Carlton Supporters Club

No disrespect to Murphy but a change in the next year or two is probably best for the club

We've had a few threads about this over the last few years but it now seems to be a race in two.

I'm still a Docherty man but Cripps could also be a good option.
Whichever way we go we've probably got a good combination (Captain/ VC) for many years :D

I think there's a pretty strong chance we'll see a new capt next year. I'm not sure who it will be yet but Cripps certainly put his hand up yesterday!

The people's choice will be Cripps, Docherty will have to be able to give us what Cripps did yesterday or the comparisons will start, the average punter in the street will see Cripps as the clubs best player and real on field leader and boofhead commentators like Jonathan Brown will talk about setting the example every week and in that regard Cripps is going to win because he is a more physical game changing player.....

Yet some were critical of Cripps as stand in captain last week.
He'll no doubt get a run of games now with Murphy's injury so he has a chance to stake a claim ;)

It looks to be a pretty close contest. Both Cripps and Doc are VC's and you would think it would be unusual for them to be gazumped by someone else.

My personal preference is to have the captain behind the play, able to watch the game unfold, on the HB line, like Harley, Hodge and Maxwell. My gut feeling is that Doc probably has a better footy brain than Cripps, but that's guesswork more than anything.

Given Bolton's time spent with Hodge, given his defence first mantra, my inclination is that he may prefer Doc over Cripps.

It looks to be a pretty close contest. Both Cripps and Doc are VC's and you would think it would be unusual for them to be gazumped by someone else.

My personal preference is to have the captain behind the play, able to watch the game unfold, on the HB line, like Harley, Hodge and Maxwell. My gut feeling is that Doc probably has a better footy brain than Cripps, but that's guesswork more than anything.

Given Bolton's time spent with Hodge, given his defence first mantra, my inclination is that he may prefer Doc over Cripps.

Fair logic Paul and I reckon Boltons preference will be Docherty too  but the majority of supporters will want the clubs pin up player Cripps..

If the change of captain were to occur for the 2019 season I'd think they would go for Cripps. Why? Because he is showing leadership qualities now. We cannot be certain that Doc will be at his best so soon after his injury.

If the change of captain were to occur for the 2020 season I'd think they might prefer Docherty. Why? He will be well over his injury issues by them (so I pray) and will have a total pre-season behind him. As mentioned elsewhere, our coaching staff appear to come from defence and Doc would be the leader from there.

I am not convinced that there will be a change of leader, but I would not be surprised: Murphy has grown into the job better than I expected, but he is quite injury prone. I would also be happy if our recruiting had produced a midfield set-up that did not require Murphy all of the time. He would be quite dangerous as a small forward, as he has shown the ability to snap some nice goals in the past.
Of course, that requires our midfield to have enough quality in it NOT to be dependent on Murphy's presence for 60 - 80 % of the game.  Am I dreaming? I don't think I am. I would like to have an elite midfield; we require one for a tilt at the flag. Ours in still a work in progress, with some promise. If we could snaffle a top mid as a free agent or whatever, .... :)

When Murphy is ready to go, it should be Docherty by a mile!

From what I have heard, if not for injury, Rowe would have been part of the leadership group. I reckon if he has a good remainder of 2018 you might see entering the leadership group to replace ACoS or SpecialK.

Cripps won't survive long at the top if his only response to captaincy is to turn himself into a human battering ram, he needs some physical support and I'm not sure Kennedy is the right type. In much the same way the Dogs didn't make Bontempelli their captain, we need to be careful about how we managed Cripps through his career! Cripps already plays with an intensity that may be detrimental to his well-being.

I realise Docherty is only a year older, but he's a much more polished footballer, he looks like he can play football and deal with the responsibility of captaincy.

Captaincy like revenge is a dish best served brutally cold, Cripps has quite a bit of emotion in his game and that can result in leadership mistakes!

Cripps seems like the logical choice atm
He is setting an example for others to follow, which is a massive start.
Exactly what Murphy doesn't do. He cannot exert a physical influence on the game, and like it or not, other players do follow that.
It's easy to call Johnathon Brown a buffoon, but the reality is, he played under one of the toughest captains to play the game, in one of the best sides ever.
He has seen first hand the influence such a leader can have.

We need a change of direction. We need to get more physical. We need to challenge our playing group to become tougher.

That said, why would you not have joint captains?
They could compliment each other well.

We had an example setting captain in Judd and it didn't help us much.

No point setting an example that others cannot follow, the best leaders bring the team with them in a cold and calculating manner. Players like Hodge and Matthews are great examples, but people forget they we not all brutality and fisticuffs, they were actually very good footballers and let their football do the talking early in their careers.

Cripps while playing OK was very chaotic over the last two weeks, he's being sucked in quite a bit by the opposition, it looks like he is trying to initiate trouble and it costs himself and the team. It's no accident he seems to miss out on those obvious frees, umpires are only human and if you make yourself look like a trouble maker they'll judge you accordingly. So for me at the moment Cripps being the captain is detrimental to his performance, I'd love to see him play with that intensity without the responsibility of captaincy. It would be interesting to see what he can do with a genuine chop-out available.

I'm sure the club will keep piling the load on his shoulders to see when he breaks!

Yet some were critical of Cripps as stand in captain last week.
He'll no doubt get a run of games now with Murphy's injury so he has a chance to stake a claim ;)

Yes, I thought Cripps was underwhelming last week but it was a last minute call up.  He was certainly ready to go on Saturday.

I’m not convinced that either of Cripps and Docherty should be our next captain but I don’t see how they show leadership at training, in meetings or around the club and playing group generally.  Judging leadership skills on the basis of an on field performance is fraught.  Cripps certainly played a “captain’s game” against Wet Toast but I’d expect that level of effort from all of our players in every game.

While Cripps can “stake a claim” on the field, Docherty is doing the same through his role with the coaching panel.  However, I suspect that the club’s focus on leadership will mean that the best leader will be the skipper in 2019 and beyond.

Cripps had a quiet game last week but so has everyone Ben Jacobs has tagged this year including Tom Mitchell yesterday.

The whole team will improve as it develops and learns what is expected of each and every one of them every time they take to the field. The captain's role will become more attuned to that as time goes on so it will hopefully become one of leading a team of seasoned ruthless professionals rather than trying to inspire a bunch of developing kids. Whoever develops into that mould best will probably get the gig.

When Murphy is ready to go, it should be Docherty by a mile!

From what I have heard, if not for injury, Rowe would have been part of the leadership group. I reckon if he has a good remainder of 2018 you might see entering the leadership group to replace ACoS or SpecialK.

Cripps won't survive long at the top if his only response to captaincy is to turn himself into a human battering ram, he needs some physical support and I'm not sure Kennedy is the right type. In much the same way the Dogs didn't make Bontempelli their captain, we need to be careful about how we managed Cripps through his career! Cripps already plays with an intensity that may be detrimental to his well-being.

I realise Docherty is only a year older, but he's a much more polished footballer, he looks like he can play football and deal with the responsibility of captaincy.

Captaincy like revenge is a dish best served brutally cold, Cripps has quite a bit of emotion in his game and that can result in leadership mistakes!

I see docherty more in the Murphy mould, neat player and articulate but perhaps not as natural a Leader as Cripps. Cripps exhibits an extreme determination to win and yes he can be careless with his body but I don’t see that as a reason to not appoint him captain.

Either way it’s a good problem to have - one we haven’t had in quite some time!

Cripps seems like the logical choice atm
He is setting an example for others to follow, which is a massive start.
Exactly what Murphy doesn't do. He cannot exert a physical influence on the game, and like it or not, other players do follow that.
It's easy to call Johnathon Brown a buffoon, but the reality is, he played under one of the toughest captains to play the game, in one of the best sides ever.
He has seen first hand the influence such a leader can have.

We need a change of direction. We need to get more physical. We need to challenge our playing group to become tougher.

That said, why would you not have joint captains?
They could compliment each other well.

Sensible and spot on.

There are many types of leadership, but in a gladiatorial sport, a bull at the contest inspires. Whether we like it or not, this is a very emotional game (just look at some of our posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Great leaders inspire and harness that emotion. You can also see that Crippa is very vocal, good. But, like you I'm not too sure that joint skippers isn't a bad idea. In fact, a leader at stoppages/around the ground and a general down back sounds good to me - especially Crippa and the Doc.

On the subject of a bull at the contest, just look how Rowe straightened up our defence with his vigour...

It's interesting looking back on a previous thread on this topic.
Basically the names of potential candidates have stayed the same....except for one :(

http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=3243.0

On the subject of a bull at the contest, just look how Rowe straightened up our defence with his vigour...

True, Jones looked 1000% better, Weitering would have benefited as well if he'd played.

Back on Cripps, a lot of comparisons to the likes of Brown, and I've made comparisons to Hodge as a physical leader. But both those players had serious and physically imposing counterparts besides them early in their careers, Cripps has nobody at the moment. Would Hodge have been the same without someone like Vandenberg's sacrificing his own game, and Johnathon Brown had blokes like Voss, Scott, Scott, Johnston, Leppitsch. Does Cripps have enough "backup" to be that type of player / leader?

In terms of aggression, after Cripps I reckon our next is Daisy probably followed by Plowman and Lamb! We just don't have many of that type!

Cripps has Marc Murphy.

Cripps has Marc Murphy.

Cripps also had Judd when he first started, that kind of helped.

I've always been firmly in the Docherty camp, I think he'd be an excellent captain. But after the weekends performance of Cripps, and given Doc is out for the season, I reckon Crippa will get the nod. I think we need a Captain that doesn't get smashed by the media and supporters alike after every game, so I think Cripps is the man. But honestly, I don't think we can lose out with either. Whoever isn't the captain will no doubt be the Vice Captain for the next 7 years. We have some good leaders coming through which is excellent to see. Would have been interesting to see how it would have played out if Doc hadn't got injured though.

I reckon it's a 99.99% certainty that Murphy doesn't captain next year.

I've always been firmly in the Docherty camp, I think he'd be an excellent captain. But after the weekends performance of Cripps, and given Doc is out for the season, I reckon Crippa will get the nod. I think we need a Captain that doesn't get smashed by the media and supporters alike after every game, so I think Cripps is the man. But honestly, I don't think we can lose out with either. Whoever isn't the captain will no doubt be the Vice Captain for the next 7 years. We have some good leaders coming through which is excellent to see. Would have been interesting to see how it would have played out if Doc hadn't got injured though.

I reckon it's a 99.99% certainty that Murphy doesn't captain next year.

Yes, the new era will really get under way next year. We are still in preparation mode atm.

It's interesting looking back on a previous thread on this topic.
Basically the names of potential candidates have stayed the same....except for one :(

http://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=3243.0

By the time those kids are 24 or 25 Cripps and Docherty will be 29 and it's time to restart this debate.

It'll be kids like Weitering or Williamson who are then thrust into the leadership spotlight.

A lot of posters want Murphy replaced, but the fact he's stuck with the club through and through when others have bailed tells us something about him, and in my  opinion he deserves more respect than many offer him!

But having said that an interesting thing Lods. A suburban club I was connected to quite a few years back had a coach and MC that put a maximum limit on captaincy terms of 3 years, it worked really well for about a decade and got them a few flags towards the end of their decade long tenure. It looked like the rule had built a club with sustainable depth, a team all on the same level with leaders everywhere, four past and current captains playing together.

It all came unstuck when the son of the new president was made captain and the MC threw out the rule, just five years after that they languished on the bottom of the ladder with a few of their better players pirated away to become leaders at other clubs! :o

The successful decade clearly demonstrated a case where the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts! Not sure that can work at AFL, too many mangers, too many lobbyists, too much ego, too much money! You probably need a far greater socialist vibe than most AFL clubs contain!

 No one was saying Cripps would be a great captain after the North game... :D just sayin'

By the time those kids are 24 or 25 Cripps and Docherty will be 29 and it's time to restart this debate.

It'll be kids like Weitering or Williamson who are then thrust into the leadership spotlight.

A lot of posters want Murphy replaced, but the fact he's stuck with the club through and through when others have bailed tells us something about him, and in my  opinion he deserves more respect than many offer him!

But having said that an interesting thing Lods. A suburban club I was connected to quite a few years back had a coach and MC that put a maximum limit on captaincy terms of 3 years, it worked really well for about a decade and got them a few flags towards the end of their decade long tenure. It looked like the rule had built a club with sustainable depth, a team all on the same level with leaders everywhere, four past and current captains playing together.

It all came unstuck when the son of the new president was made captain and the MC threw out the rule, just five years after that they languished on the bottom of the ladder with a few of their better players pirated away to become leaders at other clubs! :o

The successful decade clearly demonstrated a case where the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts! Not sure that can work at AFL, too many mangers, too many lobbyists, too much ego, too much money! You probably need a far greater socialist vibe than most AFL clubs contain!

I don't think anyone disrespects Murph the player and Murph the loyal BlueBagger. His loyalty is brilliant and will serve him well in life. As a player, and considering his smaller stature, he's a bloody champ. And he's obviously respected by his peers as a player. But as a Captain? Sorry, but he just doesn't cut it. Gives it his best? Absolutely.

Certainly no disrespect to Murphy....I think many folk are of the opinion that the time is ripe though for a changing of the guard.
Hopefully Murph plays on for a couple of years.

Certainly no disrespect to Murphy....I think many folk are of the opinion that the time is ripe though for a changing of the guard.
Hopefully Murph plays on for a couple of years.

x2.

Certainly no disrespect to Murphy....I think many folk are of the opinion that the time is ripe though for a changing of the guard.
Hopefully Murph plays on for a couple of years.

Folk who observe Murph’s leadership from the wrong side of the fence Lods ????

It will be time to change the guard when Murph, the players and coaches decide that the time is right.  However, I suspect that it will be sooner rather than later given Murph’s comments at the beginning of the year.

I get the idea that the contest is between Cripps (on field) and Docherty (Off field) and that both of them have the ascendency in both scenarios.

Now we might not all think much of Docherty as a captain, but he plays football in Simpson fashion, is very level headed and has had his fair share of off field trauma that will mean that he will be much more "stable" as a leader.

If Cripps is demanding the captaincy though, his leadership wont diminsh Docherty's and provided they complement each other it will be fine.

Folk who observe Murph’s leadership from the wrong side of the fence Lods ????

It will be time to change the guard when Murph, the players and coaches decide that the time is right.  However, I suspect that it will be sooner rather than later given Murph’s comments at the beginning of the year.

I like the idea of a transition period...just as Judd did when he relinquished the captaincy and Murphy took over.
Murphy's presence in the side won't undermine either Cripps or Docherty....and freed of the responsibility we may get a couple of really good seasons out of Murph.
It just makes sense to me.

A couple pros and cons if you will.

Docherty
Pros
 - Has the game in front of him
 - Has a level head
 - Young and consistent

Cons
 - Coming off an injury, may never be the same player again
 - Needs to focus on his body first and foremost, doing a knee is a 24 month recovery (12 months physical, 12 months mental)
 - Cannot grab the game by the scruff of the neck
 - Smaller in stature

Cripps
Pros
 - Can influence the game being in the thick of the contest
 - Can push forward if/when required to assert his dominance on the game
 - Young and consistent
 - Freakish size and knows how to use it
 - Emotional, can be uplifting

Cons
 - Emotional, can be distracting
 - Might miss out on the bigger picture being in the clinches

I think i've covered everything off there.

Based on that, i reckon i've convinced myself that Cripps should be it.

Really comes down to bad timing for Doc, and Cripps' ability to turn/influence a game.

Even if Cripps gets it the Doc would likely still play a big leadership role and would likely be the general of our defence.

A couple pros and cons if you will.

Docherty
Pros
 - Has the game in front of him
 - Has a level head
 - Young and consistent

Cons
 - Coming off an injury, may never be the same player again
 - Needs to focus on his body first and foremost, doing a knee is a 24 month recovery (12 months physical, 12 months mental)
 - Cannot grab the game by the scruff of the neck
 - Smaller in stature

Cripps
Pros
 - Can influence the game being in the thick of the contest
 - Can push forward if/when required to assert his dominance on the game
 - Young and consistent
 - Freakish size and knows how to use it
 - Emotional, can be uplifting

Cons
 - Emotional, can be distracting
 - Might miss out on the bigger picture being in the clinches

I think i've covered everything off there.

Based on that, i reckon i've convinced myself that Cripps should be it.

Really comes down to bad timing for Doc, and Cripps' ability to turn/influence a game.

Without knowing the internal dynamics of the players, Bolton's ideas on captaincy etc. I think you're being rather presumptuous. And that list looks exactly like what it is - a list generated by a fan and spectator, not a club insider.

Without knowing the internal dynamics of the players, Bolton's ideas on captaincy etc. I think you're being rather presumptuous. And that list looks exactly like what it is - a list generated by a fan and spectator, not a club insider.

Did i give you the impression that i was anything but?
What a weird comment.

A couple pros and cons if you will.

Docherty
Pros
 - Has the game in front of him
 - Has a level head
 - Young and consistent

Cons
 - Coming off an injury, may never be the same player again
 - Needs to focus on his body first and foremost, doing a knee is a 24 month recovery (12 months physical, 12 months mental)
 - Cannot grab the game by the scruff of the neck
 - Smaller in stature

Cripps
Pros
 - Can influence the game being in the thick of the contest
 - Can push forward if/when required to assert his dominance on the game
 - Young and consistent
 - Freakish size and knows how to use it
 - Emotional, can be uplifting

Cons
 - Emotional, can be distracting
 - Might miss out on the bigger picture being in the clinches

I think i've covered everything off there.

Based on that, i reckon i've convinced myself that Cripps should be it.

Really comes down to bad timing for Doc, and Cripps' ability to turn/influence a game.

Cripps is physical and can look after his smaller team mates and I know its an old fashioned idea but I prefer a bigger player as captain who can
show aggression and get his teammates to follow him into battle. Docherty is a good intelligent footballer but he is a classy choirboy, we need a different captain with so many young kids.
We need a warrior not a classical band leader....

Enjoy the Crippa show

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2018-04-23/captain-cripps-delivers

Did i give you the impression that i was anything but?
What a weird comment.

The point I was making is that what we see on the outside may bear little representation to what the club thinks. It's possible the playing group think Cripps is a tool. It's possible that Doc hobnobbing with the coaches, MC etc. for a year enhances rather than diminishes his captaincy prospects etc.

You missed a massive con for cripps.   He can be exposed by a quick opponent and can be caught not being accountable.

He won't be like that his whole career but Docherty is anything but unaccountable.

Cripps and Docherty.

Either one would do a good job.

You missed a massive con for cripps.   He can be exposed by a quick opponent and can be caught not being accountable.

He won't be like that his whole career but Docherty is anything but unaccountable.

Not being accountable?
There is nothing more accountable than winning contested footy all day and carrying your teams hopes on your back at the ripe old age of 23.
We can all role out the old, he didn't chase at the 12 minute mark story....
The poor bloke is probably exhausted after his fourth effort in 2 minutes and we want to judge him on his accountability?
I can't wait for Murphy to become accountable like that

The kid busts his gut week in week out. His body gets smashed and he smashes the opposition in order to give our other mids an easier ride.

It reminds me of posters on here questioning Judds accountability. Seriously screwing laughable

Not being accountable?
There is nothing more accountable than winning contested footy all day and carrying your teams hopes on your back at the ripe old age of 23.
We can all role out the old, he didn't chase at the 12 minute mark story....
The poor bloke is probably exhausted after his fourth effort in 2 minutes and we want to judge him on his accountability?
I can't wait for Murphy to become accountable like that

The kid busts his gut week in week out. His body gets smashed and he smashes the opposition in order to give our other mids an easier ride.

It reminds me of posters on here questioning Judds accountability. Seriously screwing laughable

It's not NRL, there is far more to being accountable in AFL than just jogging to the next contest no matter how many of those contests you win! ;)

Cripps will get better, which is the whole point or both your own and Thry's posts.

Not being accountable?
There is nothing more accountable than winning contested footy all day and carrying your teams hopes on your back at the ripe old age of 23.
We can all role out the old, he didn't chase at the 12 minute mark story....
The poor bloke is probably exhausted after his fourth effort in 2 minutes and we want to judge him on his accountability?
I can't wait for Murphy to become accountable like that

The kid busts his gut week in week out. His body gets smashed and he smashes the opposition in order to give our other mids an easier ride.

It reminds me of posters on here questioning Judds accountability. Seriously screwing laughable

I understand you disagree, but I've seen Cripps give up on chasing men multiple times the last few weeks and this week vs West Coast, when they elected not to tag him, it didn't happen.

Collingwood did it.
North Melbourne did it.

he will learn from it, but the fact still remains that a quick opponent who could run off him could heavily expose him.

At AFL level if there is one thing I have learned from Murphy's captaincy is that teams look to exploit any weakness they have at any opportunity they can because beating the captain can be the key to winning a game and Cripps has weaknesses in his game that can be exploited.  That's a con, and its one that Kruddler missed in his summation.

I also believe Cripps will make a fine captain, its just something for him and the club to think about and work on.  I know a week is a long time in football, but the club, the MC and Cripps need to find a way to nullify that weakness irrespective of whether or not you believe it exists.

Finally on Murphy, we all know he has been an ordinary captain, but he works his dot off, and I can't knock him for that.  Hes not hercules, he has smashed his body from pillar to post in the clinches for us, and hasnt been durable and strong enough to endure it, and deserves a little more respect than the average punter gives him because irrespective of how badly he gets smashed he still continues to put his body on the line week in and week out, and Ive noted his tackling has improved a bit this season (lets not forget hes wrecked his shoulder twice playing for our footy club, and once they break they stay broken and make tackling difficult).

Cripps isnt going to chase many or catch them...thats just a fact, he isn quick and it will never be part of his game, he needs to get it 30-40 times a week to make up for it, like Sam Mitchell did for example..
Teams tag Cripps or they have a outside runner play off him and hope to hurt us that way, his teammates are going to have to provide cover and chase his man like he provides cover for them at the coalface.
Its a game of odds where you back Cripps to do more damage like he did vs WC....

Finally on Murphy, we all know he has been an ordinary captain, but he works his dot off, and I can't knock him for that.  Hes not hercules, he has smashed his body from pillar to post in the clinches for us, and hasnt been durable and strong enough to endure it, and deserves a little more respect than the average punter gives him because irrespective of how badly he gets smashed he still continues to put his body on the line week in and week out, and Ive noted his tackling has improved a bit this season (lets not forget hes wrecked his shoulder twice playing for our footy club, and once they break they stay broken and make tackling difficult).

Lately I've read more and more posters making these points, why have they taken so long to surface?

This debate about captaincy is mired in stereotypes, perceptions and personal preferences. The irony for me is that I cannot say Judd was a Hodge or Brown type captain, yet he copped none of the invective Murphy has to deal with! Ablett Jnr is another, yet stat for stat Murphy is the closest we have to an Ablett Jnr type, and Ablett Jnr was unquestionably the captain! So what is the measure that determines good, bad or ordinary?

The majority of critical posts seem anchored in the realm that A-Graders and Leaders have to be a certain type of player, and if they are not that type they are NBG as leaders. I know fans do not believe that, and to continually demand it from players who clearly do not fit that mold is just bizarre!

The same posters do not complain when Casboult fails to play like Rioli, why do they ask Murphy to play like Hodge?

I understand you disagree, but I've seen Cripps give up on chasing men multiple times the last few weeks and this week vs West Coast, when they elected not to tag him, it didn't happen.

Collingwood did it.
North Melbourne did it.

he will learn from it, but the fact still remains that a quick opponent who could run off him could heavily expose him.

At AFL level if there is one thing I have learned from Murphy's captaincy is that teams look to exploit any weakness they have at any opportunity they can because beating the captain can be the key to winning a game and Cripps has weaknesses in his game that can be exploited.  That's a con, and its one that Kruddler missed in his summation.

I also believe Cripps will make a fine captain, its just something for him and the club to think about and work on.  I know a week is a long time in football, but the club, the MC and Cripps need to find a way to nullify that weakness irrespective of whether or not you believe it exists.

Finally on Murphy, we all know he has been an ordinary captain, but he works his dot off, and I can't knock him for that.  Hes not hercules, he has smashed his body from pillar to post in the clinches for us, and hasnt been durable and strong enough to endure it, and deserves a little more respect than the average punter gives him because irrespective of how badly he gets smashed he still continues to put his body on the line week in and week out, and Ive noted his tackling has improved a bit this season (lets not forget hes wrecked his shoulder twice playing for our footy club, and once they break they stay broken and make tackling difficult).

Two points Thry:

1.  Cripps was tagged and that's why he was particularly physical with Dom Sheed.

2.  No-one knows that Murphy has been an ordinary captain.  Some folk may think that, but others, including Juddy and Bolts, assert that he is a very good captain.

Cripps was tagged and that's why he was particularly physical with Dom Sheed

Fans seem to think that under constant tagging Cripps will be able to play like that week in and week out, it's a pure fantasy!

When he's having a bad day, what does he bring as leader?

Cripps will be able to do all he does now and be as inspirational as he is now, whether he's captain or not. I doubt his team mates will find him any less inspirational or accountable in the absence of a title.

2.  No-one knows that Murphy has been an ordinary captain.  Some folk may think that, but others, including Juddy and Bolts, assert that he is a very good captain.

If know one knows then how do Judd and Bolton?

If know one knows then how do Judd and Bolton?

Read what I wrote more carefully MBB  ;)  Assert is not the same as know! 

I assert that the views of Juddy, Bolts and the playing group about Murph's captaincy are more informed/accurate than the views/opinions of supporters generally and most of those folk paid to have opinions about football matters.

If no one knows then how do Judd and Bolton?

They are not just anybody, in this matter they are not like another person on the street, they are both specialists and experts in privileged positions, with information that the rest of us are not party to, privileged information!

Media and forum members might question those assertions, but those questions are posed from very weak positions. Positions that are almost worthless in the debate, if not for the influence of marketing people and administrators.

The "no one knows" argument reminds me of the climate deniers who think their opinion is equal to that of thousands of climate experts!

Read what I wrote more carefully MBB  ;)  Assert is not the same as know! 

I assert that the views of Juddy, Bolts and the playing group about Murph's captaincy are more informed/accurate than the views/opinions of supporters generally and most of those folk paid to have opinions about football matters.

You keep writing that kind of thing that the staff, players and coach etc. knows best but you're happy to post your own opinions and in case you haven't noticed we're a crap club so maybe they don't have a clue what's best? ;D

I think the tell for Bolton, SOS etc. is in the actions rather than the words. It goes without saying that they will pump up Murph's tyres in public, but if the action is to keep him as captain up to now, then I guess he is "best available." Silvagni played under Kernahan, and Bolts worked with Hodge, so I figure between them they know a thing or two about good captains. I'm sure they would have given the job to someone better, if they had the option.

At any rate, Murphy's reign is very near the end, so we can look forward to opining about the next candidate real soon.

You keep writing that kind of thing that the staff, players and coach etc. knows best but you're happy to post your own opinions and in case you haven't noticed we're a crap club so maybe they don't have a clue what's best? ;D

Well, we've certainly been an extremely poorly performing club for a very long time as evidenced by the depth of the hole we found ourselves in. I think anyone trying to defend that record would have their work cut out. Our current coaching and list management have full awareness of that and of the size of the job to get us out of that hole. It's very early to pre-judge how they might go but just pray that they know what they're doing, because if they don't we have many more long years of frustration and heartbreak ahead of us.

Silvagni played under Kernahan, and Bolts worked with Hodge, so I figure between them they know a thing or two about good captains. I'm sure they would have given the job to someone better, if they had the option.

Two very good examples of the difference in leadership, Kernahan's attack on the football was pure, extremely hard but completely fair and within the rules. Hodge was uncompromising to the point of being illegal.

A lot of Kernahan era past players, our and theirs, consider him one of the greatest captains of all time!

This debate about captaincy is mired in stereotypes, perceptions and personal preferences. The irony for me is that I cannot say Judd was a Hodge or Brown type captain, yet he copped none of the invective Murphy has to deal with!

I am not sure what your expectations were but I don't think he could have done much more.
Playing on the ball all day and winning contested footy is a bit tougher than playing outside.

We stuffed Judd up and shortened his career by turning him into a inside mid....he led more by example than being a player who rallied the troops with speeches etc..
We need to learn from Judd and not bugger up Cripps either, the kid will be burnt out and a cripple if he keeps having to carry the team over the line....

I am not sure what your expectations were but I don't think he could have done much more.
Playing on the ball all day and winning contested footy is a bit tougher than playing outside.

We stuffed Judd up and shortened his career by turning him into a inside mid....

If I recall either in his book or a published article he wrote that it was his decision, not something we forced him to do.

I also heard him mention on radio once that a longer career was not guaranteed if he had continued the high intensity outside running he was known for. From his book and his various statements I infer that he effectively made a decision between what he thought was the lesser of two evils, bruising and muscles soreness over joint damage and pain.

I think that flies in the face of the idea that outside running at AFL intensity is somehow easier! It may be bruise free, but easier, I suspect not!

We stuffed Judd up and shortened his career by turning him into a inside mid....he led more by example than being a player who rallied the troops with speeches etc..
We need to learn from Judd and not bugger up Cripps either, the kid will be burnt out and a cripple if he keeps having to carry the team over the line....

Totally agree. He desperately needs some quality reinforcements asap. Hopefully Kennedy will come back in soon but we need more and we must not let him battle on for another year without these. He needs more time between shifts!

We stuffed Judd up and shortened his career by turning him into a inside mid....he led more by example than being a player who rallied the troops with speeches etc..
We need to learn from Judd and not bugger up Cripps either, the kid will be burnt out and a cripple if he keeps having to carry the team over the line....

Funnily enough...
I've always found it hard to be critical of Murphy. The introduction to senior football he was provided by the club, and his teammates in particular, was very much less than it could have been. The poor kid was targeted and knocked silly in his early days.

It's the problem we have when we call upon some players to carry more than their share. (Judd, Cripps.... even Weitering to some extent.) Some players carry the burden well, but it must have a debilitating effect as the years go by.

It's the problem we have when we call upon some players to carry more than their share. (Judd, Cripps.... even Weitering to some extent.) Some players carry the burden well, but it must have a debilitating effect as the years go by.

It's why Murphy is so good Lods, and clearly the only choice for captain, he's never stopped committing himself despite all the battering we subjected him to, by our choice!

The irony of posters complaining about our treatment of Judd, while busily lambasting Murphy, is not lost on me!

Really, that first year of Murphy's career was a disgrace, a very dark day for Carlton FC! He was thrown in the deep end and survived. I have no doubt his performance ever since has been degraded despite it still being clearly A-Grade, he is probably besides Judd the only other player over that period who was clearly and consistently A-grade.

Carlton is such a contrast to clubs like Geelong and the Dawks, half the time you don't hear about their draftees until they are 2 or 3 years in! For a long time we seen to be calling time on guys before they have even had a chance to fire a shot!

I suppose that is our historical silver-spoon mindset, Lords of the Manor making use of the utilitarian players as a resource, if we break one we can always buy another! It reeks of disrespect!

You missed a massive con for cripps.   He can be exposed by a quick opponent and can be caught not being accountable.

He won't be like that his whole career but Docherty is anything but unaccountable.

....and Docherty can be exposed in the air by a resting ruckman. Nobody is perfect.

As for not being accountable, he had 11 tackles last week. When was the last time Doc or Murph had that many? FYI, never and 2014. Cripps has still had more tackles in a game than the other 2.

....and Docherty can be exposed in the air by a resting ruckman. Nobody is perfect.

As for not being accountable, he had 11 tackles last week. When was the last time Doc or Murph had that many? FYI, never and 2014. Cripps has still had more tackles in a game than the other 2.

Murphy had eight tackles in his last game, Cripps had one in that game.  It's swings and roundabouts.

Murphy had eight tackles in his last game, Cripps had one in that game.  It's swings and roundabouts.

Cripps averages 2 more tackles a game than Murphy does over their career.

.....and 3 more than docherty.

The more you play at the coalface the more tackles you will gather.

Let's not use tackling as a measure of accountability because some of the best defenders in the game never tackle.   For Docherty to be close says a lot.

The more you play at the coalface the more tackles you will gather.

Let's not use tackling as a measure of accountability because some of the best defenders in the game never tackle.   For Docherty to be close says a lot.

Doc has less than half as much...so not exactly close...but i agree its unfair to use him as its apples with oranges.

It was more about Cripps being a 'step up' from Murphy playing a similar role.

Sure, its not about accountability exactly, but it can highlight accountability. ;)

Doc has less than half as much...so not exactly close...but i agree its unfair to use him as its apples with oranges.

It was more about Cripps being a 'step up' from Murphy playing a similar role.

Sure, its not about accountability exactly, but it can highlight accountability. ;)

The only similarity in their role is that they are usually in the same part of the ground. 

It's probably also worth considering that Murphy is 180cm and 80kg and Cripps is 195cm and 93kg.  A midfielder of Cripps' size needs to be able to use his strength and size to hurt the opposition both physically and metaphorically.  Murphy, on the other hand, has to rely on his speed and footy smarts to hurt the opposition - and that's not implying that Cripps lacks footy smarts.

The only similarity in their role is that they are usually in the same part of the ground. 

It's probably also worth considering that Murphy is 180cm and 80kg and Cripps is 195cm and 93kg.  A midfielder of Cripps' size needs to be able to use his strength and size to hurt the opposition both physically and metaphorically.  Murphy, on the other hand, has to rely on his speed and footy smarts to hurt the opposition - and that's not implying that Cripps lacks footy smarts.

Another reason he'd be a step up on Murphy as captain.

Its a psychological advantage as much as a physical one.

Nobody looks across (and down) at Murphy and starts pooing their dacks. However, someone looking across (and up) at Cripps would be second guessing their life choices, even if for a fleeting moment.

The captain is a symbol. It is a window into the club, and team. It should be a representative of the team and how they play.

Selwood @ Geelong. Tough, uncompromising.
Ablett @ Gold Coast. Classy, but bruise free.
Kelly @ Swans. Honest battler, never say die attitude.
Voss @ Brisbane. Arrogant, classy, tough as nails.
Trengove/Grimes @ Melbourne. Young, inexperienced, pushover.
Jones/Viney @ Melbourne. Workmanlike, hardened, blue collar.
Maxwell @ Collingwood. Uncompromising, does their role.
Carey @ North. Consistent performer, loose off-field.
Murphy @ Carlton. Bruise free, needs ideal conditions to flourish.
Cripps @ Carlton? You've got a fight on your hands.

Another reason he'd be a step up on Murphy as captain.

Its a psychological advantage as much as a physical one.

Nobody looks across (and down) at Murphy and starts pooing their dacks. However, someone looking across (and up) at Cripps would be second guessing their life choices, even if for a fleeting moment.

The captain is a symbol. It is a window into the club, and team. It should be a representative of the team and how they play.

Selwood @ Geelong. Tough, uncompromising.
Ablett @ Gold Coast. Classy, but bruise free.
Kelly @ Swans. Honest battler, never say die attitude.
Voss @ Brisbane. Arrogant, classy, tough as nails.
Trengove/Grimes @ Melbourne. Young, inexperienced, pushover.
Jones/Viney @ Melbourne. Workmanlike, hardened, blue collar.
Maxwell @ Collingwood. Uncompromising, does their role.
Carey @ North. Consistent performer, loose off-field.
Murphy @ Carlton. Bruise free, needs ideal conditions to flourish.
Cripps @ Carlton? You've got a fight on your hands.

And that's where your analysis falls down.  Captaining a football club is a lot more complex than what supporters see from the stands.

The other Murphy is a prime example.  Even though he missed the season through injury, Bob Murphy was a huge factor in the Doggies' premiership.  To me, Bob Murphy is closer to Glenn Manton, or perhaps Tommy Alvin, than any other players we've had in the recent past.

What makes me think that Cripps will be our captain, in due course, is the role he has played in helping Zac Fisher to develop his ability to play in the midfield.  That to me is far more important than the physicality that Cripps is able to bring to bear on match day.

Another reason he'd be a step up on Murphy as captain.

Its a psychological advantage as much as a physical one.

Nobody looks across (and down) at Murphy and starts pooing their dacks. However, someone looking across (and up) at Cripps would be second guessing their life choices, even if for a fleeting moment.

The captain is a symbol. It is a window into the club, and team. It should be a representative of the team and how they play.

Selwood @ Geelong. Tough, uncompromising.
Ablett @ Gold Coast. Classy, but bruise free.
Kelly @ Swans. Honest battler, never say die attitude.
Voss @ Brisbane. Arrogant, classy, tough as nails.
Trengove/Grimes @ Melbourne. Young, inexperienced, pushover.
Jones/Viney @ Melbourne. Workmanlike, hardened, blue collar.
Maxwell @ Collingwood. Uncompromising, does their role.
Carey @ North. Consistent performer, loose off-field.
Murphy @ Carlton. Bruise free, needs ideal conditions to flourish.
Cripps @ Carlton? You've got a fight on your hands.

I generally agree that a bigger and more imposing captain is better, but the rest of the post is very dubious IMO.

And that's where your analysis falls down.  Captaining a football club is a lot more complex than what supporters see from the stands.
.............................................

Generally agree. I suspect almost all of a captain's best work is unheard by the public at large, and a lesser but still significant amount of their best work is also unseen.

I know it's not traditional but I would love our young group to have both Doc and Cripps as joint Captains next year. The Curnows as VC's. I don't have any reasons behind the thinking, that's just what I think might work

Generally agree. I suspect almost all of a captain's best work is unheard by the public at large, and a lesser but still significant amount of their best work is also unseen.

But the one thing they can't be is small and physically weak
Murphy just doesn't impose himself, in fact he often get's pushed around and knocked over and his answer, look for a free.
What sort of role model or image is that for all these kids coming through.

What successful side has ever had a captain that gets physically knocked around like Murphy does?

And that's where your analysis falls down.  Captaining a football club is a lot more complex than what supporters see from the stands.

The other Murphy is a prime example.  Even though he missed the season through injury, Bob Murphy was a huge factor in the Doggies' premiership.  To me, Bob Murphy is closer to Glenn Manton, or perhaps Tommy Alvin, than any other players we've had in the recent past.

What makes me think that Cripps will be our captain, in due course, is the role he has played in helping Zac Fisher to develop his ability to play in the midfield.  That to me is far more important than the physicality that Cripps is able to bring to bear on match day.

I'm not saying it is the ONLY reason, i already stated plenty of other reasons previously....and am not discounting them.
As for Bob Murphy....we don't have an equivalent, so that example doesn't help us here.

What i'm suggesting is that there are quite a few players who would be considered leaders, and when choosing from them who should be captain you ignore the similarities and focus on the differences. Thats how you distinguish between them. So i'm assuming they all have those qualities as 'those in the know' have them in the leadership group.

Personally, i know that i walked taller playing under a ruckman captain than i did playing under a small mid (Murphy clone actually) during my footy career. Presence out on the ground simply cannot be matched from the smaller bloke.

http://www.appliedsportpsych.org/resources/resources-for-athletes/the-3-c-s-of-being-a-captain/.  (http://www.appliedsportpsych.org/resources/resources-for-athletes/the-3-c-s-of-being-a-captain/.)

Before we discuss who should be filling the role of our capt maybe we should agree on the qualities we would be looking for. Otherwise we can end up with a meandering debate. So, here is a link to a broad brush description of what those qualities might be for starters.

But the one thing they can't be is small and physically weak
Murphy just doesn't impose himself, in fact he often get's pushed around and knocked over and his answer, look for a free.
What sort of role model or image is that for all these kids coming through.

What successful side has ever had a captain that gets physically knocked around like Murphy does?

I think on the Staging For Frees Index, Murphy rates pretty low IMO, in an industry where such habits are not only encouraged, but dare I say also discussed and rehearsed.

Leaders come in different shapes and sizes. If I was playing alongside Murph, I would simply accept that he is one player out of 22 that has a job to do. He's being given the role of captain, he's not big or strong, and doesn't physically intimidate, but there's other players who are able do that, and they can do that, whether they are captain or not. He brings other qualities to the role, and I would pretty much leave it at that, and just get on with it.

I've said it before - much too much is made of the role of captain - one individual simply cannot make that much difference. Any player who has a bad day and blames the captain for not inspiring them, or not being big and tough enough, should be sacked on the spot. I realise for some people the captain has to be big and tough, intimidating etc., but I'm not from that school of thought. I think it disempowers team members when they believe that so and so should "inspire" them, or iron out some opponent. I think it's a sign of weakness to wait for others to do those things. Every player should be a leader as it were, and should be empowered to act as a captain acts in these circumstances.

Our plight in recent seasons would have been exactly the same irrespective of who our captain was, be it Sticks or anyone else.

I think on the Staging For Frees Index, Murphy rates pretty low IMO, in an industry where such habits are not only encouraged, but dare I say also discussed and rehearsed.

Leaders come in different shapes and sizes. If I was playing alongside Murph, I would simply accept that he is one player out of 22 that has a job to do. He's being given the role of captain, he's not big or strong, and doesn't physically intimidate, but there's other players who are able do that, and they can do that, whether they are captain or not. He brings other qualities to the role, and I would pretty much leave it at that, and just get on with it.

I've said it before - much too much is made of the role of captain - one individual simply cannot make that much difference. Any player who has a bad day and blames the captain for not inspiring them, or not being big and tough enough, should be sacked on the spot. I realise for some people the captain has to be big and tough, intimidating etc., but I'm not from that school of thought. I think it disempowers team members when they believe that so and so should "inspire" them, or iron out some opponent. I think it's a sign of weakness to wait for others to do those things. Every player should be a leader as it were, and should be empowered to act as a captain acts in these circumstances.

Our plight in recent seasons would have been exactly the same irrespective of who our captain was, be it Sticks or anyone else.

Like

As a small aside, Jonathan Brown was co captain of the Lions in 07-08, then sole captain from 09-12, then co captain in 2013. The Lions played finals in just one of those years, and often finished in the lower reaches of the ladder.

I think on the Staging For Frees Index, Murphy rates pretty low IMO, in an industry where such habits are not only encouraged, but dare I say also discussed and rehearsed.

Compare Selwood and Murphy.

Both stage for free kicks. One earns them more than the other and comes off most weeks looking like a mummy.

Selwood would practice staging for free kicks, or at least earning them with his shrug.
Murphy doesn't need to practice throwing his head back.

I've said it before - much too much is made of the role of captain - one individual simply cannot make that much difference.

How much difference can a colour make? What about a whole jumper design?
I'm tipping a lot less than a captain, but yet, our club, and others around the world, have changed them in order to turn fortunes around in one way or another.

Keep in mind playing football in your local league is different to that of AFL level. A Captain at AFL level needs to have more strings to their bow.

As stupid as it sounds, the right captain can not just ease pressure on the coach, but the whole club.

Look at how the people on here who used to give it to Gibbs on a weekly basis. Even if he played a blinder, some people simply didn't like the way he went about it. Bryce Squibbs could often be heard on here and in the outer. That is how opposition supporters see him. That trickles into the media as well.
Similar can be said about Marc Murphy, except being captain the scrutiny is 10-fold.

Look at how the media have already jumped on board the Cripps-train and suggesting Murphy should be replaced.
Any poor performance Murphy puts in from here will reignite that debate. He is a divisive figure outside our football club. As a result pressure is heaped on him, and the club. Bolton is forced to defend him at press conferences and forced to defend his own stance. Questions are asked of those above him as well.

Cripps as captain and 95% of that noise disappears.

In short, the captain should represent your brand. Not only for your teammates, but the extended AFL community as a whole.

When you say "the right captain", you mean the right captain as ordained by the media ? Well, f#ck 'em. The last group we should be bowing to are the media. We've been extremely weak in this respect for ages. They will always find a new whipping boy. In late 2012, the media determined we needed to change coach and Mick was the man. Then in early 2015, they again determined we had to change coach because Mick wasn't the man. We need to resist their nonsense, because eventually they will move on to the next story, scandal etc.

Murphy is nearing the end anyway. He will be gone soon enough, and then we can whinge about Doc, Cripps etc.

When you say "the right captain", you mean the right captain as ordained by the media ?

No.

I mean the right captain for the football club.

That is the players, coaches etc.
That is also enhancing the brand of the club, which helps with members, supporters, AFL community including the media.

Each time i make a post about this, someone assumes that is the ONLY requirement. It is not.

No.

I mean the right captain for the football club.

That is the players, coaches etc.
That is also enhancing the brand of the club, which helps with members, supporters, AFL community including the media.

Each time i make a post about this, someone assumes that is the ONLY requirement. It is not.

How do you know that Murph isn't that player, at least for now ?

How do you know that Murph isn't that player, at least for now ?

I don't think Murphy was ever the right player. Carrazzo and Simpson should've got it instead of him.

But as for now...
For all the reasons i've discussed thus far.

I don't think Murphy was ever the right player. Carrazzo and Simpson should've got it instead of him.

But as for now...
For all the reasons i've discussed thus far.

That's not really what I was asking. If the club is going through a full reset, including, one would think, a process to select the best captain, why is Murphy still in the role ? Bolton is into his 3rd year now. It's not as if he hasn't had enough time.

You can't assume the club hasn't gone through the correct process because you don't agree with the selection.

I don't think Murphy was ever the right player. Carrazzo and Simpson should've got it instead of him.

But as for now...
For all the reasons i've discussed thus far.

x2

That's not really what I was asking. If the club is going through a full reset, including, one would think, a process to select the best captain, why is Murphy still in the role ? Bolton is into his 3rd year now. It's not as if he hasn't had enough time.

You can't assume the club hasn't gone through the correct process because you don't agree with the selection.

When Bolton came in, he wouldn't dare choose anyone other than Murphy for captain.

He couldn't give it to Simpson, because it should've been done before and he is/was too old. How he is still going today is remarkable.
He couldn't give it to Cripps, Doc because they were too young and not half the players they are today.
So he could he have given it too?

As for the 'process', i'm dubious of that anyway.

Previously the process has been exposed from a former player, and former assistant. Votes for the leadership were given by players and calculated by the coaching staff....who proceeded to shift players in and out of the leadership group as they saw fit, ignoring the voting 'process'.
The club has a history in 'choosing' who they want, overriding the players and in Micks case, the coach as well.
Why do you think this time is any different? There has been shifty's going on with the last 2 coaches, why not now?

Where are these exposés as provided by the former player and assistant ? Why do you assume that the voting process was solely the preserve of the players ? You imply the coaches input into the process was corrupt - should not the coaches get a vote as well ? If it's only the players who vote, isn't it possible that it may descend into a popularity contest ? Perhaps, just perhaps, the process was fair and reasonable all along and it was made clear to the players that their vote was not final, nor was it binding.

You say it's remarkable that Murph has lasted this long. Without knowing what goes on inside the club, maybe we should allow for the possibility that it isn't all that remarkable.

If what you say is true, and the process is deeply flawed, even after a full reset, then the club should just pack up and call it a day. I'll buddy up with my James Hird inflatable doll, and go and support the Bombers.

If what you say is true, and the process is deeply flawed, even after a full reset, then the club should just pack up and call it a day. I'll buddy up with my James Hird inflatable doll, and go and support the Bombers.

Somehow I don't think you need to worry, there is more to selecting a captain than the meat-head approach!

If you took too literally many of those demands posted on Murphy as captain, then Mitch Robinson would have been the logical choice! ;D

You need some blunt tools in a team, but it doesn't have to be the captain. I think most posters are frustrated because we have none at all!

Ownership of a JTurd doll is a little disturbing though! :o

Somehow I don't think you need to worry, there is more to selecting a captain than the meat-head approach!

Although ownership of a JTurd doll is a little disturbing! :o

Having a club that is potentially still dysfunctional even after the reset is 1000x worse than my doll, thank you very much.

Having a club that is potentially still dysfunctional even after the reset is 1000x worse than my doll, thank you very much.

I don't think we are dysfunctional, it's a very simplistic explanation of what the fans observe, they need a single current point of blame and cannot help but think fixes will be instantaneous!

I do not deny the process is frustrating, but it does have a clear destination with more than one available route that most cannot agree on!

Where are these exposés as provided by the former player and assistant ? Why do you assume that the voting process was solely the preserve of the players ? You imply the coaches input into the process was corrupt - should not the coaches get a vote as well ? If it's only the players who vote, isn't it possible that it may descend into a popularity contest ? Perhaps, just perhaps, the process was fair and reasonable all along and it was made clear to the players that their vote was not final, nor was it binding.

You say it's remarkable that Murph has lasted this long. Without knowing what goes on inside the club, maybe we should allow for the possibility that it isn't all that remarkable.

If what you say is true, and the process is deeply flawed, even after a full reset, then the club should just pack up and call it a day. I'll buddy up with my James Hird inflatable doll, and go and support the Bombers.

First paragraph, I don't assume anything.
I was told what the players were told.
I was told what the coaches decided afterwards.
Either the coaches lied to the players beforehand. Or they changed their mind afterwards and failed to tell the players.
In any event, it breeds mistrust amongst the group, especially when the message trickles down from one of the assistant coaches to at least one of the players at the time.

As for 'remarkable'....i was clearly talking about Simpson, not Murphy. If this type of comprehension is commonplace, i'm not surprised you are still arguing.

I know the original source of the rumors Kruddler refers to and it was initally a disgruntled past player.

Actually, since Ratts time it's been the same player as the source for many of these rumors, someone who just wouldn't tow the team line and got the kibosh because of it! The bloke is still sprouting rumors about the current Carlton club even though his AFL career ended up at a foreign club some time ago!

The system is simple, players vote on the members of the leadership group, from the list of top nominations the coaches selected the leadership group, captain and VC from that list. Not all the top nominations make the final cut, and the captain isn't necessarily the top player choice, although Daisy confirmed he thought after voting Murphy was the unanimous player selection for this year, and that was later confirmed a couple of weeks later by the coaches. The proposed captain has to accept the nomination, you cannot be made captain if you do not want it!

The coaches by the way, at the time Daisy's opinion was offered, refused to confirm or deny Murphy would again be captain. I suppose that is because of the two things that must happen after the player vote.

It has to be that way because the players have no idea who is a keeper and who is a trade bait, you cannot have players select a captain who will be possibly traded at season end, it kills club culture!

I know the original source of the rumors Kruddler refers to and it was initally a disgruntled past player.

Actually, since Ratts time it's been the same player as the source for many of these rumors, someone who just wouldn't tow the team line and got the kibosh because of it! The bloke is still sprouting rumors about the current Carlton club even though his AFL career ended up at a foreign club some time ago!

The system is simple, players vote on the members of the leadership group, from the list of top nominations the coaches selected the leadership group, captain and VC from that list. Not all the top nominations make the final cut, and the captain isn't necessarily the top player choice, although Daisy confirmed he thought after voting Murphy was the unanimous player selection for this year, and that was later confirmed a couple of weeks later by the coaches. The proposed captain has to accept the nomination, you cannot be made captain if you do not want it!

The coaches by the way at the time Daisy's opinion was offered refused to confirm or deny Murphy would again be captain. I suppose that is because of the two things that must happen after the player vote.

It has to be that way because the players have no idea who is a keeper and who is a trade bait, you cannot have players select a captain who will be possibly traded at season end, it kills club culture!

Well based on your critique of my supposed source....you are incorrect. That info is describing someone else. Which suggests that multiple players knew.

As for the rest of your post. All that is true. But also doesn't fit.
FWIW, player(s) who were selected in the top handful were exluded from the leadership group....and was never traded.
Player(s) who didn't make the top 10 in the votes were included in the leadership group.

With a process like that....why have a process at all?

Kruddler, I'm telling you the rumours you profligate originate from a source that was around almost a decade ago and have been repeated and distorted many times over and over again since they originally surfaced. They have been around since before Murphy was captain, and go back to even when Judd arrived and was made captain! They have become more vitriolic and distorted year by year.

None of us would seriously question Judd being made captain, and so back then these rumours had no traction.

Our clubs leadership voting process has not changed for a very long time, I understand it's been that way going back at least as far as the Parkin/Brittain era!

First paragraph, I don't assume anything.
I was told what the players were told.
I was told what the coaches decided afterwards.
Either the coaches lied to the players beforehand. Or they changed their mind afterwards and failed to tell the players.
In any event, it breeds mistrust amongst the group, especially when the message trickles down from one of the assistant coaches to at least one of the players at the time.

As for 'remarkable'....i was clearly talking about Simpson, not Murphy. If this type of comprehension is commonplace, i'm not surprised you are still arguing.

Seeing as how you appear not to know the difference between looking for answers and arguing, I doubt you're in a position to be handing out bitchy backhanders for misunderstandings of no great consequence.

You guys can argue until you're blue in the face but spill the beans man!

Kruddler, I'm telling you the rumours you profligate originate from a source that was around almost a decade ago and have been repeated and distorted many times over and over again since they originally surfaced. They have been around since before Murphy was captain, and go back to even when Judd arrived and was made captain! They have become more vitriolic and distorted year by year.

None of us would seriously question Judd being made captain, and so back then these rumours had no traction.

Our clubs leadership voting process has not changed for a very long time, I understand it's been that way going back at least as far as the Parkin/Brittain era!

This is pre-judd era i'm talking.

These rumours were not something i heard in the media before or since. This was from the inner sanctum.

I'm a little confused...if we're talking pre-Judd era what's the relevance for the captain selection process 10 years later. ???

I'm a little confused...if we're talking pre-Judd era what's the relevance for the captain selection process 10 years later. ???

I'm talking pre-judd era dodginess in regards to picking captaincy/leaders.
There was also the Mick era that was famous for controversy regarding the captaincy/leaders.

Paul is suggesting that the club knows best because the players chose Murphy.

I'm calling bollocks due to a history of doctoring in the past.

I'm talking pre-judd era dodginess in regards to picking captaincy/leaders.
There was also the Mick era that was famous for controversy regarding the captaincy/leaders.

Paul is suggesting that the club knows best because the players chose Murphy.

I'm calling bollocks due to a history of doctoring in the past.

No, I'm saying I want straight answers from verifiable sources as to whether the process is legit or corrupt.

If Cripps or Doc are made captain, how do we know the process is now legit, assuming it was ever dodgy ?

No, I'm saying I want straight answers from verifiable sources as to whether the process is legit or corrupt.

So you want the club to come and tell everybody that what they have been doing is dodgy?

Will that help you believe that the next process is not dodgy or is it more likely to be dodgy?

Just realise that the club is not infallible.

So you want the club to come and tell everybody that what they have been doing is dodgy?

Will that help you believe that the next process is not dodgy or is it more likely to be dodgy?

Just realise that the club is not infallible.

I am quite aware that the club is fallible. That's not the point. If they cannot be trusted to correctly follow a basic simple process, then the question of who is elected captain is not only a sham, but it is of complete irrelevance.

I am quite aware that the club is fallible. That's not the point. If they cannot be trusted to correctly follow a basic simple process, then the question of who is elected captain is not only a sham, but it is of complete irrelevance.

It is not irrelevent, but it is not the most pressing issue.

You may have recalled me raging about Trigg almost from day 1. Talked the talk, did SFA about it.

I've also pointed the finger at Andy Mac on more than one occasion too.

Just because we have issues elsewhere, does not mean we have to continue them in every area of the club though. Getting the right captain can help overcome some other issues...including making our club more attractive for potential free agents / trade targets. Which in turn will help with membership, financials and just about everything else.

We've been as 'dodgy as' in the past in many respects.
It may be a bit naive but as a member it's an area I'd hope we're improving.
If nothing else Bolton strikes me as "fair dinkum fella" who would set a standard of 'above board' behaviour and fairness.

It is not irrelevent, but it is not the most pressing issue.

You may have recalled me raging about Trigg almost from day 1. Talked the talk, did SFA about it.

I've also pointed the finger at Andy Mac on more than one occasion too.

Just because we have issues elsewhere, does not mean we have to continue them in every area of the club though. Getting the right captain can help overcome some other issues...including making our club more attractive for potential free agents / trade targets. Which in turn will help with membership, financials and just about everything else.

You continually make assumptions which can't be proven - all of which starts with the premise that Murphy is the wrong captain, and that if we change to Cripps, then all of a sudden we attract more members, more money, better players etc. I don't think FA will care who is captain. They will care about the coach, ladder position, playing finals, $$$, who their team mates are etc.

You continually make assumptions which can't be proven - all of which starts with the premise that Murphy is the wrong captain, and that if we change to Cripps, then all of a sudden we attract more members, more money, better players etc. I don't think FA will care who is captain. They will care about the coach, ladder position, playing finals, $$$, who their team mates are etc.

True Paul, although the order probably should be $$$, playing finals, coach, ladder position, teammates.  You could probably throw in partner's preferred place to live and proximity to family.

We've been as 'dodgy as' in the past in many respects.
It may be a bit naive but as a member it's an area I'd hope we're improving.
If nothing else Bolton strikes me as "fair dinkum fella" who would set a standard of 'above board' behaviour and fairness.

In fairness, its not always the coaches fault. Directives come from the higher ups as well.

In fairness, its not always the coaches fault. Directives come from the higher ups as well.

You'd hope the "fair dinkumness" extends up the chain ;)

You'd hope the "fair dinkumness" extends up the chain ;)

We hoped they were doing things properly a couple decades ago too. Look where that got us.

We hoped they were doing things properly a couple decades ago too. Look where that got us.

That's the whole point...we hope any dodginess has been eliminated.
If we haven't got that right we're on the wrong track because it 'WILL' come back to bite us.

This is pre-judd era i'm talking.

These rumours were not something i heard in the media before or since. This was from the inner sanctum.

Who said they were in the media?

Part of the reason we cop it from the media on most issues (e.g captaincy) is that our presence therein is close to nil. Apart from Sellers Maclure, who doesn't impress me all that much, we have or had oldies like Tim Lane or Walls, who now rarely contribute, or goof balls like Pang or (God forbid) Andy Maher. Possibly for gender reasons, someone like Sam Lane is considered a light weight.

Case in point - Docherty is out for the year. Get him to write a few opinion pieces for the AFL website or the Age. Get him on as a boundary rider / expert commentator on the televised matches. Get him on Access All Areas. He needs to be mixing with the 4th estate wherever possible. This helps to get and keep the media on side. We are way behind on this front IMO. We need plenty more CFC people doing this.

I should add, Judd is starting to do it, but there's still a long way to go IMO.

Case in point - Docherty is out for the year. Get him to write a few opinion pieces for the AFL website or the Age. Get him on as a boundary rider / expert commentator on the televised matches. Get him on Access All Areas. He needs to be mixing with the 4th estate wherever possible. This helps to get and keep the media on side. We are way behind on this front IMO. We need plenty more CFC people doing this.

Doubt it will happen, but it's a great idea!

In my experience CheatsFC TV will offer him a gig in two circumferences, when his contract is up for re-negotiation and they are interested or when he retires and they want dirt from an insider!

I should add, Judd is starting to do it, but there's still a long way to go IMO.

Judd is not on the AFL Broadcaster though, and I think Pang, Maher and Lane basically keep their jobs by being somewhat trivial!

Did anyone notice the Diesel Williams segment on The Front Bar? Malloy offers up a brown paper bag at the end citing Carlton reports that is the way he likes to be paid, Pang and Maher just laughed it off!

When they should have had some Chinese Takeaway ready to return for Malloy for delivery to Dusty, complete with Chopsticks!

The more sh1t you take the more they will shovel at you!

Doubt it will happen, but it's a great idea!

In my experience CheatsFC TV will offer him a gig in two circumferences, when his contract is up for re-negotiation and they are interested or when he retires and they want dirt from an insider!

Maybe you're right, but I'd like for them to at least try.

As Neil Finn said, "don't sell out, buy in."

Maybe you're right, but I'd like for them to at least try.

As Neil Finn said, "don't sell out, buy in."

Neil Finn has just sold out of Crowded house and bought into FleetwoodMac.....

Neil Finn has just sold out of Crowded house and bought into FleetwoodMac.....

It does sound like a long term thing, but given that they're oldies who don't make much new music or tour all that frequently, and given that CH has been a part time concern for years, I'm sure he'll have plenty of time for both, if he so chooses. 

The last clip I saw of Lindsey Buckingham was "meat-loafesque." :(

It does sound like a long term thing, but given that they're oldies who don't make much new music or tour all that frequently, and given that CH has been a part time concern for years, I'm sure he'll have plenty of time for both, if he so chooses.

Think it will be a disaster myself..Mike Campbell from the Heartbreakers is a underrated guitarist and should be able to cover Buckingham's guitar work but Neil Finn doing the vocals
with Stevie Nicks doesnt sit right IMO and is an odd choice. They tried the dual replacement for LB when he spat the dummy and left previously and it didnt work, the album was a flop and so were the concerts.
Without Buckingham its not FMac. Reckon NF will be glad to get back to CH and dream its over... ;)

Think it will be a disaster myself..Mike Campbell from the Heartbreakers is a underrated guitarist and should be able to cover Buckingham's guitar work but Neil Finn doing the vocals
with Stevie Nicks doesnt sit right IMO and is an odd choice. They tried the dual replacement for LB when he spat the dummy and left previously and it didnt work, the album was a flop and so were the concerts.
Without Buckingham its not FMac. Reckon NF will be glad to get back to CH and dream its over... ;)

You could well be right EB.

LB is pivotal to FM, no doubt about that.

To be honest, I'm not fussed how it pans out. I don't go to concerts anymore (assuming they even tour Down Under), and the current CH and FM albums I own are enough for me.

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2018-05-03/micd-up-patrick-cripps

I hope we don't leave the captaincy with Murphy or go with Docherty next year. They seem like good players and nice blokes but no offense they don't seem like natural leaders to me. This guy is just that.

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2018-05-03/micd-up-patrick-cripps

I hope we don't leave the captaincy with Murphy or go with Docherty next year. They seem like good players and nice blokes but no offense they don't seem like natural leaders to me. This guy is just that.

How does Cripps compare to the Murphy Mic'd Up?

I've watched that twice, and whilst he seems like a nice kid, that schtick is borderline irritating.

Maybe I'm just not cut out for team sports.

 ???
WTF was that... :))

Sounds like me at Dapto Leagues Club on a Friday night. ;D

That was a bit of fun but it doesn't tell us a lot other than he seems a friendly bloke and does seem to be controlling events at times.
I'd like to hear him in the serious rough and tumble of a game... but that's not likely.

If the club want fans to make the judgment they post Murphy Mic'd p and Docherty Mic'd Up!

If they don't want to be inclusive of us they won't!

Neil Finn would have been the #2 choice

(https://www.blueseum.org/show_image.php?id=37426&scalesize=o)

http://m.carltonfc.com.au/news/2018-07-10/gallery-tuesday-training

Watch the video of Docherty.

He's such an impressive bloke.

Cripps' defensive efforts of late have worried me in terms of him being next captain.
He gives the appearance, and i deliberately put it that way as I have no idea what is going on in his mind, of someone who watches his opponent run past while he jogs into the backline. Seen it quite a few times. He is much better defensively when in close quarters.

http://m.carltonfc.com.au/news/2018-07-10/gallery-tuesday-training

Watch the video of Docherty.

He's such an impressive bloke.

Yep, I still have Doch as my favorite to replace Murphy.

Cripps is impressive, for his age, but he's got some glaring issues that might make him too easily negated.

I really like Fisher, in another year or two I can see Docherty (C), Fisher (VC), it's not about influence and results but about Fisher's effort and commitment.

Cripps' defensive efforts of late have worried me in terms of him being next captain.
He gives the appearance, and i deliberately put it that way as I have no idea what is going on in his mind, of someone who watches his opponent run past while he jogs into the backline. Seen it quite a few times. He is much better defensively when in close quarters.

Is he just resigned to not being able to keep up?

Even so, that is probably a negative in the captaincy stakes whether it is deliberate or not!

He may well be, and that's why I put it in terms of his appearance. Not what you want your team mates seeing from their captain though.

He may well be, and that's why I put it in terms of his appearance. Not what you want your team mates seeing from their captain though.

he wouldn't be the first primo ball winner who was instructed to keep his powder dry for the next stoppage. Jobe Watson was probably the other most recent one who played like that, Diesel was also quite similar. Selwood also tends to be a bit that way!

If Cripps could distribute like those three we wouldn't give a rats ar5e!

Theres an old saying.

A man has to know his limitations.


Cripps not chasing might simply be that hes at the end of his current burst on ground, and needs a breather, or it could simply be an energy conservation approach.


I think any trends regarding this aspect of anyones game this season is not worth looking at because we have players going down every week, and seem to be -20 on rotations at many of our matches.

Theres an old saying.

A man has to know his limitations.


Cripps not chasing might simply be that hes at the end of his current burst on ground, and needs a breather, or it could simply be an energy conservation approach.


I think any trends regarding this aspect of anyones game this season is not worth looking at because we have players going down every week, and seem to be -20 on rotations at many of our matches.

You have to ask yourself a question Thry...has Cripps ever chased?

Opposition teams always man Cripps at the stoppage then run off him and play wide knowing he wont go with them........he doesnt have the tank or speed to chase and in his case he gets excused like Selwood, Greg Williams etc...he is a champ at what he does well and we need him fit at every stoppage not buggered from providing some useless chase that he will never be successful at anyway.
Problem arises when that man on him at the stoppage who runs off him(may not be the same man) gets a lot of the ball or is damaging and you have to way up the pros and cons....you virtually have an opposition player unmanned for the game. Now if thats a good player like a Pendlebury/Bontempelli etc you can get into trouble....

You have to ask yourself a question Thry...has Cripps ever chased?

Opposition teams always man Cripps at the stoppage then run off him and play wide knowing he wont go with them........he doesnt have the tank or speed to chase and in his case he gets excused like Selwood, Greg Williams etc...he is a champ at what he does well and we need him fit at every stoppage not buggered from providing some useless chase that he will never be successful at anyway.
Problem arises when that man on him at the stoppage gets a lot of the ball or is damaging and you have to way up the pros and cons....

It's true EB1, but if the team-mates of Selwood, Watson and Diesel had failed to cover for them they would get burnt as well!

To me it's says we are in self-preservation mode, a bunch of individuals, rather than working as a team.

It may be a strike against Cripps as a potential captain, but it's probably an even bigger issue for the coach!

You have to ask yourself a question Thry...has Cripps ever chased?

Opposition teams always man Cripps at the stoppage then run off him and play wide knowing he wont go with them........he doesnt have the tank or speed to chase and in his case he gets excused like Selwood, Greg Williams etc...he is a champ at what he does well and we need him fit at every stoppage not buggered from providing some useless chase that he will never be successful at anyway.
Problem arises when that man on him at the stoppage who runs off him(may not be the same man) gets a lot of the ball or is damaging and you have to way up the pros and cons....you virtually have an opposition player unmanned for the game. Now if thats a good player like a Pendlebury/Bontempelli etc you can get into trouble....

Im not sure EB1.

Its a headache for sure, but its one we seem to be negating by simply saying to Cripps, the best way to ensure you dont get run off is to cripple them by running forward.

Its a good approach.  The bloke should have kicked about 20 odd goals from set shots inside 50 this season, but unfortunately has been as accurate as Casboult in forward 50.

Never mind.  Its a problem today where we are playing blokes that give us feck all for half a match out of 4 quarters because they arent AFL ready.

Realistically we line up with a plus one behind the ball anyway, so we should have players able to pick up his man behind the contest free to help out when required.

What we see though, is that inexperience is resulting in an inability to compete for 4 quarters, and we seem to have a plan for having the ascendency and not having the momentum in our favour which is a plus for the coach.

In fairness to Cripps, I'm not sure his efforts are any worse than those of Taylor Walker.

On second thoughts, that might not be the best example going around! ;D

An aside, I heard mentioned on radio that Cripps is as fast across the ground as Jarryd Roundhead, I'm not sure where that comes from does Antoine have a source of figures?

Maybe they have the wrong Cripps, it's possible!

If Cripps stars nailing set shots he will be close to the most damaging mid in the business.   Bugger chasing if he can add a direct offensive component to his game.   Chasing should be left to racehorses, his job is inside.

If Cripps stars nailing set shots he will be close to the most damaging mid in the business.   Bugger chasing if he can add a direct offensive component to his game.   Chasing should be left to racehorses, his job is inside.

I agree.

He has to get that part of his game sorted though, once he does( I expect him to do so ) he won't have to chase because they'll be crap scared to leave him unattended!

I think the bigger worry is the apparent lack of willingness from some of our forwards to try and pick up the slack! Cripps jogging behind the opposition I can totally accept, FFS his team-mates should chair him to the next stoppage, but four or five of the others doing that I cannot!

I was hoping the inclusion of Pickett might mask some of this, given he has speed to burn, it didn't eventuate so lets hope the result is an aberration!

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/blues-great-robert-walls-says-marc-murphy-should-remain-as-carlton-captain/news-story/216f4d512a891d10d739e5556eee3b53

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/blues-great-robert-walls-says-marc-murphy-should-remain-as-carlton-captain/news-story/216f4d512a891d10d739e5556eee3b53

Wise man or Irrelevant Old Git? Personally I tend to agree with the silly old kent.

Wise man or Irrelevant Old Git? Personally I tend to agree with the silly old kent.

Probably doesnt matter, next year will be another hard year given what we have seen this season so changing captains probably wont make much difference IMO...

Wise man or Irrelevant Old Git? Personally I tend to agree with the silly old kent.

Me too!  That's agree with Wallsy, not that I'm an Irrelevant Old Git  ;)

I reckon 2019 should be the final year of the transition to the new skipper ... and I'm not sure whether it will be Cripps, Docherty or a dark horse.  That will give Doc an opportunity to show his on field leadership although giving the job to Crippa could convince him to play out his career in Navy Blue.

I guess that there is the argument that Murphy would be under less pressure if he handed over the captaincy but I'm not convinced.

I wouldn't want to burden Cripps with so much responsibility just yet, so I get Walls' comment

I call BS.

Change is needed, use the broom!

Murphy relinquished the captaincy when he signed on the dotted line a couple of weeks ago.

Murphy relinquished the captaincy when he signed on the dotted line a couple of weeks ago.

Did he?

I must have missed that.

Either way, I think Murphy will keep the captaincy until the end of this contract, and will share it in the second year of his two year deal.

Did he?

I must have missed that.

Either way, I think Murphy will keep the captaincy until the end of this contract, and will share it in the second year of his two year deal.

Patrick Cripps will be captain in 2018.

The only question will be whether Docherty is his co captain or vice.

Patrick Cripps will be captain in 2018.

The only question will be whether Docherty is his co captain or vice.

2019, but I take your point.

2019, but I take your point.

In fact, Cripps was captain in 2018 ... so MBB is at least partly correct  ;)