Bali 9 thoughts

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Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #120 – March 19, 2015, 05:00:03 pm

Just when you have gathered up enough reasons to argue strongly against the death penalty, you have an incident like last night in Doncaster or Jill Maher and you find yourself having second thoughts. (Especially when you see the photo of the 'alleged' in the papers.)

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #121 – March 19, 2015, 05:12:05 pm

Quote from: townsendcalling on March 19, 2015, 05:00:03 pm

Just when you have gathered up enough reasons to argue strongly against the death penalty, you have an incident like last night in Doncaster or Jill Maher and you find yourself having second thoughts. (Especially when you see the photo of the 'alleged' in the papers.)

All I can say is you must treat each case on it's own!

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #122 – March 19, 2015, 06:18:22 pm

I don't think anyone's arguing about strong punishments for offenders.
It's more the death penalty that some of us draw the line at....and the rather barbaric method of execution

While life in an Indonesian prison might look a bit cushy from the outside it remains a restrictive environment with quite a few perils.
I doubt Schapelle Corby came out of there in a better mental state than when she went in.

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #123 – March 19, 2015, 07:53:25 pm

Quote from: townsendcalling on March 19, 2015, 05:00:03 pm

Just when you have gathered up enough reasons to argue strongly against the death penalty, you have an incident like last night in Doncaster or Jill Maher and you find yourself having second thoughts. (Especially when you see the photo of the 'alleged' in the papers.)

For the cases mentioned above, I am all for lethal injection. That is all I will say on the matter.

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #124 – March 20, 2015, 08:12:35 am

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2004-10-12/man-sent-to-psychiatric-hospital-over-sex-crimes/567212

Fork this, nuffs enuff!

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #125 – March 20, 2015, 10:07:14 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on March 20, 2015, 08:12:35 am

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2004-10-12/man-sent-to-psychiatric-hospital-over-sex-crimes/567212

Fork this, nuffs enuff!

Here is the problem.

There is going to be an outcry, politicians will threaten new laws, individuals will lose some liberty, and the crimes will continue!

The actions of lawyers and politicians mean nothing, they are worthless. Rational and law abiding citizens follow the rules, irrational individuals, lunatics and fundamentalists who commit the crimes don't, and the laws are irrelevant to them regardless of whether they are genius or illiterates.

Perhaps this girl is dead, certainly some are dead or injured, because an earlier government significantly cut or privatized mental health returning hundreds of mentally unstable individuals into society just to balance the budget. This must be ironic given that some individuals involved in the era champion mental health, but it has come at a great cost!

The nice people in Kew, Hawthorn, Doncaster, Toorak and South Yarra voted to balance the budget rather than bear the full cost of caring for damaged individuals who were not going to live in their area anyway. But this nuuter traveled 40kms to kill that nice girl from Doncaster, perhaps the nice people should have built a fence? I'm sure those wealthy individuals won't be building an apartment, flat or unit in their backyard to house a damaged individual despite having plenty of space and income to do so! Instead they can move them into a cheap flat in some distant suburb where they won't be a threat to any of the nice people!

Notice that at the moment family violence continues to increase, despite more intervention orders being issued than every before, courts getting tougher with more pieces of paper does nothing. Pieces of paper don't stop bullets, knives or a fist. What does a mentally ill individual or fundamentalist radical care about a piece of paper, they laugh at your laws or are ignorant of them!

Reality is, if good well resourced people ignore these events or leave the actions to under-resourced others bad things will continue to happen! Considered actions are required, not more documents, not more rules, not more spending cuts!

Don't forget it next time you consider a vote on economic grounds, when the referendum arrives to protect a damaged fetus from abortion or when you are asked to defend the rights of a minority think hard!

Perhaps Sean Christian Price can go to confession and be absolved of his sins!

Here ends the rant!

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #126 – March 20, 2015, 10:46:43 am

Quote from: LP on March 20, 2015, 10:07:14 am

Perhaps this girl is dead

There is no perhaps, her father had to witness here bloodied body on the ground in a park. And I will tell you what the problem is, us. All the tree hugging do gooders will march on the steps of parliament to save a tree, a frog thats having its habitat threatened by a new estate or stop a toll road being built. But two woman going about their business get hacked to death by kents that shouldnt have been on the streets and we (all of us) do nothing. I say Victoria should grind to halt next week and every man, woman and child march onto the steps of parliament and demand immediate change.

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #127 – March 20, 2015, 11:15:32 am

@LP

Mental health has a fairly substantial budget spend in both the health services I have worked in over the past 7 years (particularly in comparison to the rest of public health spending), so this point is ill informed and ill conceived.

The issue with spending in health, is two fold.

1. You can never have enough money to spend on health (everywhere).

2. Better use of funding is never the objective when it comes to managing money in public health. Often its a budget set at the beginning of financial year, and a strict adherence to get as close as possible to that spending level, without exceeding it, in order to justify why that funding is needed AGAIN the following budgetary year.

Moral of the story, when you work many years in public sector, the talk of cost centres, money juggling, in order to make numbers from a finance perspective look prettier, can sometimes mean spending more, or the same amount, but cutting funding to certain avenues of spending in order to satisfy political arguments.

I have a couple of examples to explain this phenomenon.

1. My wife is currently working at the "responsible gambling" foundation, working on a new project to deliver solutions to people struggling with gambling addiction issues. Whilst these issues and the organisations she is frequenting fall into the mental health category of problem, the funding for her project falls under the Department of Justice. Why? There was more funding there (if you can recall there has been more money spent on "police and public safety" due to government policy) and a lot of problem gamblers would turn to crime to deal with their issues so they justify placing this avenue in DOJ as working against victims of crime. Net gain, we spend less on health, but more on safety. In both departments, its business as usual with the same money spent (if not more) to re establish the realms of responsibility, or even having more people employed to do similar jobs in both Health and Justice department. Sounds crazy to me, but they will justify the funding model accordingly.

2. A family member of mine is currently undertaking a PHD. This is funded by the tertiary institution, and whilst this family member is studying they qualify for centrelink payments. They are in the finance sector proffesionally and are overqualified to do many of the mundane tasks so said family member cannot pick up work all that easily. Recently, Centrelink have put forward a bunch of their "dependants" to work for the ATO in part time work. So this family member is about to get employed by the Australian tax office, in order to work, 12-20 hours a week in a customer service role in a call centre, to earn roughly the same amount of money they were earning from centrelink. On some level, this iniative will mean that managers will need to be hired to oversee this, and their workforce will be expanded. This would probably result in paying the people less at the Centrelink office (they are part time workers) but still getting a benefit, and moving them from unemployed to other realms of centrelink funding. Now, think about the implications of this. It means getting lower unemployment figures (if this is being performed), lower welfare payment figures from centrelink, but a swell in public sector employment in roles that may or may not be required. Its done to satisfy a political arugment and it may genuinely fill a hole in a service that the ATO supplies, but odds are its not as the candidates who were all screened along with my brother all seemed to come from Centrelink, meaning that they are actively looking for centrelink candidates.

The important thing here is to think HARD about what we are trying to achieve. I heard about Portugal decriminalising the use of drugs, and turning it from a justice issue to a health issue, and decreased the satistics on crime. Great, but are they real world savings or political spending savings? If they are the latter, then the issues remain as they were, but everyone feels better about them with nothing being achieved. THAT is what we need to avoid. We need to genuinely make a difference here, and not simply piss into the wind and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy without actually achieving anything.

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #128 – March 20, 2015, 11:38:46 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on March 20, 2015, 10:46:43 am

Quote from: LP on March 20, 2015, 10:07:14 am
Perhaps this girl is dead
There is no perhaps, her father had to witness here bloodied body on the ground in a park. And I will tell you what the problem is, us. All the tree hugging do gooders will march on the steps of parliament to save a tree, a frog thats having its habitat threatened by a new estate or stop a toll road being built. But two woman going about their business get hacked to death by kents that shouldnt have been on the streets and we (all of us) do nothing. I say Victoria should grind to halt next week and every man, woman and child march onto the steps of parliament and demand immediate change.

Firstly don't verbal me when you quote, this isn't "The Hun" and our site is not owned and run by News Ltd. If you are going to quote someone do it properly;

Quote

Perhaps this girl is dead, certainly some are dead or injured, because an earlier government significantly cut or privatized mental health returning hundreds of mentally unstable individuals into society just to balance the budget.

Secondly, I'd support your request for a protest or other affirmative action if I thought the participants were genuine, but in reality a large proportion of the people rolling up are doing it to get a day of work or school rather than having any genuine interest in the cause. They live in a bubble. I know it sounds cynical, but that term is just an adjective used by those making the excuse to defend their indifference!

Finally, despite any action all it will do is cause the creation of more laws, more rules, more fines, more pieces of paper that law abiding citizens and rational individuals obey and it will do nothing to stop the events of the past days, weeks or years. You can wave your new piece of paper, but bullets and knives will pass right through it and into your heart!

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #129 – March 20, 2015, 11:41:16 am

Quote from: LP on March 20, 2015, 10:07:14 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton on March 20, 2015, 08:12:35 am
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2004-10-12/man-sent-to-psychiatric-hospital-over-sex-crimes/567212

Fork this, nuffs enuff!

Here is the problem.

There is going to be an outcry, politicians will threaten new laws, individuals will lose some liberty, and the crimes will continue!

The actions of lawyers and politicians mean nothing, they are worthless. Rational and law abiding citizens follow the rules, irrational individuals, lunatics and fundamentalists who commit the crimes don't, and the laws are irrelevant to them regardless of whether they are genius or illiterates.

Perhaps this girl is dead, certainly some are dead or injured, because an earlier government significantly cut or privatized mental health returning hundreds of mentally unstable individuals into society just to balance the budget. This must be ironic given that some individuals involved in the era champion mental health, but it has come at a great cost!

The nice people in Kew, Hawthorn, Doncaster, Toorak and South Yarra voted to balance the budget rather than bear the full cost of caring for damaged individuals who were not going to live in their area anyway. But this nuuter traveled 40kms to kill that nice girl from Doncaster, perhaps the nice people should have built a fence? I'm sure those wealthy individuals won't be building an apartment, flat or unit in their backyard to house a damaged individual despite having plenty of space and income to do so! Instead they can move them into a cheap flat in some distant suburb where they won't be a threat to any of the nice people!

Notice that at the moment family violence continues to increase, despite more intervention orders being issued than every before, courts getting tougher with more pieces of paper does nothing. Pieces of paper don't stop bullets, knives or a fist. What does a mentally ill individual or fundamentalist radical care about a piece of paper, they laugh at your laws or are ignorant of them!

Reality is, if good well resourced people ignore these events or leave the actions to under-resourced others bad things will continue to happen! Considered actions are required, not more documents, not more rules, not more spending cuts!

Don't forget it next time you consider a vote on economic grounds, when the referendum arrives to protect a damaged fetus from abortion or when you are asked to defend the rights of a minority think hard!

Perhaps Sean Christian Price can go to confession and be absolved of his sins!

Here ends the rant!

Just watch yourself LP...I live in Doncaster/Templestowe and not everyone including me is well resourced or votes Liberal

Plenty of criminal activity out our way like anywhere else, ...that lunatic Sean Price needs a bullet not precious resources wasted on mental health care.

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #130 – March 20, 2015, 11:49:06 am

Quote from: Thryleon on March 20, 2015, 11:15:32 am

@LP

Mental health has a fairly substantial budget spend in both the health services I have worked in over the past 7 years (particularly in comparison to the rest of public health spending), so this point is ill informed and ill conceived.

I'm well aware of the creative accounting that goes on between the health department and the justice department to deliver favorable figures to governemnt. You rightly state that health funding and mental health funding is up, but this is creative accounting. When you close accommodation and beds, move patients into the community and leave dealing with them to police you can claim the health budget is controlled and you are spend more on fighting crime. That issue has been well covered in other threads on this site before and is not genuinely relevant to the current situation because it is just shuffling numbers on books. You see the figures flip subject to who has political power.

I understand GTCs protest, but in reality it will lead to more laws and perhaps even more funding, more wasted money but if history repeats little benefit.

The truth is plain, the lawyers, judges, do-gooders and mental health specialists have no answer for the likes of Sean Christian Price. Where was his managed accommodation, who was watching over him?

How do you address these issues without creating a state of anarchy?

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #131 – March 20, 2015, 12:04:09 pm

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on March 20, 2015, 11:41:16 am

Just watch yourself LP...I live in Doncaster/Templestowe and not everyone including me is well resourced or votes Liberal Plenty of criminal activity out our way like anywhere else, ...that lunatic Sean Price needs a bullet not precious resources wasted on mental health care.

Noted EB1, I just wanted to highlight the futility of this First World Problem and the ridiculous solutions being offered. I am being deliberately provocative in my stereotypes, and I continue,

Struggling people are losing their life everyday, yet they don't get the front page of the papers, most pass without notice. The well-to-do are coming out of the woodwork asking for change, changes to be funded by the little people through taxes, fines and legalities. In the meantime they keep ordering bigger gates, issue more writs, hire more lawyers, install more cameras and donate to more political parties thinking it will keep them safe! Yet they may rush away from the first sign of real trouble. I think they may as well piss their money up against the wall! Perhaps they would be better off funding some community event instead of buying a new imported car or latest home cinema every few years!

As for the feminists hijacking this latest event, what relevance is their claim really? Violence against females is up as they tout, but so is violence against men. Too many women are being killed, but twice as many men die in similar circumstances. In this case the feminist hijackers are doing a real disservice to the community because it will be money wasted as this is a human issue not a case of sexism!

When that police officer came out and offered his honest opinion about what women should do to stay safe, nobody in the media thanked him for his honest and I think good practical advice, instead the civil libertarians crucified him. They forget the crazy individuals committing these crimes care nothing for their paper rights!

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #132 – March 20, 2015, 04:44:03 pm

Quote from: LP on March 20, 2015, 11:49:06 am

Quote from: Thryleon on March 20, 2015, 11:15:32 am
@LP

Mental health has a fairly substantial budget spend in both the health services I have worked in over the past 7 years (particularly in comparison to the rest of public health spending), so this point is ill informed and ill conceived.

I'm well aware of the creative accounting that goes on between the health department and the justice department to deliver favorable figures to governemnt. You rightly state that health funding and mental health funding is up, but this is creative accounting. When you close accommodation and beds, move patients into the community and leave dealing with them to police you can claim the health budget is controlled and you are spend more on fighting crime. That issue has been well covered in other threads on this site before and is not genuinely relevant to the current situation because it is just shuffling numbers on books. You see the figures flip subject to who has political power.

I understand GTCs protest, but in reality it will lead to more laws and perhaps even more funding, more wasted money but if history repeats little benefit.

The truth is plain, the lawyers, judges, do-gooders and mental health specialists have no answer for the likes of Sean Christian Price. Where was his managed accommodation, who was watching over him?

How do you address these issues without creating a state of anarchy?

Nope, thats false.

The only departments that have money to spend in HEALTH is mental health. The rest are all running on the usual.

This is ON TOP of the DOJ funding.

Re: Bali 9 thoughts

Reply #133 – March 20, 2015, 08:25:45 pm

Quote from: Thryleon on March 20, 2015, 04:44:03 pm

Nope, thats false.

The only departments that have money to spend in HEALTH is mental health. The rest are all running on the usual.

This is ON TOP of the DOJ funding.

I understand, you work in health and have no answer for people like Price either, so it looks like we will debate the budget and not the issue of how people like him with a substantial track record end up living in a block of flats and preying on those helpless soft targets!

You can write more cheques as well, they don't stop bullets or knives either!