Carlton Supporters Club

OK, forget about what-ifs.

Someone has a gun to your head and says put your house on where you think Carlton will finish the home and away season. Not where you WANT them to finish. Not where you HOPE they finish. Where they will actually finish.


Note: Poll will run for 6 days (should finish after the Tigers game) and results should will be hidden until then. That way nobody can be influenced by our game, or other peoples votes.

So....have at it.

If you look at all the things that could go right...(several players exceeding expectations, other sides crippled by injury etc) we could make the eight.

If you have a positive outlook and expect a steady rate of improvement and if you think the list is stronger and more players will improve than go backwards then you would probably be thinking about 9-12.

If you're feeling a bit negative about our situation poor pre-season, lack of forward power and can't really see where we have improved our list...and perhaps are expecting a few players like Weitering and Silvagni to have second year blues you would probably be thinking around 13-15

If you are thinking that everything that could go wrong will go wrong then Bottom 3 is where you'll have us.

If you asked the players where they expected to finish I wonder how many of them would say bottom 3.
I'd be really disappointed if even one of them was thinking bottom 3

If you look at all the things that could go right...(several players exceeding expectations, other sides crippled by injury etc) we could make the eight.

If you have a positive outlook and expect a steady rate of improvement and if you think the list is stronger and more players will improve than go backwards then you would probably be thinking about 9-12.

If you're feeling a bit negative about our situation poor pre-season, lack of forward power and can't really see where we have improved our list...and perhaps are expecting a few players like Weitering and Silvagni to have second year blues you would probably be thinking around 13-15

If you are thinking that everything that could go wrong will go wrong then Bottom 3 is where you'll have us.

If you asked the players where they expected to finish I wonder how many of them would say bottom 3.
I'd be really disappointed if even one of them was thinking bottom 3

Put your house on the line. Out of all of the above scenarios, optimistic, pessimistic or otherwise. What position will most likely result in you keeping your house.

Put your house on the line. Out of all of the above scenarios, optimistic, pessimistic or otherwise. What position will most likely result in you keeping your house.

9 to 12 for the reasons outlined

We will be about the same but we will begin to see the light

We will be about the same but we will begin to see the light

I agree.

13-15.
Despite occasional optimism we are pretty awful. If we snag 6-7 wins things will go as expected.  Getting young players some experience and having them play some glimpses of consistent football is essential.

Fewer wins would be acceptable if it was because of injuries to senior players.

I just can't see us scoring enough to win more than 2 or 3 games

[1] We will not finish last:
I know the pundits rate us poorly and our pre-season has been poor, but I would not be surprised if we shocked a few wins. Our key forwards look ... questionable, but it now looks that we do have some crumbing options.

[2] Injuries are out key:
We have structural issues and a very young and inexperienced list. Key injuries would hurt us a lot. If we lose our experienced players, we will be bottom 3 material.

[3] Each year there is a team that falls:
Last year Freo dropped like a rock. North have thrown away their best players. Someone will fall unexpectedly. It can be us.

[4] Brisbane:
They may lift against us, but they have also lost unlosable games. I don't see them rising this season.

I expect us to remain about the same as last year. We may drop a place (slightly more likely) and gain a place (slightly less likely), but I do not see us as bottom 2 material.

Ok, I voted 9-12 before I read Kruddlers OP.

 I would probably drop down to 13-15 under his premise, although I believe we are capable of too much fluctuation, to be willing to bet too much on any result. A really bad year could see us finish botttom 2. A really good year could see us sneak into the top 8. Reality will probably be somewhere in the middle.

Being an optimist and not only looking for but expecting improvement on last year, I'm looking for more than 7 wins and/or a higher ladder position than 14th, or maybe the best indicator, a better percentage than 79.3.

Interesting that our crap forward line with Casboult on one leg for a number of weeks was able to snag us 7 wins last year.

Where has our forward line deteriorated since last year?
Has the supply to our forward line deteriorated since last year?
Defensively, are we likely to leak more goals than last years?
In the centre square, are our starting four worse than last year? (Cripps looked hampered for most of it, Murphy was injured for the second half, Kruezer has never been fitter)

We didn't fluke too many of those 7, and there were a couple of performances that scared the crap out of a few teams.

9-12

I expect we most likely finish between 13-15, we will be equal or better than we were last year but I am not sure that equates to any more wins. We have to wait and see who slides.

As Buckenara stated, we basically got it right in trade and draft week, so we should not expect to go backwards.

12-15th.

12-15th.

Yes, my expectation as well.

15th-18th...

I just can't see us scoring enough to win more than 2 or 3 games

16-18 for the above reason....... not enough scoring power.

I think the really good thing about this thread is that a lot of folk are going to be pleasantly surprised at the end of the season ;D

I think the really good thing about this thread is that a lot of folk are going to be pleasantly surprised at the end of the season ;D

Too true!  ;D

16th - 18th

Any where between 14-18 , think we will have a poor start , if we can gel in the lsecond half of the season and some of the new lads settle down we might grab a win or 3. Goals win games, and let's face it we just don't have the scoring avenues

Just wondering how many folk's opinions have been changed by the poor performance in the three JLT matches.

I never put a lot of weight on them.... they are just practice games, but they do shed a bit of light on individuals and we've only had a few standout performers which may have been a disappointment for some expecting a higher ladder position.

I agree it is possible to put too much emphasis on what you see in a few meaningless practice matches. I'm going more based on what I saw in the second half of last year (after the new coach honeymoon period finished), plus the list changes we have made compared with list changes and apparent development of the lists of teams that finished around our ladder position last year

Bottom 3, and possibly last, because the focus this year has to be getting games and experience into the next generation as part of their development rather than playing the experienced campaigners each week who might scrape together a few wins to elevate us to around 14-15th.

I'm not advocating just playing the young guys, they need some experience around them and some mature bodies to take the load. But each week we'll have to go in with a line up that has 5 (or more) players under 22 and with less than 30 games experience. That's not a recipe for success in 2017, but its part of the rebuild we need to do as we build for 2020.

I fear somewhere down the bottom. I just hope that we make the most of it and blood a lot of young kids with the right amount experience and support around them. Really hope some of these kids go past guys like Kerridge who are not the future and just keep hacking it up.

Just wondering how many folk's opinions have been changed by the poor performance in the three JLT matches.

I never put a lot of weight on them.... they are just practice games, but they do shed a bit of light on individuals and we've only had a few standout performers which may have been a disappointment for some expecting a higher ladder position.

Mine hasn't. ;)

I reckon a few might have given the amount of backlash i was getting for even suggesting it was possible.

I think the really good thing about this thread is that a lot of folk are going to be pleasantly surprised at the end of the season ;D

Ever the optimist Lods. Even if it means ignoring other possibilities.
Who will be pleasantly surprised if we finish bottom 3 exactly?  :-\

I wasn't too bothered about PS performance as it seems Bolt's uses it for, well practice...
I still think we've some ways to go in building a list of quality players. As such, it's bottom 4 for mine.

 I think our good games that score a W will (hopefully) sustain our passions for the mighty Blues. We're not going to get over the line most of the time. We simply don't have the right mix yet of talent, experience, and cohesion. But we're on the right track - no doubt.

I'll be making the most of our wins and watching closely for all the little wins. Those indicators we've drafted and recruited well.

Go young Blues

Ever the optimist Lods. Even if it means ignoring other possibilities.
Who will be pleasantly surprised if we finish bottom 3 exactly?  :-\

I won't!
I'll be devastated.
As I guess will  anyone who has picked them to finish higher than that.

No-one will be pleasantly surprised at finishing bottom 3 (even yourself Kruds. You've been consistent with your expectations).
Only those that want to be able to say "I told you so" would regard it as pleasant experience and I hope that means no-one!!

I'm not ignoring other possibilities.
It's quite possible we will finish bottom 3, even last, if everything that could go wrong does go wrong.
My point all along is that we can't afford that kind of season because it will destroy the confidence and unity surrounding the rebuild and people will start to have doubts.

It's a rather topsy turvy world where people who are being optimistic about the season are seen as not facing reality.
Villains in fact! :(

Another thing I'm wondering is how the players are feeling regarding the talk of them finishing in a lowly position.
Some of those senior players may be thinking... "at this rate I'm not going to be around when the club finally achieves success again."
It would be hard to go all out knowing that's the line of thinking.
It would have much the same effect as when the club first announced the intention to rebuild.
Hopefully the senior group are  thinking "bugger them, you watch what we can do" and getting that kind of siege mentality working with the youngsters as well.
That's what I'd expect leaders to do!

Lods, Kade Simpson reckons he's hanging around for success :

"But Simpson is backing the club's youth movement to bear fruit sooner rather than later.

"I'm not hanging around here to be dwindling [away] down the bottom," he said.

"I know myself, the leadership group and the coaches are doing everything we can to get this group to where we need to be."

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/no-finish-line-in-sight-for-carltons-kade-simpson-20170211-guapsp.html

Lods, Kade Simpson reckons he's hanging around for success :

"But Simpson is backing the club's youth movement to bear fruit sooner rather than later.

"I'm not hanging around here to be dwindling [away] down the bottom," he said.

"I know myself, the leadership group and the coaches are doing everything we can to get this group to where we need to be."

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/no-finish-line-in-sight-for-carltons-kade-simpson-20170211-guapsp.html

Honestly Paul, what would Simpson know?  He's obviously not bothered to read this thread and a couple of others  ;)

@Paul

Good stuff from Simmo!

Honestly Paul, what would Simpson know?  He's obviously not bothered to read this thread and a couple of others  ;)

lods mentioned that the leaders may have other ideas about our team performance, and I just remember that quote from Simmo.

It's a bit of a "by the numbers" quote, and what you'd expect him to say, but I like Simmo. I reckon he is our "spiritual leader" and I like reading what he has to say, and I like watching him play.

lods mentioned that the leaders may have other ideas about our team performance, and I just remember that quote from Simmo.

It's a bit of a "by the numbers" quote, and what you'd expect him to say, but I like Simmo. I reckon he is our "spiritual leader" and I like reading what he has to say, and I like watching him play.

Paul, for me he is probably our most inspirational current player in the way he approaches the game.

Paul, for me he is probably our most inspirational current player in the way he approaches the game.

Yes, he and Crippa for mine. He will a loss when he hangs up the boots.

I see Sportsbet have us at $7 to make the 8 and Brisbane at $15. I would have thought that if we were certainties for finish last or second last, those odds don't look right, or are they (gambling and betting is not one of my strong suits)? I'd almost have a flutter at that.

Honestly Paul, what would Simpson know?  He's obviously not bothered to read this thread and a couple of others  ;)

Find me a player at any club who would say otherwise.

FYI, here is an a quote from Trigg that he sent out today...

Almost all of our Blues members and supporters will recognise that we’re a younger list again this year. We are continuing to build strong foundations and exposing our youth at an AFL level will bring some inconsistencies at times. That’s the reality of youth. But the other reality is we are developing some real and exciting talent – so we hope that as a member you’ll enjoy seeing that development throughout the season.

How do you interpret that?

To me its a clear message saying its a long road ahead with plenty of youth and thus inconsistency. Enjoy watching the development, as you may not enjoy the scoreboard.

But what would Trigg know.... ;)

Find me a player at any club who would say otherwise.

FYI, here is an a quote from Trigg that he sent out today...
How do you interpret that?

To me its a clear message saying its a long road ahead with plenty of youth and thus inconsistency. Enjoy watching the development, as you may not enjoy the scoreboard.

But what would Trigg know.... ;)

But isn't that the same type of spin you're accusing the player of.... the clear message from Trigg could also be... "We need to buy a bit of time with supporters so we'll lower expectations a bit. We hope we're on the right track but really the only certainties in life are death and taxes."

In all these discussion Kruddler, it's clear you've bought into "What they're cooking!"...and that's fine.
But at the end of the day the long slow rebuild process may yield absolutely zilch.
It's all a guess and hope situation.
Guess the best path and hope for the successful outcome.

Indeed Lods. We have to be on some path, and we've tried several others, with varying degrees of success. So now we're trying the reno path, and we'll know soon enough.

No one can predict the future, and supporters without much success can be a jittery bunch. We could win the next three spoons, then win the next three flags. You can bet that when we're in the midst of those spoons, supporters will be fuming, unable to see the good times around the corner. But that's sport - the agony and the ecstasy.

Wins make people comfortable (somewhat) - sustained winning form makes people comfortable. Losses and losing form has the opposite effects.

We didn't have the internet back then, but I remember well the 2 mid season losses we had in 95. The callers to the radio etc. were predicting the end was nigh. 

But isn't that the same type of spin you're accusing the player of.... the clear message from Trigg could also be... "We need to buy a bit of time with supporters so we'll lower expectations a bit. We hope we're on the right track but really the only certainties in life are death and taxes."

In all these discussion Kruddler, it's clear you've bought into "What they're cooking!"...and that's fine.
But at the end of the day the long slow rebuild process may yield absolutely zilch.
It's all a guess and hope situation.
Guess the best path and hope for the successful outcome.

I don't know if i've bought into anything they are selling Lods. It just so happens that i've come to the same conclusions as them. We need to rebuild and that takes time. There are no shortcuts and if we end the rebuild part way through, we are in a worse position than had we have stuck it out.

No guarantees that what we are doing will work. However, there is a clear guarantee that what we have done in the past hasn't. So what have we got to lose?

As for Trigg vs Simpson.
I challenge you to find a more 'negative' approach to a forthcoming season from a club. Trigg knows its going to be a long year and is trying to push the 'look at our kids - isn't it encouraging?' route. Rather than a 'we'll be pushing for finals' comments.
Simpson only knows one way and if he had doubts about the upcoming season, then that probably means every other player on our list has doubts too. I expect Bolton to give belief to the players, even when staring defeat in the eyes. If he cannot do that, then he isn't the right man for the job.

The major challenge that BB, the other coaches and the leadership group face is that of avoiding a "loser culture" being established even though we may well be facing probably losing a significant number of games this year. Like winning, losing becomes a habit if you are not careful.

Carefully chosen, achievable targets will need to be set for the team, aside from winning x number of games, in order that the players genuinely feel that progress is being made and that they are headed in the right direction. This will require great skill and insight. No doubt it will be a tough year and not one for the faint hearted.

"We don't really have a real focus on anything external, we've got a real clear understanding of where we are as a club," Bolton said.

"We've taken probably the most dramatic reset in the club's history, we've turned over around 28 players. We think what comes with that is excitement because we get to see our youngsters grow and develop over the next few years to set up some sustainable success for us in future.

"We know where we're at and we're really excited about what we're doing as a footy club."

After focusing on pressure last year, Bolton was keen to build depth in the playing list in 2017 and also employ aggressive ball movement.

"We've still got a lot of work to do in that area, we're a work in progress but we're not going to shy away from trying things," he said.

"We want to have a look at how our youngsters grow and perform and give them opportunity and we're also looking for consistency – they're the main things with our footy figures."

Carlton are the underdogs in next week's season opener against Richmond but Bolton was confident of causing an upset.

"They [Richmond] have had some good form over the pre-season, they've recruited well with [Dion] Prestia, [Josh] Caddy and [Toby] Nankervis but we'll come out firing and take it up to them and see how we go," he said.

Isn't it refreshing to have a coach who, while not giving too much away, is prepared to be honest about where we're at and what his priorities are?

Like Bolton, I'm confident that we can cause an upset against Richmond.  If we do, there will be a chorus of "Richmond/Hardwick are no good but!"

The major challenge that BB, the other coaches and the leadership group face is that of avoiding a "loser culture" being established even though we may well be facing probably losing a significant number of games this year. Like winning, losing becomes a habit if you are not careful.

Carefully chosen, achievable targets will need to be set for the team, aside from winning x number of games, in order that the players genuinely feel that progress is being made and that they are headed in the right direction. This will require great skill and insight. No doubt it will be a tough year and not one for the faint hearted.

See Bolton's comments Cookie, particularly "We want to have a look at how our youngsters grow and perform and give them opportunity and we're also looking for consistency – they're the main things with our footy figures."

Wouldn't it be great if those "footy figures" were provided to supporters!

It's not a direct quote from Bolton, but one phrase in that reply #39 really caught my eye - "aggressive ball movement."

If true, I can't wait.

See Bolton's comments Cookie, particularly "We want to have a look at how our youngsters grow and perform and give them opportunity and we're also looking for consistency – they're the main things with our footy figures."

Wouldn't it be great if those "footy figures" were provided to supporters!

It would indeed be interesting.  ;)

Anyway, at least the players are aware of them and what is expected of them. I'm really looking forward to Thurs and to see where we're at, with our intensity esp.

It would indeed be interesting.  ;)

Anyway, at least the players are aware of them and what is expected of them. I'm really looking forward to Thurs and to see where we're at, with our intensity esp.

Ditto.  :)

Mods, is it worth giving consideration to merging this thread and the "What are your expectations" thread" ? They started off with a different emphasis,  but they seem to be converging.

Mods, is it worth giving consideration to merging this thread and the "What are your expectations" thread" ? They started off with a different emphasis,  but they seem to be converging.

You can't merge them, it will delete the poll.

You can't merge them, it will delete the poll.

Ok.

Mods, is it worth giving consideration to merging this thread and the "What are your expectations" thread" ? They started off with a different emphasis,  but they seem to be converging.

They will diverge again  :)

They will diverge again  :)

I'll fix it:

"Its bloody Micks fault." ;D

I'll fix it:

"Its bloody Micks fault." ;D

Yes, it probably is  :))

Yes, it probably is  :))

Finally you concede the truth! :D

After reading that (especially the bold bit), its clear we will finish 1st!!

Last time someone said something similar ("I cant see us losing a game"), this site went into meltdown!!

In all seriosness, I'm glad he has given that imbecile Lloyd a back hander, well doe Judge.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/carlton/mark-loguidice-defends-carltons-list-strategy-labels-matthew-lloyd-uninformed/news-story/e12db747d8cd085fac6dead688242d17

Mark LoGuidice defends Carlton’s list strategy, labels Matthew Lloyd ‘uninformed’
JAY CLARK, Herald Sun
March 19, 2017 8:00pm
Subscriber only
CARLTON president Mark LoGiudice has defended the club’s list strategy in the wake of scathing criticism from former Essendon champion Matthew Lloyd.

In Saturday’s Herald Sun, Lloyd suggested the club’s list strategy under Stephen Silvagni was “half-baked” because they had recruited too many players from other clubs “who just aren’t good enough”.

As many as five Carlton players could make their debuts for the club in the blockbuster season-opener against Richmond on Thursday night, including Billie Smedts (Geelong), Rhys Palmer (GWS), Jarrod Pickett (GWS), Alex Silvagni (Fremantle) and strong midfielder Zac Fisher (pick No.27).

LoGiudice hit back at Lloyd, saying the Blues’ list build was on the right track.

“He (Lloyd) has got a view and I think it is an uninformed view, but that is OK,” LoGiudice told the Herald Sun.

“We’ve got a strategy, we’ve got a plan and we are sticking to it.”

Carlton won seven games last season but has become the third-youngest squad in the AFL this year, after another round of aggressive list changes.

The Blues bolstered their recruiting team over summer, enlisting former Greater Western Sydney talent scout Paul Brodie as national recruiting manager, after serving a 13-month ban for betting.

Silvagni has already warned fans the Blues may face a “rocky road” this season and is no guarantee to notch as many victories as last year.

But LoGiudice said Carlton fans would be encouraged by the young players’ effort and development.

“I think they will see a young side that is going to give it everything,” he said.

“They’re going to go out to win every single game and that is what you will see.

“There is no doubt those young players will be tested at times, and it will be challenging, but it will also be very, very exciting.”

But LoGiudice said Carlton fans would be encouraged by the young players’ effort and development.

“I think they will see a young side that is going to give it everything,” he said.

If I see this from qtr to qtr, week in, week out, I will be 1 very happy fella!!

Silvagni has already warned fans the Blues may face a “rocky road” this season and is no guarantee to notch as many victories as last year.

I agree with SOS but when you are hunting for members early on in the season I wouldnt have been so direct and sold a bit more hope....media like Matthew Lloyd are already all over the list, predicting failure and laying blame at the feet of SOS for his GWS recruiting theme .
Its like we have given it away for the year and are just waiting for the trade and draft period again....I'm a realist and accept our position but I think we have to sell the rebuild better and not allow numpties like Lloyd a free hit....

Lloyd is obviously squaring up after being pantsed by SOS once too often. 

The point he makes about whether we are going for a full reno or just alts and adds is the also the point members like mateinone have been making.

Lloyd is obviously squaring up after being pantsed by SOS once too often. 

The point he makes about whether we are going for a full reno or just alts and adds is the also the point members like mateinone have been making.

Almost 30 list changes in two seasons isn't a slight adjustment.

The only way you could harder than that is with GWS style concessions, and we won't be getting any of that from the AFL!

Lloyd is obviously squaring up after being pantsed by SOS once too often. 

Bingo!!

Silvagni has already warned fans the Blues may face a “rocky road” this season and is no guarantee to notch as many victories as last year.

I agree with SOS but when you are hunting for members early on in the season I wouldnt have been so direct and sold a bit more hope....media like Matthew Lloyd are already all over the list, predicting failure and laying blame at the feet of SOS for his GWS recruiting theme .
Its like we have given it away for the year and are just waiting for the trade and draft period again....I'm a realist and accept our position but I think we have to sell the rebuild better and not allow numpties like Lloyd a free hit....

Spot on elwood. It does seem like we are waiting for Nov/Dec again/already for the trade and draft periods.

Hoping our kids surprise this year!

Almost 30 list changes in two seasons isn't a slight adjustment.

The only way you could harder than that is with GWS style concessions, and we won't be getting any of that from the AFL!

I think the point MIO was making (and Lloyd is implying) is that we really needed to trade out older stars with value, to bring in as many high draft picks as possible, to reset from ground zero with a list full (or as full as possible) with young elite talent.

Lloyd is obviously squaring up after being pantsed by SOS once too often. 

The point he makes about whether we are going for a full reno or just alts and adds is the also the point members like mateinone have been making.

Lloyd can be a good analyst of the game at times but when it comes to CFC his hatred always gets the better of him.

Lloyd can be a good analyst of the game at times but when it comes to CFC his hatred always gets the better of him.

Yes, I quite enjoy his work with Damian Barrett on Access All Areas.

I think the point MIO was making (and Lloyd is implying) is that we really needed to trade out older stars with value, to bring in as many high draft picks as possible, to reset from ground zero with a list full (or as full as possible) with young elite talent.

Hendo, Yaz, 2E and to some extent Menzel were traded to achieve this were they not?

Hendo, Yaz, 2E and to some extent Menzel were traded to achieve this were they not?

Yes, but people like MIO were thinking to cut very deep, and trade out Krooz, Murph, Gibbs etc.

3 1/2 days out from R1 and still no Carl Vs Rich thread?  ???

Done a lot of reading about pre season time to get into the real stuff.

3 1/2 days out from R1 and still no Carl Vs Rich thread?  ???

Done a lot of reading about pre season time to get into the real stuff.

Feel free to start one. ;)

Any member can start a thread, in fact we'd encourage everyone  to start one up on a topic of their choice....(maybe not a  Malthouse/ Ratten one. We've got enough of those.)

Feel free to start one. ;)

Any member can start a thread, in fact we'd encourage everyone  to start one up on a topic of their choice....(maybe not a  Malthouse/ Ratten one. We've got enough of those.)

You can never have too many of those.

But I have taken a vow of silence of the topic of ex coaches, so all's well.

I haven't a problem with Lloyd. We seem to want these media guys to hop off the fence and give some sort of criticism/analysis.

There are plenty that don't, plenty around draft time that are so overrated it ins't funny. They sit on the fence.

Time now for the Club, moreso the players, to prove Lloyd wrong. Simple.

Hopefully that article has been cut out, photocopied, and put around the Club, so the players can dig in and show some good ol' G&D. And get the job done!

Lloyd's article didn't make me angry. It's fair game, we are open to this with our past history and decisions, and even recent ones. Time will tell and we'll see how it all pans out. I trust in SOS, Bolts and co. We'll see if they got it right.

What I can say is, that I think SOS, Bolts and co need another draft/trade period or two, plus the in-season and pre-season's with that. It'll take time. Thought the Swans and some other clubs have made huge inroads into their lists that had immediate impact the following season. We need more smart and cunning list management decisions. We need our kids to play plenty of games in 2017 too!

I think it's fair to say many of our players, many recruited ones, have something to prove.

Think - Kerridge, Thomas, Phillips, Plowman, Jones, Jaksch, Sumner, Pickett, Marchbank, Smedts, Palmer, etc. Wright had an excellent first season. We need more of that! Marchbank and Pickett I think will be something quite special. Phillips goes well for a young ruck. Plowman handy and needs another bunch of games on end, Sumner too. Most have had injury issues to contend with. But, that's the line SOS and co went down.

Then there are guys like - Buckley, Boekhorst and Graham. Over to you boys! MASSIVE year for these blokes.

Big money for guys like Murphy and Gibbs - hoping they have HUGE years along with Cripps and the like. We need injury free years from these sorts of blokes, and let them play together each week and see how they go.

I think if we get to the end of the 2017 season, and our kids have played little to no AFL footy, we are in BIG trouble!

I think if we get to the end of the 2017 season, and our kids have played little to no AFL footy, we are in BIG trouble!

We'll be in just as much trouble if we prematurely cook the young talent that we've got.

See my thoughts reply in the other similar thread (http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=3351.msg187011#msg187011), and why following the recommendations of Lloyd can be throwing the youth to the wolves.

We'll be in just as much trouble if we prematurely cook the young talent that we've got.

See my thoughts reply in the other similar thread (http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=3351.msg187011#msg187011), and why following the recommendations of Lloyd can be throwing the youth to the wolves.

Ofcourse we will. It's a balancing act. Having said that, we must expose these kids kids like last year. That worked quite well. We didn't rush Harry McKay in and 'cook' him. They did a pretty good job last year with the young blokes IMO. More of the same. Another 10+ games into:

Weitering
C.Curnow
J.Silvagni
Cuningham
McKay
SPS
Marchbank
Pickett
Plowman
Sumner
Byrne (when ready)
Sheehan (25 yo, not a kid, but would love to see games on end from him)
Phillips (25 yo, but when ready, play him)

Also, some games for most, or all of - Fisher, Lebois, Polson, Williamson, Macreadie, Kerr. I've got no problem playing some kids if they are physically sound. Pick the game(s) and opponent.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how lots of these kids go at VFL too. Would love to see some standout performances, particularly from Harry McKay!

The kids need to be assessed individually and with care. Some will be ready before others. There may be some teams (weaker, less agro teams), against which we can field more youngsters than others.

The kids need to be assessed individually and with care. Some will be ready before others. There may be some teams (weaker, less agro teams), against which we can field more youngsters than others.

But that is my point PaulP, controlled exposure means a handful of cherry-picked games. Many supporters will translate that, with the help of the media, as those youth not being good enough.

On where we will finish, I implore supporters to try taking another perspective of our list management.  Too many people make an analogy of our team towards a list full of GWS and other rejects. But consider this, the recruiting by SOS is more like that of the early GC team, but from a starting position with far more AFL ready seasoned players than GC hand on hand.

So I expect equal or better than 2016, it's not unreasonable when judging from this other perspective. We've lost little influential talent in the 2016 off-season, but according to Buckenara gain plenty! From my amateur assessment, our list depth has improved significantly in most areas except the ruck.

Hopefully the club can communicate our strategy in a clear and unambiguous way, so as to avoid or minimize those neurotic reactions. 

Hopefully the club can communicate our strategy in a clear and unambiguous way, so as to avoid or minimize those neurotic reactions.

Isn't that sort of reaction exactly what Lloyd's article was meant to encourage, do supporters really think he was trying to assist?

Isn't that sort of reaction exactly what Lloyd's article was meant to encourage, do supporters really think he was trying to assist?

Speaking for me personally, I'm well versed in reacting neurotically at even the slightest provocation. I don't need Lloyd's help.

Maybe Lloyd could critically analyse the "vitamins" program at his former club and butt the %)% out of ours.

But that is my point PaulP, controlled exposure means a handful of cherry-picked games. Many supporters will translate that, with the help of the media, as those youth not being good enough.

On where we will finish, I implore supporters to try taking another perspective of our list management.  Too many people make an analogy of our team towards a list full of GWS and other rejects. But consider this, the recruiting by SOS is more like that of the early GC team, but from a starting position with far more AFL ready seasoned players than GC hand on hand.

So I expect equal or better than 2016, it's not unreasonable when judging from this other perspective. We've lost little influential talent in the 2016 off-season, but according to Buckenara gain plenty! From my amateur assessment, our list depth has improved significantly in most areas except the ruck.

Solids assessment. I do agree with plenty fo this. I am glass half-full too, and reckon we can do some damage this year. We, like all other clubs, need a healthy list and with our good players available each week.

It wont be pretty this year.

I want to see development though.

Silvagni has already warned fans the Blues may face a “rocky road” this season and is no guarantee to notch as many victories as last year.

I agree with SOS but when you are hunting for members early on in the season I wouldnt have been so direct and sold a bit more hope....media like Matthew Lloyd are already all over the list, predicting failure and laying blame at the feet of SOS for his GWS recruiting theme .
Its like we have given it away for the year and are just waiting for the trade and draft period again....I'm a realist and accept our position but I think we have to sell the rebuild better and not allow numpties like Lloyd a free hit....

The thing is, the club is not wrong to be eyeing the next trade period already and to a degree, putting the thing away until that happens.  They have done what they can for this season, and now its time to see the results of previous years work.

Its a cultural and mentality shift, that our footy club requires to get everyone pulling in the right direction.

i.e.  What happens on the field is simply a measure of how the players and football department perform over this season.  The work they put in, will translate to their position on the ladder, and finals football (if any) is a reward for the efforts put in across the season.

Once the season is done, its done.

I don't see why we will change strategy overly from what we have been doing which means that no one's future is set in stone, but we are already looking at where we need to add youth, and where we need to recruit some mature agers to gap fill holes in our team.  All that changes is which names go at the end of the season.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/18912776/footy-forensics-introduces-advanced-afl-elo-based-ladder-prediction-rankings-statistics (http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/18912776/footy-forensics-introduces-advanced-afl-elo-based-ladder-prediction-rankings-statistics)

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/18912776/footy-forensics-introduces-advanced-afl-elo-based-ladder-prediction-rankings-statistics (http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/18912776/footy-forensics-introduces-advanced-afl-elo-based-ladder-prediction-rankings-statistics)

Shows you how hard our list will be to peg down, not just for us supporters but for the opposition as well.

The thing I like most is the comparison;
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2017/0316/r191077_1296x729_16-9.png)
The UBET rating shows you just how forked CheatsFC supporters really are!

Note statistically 50% of teams in the bottom 4 change each year!
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2017/0316/r191078_1296x729_16-9.png)

It wont be pretty this year.

I want to see development though.

Agree

15th-18th

Hopefully we don't do anything stupid and sack the Coach if we finish bottom 2.

We wont sack him (yet)...but I bet we wont love him as much if that's where we finish.

3 out of 4 commentators On the Couch Tonight had us finishing with the spoon. I think we will likely finish bottom 2.

While I am an eternal optimist, I think this year the true horror of our drafting over the period 2010-2014 will really hit us between the eyes.

In 12/13/14 we made 29 selections [ex rookie upgrades from previous years] of which Cripps & Doc are stars, the 2 irish boys show promise. The next best is Boekherst!!!

Guys like Everett, Jones, KJ, Tutt, Smith and Foster were recruited to help build a forward line - all gone. Even if we had a 30% hit rate we would 8 solid AFL players with 50 odd games coming into their prime. Instead we have less than half that, and no forward line players whom can kick goals from those 3 drafts. So we have a huge hole in our list that we are now trying fill with players who have mostly played less than 20 games.

Thats why my expectations are very low this year - we are coming from miles back.

3 out of 4 commentators On the Couch Tonight had us finishing with the spoon. I think we will likely finish bottom 2.

While I am an eternal optimist, I think this year the true horror of our drafting over the period 2010-2014 will really hit us between the eyes.

In 12/13/14 we made 29 selections [ex rookie upgrades from previous years] of which Cripps & Doc are stars, the 2 irish boys show promise. The next best is Boekherst!!!

Guys like Everett, Jones, KJ, Tutt, Smith and Foster were recruited to help build a forward line - all gone. Even if we had a 30% hit rate we would 8 solid AFL players with 50 odd games coming into their prime. Instead we have less than half that, and no forward line players whom can kick goals from those 3 drafts. So we have a huge hole in our list that we are now trying fill with players who have mostly played less than 20 games.

Thats why my expectations are very low this year - we are coming from miles back.

As they did last year, and no-one anticipated our 2015 spoon!

If you check out the poll at the top of this thread, you will see an uncanny parallel between the views of our members, and those of the journos. Most in both groups have us near the bottom, with a few thinking we can do better. Whether one group is influencing the other, or whether they both influence each other, I know not.

If you check out the poll at the top of this thread, you will see an uncanny parallel between the views of our members, and those of the journos. Most in both groups have us near the bottom, with a few thinking we can do better. Whether one group is influencing the other, or whether they both influence each other, I know not.

The media are professional, they haven't missed the polls that sites like this one run. They in the business of giving the public what they want, except for The Hun and issues relating to CheatsFC.

It's logical
The club are actively pushing a "no great expectations, we'll give it a go, but the main positive in 2017 will be watching the kids develop" line.

When the commentators (and supporters) look at that they think "OK that's Carlton out of it. But we can probably expect improvement out of everyone else that finished below them except perhaps Brisbane...and no-one is going to drop far enough that Carlton will overtake them."
17th or 18th!

But ladder positions aren't decided in March ;)

More than a couple on this site foresaw the poor 2015 before the season started.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that BB, SOS and co. have been at this rebuild one year!! Take the WB's for example, McCartney started all the good work from 2012 to 2014. Beveridge finished it off so to speak in 2016 (a year or two ahead of schedule IMO). So five years in and they hit the jackpot. I am confident the path is set and BB/SOS will not deviate or be swayed, especially by the likes of media muppets such as Lloyd. Smug prick thinks he is so smart, if he was any good, he'd be in a coaching role somewhere. Instead, he chooses to sit in a chair and take pot shots at people a lot more capable and a lot smarter than he is.

We wont sack him (yet)...but I bet we wont love him as much if that's where we finish.

Our club MUST go through this process where this occurs, and questions are asked of the coach.

Its bound to happen where we stick to our process in spite of everyone telling us how poorly he is doing and that he is sacked, and only then will I have confidence in our club that we know what we are doing.

Its about time this happens where we know what we are doing despite what everyone has to say about it.

Until it occurs (and Im hoping it will be this year when we are not expecting much) expect not a lot.

We were bottom 5 last year - could have won a couple more and could have lost a couple we won.

The only way that I can see of doing a where do you think we will finish is by doing a blind tipping comp now.  This way you can set rules and stick to them (eg Freo is going to win every home game except one of the derbys) (be interesting to know how the media types do it)

When this is done, you get the ladder and you can justify why you think Carlton finish where they do - if we go backwards (eg bottom two), who is going past us.  If we finish say, 11th, who do we overtake.

Having said that, I hope that endeavour is there for the whole year.  If it is, there is enough good experience and skilled youngsters to helps us win a few, and a bit of confidence can do a lot.  While I think we'll finish bottom four, it would be great to be better than last year, with another win or two and finish bottom 8.

To put it simply, i was shocked that so many people have agreed with me about this year being a long one.

Many vocal posters argued black and blue that i was being negative. Seems that perhaps they were being overly positive.


Question to the 11 people who voted 9-12.
Have you changed your mind after last nights effort?

To put it simply, i was shocked that so many people have agreed with me about this year being a long one.

Many vocal posters argued black and blue that i was being negative. Seems that perhaps they were being overly positive.


Question to the 11 people who voted 9-12.
Have you changed your mind after last nights effort?

Nope
Ask me again after Round five or six ;)

To put it simply, i was shocked that so many people have agreed with me about this year being a long one.

Many vocal posters argued black and blue that i was being negative. Seems that perhaps they were being overly positive.


Question to the 11 people who voted 9-12.
Have you changed your mind after last nights effort?

No (I think I voted 9-12  ???)

To put it simply, i was shocked that so many people have agreed with me about this year being a long one.

Many vocal posters argued black and blue that i was being negative. Seems that perhaps they were being overly positive.


Question to the 11 people who voted 9-12.
Have you changed your mind after last nights effort?

Other way around, you agree with them.

Other way around, you agree with them.

When i first floated the idea many moons ago, i was han solo. Everybody was against me.

Then since the first ball was kicked in anger, it seems many people jumped ship very quickly and started speaking from the same hymn book as me.

Now it seems that people can't jump off quick enough.

I'm happy that the 9-12 group are sticking to their guns. I actually wished more people who thought we'd 'go ok' didn't stand by that, and instead are being all doom and gloom.

You can't write a season off after one game.
Life's too short...and I'm running out of seasons :(

When i first floated the idea many moons ago, i was han solo. Everybody was against me.

Then since the first ball was kicked in anger, it seems many people jumped ship very quickly and started speaking from the same hymn book as me.

Now it seems that people can't jump off quick enough.

I'm happy that the 9-12 group are sticking to their guns. I actually wished more people who thought we'd 'go ok' didn't stand by that, and instead are being all doom and gloom.

Na, you weren't alone.

I was in agreement which is why I was thinking that in spite of a big loss last night was encouraging.

A good side would have well and truly belted us.

Na, you weren't alone.

I was in agreement which is why I was thinking that in spite of a big loss last night was encouraging.

A good side would have well and truly belted us.

x2..Plenty of folk think/thought we will finish well down the ladder and I agree we would have been smashed badly if we had played a really good team.

Here's my thinking...There's actually two components to it.

Firstly.....

Our 2017 list is an improvement on our 2016 list...(anyone think differently?).
The only way we go backwards in terms of ladder position/ games won is....

1)Teams below us improve at a greater rate (possible)
2) We get hit by a dreadful injury run (also possible)

My estimate of (9-12) of is a gamble that neither of these two things will happen.

Now the second component... and this is probably more important.

I think a lower finish will do a great deal of damage to our rebuild and confidence.
In short...we can't afford to drop off.

You've seen the first evidence of it already after just a few practice games and a first round loss.
Media were pretty strongly behind Bolton when he was first appointed...now we're getting a few backhanders....watch the buggers stick the knives in if it goes completely pear shaped.

Some supporters have already written the season off.
List management, team selections, skill levels and match day coaching are all coming under scrutiny...the criticisms aren't real strong at the moment but fast forward to say round 5, and if our  scoreline reads 0-5 that criticism will have grown.

I know what's trying to be achieved so I'll hit round 22 still on board with the rebuild whatever the result..as will all those preaching patience.


My concern though is that with a bottom 3 finish we can probably hold our "we're on board" meetings in a much smaller venue.

Here's my thinking...There's actually two components to it.

Firstly.....

Our 2017 list is an improvement on our 2016 list...(anyone think differently?).
The only way we go backwards in terms of ladder position/ games won is....

1)Teams below us improve at a greater rate (possible)
2) We get hit by a dreadful injury run (also possible)

My estimate of (9-12) of is a gamble that neither of these two things will happen.

There is also a twist on option 1, that is a 1.1 if you will.
We are not as lucky as we were last year.
We won a few games (Geelong) in which a couple of things change and the result is different. We won that game by 19 points. But they had 1 more scoring shot.
A bounce here, a gust of wind there and all of a sudden different result.

Now back to the original premise. Our 2017 list is an improvement on 2016.

Define improvement.

Walker, Jamison, Tuohy were all best 22 at the start of the year. All gone, 2 through injury essentially. 472 games experience walks out the door.
What kind of experience did we get back? Palmer?? Not in best 22 at this stage.

Long term improvement, sure, more talent added.
Immediate improvement, not so sure about that.

Luck is a variable...our luck may turn out to be better this year.
We don't know that yet

Walker and Jamison gave us very little last year for all their experience
Tuohy is a loss but the addition of Marchbank into the backline has allowed Weitering to move forward so that kind of negates that loss.

Definitely a better list.

Luck is a variable...our luck may turn out to be better this year.
We don't know that yet

Walker and Jamison gave us very little last year for all their experience
Tuohy is a loss but the addition of Marchbank into the backline has allowed Weitering to move forward so that kind of negates that loss.

Definitely a better list.

Better list for 2017......or 2019?

Its easy to say its a better list now because our next Lucas, Watson, DVR, Smith....hasn't outed themselves yet

I'm judging it just on the best team we can put on the field in 2017....compared to the best team we could put on the field in 2016

Do you think the 2016 side was better Kruds?

Better list for 2017......or 2019?

Its easy to say its a better list now because our next Lucas, Watson, DVR, Smith....hasn't outed themselves yet

How true - it's too early to say whether the list is better. It's easy to say at this stage that last years and this years draftees will mean we have a better list in another 2 years time, but we just don't know.

When you look at the list the problem is that the 12/13/14 drafting and trading is a train wreck, and we therefore have very few guys with 40-60 games experience who a solid AFL footballers. Doc and Crippa are it really. We have a massive hole in the middle of the list, and you can't lose experience like Tuohy, Jamo, Walks and Hendo and replace them with kids and hope to get the same results in the short term. You are likely to go backwards.

In a perfect world 4-5 of Boek, Whiley, Tutt, Jones, KJ, Gorringe, DVR, Menzel, Temay, Graham, Giles, Holman, Everitt, Smith, Dick, Foster would have developed into solid players who contributed strongly week to week - even that would be a 33% strike rate. Instead we got almost nothing out of that cohort, so we now have to keep playing White, Casboult, Armfield and Daisy because we have nothing better. And we have to keep blooding a high proportion of players with under 25 games experience and pray we find some diamonds in that group.

I'm judging it just on the best team we can put on the field in 2017....compared to the best team we could put on the field in 2016

Do you think the 2016 side was better Kruds?

Its simply too early to tell.

You discount Walker/Jamison from that because they had minimal impact.
Who do you discount from this season for the same reason?

Maybe simpson succumbs to his age sooner rather than later.

You dont know

I said I'd let folk know if I'd changed my mind about our finishing position after round 5 or 6.
I picked 9th to 12th
Yep
I've changed my mind.
We're not interested in winning at the moment. :(
I hope they know what they're doing.

I said I'd let folk know if I'd changed my mind about our finishing position after round 5 or 6.
I picked 9th to 12th
Yep
I've changed my mind.
We're not interested in winning at the moment. :(
I hope they know what they're doing.

I'm sticking with bottom 4 like I said initially...2-3 wins max.....

I said I'd let folk know if I'd changed my mind about our finishing position after round 5 or 6.
I picked 9th to 12th
Yep
I've changed my mind.
We're not interested in winning at the moment. :(
I hope they know what they're doing.

I'm not so sure that we are not interested in winning. I think they know we will very much struggle to win games...which will cause dramas. So a bit of misdirection, and added benefit of sorts, is to play the kids. Keep the wolves at bay a bit.

I said I'd let folk know if I'd changed my mind about our finishing position after round 5 or 6.
I picked 9th to 12th
Yep
I've changed my mind.
We're not interested in winning at the moment. :(
I hope they know what they're doing.

Me too Lods.

My prediction now is bottom two.

I said I'd let folk know if I'd changed my mind about our finishing position after round 5 or 6.
I picked 9th to 12th
Yep
I've changed my mind.
We're not interested in winning at the moment. :(
I hope they know what they're doing.

You think they are tanking Lods?

I don't think the primary goal is to tank but to give as many young guys as much exposure to senior footy as possible. This is the agreed agenda right across the club from the board down. Of course if we also happen to get some good draft picks out of it too then all well and good. I am now going to just try to watch the rest of the season with some academic detachment and hopefully see our youth develop.

Darcy Fogarty welcome to the Blues  8)

190cm mid/forward who is an early leader in this year draft for top five pick.

kicked 10 goals for glenelg last week and six goals yesterday.

He is what you call an attacking midfielder - similar to Fyfe as he is super overhead but smashes the scoreboard like no mid I have had the pleasure to read on.

Will see him run out for Adelaide in under 18 state champs.

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000166568888-ub5epu-t500x500.jpg)

You know, I woke up this morning (da da dah da daaaah), and there were a number of highly fancied teams located below us on the ladder.....  I'm still confident that no matter what 2017 brings we win our next flag before a stack of other clubs.

The last thing we need is a year in which we win enough games to qualify for picks outside the top couple as we need to keep building.  Stay the course Carlton or hand the keys back and turn the lights off.

You think they are tanking Lods?

I think they're doing a controlled list management program that will provide a large number of young players the opportunity to experience senior football a bit before they normally would. ;) ;D

I think they're doing a controlled list management program that will provide a large number of young players to experience senior football a bit before they normally would. ;) ;D

You'd make a great politician Lods!! ;)

You'd make a great politician Lods!! ;)

No he wouldnt. To my knowledge, Lods is not a Bullcrapting, thieving, self serving prick.

No he wouldnt. To my knowledge, Lods is not a Bullcrapting, thieving, self serving prick.

In th words of Meatloaf (when he could sing) :D

"Two out of three ain't bad" ;D

In th words of Meatloaf (when he could sing) :D

"Two out of three ain't bad" ;D

;D ;D ;D

We'll probably finish bottom two, rusted on supporters like people on this board will keep buttering up but some others will drop off, and we won't be attracting very many new supporters or members that's for sure and certain.
The danger is that a long and painful rebuild will badly affect our long term viability with no guarantee of success, the one bright spot is that if we beat Collingwood in a fortnight they'll self destruct.

We'll probably finish bottom two, rusted on supporters like people on this board will keep buttering up but some others will drop off, and we won't be attracting very many new supporters or members that's for sure and certain.
The danger is that a long and painful rebuild will badly affect our long term viability with no guarantee of success, the one bright spot is that if we beat Collingwood in a fortnight they'll self destruct.

The Collingwood game will probably be the first I attend this year, if we beat them there will probably be a public lynching of Buckley. Funny thing is I actually respect Bucks but you live and die by your performances, and he himself placed the noose over his head if they don't make finals. Great game this AFL!!

The Collingwood game will probably be the first I attend this year, if we beat them there will probably be a public lynching of Buckley. Funny thing is I actually respect Bucks but you live and die by your performances, and he himself placed the noose over his head if they don't make finals. Great game this AFL!!

I have no idea whether he's good or crap at coaching (I've always liked him), but he can be too honest by half. 

How true - it's too early to say whether the list is better. It's easy to say at this stage that last years and this years draftees will mean we have a better list in another 2 years time, but we just don't know.

When you look at the list the problem is that the 12/13/14 drafting and trading is a train wreck, and we therefore have very few guys with 40-60 games experience who a solid AFL footballers. Doc and Crippa are it really. We have a massive hole in the middle of the list, and you can't lose experience like Tuohy, Jamo, Walks and Hendo and replace them with kids and hope to get the same results in the short term. You are likely to go backwards.

In a perfect world 4-5 of Boek, Whiley, Tutt, Jones, KJ, Gorringe, DVR, Menzel, Temay, Graham, Giles, Holman, Everitt, Smith, Dick, Foster would have developed into solid players who contributed strongly week to week - even that would be a 33% strike rate. Instead we got almost nothing out of that cohort, so we now have to keep playing White, Casboult, Armfield and Daisy because we have nothing better. And we have to keep blooding a high proportion of players with under 25 games experience and pray we find some diamonds in that group.

Indeed. Errors were the rule. Successful drafting the exception. Add in the shinanagins of the board et al. And you write off almost a decade of development.

Next chapter is now in draft form (no pun intended ^-^). We all share the hope that our club get it right this time. My faith is steadfast and I back the youngsters in.

My Edit. I still have us bottom 4. We'll have a patch here and there where our ducks align and the opposition are off. Mostly though, we have 23 chances to work through our list decisions come year's end. We have opportunities to play the youngsters together. To build the bonds that will become the foundation of our future success.

but surely the problem is in the development of players, once on the list, not the drafting?

No doubt fb.
A very complex set of factors. Not only drafting, but some of it starts there.

I have no idea whether he's good or crap at coaching (I've always liked him), but he can be too honest by half.

Thing is, if Bucks fails, then Eddie should be right in the spotlight with him as this was the succession plan he orchestrated.

I was hopeful of finishing somewhere from 10th-14th.

If we keep playing the kids as often as we have been in the 1st 5 rounds I reckon we will end up bottom 4.

I really really don't want to win another wooden spoon....

Last .

Thing is, if Bucks fails, then Eddie should be right in the spotlight with him as this was the succession plan he orchestrated.

You would think so, but he's pretty powerful, and I can't see him relinquishing that power too easily. Whether the rest of the club believes he has to go, and whether they have the balls and power to push him out is another matter.

As a way of avoiding a whole lot of media nonsense, and a way of avoiding the typically ugly exits senior coaches make, I like the idea of a succession plan. Maybe at the Pies, the individuals involved are the problem ? Paul Roos has made it work at two different clubs.

That's because roos had had enough of being the senior coach and wanted to hand over the reigns.

You force a succession plan on anyone and they won't like it.

It's effectively training your replacement to do your job most likely before you believe your time is up.

At Collingwood it made no sense to pull that reign at that time.  First flag won, finals series looming, minor premiership in reach and a fairly good chance at the flag again.   They should have postponed it a couple of years.

Appointing a club stalwart as coach almost always ends in tears, in recent times it has for Voss, Ratten and Hird and it no doubt will for Buckley, you can count on one hand the times that it's worked over the last 30 years.
When the time comes it's always postponed too long and then when the trigger is pulled it's like shooting Bambi, and divides supporters and members.
It's just not a good idea.

Appointing a club stalwart as coach almost always ends in tears, in recent times it has for Voss, Ratten and Hird and it no doubt will for Buckley, you can count on one hand the times that it's worked over the last 30 years.
When the time comes it's always postponed too long and then when the trigger is pulled it's like shooting Bambi, and divides supporters and members.
It's just not a good idea.

Why do you think that is ?

That's because roos had had enough of being the senior coach and wanted to hand over the reigns.

You force a succession plan on anyone and they won't like it.

It's effectively training your replacement to do your job most likely before you believe your time is up.

At Collingwood it made no sense to pull that reign at that time.  First flag won, finals series looming, minor premiership in reach and a fairly good chance at the flag again.   They should have postponed it a couple of years.

All coaches are employees of a football club. It's not up to them to decide when it's time to go. MM's best was behind him. The Pies could see it, and so could all the other clubs that were looking for a senior coach in that time, except of course for the lazy, soft option, quick fix kings.

Supporters will tolerate any amount of failure if they support the regime - compare the 2012 and 2013 W/L and %. Same W/L in both seasons, but 2012 has a better %. Yet 2012 was such a disaster that the coach had to go, bu 2013 gets a pass mark. What a load of farking crap.

Probably because the selection process is biased and the candidate selected has spent too long in one environment and is too close to the playing group.

Looking at how Collingwood dismantled a premiership outfit including many young players shows that it's a terrible idea.

They have geared their list at being good within the next couple of years to save Buckley his job rather than challenge for a flag.
Insanity given what the Giants look like.

All coaches are employees of a football club. It's not up to them to decide when it's time to go. MM's best was behind him. The Pies could see it, and so could all the other clubs that were looking for a senior coach in that time, except of course for the lazy, soft option, quick fix kings.

Supporters will tolerate any amount of failure if they support the regime - compare the 2012 and 2013 W/L and %. Same W/L in both seasons, but 2012 has a better %. Yet 2012 was such a disaster that the coach had to go, bu 2013 gets a pass mark. What a load of farking crap.

You say that to anyone in any job and they will tell you to stick it, and walk out leaving you with all their intellectual property.

Football clubs are a bit different but it's still not a good idea, in any profession.

Had he not come to our football club, this point would not be lost on you.  But you're too busy being anti mick Malthouse to appreciate what I'm actually saying here.

Probably because the selection process is biased and the candidate selected has spent too long in one environment and is too close to the playing group.

Looking at how Collingwood dismantled a premiership outfit including many young players shows that it's a terrible idea.

They have geared their list at being good within the next couple of years to save Buckley his job rather than challenge for a flag.
Insanity given what the Giants look like.

You say that to anyone in any job and they will tell you to stick it, and walk out leaving you with all their intellectual property.

Football clubs are a bit different but it's still not a good idea, in any profession.

Had he not come to our football club, this point would not be lost on you.  But you're too busy being anti mick Malthouse to appreciate what I'm actually saying here.

I'm too busy looking at poor results, demoralized supporters, poor media performances, dodgy trades, and a few other things besides. His record was very good, but all players and coaches get to a point where their heart's not in it, and where they just can't or won't do what's required. Why is it that in the 12 months he was out of the game, that no other club showed any interest ? Why is it that we were the only ones ? Why is it when we moved him on, once again no other club showed any interest ? Why is it that when he threw his hat in the ring for the Crows job, they ignored him ?

The rest of the AFL world is telling you something, and you ought to pay attention.

All coaches are employees of a football club. It's not up to them to decide when it's time to go. MM's best was behind him. The Pies could see it, and so could all the other clubs that were looking for a senior coach in that time, except of course for the lazy, soft option, quick fix kings.

Malthouse coached Collingwood to a flag and runner up in the two years prior to his sacking, it defies logic to say that his best was behind him 12 months later.
I'm not implying that Malthouse was the right appointment for Carlton at the time any more than Ratten was before him, but blaming Malthouse for our current plight is missing the point in my opinion.
No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?

No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?

So we fail because of the club and not primarily because of the coaches, is that your point? If so, I tend to agree, but I think MM was an exception.

I think the primary problem has been our player development, along with some lingering impacts from the AFL TPP Penalties, which left us as an undesirable destination for players. For a long time we didn't develop players, we had a harvesting attitude and that hindered our player development. Players no longer want to play for Carlton.

As far as I know, we remain the only AFL Club under full time AFL audit. Maybe that tells you something about why experienced AFL players and managers choose to move players to other clubs! No opportunity, or less opportunity, to bend the rules at Carlton than elsewhere!

Also, I am not sure the NBs relationship is helping us all that much! It seems to me the Victorian AFL clubs which are most successful are the clubs which effectively have autonomy over standalone VFL teams.

Malthouse coached Collingwood to a flag and runner up in the two years prior to his sacking, it defies logic to say that his best was behind him 12 months later.
I'm not implying that Malthouse was the right appointment for Carlton at the time any more than Ratten was before him, but blaming Malthouse for our current plight is missing the point in my opinion.
No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?

It doesn't defy logic at all. Whatever love McGuire has for Bucks, the Pies know Malthouse better than anyone - the succession plan was several years in the making. There was plenty of time for everyone to know exactly what was going on, and to have plenty of time to prepare themselves. Is it better to go out on a high, or is it better for a team to crash and burn before someone realizes a change needs to occur ?

Where exactly have I blamed any one individual over our current malaise ?

Pagan, MM and Ratts are not dud coaches. Our problems run a lot deeper than just one person - that doesn't mean that coaches should be treated equally, and it doesn't mean coaches should be let off the hook, simply because an AFL club is a complex organization, with plenty of other blame candidates. Surely by now we have enough mechanisms, processes etc in place to be able to judge whether a particular individual is doing a good job or not ?

Malthouse coached Collingwood to a flag and runner up in the two years prior to his sacking, it defies logic to say that his best was behind him 12 months later.
I'm not implying that Malthouse was the right appointment for Carlton at the time any more than Ratten was before him, but blaming Malthouse for our current plight is missing the point in my opinion.
No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?

Time passes you by pretty quickly in the coaching caper as the game quickly evolves. Both Pagan and Malthouse kept going previous old methods that the opposition quickly worked out. The same plan doesn't work for more than a couple of years. Pagan was still controlling interchanges at the end meaning we were going at 30 a game while the opposition were going at 80-100+. The issue you have with old coaches. Clarko, by contrast. evolved and continued to change his game plan. Ratten did coach to our strengths hence had success, even if that was downhill skiing, which we did need to sort admittedly to take the next step, but hey, we were winning. He never had a super list so he did well to get us to 3 finals series.

Nobody knows the mix of responsibility that was in place at Collingwood prior to MMs departure.

What we do know is that MM wanted an autocracy at Carlton, as a club we were stupid we gave it to him! The days when one bloke can call all the shots at AFL level are long gone!

This was Ratten's downfall, and it was MMs downfall.

Clarko, by contrast. evolved and continued to change his game plan.

Even Clarkson's gloss is wearing off, he's lost the guidance of a lot of strong individuals and it appears he's running off the rails. His fate will be very interesting in the coming months and years, the likes of Dunstall and Brereton influence a powerful coterie that is very unforgiving!

At the moment I think Clarkson's old school ways sit quite nicely with the Dunstalls and Breretons of this world, but I am not sure the next generations of recruits will be so easily dominated.

How much of Clarkson's superb player development came form the Tassie teachers, Bolton and Fagan? Perhaps Clarkson's lasting legacy will be that he identified Tassie as an underutilised AFL resource!

Even Clarkson's gloss is wearing off, he's lost the guidance of a lot of strong individuals and it appears he's running off the rails. His fate will be very interesting in the coming months and years, the likes of Dunstall and Brereton influence a powerful coterie that is very unforgiving!

At the moment I think Clarkson's old school ways sit quite nicely with the Dunstalls and Breretons of this world, but I am not sure the next generations of recruits will be so easily dominated.

Clarko did evolve with each of his flags as he knew you couldn't sit still. Inevitably his guns were going to grow old and there was going to be a down period but he's quite capable of evolving again. Sheedy re-invented himself for 27 years.

Think it was the other way around. I'm thinking Bolton and Fagan might have picked up much about player development from Clarko.

Sheedy re-invented himself for 27 years.

Not the complete story, Sheedy used his heavy influence over the CheatsFC dominated AFL Board to have rules changed to suit his list!

Not the complete story, Sheedy used his heavy influence over the CheatsFC dominated AFL Board to have rules changed to suit his list!

At 27 years of coaching you've shown the ability to re-invent yourself many times.

So we fail because of the club and not primarily because of the coaches, is that your point? If so, I tend to agree, but I think MM was an exception

I think we've failed primarily due to our woeful recruiting.
Someone pointed out on here the other day that the three years from 2012 to 2014 have been an almost complete bust recruiting wise apart from Cripps and one other whose name escapes me.
If this was isolated then it wouldn't be as critical but it's part of a long history stretching back decades, no club can be competitive under those circumstances.
I don't buy the player development line by the way, a large number of our recruiting busts have been established players.
It's a hangover from the Elliott days of "we don't rebuild at Carlton", we just never came to terms with the draft and we've paid a very heavy price.

I think we've failed primarily due to our woeful recruiting.
Someone pointed out on here the other day that the three years from 2012 to 2014 have been an almost complete bust recruiting wise apart from Cripps and one other whose name escapes me.
If this was isolated then it wouldn't be as critical but it's part of a long history stretching back decades, no club can be competitive under those circumstances.
I don't buy the player development line by the way, a large number of our recruiting busts have been established players.
It's a hangover from the Elliott days of "we don't rebuild at Carlton", we just never came to terms with the draft and we've paid a very heavy price.

While I agree our draft and trade result is poor, it might not be as accidental as we believe!

It depends whether you think that result was accidental or deliberate. For a long time now, at least 4 or 5 years, I have heard rumors Carlton is positioning itself for when full unrestricted free agency arrives. It has even been rumored to be the reason why so many players, 27 I think, are currently under contracts that expire at the end of this season! Let's see what the CBA brings.

I think we've failed primarily due to our woeful recruiting.
Someone pointed out on here the other day that the three years from 2012 to 2014 have been an almost complete bust recruiting wise apart from Cripps and one other whose name escapes me.
If this was isolated then it wouldn't be as critical but it's part of a long history stretching back decades, no club can be competitive under those circumstances.
I don't buy the player development line by the way, a large number of our recruiting busts have been established players.
It's a hangover from the Elliott days of "we don't rebuild at Carlton", we just never came to terms with the draft and we've paid a very heavy price.

I think it's recruiting, development, culture, bad appointments, the board..................

Time passes you by pretty quickly in the coaching caper as the game quickly evolves. Both Pagan and Malthouse kept going previous old methods that the opposition quickly worked out. The same plan doesn't work for more than a couple of years. Pagan was still controlling interchanges at the end meaning we were going at 30 a game while the opposition were going at 80-100+. The issue you have with old coaches. Clarko, by contrast. evolved and continued to change his game plan. Ratten did coach to our strengths hence had success, even if that was downhill skiing, which we did need to sort admittedly to take the next step, but hey, we were winning. He never had a super list so he did well to get us to 3 finals series.

The only period when we were generally moving in the right direction was 08-12.

I think it's recruiting, development, culture, bad appointments, the board..................

"In summing up, it’s the constitution, it’s Mabo, it’s justice, it’s law, it’s the vibe and aah no that’s it, it’s the vibe. I rest my case"
BY DENIS DENUTO  "As seen on TV" - The Castle·

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwbTpsmsJvcLmO04jx4quHLaV7Bkj6Td7zP3pFMaZOHttjzys)

"In summing up, it’s the constitution, it’s Mabo, it’s justice, it’s law, it’s the vibe and aah no that’s it, it’s the vibe. I rest my case"
BY DENIS DENUTO  "As seen on TV" - The Castle·

Indeed.

I think it's recruiting, development, culture, bad appointments, the board..................

The vibe?  ;)

Edit: Didn't see the post from Gointocarlton, great minds think alike.

The only period when we were generally moving in the right direction was 08-12.

There's a bit of Ratten bias there methinks.
Have a close look at our drafting over that period

There's a bit of Ratten bias there methinks.
Have a close look at our drafting over that period

The upward trend was in ladder position, W/L etc. The recruiting was as blah as ever.

The upward trend was in ladder position, W/L etc. The recruiting was as blah as ever.

Pagan won 9 games or something in 2004, in hindsight it was miraculous.
With three number one picks, Judd, Walker, Stevens, Betts, Waite and a few others Ratts was bound to win a few games but it was never going to be sustainable without good recruiting.

Pagan won 9 games or something in 2004, in hindsight it was miraculous.
With three number one picks, Judd, Walker, Stevens, Betts, Waite and a few others Ratts was bound to win a few games but it was never going to be sustainable without good recruiting.

If recruiting is the problem, then why sack the coach ? And that applies equally and fairly whether it's Pagan, Ratts, MM or anyone else.

If recruiting is the problem, then why sack the coach ? And that applies equally and fairly whether it's Pagan, Ratts, MM or anyone else.

Because the members, sponsors and supporters demand it, and the board needs to look as though it's doing something to ensure its own survival.

Because the members, sponsors and supporters demand it, and the board needs to look as though it's doing something to ensure its own survival.

Sorry, I should've been clearer - my question was essentially rhetorical. I know exactly why it happens (not forgetting the media influence). But it's a deplorable state of affairs that invisible men (and a few gals) with deep pockets, many of whom know jack-sh1t about football, should be allowed to get away with it. And our club seems to fall into this trap more than most.

And our club seems to fall into this trap more than most.

It's an old club, full of old men and their old ways!

But I'm confident it's changing which is why I changed my message signature.

But like a misbehaving high performance car, I can still detect the odd misfire as it accelerates, and I see the old-time mechanic standing on the sidelines with a hammer ready to lightly tap the carburetor or the distributor, even though it's a fuel injected beast with all electronic ignition!

It's an old club, full of old men and their old ways!

But I'm confident it's changing which is why I changed my message signature.

But like a misbehaving high performance car, I can still detect the odd misfire as it accelerates, and I see the old-time mechanic standing on the sidelines with a hammer ready to lightly tap the carburetor or the distributor, even though it's a fuel injected beast with all electronic ignition!

Hmm, notwithstanding your analogy, I hope the change is in full effect.

Sorry, I should've been clearer - my question was essentially rhetorical. I know exactly why it happens (not forgetting the media influence). But it's a deplorable state of affairs that invisible men (and a few gals) with deep pockets, many of whom know jack-sh1t about football, should be allowed to get away with it. And our club seems to fall into this trap more than most.

Our club was run as a rich man's fiefdom for many years until Elliott brought it to the brink of destruction from which we've never fully recovered.
Even the Judd trade was a poor long term football decision but his value in attracting members and sponsors outweighed football cosiderations due to our precarious financial position at the time.
Carlton has been about as badly managed as it's possible for a club to be and we're now in a state of decline, it will take a mighty effort to turn the ship around. 

Our club was run as a rich man's fiefdom for many years until Elliott brought it to the brink of destruction from which we've never fully recovered.
Even the Judd trade was a poor long term football decision but his value in attracting members and sponsors outweighed football cosiderations due to our precarious financial position at the time.
Carlton has been about as badly managed as it's possible for a club to be and we're now in a state of decline, it will take a mighty effort to turn the ship around.

Agree with all, except I was and am a fan of the Judd trade.

Agree with all, except I was and am a fan of the Judd trade.

I'd do the Judd trade again tomorrow! ;)

What I'd be looking to do very differently was the players around him. In particular I'd find extras / others like Carrazzo and McLean who could do the heavy lifting inside work and leave Judd on the fast-break-away with Murphy. For example, I think Gibbs could have gone inside mid a long time ago, while Judd was still in his prime.

I'd do the Judd trade again tomorrow! ;)

What I'd be looking to do very differently was the players around him. In particular I'd find extras / others like Carrazzo and McLean who could do the heavy lifting inside work and leave Judd on the fast-break-away with Murphy. For example, I think Gibbs could have gone inside mid a long time ago, while Judd was still in his prime.

Same. You can't pass up a once-in-a-generation player when they say they want to come to our club.

The theory re Gibbs as I have read, is that our backline was so bad at kicking that Scotto, Yazz and and Gibbs had to be played there to get any kind of rebound happening. Don't know if it's true. 

Agree with all, except I was and am a fan of the Judd trade.

Given that we were virtually bankrupt at the time we probably didn't have much choice, Judd paid his wages many times over with new sponsors and members.
Not only that, he also set standards and gave the club credibility, but in pure football terms it was a poor trade.

Same. You can't pass up a once-in-a-generation player when they say they want to come to our club.

The theory re Gibbs as I have read, is that our backline was so bad at kicking that Scotto, Yazz and and Gibbs had to be played there to get any kind of rebound happening. Don't know if it's true.

Personally, I wouldn't give a rats ar5e about the HBFs! I'd put any old blokes like Treacle, Molasses and Corn Syrup in the midfield as long as they could get the stoppage ball out to the likes Judd, Scotland, Murphy, Garlett, Betts, Armfield or Yarran I don't care!

The sad thing is, I think Ratten was the best midfield coach we've had since the Parkin / Briton days. But he never really got the rest of the field sorted as he probably needed it. We won stoppage after stoppage, not just as a result of Judd because we won them without Judd playing. I suppose in hindsight we know there were many issues around Fev, Yarran, O'hAilpin, Cloke, Garlett, Robinson, etc., etc and a bit of club politics as well.

Personally, I wouldn't give a rats ar5e about the HBFs! I'd put any old blokes like Treacle, Molasses and Corn Syrup in the midfield as long as they could get the stoppage ball out to the likes Judd, Scotland, Murphy, Garlett, Betts, Armfield or Yarran I don't care!

The sad thing is, I think Ratten was the best midfield coach we've had since the Parkin / Briton days. But he never really got the rest of the field sorted as he probably needed it. We won stoppage after stoppage, not just as a result of Judd because we won them without Judd playing. I suppose in hindsight we know there were many issues around Fev, Yarran, O'hAilpin, Cloke, Garlett, Robinson, etc., etc and a bit of club politics as well.

If you compare points F/A in 09 (Fev's last year) and 10,11, you will see that there was a dip in 10 compared to 09, as the coaches tried to figure out a new forward structure. Then in 2011, you see they sorted it out and we had more points for and less against than 09 and 10. A forward line that at various times consisted of the 3 amigos, Waite, Hendo, Setanta, Thornton. Not exactly the stuff of dreams.

At any rate, back on topic. I voted 13th-15th, and I thought that was being pessimistic. Now, I'm not so sure.

If you compare points F/A in 09 (Fev's last year) and 10,11, you will see that there was a dip in 10 compared to 09, as the coaches tried to figure out a new forward structure. Then in 2011, you see they sorted it out and we had more points for and less against than 09 and 10. A forward line that at various times consisted of the 3 amigos, Waite, Hendo, Setanta, Thornton. Not exactly the stuff of dreams.

Yeah, I get that. What I think is we haven't scored enough from the midfield and we left our better options buried in the traffic. It's worth pondering when you think an extra 1 or 2 goal average per game is equal to 3 or 4 spots higher on the ladder.

Yeah, I get that. What I think is we haven't scored enough from the midfield and we left our better options buried in the traffic. It's worth pondering when you think an extra 1 or 2 goal average per game is equal to 3 or 4 spots higher on the ladder.

Agree. There is a saying in business which is analogous (to me at least), "BD is everyone's responsibility in an organisation", goal scoring being analogous to BD, the team to the organisation. Sounds simple but if everyone doesnt buy in...

I'm too busy looking at poor results, demoralized supporters, poor media performances, dodgy trades, and a few other things besides. His record was very good, but all players and coaches get to a point where their heart's not in it, and where they just can't or won't do what's required. Why is it that in the 12 months he was out of the game, that no other club showed any interest ? Why is it that we were the only ones ? Why is it when we moved him on, once again no other club showed any interest ? Why is it that when he threw his hat in the ring for the Crows job, they ignored him ?

The rest of the AFL world is telling you something, and you ought to pay attention.

This isn't about Malthouse.

I'm saying that no employee of any organisation would enjoy a succession plan forced upon them.

What part of that point is lost on you??

I couldn't care if it was Malthouse or any other afl coach.  It was a daft idea to begin with, and we are yet to see a player turn assistant turn senior coach all in one club and enjoy any decent success.

Even Ratten went to Melbourne before coming to us.

This isn't about Malthouse.

I'm saying that no employee of any organisation would enjoy a succession plan forced upon them.

What part of that point is lost on you??

I couldn't care if it was Malthouse or any other afl coach.  It was a daft idea to begin with, and we are yet to see a player turn assistant turn senior coach all in one club and enjoy any decent success.

Even Ratten went to Melbourne before coming to us.

Whether they like it or not is not relevant. I think conceptually a succession plan is a great idea. Otherwise what else is there ? The usual media circus, mounting pressure, loss after loss, then the coach gets sacked. You think that's better ? The fact that Bucks so far has stunk it up does not invalidate the original idea. The idea is good - the choice of replacement, perhaps less so.

Whether they like it or not is not relevant. I think conceptually a succession plan is a great idea. Otherwise what else is there ? The usual media circus, mounting pressure, loss after loss, then the coach gets sacked. You think that's better ? The fact that Bucks so far has stunk it up does not invalidate the original idea. The idea is good - the choice of replacement, perhaps less so.

Not a forced succession plan.

It worked with roos,  because roos had had enough, and didn't want the job anymore.

As for the selection process,  like a normal job interview you canvass the candidates available and hire accordingly.
Not thrust the chosen one into the hot seat and then oust the previous one.

You know how we selected Bolton.  

Not a forced succession plan.

It worked with roos,  because roos had had enough, and didn't want the job anymore.

As for the selection process,  like a normal job interview you canvass the candidates available and hire accordingly.
Not thrust the chosen one into the hot seat and then oust the previous one.

You know how we selected Bolton.

It worked for Roos because he negotiated a great salary doing a quarter of the work.
As soon as that pay was renegotiated off he went

Given that we were virtually bankrupt at the time we probably didn't have much choice, Judd paid his wages many times over with new sponsors and members.
Not only that, he also set standards and gave the club credibility, but in pure football terms it was a poor trade.

Good summary, I agree.

Appointing a club stalwart as coach almost always ends in tears, in recent times it has for Voss, Ratten and Hird and it no doubt will for Buckley, you can count on one hand the times that it's worked over the last 30 years.
When the time comes it's always postponed too long and then when the trigger is pulled it's like shooting Bambi, and divides supporters and members.
It's just not a good idea.

Are these stalwartish enough for you ?

- J Kennedy Sr.
- Parkin at Hawthorn
- Robert Walls
- Jock McHale (long ago I know)

There are plenty of coaches who get sacked who never played a single game for the club.

The question was asked early on whether anyone had changed their mind.

I originally picked 9-12 but jumped off after the Port game when it appeared to me that "winning" wasn't even on the agenda.
Once you jump off, you're off, so I'll have to wear that.

Question for the 16-18 group though....Anyone want to change their mind?

start of year i said bottom 4 ,i hope i am wrong but as long we dont finish last we should be happy with the way team is progressing .

6-8 wins wherever that takes us.

Pre-season I thought we'd be bottom 2. Re-evaluated a few weeks ago and thought maybe around 13-14th. But now that a few of those bottom sides have perked up, I'm back to thinking bottom 4, but I don't think we're necessarily a 'bottom 4' team. I think this is a very even comp this year, and as long as we're competitive, we'll win a few and I don't think it's going to matter as much where we finish.

Question for the 16-18 group though....Anyone want to change their mind?

I went for 16-18 due to our lack of scoring power and not expecting the Hawks and Swans to nose dive like they have.... Our scoring power is still a concern but I'm thinking we can get 6 ish  wins so whereever that gets us ...  13th - 15th ?

I voted 13-15. Happy to stick with that.

For a variety of reasons I think 16-18 is still likely, but happy with anything above that.

If our current good run with injuries keeps up we can get 8-10 wins I think. If we lose a couple of key guys in the midfield we could have a second half to the season like we had last year. We have no depth.

10th would be about as good as we'll get. 15th worst I think.

A big factor will be our stamina and thus our ability to run out the season. Looking ok so far but I thought we did tire a bit last week.

Yep tired bigtime. Depth is our big issue.

As it is for many teams - tiges = zero depth. Cannot cover even 2 or 3 injuries out of their best team.

I think older guys like Buckley, Boekhorst Lamb, Sumner, Kerridge, Palmer, Jones and Smedts will finish off the season

I havent included Jaksch because he is only 22

I think older guys like Buckley, Boekhorst Lamb, Sumner, Kerridge, Palmer, Jones and Smedts will finish off the season

I havent included Jaksch because he is only 22

i thought sumner was good last season. what happened?

I think it is worth noting that we have had an unbelievably good run with injuries to this point. The only real injured player is a bloke who did his knee last year!

Still, only with 3 wins thus far a couple of good efforts makes me think we haven't quite cashed in as much as we'd like.
I can't help but think the karma bus will hit us hard in the second half of the year.

Should our luck with injuries continue, highly unlikely, then i think we should finish in the 12-15 range.