREDICTED, as in I thought we already had the worst list and 14-16th was going to be the result, no matter how hard we traded out our top players.

So with us performing at a level that saw us bottom 3 (and make no mistake, I think we will go to that 10th area on the ladder next year), I think we missed a chance to bring in even more youth and to try and find homes for some of our elder players (who actually had good seasons in my opinion).

So I think with the playing list we performed adequately and developed players nicely, but I think the board cannot get a free pass forever. I think drafting players like Smedts was a perfect example of horrible list management.

I give our coaches a 5-7/10 this year, this list they maintained to me was still the worst (or close to worst) list in the competition.
But I give our football club, overall... about a 3/10.
And if they don't get into that top 10 next year, then there will need to be serious ramifications and it should not start with the coach.

Think a bit more. We went much younger this this. We had so many teenagers and blokes under 22. We were extremely competitive most of the year against very good sides, have led 7 times in last qtrs before losing and 5 rising star nomination suggesting list management and development is pretty spot on. Make no mistake, very few sides enjoyed playing us as we often made things very difficult for most sides. People who think about will realise this, those that just look at wins/losses are thinking very simply.

Every side has a few crap players on their list. Most of our crappy were steak knives that come with picking good players. List management is the least of our problems. Because of injuries we had to play more of them than we wanted.

Given our circumstances of course it's a pass. Problem is some supporters expect miracles. It's a hard road starting from scratch and you take you little positives as you go.

Everyone likes to point at hawthorn regarding how quickly it can change, and that feels great, but let's re think this a little.

The Bulldogs started rebuilding their list for last year's flag about seven years ago.

Richmond have finished top 4 this year but the foundation for that started getting laid ten years ago where they cut deep and went to the draft heavily picking up blokes like Ben Nason for a late draft pick, looked impressive in his first season and then vanished.

A few years later some of these guys were delisted even though they played and looked ok early.

Rising star nominations are grand but they give one out every week.  That's 22-23 a season.  Over five years 120+ players are nominated with 5 winners and I reckon half probably don't go on with it.

That's just to temper the arguments and expectations a little.   We have a little way to go, and how we develop from here is more important than anything else.

I'm acutely aware that much of our good form this year has been on the back of seasoned veterans.

Your seasoned veterans will carry you while young players develop but make no mistake those young players have shown alot. As for rising stars nomination, yes they do give them out every week but very few clubs receive 5 nominations in a year.

Went like I thought...., I said 3-4 wins, so 5 was a bonus , said bottom 4 finish and if Cripps got injured then we would struggle.......
I'm with MIO...list management still needs work, we have 10-12 players who need moving on but I appreciate you cant fix it all straight away.
The lack of backup for Cripps was what I pointed to at the start of the season and SOS failed to address that and it bit us on the bum...
However we were never a finals chance and it was all about developing kids and on the back of our rising star nominees its a pass for this year.

Next season though it has to be more results driven and we need to progress up the ladder....cannot be bottom 4 again...

Went like I thought...., I said 3-4 wins, so 5 was a bonus , said bottom 4 finish and if Cripps got injured then we would struggle.......
I'm with MIO...list management still needs work, we have 10-12 players who need moving on but I appreciate you cant fix it all straight away.
The lack of backup for Cripps was what I pointed to at the start of the season and SOS failed to address that and it bit us on the bum...
However we were never a finals chance and it was all about developing kids and on the back of our rising star nominees its a pass for this year.

Next season though it has to be more results driven and we need to progress up the ladder....cannot be bottom 4 again...

I'm liking list management. We're developing a good young list. While we still have some strugglers we are gradually weeding them out. Can't do it all at once but we're on the right track. We did get some as steak knives with good players so we didn't lose from getting them. Eventually they'll go. We have actually nailed the last two drafts. It does take time to cover every weakness at once when you start from scratch but we are in the right direction.

Definitely a pass but it's ongoing. Next year requires more wins but if we progress and turn those 7 last qtr leads into wins then we will take off up the ladder. Theoretically, if you win all those 7 you're with the likes of Sydney and Port in the 8. Doesn't work that way admittedly but shows our young side is alot closer than we may think. Key is to go on with it next year.

Progress?

The on field effort couldn't be knocked, variable player effort was a negative in the past.

Got defence (personnel, structure and system) in place.... Note how small fowards don't cut us up like that did.

Amongst the younger players are clearly blokes who will be major players going fowards.

Your seasoned veterans will carry you while young players develop but make no mistake those young players have shown alot. As for rising stars nomination, yes they do give them out every week but very few clubs receive 5 nominations in a year.

Make no mistake.   Ben Nason played twenty games in his debut season from pick 71, and showed a bit.  was delisted at the end of 2011.

We have some impressive youngsters and rising stars are great, but like I said they are not an indication of future success.

I'm simply tempering the expectation.  Levi, Murphy, Kreuzer,  Gibbs, Docherty, Plowman, Wright, Jones, Rowe(before injury) and Thomas have all put together good seasons. The kids will have to step up a lot because if these guys don't backup next season with similar we will be improving to tread water.

That's provided some of these kids don't go backwards too!

We finished exactly where I predicted in the pre season thread. There was a lot of good signs, but also a lot problems that are still a long way from being addressed. My fears about our lack of scoring power came true, and you simply don't win many games having 20 shots or less, which we do almost every week.

The reality is we are coming off such a low base over the last 4 years the only way is up. Our diabolical trading and drafting for 5 years from 2010-2014 means we still have massive holes in the list. At the end of last year we needed to urgently address our issues in big bodied midfielders and forwards - we failed on both accounts and because of this our results are what they are.

Some of the kids look really good, but we need more experienced bigger bodies around them while they develop.

We are still 5 good players [minimum] of being mid tier team - 2 strong mid fielders, 1 medium forward, 1 Key forward and 1 crumbing forward. The issue is we can probably only address 2 of those during the draft/trade for 2018. Smedts and Palmer [and to a lesser extent Kerridge] have failed to provide the stop gap we hoped for this year.

The draft/trade has to be all about forwards and strong mids IMO. If we can't move our scoring up [something we have failed to do for 4 years straight] we will continue to drag along the bottom. McKay is still 2 years away at best.

My expectations for next year - that we will seriously address improving our mid field. Other improvements will flow from that but we'll probably still be a wip.

We finished exactly where I predicted in the pre season thread. There was a lot of good signs, but also a lot problems that are still a long way from being addressed. My fears about our lack of scoring power came true, and you simply don't win many games having 20 shots or less, which we do almost every week.

The reality is we are coming off such a low base over the last 4 years the only way is up. Our diabolical trading and drafting for 5 years from 2010-2014 means we still have massive holes in the list. At the end of last year we needed to urgently address our issues in big bodied midfielders and forwards - we failed on both accounts and because of this our results are what they are.

Some of the kids look really good, but we need more experienced bigger bodies around them while they develop.

We are still 5 good players [minimum] of being mid tier team - 2 strong mid fielders, 1 medium forward, 1 Key forward and 1 crumbing forward. The issue is we can probably only address 2 of those during the draft/trade for 2018. Smedts and Palmer [and to a lesser extent Kerridge] have failed to provide the stop gap we hoped for this year.

The draft/trade has to be all about forwards and strong mids IMO. If we can't move our scoring up [something we have failed to do for 4 years straight] we will continue to drag along the bottom. McKay is still 2 years away at best.

I'm liable to really build the midfield. Of the key forwards I am liking McKay, Curnow and Kerr. Kerr really looked the part in the VFL and Josh Fraser really like him. At 205cm, is McKay makes it he'll be a nightmare with his height. We're likely to lose Levi to free agency but if he knocks back our offer them someone is offering someone good. Means a good compo pick at least, which might with help us get Kelly or another good big bodied mid. I certainly agree with the big bodies.

I'm liable to really build the midfield. Of the key forwards I am liking McKay, Curnow and Kerr. Kerr really looked the part in the VFL and Josh Fraser really like him.

Yep, Kerr looked competitive even when it turned out he was playing with a hip problem.

I know a lot of people doubt Kerr, but I'd like to make a comparison to put things in perspective. Kerr is every bit the same size shape, speed and kick of a young Taylor Walker. That pretty much puts Kerr in the prime category for a KPF role in years to come!

Yep, Kerr looked competitive even when it turned out he was playing with a hip problem.

I know a lot of people doubt Kerr, but I'd like to make a comparison to put things in perspective. Kerr is every bit the same size shape, speed and kick of a young Taylor Walker. That pretty much puts Kerr in the prime category for a KPF role in years to come!

Kerr is a good prospect,  mobile, has some nous and  good skills....I'd be playing him in the pre season games with a view to playing him early in the regular season.
He is another like Mckay who wont learn anything in the NB's playing with duds...

I think we need to be a bit careful putting too much weight on 'getting' rising star nominations.

Dylan Buckley (Rnd 2) and Troy Menzel (Rnd 16) were rising star nominations in 2014.

Identifying the talent is one thing...Developing it is a different thing altogether.

If we've improved in that area the class of 2016-17 will start to show the benefits of that next year.

A statistical analysis will show that you need 25 scoring shots to be average in the comp - this applies this year and is pretty consistent for the last few years. If you have 25 you will win half your games and you will be around the bottom of the 8.

In our 2011 year we averaged 29 shots for 15 wins. We had over 25 shots in 17 of 24 games. Only 2 times did we have 20 or under shots.

Fast forward to 2017 - we average 20 shots per game [rank 18th]. We had 1 game where we had over 25 shots, and 12 games were we had 20 or under. The numbers are actually slightly worse than last year - we went backwards on shots but our accuracy was a bit better.

It is a mathematical certainty that unless we significantly improve our scoring power we won't move up the ladder. A stronger midfield is obviously part of the equation and we need more powerful midfielders to compete for longer in games, but we need to find some quality goal kickers fast. McKay and Kerr are both still 2 years minimum from hopefully being consistent goal kickers, and I hope they develop into world beaters.

It is no surprise that our fall down the ladder has been assisted greatly by our losing consistent goal kickers [Waite, Betts, Gartlett] and our inability to find any via trade or draft any replacements of even equal output. Until this changes we are stuck where we are.

i have to disagree.

The slow, ball movement, keeping off style implemented by BB this year is a deliberate ploy by the Coach to teach the kids the importance of tempo during a game.....

Of course, we need a McKay to step up as a key forward but we showed in a handful of games that we can move the ball quickly and kick a handful of goals or more in a quarter.....

We bolster the midfield and there will, by default, be a lot more I50 entries....

All that aside, would love to see Ben Saunders in the Navy Blue next year!

i have to disagree.

The slow, ball movement, keeping off style implemented by BB this year is a deliberate ploy by the Coach to teach the kids the importance of tempo during a game.....

Of course, we need a McKay to step up as a key forward but we showed in a handful of games that we can move the ball quickly and kick a handful of goals or more in a quarter.....

We bolster the midfield and there will, by default, be a lot more I50 entries....

All that aside, would love to see Ben Saunders in the Navy Blue next year!

Tend to agree. This year has been primarily about player development. Next year will be a development year too but I'm also hoping to see this year's work reflected in our performances and results.

The slow, ball movement, keeping off style implemented by BB this year is a deliberate ploy by the Coach to teach the kids the importance of tempo during a game.....

That I agree with, a slightly different benefit, as I believe that understanding the players defensive roles in a slow motion version of the game will allow them to transition 'by default' at turnovers, without the relentless pressure of everyone being out of position. It will allow them to pinpoint who has fluffed their lines and make sure that player is educated in their roles.

Similar thought pattern, but 100% agree that the slow deliberate hands off football has been part of a greater teaching curve that Bolton is trying to implement and I suspect that the shackles will come off and the tempo will increase next season

Jon Anderson has fixed things for us, we're cured!

THE SOLUTION

Close out more games. Eight times they lost after leading at the 10 minute mark of the last quarter, and in terms of quarters won were competitive with teams around the eight.

Lordy be, so simple! :o

I don't mind Jon he's not a Ralph, but this article is a little thin on detail!

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/carlton/carlton-end-of-season-review-how-id-fix-the-blues/news-story/e25b35e4cc7222eff22948e00fb68d4f (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/carlton/carlton-end-of-season-review-how-id-fix-the-blues/news-story/e25b35e4cc7222eff22948e00fb68d4f)

CARLTON avoided the wooden spoon and, while it didn’t win as many games as 2016, showed significant development in its young list.

JON ANDERSON runs the rule over the Blues’ season and gives his thoughts on what the club needs to do to shoot up the ladder next year.

THE SEASON ROUND UP
If you win one game less and end up with a very similar percentage as last year then it should be nothing to write home about, but reality says the Blues made incremental gains in some key areas.
In 2016 they were on the receiving end of six floggings, a number that was reduced to just two (Port Adelaide and Geelong). Last year they beat just one finalist in Geelong, a number they doubled in beating Sydney and Greater Western Sydney. And they have a clear kick/mark game plan which normally results in them defending turnovers.

THE PROBLEM
Get the game played out of their back half, because the ball spent too long there this year. Player-wise, they are at least two gun midfielders shy of where they need to be for finals action, although one or both of those spots could come from natural development of existing players. They also require another ruckman for depth, because if Matthew Kreuzer fell over it would come down to the injury-plagued Andrew Phillips.
They would also love to see the emergence of one or both of their young forwards in Pat Kerr or Harry McKay to become a marking and leading target.

THE SOLUTION
Close out more games. Eight times they lost after leading at the 10 minute mark of the last quarter, and in terms of quarters won were competitive with teams around the eight.
Part of that comes down to a lack of physical strength.
By extension they also need to finish seasons stronger, given they have won just two of their last 20 games in the back half of the past two years. From what we have seen from Brendon Bolton and his coaching staff, they appear up for the challenge.

THE TARGET
They’re still sweating on key forward Levi Casboult and will be waiting to see if Bryce Gibbs tries to get home to Adelaide again, but the biggest need is ruck help for Kreuzer — and that just might come in the form of Collingwood’s Mason Cox.

They are quietly confident a run at the bottom half of the eight is not out of the question. For that to happen the Blues will need to tinker with a game plan that normally restricts opposition scoring but doesn’t result in free-scoring (only twice in the past 44 games have they passed 100 points).
Being hard to play against, which they generally are, is one thing, but learning a winning culture is a whole new ball game.

THE DREAM/BLUE SKY IDEA
Obviously class in the midfield the likes of Richmond’s Brownlow Medal favourite Dustin Martin or GWS jet Josh Kelly is the dream, but not a reality. That aside, blue sky is for the kids — players such as David Cuningham, Charlie Curnow, Zac Fisher, Harrison Macreadie, Caleb Marchbank, Harry McKay, Sam Petrevski-Seton, Jack Silvagni, Jarrod Pickett, Jacob Weitering and Tom Williamson — continue to develop.
That would mean they challenge for the eight next year, definitely make it the year after and have a real crack in 2020.

GARY BUCKENARA SAYS
Lion Tom Rockliff would definitely be a player of interest. He’s a free agent and suits Carlton’s needs as a bigger-bodied midfielder who wins his own ball and can also hurt on the scoreboard.

THE STATS
FEELING BLUE
STAT   RANKING
Points scored   18th
Points scored from turnovers   17th
Points scored from stoppages   18th
Generating score once inside 50   18th
Offensive ball movement   17th

IN TROUBLE?
Four the Blues could cut:
Daniel Gorringe
Kristian Jaksch
Dylan Buckley
Denis Armfield (Retired)

2018 PREDICTION
9th-16th. I think 2018 is still too early for finals action, but a target of 10 wins is realistic.

So

There is no way this is a fail?
So when we decided to keep the list together last year, those that argued against cutting deeper argued you can't afford to continue to bottom out.
So, winning 2 less games and finishing lower on the ladder... there is NO WAY this can be considered a failure?

I disagree.

I think the coaching staff has done as well as I would expect. I don't have an issue there.
I think the club has performed at about the level I PREDICTED, as in I thought we already had the worst list and 14-16th was going to be the result, no matter how hard we traded out our top players.

So with us performing at a level that saw us bottom 3 (and make no mistake, I think we will go to that 10th area on the ladder next year), I think we missed a chance to bring in even more youth and to try and find homes for some of our elder players (who actually had good seasons in my opinion).

So I think with the playing list we performed adequately and developed players nicely, but I think the board cannot get a free pass forever. I think drafting players like Smedts was a perfect example of horrible list management.

I give our coaches a 5-7/10 this year, this list they maintained to me was still the worst (or close to worst) list in the competition.
But I give our football club, overall... about a 3/10.
And if they don't get into that top 10 next year, then there will need to be serious ramifications and it should not start with the coach.

I took issue with your original prediction for the same reason i take issue with this now.

EVERY club wants to improve their list. Upgrade senior players and bring in more youth. However, like with Gibbs, if what you can get is of lesser value to you than what you have, you dont do the deal, otherwise your list is worse.
Makes sense right.
But, as i said on page 1, it takes 2 to tango. You can sell if nobody is buying.

So the club failed because (potentially) nobody wanted our players? I can't buy that.

I agree we should've cashed in, but again you need someone to pay.

Given what we had available, the season went as well as i had predicted and expected.

Next years prediction comes after we finalise our list.

Pressure should be applied to everyone at the club to improve by alot.

At the start of the year I thought we would win between 7 + 10 games and would be among the also rans. In previous seasons the ladder has usually broken up into 4 groups, the good sides, the mediocre, the also rans and the poor. Usually with 5 good sides, 5 mediocre, 4-5 also rans and 3-4 poor sides. This year the ladder has broken into 3 distinct groups. 6 good sides, 7 mediocre sides and 5 poor sides. Of the 5 games we played against the other poor sides, we only won one. This is something we need to look at. If we had won 3 of those five, we would have won 8 for the year and the debate about whether the team has improved would be more clear. Carlton needs to kick 1 goal a quarter more each game and have 1 goal a match less kicked against it. The one goal a quarter needs a change in mindset and a consistency in attack we haven't had for many years. The one goal less a match could be achieved by not having blow outs. So 10 less goals kicked against us by Port Adelaide and Sydney, and 5 goals less kicked on us by Geelong would achieve this.
My expectations for 2018 is for Carlton to do a lot better because I am sick of following a rubbish team.

At the start of the year I thought we would win between 7 + 10 games and would be among the also rans. In previous seasons the ladder has usually broken up into 4 groups, the good sides, the mediocre, the also rans and the poor. Usually with 5 good sides, 5 mediocre, 4-5 also rans and 3-4 poor sides. This year the ladder has broken into 3 distinct groups. 6 good sides, 7 mediocre sides and 5 poor sides. Of the 5 games we played against the other poor sides, we only won one. This is something we need to look at. If we had won 3 of those five, we would have won 8 for the year and the debate about whether the team has improved would be more clear. Carlton needs to kick 1 goal a quarter more each game and have 1 goal a match less kicked against it. The one goal a quarter needs a change in mindset and a consistency in attack we haven't had for many years. The one goal less a match could be achieved by not having blow outs. So 10 less goals kicked against us by Port Adelaide and Sydney, and 5 goals less kicked on us by Geelong would achieve this.
My expectations for 2018 is for Carlton to do a lot better because I am sick of following a rubbish team.

It depends on how you view it.

IMHO I think that there were about 14 contenders, and 4 also rans who were capable of beating anyone or losing heavily most weeks, and the difference was that the gulf between them was so vast rather than truly poor sides. (Gold Coast fit the bill as poor).

I would like to see a statistically significant improvement in disposal skills and efficiency.

Hit some targets by hand and foot and the rest looks after itself, missing targets is the boat anchor that keeps us at the bottom.