Interested to know where everyone stands regarding the impending potential execution of the two leaders of the now infamous Bali 9.
I have tried to put myself in both camps....those supporting their execution and those supporting life imprisonment or a similar severe sentence and the suffering their
families are going through now and maybe after if it all takes place.
When I break it all down I see the impact those drugs might have had on other children and their families, then I am of the view that that these offenders knew the risks
and had no qualms about dealing drugs and the damage they would cause to others and I feel the Indonesians have the right to dispense justice in their own country when all the warnings were there but were ignored.
If you want to try and get rich at the expense and misery of others then you take your chances and pay the price when caught...
I wasn't aware until recently that these to were the ring leaders. In any case, doesn't change my view. Do the crime do the time. In this case, its the firing squad. They knew full well the risk and the consequences, they played Russian Roulette and lost. Sorry but no sympathy from me.
Don't support capital punishment under any circumstances. Otherwise I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.
I wasn't aware until recently that these to were the ring leaders. In any case, doesn't change my view. Do the crime do the time. In this case, its the firing squad. They knew full well the risk and the consequences, they played Russian Roulette and lost. Sorry but no sympathy from me.
Ok...you attend the firing squad and pull the trigger...
I have little sympathy for the two guys, trying to smuggle heroin in Asia when you know what the consequences are if you get caught leaves me that way.
I am not in favour of the death penalty but I'm finding it hard to feel much sympathy for Chan and Sukumaran.
I do feel for their families though. It must be terrible for them.
I wasn't aware until recently that these to were the ring leaders. In any case, doesn't change my view. Do the crime do the time. In this case, its the firing squad. They knew full well the risk and the consequences, they played Russian Roulette and lost. Sorry but no sympathy from me.
Ok...you attend the firing squad and pull the trigger...
If I was a policeman in Bali, no problem. It would be my duty if asked. I am not so its a rather stupid question. I am comfortable with the way I have been brought up and and equally comfortable with the way I have brought up my children. I am 99.99% sure that I will never have to face that the parents of these to are. My daughter is travelling OS in June. I have already started explaining the fact that cultures and rules in other countries need to be respected and followed. Laws of the land are laws of the land. Whilst we might not understand or agree with them, they are the what they are. These guys knew exactly what they were doing. Its almost like they were laughing at the law when they were trafficking drugs. Well, s h i t just got real and it aint so funny is it? They play for keeps over there, they aren't the first and won't be the last (unfortunately). Some will say thats exactly the point, there will be more hence its not a deterrent. I say it is.
It's a difficult one...The strange thing about this case is that the longer these two have avoided their fate it seems they have become quite productive and a positive influence for other prisoners.
There are genuine signs of rehabilitation and their pre-gaol lives are very different to their current mind set.
If it were up to me I'd be saying ''look at these guys'.
Use them as a positive example.
Leave them to continue what they're doing.
'Never to be released' vs 'the firing squad' are both strong deterrents and one would hardly outweigh the other in those dabbling in the drug trade.
The execution really benefits no-one.
Remember Barlow and Chambers back in the 80s and the other guy whose name I've forgotten now, a couple of years ago?
It's a difficult one...The strange thing about this case is that the longer these two have avoided their fate it seems they have become quite productive and a positive influence for other prisoners.
There are genuine signs of rehabilitation and their pre-gaol lives are very different to their current mind set.
If it were up to me I'd be saying ''look at these guys'.
Use them as a positive example.
Leave them to continue what they're doing.
'Never to be released' vs 'the firing squad' are both strong deterrents and one would hardly outweigh the other in those dabbling in the drug trade.
The execution really benefits no-one.
I suspect it's a lot more to do with domestic politics than some fervent ideology such as the war on drugs. The president is newly elected and faces stiff opposition and cannot be seen to be soft nor pushed around by Australia. If his were his second term I think they'd have a chance but with the executions that have already taken place imagine the hue and cry if they spared the Australians and executed the rest.
I am afraid the Bali 9 leaders will probably go the same way as Barlow, Chambers and Nyugen. Agree they probably have turned their lives around but if this was in Malaysia I suspect they'd have been executed some time back so I wonder if the debate is more to do with delay and how these guys have now changed versus if they'd be executed years ago there wouldn't have been the same emotion in the debate.
From an Indonesian perspective you can see how they would view this as an opportunity to demonstrate their strength in the face of international pressure and you can guarantee with the media coverage that all will know of the dangers of doing drugs in Indonesia. This will advertise a very strong message world wide.
No sympathy from me either.
They knew what they were doing and would have done it again if they got away with it.
How many young Australian lives would have been ruined when all that heroin hit the streets?
As for the deterrent bit, I don't know whether it is or not. I see it as a punishment not a deterrent .
A lot of ignorance in here. They are clearly rehabilitated.
Anyway, Mick Keelty has their blood on his hands, he effectively signed off on their death warrant. And here I was thinking capital punishment was a thing of the past in Australia. Keelty is an absolute dog of a bloke. Quite farcical that the Australian government pleas for clemency when they were the ones who sent them to their death. Not hard to see why the Australian Government has no cred in their eyes when it comes to this.
Anyway, Mick Keelty has their blood on his hands, he effectively signed off on their death warrant. And here I was thinking capital punishment was a thing of the past in Australia. Keelty is an absolute dog of a bloke. Quite farcical that the Australian government pleas for clemency when they were the ones who sent them to their death. Not hard to see why the Australian Government has no cred in their eyes when it comes to this.
The australian government didnt give them the heroin to traffick.
responsibility lies with the traffickers
Anyway, Mick Keelty has their blood on his hands, he effectively signed off on their death warrant. And here I was thinking capital punishment was a thing of the past in Australia. Keelty is an absolute dog of a bloke. Quite farcical that the Australian government pleas for clemency when they were the ones who sent them to their death. Not hard to see why the Australian Government has no cred in their eyes when it comes to this.
The australian government didnt give them the heroin to traffick.
responsibility lies with the traffickers
This
Poor form Carrots.
How is it poor form? One of the drug mules parents went to the AFP because they knew what was going to happen. Instead of stopping it Mick Keelty allows them to go over there and informs the Indonesian Government of what is going on, effectively signing their death warrant. Do we have capital punishment or not?Seems like Keelty took the law into his own hands. Keelty is a flog, the fact that he went back and plead with the government to let them come home shows that he himself understands how bad he forked up. Do you guys understand how this looks? We send them to their death and then turn around and ask the Indonesian Government to show mercy? Amateur hour in Australia. And then let's not forget the hundreds of millions of taxpayer's money we donate to the country every year. And of course they release some of the prisoners involved in the Bali Bombings. They must be laughing their heads off at us. We certainly have zero credibility in that country's eyes.
@ Carrots
Just what is your real problem with blokes called Mick? ;)
:))
I'm not sure I buy the rehabilitation angle either, if I was on death row I'd be trying to sell that impression as well...if they had got away with this crime they would
have been back for more given the money involved....
Drug dealers are serial killers under another name IMO and this was organized crime rather than a local user having to sell some stuff to get enough for his next hit....
A friend of mine works for the Federal police and he said 1 in 100 organized drug dealers get caught and thats why they play the odds......
I'm not sure I buy the rehabilitation angle either, if I was on death row I'd be trying to sell that impression as well...if they had got away with this crime they would
have been back for more given the money involved....
Drug dealers are serial killers under another name IMO and this was organized crime rather than a local user having to sell some stuff to get enough for his next hit....
A friend of mine works for the Federal police and he said 1 in 100 organized drug dealers get caught and thats why they play the odds......
Spot on EB.
Where huge $s are involved as a potential reward for breaking the law there will always be a queue of chancers willing to take the risks involved, even if it means a possible death sentence.
How is it poor form? One of the drug mules parents went to the AFP because they knew what was going to happen. Instead of stopping it Mick Keelty allows them to go over there and informs the Indonesian Government of what is going on, effectively signing their death warrant. Do we have capital punishment or not?Seems like Keelty took the law into his own hands. Keelty is a flog, the fact that he went back and plead with the government to let them come home shows that he himself understands how bad he forked up. Do you guys understand how this looks? We send them to their death and then turn around and ask the Indonesian Government to show mercy? Amateur hour in Australia. And then let's not forget the hundreds of millions of taxpayer's money we donate to the country every year. And of course they release some of the prisoners involved in the Bali Bombings. They must be laughing their heads off at us. We certainly have zero credibility in that country's eyes.
If there is one thing SE Asian governments hate its Australia telling them what to do.
This new president wants to show that he wont pander to Australian interests... perceived or otherwise.
While I think the death penalty is wrong its not our place to tell them to change the system.
I think that there may be more to the story than just a "dog act" perhaps there were international agreements in place? Perhaps this arrest was the final part of wider drug sting?
I am not a huge fan of the death penalty, but what right do we have to tell anther country what to do or how to do it.
At best we can lobby that Indonesia change their laws, provide legal council for Aussies who might need it, and possibly provide financial support if warranted, but IMO asking for clemency is out of line.
As GIC said, when going to another country we should follow and respect their laws. Break their laws, then you abide by their justice system.
I have no sympathy what so ever !!
As a frequent traveler to the land of the Gods, if you travel to/from/within Bali / Indonesia with drugs and are caught the consequences are well known. They took their chance, forced other into the scheme and were busted. Unfortunately the pair will pay the ultimate price for their poor judgement.
Anyway we're heading back in July, can't wait..
There's an article in the Courier Mail today about the Federal Police involvement in the case.
The AFP had to bring the Indonesians in because they couldn't carry out an undercover operation in a foreign country.
At that stage they didn't know Sukumaran was involved. He admits he knows who the Mr. Bigs are but refuses to tell anybody, so he's not completely rehabilitated at all.
Would you risk the safety of your family to appease the Indonesian government, who are going to kill you anyway?
I'm not sure I buy the rehabilitation angle either, if I was on death row I'd be trying to sell that impression as well...if they had got away with this crime they would
have been back for more given the money involved....
Drug dealers are serial killers under another name IMO and this was organized crime rather than a local user having to sell some stuff to get enough for his next hit....
A friend of mine works for the Federal police and he said 1 in 100 organized drug dealers get caught and thats why they play the odds......
Drug traffickers are scum whether they are Australian or not AFAIC, they broke the law in a land where the penalty for their crime is death, end of story. Rehabilitated my ass, I am sure they are thinking of the people who have OD'd on the fruit of their labour. They traffic products that make the users (and their families) lives hell. Having experienced my mates son die of an OD, thats who I think about, every day and when I hear similar news. Fork them, they are scum in my eyes and they will be punished accordingly by the laws of the land.
So what about the government that profit off taxes for alcohol and tobacco and provide a vehicle for their supply? Two of the biggest killers in the world. Death penalty for them too?
So what about the government that profit off taxes for alcohol and tobacco and provide a vehicle for their supply? Two of the biggest killers in the world. Death penalty for them too?
Alchohol and tobacco are legal, heroin is not. My father died from lung cancer after years of heavy smoking, it was his choice to consume a legal product.
I'm sorry about what happened to your father, but does that mean for you it's not about being morally right? You want them executed because they broke a law.
I'm sorry about what happened to your father, but does that mean for you it's not about being morally right? You want them executed because they broke a law.
For me its simple, its not about what I think or what you think, its about being a law abiding citizen. Break the law, any law, you pay the price. Black and white, no shades for grey. What morally right? Your opinion and mine is 180 degrees opposed therefore we can never agree. Thats where the law steps in. They have been found guilty of an offence in Bali which carries the death penalty. For me, end of argument.
People getting hands cut off for stealing bread? All fine because that's the law in some countries?
Rape victims getting stoned? No problemo because that's the law over there?
People getting hands cut off for stealing bread? All fine because that's the law in some countries?
Rape victims getting stoned? No problemo because that's the law over there?
Yep, thats the law there. You or I may or may no agree with it but thats what they believe is right, who am I to tell them they can or cant ? Its why I'm glad I live in the best country on the planet.
I'm sorry about what happened to your father, but does that mean for you it's not about being morally right? You want them executed because they broke a law.
For me its simple, its not about what I think or what you think, its about being a law abiding citizen. Break the law, any law, you pay the price. Black and white, no shades for grey. What morally right? Your opinion and mine is 180 degrees opposed therefore we can never agree. Thats where the law steps in. They have been found guilty of an offence in Bali which carries the death penalty. For me, end of argument.
I don't get how you could be so serious about upholding Indonesian law, to the point of advocating another Australian to be taken out to some island, blindfolded and shot in the chest? It's not right. It's inhumane. Anyone thinking tough titties imagine if it was your son or daughter?
Their original motives weren't exactly altruistic, and seeing first hand the damage that drugs reek on the community my sympathy for traffickers who are caught is zero.
I'm sorry about what happened to your father, but does that mean for you it's not about being morally right? You want them executed because they broke a law.
For me its simple, its not about what I think or what you think, its about being a law abiding citizen. Break the law, any law, you pay the price. Black and white, no shades for grey. What morally right? Your opinion and mine is 180 degrees opposed therefore we can never agree. Thats where the law steps in. They have been found guilty of an offence in Bali which carries the death penalty. For me, end of argument.
I don't get how you could be so serious about upholding Indonesian law, to the point of advocating another Australian to be taken out to some island, blindfolded and shot in the chest? It's not right. It's inhumane. Anyone thinking tough titties imagine if it was your son or daughter?
But I ask again, were they thinking of their families when they went over there to traffic drugs? Clearly not, they didn't give a flying fork about anyone. I feel for their family members, they are the ones suffering most. However the Indonesian Law or Government didn't put their families through this, the two lads did. Inhumane? Probably is but they knew the consequences and rolled the dice. They didn't value their own lives much given the risk they took, why should we now. You make it sound sound like I am on the steps of parliament with placards saying "Death to all Bali drug traffickers". I simply stated that I don't have any sympathy for the blokes for the reasons outline above. Lets just leave it at that.
I don't get how you could be so serious about upholding Indonesian law, to the point of advocating another Australian to be taken out to some island, blindfolded and shot in the chest? It's not right. It's inhumane. Anyone thinking tough titties imagine if it was your son or daughter?
Carrots I'm in your corner but I just thought I should highlight the "Australian" slant because it should not matter what nationality in this circumstance. As you said it's "inhumane."
I don't get how you could be so serious about upholding Indonesian law, to the point of advocating another Australian to be taken out to some island, blindfolded and shot in the chest? It's not right. It's inhumane. Anyone thinking tough titties imagine if it was your son or daughter?
Carrots I'm in your corner but I just thought I should highlight the "Australian" slant because it should not matter what nationality in this circumstance. As you said it's "inhumane."
Yep agree, morally Australians are no more human or precious than any other race or nationality - killing anyone is "inhumane". OK, killing Australians brings it closer to home for us.
I don't get how you could be so serious about upholding Indonesian law, to the point of advocating another Australian to be taken out to some island, blindfolded and shot in the chest? It's not right. It's inhumane. Anyone thinking tough titties imagine if it was your son or daughter?
Carrots I'm in your corner but I just thought I should highlight the "Australian" slant because it should not matter what nationality in this circumstance. As you said it's "inhumane."
I agree but I was going for that little bit extra to try and win G2C over. Thought it might mean a little more that way.
^
More is less?
I'm sorry about what happened to your father, but does that mean for you it's not about being morally right? You want them executed because they broke a law.
For me its simple, its not about what I think or what you think, its about being a law abiding citizen. Break the law, any law, you pay the price. Black and white, no shades for grey. What morally right? Your opinion and mine is 180 degrees opposed therefore we can never agree. Thats where the law steps in. They have been found guilty of an offence in Bali which carries the death penalty. For me, end of argument.
I don't get how you could be so serious about upholding Indonesian law, to the point of advocating another Australian to be taken out to some island, blindfolded and shot in the chest? It's not right. It's inhumane. Anyone thinking tough titties imagine if it was your son or daughter?
But I ask again, were they thinking of their families when they went over there to traffic drugs? Clearly not, they didn't give a flying fork about anyone. I feel for their family members, they are the ones suffering most. However the Indonesian Law or Government didn't put their families through this, the two lads did. Inhumane? Probably is but they knew the consequences and rolled the dice. They didn't value their own lives much given the risk they took, why should we now. You make it sound sound like I am on the steps of parliament with placards saying "Death to all Bali drug traffickers". I simply stated that I don't have any sympathy for the blokes for the reasons outline above. Lets just leave it at that.
Be honest GITC if it was your son or daughter would you honestly have the same stance? If they'd spent 9 years on death row and had fully rehabilitated would you be happy to see them cop a bullet to the head despite the law of the land? The Indonesians are hypocrites, especially as the drugs being carried by the Bali 9 were destined for Australia. Walk down any street in Kuta and you'll be offered drugs. It's a farce. This is also a country that allowed the mastermind of the Bali bombings Abu Bakar Bashir to escape unscathed from any serious conviction. I personally knew 2 people killed in Bali by Bashir's bombers and I have witnessed the suffering of their families.
I'd like to know how many drug addicts, drug users are in Indonesia and that if they think by executing a handful of traffickers every year will reduce the number?
I guess the answer is a lot, lots & lots & NO
I'd like to know how many drug addicts, drug users are in Indonesia and that if they think by executing a handful of traffickers every year will reduce the number?
I guess the answer is a lot, lots & lots & NO
A lot of drugs that are illegal here are not even outlawed there, that is the stupid thing!
For example teenage kids all over Indonesia load up on magic mushrooms and other similar "native" sources of hallucinogenics and there are no recriminations for doing so. It's a joke they often play on mates at parties, someone dumps some mushroom in somebodies drink or food.
The problem I have with the situation is that you can keep killing messengers all you like, the Mr Bigs of the the drug scene don't give a stuff, in fact that is what they want. They'll keep threatening peoples families and the drug mules will keep taking the risks to save the ones they love.
The last thing Mr Big wants is a bunch of failed drug mules informing, the best thing authorities could do is get all these drug mules on-side as a group and have them rip the Mr Bigs a new one! ;)
The Indonesians are hypocrites, especially as the drugs being carried by the Bali 9 were destined for Australia. Walk down any street in Kuta and you'll be offered drugs. It's a farce.
The hypocrisy is breathtaking... I was in Bali in 1980 and couldn't walk to the beach without being offered drugs....police all around.
Corrupt and dodgy as!
I'd like to know how many drug addicts, drug users are in Indonesia and that if they think by executing a handful of traffickers every year will reduce the number?
I guess the answer is a lot, lots & lots & NO
A lot of drugs that are illegal here are not even outlawed there, that is the stupid thing!
For example teenage kids all over Indonesia load up on magic mushrooms and other similar "native" sources of hallucinogenics and there are no recriminations for doing so. It's a joke they often play on mates at parties, someone dumps some mushroom in somebodies drink or food.
The problem I have with the situation is that you can keep killing messengers all you like, the Mr Bigs of the the drug scene don't give a stuff, in fact that is what they want. They'll keep threatening peoples families and the drug mules will keep taking the risks to save the ones they love.
The last thing Mr Big wants is a bunch of failed drug mules informing, the best thing authorities could do is get all these drug mules on-side as a group and have them rip the Mr Bigs a new one! ;)
Its true the Mr Bigs dont give a stuff about anyone else in the chain but no drug mule will inform and have himself and his family wasted because thats what will happen.
Be smart..dont become a drug mule....
So is this crackdown on foreigners part of the turf protection being put into place by Indonesian Mr. Bigs? The place is as corrupt as you can get so it wouldn't surprise me.
The situation is a mess and all I see is misery and suffering all around. The death penalty is far too harsh, but I cannot pass judgement on the actions of people.
Nor the authorities.
When going on a travel to another country, keep out of trouble and don't break any laws. Familiarise yourself with what you are getting yourself into. A day of fun can be a lifetime of misery. Is it all worth it in the end ? Not trying to be heartless here, but be warned that the short moments of fun can be years of hell. Laws don't always appear to be balanced between the locals and imports. Just stay out of trouble or stay here in Australia where you have your say in court, and the legal system has some sympathy depending on the offence. I don't wish any malice towards the people we speak of, but they have been placed in a position that will be a worst nightmare to them and all the families involved.
People, please teach your kids of what may happen when they enter a different country with different laws to what we experience here in Australia. Just get them to watch "Midnight Express". If that doesn't wake them up, nothing will. Not being a prick here intentionally but just saying be warned that when you leave the shores of Australia, you enter a world you may not wish you ever ventured into. Don't bet Tony, the leader of our government will get you a get out of jail card either. It doesn't work that way.
I can see the 'drug runner' side of the argument, but we will never be able to consider ourselves civilised while we have state-sanctioned killing. Any country can make a law that attracts capital punishment, does that make it right?
Perhaps we need to remove the incentive to import drugs and remove the criminal element altogether. While crime is involved, young people of all nationalities will continue to make mistakes and get caught. Do they deserve to die for it? Did you ever make a mistake in your early 20's ?
So is this crackdown on foreigners part of the turf protection being put into place by Indonesian Mr. Bigs? The place is as corrupt as you can get so it wouldn't surprise me.
Now you're getting it, why do the dirty work when the government will do it for you?
I'd like to know how many drug addicts, drug users are in Indonesia and that if they think by executing a handful of traffickers every year will reduce the number?
I guess the answer is a lot, lots & lots & NO
A lot of drugs that are illegal here are not even outlawed there, that is the stupid thing!
For example teenage kids all over Indonesia load up on magic mushrooms and other similar "native" sources of hallucinogenics and there are no recriminations for doing so. It's a joke they often play on mates at parties, someone dumps some mushroom in somebodies drink or food.
The problem I have with the situation is that you can keep killing messengers all you like, the Mr Bigs of the the drug scene don't give a stuff, in fact that is what they want. They'll keep threatening peoples families and the drug mules will keep taking the risks to save the ones they love.
The last thing Mr Big wants is a bunch of failed drug mules informing, the best thing authorities could do is get all these drug mules on-side as a group and have them rip the Mr Bigs a new one! ;)
Its true the Mr Bigs dont give a stuff about anyone else in the chain but no drug mule will inform and have himself and his family wasted because thats what will happen.
Be smart..dont become a drug mule....
Easy money and an "exciting" lifestyle is too big a lure for some. They need to be punished but don't deserve death like someone taking a risk by walking down a dark alley at night to get home faster doesn't deserve the crape bashed out of them for taking a clear risk.
As a country, if we can't stick up for our own when foreigners decide they're going to kill one of our citizens under circumstances we don't accept here, what other principles can we possibly stand for? Seems fundamental to me.
For the sake of clarifying the AFP's role:
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/afp-unrepentant-over-its-role-in-bali-nine-capture/story-fnq2o7dd-1227214460386
For the sake of clarifying the AFP's role:
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/afp-unrepentant-over-its-role-in-bali-nine-capture/story-fnq2o7dd-1227214460386
That was a really interesting read GIC. I must say I never knew that. Not the way I thought the whole situation would be handled. Is that a common practice with the federal police ? Looks like a bit of a handball, get the problem out of your own backyard. Strange way to handle things indeed.
For the sake of clarifying the AFP's role:
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/afp-unrepentant-over-its-role-in-bali-nine-capture/story-fnq2o7dd-1227214460386
That was a really interesting read GIC. I must say I never knew that. Not the way I thought the whole situation would be handled. Is that a common practice with the federal police ? Looks like a bit of a handball, get the problem out of your own backyard. Strange way to handle things indeed.
Federal police are quite happy to let another country do their dirty work.....its like young radical's joining IS, whey stop them?...they come out of the woodwork, you get to identify them, they end up in the firing line and the ones who make it back get nabbed...too easy.
When crims kill other crims you dont see the police crying in their beer over it unless innocents get hurt....
Been told a couple of the Saudi countries have given clemency to Indonesian nationals who have been found guilty of crimes that have the death penalty......the Indonesian government campaigned hard to save them
and owe the Saudi's big time..... an interested Aus government might have contacted those countries and done some wheeling and dealing to save the Bali 9 duo but why waste that favour on drug dealers who wont cooperate with providing more information on the Mr Bigs....
http://www.theage.com.au/national/suspected-bali-nine-mastermind-living-in-luxury-as-andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran-sit-on-death-row-20150210-13aypt.html
Well if you want to become involved in trafficking drugs this story contains useful tips on how to go about it whilst minimising the risks.
Moral of the story - Don't forget to buy your Lotto tickets! Amazing. ::)
@Elwood
These are the big wigs mate, I have no doubt the number one rule is don't dob or your family's safety is at risk. Why else would these guys have not blabbed they'd have nothing to lose.
Easy money and an "exciting" lifestyle is too big a lure for some.
That is correct in some case but not all, they usually target addicts or the family of addicts and blackmail them into being drug mules.
FWIW, ISIS allegedly also copies the drug peddlers methods. I've heard in certain cases they have allegedly threatened wealthy but naive teenagers living in Western countries that if they don't return home, fund and fight for ISIS they will slaughter the whole family.
[flash=400,300]http://youtube.com/v/SP8suYw7cB8[/flash]
While it now appears likely that the Indonesian government will execute these two men, I want to publicly declare that in protest I shall never again travel to Indonesia nor shall I donate money to any future natural disaster that may effect that country. I strongly encourage like minded people to do the same.
While it now appears likely that the Indonesian government will execute these two men, I want to publicly declare that in protest I shall never again travel to Indonesia nor shall I donate money to any future natural disaster that may effect that country. I strongly encourage like minded people to do the same.
Fair call. X 2
While it now appears likely that the Indonesian government will execute these two men, I want to publicly declare that in protest I shall never again travel to Indonesia nor shall I donate money to any future natural disaster that may effect that country. I strongly encourage like minded people to do the same.
Fair call. X 2
You both need to let the Indonesian Govt know about your boycott or your protest will be unheard and pretty pointless.
What I want to know is how Keelty can look his family (or any other Australian for the matter) in the eye with all that Aussie blood on his hands. Thought he was such a hero when he did it as well. Just a flog of a person.
Sorry, but the only way forward in these matters is to continue to engage and debate, if you disengage you basically create and opportunity that enables radical groups to take hold!
For example ISIS would not exist if the rest of the world had stayed policing trouble zones, but all the do good self-righteous types complained about the loss of life or the economic cost of war, and the retreat was called. I hope they are thinking about the loss of life and the cost of dealing with ISIS now?
Indonesia will come around as long as we all keep talking to them about it, we don't have to punish Indonesia's version of Joe Average in the interim!
Sorry, but the only way forward in these matters is to continue to engage and debate, if you disengage you basically create and opportunity that enables radical groups to take hold!
For example ISIS would not exist if the rest of the world had stayed policing trouble zones, but all the do good self-righteous types complained about the loss of life or the economic cost of war, and the retreat was called. I hope they are thinking about the loss of life and the cost of dealing with ISIS now?
Indonesia will come around as long as we all keep talking to them about it, we don't have to punish Indonesia's version of Joe Average in the interim!
You are right about ISIS they timed their run when the troops were withdrawn.....the western armies would go harder with heavier weapons but are hamstrung by civilian casualties and bad press as the result...the Taliban wont go away and either will ISIS.
Dont see Indonesia and Aus ever on the same page, religious and cultural divides will always exist....Indonesia would be our closest major military threat in the eyes of many and I dont see that changing.
While I have no sympathy for the Bali drug dealers I have no doubt the Indonesians are enjoying the game and shooting two Aussies is a bit of muscle flexing to show whose Boss to the majority christian Australian people....
@EB1
You are right about Indonesia being our primary military threat. I went to a lecture a few years ago on the defence of this country given by a senior retired military man. Guess who he indicated as our biggest military threat, and by some margin! Indonesia has a huge and well equipped military force that it is not afraid to use under the right circumstances.
@EB1
You are right about Indonesia being our primary military threat. I went to a lecture a few years ago on the defence of this country given by a senior retired military man. Guess who he indicated as our biggest military threat, and by some margin! Indonesia has a huge and well equipped military force that it is not afraid to use under the right circumstances.
They have a big military force but it is underfunded.
They have a big military force but it is underfunded.
Politically Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, The Philippines and most of the other countries on the Asian Peninsula think China is the enemy not Australia.
The ideologies of radicals and fundamentalists in those countries should not be confused with the political, social and economic will of sovereign nations!
As for the execution of "Australians" of course we oppose it, but in reality you can't play the Australia card because Indonesia has shoot just as many Europeans, Africans and Americans along the way. Beside the morality of executions in general the only other question you can really ask is about the equity of the process. Why is a convicted Indonesian crook who is the son of a wealthy family given a pass while a foreigner gets the chop? Even then in fairness to Indonesia they sacked some of the judges who made those decisions!
PS: Despite being minorities there are still more of either Christians or Buddhists in Indonesia than there are total people in Australia! ;)
Chan & Sukamaran have been moved to the execution island now, this sorry saga will end in the next day or so.
Chan & Sukamaran have been moved to the execution island now, this sorry saga will end in the next day or so.
Probably not completely....a lot of folk are holding back a bit at the moment in comments and actions.
They're still playing the diplomacy game.
If this thing goes ahead there are likely to be some repercussions, not only here but in Indonesia, that will put a bit of a strain on relations.
This whole saga is macabre and really belongs somewhere in the Middle Ages. I feel extremely sorry for their families having to watch this slowly unfolding.
Probably not completely....a lot of folk are holding back a bit at the moment in comments and actions.
They're still playing the diplomacy game.
If this thing goes ahead there are likely to be some repercussions, not only here but in Indonesia, that will put a bit of a strain on relations.
I think you be surprised by how few people really care, and how widely drugs have affected every day people and left them bitter. Out of those alleged seven trips the two completed, how many drugs were moved and how many users died? I read an article some weeks back that suggest between 3 and 10 for every trip they made, that 20 to 70 people dead from their activities.
While I do not agree with executions, I think there will be far bigger local repercussions if EFC don't get whacked! ;)
Indonesia is a third world country with a third world justice system...
While I do not agree with executions, I think there will be far bigger local repercussions if EFC don't get whacked! ;)
This example makes me laugh at all the hypocrisy on here.
There have been many posts supporting the "do the crime do the time" line on here with Essendon and I agree totally with that, I feel some sympathy for the players, who have been drilled since coming into the AFL system not to question their club, coach and other players. They were duped, but every professional athlete knows that they are responsible for what goes into their bodies.
These drug smuggling scum, that everybody is crying out about, knew what they were doing was illegal, they surely were aware that drug smuggling into Indonesia carried the death penalty, yet Australia should pull out all stops to stop them from being killed?
I HATE DRUGS, they are the scourge of society. ICE is responsible for some of the most heinous crimes out there. I was speaking to an ex forensic cleaner (the guys that clean up blood and guts after murders) and we were talking along these lines. He told me of why he quit, a "so called" father of a six year old boy was on ICE and wanted his stash that was locked in his house after his wife had locked him and his son out. He grabbed his son and threw him through the window, piercing his abdomen and spilling his intestines over the floor, cutting his neck and landed on the fire place cracking his head open. The once inside the picked up a fire poker and beat his wife to death, got his drugs and walked calmly to his friends place.
How anyone can think this poor excuse for a human being deserves to live?
These two were supplying drugs for thousands of people to potentially commit crimes as listed above.
I'm all for the death penalty for drug smugglers and suppliers, bring it in here, I know it will not effect me or my family, but crimes of the drugs probably will at some stage.
I just wonder how much money the Australian government has spent trying to convince Indonesia to change their laws because the two scumbag drug smugglers have changed their ways inside? I bet if they weren't caught they would still be supplying and destroying peoples and their families lives.
Instead of the Government wasting money on people who made their illegal choice, spend that money on education and police to stop the drug cycle.
While I do not agree with executions, I think there will be far bigger local repercussions if EFC don't get whacked! ;)
This example makes me laugh at all the hypocrisy on here.
There have been many posts supporting the "do the crime do the time" line on here with Essendon and I agree totally with that, I feel some sympathy for the players, who have been drilled since coming into the AFL system not to question their club, coach and other players. They were duped, but every professional athlete knows that they are responsible for what goes into their bodies.
These drug smuggling scum, that everybody is crying out about, knew what they were doing was illegal, they surely were aware that drug smuggling into Indonesia carried the death penalty, yet Australia should pull out all stops to stop them from being killed?
I HATE DRUGS, they are the scourge of society. ICE is responsible for some of the most heinous crimes out there. I was speaking to an ex forensic cleaner (the guys that clean up blood and guts after murders) and we were talking along these lines. He told me of why he quit, a "so called" father of a six year old boy was on ICE and wanted his stash that was locked in his house after his wife had locked him and his son out. He grabbed his son and threw him through the window, piercing his abdomen and spilling his intestines over the floor, cutting his neck and landed on the fire place cracking his head open. The once inside the picked up a fire poker and beat his wife to death, got his drugs and walked calmly to his friends place.
How anyone can think this poor excuse for a human being deserves to live?
These two were supplying drugs for thousands of people to potentially commit crimes as listed above.
I'm all for the death penalty for drug smugglers and suppliers, bring it in here, I know it will not effect me or my family, but crimes of the drugs probably will at some stage.
I just wonder how much money the Australian government has spent trying to convince Indonesia to change their laws because the two scumbag drug smugglers have changed their ways inside? I bet if they weren't caught they would still be supplying and destroying peoples and their families lives.
Instead of the Government wasting money on people who made their illegal choice, spend that money on education and police to stop the drug cycle.
Someone wont be a popular boy on this site.
Someone wont be a popular boy on this site.
It's all fine by me, I can't wait for them to pull the trigger and end this circus.
I'd also like to see our Govt. withdraw the $500mill in aid they give to Indonesia every year and channel it into our health & social services systems too !!
Someone wont be a popular boy on this site.
It's all fine by me, I can't wait for them to pull the trigger and end this circus.
I'd also like to see our Govt. withdraw the $500mill in aid they give to Indonesia every year and channel it into our health & social services systems too !!
I totally disagree with them being murdered for doing stupid things when they were young, by a country so riddled in corruption - I read the other week that some big kingpin of a drug syndicate over there was miraculously freed... Just makes no sense, well the $$$$ that was handed over does I suppose.
There's no way the decision will be reversed now, the Indo public would not stand for it.
So while people cheer on the myrder of two reformed Aussies, I'll also be asking that aid be kept in Australia rather than sent to this corrupt nation.
Not just murder, some people live for another 6-7 minutes. What a terrible way to die. Why not just shoot them in the back of the head so it's at least quick and painless. Inhumane bastards.
The death penalty is barbaric IMO - OK with putting 'em in jail for life and trying to get something useful out of them as punishment for the harm they've done. If that were done everyone would have forgotten about them by now - as it is they will go down in history as martyrs.
Not just murder, some people live for another 6-7 minutes. What a terrible way to die. Why not just shoot them in the back of the head so it's at least quick and painless. Inhumane bastards.
Yep
Even if you believe these folk deserve to die the method of execution is totally out of line for this day and age.
Reports of what it feels like range from being hit in the chest with a baseball bat to a searing, agonising pain.
Obviously the longer between the initial shot and the loss of consciousness the greater the suffering.
So they wait on the ground in agony for the head of the firing squad to deliver the final shot.
No wonder folks soil themselves in the lead up to it.
By allowing them these years to reflect on their crimes and then after all their to efforts to exhibit signs of change to then follow through with these executions at this time strikes me as pretty pointless....contrary to popular opinion the world will not be a better place without them. From all reports they have had a positive influence on a number of folk and it won't make one iota of difference to folk attempting to transport drugs.
If you believe they should be punished, beyond the punishment of life in prison, here's the thing.
If they want to kill them, If they must kill them....put them to sleep and stop their heart.
Any other method belongs to darker age.
Not just murder, some people live for another 6-7 minutes. What a terrible way to die. Why not just shoot them in the back of the head so it's at least quick and painless. Inhumane bastards.
Yep
Even if you believe these folk deserve to die the method of execution is totally out of line for this day and age.
I think the method is more about preserving the mental health of the shooters.
Not just murder, some people live for another 6-7 minutes. What a terrible way to die. Why not just shoot them in the back of the head so it's at least quick and painless. Inhumane bastards.
Yep
Even if you believe these folk deserve to die the method of execution is totally out of line for this day and age.
Reports of what it feels like range from being hit in the chest with a baseball bat to a searing, agonising pain.
Obviously the longer between the initial shot and the loss of consciousness the greater the suffering.
So they wait on the ground in agony for the head of the firing squad to deliver the final shot.
No wonder folks soil themselves in the lead up to it.
By allowing them these years to reflect on their crimes and then after all their to efforts to exhibit signs of change to then follow through with these executions at this time strikes me as pretty pointless....contrary to popular opinion the world will not be a better place without them. From all reports they have had a positive influence on a number of folk and it won't make one iota of difference to folk attempting to transport drugs.
If you believe they should be punished, beyond the punishment of life in prison, here's the thing.
If they want to kill them, If they must kill them....put them to sleep and stop their heart.
Any other method belongs to darker age.
I agree, while I have no sympathy for drug dealers, I would prefer they die by lethal injection rather than a firing squad where there is a high chance of painful suffering before death which isnt right.
my sources tell me that one was truly rehabilitated, the other not so
Before I risk sounding heartless, let me begin with my opening statement. Even though some may see the drug trafficking issues of this world, take lives of many users. Yes its choice to take drugs. Nobody holds a gun to peoples heads. However, some countries have strategies to deal with these issues in their country.
I do not agree that taking a life of a criminal dealing in drugs as being the right thing. Murder and rape sometimes has a lesser consequence. I don't think the two Australians should be shot for their involvement with the illegal drug industry. I believe there are better ways to deal with them in this circumstance.
Midnight Express and Return to paradise , are two movies all Australians should watch. Even children as young as 12 years of age. People need to understand how other countries deal with drug issues. Especially the Asian countries (not being racist here but stating fact based on my knowledge). People need to learn from an early age that there are consequences for your actions. Consequences that no solicitor of any kind can help you with. No money on this planet will change your fate. No government of the world can change their system, or help their people if they get into trouble.
In fact interfering in any case, can actually make things worse. Watch the movie Return to paradise to see an example of trying to use media to help a cause, that actually makes a situation worse. When you question their laws, you insult their government and make things worse for those imprisoned. Especially the media as they humiliate the government on a global scale. In a way their government uses prisoners in their country imprisoned for drug trafficking as an example to the entire world. This is what happens once you enter their borders and break our laws.
I feel sorry for the two Australians that are about to be executed. I feel even more sorry for their families. Especially the families that have tried to do everything they can with no success.
People, please, please, please, do not enter another country and break their laws. If you do, you must live with the consequences handed out to you. Plain and simple. Otherwise stay home and break the same laws here. Your likely to serve a few years on good behaviour and get out to live the rest of your life. Maybe write a book and make some money too.
Its a very sad situation, but what were they thinking at the time ? I don't agree with the situation, but understand that in the future this will happen all over again. Especially considering they are executing 11 people all together at the same time. That is just unheard of.
Those that agree with the death penalty are seriously misguided fools....
This won't be a popular opinion and I don't necessarily wish death on them because frankly I disagree with killing people for the sake of it, but I am so over hearing about this issue that I can't wait till its done so we can move on.
These guys made a massive gamble/error and lost. It was only recently prior to these guys being caught that Van Nguyen was sisimilarly dealt with so it's not like these guys didn't know the consequences of their actions if they got caught.
If a drug mule was under threat of violence for an unpaid debt , death penalties are not an immediate concern ....
there are backgrounds and history at play ...its never simple...
And look at the way Indonesia have behaved in the last few days, showing the world how it will be done. Poor, pathetic idiots, clueless imbeciles, it gives an insight into how these people think.
And look at the way Indonesia have behaved in the last few days, showing the world how it will be done. Poor, pathetic idiots, clueless imbeciles, it gives an insight into how these people think.
Whilst I agree with you on the above, I just hope that potential drug trafficers will look at this "muscle flexing" and think "these prix mean business" and deter them from making the same mistake. I doubt it but one can only hope.
If Australia and Indonesia are serious about the war on drugs, they would give the families of the guilty asylum, and those found guilty protection and life in prison in return for evidence against the Mr Bigs!
Killing the nobodies actually removes evidence against the Mr Bigs!
Maybe that says more about some in high office in Indonesia and Australia! :o
And look at the way Indonesia have behaved in the last few days, showing the world how it will be done. Poor, pathetic idiots, clueless imbeciles, it gives an insight into how these people think.
Did you see the photos they were taking on the plane to death island? They love all this attention we're giving them.
Did you see the photos they were taking on the plane to death island? They love all this attention we're giving them.
There is no reason to expect the Indonesian media has any higher morality than our own! ;)
Also, you have to keep in mind that many elected to office in Indonesia come out of the military, paramilitary or police. When they get their face on TV it is a bonus, regardless of the circumstances!
I'm trying to find the pic on the net that I saw on tv. The guard was smiling for a selfie.
And look at the way Indonesia have behaved in the last few days, showing the world how it will be done. Poor, pathetic idiots, clueless imbeciles, it gives an insight into how these people think.
Whilst I agree with you on the above, I just hope that potential drug trafficers will look at this "muscle flexing" and think "these prix mean business" and deter them from making the same mistake. I doubt it but one can only hope.
Good luck with that :P
If Australia and Indonesia are serious about the war on drugs, they would give the families of the guilty asylum, and those found guilty protection and life in prison in return for evidence against the Mr Bigs!
Even more good luck with that!
Drug Dealers= Serial Killers= Terrorists = Merchants of Death........if your child was on the receiving end of the Bali 9 products you might not be so
enthused about their welfare. If they were not caught they would still be killing other peoples children...how are they different from a serial killer or a terrorist?
Drug Dealers= Serial Killers= Terrorists = Merchants of Death
=Tying someone up to a pole and putting bullets in them.
I don't care what happens to the two but do we really need this macho show?
Drug Dealers= Serial Killers= Terrorists = Merchants of Death
=Tying someone up to a pole and putting bullets in them.
I don't care what happens to the two but do we really need this macho show?
They are making a show of it. ::)
With all the security it looks like the Indonesians are expecting an SAS rescue raid.
I'm trying to find the pic on the net that I saw on tv. The guard was smiling for a selfie.
In fairness to the Indonesian soldiers, they are probably taught to shoot but not to read!
Drug Dealers= Serial Killers= Terrorists = Merchants of Death........if your child was on the receiving end of the Bali 9 products you might not be so
enthused about their welfare. If they were not caught they would still be killing other peoples children...how are they different from a serial killer or a terrorist?
Alcohol and cigarettes kill more people than all other drugs combined. How are the government and legalized 'suppliers', both beneficiaries of profit any different from a serial killer or terrorist? Seriously. Just like with alcohol and cigarettes when it comes to drugs, people make a choice.
@Raydan
I just read your post, I ask you the same question. Also Ray, they were dealing heroin, not a drug associated with violence. It's quite ironic that you use the word 'hypocrisy'. I'm sure you love a beer, a drug that IS associated with all sorts of violence whether it be domestic or not.
Drug Dealers= Serial Killers= Terrorists = Merchants of Death........if your child was on the receiving end of the Bali 9 products you might not be so
enthused about their welfare. If they were not caught they would still be killing other peoples children...how are they different from a serial killer or a terrorist?
^^ This.
These blokes are serial offenders.
There are currently 17 people in Asian prisons for drug trafficking that were recruited by Andrew Chan.
2 of the Bali 9 have admitted they did 2 trips for Chan before this last one.
If you believe all this rehabilitation stuff you probably believe in Leprechauns.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Mary+Jane+Fiesta+Veloso&hl=en&gl=au&authuser=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=1sX3VN_cC4ai8QWCsoAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=595#imgdii=_&imgrc=t6c9IkMBbRSlkM%253A%3BMB8JVEXSYsUfXM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thejakartapost.com%252Ffiles%252Fimages2%252F150303%252520wire%252520ktr%252520031.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thejakartapost.com%252Fnews%252F2015%252F03%252F03%252Fno-mercy.html%3B512%3B376
Check the photo of Filipino Mary Jane will be lined up for a bullet, alongside our boys.
Our Press don't mourn the others facing the firing squad.
Does the Press get vicarious pleasure from leading us step by step through to rifles crack?
(http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2015/03/05/1227249/309026-b01ef884-c2d8-11e4-a0d8-62fd782d4449.jpg)
Oh dear God.
Our Press don't mourn the others facing the firing squad.
Does the Press get vicarious pleasure from leading us step by step through to rifles crack?
I'm 100% in agreement with you.
I was thinking the same very thing last night and again this morning while listening to "Eddie Everywhere" and his offsider "The Hair Sniffer" do their AM radio spot. I thought I might ring up and ask them to list a few of the other Internationals shot in Indonesia over the last few years. I heard someone comment as such to Bolt, I suspect Bolt is now busily studying a list of Internationals executed by Indonesia just in case he is asked the question live!
Where was their protest on those occasions?
It's just more proof to me it is all about ratings for them, if James Hird comes out and states he is thinking about the pair it must be the start of the reckoning! ;)
Oh dear God.
They've turned it into a circus ::)
It's all about the show now.
Oh dear God.
They've turned it into a circus ::)
It's all about the show now.
It's obscene and I think some people that were nonplussed about what's happening, will have a look at this revolting display of the Indo's and start to think very negatively about them indeed.
The Indo's might be enjoying the spectacle but I honestly can't see how anyone can continue cheering this one - if they are fair dinkum about cracking down on drugs they would stop accepting bribes from the big guys that get caught and pay their way out of it.
Indonesia is setting itself up to become a global pariah. And that will impact on it economically in many respects. Already folks are putting a line through Bali/Indonesia as a holiday destination.
I still find it incredible that one of the key figures in the murder of over 200 people (Bali bombing) walks from prison after 20 months.
My wife flatly has refused to travel to Asia in general because it doesn't sit well with her, but was happy to travel to Fiji during a military coup.
That's a perfect example right there.
My wife and I put a line through those Asian countries a long time ago because of what goes on there. They're basically out to get Australians any way they can. Blokes will offer you all sorts of stuff along the street and they're trying to set you up to get busted. That's the mentality over there. Pass.
I have never been to Indonesia and I have no plans to ever to go there. Went to Penang (Georgetown) a couple of years ago and enjoyed that - very non-tourist.
It will be interesting to see how much the Oz Govt gives up to help Abbott get a rise in the polls.
Right now I suspect the Indonesians are extending this because it makes it look like we have some influence over their decisions.
Probably end up letting them murder a couple of hundred West Papuans for a political victory at home.
The way the Indonesians are playing it now I don't think anyone can pick what they'll do.
They've got everyone's attention ::) and with all that attention it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have a last minute change of heart.
On the other hand they're just as likely to suddenly bring it on.
They may have put a deal to the Aus government, probably one heavily favouring themselves, possibly involving assylum seekers??
They may have put a deal to the Aus government, probably one heavily favouring themselves, possibly involving assylum seekers??
Asylum seekers.
Fishing rights.
Oil and Gas rights
Live Cattle
Other farming
Tax Breaks
Military aid
The list of possibilities is endless.
The problem for us is, no matter how noble the cause, the Indonesians are holding all the cards.
They have a popular new leader, they have a well known position on drug smugglers and they have the guys.
We have a very unpopular leader fighting for his political life and no power so we have to try inducements.
If these guys are released Tony will have sold all our arses in one way or the other so he can keep his job.
The problem is though that it's not just the two Australians.
There are a number of citizen's of other countries involved.
That probably counts against a deal of some type.
They can hardly go easy on one group and not the other.
Having said that... Who knows just what the current thinking is at the higher levels
http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/03/07/15/32/indonesian-president-open-to-abolishing-the-death-penalty
They may have put a deal to the Aus government, probably one heavily favouring themselves, possibly involving assylum seekers??
I reckon they are hanging out for a better deal than just the prisoner swap that was offered.......they must want something big in return and
know Aus have offered their lowest price first. Wodo has do a big deal though because he cant lose face with the Indo public and appear weak.
While I am not supportive of the Bali 9 duo its not right either that are being played as a pair of chess board pieces in a game of politics while
two at odds Governments try and score points against each other..
From the perspective of an old friend from the Clifton Hotel days Celia. She posted this on facebook this morning.
Fifteen years ago my brother died of a heroin overdose. His is not the only funeral I've been to of someone that has died at the hands of heroin. I've seen mothers crying, fathers pained, siblings distraught, friends speechless because the life of someone they love has been ripped away. Do I blame people like Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan for these deaths? NO!!
Do the Sukumaran and Chan family have to go through this? Haven't they been through enough?
Andrew and Myuran made a desperate and stupid decision as did my bother and many others who wind up in the grip of heroin addiction. You don't just wake up one day and decide to smuggle drugs! A series of events has to take place in a persons life to lead them down a path of darkness.
These guys have turned their lives around and made a difference in the lives of others.They can't change their past and neither can you. Have you ever made a mistake?
You may not have done something as stupid as these guys but you also haven't lived the life that took them to the place where they made such a decision! If you are judging them, stop it!
I'm not saying people don't need consequences for their actions. It's the only way any of us learn! But COMPASSION for human beings in all facets of life is the only way. I stand for mercy. #istandformercy
Similar sentiments expressed in this Age article
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/bali-nine-execution-drug-death-victims-sister-says-you-dont-speak-for-me-20150219-13jmtw.html
From the perspective of an old friend from the Clifton Hotel days Celia. She posted this on facebook this morning.
Fifteen years ago my brother died of a heroin overdose. His is not the only funeral I've been to of someone that has died at the hands of heroin. I've seen mothers crying, fathers pained, siblings distraught, friends speechless because the life of someone they love has been ripped away. Do I blame people like Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan for these deaths? NO!!
Do the Sukumaran and Chan family have to go through this? Haven't they been through enough?
Andrew and Myuran made a desperate and stupid decision as did my bother and many others who wind up in the grip of heroin addiction. You don't just wake up one day and decide to smuggle drugs! A series of events has to take place in a persons life to lead them down a path of darkness.
These guys have turned their lives around and made a difference in the lives of others.They can't change their past and neither can you. Have you ever made a mistake?
You may not have done something as stupid as these guys but you also haven't lived the life that took them to the place where they made such a decision! If you are judging them, stop it!
I'm not saying people don't need consequences for their actions. It's the only way any of us learn! But COMPASSION for human beings in all facets of life is the only way. I stand for mercy. #istandformercy
Great post Carrots. Thanks for sharing.
From the perspective of an old friend from the Clifton Hotel days Celia. She posted this on facebook this morning.
Fifteen years ago my brother died of a heroin overdose. His is not the only funeral I've been to of someone that has died at the hands of heroin. I've seen mothers crying, fathers pained, siblings distraught, friends speechless because the life of someone they love has been ripped away. Do I blame people like Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan for these deaths? NO!!
Do the Sukumaran and Chan family have to go through this? Haven't they been through enough?
Andrew and Myuran made a desperate and stupid decision as did my bother and many others who wind up in the grip of heroin addiction. You don't just wake up one day and decide to smuggle drugs! A series of events has to take place in a persons life to lead them down a path of darkness.
These guys have turned their lives around and made a difference in the lives of others.They can't change their past and neither can you. Have you ever made a mistake?
You may not have done something as stupid as these guys but you also haven't lived the life that took them to the place where they made such a decision! If you are judging them, stop it!
I'm not saying people don't need consequences for their actions. It's the only way any of us learn! But COMPASSION for human beings in all facets of life is the only way. I stand for mercy. #istandformercy
Really, really impressive.
Just when you have gathered up enough reasons to argue strongly against the death penalty, you have an incident like last night in Doncaster or Jill Maher and you find yourself having second thoughts. (Especially when you see the photo of the 'alleged' in the papers.)
Just when you have gathered up enough reasons to argue strongly against the death penalty, you have an incident like last night in Doncaster or Jill Maher and you find yourself having second thoughts. (Especially when you see the photo of the 'alleged' in the papers.)
All I can say is you must treat each case on it's own!
I don't think anyone's arguing about strong punishments for offenders.
It's more the death penalty that some of us draw the line at....and the rather barbaric method of execution
While life in an Indonesian prison might look a bit cushy from the outside it remains a restrictive environment with quite a few perils.
I doubt Schapelle Corby came out of there in a better mental state than when she went in.
Just when you have gathered up enough reasons to argue strongly against the death penalty, you have an incident like last night in Doncaster or Jill Maher and you find yourself having second thoughts. (Especially when you see the photo of the 'alleged' in the papers.)
For the cases mentioned above, I am all for lethal injection. That is all I will say on the matter.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2004-10-12/man-sent-to-psychiatric-hospital-over-sex-crimes/567212
Fork this, nuffs enuff!
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2004-10-12/man-sent-to-psychiatric-hospital-over-sex-crimes/567212
Fork this, nuffs enuff!
Here is the problem.
There is going to be an outcry, politicians will threaten new laws, individuals will lose some liberty, and the crimes will continue!
The actions of lawyers and politicians mean nothing, they are worthless. Rational and law abiding citizens follow the rules, irrational individuals, lunatics and fundamentalists who commit the crimes don't, and the laws are irrelevant to them regardless of whether they are genius or illiterates.
Perhaps this girl is dead, certainly some are dead or injured, because an earlier government significantly cut or privatized mental health returning hundreds of mentally unstable individuals into society just to balance the budget. This must be ironic given that some individuals involved in the era champion mental health, but it has come at a great cost!
The nice people in Kew, Hawthorn, Doncaster, Toorak and South Yarra voted to balance the budget rather than bear the full cost of caring for damaged individuals who were not going to live in their area anyway. But this nuuter traveled 40kms to kill that nice girl from Doncaster, perhaps the nice people should have built a fence? I'm sure those wealthy individuals won't be building an apartment, flat or unit in their backyard to house a damaged individual despite having plenty of space and income to do so! Instead they can move them into a cheap flat in some distant suburb where they won't be a threat to any of the nice people! ;)
Notice that at the moment family violence continues to increase, despite more intervention orders being issued than every before, courts getting tougher with more pieces of paper does nothing. Pieces of paper don't stop bullets, knives or a fist. What does a mentally ill individual or fundamentalist radical care about a piece of paper, they laugh at your laws or are ignorant of them!
Reality is, if good well resourced people ignore these events or leave the actions to under-resourced others bad things will continue to happen! Considered actions are required, not more documents, not more rules, not more spending cuts!
Don't forget it next time you consider a vote on economic grounds, when the referendum arrives to protect a damaged fetus from abortion or when you are asked to defend the rights of a minority think hard!
Perhaps Sean Christian Price can go to confession and be absolved of his sins! :o
Here ends the rant!
Perhaps this girl is dead
There is no perhaps, her father had to witness here bloodied body on the ground in a park. And I will tell you what the problem is, us. All the tree hugging do gooders will march on the steps of parliament to save a tree, a frog thats having its habitat threatened by a new estate or stop a toll road being built. But two woman going about their business get hacked to death by kents that shouldnt have been on the streets and we (all of us) do nothing. I say Victoria should grind to halt next week and every man, woman and child march onto the steps of parliament and demand immediate change.
@LP
Mental health has a fairly substantial budget spend in both the health services I have worked in over the past 7 years (particularly in comparison to the rest of public health spending), so this point is ill informed and ill conceived.
The issue with spending in health, is two fold.
1. You can never have enough money to spend on health (everywhere).
2. Better use of funding is never the objective when it comes to managing money in public health. Often its a budget set at the beginning of financial year, and a strict adherence to get as close as possible to that spending level, without exceeding it, in order to justify why that funding is needed AGAIN the following budgetary year.
Moral of the story, when you work many years in public sector, the talk of cost centres, money juggling, in order to make numbers from a finance perspective look prettier, can sometimes mean spending more, or the same amount, but cutting funding to certain avenues of spending in order to satisfy political arguments.
I have a couple of examples to explain this phenomenon.
1. My wife is currently working at the "responsible gambling" foundation, working on a new project to deliver solutions to people struggling with gambling addiction issues. Whilst these issues and the organisations she is frequenting fall into the mental health category of problem, the funding for her project falls under the Department of Justice. Why? There was more funding there (if you can recall there has been more money spent on "police and public safety" due to government policy) and a lot of problem gamblers would turn to crime to deal with their issues so they justify placing this avenue in DOJ as working against victims of crime. Net gain, we spend less on health, but more on safety. In both departments, its business as usual with the same money spent (if not more) to re establish the realms of responsibility, or even having more people employed to do similar jobs in both Health and Justice department. Sounds crazy to me, but they will justify the funding model accordingly.
2. A family member of mine is currently undertaking a PHD. This is funded by the tertiary institution, and whilst this family member is studying they qualify for centrelink payments. They are in the finance sector proffesionally and are overqualified to do many of the mundane tasks so said family member cannot pick up work all that easily. Recently, Centrelink have put forward a bunch of their "dependants" to work for the ATO in part time work. So this family member is about to get employed by the Australian tax office, in order to work, 12-20 hours a week in a customer service role in a call centre, to earn roughly the same amount of money they were earning from centrelink. On some level, this iniative will mean that managers will need to be hired to oversee this, and their workforce will be expanded. This would probably result in paying the people less at the Centrelink office (they are part time workers) but still getting a benefit, and moving them from unemployed to other realms of centrelink funding. Now, think about the implications of this. It means getting lower unemployment figures (if this is being performed), lower welfare payment figures from centrelink, but a swell in public sector employment in roles that may or may not be required. Its done to satisfy a political arugment and it may genuinely fill a hole in a service that the ATO supplies, but odds are its not as the candidates who were all screened along with my brother all seemed to come from Centrelink, meaning that they are actively looking for centrelink candidates.
The important thing here is to think HARD about what we are trying to achieve. I heard about Portugal decriminalising the use of drugs, and turning it from a justice issue to a health issue, and decreased the satistics on crime. Great, but are they real world savings or political spending savings? If they are the latter, then the issues remain as they were, but everyone feels better about them with nothing being achieved. THAT is what we need to avoid. We need to genuinely make a difference here, and not simply piss into the wind and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy without actually achieving anything.
Perhaps this girl is dead
There is no perhaps, her father had to witness here bloodied body on the ground in a park. And I will tell you what the problem is, us. All the tree hugging do gooders will march on the steps of parliament to save a tree, a frog thats having its habitat threatened by a new estate or stop a toll road being built. But two woman going about their business get hacked to death by kents that shouldnt have been on the streets and we (all of us) do nothing. I say Victoria should grind to halt next week and every man, woman and child march onto the steps of parliament and demand immediate change.
Firstly don't verbal me when you quote, this isn't "The Hun" and our site is not owned and run by News Ltd. If you are going to quote someone do it properly;
Perhaps this girl is dead, certainly some are dead or injured, because an earlier government significantly cut or privatized mental health returning hundreds of mentally unstable individuals into society just to balance the budget.
Secondly, I'd support your request for a protest or other affirmative action if I thought the participants were genuine, but in reality a large proportion of the people rolling up are doing it to get a day of work or school rather than having any genuine interest in the cause. They live in a bubble. I know it sounds cynical, but that term is just an adjective used by those making the excuse to defend their indifference!
Finally, despite any action all it will do is cause the creation of more laws, more rules, more fines, more pieces of paper that law abiding citizens and rational individuals obey and it will do nothing to stop the events of the past days, weeks or years. You can wave your new piece of paper, but bullets and knives will pass right through it and into your heart!
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2004-10-12/man-sent-to-psychiatric-hospital-over-sex-crimes/567212
Fork this, nuffs enuff!
Here is the problem.
There is going to be an outcry, politicians will threaten new laws, individuals will lose some liberty, and the crimes will continue!
The actions of lawyers and politicians mean nothing, they are worthless. Rational and law abiding citizens follow the rules, irrational individuals, lunatics and fundamentalists who commit the crimes don't, and the laws are irrelevant to them regardless of whether they are genius or illiterates.
Perhaps this girl is dead, certainly some are dead or injured, because an earlier government significantly cut or privatized mental health returning hundreds of mentally unstable individuals into society just to balance the budget. This must be ironic given that some individuals involved in the era champion mental health, but it has come at a great cost!
The nice people in Kew, Hawthorn, Doncaster, Toorak and South Yarra voted to balance the budget rather than bear the full cost of caring for damaged individuals who were not going to live in their area anyway. But this nuuter traveled 40kms to kill that nice girl from Doncaster, perhaps the nice people should have built a fence? I'm sure those wealthy individuals won't be building an apartment, flat or unit in their backyard to house a damaged individual despite having plenty of space and income to do so! Instead they can move them into a cheap flat in some distant suburb where they won't be a threat to any of the nice people! ;)
Notice that at the moment family violence continues to increase, despite more intervention orders being issued than every before, courts getting tougher with more pieces of paper does nothing. Pieces of paper don't stop bullets, knives or a fist. What does a mentally ill individual or fundamentalist radical care about a piece of paper, they laugh at your laws or are ignorant of them!
Reality is, if good well resourced people ignore these events or leave the actions to under-resourced others bad things will continue to happen! Considered actions are required, not more documents, not more rules, not more spending cuts!
Don't forget it next time you consider a vote on economic grounds, when the referendum arrives to protect a damaged fetus from abortion or when you are asked to defend the rights of a minority think hard!
Perhaps Sean Christian Price can go to confession and be absolved of his sins! :o
Here ends the rant!
Just watch yourself LP...I live in Doncaster/Templestowe and not everyone including me is well resourced or votes Liberal ;) Plenty of criminal activity out our way like anywhere else, ...that lunatic Sean Price needs a bullet not precious resources wasted on mental health care.
@LP
Mental health has a fairly substantial budget spend in both the health services I have worked in over the past 7 years (particularly in comparison to the rest of public health spending), so this point is ill informed and ill conceived.
I'm well aware of the creative accounting that goes on between the health department and the justice department to deliver favorable figures to governemnt. You rightly state that health funding and mental health funding is up, but this is creative accounting. When you close accommodation and beds, move patients into the community and leave dealing with them to police you can claim the health budget is controlled and you are spend more on fighting crime. That issue has been well covered in other threads on this site before and is not genuinely relevant to the current situation because it is just shuffling numbers on books. You see the figures flip subject to who has political power.
I understand GTCs protest, but in reality it will lead to more laws and perhaps even more funding, more wasted money but if history repeats little benefit.
The truth is plain, the lawyers, judges, do-gooders and mental health specialists have no answer for the likes of Sean Christian Price. Where was his managed accommodation, who was watching over him?
How do you address these issues without creating a state of anarchy?
Just watch yourself LP...I live in Doncaster/Templestowe and not everyone including me is well resourced or votes Liberal ;) Plenty of criminal activity out our way like anywhere else, ...that lunatic Sean Price needs a bullet not precious resources wasted on mental health care.
Noted EB1, I just wanted to highlight the futility of this First World Problem and the ridiculous solutions being offered. I am being deliberately provocative in my stereotypes, and I continue,
Struggling people are losing their life everyday, yet they don't get the front page of the papers, most pass without notice. The well-to-do are coming out of the woodwork asking for change, changes to be funded by the little people through taxes, fines and legalities. In the meantime they keep ordering bigger gates, issue more writs, hire more lawyers, install more cameras and donate to more political parties thinking it will keep them safe! Yet they may rush away from the first sign of real trouble. I think they may as well piss their money up against the wall! Perhaps they would be better off funding some community event instead of buying a new imported car or latest home cinema every few years!
As for the feminists hijacking this latest event, what relevance is their claim really? Violence against females is up as they tout, but so is violence against men. Too many women are being killed, but twice as many men die in similar circumstances. In this case the feminist hijackers are doing a real disservice to the community because it will be money wasted as this is a human issue not a case of sexism!
When that police officer came out and offered his honest opinion about what women should do to stay safe, nobody in the media thanked him for his honest and I think good practical advice, instead the civil libertarians crucified him. They forget the crazy individuals committing these crimes care nothing for their paper rights!
@LP
Mental health has a fairly substantial budget spend in both the health services I have worked in over the past 7 years (particularly in comparison to the rest of public health spending), so this point is ill informed and ill conceived.
I'm well aware of the creative accounting that goes on between the health department and the justice department to deliver favorable figures to governemnt. You rightly state that health funding and mental health funding is up, but this is creative accounting. When you close accommodation and beds, move patients into the community and leave dealing with them to police you can claim the health budget is controlled and you are spend more on fighting crime. That issue has been well covered in other threads on this site before and is not genuinely relevant to the current situation because it is just shuffling numbers on books. You see the figures flip subject to who has political power.
I understand GTCs protest, but in reality it will lead to more laws and perhaps even more funding, more wasted money but if history repeats little benefit.
The truth is plain, the lawyers, judges, do-gooders and mental health specialists have no answer for the likes of Sean Christian Price. Where was his managed accommodation, who was watching over him?
How do you address these issues without creating a state of anarchy?
Nope, thats false.
The only departments that have money to spend in HEALTH is mental health. The rest are all running on the usual.
This is ON TOP of the DOJ funding.
Nope, thats false.
The only departments that have money to spend in HEALTH is mental health. The rest are all running on the usual.
This is ON TOP of the DOJ funding.
I understand, you work in health and have no answer for people like Price either, so it looks like we will debate the budget and not the issue of how people like him with a substantial track record end up living in a block of flats and preying on those helpless soft targets!
You can write more cheques as well, they don't stop bullets or knives either!